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Gifted and Talented Programs - Should Your Child Attend One? · Other Peoples Parenting

• 0:00
  Hello, everyone.
• 0:01
  Welcome back to another episode of Other People's Parenting where we read parenting books and review them for you.
• 0:07
  I'm Skylar Hurwitz, amateur parent, and this is my mom, Karen Quinn, New York Times best selling author and founder of Habit Coach and Testing Mom.
• 0:17
  I feel like I was just doing like opening the actor studio inside the Actors Studio.
• 0:22
  Do you feel that is kind of the way you just did that?
• 0:25
  Yeah.
• 0:26
  Hello?
• 0:27
  Yeah, you sounded like.
• 0:28
  What was his name?
• 0:29
  I don't know.
• 0:29
  But I loved him.
• 0:30
  I loved him and I used to love the.
• 0:32
  The actor's studio when he was inside the actor.
• 0:36
  Who was inside the actor studio?
• 0:38
  Well, I'd have to google it.
• 0:39
  We're gonna feel so stupid when we google it.
• 0:41
  And they're like, oh, obviously that's who it is.
• 0:43
  Yeah, he was great.
• 0:44
  He was.
• 0:45
  I used to love that show.
• 0:46
  And he would interview those actors and then I remember the last question he always asked.
• 0:52
  When you stand before the pearly gates, what are you gonna say?
• 0:56
  Say, you know, but I remember he.
• 0:59
  That was a good show.
• 1:00
  Yeah.
• 1:00
  What are you gonna say when you stand before the pearly gates?
• 1:03
  Oh, my God.
• 1:03
  I'm gonna say, why?
• 1:06
  Why?
• 1:07
  I miss my children too soon you're gonna be like 300 years old.
• 1:14
  Well, I don't know.
• 1:15
  I'm just saying I won't be prepared.
• 1:17
  You know, one ever is.
• 1:18
  No, I'm gonna be.
• 1:19
  I.
• 1:20
  I want to be with my children and my husband and my grandchildren,.
• 1:24
  You know, and Mondo and my dog.
• 1:28
  Well, anyway, we're covering a topic as opposed to a book as we sometimes are want to do.
• 1:35
  Because you know what, guys?
• 1:37
  Sometimes we go rogue.
• 1:38
  Sometimes we do what we want.
• 1:40
  And today is one of those days.
• 1:41
  Well, you know what it is?
• 1:43
  It's like we couldn't find.
• 1:44
  We were going to do a book about giftedness.
• 1:46
  We were going to review a book about giftedness.
• 1:49
  But they're just.
• 1:50
  I don't know, they're just.
• 1:51
  The books about giftedness are.
• 1:54
  I don't.
• 1:54
  They aren't that interesting.
• 1:55
  I don't think so.
• 1:57
  We found some articles about giftedness that I think allow us to sort of jump off and talk about it.
• 2:04
  Yeah.
• 2:04
  Which is a good topic.
• 2:05
  Yeah.
• 2:06
  Because apparently the concept of giftedness is now being challenged.
• 2:10
  It's considered controversial when up until recently it was just sort of like, oh,.
• 2:14
  Yeah, gifted programs, of course.
• 2:17
  Well.
• 2:17
  And all of us know that our children are gifted.
• 2:20
  All of us, we all believe, like, don't you think your daughter is gifted?
• 2:23
  I don't think it.
• 2:24
  I know It.
• 2:24
  That's how I felt when I had a baby.
• 2:26
  You were my first, and I was sure you were gifted.
• 2:30
  And I remember when you took the test to get into Hunter College elementary, which is a program for gifted kids in New York City.
• 2:38
  A great one, a great program.
• 2:40
  And I got your score, and you were average in the scores, unimpressive.
• 2:46
  And I didn't know anything about reading an iq, you know, a test score.
• 2:51
  I knew nothing.
• 2:53
  And I just saw you were right in the middle of that, you know, 50 percentile.
• 2:57
  And I'm like, what, my very average child?
• 3:01
  Yeah, well, I'm twice exceptional, as we've discussed before, which meant I did incredibly well on the verbal part, but.
• 3:08
  Right.
• 3:08
  But I didn't poorly on the.
• 3:10
  I did not understand that.
• 3:12
  You know what I'm saying?
• 3:12
  And they didn't tell you that.
• 3:14
  All they did is say 50%.
• 3:16
  And I'm like, that's impossible.
• 3:17
  Yeah.
• 3:18
  And one.
• 3:18
  Not hilarious.
• 3:19
  But one crazy thing about gifted programs is that every single mayor that comes in in New York becomes like rabidly obsessed with them and decides that they are the worst thing about the city when it's like, I don't
• 3:31
  know, man.
• 3:31
  Have you been on the subway recently?
• 3:33
  Well, yeah, I mean, they do.
• 3:35
  This is New York City, and that always is.
• 3:38
  There are lots of terrible things here, lots of wonderful things, but.
• 3:41
  Right.
• 3:42
  You know, but yeah, but mayors do come in and.
• 3:44
  And they either want to make it better or they want to take it away.
• 3:47
  Yeah, one of the two.
• 3:49
  Yeah.
• 3:50
  But anyway, so we're going to talk about giftedness, some articles about gift.
• 3:56
  And Tina, as a person who has worked with around adjacent to near gifted kids for the last 20 something years, do you think it's real?
• 4:05
  Oh, yeah, for sure.
• 4:06
  I think.
• 4:07
  Oh, absolutely.
• 4:08
  I'm a total believer.
• 4:10
  But it's complicated.
• 4:12
  It's just complicated.
• 4:13
  Yeah, I mean, I believe that.
• 4:14
  And we'll talk about this.
• 4:16
  As far as you're concerned, what is the definition of a gifted child?
• 4:20
  Well, it's.
• 4:23
  As I said, it's complicated.
• 4:25
  There's giftedness for school.
• 4:27
  There's kids who are gifted when it comes to school topics and learning, and they have high IQs, which means they're capable of.
• 4:38
  Of learning at a faster and higher level maybe than the rest of us are.
• 4:44
  And this is like nature or nurture or both.
• 4:49
  I think it's probably more you're born with it, but you can also.
• 4:54
  You're born with it to a certain extent, but that you can help it along.
• 4:59
  I believe that.
• 5:00
  But it's also, there's that type of giftedness.
• 5:04
  But there are many other types of giftedness that aren't school giftedness.
• 5:09
  There's giftedness around the arts, there's giftedness, athletic giftedness, and there's actually theories.
• 5:17
  This man named Howard Gardner has a whole theory around other types of giftedness.
• 5:23
  But so there's lots of types of giftedness.
• 5:26
  Is there one that you think is probably the most useful way to be gifted?
• 5:31
  Well.
• 5:32
  Oh, you're asking me all these questions I hadn't even thought about.
• 5:35
  Call me Barbara Walters hitting you with the hard stuff.
• 5:38
  Just don't make me cry.
• 5:39
  Oh, my God, when you were three?
• 5:43
  No.
• 5:44
  Well, look, I think that some kids just learn faster and pick things up more easily and they just, they need, they need to be in programs where they can learn at a quicker pace, they can go deeper, they
• 5:59
  can.
• 6:00
  You know, there are children like that.
• 6:02
  And so I absolutely believe that.
• 6:06
  I also believe there's.
• 6:07
  If you look at the gifted programs across the country, they're not necessarily looking for geniuses.
• 6:13
  They're looking for super bright kids who can learn faster and need to be learning at a different pace than other kids.
• 6:22
  Yeah.
• 6:22
  So I'm a total believer that there should be those kinds of programs in school.
• 6:28
  That said, none of my kids belonged in a program like that.
• 6:33
  I mean, I.
• 6:34
  Different gifts.
• 6:35
  Neither did I.
• 6:36
  I didn't belong in a program like that.
• 6:38
  But there are kids might have.
• 6:40
  Yeah, he probably did belong in a program like that.
• 6:42
  He was.
• 6:43
  He's very academic.
• 6:45
  But he's also like, when you meet him, he would never know it.
• 6:48
  No, you wouldn't.
• 6:49
  But he picks things up so, so fast and makes all those connections.
• 6:53
  So there are people like that and they maybe deserve and need to be taught differently.
• 6:59
  And so that's, you know, so.
• 7:01
  Yes, and I know a lot about this now because I've been.
• 7:05
  I started this company, Testing mom, and we help kids get ready for tests for gifted and talented programs.
• 7:11
  And it's only.
• 7:12
  Do parents come to you and be like, my kid is gifted.
• 7:15
  And then you have to break the news.
• 7:17
  Well, not so much because if they believe their child is gifted, then we try to help them find specifically how get the test.
• 7:26
  Let's test them.
• 7:27
  Let's see.
• 7:29
  But I mean, like, if the results come in, it turns out that they're not your kids.
• 7:32
  A dud.
• 7:33
  Well, kid's not a dud.
• 7:35
  You're not a dud if you don't test well on an IQ test.
• 7:40
  That's not true.
• 7:41
  But I mean, a Lot of times people are shocked like I was, you know, and what I'll say if they come to me and go, oh, my God, the score was not good.
• 7:49
  Let's look at.
• 7:50
  I want to see the specific scores because usually what I can do is tell them, okay, so look, they're in the 99th percentile when it comes to verbal, but here in visual spatial reasoning, they're much, you know, it's
• 8:04
  much lower.
• 8:05
  So let's try to get to the bottom of it.
• 8:07
  And I can give them resources where they can try to figure out what's going on.
• 8:12
  Yeah.
• 8:12
  And people are often shocked and surprised that they, like I was with you, you know, that their kids.
• 8:19
  I just seemed so smart.
• 8:20
  Because you are.
• 8:22
  And you.
• 8:23
  And you were totally gifted in one area, which is verbal.
• 8:27
  You are.
• 8:28
  You are very.
• 8:29
  Your scores are off the charts there, but they are not in other areas.
• 8:34
  And just like me, like counting.
• 8:36
  Like what?
• 8:37
  Counting, Counting.
• 8:38
  No, you're a good counter.
• 8:39
  But you're.
• 8:40
  I can do.
• 8:41
  I have a very strong affinity for very quick large number addition.
• 8:46
  Yeah, but that's just because I worked in a nightclub and I was constantly checking the computer's math and adding tips.
• 8:53
  You were always good at that, even as a young child.
• 8:55
  Why'd you send me to Kumon?
• 8:57
  Well, I want you to get better.
• 9:00
  I don't know.
• 9:02
  I tortured you with Kumon.
• 9:03
  Yeah, but anything, anything that the Chinese kids in my class were doing, my mom's like, skylar should do that too.
• 9:10
  It must be good.
• 9:11
  If they're doing it, we should do it.
• 9:12
  Yeah, but anyway, no, I'm a total believer in kids are gifted all in different ways.
• 9:21
  It's not just school giftedness.
• 9:23
  That's one kind of giftedness, but there's other kinds of giftedness.
• 9:26
  It takes all types to make a world.
• 9:28
  That's right.
• 9:28
  That is the truth.
• 9:29
  I will tell you.
• 9:30
  I don't know if.
• 9:31
  Did I ever tell you?
• 9:32
  Maybe I did the story about my mom was having me tested when I was to see actually if I could start school early because my birthday was in December, right before the cutoff.
• 9:42
  So I went in for an IQ test and they thought I was gifted.
• 9:47
  I mean, because I was so cute.
• 9:48
  You were so cute.
• 9:50
  You were so cute.
• 9:51
  You were flashed when you were in news newspaper girl.
• 9:54
  That wasn't because I was cute.
• 9:57
  That was because that man was a pervert.
• 9:58
  Yeah, that was different.
• 10:00
  But.
• 10:01
  But I.
• 10:02
  I did go in for an IQ test and I re.
• 10:05
  I remember I had no idea, which is part of the problem of testing why they test kids very young to get into gifted programs, which I think is kind of a mistake.
• 10:16
  But they tested me very young to get into, to get into school.
• 10:21
  And, and when I went in, the tester looked at me and she said, oh my gosh, she is so cute.
• 10:28
  So cute.
• 10:29
  And so I spent the rest of the time while she was giving me the questions, just trying to be as cute as I could, answering all the questions, not the point of the test, which wasn't the point of
• 10:43
  the test.
• 10:43
  And I was just like, how cute can I be?
• 10:47
  How adorable can I be in answering all these questions?
• 10:49
  Anyway, I did terrible on the test they decided to hold.
• 10:54
  So that actually brings an important point from one of these articles.
• 10:56
  This was the point from all these articles that stuck out to me the most.
• 10:59
  There was this one kid who had been tested and put into a gifted program and he truly believed he was gifted.
• 11:05
  It was like a big part of his identity.
• 11:07
  And he spoke about how when there were times that he was struggling or needed help, he was scared to ask for it because he's like, I'm gifted, I should know this.
• 11:17
  And it reminded me of Carol Dweck.
• 11:19
  Yes, we love Carol Dweck mindset.
• 11:23
  And she talks.
• 11:24
  Her whole philosophy is really about, you know, the things we tell ourselves and each other can become self fulfilling prophecies.
• 11:33
  And if you think you are so smart that you don't, you shouldn't have to ever ask for help.
• 11:38
  It will prevent you from being curious.
• 11:41
  And curiosity is, first of all, the people's talent.
• 11:45
  Anybody can be curious.
• 11:46
  You don't have to be born that way.
• 11:47
  That's a choice.
• 11:48
  But it is one of the highest markers of intelligence of somebody who hits obstacles, hits boundaries and says, you know what, I'm gonna keep pushing.
• 11:56
  And I don't really care if I look silly doing so.
• 11:59
  Right.
• 11:59
  But I am so curious and determined that I'm gonna keep going.
• 12:04
  Right.
• 12:05
  Well, that.
• 12:05
  Well, we'll get to that article when we talk about it.
• 12:08
  But I felt kind of the same thing.
• 12:11
  I saw that same, that same connection when he said or I think it might have been a she, but it was the author of the article, I think.
• 12:19
  Anyway, when they, they did say that they wouldn't ask for help in math because they thought, I'm gifted, I should know this.
• 12:28
  Yeah, there's like an embarrassment, right?
• 12:30
  But I think what that tells you is that if you do have a child who is gifted, first of all, ideally, especially when they're young, you don't want to tell them that.
• 12:40
  You don't want to use that terminology.
• 12:44
  You know, that's just not.
• 12:46
  You don't want that to be part of anyone's identity.
• 12:48
  It gives them the wrong idea.
• 12:50
  It gives them this idea that they should be beyond needing help and making mistakes.
• 12:55
  And nobody should be taught that.
• 12:58
  No, it's too high and rigid a standard.
• 13:01
  Right.
• 13:01
  Like you.
• 13:02
  You could just say you're a.
• 13:03
  You're a special learner or, you know, come up with something they use at one of the programs.
• 13:09
  They call it an advanced.
• 13:11
  You're an advanced learner.
• 13:12
  I feel like this is the same thing, though.
• 13:14
  Kids know what advanced means.
• 13:16
  You have to explain to them.
• 13:18
  You.
• 13:18
  You have capacities in some areas to be really.
• 13:22
  To catch on to things really quickly.
• 13:24
  But not every area.
• 13:25
  Y.
• 13:26
  So not everything's going to be easy for you.
• 13:28
  You have to explain that to the kid.
• 13:30
  Yeah, but.
• 13:32
  And being a beginner is fun.
• 13:33
  It's.
• 13:33
  And not knowing everything is fun.
• 13:36
  Well, there's freedom in that.
• 13:37
  Give them the experience of learning something new that they've never been able.
• 13:41
  You know, learn to play piano where you're going to mess up.
• 13:44
  Yeah.
• 13:45
  Because you don't know what you're doing.
• 13:46
  Totally.
• 13:47
  So give them that experience early in their life.
• 13:49
  Maybe.
• 13:50
  So they don't think everything should come easy to me.
• 13:53
  Yes, exactly.
• 13:54
  Yeah, but that was.
• 13:55
  That was interesting in that.
• 13:57
  That article.
• 13:57
  Well, why don't we talk about the first article?
• 14:01
  Oh, okay.
• 14:01
  Well, the first one is something called the Mirage of the Gifted Child.
• 14:07
  Ooh, The Mirage by Katie Arnold Batliff.
• 14:11
  And that's in.
• 14:12
  This one is in.
• 14:12
  From New York magazine.
• 14:14
  Yeah, the only magazine I subscribe to.
• 14:16
  Oh, really?
• 14:17
  The only one.
• 14:17
  Okay.
• 14:18
  And, you know, it's super annoying if you're out there and paying attention.
• 14:21
  Subscription department, for whatever reason, they can never deliver it to my house.
• 14:24
  So I then have to go seek it out either at the d' Agostino's or at this one little magazine storefront.
• 14:30
  Means nothing.
• 14:30
  It means nothing.
• 14:31
  It means nothing.
• 14:32
  Well, so you should.
• 14:33
  But I read it every week.
• 14:34
  Yeah, I like it.
• 14:36
  They do have good articles.
• 14:38
  And the subhead of this article is.
• 14:40
  Critics say the process we use to identify bright kids is flawed and insular.
• 14:45
  But what if giftedness itself is a lie?
• 14:48
  Okay, so she talks about.
• 14:52
  Her name is.
• 14:53
  Yeah, Katie Arnold Batliff.
• 14:55
  She talks about how being gifted and smart has been woven into her life since she was 4.
• 15:00
  That when she was in third grade, she was tested and invited to attend a school for really smart kids, and she loved it.
• 15:09
  She loved it.
• 15:10
  She said in grades four to six, she had the most amazing education, full of discovery, creativity and magic.
• 15:18
  She made paper mache dioramas of the fruit in James and the Giant peach.
• 15:23
  Wasn't that it?
• 15:26
  Participated in debates and camping trips.
• 15:28
  They read the New Yorker at school.
• 15:31
  She just followed her curiosity everywhere.
• 15:33
  These were the most invigorating, magical years of her life.
• 15:37
  So then she goes on to write this article where, spoiler alert, she kind of tries to poo poo the whole idea of giftedness, even though it was the best part of her life.
• 15:50
  But okay, but okay, girl.
• 15:51
  All right, okay.
• 15:53
  So she tells.
• 15:54
  So she starts talking about this how for nearly a century, you know, parents across America have known that the first step in a child's academic journey is try to get them into a gifted and talented program where they
• 16:05
  can get a stimulating, confidence building education.
• 16:09
  And this sort of puts them on the right path to honors classes, AP classes, getting into a good college.
• 16:16
  But if you make that first wrong step, your child is doomed.
• 16:20
  I did that.
• 16:21
  I.
• 16:22
  Yeah, I blew the test.
• 16:24
  Yeah, so did I.
• 16:25
  And you did.
• 16:25
  Well, listen, look at us now.
• 16:26
  We have a podcast teen.
• 16:28
  That's right, we have a podcast.
• 16:30
  That's right.
• 16:30
  We're podcasters.
• 16:32
  Right.
• 16:32
  We did not fail.
• 16:34
  We did not fail.
• 16:35
  You also have a business.
• 16:36
  Well, yeah, but.
• 16:37
  So, you know, anyway, that too.
• 16:40
  Okay.
• 16:41
  So one of the things that a big thing that I think really bothers her, and this is very.
• 16:46
  This is very bothersome, and it comes up in one of the other articles too, is that G and T has a race inequity problem, that as of 2022, at least in New York City, 60% of the kids enrolled
• 16:59
  in gifted programs are white, even though they make up 40% of the public school population.
• 17:05
  So she talks about how the dismal stats for New York City gifted programs were just a tiny percent of the non white students get into these programs, even though they do make up a larger percentage of.
• 17:19
  Of.
• 17:19
  Is it a population subjective process.
• 17:22
  Well, it.
• 17:23
  This is what it is in New York now.
• 17:27
  It used to be you took a test, okay, and that's what determined who got in.
• 17:33
  And it was just black and white.
• 17:36
  You know, you made a certain, like an IQ test.
• 17:39
  It was like an I.
• 17:40
  It was called an abilities test that you would take and you would get.
• 17:45
  You would either make a score and there were not enough spots.
• 17:49
  So the kids who qualified based on their score, then there was a lottery to get them in, but they all had high scores.
• 17:56
  Okay, now what it Is they changed it.
• 17:59
  De Blasio changed it in the name of trying to make.
• 18:03
  Get more equity.
• 18:04
  Changed it.
• 18:05
  And.
• 18:05
  But it's worse now because now, and actually we get into this now, it's like the parent can nominate their child or a teacher can.
• 18:19
  It's very subjective.
• 18:21
  So you get nominated.
• 18:22
  And again, there's too many kids applying.
• 18:24
  And you still have to test.
• 18:25
  But there's no test.
• 18:26
  Oh, there's no test.
• 18:27
  There's no test.
• 18:27
  So you really, in my opinion, you can't even call it a gifted program.
• 18:31
  I see.
• 18:31
  So the selection process, it's very simple.
• 18:34
  There's no gating, no real gating.
• 18:37
  Other cities around the country do test.
• 18:40
  Yes.
• 18:40
  Okay.
• 18:40
  In my personal opinion, that's the way to do it because at least it's fair for everyone.
• 18:45
  Okay.
• 18:46
  And I remember said it's objective.
• 18:48
  Well, it's objective.
• 18:50
  I mean, I can more objective.
• 18:51
  More objective than just, you know, what do you think?
• 18:57
  There's, there's many reasons why it's opinion is just not the way.
• 19:02
  Okay.
• 19:02
  To choose these kids.
• 19:05
  So.
• 19:06
  Okay, so the new mayor says he's planning to possibly reshape or eliminate.
• 19:12
  GT even though he himself went to Bronx Science, which is kind of a gifted program.
• 19:22
  It's an advanced program.
• 19:23
  Okay.
• 19:24
  As well as de Blasio, when he took away testing, didn't he go to like Brooklyn Tech?
• 19:28
  He went to one of the big, you know, it's like.
• 19:30
  And his children did.
• 19:32
  And that's when they get rid of.
• 19:33
  It later, as soon as they no.
• 19:35
  Longer they've taken advantage of these, you know, this is New York, but around the country, gifted rampant.
• 19:43
  Around the country, gifted and talented is a big thing.
• 19:46
  Yeah.
• 19:46
  Okay.
• 19:47
  But the author now believes that the giftedness story is not true.
• 19:52
  Okay.
• 19:54
  And she goes into a lot of detail about this.
• 19:57
  Like, you know, they say, advocacy groups say that for high potential kids, that they're gifted if they perform or have the ability to perform at a high, higher level than other kids their age.
• 20:12
  And that's difference is what defines them.
• 20:15
  And then she goes on and on about how kind of unfair it is and how complicated it is, which is true.
• 20:21
  To measure intelligence and ability and not just ability, but potential.
• 20:27
  Yes.
• 20:27
  And she says, you know, is it genetic?
• 20:30
  Is it environmental?
• 20:31
  Probably both.
• 20:32
  What do we even mean by intelligence?
• 20:34
  Is it a single quality?
• 20:36
  Is it how we think?
• 20:38
  Is, Are there other.
• 20:39
  What about the other forms of intelligence like linguistic, musical, spatial?
• 20:44
  Which is true.
• 20:46
  And she says, you know, is it a form of neurodivergent.
• 20:50
  Because highly intelligent People are often on the neurodivergent spectrum.
• 20:55
  Yeah, they're all.
• 20:56
  That doesn't surprise me at all.
• 20:58
  Right.
• 20:58
  They have ADHD at a higher rate.
• 21:00
  They're autistic.
• 21:03
  They.
• 21:04
  In 1972, the government rejected.
• 21:07
  The US government rejected the standard that any IQ over 130 was gifted in favor of six dimensions of high intelligence, which include general intellectual ability.
• 21:19
  That would be IQ specific academic aptitude, how you do in school, creative thinking, leadership ability, aptitude in visual and performing arts, and gross and fine motor skills.
• 21:33
  And these cannot all be captured on one standardized test.
• 21:36
  I have a question.
• 21:37
  Of those categories, which do you think is the most meaningful in the real world?
• 21:42
  Which kind of intelligence do you think is probably the most useful?
• 21:46
  I think a combination of some of these.
• 21:49
  It's like.
• 21:49
  And so, for example, having a high iq, general intellectual ability, being able to think and reason very quickly is very important.
• 21:58
  Creativity is very important.
• 22:00
  Leadership is.
• 22:01
  It depends kind of on what you want to do with it.
• 22:03
  I feel like creativity and leadership are the least easy to commodify, which, looking at, like, the kind of world that our world is becoming, is probably the kind of intelligence that would be more useful in terms of, like,
• 22:18
  not being absorbed into the AI forte.
• 22:22
  When I think about Karen Quinn and Testing mom, the first thing that stands out is their effectiveness in truly enhancing a child's education.
• 22:31
  You see, Karen is a national expert on gifted and talented testing, and she's the ultimate authority on helping kids get into top schools.
• 22:39
  I know this firsthand because she helped two out of my three kids get into the best schools in New York City.
• 22:46
  And my youngest child is eight months.
• 22:48
  I'm sure she will help her as well.
• 22:51
  What really makes Testing Moms special is that they're not just about academics.
• 22:56
  They're focused on the social and emotional development of children.
• 22:59
  Children.
• 23:00
  It's about nurturing the whole child and giving them a strong foundation in academics and confidence and life skills.
• 23:08
  Her insights and resources have made a lasting impact on my family and countless others.
• 23:15
  I am forever indebted to Karen Quinn and Testing mom.
• 23:18
  And you should have no hesitation about trying out their services.
• 23:26
  The way it works is around the country.
• 23:27
  Every school district evaluates kids however they want.
• 23:32
  Okay?
• 23:32
  They have.
• 23:33
  I mean, every school district does it the same way within their district.
• 23:37
  Some actually will have.
• 23:39
  They'll make them take a test, they'll look at their grades.
• 23:43
  There is a creativity test they can take, and then they'll do, like, these questionnaires that get to whether or not they have leadership Capacity, you know, so there actually are places that make it a lot.
• 23:56
  If your friends are jumping off a bridge, are you following them?
• 23:59
  Right.
• 23:59
  Yes, I am.
• 24:00
  You're not a leader behind.
• 24:02
  Exactly.
• 24:03
  So anyway, so some.
• 24:04
  There are districts that look at all of that, right.
• 24:08
  And they talk about how, you know the history of IQ tests in this.
• 24:12
  How Alfred Benet's discovery, like Oppenheimer's was used poorly as far as he is concerned.
• 24:19
  Right.
• 24:19
  Well, he doesn't know because he's long.
• 24:21
  Dead, but he's rolling in his grave.
• 24:24
  That's what.
• 24:24
  That's what his rolling around relatives say.
• 24:26
  It's that he wouldn't have a rotisserie chicken.
• 24:29
  That's right.
• 24:31
  So in, in 1987 there was a law passed that where we were trying to get increase, you know, the capacity of our children in those.
• 24:44
  I think it was when, when Sputnik happened.
• 24:48
  Oh my God, we were so stressed out about the Russians ahead of us.
• 24:52
  They're so much smarter than us.
• 24:54
  So they're been laws passed to try to support our brightest kids and give them special, put them forth to face.
• 25:01
  Off with the Russians.
• 25:03
  Right.
• 25:03
  And so now we have these gifted programs all over the country and most schools.
• 25:09
  So wait, is this a product of the Cold War?
• 25:13
  I mean, I think the fact that there are more and more of them is.
• 25:16
  Yeah, because we were trying to make sure that our kids were just as.
• 25:21
  As qualified and smart as the Russians.
• 25:23
  We were trying to beat the Russians.
• 25:24
  Oh, always trying to beat the Russians.
• 25:26
  There was something called the Jacob Javits G and T Children and Youth Education.
• 25:30
  Act that was passed.
• 25:31
  Javitz of the Javits Center, I might add.
• 25:33
  Yes, Javits.
• 25:34
  He was a.
• 25:35
  Jacob Javitz was a senator, I believe.
• 25:38
  I don't know, but I just love meet the breeds and that happens at Jacob Javits Center.
• 25:42
  What's meet?
• 25:43
  Oh, the dogs.
• 25:44
  When they have all the dogs out and they have their own little sections and you can go and meet every single breed of dog.
• 25:48
  What fun.
• 25:49
  And I love to go to that.
• 25:50
  Oh my God, it's in the winter.
• 25:52
  Boy.
• 25:52
  Love to go.
• 25:53
  Let's go.
• 25:54
  Anyway, so yeah, so this is when.
• 25:57
  When there began to be more G and T programs across the country.
• 26:03
  And most schools they use what's called a cognitive test to determine if the child is gifted.
• 26:08
  Okay.
• 26:09
  Cognitive test is a thinking test.
• 26:11
  It could be like an IQ test.
• 26:13
  But there's also these group ability tests that we.
• 26:16
  That's what we.
• 26:17
  A testing mom.
• 26:18
  We help people prepare their kids for those groupability it's called groupability tests.
• 26:23
  Like ability in a group?
• 26:25
  Well, no, it's a group test, which means they give it at school instead of one to one, like an IQ test.
• 26:32
  And they're looking at how your child thinks, so they're looking at how do they think?
• 26:37
  With language, with quantitative reasoning and with visual spatial reasoning in most cases.
• 26:44
  And so there's all these different tests.
• 26:46
  They have acronyms like the olsat, the cogat, the nnat, there's all the ipsi.
• 26:52
  The ipsi, the wpsi.
• 26:54
  Yeah, they're all.
• 26:54
  That's what they are.
• 26:55
  So anyway, there's all these different tests.
• 26:57
  That's what we help people get prepared for at testing.
• 27:00
  Mom.
• 27:01
  And of course, schools hate us because they want us to send the kids.
• 27:04
  They want the kids to come in cold, raw dog those tests.
• 27:07
  Right.
• 27:08
  Don't.
• 27:09
  Crazy.
• 27:09
  They don't want any preparation.
• 27:11
  Well, I guess as far as they're concerned.
• 27:13
  Right.
• 27:13
  You know, some people have access to test prep and some people don't.
• 27:17
  Right.
• 27:17
  That said, with the Internet, there's actually quite a lot of access to preparation.
• 27:23
  Like.
• 27:23
  And we keep it so inexpensive.
• 27:25
  We keep it so that anyone can do it.
• 27:27
  Yeah.
• 27:28
  Which, I mean, so if you want.
• 27:29
  To pursue it, you totally should.
• 27:31
  Yeah.
• 27:32
  You know, so anyway, but these are this.
• 27:34
  And here what we're talking about is, what they are really talking about in school is.
• 27:40
  Is school giftedness.
• 27:42
  Like, what this is what educators have determined are the qualities you need to have to do well in school if you're, if you get a high score on these types of tests.
• 27:53
  But they, they talk about how there's a lot of issues with this because sometimes they'll only test your child once.
• 28:01
  As a very young child at a young age.
• 28:03
  And if they get in, then they get to stay in.
• 28:06
  And, and they're saying, you know, your brain kind of shifts over time.
• 28:09
  You gotta earn your.
• 28:10
  You earn your keep.
• 28:11
  Yeah, but no, they don't.
• 28:13
  Once you're in, you're in.
• 28:14
  In most cases, I mean, I guess.
• 28:16
  What if you fall behind?
• 28:17
  Then you just get.
• 28:18
  Well, what happens is if you can't keep up, you, you probably end up moving to a different program.
• 28:22
  You get lost on the Orient Trail.
• 28:24
  You're not gonna stay in a program if, if it's not working for you.
• 28:27
  But, but if you're barely scraping by, that counts.
• 28:31
  Yeah.
• 28:32
  What do they call the guy who graduates last in his class in medical school?
• 28:36
  Doctor.
• 28:37
  Doctor.
• 28:37
  I know.
• 28:38
  That's a fact.
• 28:39
  That is true.
• 28:40
  Anyway, they also talk about the fact that you know, there's so many problems with these tests that, that make it unfair.
• 28:46
  That's what the author is saying.
• 28:48
  Like what if you, the kid doesn't like the test administrator or if that happens and what if the teacher writing the evaluation has, you know, for some reason is prejudiced against the kid for some reason Also possible.
• 29:03
  People are people when a kid is prepped.
• 29:05
  Is that fair?
• 29:07
  What if the kid's hungry or tired or has to go to the bathroom?
• 29:10
  There's so many reasons that a test,.
• 29:12
  And that might sound silly if you're not a parent, but if you have a child and they are hungry, tired or need to go to the bathroom, the level of urgency is like DEFCON 5.
• 29:22
  Yeah.
• 29:23
  It's not just like they can wait their entire life.
• 29:26
  Mind and being are consumed by this one discomfort.
• 29:30
  So she goes, this is a whole lot into problems with tests.
• 29:34
  Like she talks about the whipsi, which is an IQ test that's given.
• 29:39
  And she says, you know, it's unfair because if you come from a different culture, one of the questions is, you know, a picture of a duck, a cow, a dog and a pig.
• 29:50
  And the question is, which one says oink?
• 29:53
  And she says, well, if you're from Japan, they'll say boo.
• 29:58
  Boo is what a cow is what a pig says.
• 30:02
  So these are subjective.
• 30:04
  These are subjective.
• 30:04
  Culturally subjective.
• 30:06
  I mean, could they give, do they offer the test in languages other than English?
• 30:10
  Yes, if you're in.
• 30:13
  I guess that makes sense.
• 30:13
  Cause the country that you're in is the program you'll be learning in.
• 30:17
  That is the language you should probably be.
• 30:18
  What she didn't mention is this particular test does have a narrative portion where the test, the person giving the test could write, English is not this child's first language.
• 30:30
  So that is possible.
• 30:32
  But she didn't say that.
• 30:33
  Of course she didn't.
• 30:34
  No, but that's true.
• 30:35
  But that is a thing.
• 30:36
  But anyway, so she also talks about how New York has this whole new subjective way where people just recommend their kids willy nilly.
• 30:44
  That's completely subjective.
• 30:47
  So there's, you know, yes, there are problems with these tests.
• 30:50
  There's no question about it.
• 30:52
  There's no perfect way to evaluate anybody for anything really.
• 30:55
  No, not really.
• 30:57
  And we hear from one mother who's talking about the New York City situation where the gifted testing was replaced by these recommendations.
• 31:07
  And she just, in her mind, it's a joke.
• 31:10
  And look, I do think that it's,.
• 31:16
  I think it just needlessly complicates the situation at hand because like, you know, you're trying to see if this child can survive in a program.
• 31:26
  Right, right.
• 31:28
  And obviously we are biased as parents.
• 31:30
  We all think our children are the smartest people on earth because they're ours.
• 31:34
  But if we're trying to make this a slightly like an objective, because surviving in this program is objective.
• 31:41
  You either will or you won't.
• 31:42
  You'll keep up or you won't.
• 31:44
  Right.
• 31:44
  I think it just creates a lot more work for the people admitting these kids to these programs.
• 31:48
  If they're sifting through all of these applications that it's like, you know, the whole thing kind of becomes a slush pile at a certain point.
• 31:56
  That said, is it a super fair process?
• 31:59
  No.
• 32:00
  If you grew up in New York, you will know most of those, particularly the high schools.
• 32:05
  The high schools in New York that are considered gifted and talented are, I mean, at this point, probably like 70 something percent Asian.
• 32:15
  Well, you have to test into those.
• 32:16
  You have to test into those.
• 32:18
  And it is objective because again, whoever passes the test qualifies for a spot.
• 32:23
  There aren't enough spots.
• 32:23
  Is the lottery at that point.
• 32:26
  You know, I, I believe there's, I don't.
• 32:28
  I believe not everyone gets in because there aren't enough spots.
• 32:32
  But then you have to look at.
• 32:33
  You can either qualify.
• 32:34
  There's a whole system to get in.
• 32:35
  Yeah, but when I was growing up, I'd say most of the kids at STY were Asian.
• 32:41
  Still that way.
• 32:42
  Yeah, yeah, but it's, you know, but look, it's hard.
• 32:46
  It's not an objective thing.
• 32:48
  It's not like taking a blood test and finding out your blood type.
• 32:51
  It's like you're doing the best they can.
• 32:53
  It's not going to be perfectly fair, you know, and that, that is a problem.
• 32:59
  But it doesn't mean that there shouldn't be programs for kids who learn faster or, you know, have that ability.
• 33:08
  In fact, most public schools should probably strive for programs like that or more.
• 33:14
  Programs like that, more spaces for kids who need it.
• 33:17
  Just like they need spaces for kids who are challenged in learning.
• 33:22
  They need special help too.
• 33:24
  And they need better programs for that too.
• 33:26
  Yeah, absolutely, they do.
• 33:29
  Anyway, so the article goes into the fact that moms talk about maybe a mom who had one child in a gifted program, one child in a regular classroom, and she says, you know what?
• 33:43
  It was kind of my child in the regular gen ed classroom actually was happier and learned more because the teacher was better.
• 33:52
  Or, you know, the gifted programs don't have assistance, whereas the, you know, gen ed Classrooms do.
• 34:01
  So sometimes you're better off.
• 34:02
  There's like a second teacher.
• 34:05
  Exactly.
• 34:05
  So there's a lot of, you know, argument about is it worth it?
• 34:08
  Is it not worth it?
• 34:10
  Well, I think.
• 34:11
  Right.
• 34:11
  It just depends on what's your alternative.
• 34:13
  You know, if the, your local public school sucks and the Gift and talented program is without a doubt better, I think the stakes are higher.
• 34:23
  And I think that that is where a lot of the criticism for testing comes in, you know, because I think the stakes are so high for a lot of the people who ultimately are pushed out.
• 34:36
  Yeah, people.
• 34:37
  For a lot of kids, it's, it's really important they get into those programs.
• 34:40
  It's the best education they can possibly get.
• 34:43
  And if you're from a wealthier family, maybe, and, and, and your kid doesn't get in, maybe you can afford tutors or after school programs or private school, but a family maybe who doesn't have those means, if their child
• 34:59
  doesn't get in, man, they've lost an opportunity.
• 35:01
  Absolutely.
• 35:02
  And so, you know, it's hard to make it perfectly fair.
• 35:05
  Yeah.
• 35:06
  And I would say impossible to make it perfectly fair.
• 35:09
  It is, it really is.
• 35:11
  Because tests are only so objective.
• 35:13
  Yeah.
• 35:13
  And then so she talks a lot about different issues around this.
• 35:18
  You know, she says, well, this is wrong.
• 35:22
  But what she says is there's a researcher who says the gifted kids don't have higher state test scores, so why give them the advantage of a gifted classroom?
• 35:33
  And the reason I say it's wrong is I remember when they used to test kids into the New York City gifted program and then they would show the gifted schools the scores on the state test.
• 35:45
  They were so much higher.
• 35:46
  Yeah.
• 35:47
  Than the schools that were the gen ed schools.
• 35:49
  The tests were.
• 35:50
  Scores were way high.
• 35:51
  Undeniable.
• 35:52
  It was.
• 35:53
  I mean, maybe.
• 35:53
  I don't know what state.
• 35:54
  Like if you've seen numbers before.
• 35:56
  I have seen the numbers and I know, but anyway, but anyway, so, but they talk about a teacher in New Mexico who said she used lessons for a gifted program in her gen ed classroom and she said her
• 36:09
  kids loved it and did really well with it.
• 36:10
  So then maybe that's the answer.
• 36:12
  Change the curriculum across the board.
• 36:14
  Exactly.
• 36:15
  Let, if that's the case, let your.
• 36:17
  Let all the kids use that curriculum.
• 36:19
  What are we doing, guys?
• 36:20
  Problem solved.
• 36:22
  World piece accomplished one author.
• 36:25
  Another point the author makes is that if you're labeled as gifted, you're kind of othered.
• 36:32
  You know that other that if you don't do well in school, kids make fun of you and this was one person who said that they would tease her when she wasn't perfect in school, and then when she got
• 36:46
  to college, she struggled because suddenly she wasn't the school smart one.
• 36:50
  Yes.
• 36:51
  And again, that hearkens back to Carol Dweck and mindset.
• 36:55
  Yeah.
• 36:56
  And that you're almost better off being told you're medium.
• 37:00
  Yeah.
• 37:00
  Just.
• 37:01
  But you're a really hard worker.
• 37:02
  You're a really hard worker, so keep doing it.
• 37:04
  Yeah.
• 37:05
  Because you will never be burned by working hard.
• 37:08
  Right.
• 37:09
  Unless you're working for something like, bad.
• 37:11
  Yeah.
• 37:12
  So don't do that.
• 37:13
  Well, and then there's.
• 37:16
  There is a study that shows that people who make.
• 37:18
  Make it to the top of their field the way they.
• 37:22
  They didn't peak early and weren't necessarily in gifted programs, but they progress more gradually.
• 37:30
  So when they're like weight loss, if.
• 37:32
  You want to keep it off, lose.
• 37:33
  It slow, do it.
• 37:34
  They.
• 37:34
  They.
• 37:34
  That's what she.
• 37:35
  That's what one study showed, that when they're younger, they may actually perform at a lower level, but then they'll surpass the people who are still supposedly gifted.
• 37:45
  So she's trying to prove.
• 37:47
  The author's kind of trying to prove, see, giftedness really doesn't exist.
• 37:51
  What that says to me is that we're just not testing at the right time because, like, maybe, maybe young kids, maybe you get some false positives, you know, and many false negatives.
• 38:03
  I'm sure you do.
• 38:04
  Listen.
• 38:05
  It's a hard one.
• 38:06
  It's very hard to be.
• 38:08
  To get it right.
• 38:10
  And they talk about the center for Talented Youth at Johns Hopkins, which is a big program that people try to get their very bright kids into.
• 38:21
  A lot of our testing.
• 38:22
  Mom kids go there or.
• 38:24
  Or get into that program, and they said they don't call their students gifted students.
• 38:29
  They.
• 38:29
  They call them advanced learners.
• 38:32
  And when they work with them, they.
• 38:33
  They don't say to them, oh, you're so special.
• 38:37
  You know, they try to get away from all that.
• 38:39
  Yeah.
• 38:39
  They just say, hey, don't ask them up.
• 38:41
  We're just looking at what you can do and what you need, you know, so they're just very, you know, you don't.
• 38:48
  I don't think you want to tell any kid that you're gifted or you're.
• 38:52
  Different in any way.
• 38:54
  I think it's as.
• 38:55
  When you become an adult, you realize you want to be distinguished, but when you're a kid, you just kind of want to blend in.
• 39:01
  Yeah.
• 39:01
  You do.
• 39:02
  That's true.
• 39:04
  Yeah.
• 39:05
  And, yeah.
• 39:07
  So she says former Gifted and talented kids talk about how they were warned not to brag about their designation.
• 39:15
  And some of them felt guilty about being pulled out of the regular classroom and going with small groups for special instruction where it was more fun and more creative than being in a regular classroom.
• 39:28
  I think that's interesting because a lot of people would probably assume that the more academically minded kids are the gifted ones and yet the, the curriculum that they're offering them is more creative.
• 39:44
  Yeah.
• 39:44
  So that's true.
• 39:46
  What are we really like?
• 39:48
  What do we value?
• 39:49
  1, 2.
• 39:51
  What is the more important thing to foster?
• 39:54
  Well, it depends on the program actually.
• 39:57
  Some gifted and talented programs are like that where they, they make it a little more fun and creative and they, they have the same curriculum, it's the same grade level curriculum, but some are like more intro.
• 40:08
  But some are much more.
• 40:09
  Yeah, they're much more like rigid.
• 40:12
  When you're done, you're going to be a grade level ahead of yourself.
• 40:15
  So they're pushing you really hard.
• 40:17
  So it depends on the program.
• 40:19
  Yeah.
• 40:20
  Yeah.
• 40:21
  And then the author of the article in the end, which is so very interesting to me, she says that she finally got hold of her permanent records and she found out that she was actually one point shy on
• 40:36
  her WISC test of being designate of being gifted.
• 40:40
  She'd lived a lie.
• 40:41
  She's been living a lie.
• 40:44
  But they had invited her to just join their school's enrichment program, which she always thought she was in the gifted program, but no, she was in the enrichment program that her parents had never told her in order to
• 40:56
  spare her feelings.
• 40:58
  But when she got this news, even after writing this whole article where she was making fun of and saying, no, no, no, there's nothing.
• 41:06
  Turns out, girl, it wasn't even about you.
• 41:08
  I'm not.
• 41:08
  Her whole self identity was shattered and she wasn't who she thought she was.
• 41:14
  And even though she had spent months working on this article about the hollowness of America's gifted programs, she had to run to the bathroom and throw the drama.
• 41:24
  The drama.
• 41:25
  You know, that's honestly, that's one thing about growing up believing you're dumb.
• 41:29
  There's nowhere to go but up.
• 41:33
  You're right.
• 41:33
  That is so true.
• 41:35
  I think that's where my confidence comes from.
• 41:37
  I was like, listen, everyone's like, I'll show them.
• 41:40
  I don't need to show anybody.
• 41:42
  Well, no, that's so funny.
• 41:45
  No, it's true.
• 41:46
  It's like, it's so funny.
• 41:47
  She's making.
• 41:48
  She hates the whole thing.
• 41:49
  And when she finds out she finds out she's not a part of it.
• 41:52
  She misses by one point.
• 41:54
  One point.
• 41:55
  She's so close.
• 41:56
  You're gonna be okay.
• 41:58
  It's like, hello.
• 41:59
  Come on.
• 41:59
  One point means nothing.
• 42:01
  We're hung up on the wrong thing, girl.
• 42:03
  We're hung up on the wrong thing.
• 42:05
  But anyway, so that was an interesting article.
• 42:07
  Yeah.
• 42:07
  Okay, now the next one was.
• 42:10
  Okay.
• 42:10
  That the woman.
• 42:11
  This is.
• 42:12
  I was enrolled in a gifted program as a kid.
• 42:16
  Years later, I discovered a dark side I never knew of.
• 42:20
  The dark side of giftedness.
• 42:22
  Whoa.
• 42:23
  And she said, there is a troubling flip side to the gifted experience that took me years to unpack by this woman, Sophie Boudreau.
• 42:32
  And this is Huffington Post.
• 42:36
  Okay, you want to start talking about this one?
• 42:38
  Sure.
• 42:39
  This author talks about having been labeled gifted in early elementary school.
• 42:44
  While her friends were reading Dr.
• 42:45
  Seuss, her teacher gave her chapter books to read, which were more on my level.
• 42:50
  Okay.
• 42:51
  Okay, Sophie.
• 42:52
  This marked her foray into privilege and curse her journey into being set apart academically from her classmates.
• 43:00
  Dun dun, dun.
• 43:02
  In middle school, she was put into a G and T program at her school.
• 43:04
  And she said in the early days, her experience with this program was positive.
• 43:08
  Many of her close friends were in it, and she loved hanging out with them for like one or two hours a day working on projects that interested them.
• 43:14
  She said that the teachers that she worked with in G and T were engaged and wanted to the group to thrive.
• 43:19
  It was a safe place for her at school where she could be her weird self.
• 43:22
  Later, she learned what she called the troubling flip side to the G and T programs.
• 43:28
  In order to identify the top 10% of kids who could get in, many kids were excluded for factors beyond their control.
• 43:34
  Here she talked about learning that the students of color were less likely to be labeled gifted than white students.
• 43:39
  As she progressed in school, she realized that much of her self esteem came from her gift gifted and talented label.
• 43:45
  Again, don't trust what people tell you about yourself.
• 43:47
  People.
• 43:48
  That's right.
• 43:49
  Honestly, learn a little something.
• 43:51
  If she struggled to master something in math, she didn't want to ask for help.
• 43:55
  This was a student I was talking about earlier.
• 43:56
  Yeah.
• 43:57
  Because she knew she was gifted, so she thought that she was supposed to be able to do the work without help.
• 44:02
  Later, she gave up on hobbies that she couldn't immediately master because she believed that she should be able to succeed at everything right away with her giftedness.
• 44:11
  With, like, who is setting these kids up to believe things like this?
• 44:15
  Well, because I guess Their parents are bragging about them being gifted.
• 44:18
  And you don't want to do that, obviously.
• 44:20
  And being smart, I mean, we learned that with Carol Dweck in Mindset.
• 44:24
  Yeah.
• 44:25
  Go back and listen to that episode if you haven't.
• 44:27
  Yes, highly recommend.
• 44:29
  Honestly, that is a book every single person could benefit from understanding.
• 44:33
  Right.
• 44:33
  Because your mindset really is so much of your life.
• 44:36
  Life, yes.
• 44:37
  In high school, she was encouraged to take as many AP classes as she could with the idea that gifted kids should be high.
• 44:44
  Should being the key word.
• 44:45
  Should be high achievers.
• 44:47
  I just want to say the world is run by C students anyway, that she should and could be excellent at everything.
• 44:55
  Again, no.
• 44:57
  Not everybody can be everything.
• 44:58
  No.
• 44:58
  Even if you're gifted, you're only you.
• 45:00
  You're not going to be great at everything.
• 45:01
  No.
• 45:02
  Good at many things.
• 45:03
  And it's absurd to expect anybody to be great at everything.
• 45:07
  Except for that one guy whose house you stumbled into.
• 45:10
  Who wrote Les Mis.
• 45:11
  Oh, Victor Hugo.
• 45:12
  Victor Hugo.
• 45:13
  He was great.
• 45:14
  He was a Renaissance man.
• 45:15
  Yes, he was.
• 45:17
  He was.
• 45:17
  Yes.
• 45:19
  In college, she began experiencing doubts about her gifted education experience.
• 45:23
  She was no longer the smart kid at the University of Michigan.
• 45:27
  Teachers didn't praise her.
• 45:28
  She.
• 45:28
  She made bees.
• 45:29
  God forbid.
• 45:30
  When she couldn't maintain perfection, she felt like she was failing.
• 45:34
  This is another problem with tying your entire identity to one quality that you have.
• 45:41
  Be more.
• 45:42
  Right.
• 45:43
  Be more than one thing.
• 45:45
  Well, I.
• 45:46
  Yes.
• 45:46
  Maybe you're really good at tiddlywinks.
• 45:48
  That is a very excellent skill to have because you know how many people are good at that?
• 45:53
  Very few.
• 45:54
  So cultivate many hobbies and interests.
• 45:56
  That's right.
• 45:56
  Parents, people.
• 45:58
  Right.
• 45:58
  Anyway, join the circus.
• 46:00
  That'll give you confidence.
• 46:02
  Later, she felt ashamed that she didn't want to go to graduate school.
• 46:06
  Okay, that's hilarious to me.
• 46:09
  Without academic validation, though, who was she again?
• 46:13
  Why are we tying our identity to, like, one thing?
• 46:16
  Well, I think that was.
• 46:18
  I think that maybe when she grew up, her parents must have really emphasized the fact of her gift at the.
• 46:25
  And she misunderstood it, thinking just, I'm gifted.
• 46:29
  That means I'm going to be good at anything academic.
• 46:31
  But that just is not the case.
• 46:35
  Things will be easy for you.
• 46:36
  Things will be hard for you.
• 46:37
  Things will elude you.
• 46:38
  And you know what?
• 46:39
  That's okay.
• 46:40
  That's why most people are experts in one thing.
• 46:44
  Yeah, you know, exactly.
• 46:46
  Okay.
• 46:48
  My feeling about testing mom is that there is no investment to great to make into your child's well being.
• 46:57
  Their sense of security, their sense of knowledge Their sense of achievement and feeling secure about what they know, especially when it comes to doing well in school.
• 47:10
  I would say that testing mom is not only the most worthwhile investment I've made into my daughter's education thus far.
• 47:21
  It's really so affordable.
• 47:24
  It provided me with literally what seemed like an infinite amount of options.
• 47:31
  So if you signed on for all these apps individually, you would pay much, much more.
• 47:39
  She realized that her G and T experience merged self worth with grades.
• 47:44
  Couldn't be me.
• 47:45
  She had internalized so many false measures of success.
• 47:48
  Today, she has to keep reminding herself that she's a worthy person regardless of her accomplishment.
• 47:53
  And that breaks my heart for her.
• 47:54
  Yeah.
• 47:55
  Yeah.
• 47:55
  You know, that's very sad.
• 47:57
  She doesn't regret the time she spent in gt, but wishes that they had offered more mental health support.
• 48:02
  Second this and inclusion for kids who didn't fit the program's narrow definition of exceptionalism.
• 48:08
  She wished she could unlearn the idea that outward praise equals success and enjoy learning for the sake of learning.
• 48:16
  Read mindset.
• 48:17
  Mindset is exactly on this point.
• 48:20
  Read it to your children.
• 48:21
  Yeah, well, just as a parent, if you read it, then you kind of know how to bring up your kid.
• 48:26
  Yeah.
• 48:27
  Which is really what I think that book kind of helps you with is.
• 48:31
  Don't.
• 48:31
  You know, you don't want to keep talking about how smart your child is, but just praise how hard they're working.
• 48:37
  Praise them for effort, for trying new things.
• 48:42
  And, you know, when they fail, be excited because that means they're doing something hard.
• 48:46
  Yes.
• 48:47
  Failure is an opportunity.
• 48:48
  It is not an obstacle.
• 48:50
  Right.
• 48:51
  So the last thing that we read is a case for gifted education.
• 48:58
  And this is in from Psychology Today, Tyler woods, author.
• 49:03
  And it's for second.
• 49:04
  When I first read that, I was like, tiger Woods.
• 49:06
  No, not Tiger Woods.
• 49:08
  It's like, what's he doing?
• 49:08
  Writing art articles?
• 49:10
  No, no, he doesn't.
• 49:11
  Even jail or Tyler would.
• 49:13
  No, no, no, he's not in jail.
• 49:14
  He just, like, crashed a car.
• 49:16
  No, but they didn't put him in.
• 49:17
  He's.
• 49:17
  He's not in jail.
• 49:18
  Okay.
• 49:19
  He should stop drinking.
• 49:20
  I think he's, like, recovering from some injuries or something.
• 49:23
  I hope he.
• 49:23
  I mean, listen, God bless, but please stop drinking and driving.
• 49:26
  Right.
• 49:27
  Personal perspective, why equity shouldn't mean holding bright minds back.
• 49:32
  Okay, so he talks about how New York mayor, candidate Z.
• 49:37
  He's our mayor.
• 49:37
  He's not a candidate.
• 49:38
  Oh, yeah, you're right.
• 49:39
  He was a candidate.
• 49:40
  I guess now he's the mayor.
• 49:43
  He's currently our mayor.
• 49:44
  But when he was a candidate, he suggested ending gifted programs until third grade, and the parents were very angry.
• 49:52
  And so when he did that, the Washington Post board got into the mix, even though they're not in New York.
• 49:59
  And they warned that politicians tread on dangerous grounds when their pursuit of equity comes at the cost of children's opportunities.
• 50:08
  I think it's annoying because the mayor really doesn't have a ton of jurisdiction, but one thing they do have jurisdiction over is the Department of Education, which I think is why this seems to come up every single time.
• 50:21
  It's a big thing, too.
• 50:22
  Well, it's one thing that they can impact.
• 50:24
  Otherwise, it's a largely ceremonial position.
• 50:26
  Right, right.
• 50:27
  So the author here is saying this debate is completely misunderstanding gifted, which is often portrayed as an elite advantage for kids who have already won a prize, which is extra intelligence.
• 50:42
  Gifted classes are supposed to be a form of special education for kids who learn differently.
• 50:48
  They're supposed to be receiving education at the depth and pace they need to thrive.
• 50:55
  Gifted kids aren't just smarter, but they learn differently.
• 50:58
  They make connections more quickly.
• 51:00
  They crave complexity.
• 51:02
  They get restless when they.
• 51:04
  The lessons move too slowly.
• 51:06
  When they aren't challenged, they lose motivation, they act out, they withdraw emotionally.
• 51:12
  Giftedness is not a prize.
• 51:14
  In fact, if you have a highly gifted kid, I feel sorry.
• 51:18
  I mean, it is hard.
• 51:19
  It is hard to get them educated.
• 51:22
  It's complicated.
• 51:23
  It's a learning difference that needs support, and we should expand access to gifted education, not take it away from kids.
• 51:33
  What this was reminding me of is a few years ago, when equity in education was just going overboard, there were schools, and I'm telling you this is true, that they decided to eliminate advanced math classes because not all
• 51:49
  kids in their school could handle advanced math classes.
• 51:52
  Well, then they just wouldn't be in the class.
• 51:53
  No, no, no, no.
• 51:54
  They got rid of it because it wasn't fair that not every kid could get in.
• 51:58
  We're not teaching.
• 52:00
  They just said we're not going to teach higher levels math unless everyone can participate, because it's not fake.
• 52:05
  Well, school is a microcosm of the world in many ways.
• 52:08
  And again, like, not everybody's going to be great at everything.
• 52:11
  Exactly.
• 52:12
  Let's celebrate our differences.
• 52:14
  Right.
• 52:15
  And.
• 52:15
  And we need people who can do hard math because, yeah, they build.
• 52:19
  They.
• 52:19
  How do you think planes exist?
• 52:21
  Exactly.
• 52:21
  How do you think engineering exists?
• 52:23
  How do you think so many of these feats of human, you know, ingenuity happen?
• 52:29
  Math, unfortunately.
• 52:31
  Because I hate math.
• 52:32
  Right.
• 52:32
  I hate it.
• 52:33
  We need people who are good at it.
• 52:34
  So I don't have to be right.
• 52:36
  Exactly.
• 52:36
  Yeah.
• 52:37
  And there's no question that there's an equity problem with kindergarten.
• 52:40
  Totally.
• 52:40
  Absolutely.
• 52:40
  There really is.
• 52:41
  Black and Hispanic kids make up 63% of kindergartners of kindergarten, but only 16% of GT students.
• 52:49
  This is in New York City, but it's similar to that across the country.
• 52:54
  But the solution is not to scrap the program.
• 52:56
  What we need to do, they're saying, is we need to change how we identify these students.
• 53:02
  Schools should be testing all students.
• 53:05
  And when you do that, the number of low income and minority students goes up dramatically.
• 53:11
  What's preventing them from being tested otherwise?
• 53:14
  Do you have to sort of opt in?
• 53:16
  Well, first of all, in New York, they don't even test them, the young kids.
• 53:20
  So they got rid of that in the name of equity.
• 53:22
  So I think that this is an interesting idea, is just test everyone.
• 53:26
  Test everyone.
• 53:27
  And they've shown that when you do that, more kids, minority and low income kids qualify.
• 53:36
  Okay.
• 53:36
  So the criteria, with the new subjective recommendation system that we switched to about five years ago, the criteria for entry is applied inconsistently and unconscious bias keeps candidates of color from being recognized.
• 53:55
  Equity doesn't mean lowering the ceiling so everyone can touch it.
• 53:59
  It means giving everybody, every child, the support they need to go as high as they can.
• 54:05
  And research shows that gifted kids who are challenged and supported go on to make significant contributions in society.
• 54:13
  Those whose needs weren't supported often lost interest and underachieved.
• 54:18
  Families with means can really make up the difference because they can get tutors, they can send their kids to private school like we talked about, but families without means can't.
• 54:29
  They need these programs, and eliminating them really hurts the kids who need it the most.
• 54:35
  Totally.
• 54:36
  So gifted kids are defined.
• 54:38
  This is one of the definitions.
• 54:40
  As kids with asynchronous.
• 54:44
  I always have problems pronouncing that development, which means their intellectual, emotional and social growth does not happen at the same time.
• 54:52
  So you could have a 7 year old who can read like a high schooler, but has the emotion of a seven year old.
• 54:59
  And this can make school a real problem for them.
• 55:01
  That's why they need to be in classrooms with other kids like them.
• 55:06
  But the the solution isn't to end gifted programs, but to improve it.
• 55:11
  Schools should use very fair assessments that recognize talent in all communities, not just kids who test well or whose parents know how to advocate.
• 55:20
  Teachers should be trained to recognize gifted kids.
• 55:23
  And there should be a lot of different paths into the gifted program.
• 55:26
  Yeah, like they have those six measures that we talked about earlier.
• 55:30
  I think maybe the answer is, is you have.
• 55:34
  The teacher has to put forth two or three kids for each category.
• 55:38
  Yeah.
• 55:38
  For different reasons.
• 55:40
  Or this kid has, you know, maybe couple of the different qualities.
• 55:44
  This is the thing.
• 55:45
  I think people have an issue with the competitive element of it, but like, I don't know, man.
• 55:50
  Welcome to life.
• 55:51
  Life's a competition.
• 55:52
  It.
• 55:52
  Yeah, it is.
• 55:53
  You know, that's the truth of it.
• 55:55
  And I think if we shelter kids from that, you know, forever, it's.
• 55:59
  They're gonna be shocked.
• 56:01
  Yeah.
• 56:01
  Yeah.
• 56:02
  Especially when they're competing with the Russians.
• 56:04
  Right.
• 56:04
  Sputnik.
• 56:05
  Well, that was a long time ago, but still, I mean, I bet they.
• 56:07
  Don't have problems in Russia.
• 56:09
  I bet in Russia they're like, everybody goes to school 15 hours a day and is a perfect student or gulag for you.
• 56:17
  I don't know how it works in Russia.
• 56:18
  That's great.
• 56:19
  I really don't know.
• 56:20
  I know I'm fully speculating.
• 56:22
  Yeah.
• 56:22
  I don't know.
• 56:23
  But anyway, it's here of true equity in education.
• 56:27
  And this is hard to do in a big institution, but trying to give all students whatever it is they need.
• 56:34
  Some are going to need more time and support just to build those foundational skills or help learning to read.
• 56:42
  Others need greater challenges to keep their minds sharp and curious.
• 56:47
  And cities like Dallas and Miami do use universal screenings and they get more kids with diverse backgrounds that they identify as gifted.
• 56:57
  Chicago does the same thing.
• 57:00
  They have programs.
• 57:01
  They've set it up so that even, even if you come from disadvantaged families, you.
• 57:07
  You have as good a chance to get into their gifted programs.
• 57:10
  That's great.
• 57:11
  So they've come up with ways to do that.
• 57:13
  And they're saying the case for gifted education isn't about privilege, it's about potential.
• 57:18
  Yeah.
• 57:19
  Every child deserves the opportunity to learn the way they can learn best.
• 57:23
  And.
• 57:24
  And we should redesign gifted programs to lift every child, regardless of their starting point.
• 57:29
  Yes.
• 57:30
  And I pulled out one comment that someone made regarding this piece who talked about the fact that, hey, you know, we homeschool because of this.
• 57:40
  He said, I'm not an anti vaxxer or even religious.
• 57:44
  We homeschool because there's no public school program for advanced students.
• 57:48
  And they could tell from a young age.
• 57:50
  They said at 3, my school son would tell people he was going to be an astronomer and a study cosmology.
• 57:59
  And he was going to study cosmology.
• 58:02
  I thought you meant cosmetology.
• 58:03
  I was like, he's going to be a makeup artist and an astronomer.
• 58:06
  No, an astronomer.
• 58:07
  And he was going to study cosmology.
• 58:10
  Cosmology, yes.
• 58:11
  And you know, you could tell he knew what he was talking about.
• 58:14
  And they said he wanted to read the adult biography of Wilbur and I.
• 58:18
  Orville.
• 58:19
  Right.
• 58:20
  And he was like super smart, obviously.
• 58:23
  And he said at 4, without a calculator, he could calculate tips at restaurants.
• 58:28
  So he said we didn't want to push him faster like private schools would.
• 58:33
  So we had.
• 58:34
  There was just no program for him.
• 58:35
  So they homeschool.
• 58:37
  That's.
• 58:37
  That's another reason why people homeschool.
• 58:39
  But anyway, they homeschooled their child.
• 58:41
  And so I love how he felt.
• 58:42
  Like he needed to qualify.
• 58:43
  Listen, I'm not a zealot and I believe in vaccines.
• 58:47
  I just, you know, I had to do it, you know, what can I say?
• 58:50
  No.
• 58:51
  But anyway, so I do think after reading all these articles, you know, some of the things that came out for me were like, you know, what's the best way to identify?
• 59:01
  I think we have to look at lots of things.
• 59:03
  Like we were just talking about not just test scores, but certainly not subjective either.
• 59:07
  You can't just like say parents and teachers.
• 59:10
  You decide.
• 59:10
  Yeah, you got this.
• 59:12
  No, there's no criteria.
• 59:14
  Listen, I.
• 59:14
  They used to, in.
• 59:15
  In New York years ago, they used to.
• 59:19
  To get into the schools that were hard to get into.
• 59:21
  They were.
• 59:21
  They were testing these kids or.
• 59:24
  But it was very loosey goosey and teachers could recommend whatever.
• 59:30
  And I remember trying to get you into a particular school and I was late.
• 59:35
  I was past the deadline.
• 59:36
  But when I walked into to the school, somebody that I knew was the work there, and she said, oh, this is for Skyler.
• 59:45
  Oh, I'll get her in.
• 59:46
  And it was like, so unfair.
• 59:48
  Yeah.
• 59:49
  You know, it was like, wait a minute.
• 59:50
  Yeah, this is wrong.
• 59:52
  I mean.
• 59:52
  Well, at the end of the day, like everything else, schools are run by people.
• 59:57
  Yes.
• 59:57
  And people are driven by human nature.
• 1:00:00
  And we are more inclined to be, you know, help a friend.
• 1:00:05
  That's who we are, you know, and like, at the end, it's.
• 1:00:08
  I think about this too.
• 1:00:09
  Like in courts, for example, Right.
• 1:00:11
  The verdict may not be correct and the punishment may not fit the crime.
• 1:00:15
  Because at the end of the day, the legal system is made up of people and people are fallible and people are imperfect and we often don't get it.
• 1:00:22
  Right.
• 1:00:23
  Yeah, we're doing our best, guys.
• 1:00:25
  Well, and we, we should try to come up with systems that are as fair as we can.
• 1:00:29
  Totally yeah, totally.
• 1:00:30
  And more than one, you know, system is good.
• 1:00:33
  Yeah.
• 1:00:34
  You know, should they be called gifted programs?
• 1:00:36
  I.
• 1:00:36
  Maybe it's a misnomer.
• 1:00:38
  Call them advanced learner programs.
• 1:00:40
  Do we need to rebrand?
• 1:00:41
  We need to rebrand.
• 1:00:42
  I think we need to rebrand the gifted program and we should follow Carol Dweck's advice and focusing on, you know, even for, for everybody for gifted, you know, kids, it's like, don't call your kid gifted.
• 1:00:54
  That's gonna mess them up.
• 1:00:55
  That's what we learned.
• 1:00:56
  Yeah.
• 1:00:56
  In some cases.
• 1:00:57
  Or it's just gonna inflate their ego, which messes them up in a whole different way and makes them annoying and they're.
• 1:01:02
  People in their school.
• 1:01:03
  Call them a dweeb.
• 1:01:04
  Exactly.
• 1:01:05
  So what do you want?
• 1:01:06
  And then, you know, schools, all, all students should be assessed.
• 1:01:11
  You know, don't just assess some that you pick.
• 1:01:14
  That's right.
• 1:01:14
  Everybody should be more fair.
• 1:01:18
  And you know, I also think people.
• 1:01:20
  Are like, people put so much moral judgment and like pathologized data and it's like, well, if they get tested and their score is bad, it's going to hurt their feelings.
• 1:01:30
  And it's like we don't need to think data as this.
• 1:01:33
  We just need to think of it as information.
• 1:01:35
  Right.
• 1:01:35
  You know, and with this information we can make adjustments to help everybody learn better.
• 1:01:40
  Place them in the class they should be in.
• 1:01:42
  Wherever that class is.
• 1:01:43
  Yeah.
• 1:01:45
  And again, I'll tell you, if your kid is a C student, not the worst thing in the world, that probably means they're a little good at most things.
• 1:01:52
  Which in so many cases in the real world is better than being absolutely excellent at one thing and horrific at everything.
• 1:01:59
  Everything else.
• 1:02:00
  Yeah.
• 1:02:00
  Yeah.
• 1:02:01
  Or their, or maybe their, their talents aren't in the things that are school related.
• 1:02:06
  Soft skills.
• 1:02:07
  It could be something else.
• 1:02:09
  You know, you could be, you know, a wonderful, you know, talker.
• 1:02:14
  You could have great skills, you know, emotional intelligence and get along with people very well.
• 1:02:19
  There's so many different ways to be successful in life that maybe can't be measured on a test.
• 1:02:25
  Yeah, I'm a prime example of this.
• 1:02:27
  That's right.
• 1:02:28
  You're incredibly successful.
• 1:02:29
  Successful.
• 1:02:30
  And you know, school was, was a, was hard for you.
• 1:02:33
  It was a slog.
• 1:02:34
  It was for you.
• 1:02:36
  And it, you know, and that's, you know, that is.
• 1:02:38
  And it is for many children.
• 1:02:40
  And you have to get your kids through school and you have to find their talents, which is what we were always trying to do with you.
• 1:02:47
  Yes.
• 1:02:47
  You know, and so, but there I Do believe having worked with at testing mom, with so many families of these very unusual kids for so many years, very bright kids, they need to be in a special classroom.
• 1:03:03
  Yeah.
• 1:03:04
  And you know, I think it's important and I think for society.
• 1:03:09
  Well, for them and you know, for them to get through school, I think there needs to be more for students like you.
• 1:03:17
  That was horrible for us trying to find the right place for you.
• 1:03:21
  They really just kind of like chuck you.
• 1:03:23
  They don't.
• 1:03:23
  They're not good.
• 1:03:24
  They just like, well, she doesn't fit the mold.
• 1:03:27
  That's a problem.
• 1:03:28
  Good.
• 1:03:29
  And we're like, okay, that's a whole nother podcast.
• 1:03:31
  Maybe we should do it one day.
• 1:03:33
  But.
• 1:03:34
  Yeah, but gifted kids, they belong in a special class.
• 1:03:38
  They, you know, they do.
• 1:03:40
  They do need to be taught in another way.
• 1:03:42
  Yeah.
• 1:03:43
  And there's nothing elitist or over privileged or whatever about that, but you gotta find them.
• 1:03:49
  Yeah.
• 1:03:50
  And you gotta identify all the kids.
• 1:03:52
  Yeah.
• 1:03:52
  At the end of the day, any kid can be brilliant.
• 1:03:55
  Absolutely.
• 1:03:55
  You know what I mean?
• 1:03:56
  No matter where they come from or what environment.
• 1:03:58
  Obviously certain environments foster things, but like at the same time, you know, anybody can be anything.
• 1:04:05
  That's right.
• 1:04:06
  That is, that is the beauty of America.
• 1:04:08
  That's right.
• 1:04:09
  Or the right.
• 1:04:10
  The world.
• 1:04:11
  I mean, you know, so anyway, I, so I thought this was a very interesting, you know, these three articles.
• 1:04:16
  Very interesting.
• 1:04:17
  Me too.
• 1:04:17
  Especially because you have so much experience with G and T programs and gifted kids.
• 1:04:22
  It like.
• 1:04:22
  Well, it felt like a fit for us.
• 1:04:24
  What felt like a fit for us?
• 1:04:26
  Well, yeah, well, I, I'm very.
• 1:04:27
  Something we could speak on with some level of authority.
• 1:04:30
  Usually I can't speak with any authority either.
• 1:04:33
  Just.
• 1:04:33
  I'm just like a mom or someone who's in.
• 1:04:36
  Works in education.
• 1:04:37
  But I, I do feel like I know a lot about this and you know, listen, it's not, it's.
• 1:04:44
  It's not a slam dunk for any kid.
• 1:04:47
  Like, it's so funny.
• 1:04:48
  I.
• 1:04:49
  When moms and or dads feel their kids are gifted, they are.
• 1:04:53
  Right.
• 1:04:53
  Their kids are gifted.
• 1:04:55
  We just have to figure out what it is they're gifted at.
• 1:04:57
  Yeah.
• 1:04:58
  Yeah.
• 1:04:59
  Like, I knew you were gifted.
• 1:05:00
  Gifted.
• 1:05:00
  You are gifted.
• 1:05:02
  Thanks, Mom.
• 1:05:02
  I.
• 1:05:03
  It's.
• 1:05:03
  Well, I.
• 1:05:03
  And it's true.
• 1:05:04
  You are.
• 1:05:05
  And so everybody has their gifts and we just have to help people find them.
• 1:05:09
  Yeah.
• 1:05:10
  And there's school giftedness, and that's what we're talking about here.
• 1:05:14
  But, but school giftedness just gets you through school.
• 1:05:17
  Yeah.
• 1:05:18
  And then you have to find you know, and you gotta be a person in the world, and what are you gonna do in the world, you know?
• 1:05:24
  Not take a bunch of tests, I'll.
• 1:05:26
  Tell you that for free.
• 1:05:28
  Anyway, guys, thank you so much for joining us for this episode of Other People's Parenting, and we'll see you next week.