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What I've Learnt - Natasha Sholl · WHAT I'VE LEARNT

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: Love and grief.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: Both a type of madness and both obsessively documented.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: Love wins the documentation stakes, but grief lately isn't far behind.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: Writers believe they can diminish the grief madness by finding the words of explanation.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: Explanation for the inexplicable.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: Metaphors for a place where there are none.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: Death is inventive and enjoys surprising us.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: Author Natasha Scholl was 22 when her partner Rob died.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: He was 27.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: She woke in the middle of the night to find he had slipped on top of her, making strange noises.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: Then his heart stopped.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: It is unimaginable.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: 22.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: About to begin a new life, living in a new apartment with a man she loved, and he dies in their bed.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: She's unable to save him.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: She doesn't believe he has died.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: She blames herself.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: The daughter of a doctor, the sister of two doctors, and she just couldn't save him.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: I lay down beside him on the floor, closed my eyes.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: I was conscious of the sound of him not breathing.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: I held his hand.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: His body was hard and cold.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: My body became hard and cold.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: The feeling leached from me.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: It disappeared from my fingertips.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: He's not here.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to say again.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: I disappeared into the carpet like liquid, a stain.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: My senses diluted.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: I waited for a sign, a feeling, for a message, for anything.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: His absence had a physical weight to it.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: It filled up the room.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: Well, her book, Found Wanting, an ode to love, loss, grief, and recovery, is a testimony to renewal and the capacity to heal in the face of an inexplicable pain.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: So we are so grateful to have Natasha join us on the What I've Learned podcast.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for having me.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: So this is a brave endeavour.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: And as I have a few close friends who actually recently have lost some loved ones in very sudden circumstances with very palpable grief and ever-present grief, I'm really interested that you had the courage to actually go back and revisit what must have been very difficult to do.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: How hard was it to recollect that sea of grief that writing this book and how essential was it for you as a sort of catharsis?
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's a really interesting question because, in some ways, I didn't have to revisit the grief at all.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's very present in my life.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that's also something that I was exploring in the book, the way that how we think grief evolves isn't necessarily what happens.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: And for a long time I thought that that meant that I was doing grief wrong because I still felt it.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: It was so palpable still, 16 years later.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's what I just had to lean into and explore the reality that yes, I have really hard moments and really hard days, and I have beautiful moments.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: And under underneath all that, there's still this hum of this other life that could have been, and neither one takes away from the other.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I sort of didn't have to go back in time because it's just so part of who I am now, I guess.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: That's really interesting.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's a very important reflection because what you're saying is it becomes actually almost part of life and your life, that it doesn't just dissipate into the ether of the universe.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it becomes intrinsic to who you are.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and you have to learn to sort of integrate it as opposed to push against it.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I did push against it for so long because I just thought it was incompatible with living a full life.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: And then at some point you just have to embrace it and accept that, not accept the death or accept what happened, but accept that you're a changed person and that that's okay because that's normal.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like it would be weird if you had this trauma or life-changing experience and then everything just went back to normal.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like no one expects that to happen.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: But yet in the face of death, we're still sort of surprised at how different everything is, not just that we're changed as a person, but our viewpoint is changed, like how we experience the world is completely different as well.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: How did it change you?
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: So, in what way?
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: Because speaking to people who are close to me recently, um, they feel completely transformed by the experience on many levels.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: How was it that how did it transform you and in what way?
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: I guess how I thought it should transform me was that I'd be, I'd have this sort of trajectory where you experience something negative and then you come out the other side a better person and you have this appreciation for life and you're grateful and resilient, and everything is, you know, that's sort of the story that we're told from Hollywood movies.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: But sort of, and yes, there are those moments where I just appreciate the tiniest things, and I'm so grateful for just the ordinariness of the everyday because that's such a contrast from where I'd come from.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: But at the same time, like, you know, I still get stressed over minor inconveniences.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: I still all those elements, but they haven't changed who I am as a person.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: I haven't come out this sort of, I don't know, warrior woman, amazing human being.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just as ordinary and flawed as I always was.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: But also I think it's changed the perspective that you have and the way that you experience the world.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: So in the shorter term, I guess it's, you know, things that once would have elicited a certain response, you just sort of feel almost numb.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's a lot of what I went through in the early stages.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think I was quite shocked by that.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like I just I thought I'd feel more because I'd been through so much, but I was just numb.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: I was completely shut off from the world.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I guess part of that recovery is learning to just feel again and trust the world again.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: Because when especially a sudden death as well, like you lose that trust in the world.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like you walk around at before that thinking, well, everything will work out.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: And then all of a sudden things don't always work out, and the sense of control that you think you have is gone forever.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: So that safety net is completely gone.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so, in what when you say that it numbed you, so was it did that make you numb to things clearly as is evident, you've married and you've gone on to have your children, and so you found some pathway through to reconnect with yourself on both levels, because you require that to some degree in order to marry, to love, to have children.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: So, was that something that took a number of years to re-engage, or is it something you just learned to switch, find that switch again?
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think it was other people being completely supportive and accepting of who I was.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: So it wasn't something that I could do on my own.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I tried a long time to sort of yeah, do things on my own and it just wasn't working.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think you can do anything in isolation.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: So having the support from a partner who just accepted me completely who I was, not just that I came with baggage or I came with a history, but that my history is very much part of my present and that my feelings for Rob are not something that would disappear.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we didn't break up.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: I lost him, he died.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'm never not going to be sad about that, I'm never not going to love him.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: And to have a partner who accepts that and holds space for that and loves Rob because I loved him.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's very complex, but from day one, he was all in.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: And if anything, I was the one who struggled with navigating that.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_00: I can understand that because you had to that you had to find that that trust to reconnect and not fear loss again.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: Is that right?
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: And just to yeah, to throw myself back into life again and accept that, you know, disaster wasn't around every corner and that, yeah, I was sort of in that fight or flight mode for so long that just sort of rebalancing was sort of tricky to navigate.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: But I I think your reference to community is interesting too, and to friendship, um, because I can see just around what I'm observing in the way that that that capacity for great communal love in the face of extreme tragedy is so powerful and so potent and actually goes to the center of our core humanity, doesn't it?
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so, in some ways, does that, as much as the universe does things you just cannot comprehend, like what happened with Rob, it also has this embedded in our, maybe in our DNA, the capacity to unite, to protect.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's such a powerful force.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I think a few people after they'd read the book said it was almost like a love letter to my family or a love letter to my friends.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_01: And it wasn't necessarily a book about grief.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it is, but it's not just a book about grief and loss, it's about that community and the way that other people can save us.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: I honestly don't think I would have made it through without the support and friendship and love that was offered to me from day one.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so that gives you renewed faith.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: I can see in the book and that sense that that there are people holding you through the journey.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: And that is so affirming and also in ways that you don't anticipate.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: What was some of the um, I suppose in that early phase, what do you think some of the greatest struggles were?
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: And obviously, we'll get to your your partner and your your marriage that came later.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: But what is it that at that very cold-faced time do you think?
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I know obviously people bring food and they literally physical requirements are, you know, to make sure that you're fed and that you're, you know, clothed and supported while you try and you know, wade through the mud of all the grief.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: But what was it do you think that when you started to feel the wheel turn to some sense of balance?
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: I think what I hadn't um expected at the time, like in the aftermath of that grief, I was so unprepared just for the physicality of it and the like the the intensity of it and anger, there was just so much anger.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like I I was just, I could feel it in my fingertips constantly.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like I was just yeah, bubbling up with anger all the time.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: And it was completely unpredictable.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: So at that time, you know, we're in our early 20s, my friends were in, you know, new relationships or they were single and having fun, and I was thrust into this widowhood that just wasn't um aligned with the stage of life that we were in.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: So not only did I not know how to navigate that because I was completely unprepared, but obviously my friends didn't either, like none of us were prepared for it.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: So I think just having those people who said, like however I reacted and responded, um, they just accepted it in a way that allowed space for me to process those emotions.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: So if I was reactive and angry, they didn't necessarily get, you know, offended or push me away.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: They were like, okay, well, what can we do?
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: Because what worked on one day wouldn't necessarily work on another day.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, if they gave me some space, I would feel rejected.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: If they were, you know, their 24-7, I felt smothered.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like there was just there was no right way, and I couldn't direct them what to do.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: And whatever they did felt wrong from both of our perspectives.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: So it was just such a big ask for them.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: But I guess just that acceptance and trying and trying again and trying again, and if that didn't work, to just show up and not just to say to me, We're here if you need anything, but just to keep showing up.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: And like after this book, you know, people had said things, told me things that I didn't realise at the time, either because I forgot them, because I was just in such a haze, or I just wasn't aware of them.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like one of my closest friends, Carla, said that she would call my mum almost daily, or my mum would call her, and it was this conversation is is she going to be okay?
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_01: And the answer was, I don't know, because that's how sort of severe things were at the time.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_01: But they were in contact and I didn't know that.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: So there were all these things happening behind the scenes where everyone was trying to, you know, rally the troops, I guess, in a way.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: And that, yeah, if I, if they invited me for dinner and I was like, how could you, how could you do that?
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: Why would I want to sit at a table of couples like that?
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, which is something that happened, they'd be like, okay.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: And then the next day they would try again and try something different.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_01: And however I responded and however I reacted, they never made me feel that that was abnormal.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: It was just, we will get through this together and we will be there no matter what.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, 22 is still very young.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: You're you're still just like yourself trying to navigate sort of the pathways of life.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so you were really forced to grow up pretty quickly because you had to draw on things that you probably and also you had experienced something, as you say, so traumatic.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: So, how do you think you, what are some of the things or lessons that you had to learn younger than let's say your counterparts?
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think that's a very good point.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: The way that you talk about your peers being very there, but they're also young and they're also in that sort of, you know, mode.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: I actually have a 22-year-old, so I know very much that age.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm thinking about it very literally, thinking resources that you had to find within yourself and grow up really quickly.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: So tell me how that I suppose was a positive and a negative, because there are positives to that too.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think in hindsight, I feel like I lost a massive chunk of my life.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: So um, all the things that are sort of normal that you go through in your early 20s, I kind of had to skip over that.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I didn't get to just be carefree and young.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_01: I just had to sort of jump to the next phase, which was being aware that things can get taken, like life can change in an instant.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: And that's not something that I sort of realized until it happened.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we say it, we know it as a reality, but until you experience it, I don't think we ever can really like know it, know it in our bones.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I think just I don't know, one of the lessons is probably just I think some of the things that we're taught, like don't go to bed angry or you know, life's short, like they're all things that we say, but they don't actually mean anything in the face of loss.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like what matters is our connection to people and how we show up for them.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know, but just having that connection to Rob that I know will never be broken, it took a long time to sort of accept that.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: And trusting life again was one of those things that was just really difficult.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: I had to relearn that, to relearn to just exist in the world and feel like this is who I am, and I'm a person outside of my grief.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: So I felt like all I was was grief girl.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: I was a person where something awful happened and I'd overhear people talking about it.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I'd go to a cafe and hear someone relaying the story of what happened.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, so in my it was difficult to sort of have an identity outside of that.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: So I guess that was also one of the lessons to be that you can be many things.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: You are not just this one thing that happened to you.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's a very valid point because I can see how it becomes all defining, but actually you are, you are right, you are many things, and obviously went on to be many things.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: Just going back to that, I find that fascinating, the the notion that you felt you'd lost a part of your youth that you could not recover.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: But I suppose in time, like for example, you obviously wouldn't have been out clubbing and you wouldn't have been out, you know, traveling in at that time.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: But were there ways that you accessed youthful elements later, maybe in time, that was some form of antidote antidote, you know, to that feeling of loss?
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I don't think there was an antidote.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think I just moved through it and had to redefine myself.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: So, like just before Rob died, I just gone backpacking and had all that sort of those kind of like early years experience and done all that.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_01: And we just moved in together.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we know we've been living together for a little while, but so I'd had that first like moving out of home experience, and I felt like that was the thing that defined me.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: And then I sort of skipped through quite a few years that were sort of defined by trauma and then came out the other side.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I sort of, yeah, I did lose the sort of the times where my friends were carefree.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't really have that experience, and it's not necessarily a negative thing in terms of it's just the foundation of who I am.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so did it make you value life in a different way?
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: Or did it make you just suddenly go, wait, this is you know, we just have to grab, seize the day, you know, that sort of I wish it did.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: I wish to say I'm just a really positive, upbeat, optimistic person now who just, you know, takes every opportunity.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: But I think that's another myth about these things.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like I wish someone who could say, you know, I'll just, you know, carefree in life's too short and I'll just take risks.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like I'm I'm risk averse, I stress about everything, I'm feeling anxiety, I'm not, yeah.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't, I wish it did.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: I and I think that's yeah, that's another myth that we sort of have that when you go through something negative, you come out the other side, this person with this brand new perspective and appreciation of everything.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and in some ways, yes, obviously there's elements of that, but I also think that's just something that came comes with age and perspective as well.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't think I'm any more, you know, resilient or positive than the next person just because I've been through something tragic.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: And how much after the um, I suppose the trauma and and the experience of anger and which as you talk about it it sort of it's intermittent.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: Has it has it become less pre present or prevalent over time?
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: Even though I know it's still there, obviously.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I guess that's the other thing.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's that sort of myth again about the stages of growth grief where you sort of you go through each one separately and then you come out the other side of it, um, which I think is a bit of a misinterpretation of how they were originally sort of set out, in that the stages you still go through them however many years later.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I still have moments um where I'm just filled with anger about how unfair the world is, or you know, I feel angry on behalf of the people who have died.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's not necessarily angry for, oh, this is my life, and I'm angry that I went through this.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: I'm angry on behalf of them, of who, of the things that they've missed out on.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I guess so, in that way, it's just changed shape.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I guess that's the thing about grief.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't necessarily disappear, it just changes shape.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm grieving the life that they could have lived and all the things that they didn't get to experience.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm assuming, and and I make this assumption, I may be incorrect, but did you find therapy or did you have somebody who was actually and was it helpful for you?
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: Because I know, for example, someone who it is helpful for, but another person who says, look, it's just I'm going through the motions, but really it's not helping me.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: So helping them on their journey.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: Did you find that professional mental health support useful?
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: Is the community geared enough towards providing some sort of support in that way when these things happen?
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think?
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think the issue is that you have to advocate for yourself and do the work.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: And when you're in this position of having lost someone, I think that overarching thing is just it's exhausting, like it's tiring.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: I know I didn't, I couldn't sleep because of you know the physical things I was going through.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I was sleep deprived.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: I was just exhausted from the act of grief.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: And then I was lucky in terms of I was in my early 20s, so I had people advocating on my behalf.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: I had um, you know, siblings and uh parents who were like, right, she needs to get some help and could try and find the right person for me.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: So I did see a therapist who was not quite the right fit, so they found another one.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: Had that been left to me, would I have necessarily been able to do the research and to get recommendations and to make the appointments?
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I couldn't even pick up the phone, that's how, you know, anxiety-ridden I was.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: I just couldn't take care of myself.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I had people advocating for me on my behalf to get me the help I needed.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I did end up finding, it took a few goes, but I found a therapist who I clicked with and who understood what I was going through.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: And even just having that marker each week or then it became each fortnight, just having a marker to be like, okay, I just have to make it through to this point.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: And that's also another element that got me through to say there is someone professional who is outside of my family who is not going to judge me, who has experience and can validate those feelings for me.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I guess my, you know, a few people have said to me, has writing this book felt like catharsis or therapy?
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, no, therapy is therapy.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: Mental health is, yes, there are other things that help, but getting professional help, I think, is so important.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're not seeing someone who's the right fit for you, keep searching, keep finding another avenue.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: And clearly something you made progress in some form because obviously you met your husband who you're married to now.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me a bit about how that came.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: To be.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'm interested on how you turned that wheel because that that's huge.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: And that's not something I ever planned for.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: After Rob died, I sort of said, well, that was it.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: That was my one great love story.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: I'm shutting off that as an option.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: It just was not on my mind.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: It was not something I was interested in at all.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then at some point, sort of I lost, I sort of, you know, lost that foundation and the connections to him.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: And it was this just this became this sort of one-sided relationship.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: And clearly, because he was no longer around, but it just was very, I was giving and giving and giving.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: And at some point, it was just like I need to re-enter life.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: And that didn't mean that I was ready to date.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: I was not ready to date at all.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then I'd met my partner Dean um a few years beforehand, um, and we could reconnected at a um at a house warming, and he sort of asked if I'd like to catch up sometime.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, no, that's not where I'm at.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's I'm not interested in that.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: But if you want to hang out as friends, sure.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like my friendship group had dwindled down considerably.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'd lost a lot of connections.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: I just thought, what's the harm in making another connection?
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: So he was very aware from day one that that's not was not on my radar.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: There was nothing, could never be anything between us.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I was also quite embarrassed to uh act to be pursuing anything, even a friendship with Emile.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: I just felt like that was not something that would be seen as acceptable by society.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like I was very worried about what people would think.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: So I was, yeah, very pushing him away a lot.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: And um, from that first night that I was went to his house, we just watched a movie.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: There's there there was no, it wasn't a date, it was very clearly not a date.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: But he said he remembers just looking over at me and just being like, This is the person I'm gonna end up with forever.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: And he just knew straight away.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I've got goosebumps.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: That's quite an amazing story.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: How long was this about a year later?
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: Two years later.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: And again, I was like, how soon is too soon?
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what is socially?
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I was just so worried about what's the right thing to do.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, no one else cared.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: It was no like no one else was living my life, no one had to experience what I was experiencing.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: At the end of the day, like people weren't really thinking about me, even though I thought I was the center.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I was just a side character for everyone else.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, so I was very concerned.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, we took things very, very slowly.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: We were very we were not dating for a very long time, getting to know each other.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: And everyone who I was connecting with at that time had been part of my story, so part of my grief and part of my relationship.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: So having someone new in my life who hadn't gone sort of through that time with me was sort of difficult to navigate.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: And again, it's that identity thing we were talking about before.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: It was like, who am I?
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what do I even enjoy doing?
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: How do I even connect to people if I'm not talking about Robert, if I'm not talking about grief and I'm not talking about how difficult things are, like what personality do I have?
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like I just felt like I sort of had stopped existing in the same way that other people were.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: So that was it was almost like just a re reintegrating back into society more than anything else.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: But in some ways, maybe that was a good thing because the grief girl, as you described it, which I think is a really apt description, in some ways, the fact that he hadn't been that and hadn't gone on that journey allowed you guys to develop something fresh, removed somewhat, as much as it could be, from all of the story, the backstory.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: You could you could actually start your next chapter, literally in some form.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um and he was always just very accepting of everything and would ask questions so that he could get to know Rob and he could understand our relationship.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, so any anything that was difficult at that time was purely coming from me and not him.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like he was amazing about it.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: And he was in his 30s then, so he was like he hadn't he lost his best friend um when he was in his early 20s in a similar way.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: His friend had a heart attack while he was in Tokyo, so it was a very sudden death.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: So he's familiar with that experience of sudden loss and the way that you don't just move on, like your life moves forward, but you always have that connection to that person.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I think his awareness of that and his love for his friend sort of helped us to just, you know, establish who we were as people and have that understanding.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: That is pretty powerful.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: The the fact that he'd been through a very similar experience, and therefore his empathy was was heightened, probably because he understood and his sense of what you were going through.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: But also he sounds like a pretty extraordinary person because he was prepared to to sit quietly, be loyal, and wait and see and help and nurture, you know, doesn't that's not so you know, that it's almost like such a blessing that yeah, it's pretty remarkable, especially in the circumstances.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I think for him, he had no expectation.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: So even when he when he looked at me and said, we're gonna be in each other's life forever, we're gonna spend our life together.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: I think part of him thought even if we don't end up together in a relationship, he just had this feeling that we would be in each other's lives one way or the other.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_01: So for him, it was that foundation of trust and mutual respect and that connection that was more important than anything else.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's like he just knew like this is someone who is important to me.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: And that was what was nurtured.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think it is just wonderful.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: And then you went on to have four children, which is which are all under the age of 12, as I mentioned in the intro.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: So you're one busy girl.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: So, what does that teach you about the capacity for renewal and the capacity to, as you say, have I always refer to it as that pocket of grief, which is, you know, in the back pocket, it's always there, but you continue to thrive in in many ways.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: What does that what has that taught you about that?
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_00: And and isn't there some, I mean, I know without being, you know, hyper optimistic, which is also not healthy, but there is a sense of hope, I suppose, is what I think you your book offers and what you in the way that you articulate your journey, which is is very clear, or a sense of hope for people who feel like they're in still in that tunnel.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think um for me, just re-establishing a kind of life for myself was what was important.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: And that for me took on the form of having a partner and having children, but in no way am I suggesting that that's the only way to have a fulfilled life.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that's yeah, certainly not what I want people to take away from it.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: But for me, the aspect of having children is I had to I have to bring them up, knowing that yes, tragedy can happen.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like they're very aware of that, they know my story, but at the same time, life can be equally beautiful and joy-filled at the exact same time that things can be hard.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_01: So they've been brought up from an early age to know that life can be hard and that the thing that matters is that you connect with other people and get through it together.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I think in some ways I was sort of the idea of having children, I was nervous about would I not be waking up every single day and just so worried about something happening because that's obviously a big part of anxiety and having post-traumatic stress disorder and all those things.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: And yes, that is an issue, but at the same time, they're just so joy-filled and naturally just always looking at the positives.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's not something that's parenting, that's just something of childhood delight and wonder.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: So being able to look through the world through their eyes, where everything is hilarious and everything is fun.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: So it's brought back that element of joy that I think was missing before.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: Children can do that, can't they?
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: They just they and that's the beauty of of what they bring to your life, that essence of, I suppose, hope and joy as you reflect.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: So, what about for you personally?
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: Have are you um have you found writing this book you've connected with other people with similar stories?
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I mean, I've read that you have, and how has that been for you?
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: Have you found that, I suppose, not vindicating, but a sense that what you've done, and it has been, I'm sure, hard to write and be and you had to be brave to do it.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: Has that been rewarding?
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's been pretty overwhelming.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_01: So when I'd written so the manuscript of this book, the first person who read it was my husband Dean.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the first things he said was, This is gonna help people.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I was so nervous in the lead up to it being published, like I think the week before, I just completely spiraled.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's gonna be out there, people are gonna read it.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_01: I think at that point my you know, immediate family hadn't yet read it, so I was just having a bit of a panic.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: And then he said, All you this book will reach someone who needs to hear it, and it will help them.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_01: And if you just help one person, that's all that matters.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: You've done your job, that's all you need to do.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: And within, I think it was 48 hours, I'd received an email from someone who had lost their partner.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: It the book was released in February, they'd lost their partner in January, so like the month before, in such early stages of grief, and they were just saying, I feel understood, I feel validated, I feel like I can give this book to my friends and say, I'm forever changed, and this will go some way to explaining who I am now.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: And like that was it, that was my one person, and the rest didn't matter.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: And however it was received by anyone else, all of a sudden just sort of dissipated.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_01: And yes, since that time, there have been other people, and not just people who've experienced sudden death and grief, but people who've had life-changing experiences or their life didn't quite go the way they'd planned.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like someone who um had a divorce recently said, I felt that shame of people suddenly knowing these things about me.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I read your book and I felt that same connection.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't grief, but it was the grief for the life I thought I would live, and I'm not now, and that I feel sort of validated in that way.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: So, like no one lives a life without some kind of upheaval.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: And absolutely, very true.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I actually think I think that's right.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: And in some ways, your capacity for articulation and your honesty, because it is quite a raw journey, like you know, it is one that once you, I mean, it's it's beautifully written.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: And once you, you know, it's a deep breath book, you know, it's it is, it makes you sort of inhale and just go, wow, you know, but there's a great sense of, I suppose the message I got from it was you're not alone, that it's it's it's a very comforting book in it in a in its honesty.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and when I was going through this initially, like in my last 20s, I think one of the overwhelming things was feeling completely alone.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I wasn't, but I didn't at the time, I just felt so isolated and so alone.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so I sort of wrote the book that I wish I had available to me at that time, and that's why it was so raw.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so I couldn't write it any other way.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: I just have to let it all out there because I mean, it's true, all I could do was write the truth of it.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's certainly a beautiful book, and I want to thank you so much for sharing your story and for taking the time to talk to us on the What I've Learned podcast.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_00: I know there will be many people listening to this uh and certainly buying the book.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you so much, and I wish you well with the next chapter.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me today with our quick talk.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: Pleasure.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for listening.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: The What I've Learned podcast will now be coming to you weekly with new episodes released every Tuesday.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_00: I'm blessed to have so many wonderful guests coming on the show.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: So check out my What I've Learned Instagram for updates.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: Meanwhile, stay tuned, kind and curious.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_00: Love you.