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Are Our Kids "Good Inside"? Christian Moms React To Dr. Becky Kennedy's Parenting Advice · The Family Teams Podcast

• 0:00
  Diving into secular descriptions of parenting and then trying to just tease apart good tactics and bad theology is really important exercise. I don't expect a secular psychologist to have biblical theology, but I think this is really confusing for Christians when they're consuming content like this. How do we discern like, wow, those tactics really work, that they sound really good, but all of a sudden you're building your entire life on bad theology.
• 0:25
  Hi, welcome to the Family Teams podcast. Our goal here is to help your family become a multi-generational team on mission by providing you with biblically rooted concepts, tools, and rhythms. Your hosts are Jeremy Pryor and Jefferson Bethke, and we can't wait to chat about all things family.
• 0:43
  Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the Family Teams podcast. We're going to do another episode around motherhood. And so I have, I love, of course, looking around the internet for various influencers and trying to understand how motherhood.
• 0:58
  We at Family Teams can interact with a lot of the popular content around parenting in general. So there is Dr. Becky Kennedy. She might be one of the most popular parenting experts right now that I see on YouTube. And that is through a scientific study of who tends to pop up on my feed more frequently than others since she's up there a lot.
• 1:19
  I think she gave a really famous TED talk back in the day. So she says things very clearly. She has some really interesting advice. And a lot of it I've found like, wow, I can see how it can be super helpful. But it is important to kind of like process these things through a biblical lens. That's kind of what I want to do in this video. So I am joined by my partner in crime, my wife, April. She's zooming in all the way from the other side of...
• 1:47
  The second floor. And then we've got Kristen Netting from the very, very center of Ohio. And then Jess Gagne, who I think Minnesota. Yeah. Yes. Awesome. Thank you all for joining us. So we're going to, I'm going to play a couple videos here. We're going to look at what she's recommending. So there's been a lot of, of course, great content she's put out in a lot of places.
• 2:13
  And one of the things she says in this, I found really interesting, just really interesting framing. So this first video is about the difference between making a request and setting a boundary. So I found this distinction really interesting. I think this is something that I've, as I've talked to both husbands and wives, moms and dads, this is a really complicated topic for Christians to engage in. Like, how do we think about...
• 2:38
  setting boundaries. How do we think about the use of power in our relationships with our kids? And especially they're going to talk a little bit about more in the teen realm, but also then, of course, in our marriages. This is a really, really difficult topic to understand. And so I'm always looking for a way to frame this properly. Because what do you do when your
• 3:04
  It's really complicated in a marriage when you feel like, okay, there are things that I need to somehow make clear. This is a big deal, not a little deal, a big deal. That's hard to figure out how to do. Like, you've already said something and nothing's changing. And so this is where things get complex. And so various people are presenting various tools and techniques. Probably the most popular thing.
• 3:28
  like tactic that I hear about is really summed up by this word boundary. And so anyway, I want to play a little bit of this so you guys can really understand how she's defining these words, because I think that that is really hard to do, actually. And she really tries to do that in a very clear way, which I appreciated. So I'll play this and then we will discuss it.
• 3:48
  So here's how I define a boundary, and I define it this way because then it's something I can actually assess and I can know if I'm setting one or not. So to me, a boundary is something we tell someone else we will do, and it requires the other person to do nothing. Okay. You guys can hear that okay? So a boundary is something that we're saying we're going to do, and it requires the other person to do nothing. Okay.
• 4:15
  It's a really interesting definition because I think she's the whole point of a boundary is if the other person has to agree to it, it's not our boundary. It's kind of her point. She's going to tease us out a little bit more. And so the reason I really, really like that definition is because we can then afterwards say, OK, well, the thing I did.
• 4:34
  Did I tell someone what I will do? And does it require the other person to do nothing? And almost always we say, no, like I actually kind of was asking my kid to clean up, you know, the clothes on their floor, which is something we all have to do. I would say that's a request. We make requests of our kids all the time. But learning to really differentiate a request from a boundary is critical. And it saves us from the frustration and the cycle of my kid doesn't respect my boundary. This person doesn't respect my boundary.
• 5:04
  Someone kind of, quote, might not respect my boundary, but if I am setting a boundary that is dependent on what I'm doing and it is not at all dependent on what someone else does, then I really retain a lot of power. And I really like that perspective. So what would be an example of like a boundary? So hopefully that makes sense. And it is the way she's framing this. And this is where she's saying what a lot of people are calling boundaries are really just requests.
• 5:29
  If you, if it doesn't trigger a response that's entirely within your control, then you've really made a request and they can just decide no, right? And the vast majority of what we do
• 5:39
  in marriages and in families as parents are make requests. And one of the things I think that a lot of, I feel in, in sort of the Christian world, I think that one of the perspectives that we have, I think on marriage oftentimes, especially with regards to wives in a marriage is that they only can make requests. So I wanted to like dig into that now in order to like understand that she gives an example here that I found really interesting.
• 6:05
  And a relationship that you have with your partner or your spouse and a boundary you might have with a teenager. So let's start with, I don't know, with your spouse, right? So let's say, let's start with like a moment of frustration. Where for you, Shane, like where are you frustrated with the spouse or where do you hear you're like, oh, people tend to like get frustrated, want to set boundaries in this way?
• 6:27
  People disagree on what to do on a Friday night. I don't know what you mean. Yeah. Great. That's great. Okay. So let's say, you know, I tend to be tired at the end of a week and I want to go to bed early and my partner's like, but I really like to have dinner together and I want to have time together. But I'm so frustrated because I'm like, my husband comes home at like nine o'clock and expects me to like cook dinner then with him. And all of a sudden it's 10 and I'm exhausted and I want to connect too. Right. But...
• 6:53
  Here's the situation. So I think what we might do is we might say, I really need you to be home by 7. Like, can you get home on 7 on a Friday? And then that's a place where we could cook dinner together. And then let's say my husband rolls in at 9. And I'm like...
• 7:06
  What the heck? Like I told him to have dinner at seven and like he didn't do it and he never listens to me. He doesn't respect me. And we tell ourselves all these stories. To me, I would say in that situation, I was making a request of my husband. I was making a request. And most of the time in our relationships, by the way, we can't always set boundaries. Like we do make requests and hopefully our relationship is strong enough with someone.
• 7:26
  which we can talk about, where they would, you know, when they can honor our request, right? But I'm making a request because the success is dependent on my husband coming home at seven, which he just did not do. Here's a very different approach, which I don't always recommend taking, but sometimes we have to take if we feel like we keep getting in situations where we're kind of really unsatisfied. I'd say...
• 7:49
  Okay. So this is where it gets interesting. So you've, you've hit loggerheads with your husband. He you've made a request is very reasonable. You've done it multiple times. You've explained what you want. He's not doing it. What do you do? Is there another lever you can pull to make clear? This is a really big deal. I'm not going to back down. And so she's like, here's a, here's what a boundary sounds like.
• 8:12
  hey, the last couple of weeks, we talked about you getting home at seven or trying to, you keep getting home at nine. Look, I don't want to end up in that place again where then I get tired and I get resentful and we get in this fight. I just want to be very, very clear.
• 8:24
  I would love to have dinner with you tonight. I really would. And I know for me, if you're not home by 7, cooking together and having that connected moment, it just is not going to then happen in a way that feels good to me. So if you get home by 7 tonight, I'm so excited that we can have dinner together. And if you come home at 9, I get it. You will probably find me having already had a bowl of cereal and then reading in my bed, and I won't be able to make dinner. And we can talk about it again next week. So it's literally laying out what I will do.
• 8:54
  And then let's say my husband does get home at night. I might still be upset. I mean, I feel like this is such a bummer, you know, but I'm not going to feel so resentful. I'm not going to feel so angry because I laid out two situations based on my needs. And either way, I have kind of a path I can walk down that's within my control. I like that a lot. OK, so I want to talk about this one first. Yeah.
• 9:20
  And there's a few things about this. I'm just really curious what you guys think about this, because I mean, my first observation that just may be framing this conversation is that the example she used makes sense to me because it's two individuals trying to get their needs met in a very equal way.
• 9:35
  where they're both probably living individual lives. Whereas in families, especially family teams, the mother is oftentimes not making a request because it's something that she's doing to get her needs met. She's actually trying to help shape the culture of the family. And dad getting home at nine...
• 9:50
  mean something totally different when you've got a bunch of kids sitting around the table waiting for dad to come home and you're not trying to do this for yourself or your needs you're trying to actually fulfill what you're both are trying to do for the family so so that adds a layer of complexity that i'm just like does this work in in a situation in which there's there's a whole family and maybe lots of people whose needs are trying to get met so and then then there's just of course the
• 10:17
  the challenge that she's describing in terms of like, how, how do you, how do you interact or how do you, maybe the, the word I always think of is how do you turn up the volume when you're not being heard? And there's something that's actually hurting you, hurting the kids, hurting the family, maybe not even aligned with what your husband's vision is. So we're going to talk about this, you know, theoretically, obviously, but if you guys have thoughts or examples or whatever, I've never been a wife. I've never been a mother. I have no idea what this feels like. Exactly. I've been, I've been under authority. Yeah.
• 10:45
  In many situations in my life where I've run into this issue, but never in the context of a family the way she's describing. And so I just I want to understand what this feels like or how you think through this. So does anybody want to start diving into this one? I'll start, I suppose. Although this is really a lot to take in and think about in my context, I think.
• 11:10
  To the credit of setting boundaries, which I've never really thought about the household functioning with boundaries. I don't know. That's something I've ever considered before. But I think that, you know, showing respect in a partnership is a really good thing.
• 11:31
  notion and and the way that she's talking about thinking through that I think is is good and it makes me think of having meetings with my husband and identifying problems or sticking points of functionality and how we're showing up for each other and how the week blows and all of that and
• 12:01
  is thinking just about herself. He's obviously in this scenario just thinking about himself. And so how would that work as we're thinking about common goals and long-term trajectory? He probably maybe in this scenario doesn't have those things identified. And so in the family team's context, I just...
• 12:26
  Don't know about these both. Yeah. Setting boundaries. I do appreciate that the way she talks about it sets her emotional things aside. She's not like overtly reacting in that moment, obviously, and kind of speaking her needs. But...
• 12:45
  Yeah. I think, I think, yeah, I think that the, your point, Kristen, yeah, her, a lot of this is, it's assuming a high level, high level of individualism, but also she's trying to not become resentful. And I think that that it's like, a lot of this is like, what are the tools that,
• 13:04
  that exists for wives and mothers to not become resentful when things are breaking down in some way. And so like Kristen, you said, part of what we recommend is having regular meetings, having deep conversations, making sure you are aligned, doing that work. Another one that we talk a lot about is to actually demonstrate that both of you care about the family team.
• 13:26
  more than you do your individual needs. And so if you're building something together, because a lot of times when I think about this in a team context and everything she said makes a lot of sense if you're just a couple of individuals like friends trying to work something out. But imagine being on a team and having a quarterback, you know, and the coach is just continuing to push and continue to make decisions.
• 13:46
  And you're like, you know, this doesn't work for me. And so I'm going to set a boundary now. And the boundary is going to look like, you know, I'm not going to throw the pass if you do that. I mean, it's like, it's really hard to imagine because there is a power dynamic that exists when you're on a team and everyone understands that it has to exist. And if you choose not to respect the person who's actually leading the team, then, you know, a lot of what you really, the only, the only thing.
• 14:12
  thing that you have once you've expressed yourself properly to your coach and tried to get him to understand or her to understand it's like you have to switch teams now in a marriage you can't do that you have to stay in and so this this this is where this is why i think having tools and trying to really get into the details of how this works is really complicated so april how about you how does how does what does this stir up for you
• 14:39
  Well, I'm kind of with Kristen in that I almost like I can't really understand what she's even saying because I don't understand her framework at all. I've never thought of the word boundaries when it comes to my children or my marriage. So I don't know if I'm going to be super helpful in this.
• 15:11
  like not getting resentful. I think I really agree with what Kristen said about the meeting. I think that that's a great place to be. I think if you, another tool is like having a mission, because I feel like, you know, as a team,
• 15:27
  If you are trying to accomplish something, you know, if you're using the sports analogy, you're trying to like get a touchdown or score a point or whatever, then you both understand that that's the goal, that that's the thing you're working towards. And so you, you might have conversations about how to get there or like which one of you is going to do this or that so that you can get to the goal.
• 15:54
  end zone but it's very much like a collaborative conversation and conversation i think probably is the key about like how to achieve that goal or be on that mission and then having the the meeting as like a regrouping like how how was that like the post game meeting or something like okay so how was that how'd that go well i mean i feel like that's where you could say like well i'm
• 16:23
  You did come two hours late. So that made it a little stressful. I had to kind of keep the kids occupied while I was waiting for you or, you know, whatever the thing is to be able to say those things in a place where maybe your emotions aren't riled up, not in the moment. It's like post game meeting where you can say like, I think that maybe if we tried this or this, it might be better. Can we try that next time?
• 16:48
  So it's more of like a conversation to me than like a boundary or like a threat that I'm holding over someone's head. Or like, I think one way I really struggle is with manipulation. So I want, I very much in my flesh want to say like, if you don't do this, I'm going
• 17:05
  And then I'm going to do this or other way around, you know, like I, I'm just going to, if you make me feel resentful, then I'm going to make you pay for it or something like that. And so I think in my flesh, I can kind of bend towards that. But I think if we're trying to work together as a team to accomplish something, we both want that thing, then we're going to want to make sure the other person is successful at what they're doing. Yeah.
• 17:32
  Yeah. Yeah. That's helpful. Yeah. It's difficult to find those, like what, what are, what do we, what do we, how do we work through resentment? And a lot of this is like you said, April, it's, it's the, it's a framework problem. So basically the kind of modern Western marriage is we are both.
• 17:49
  We fell in love and we're in this as individuals to get different needs met from a partner. Like that's kind of the framework. And so, and so we, if, if you're, I'm sharing very honestly what, what my needs are. You're sharing very honestly what your needs are. And it's an ongoing negotiation to try to make sure that nobody is kind of getting, you
• 18:08
  getting way more than the other, like that we're respecting each other as adults and in our attempts to like extract from this union, what each of us as individuals needs. And that is so fundamentally different than leading a team and saying we have a goal and collectively we're on the same side of the table trying to achieve something. And, and as we do that, because we have the same goal, you know, we, there's going to be
• 18:34
  The question that is going to settle disputes is how does it serve our goal as a team? Like, what are we, are we trying to like, it's not like just your needs met or my needs met. We're trying to accomplish something together. I think this is so different. And part of why I wanted to bring it up is because there is so much conversation around
• 18:56
  boundaries in our culture psychologically. And it's in this framework of you're in these relationships to get individual needs met. And I am trying to understand, number one, is that appropriate language for a family team? And number two, if it's not, how do we deal with the resentment that could happen when you are feeling constantly like you're not getting your needs met? There's also kind of like a missing party situation.
• 19:23
  And when you're, when you're in a system, let's say you have a coach who is, is leading a team and is really causing issues in the team. And multiple team members are noticing it. Multiple people are frustrated. All these assistant coaches, he doesn't have absolute power in any kind of coaching scenario. You can always go and talk to the principal of the school, right? You can talk to the president of the university. There are people above the head coach even. Yeah.
• 19:50
  And one of the things we do every year during our festival, we have a festival season where we celebrate Sukkot. We watch this movie called Ushbazim. And in that movie, it's about a couple and it's a modern day movie, but the couple are ultra Orthodox Jews. And basically through the course of the movie, they become completely like their horns just lock over issues.
• 20:14
  And eventually it gets so bad that the wife goes to the rabbi and it's like very serious. And she's making her case to the rabbi and the rabbi then goes to the husband and says, Hey, I told your wife to go and spend some time with her parents.
• 20:29
  while we work out. And so it was demonstrating within a community that when you have a lot of authority given to the husband, the husband also has to be under authority somehow. We don't really have that mostly in the Christian world. I think this is really difficult on families. So one of the things I'm teasing out is, is that a necessary part of a structure where this could happen? Because we've all heard situations in which like,
• 20:53
  You know, a husband goes off the rails. And so just to say the wife has no recourse ever because they're a team, that seems like it's going too far as well. But how do you preserve what God has designed for the family in a context where that's happening? So, yeah, Jess, what does this turn up for you?
• 21:12
  I don't know. I totally agree with what Kristen and April said. And maybe this is a little bit of a rabbit trail. But one of the things that came to my mind hearing the interview was just the thought of training your kids, like fishing different scenarios that we're currently working on with our kids. And I'm like, okay, so if I'm training this, like,
• 21:31
  I don't know. It was just, it made it more confusing in my mind of having the request in the boundary, because in my mind, I'm like, okay, but the Lord says like, we need to train our children. And so I'm like, okay, this is a sticky point where we're working through right now. And so like, here's how we're playing out this scenario. And here's what that looks like.
• 21:50
  But it just seems different than in the context of request and boundary. Then I was just confused of like, well, where does training fit in? If we are a family team and this is our mission, this is where we fight the Lord's calling us, then that might look completely different than our next door neighbors. So I don't know if that makes sense or if that's, I don't know, helpful in processing it all out. One of the things that training assumes is.
• 22:14
  is that the person who's doing the training has in their heart or in their mind some kind of ideal that they're trying to move the child towards. And this is also true for husbands and wives. Like you see in scripture that husbands aren't to be trained by their wives, they're to be trained by older men. And that it says very specifically in Titus 2,
• 22:35
  that wives are not, it never describes a wife being trained by her husband, but by older women. And this assumes that there is sort of a trajectory of how to function within this family system, which means that we have to share a family system, which means there has to be some ideal or something that we're all aiming at, not that we're all
• 22:55
  anybody's going to achieve the ideal, but in the same way that, again, I think a sports team is really helpful. If you have, if you have a coach who's really underperforming in some kind of way, there would be an assumption that if like, is there any place you can go for more training as a coach? Like, this is what you really want to do with your life and you really feel you enjoy it, but you're, you're missing, you know, tools or tactics to help you achieve the
• 23:20
  what you could achieve in this framework, then, then you need to find people who there, there is a clear ideal. There is like, when you can see it in a sport, it's, it's winning the game. And I think that this is where once you erase any idea that, that family, a family system is articulated in the Bible, then training becomes impossible for, for people from other families to help train. So I know April, you've thought about this one a lot recently. I don't know if that serves up anything for you.
• 23:48
  Are you talking about like the older women training the younger women? Yeah, it seems like in a context where, yeah, you see a husband and wife and one or the other of them is clearly not progressing. They're doing things that are really insensitive to their spouse and not in the best interest of the team. Yeah. How does training fit into that?
• 24:11
  Yeah, I feel like one of the best things a wife can do when her husband is like maybe kind of like repeated, like maybe in a rut or repeatedly kind of like not on the same page or something is to pray for older men around him to step up to the plate. Because I think that that's really where men can rise to the challenge is instead of like his nagging wife like saying,
• 24:38
  wearing him out and finally, okay, he does the thing. Like having an older man call him into something higher than himself and help him see that, like a bigger picture of what's going on and training him how to do those things. And maybe even pointing out like, hey, this is a super selfish behavior. You need to repent of that.
• 24:59
  Like, it'd be really hard for a wife to be able to say that to a husband and for it to go well. I think the reason that doesn't go well is because it's not really the order that God put down in Scripture for us to follow. And so I think that having an older man speak into a younger man's heart is kind of the way God set things up. And we need our husbands to...
• 25:21
  be being challenged and it's not you know this i'm speaking to a believing in a believing context that that's what makes sense for us is that older older men need to and and the way unfortunately the turk hasn't really done us any favors with this either because i think we have gotten away from this a lot and so there's a lot of the older generation might not necessarily be
• 25:49
  Counting this as a priority for their time. Because we have this retirement culture, we think like as we get older, like we're working towards more and more freedom of responsibility and getting away from people needing us. We're going to get away from our job. We're going to get away from our kids once they turn 18. We're just going to get away from, we're going to fill our house and get a condo so we have less responsibility. But really, I think scripture called us into like taking more and more on.
• 26:14
  And part of that is like taking on the responsibility of those younger than us, because now we finally have some wisdom to offer. Then we need to like turn around and like frame people who are coming up behind us. And that's just the continuation of like this selfless nature of what Jesus is calling us into.
• 26:33
  Right. I think one of the hidden challenges to the way Dr. Becky Kennedy is describing the answer to this is, well, what do you do if your husband decides, oh, great.
• 26:45
  You're eating cereal in the bed by yourself on Friday night. I can get way more work done now. And so the vision, you know, he's like, this is like a huge win-win. Like you've set a boundary and I kind of like your boundary. And I've seen a lot of marriages where this starts to happen, where somebody starts setting boundaries and says, you know, I'd love to spend time with you, but...
• 27:03
  You know, I, I, you know, like, yeah, it's not just a busy night. It's like a busy season. In fact, I just picked a really busy career. It's going to be a busy life. Like, I hope you really like that cereal you're eating because you're going to be eating a lot of it. That's that, that seems inevitable unless you have the same vision for what you're trying to build. This is why I think to destroy the ideal for what a family is, but you create this very bizarre thing, which is like you're, you get married, you make a covenant with somebody, but neither of you knows. Yeah.
• 27:34
  Where are these things going? And so you're yoked together, but you don't know if you're really five degrees apart from each other in terms of what you're aiming at. And so, man, five degrees apart will put you in vastly different countries in 20 or 30 years if you keep moving in directions that are slightly off. And this is where I think this is really the root cause of so much divorce is that.
• 27:55
  is that if we can't agree at the beginning, I mean, marriage is hard enough, right? Making a covenant that's lifelong is risky enough without actually having anything that we know that we're aiming at. And so this is why I think we weren't meant to be so confused about that because there really is no tactic
• 28:12
  That's going to solve that problem. Like that problem has got to be solved through access to divine revelation that tells us what a family is, what a marriage is, what we're aiming at. And then surrounded, like you're saying April, by a community of people who can, you can help reinforce that and train us in that. I don't, I don't see any other, any of their pathway. So yeah, Chris, anything else you want to add before we hit one more, one more topic?
• 28:36
  I just keep thinking about the lack of continuity or common vision in our communities. And even in between closely aligned families, maybe we parent completely different, our values in and.
• 28:53
  methods of parenting and disciplining and training and whatever are completely different. And it really is a difficult and sticky problem to even have a commonality. I really just long to be in community with other people that have common views and who, you know, can come together and call my husband up. And man, when he is on fire towards something, that is going to be joy.
• 29:22
  Like, I am right there with you, honey. Let's go. Let's do it. It's a pleasure to, it's just so good to see him going after something with the family mind, you know, leading us. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. That, I hear what you're saying. So Kristen's just describing part of what's happening is if the scripture don't, does not give us a common understanding.
• 29:47
  idea of sort of family systems, then we're all parenting differently. We all have different marriages or we're leading our families in different directions and it's difficult to understate how difficult that's going to make being a community and helping one another in any way. And I think that, and the fact is scripture does give us a ton of details about the kind of family and the kind of kingdom, kingdom culture God wants within a home. But it's something that because the culture through our obsession with individualism
• 30:17
  hates that kind of stuff. Like we want to just say, no, we, we, we need to be able to have access to the blueprint. We don't know that in doing that, we've destroyed the ability for there to be this continuity, this community, this ability to like call each other up and sharpen each other. So.
• 30:34
  Yeah, that's really helpful. I really wanted to tease that out. I'm glad we did that. Just like kind of waded into that, that these principles because they're so popular right now. And she even says the beginning of this interview, this is her favorite thing to talk about, the requests and boundaries thing. And I was like, okay, it'd be really, it's really good for us to like figure out how to think through this. Now, this second one,
• 30:54
  She says something else in the middle of the interview that I wanted to tease out. And it really has to do with, she talked about the heart and soul behind her whole method of parenting begins by believing that your child is good.
• 31:07
  And she explains why it's so important to believe that your child is innately good. And so I, I wanted just to hear her argument for why that's so important. As, as people who believe in scripture, it doesn't seem like that's what the Bible is saying. And does this mean that the, the things that she's the fruit or the things that she's trying to create within her own home, do we not have access to that? Because we have sort of a disadvantage by thinking that our kids really have a sin problem innately within them. Right?
• 31:35
  as scripture described. So I'll let her kind of tease out her beliefs about this. And then we will discuss that. Common thing that I see with my kids, and I'm sure other kids, and it drives me insane. There's like a few triggers I have. And one of them is laziness. And the other is sort of in that situation, I'll relate it to sort of like they come home, they get a bad score on a test or an assignment. And
• 32:03
  they blame something exterior to themselves. The teacher didn't communicate clearly. I saved the document, but it didn't save my edits. And it's absolving them of sort of responsibility
• 32:21
  and fault in that moment. And, and how do we deal with that as parents where it's like, cause that, that trait, that single trait, if it takes root can be so detrimental in life where you become a victim of circumstance instead of the master of your circumstances.
• 32:38
  I'm so big on personal responsibility too. And so that's like triggering for me too from like a personal standpoint. So I join you in that. So I think first, and I always think this is true, like we have to understand before we intervene. Like that to me, every workshop I do, that's like, you know, about problem behaviors or sleep or, you know, rudeness. Like that's always the first section. And parents, it's always so interesting because they'll take.
• 33:00
  this workshop and they'll say, oh, my goodness, like everything feels better in my home. And I'm like, I don't even get to the strategies yet because we underestimate how many of our issues with our kids or any relationship actually comes from not understanding. And as soon as we understand something, it's amazing. It's like we immediately feel better. So I think first it's like, well, why is my son doing that? He why is he saying, well, it didn't save or while the teachers asked all these questions that they said wouldn't even be on the test. Right. They say something like that.
• 33:26
  Right. And I think it's really important to get curious there. Like, why would why would my kid do that? And to me, the reason like everything I do, the company membership is called Good Inside is because to me, that's like the principle that allows us to be curious about our kids. Our kids are good inside. So why would my good kid kind of like totally shirk responsibility?
• 33:44
  Okay. Just to like, obviously you can see the way she's framing this. One of the things I really appreciate that she's describing is the importance of curiosity and parenting that we don't jump to conclusions too quickly. We actually understand our kids, but she says what fuels the desire to understand your child is the theological belief that they're good inside. And I want to say, you guys have to understand, anyone who's listening to this, there's nothing scientific about what she's saying right now.
• 34:09
  That is a theological belief. You have to have, it is a axiom of faith. She doesn't know. She can't open her child and see the goodness inside of them. She doesn't know if they're good inside. She believes by faith that they're good inside. That's a theological statement. And so we also have theological beliefs. Our theological beliefs are based on the story of scripture. Yeah.
• 34:28
  And the story of scripture really says something different. And so I really want to wrestle through the tactic that she's using, which I think is really helpful. Get curious about what your kid's problems are. And the foundation of that tactic she's claiming is the belief that your child is innately good.
• 34:43
  And it's really separating who they are from their identity. They're a good kid from certain behavior, which is something that happened. Right. When we are most frustrated with our kids, it's because we've collapsed the two. My kid is just kind of like a kid who doesn't take under responsibility versus I have a good kid who is struggling with something. So I think one of the best ways I can be curious about my kids is, well, why would I do that?
• 35:06
  Why would I be in a situation where instead of being like, oh, my goodness, I was late and I should have left earlier. I was like, you have no idea about the traffic and you have no idea about the car in front of me. Oh, my goodness. Right. So I'm just making this up now. But oddly enough, I think I would do that when I felt so bad. I felt both simultaneously like so guilty and so unable to.
• 35:30
  To like tolerate that guilt. And this is actually going to circle back to the idea of separating identity and behavior. Oddly enough, kids shirk responsibility and kind of seem unwilling to reflect on their role of things when they equate a certain outcome with kind of being an indication of who they are. So let me like say that in a better way.
• 35:53
  Yes. So you talk about shame, right? So a behavior is triggering the belief that I am a bad person and I am struggling now with the shame. And so I have to cover up the things that I've done behaviorally, because if I admit that I did those bad things, that that makes me a bad person. I'm defenseless against that accusation.
• 36:14
  a way that's like clearer. So like if your son thinks like I got it, let's say I got like a whatever it is, a 70 on this test. If when he gets a 70, what happens inside him is like, I'm so stupid. I can't believe like I got a 70 in math that will make him tell the story. Well, my teacher asked about things that were unfair because he can't tolerate the idea that he's like a stupid kid in math. Nobody can tolerate that idea.
• 36:36
  And actually, so the first step is like trying to help our kids separate. Wait, like you're a good, smart kid who clearly like got a not so great thing. Great on the test. Right. And when we're able to separate who we are from what we do, we're actually remarkably able to take responsibility for our behavior because it's no longer an indication of our identity. All right. This is the classic how to get saved without the gospel.
• 37:00
  How do you somehow overcome the problem of shame? You have to have a theological conviction that you're a good person. So there should be no shame. There is no shame. There is, you are a good person. Well, I just, I do, I do bad things. I just murdered somebody else. No, you are a good person. I know that you, you, you exhibit the behavior of murder, but you are a good person, in other words, for this to be a theological conviction, it's gotta work for everyone, right?
• 37:24
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• 37:44
  And so I'm just telling you guys, this is really dangerous, but the tactics that she's describing are dead on, in my opinion. The curiosity, the separating behavior and identity, all of those things are right on. I think we all have to do those things, but she does not have the ability to do those things without the theological belief that the person is born good.
• 38:07
  And so now this person does not need to be saved. So, and what I want to do is just kind of discuss with you just how do you mother, how do you parent, how do you raise children without access to the tool that she's using, the central tool of believing that they're fundamentally a good person? If you don't believe that, is shame going to crush your children? Like, why would you be curious about...
• 38:32
  the origin of their behavior, if you think that they're somehow bad inside, you know, using her language. Any thoughts? What does this serve for you guys? Hey, go ahead, April. Well, I...
• 38:45
  happen to believe that children, that all humans are born with a sin nature. And so it doesn't take long for it to show up in our little tiny people. We don't have to teach them how to hit or bite or tell their first lie.
• 39:04
  it happens and so i think that like you said a lot of the things she's saying like yes i believe we should teach our kids to take responsibility for their action and i think that part of that is understanding like you struggle with sin like you we all are fallen and so we are all going to struggle with this
• 39:27
  nasty thing called sin and i think the reason people don't want to admit that is because they also don't want to admit that they need saving that they need a savior and that it's not them and no matter how hard we try we can't bridge that gap so it just takes a lot of humility to be able to say i need help i need a savior if i'm left on my own it is not going to be good i will look out for number one i will
• 39:56
  climb like claw my way to the top i will you know scratch for survival like this is the human nature the human condition is to kind of look out for ourselves that survival mode and so without the
• 40:14
  It's, it's hard. It's very hard to know how to, you know, live life, how to have a day without having, like, you could just drown. Right. I think that it's, we're not supposed to live in our shame. Jesus took that on the cross for us. And so hallelujah, we have like a way out, but we have a way out because someone took our place. Right. Because there are acts that are shameful.
• 40:43
  I know that that's a very, very nasty thing to say these days, but we, there are things that you can do, a behavior that is shameful and should be dealt with as a shameful act. And it comes from a heart that is, you know, wrestling with sin.
• 41:04
  Yeah. Yeah. It's a totally different sort of mind mindset to say, I'm basically a good person and these are glitches in my otherwise perfect, you know, if I, if I could somehow just reflect all of what's inside of me, it would just come out as perfection morally versus no, I'm fundamentally, I'm ashamed of who I am. And that's why I desperately need the gospel because as a shameful person,
• 41:30
  God sent his son to die for me. He loved me while I was a sinner. And that is the grounding of my worth. It doesn't come from something innate to me. Look how amazing I am. This, to me, also can create enormous narcissism to believe that I'm innately good and that everything is just a glitch or a misunderstanding or something.
• 41:54
  That doesn't actually help me overcome the fundamental problem that I have, which is that there is evil and good inside of me battling it out. And ultimately, because of where I come from, because of the fall, that evil, those evil inclinations are going to ultimately win out unless I'm saved, unless I'm somehow rescued from this state.
• 42:13
  And certainly at the identity level where I need to believe that fundamentally I am a worthy person of love. Am I worthy of love? There is no good way to answer that question that I know outside of the gospel without jumping or making a theological assertion that you don't know to be true. And that's so much evidence to the contrary, because you're going to eventually have a kid.
• 42:34
  who isn't going to believe this, isn't going to hold to your religion of everyone's good. They're going to see either in the world or in themselves evidence to the contrary, and they're going to come to other theological conclusions. And your tactics here are going to sort of backfire. And this happens to a lot of children because they don't realize that, no, you are fallen and you need a savior. And the only reason that you're valuable isn't because of the inside of you. God loves you.
• 43:02
  God did create and gave you his image. That makes every human life valuable. But morally, we're morally bankrupt outside of the gospel, according to the scriptures. And none of our children are going to escape the identity implications of that unless they come to faith in Jesus and what he did for them on the cross. So this is such a collision. I really wanted to tease this out with you guys because...
• 43:26
  there is just a flood of sort of secular tactics that are founded and that are rooted and being articulated from bad theology or just theology that is anti-Christ theology, anti-Christian theology. And it's very difficult, I think, for so many of us to parse this out, because a lot of times they share tactics that are awesome and
• 43:48
  Like I said, two of the tactics she described there, I think are great. Get curious. Don't get angry. I think that's such an important, an important statement. And, and, and by the way, she said the reason she gets curious is because she knows that her child is good.
• 44:03
  I'll give you another reason to be curious because you love your child. Because when you were a sinner, someone loved you in that state. What can also cause you to get curious is because you love them. And because you know that through the gospel, they can be saved. And that love is what constantly persistently helps you to help
• 44:20
  your child come out of the sin that they are wrestling with. There are multiple motivations that will help you get curious and have the patience that you do need, the forgiveness you do need to parent a child over all the years that we're all going to be doing that. But bad theology isn't necessary as a foundation for the tactics she's describing. Go ahead, Jess, what are your thoughts?
• 44:43
  I was just immediately brought back to the garden as she was talking about like this shit, like the shifting of blame kind of like, oh, my teacher didn't like explain this all to me or all my flash drive. Like it didn't save it. And I was just like, oh, my goodness, this is not a new story. Like we are so good about shifting our sin onto. Oh, but it was that person's fault. Like clearly. Yeah.
• 45:09
  fit them. And just made me then think of how the Lord responds in those instances. Like he comes as a father and he is curious, like, where were you? Like, why were you hiding? And then goes into like, oh yeah, so let's have a conversation about this. What does, like, what did you do? And there were still consequences for that. But yet the love of the father, he like, didn't leave his children. Like, oh man, you messed up. Like, bye. Like, does that work?
• 45:38
  So I just think that genesis, like that, the gospel, yeah, just helps clarify that. And yeah, it gives us hope in the midst of, yeah, those hearts and issues for ourselves and our kids and families.
• 45:52
  Man, such a great point. The actual example they used for overcoming shame is the actual example the Bible uses to describe why we have this problem all the way back to the very first chapters of the Bible. And you see the exact same behavior being diagnosed, not as, oh, they're a good person inside. And that's, that's, you know, so that's how they overcome this.
• 46:14
  But it's a very complex problem. And they are ashamed. And they are hiding themselves with fig leaves. And God doesn't come down and say, well, you're basically good. And so let's just understand what happened. And then we'll kind of move on. It's like, no, you have committed a moral evil. And now there is a debt to be paid. Right.
• 46:31
  And there is something to be ashamed of. And I need to rescue you now. And I love you so much that I'm going to enact. This is, of course, you're describing Genesis 3. I'm going to enact Genesis 4 through the end of the Bible in order to rescue you. I love you that much. And so, yeah, they're getting right down to first principles right there in the Bible. They're articulating them the same way the Bible does. And then they are using...
• 46:58
  opposite theological convictions to make their points or to found the parenting of children. So again, it's so important, I think, that we kind of differentiate these things. That's super helpful. Krista, anything that this stirs up for you? Yeah, I think as parents, as mothers and fathers, we have a unique ability to
• 47:29
  feeling shame, repenting, correcting the behavior. I mean, we're really walking them through that cycle over and over as we train them. And there's one of my children who is so uncomfortable with shame. And he, you know, he's a sinner, right? And so he'll do something.
• 47:52
  He knows he shouldn't. You call him on it and he wants to dance off. Like, yep. And leave as soon as he possibly can. He's so uncomfortable with sitting in that moment and realizing the weight of what he has done that is wrong. But I think that's...
• 48:11
  also happening all over society, right? All of these really shameful things are occurring out loud, and you either have to celebrate them or feel them. And we're celebrating a lot of things that are really shameful these days. And so feeling the weight of...
• 48:31
  Sin allows us to acknowledge our need for the Savior to take that and to cover us with his blood. If we don't ever feel that, then why would we feel like we needed that? Why would we ever cling to that? Like what you hear? Be sure to leave a rating and review for this podcast wherever you use streaming.
• 48:58
  And it's just so terrible. I mean, we can see our children sin as soon as they throw their sippy cup the second time. Right. The second time. That is when it shows up. And that is early. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There is a bent in the human heart and it's constantly coming out. And at the very end, she describes the importance of separating behavior and identity.
• 49:22
  And so the question is, where do you get the identity that helps you overcome behavior? It's got to come from a place where you say, there's something deep inside of me that is really valuable and that is really good. And I agree again with her basic thesis. It's just, where does that goodness come from? Does it come from me? And this is such a fascinating way that the gospel describes this, which is Jesus switches places with us, right? His righteousness, his righteous record becomes my record so that when...
• 49:51
  When there is repentance and belief in the gospel, your child is filled with the righteousness of Christ. And so that you can call forth that identity. And that's why we were given the power of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit who is holy, perfect. So everything she's describing is a gift of salvation and is accurate. You do all these things you need to do. It's just...
• 50:12
  The theological grounding is so much the opposite. And we have to, instead of just asserting that children are good and then building everything on that very rickety foundation so that when your child does something truly bad, maybe doesn't make an excuse about their test, but spends the next six months just destroying the reputation of somebody that they don't like. I'm sure there's good explanations for that, right? But all the explanations in the world aren't going to overcome that.
• 50:40
  For somebody who's sensitive and honest with themselves, the fact that that came from inside of me and that was so mean and so bad. Like somebody tell me, where did that come from? Why did I do that? And how do I, how do I repay that debt that I've not, I've done probably done damage to hundreds of people now because of this one act. We all do these things. And the gospel is the only way I know to get to overcome any of the real struggles that we create for ourselves.
• 51:10
  Yeah, April, round us out. Yeah, I think that one of our biggest jobs as mothers and fathers is to discern the hearts of our children. And so when they start doing all the excusing, like, oh, the teacher this, oh, you know, my mom tells a story when one of us were little, one of us said that the devil made us do it.
• 51:32
  And so we can always find an excuse or a reason why it wasn't us. And so, yes, you could say the thing about we need to take responsibility for our actions. I believe that's very true. But also there's something else going on there. Is that pride? Is that, you know, the enemy is always trying to convince us and convince our kids of lies.
• 51:54
  And so we have to discern what is actually happening in their heart and help them learn how to discern the voice of God versus the voice of the enemy. So is God going to tell me that I'm a terrible, awful person and I should, you know, just slink into the corner and be quiet? Or could that possibly be the enemy speaking to me?
• 52:16
  So, like, when it comes to questions of identity and behaviors and these kinds of things, it's important to remember that we have an enemy who wants to destroy us. He's prowling around looking for opportunities. Yeah.
• 52:32
  But we have the power to overcome him through Jesus and gifts like discernment to know what's actually going on in our kids hearts. And it's our job to take the time and to pray about it, to watch them, to try to understand, to ask good questions, to bring it out so that they can get to the root of it themselves in their hearts and bring those things to light. Awesome.
• 52:58
  Well, thank you guys so much for doing this with me. I think what we just did and like diving into a secular like descriptions of parenting and then trying to just tease apart good tactics and bad theology is really just an important exercise.
• 53:14
  By the way, I don't expect a secular psychologist to have biblical theology. Like nothing we're saying here is saying that she should know the difference. Why should she? If she's not a Christian, I don't expect that, of course. But I think this is really confusing for Christians when they're consuming content like this. How do we do what you were just saying, April? How do we discern even to understand, like, wow, those tactics really work. They sound really good.
• 53:37
  But all of a sudden, you're building your entire life on a bad theology. So theology is really important, you guys. And so we want to be really clear about that and try to make these determinations. And just to understand that when you hear...
• 53:53
  assertions in secular theology or psychology, they have to come with theology. There are basic theological assumptions being made, and sometimes they're actually articulated. And she fortunately actually articulated her founding theological assumption in this video. I thought that was really interesting. It's something that kind of gave us a lot to kind of tease apart. So thank you guys so much for talking to me about this today. Thanks for having me. Thank you.
• 54:22
  Thank you for listening to the Family Teams podcast. If you're enjoying this content or have learned something new, please make sure to leave a rating and review and share with a friend. To stay up to date with our events, new content, and products, you can follow us on Facebook and Instagram at FamilyTeams.