Latest / Radically Genuine / Is Schizophrenia Demonic Possession? | Jerry Marzinsky

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Is Schizophrenia Demonic Possession? | Jerry Marzinsky · Radically Genuine

• 00:00:07:12 - 00:00:32:05 Speaker 1 The voices want to talk to you. Those were the words a psychiatric patient reportedly spoke when he walked into office at an Arizona prison. Not. I want to talk with you. The voices do. And when Gerry asked what they wanted, the answer came back. You have no right to interfere with our way of life. Think about that for a minute. 00:00:32:07 - 00:01:00:06 Speaker 1 What if some of the voices heard by people diagnosed with schizophrenia aren't simply symptoms of a psychiatric disorder? What if there's something else going on? Something spiritual. An entity attachment. What earlier civilizations might have called demonic possession. We live in a culture where even entertaining that possibility can get you labeled before you even finish the sentence. Over the last century, we've increasingly separated medicine from the spiritual dimension of human experience. 00:01:00:08 - 00:01:26:22 Speaker 1 The brain becomes the explanation for the mind, and the soul is pushed out of the conversation entirely, and psychiatry followed. Chemical imbalances, genetic predispositions. Disordered brain circuitry. And yet, for all of our scientific advances, there is still no single blood test, brain scan, or genetic marker that can diagnose schizophrenia. We have theories, correlations, and an expanding understanding of the brain. 00:01:27:00 - 00:01:55:13 Speaker 1 But there are still profound questions about what consciousness is and the origins of human suffering, and these remain unanswered. Meanwhile, there's a question that Jerry Mars spent decades asking what are the voices actually saying? And when he began listening, he says he discovered something extraordinary. Patients separated by thousands of miles with no connection to one another were describing strikingly similar experiences. 00:01:55:15 - 00:02:18:17 Speaker 1 Over time, he became convinced that he was not dealing with meaningless hallucinations. Jerry spent 35 years working on the front lines of mental health, beginning at Central State Hospital in Georgia, one of the largest psychiatric institutions in the country at the time. He later worked in the psychology department of Arizona's prison system and evaluated patients in psychiatric crisis in Tucson emergency rooms. 00:02:18:19 - 00:02:47:23 Speaker 1 He's the coauthor of An Amazing Journey into the Psychotic Mind Breaking the Spell of the Ivory Tower. His work goes beyond schizophrenia to the nature of consciousness, the boundaries of the human mind, the possibility of spiritual influence, and ultimately, our capacity to reclaim authority over our own inner experience. After decades of listening to people that most of society has dismissed, he arrived at a conclusion that challenges almost everything that he'd ever been taught. 00:02:48:01 - 00:03:12:12 Speaker 1 You don't have to agree with the conclusions. Jerry came to recognize that the questions he's asking deserve examination, because if even part of what he's describing is true, the implications for how we understand mental illness and perhaps the human mind itself, are staggering. Recently, Roger and I had a fascinating conversation with Jerry. We want to share it with you today, along with our own reflections. 00:03:12:14 - 00:04:02:19 Speaker 2 Welcome to Radically Genuine. Today's conversation is taboo in my field, my professional circles, even mentioning what we're about to discuss today could have implications of career suicide. And I remembered a story. An instance in my professional life where I was giving a talk and a woman asked me the question about my thoughts on severe mental illness like schizophrenia, psychotic symptoms, and she asked a legitimate question if it was possible that those individuals were dealing with some form of energetic or demonic possession. 00:04:02:21 - 00:04:49:06 Speaker 2 Now, we've all been on the city streets. We've seen homeless people who appear to be having a direct conversation with somebody else or something else that's outside of them. And I reflected on my reaction to the woman asking me that question. And it was fear, because it's something I certainly have considered and certainly have thought about. But we become conditioned to actually talk about the spiritual in any way within these academic materialist circles reflects some form of ignorance, lack of scientific credibility. 00:04:49:08 - 00:05:31:11 Speaker 2 At worst, you know, you're even invalidating and dismissing a serious condition. And of course, as I reflect on our outcomes in helping somebody who has schizophrenia or severe illness, I see what any other serious clinician would. When you examine this literature, you see somebody getting more and more sick. They're provided drugs that are so debilitating that they have to fake that they're taking it, or lie about taking it, or just absolutely refuse those who do. 00:05:31:12 - 00:06:12:09 Speaker 2 Their quality of life deteriorates. Many people gain a lot of weight because it induces, metabolic syndrome. They are seen almost like a sedated, drooling version of their previous self. And so to have this conversation today, it requires a couple of things. First, a level of respect and compassion for the complexity of those conditions. I don't think, Tracy, we're asking anybody today to on face value, just accept what we reflect on and what we discuss. 00:06:12:11 - 00:06:24:16 Speaker 2 But in my opinion, these are the conversations that we must have. Why do you think this subject is so taboo? 00:06:24:18 - 00:06:49:03 Speaker 1 Well, if a significant portion of what we class as mental illness is demonic possession, if you even entertain that possibility, the entire materialist paradigm is out the window on the spot. And it's a field built on materialism. And therefore this is one of the most challenging and destabilizing questions for the whole field. 00:06:49:05 - 00:07:25:15 Speaker 2 We were out in Texas. I was filming a segment on Del Big Trees show, The High Wire, and we did a show afterwards, and that is titled Off the Record. And we got into this interesting discussion about the spiritual dimensions of this earth and subjects that really are off the record. Right? Like subjects that most serious people have almost privately, but not on a public forum. 00:07:25:17 - 00:07:37:07 Speaker 2 And we ended up running into a gentleman there, one of the crew, I think he was a camera operator, and he brought our attention to Jerry Mars. 00:07:37:09 - 00:08:05:17 Speaker 1 Yeah he did. And I remember him saying, look, the two of you just need to go look into Jerry. He's done work on whether schizophrenia is just a brain disorder or whether there is a potential entities involved. And I was instantly interested, instantly fascinated, because I think anyone who has known someone close to them that has had this diagnosis is left with questions that aren't easily answered. 00:08:05:19 - 00:08:30:14 Speaker 1 And the amount of havoc that it wreaks in the lives of those who have it is incredibly painful and heartbreaking to watch. You can see someone with the sweetest personality and the best heart simply disappear in front of you and become someone different, and there's nothing about that that is easily explained. No matter how hard the field tries. 00:08:30:16 - 00:08:34:20 Speaker 2 Now, some things worth mentioning. 00:08:34:22 - 00:09:33:07 Speaker 2 This is really a conversation for Western societies, because it is Western societies that have medicalized this. Many people might not be aware. But across cultures, the digital cultures. The Far East, they don't all look at these conditions in through the medical eyes that we do in the West. And hearing voices outside of your own mind have throughout history been seen as somebody who is sensitive or talented or has a special gift to connect with the energies outside the physical, and have often been then placed under the guidance of an elder or a shamanic leader in their tribe. 00:09:33:09 - 00:10:08:09 Speaker 2 Of course, as we become more materialist and separate in the West, it is important to recognize that even Western societies or some of the origins of Western culture. Europe, Rome. There was a deep connection to nature, to spiritual aspects of reality, the spiritual dimensions. And I saw a recent poll where 85, I think it was a Gallup poll. 00:10:08:11 - 00:11:04:03 Speaker 2 85% of Americans believed in the spiritual aspects of this reality. And there was something a greater force beyond us that was a creator of reality. So we are speaking here today to 85% of you, at least potentially more, who have at least have these thoughts. There's an intuitive sense about this, where you're questioning our understanding of reality and some of the diseases that we are so quick to diagnose and label and just allow those people to be managed with very dangerous drugs and almost to be outside of our, you know, our lens, our attention to any form of innovation. 00:11:04:03 - 00:11:30:23 Speaker 2 It's like you're mentally ill. We don't talk about it. So with an increase in homelessness and a lot of the destruction of American cities, it's a lot more in the consciousness of the American public to observe what it looks like when someone is responding to stimuli that is outside themselves. 00:11:31:01 - 00:12:08:14 Speaker 1 Yeah. I think the fact that 85% of Americans would believe there is some form of higher power is worth taking in here, because when you look at the beliefs within the fields of psychiatry and psychology, they do not match that 85% at all. In fact, I'm trying to remember where this this panel was. Or whether it was a survey you may remember, but it was basically that the question was asked of high ranking, you know, leaders in, in this psychiatry field, what would you do with a person who believes these things? 00:12:08:15 - 00:12:29:15 Speaker 1 And the answer was we would diagnose them as having religious delusions. So the fact that we have a field that is responsible for mental health, that would diagnose 85% of the country as suffering from a form of delusion because of what they know in their heart, is something that we do need to think about when we have this discussion. 00:12:29:17 - 00:13:00:11 Speaker 1 Because I think that for those who are laypeople, this is actually a much easier and often visible on the surface potential truth than it is for people who have been through an education that is designed as much as anything else to remove this possibility from their minds. The possibility that we are more than our minds, we're more than brains, and that we can be influenced by entities, forces, or spiritual consciousness, light or dark that comes from outside us. 00:13:00:14 - 00:13:44:08 Speaker 2 And before we bring Jerry into the conversation. You and I have both met mental health professionals, whether that be physicians or therapist, who certainly have experienced people that are provided this label of schizophrenia, who we think that there is some spiritual entity, some nonphysical entity that is attached to them. The reason that that is believed to be so is because people who have a religious or spiritual foundation will often turn to prayer in situations like that very private right within the person where the person sitting across from them would not know. 00:13:44:12 - 00:13:51:03 Speaker 2 And that could be calling in Jesus or or saying a specific prayer and have observed a reaction from a patient. 00:13:51:05 - 00:14:16:02 Speaker 1 Yeah, this is true. I you know, I may have told the story before, but, a friend of mine who's a very highly respected psychiatrist has told me of having multiple experiences of patients coming in who were simply not responding to treatment, where he would end up concluding there was a potential, that there was some form of demonic attachment, some kind of possession here. 00:14:16:04 - 00:14:54:17 Speaker 1 And in those situations, what he would do would be to simply become quiet inside, pray, and then order the demon to leave. And he would not say anything out loud. The patient themself would not know this was occurring. All they would think was that he was being quiet, maybe taking notes or something else disengaged for a moment. And in these scenarios, the ones where he would conclude there was some form of possession, the patient would become extremely agitated and often speak with an unrecognizable voice, demanding that he cease praying. 00:14:54:19 - 00:14:57:12 Speaker 1 And. 00:14:57:14 - 00:15:21:14 Speaker 1 I have a difficulty finding a materialist explanation for that. In these scenarios, he would end up turning to, people who were religious authorities, who had expertise in this to try to help the patient. And these are stories that were shared with me privately, and you can understand why they were shared with me privately, which is why I'll never identify who this person is. 00:15:21:16 - 00:15:27:18 Speaker 1 They were doing the best they could to help their patient, but that required stepping outside the bounds of their field. 00:15:27:20 - 00:15:57:17 Speaker 2 Now, this was a prerecorded interview. We had a long conversation with him, and in order for this to be coherent and organized, we're going to shift to Jerry in that interview at various times. Stop and bring it back to our thoughts on this. And the reason we think that's important is because you and I have had some mystical, spiritual experiences, not only over the course of the last few years, but it has intensified over the past 12 months. 00:15:57:19 - 00:16:20:18 Speaker 2 And we've learned a lot, and we've met a lot of people who have experience in this realm, and we feel like it's important to share our experiences. But for Jerry, he was the one who was asking the questions most were refusing to ask. And he has decades working with this population. It's a fascinating interview. Let's introduce Jerry. 00:16:20:20 - 00:16:35:06 Speaker 3 Well, so why don't you start with your career at Central State Hospital? What was that job there day to day kind of who was the patient population and when did you really start questioning what you were taught about. 00:16:35:06 - 00:16:36:13 Speaker 2 Mental illness? 00:16:36:15 - 00:16:48:14 Speaker 4 Well, that was even before I got there. One thing I realized, and this was even when I was at Temple University. 00:16:48:16 - 00:17:15:03 Speaker 4 You couldn't get access to a clinical population. So you're sitting there reading about all these mental illnesses, and they have normal psychology. I mean, when I hit abnormal psychology, I just lit up. It was like, what's going on with these people? And that all abnormal did was gave detailed descriptions of their behavior. There wasn't anything in there about how to cure these people, you know. 00:17:15:05 - 00:17:17:16 Speaker 4 00:17:17:18 - 00:17:49:20 Speaker 4 And all there was was, you know, when they when they talked about the voices, they said, oh, these are, auditory hallucinations. So when I saw the word hallucinations, I'm thinking, like, word salad. You know, these people are just scrambled, and and they they're incoherent, and you can't make any sense out of anything. They they say, but when I got out of graduate school and took a job at Central State, that's not what I saw. 00:17:49:22 - 00:18:18:23 Speaker 4 These schizophrenics were carrying on long, coherent conversations with something or somebody that I couldn't see. And it was a it was similar to listening to somebody talk over a telephone. And you can hear what they're saying, but you couldn't hear what was coming in over the phone. That took probably 1 to 2 years before I knew how to talk to them. 00:18:18:23 - 00:18:44:22 Speaker 4 And the other barrier I faced was that one of my jobs was that if if any of them started getting out of line or started becoming psychotic again, it was my job to turn them into psychiatry. Who would take them and drug them more? I didn't want to believe in demons or negative spirits or anything like that. I was thinking some part of their subconscious mind is broken or something. 00:18:44:23 - 00:19:06:11 Speaker 4 I'm. I didn't know what it was, and a lot of the times the patients were just as curious about what the voices were as I was, and it was like the ones who were listening to the voices would screw up the most. So there was like a 1 to 1 correlation between the ones who were carrying out conversations with their voices or listening to their voices and them getting into trouble. 00:19:06:12 - 00:19:27:03 Speaker 4 Okay. So I was like wondering, well, what are these voices telling them? You know, what are these things? And I started asking, you know, psych nurses and, counselors and and psychiatrists and psychologists, what are the voices of. 00:19:27:05 - 00:19:49:10 Speaker 2 So what's fascinating, what Jerry chose to do, which was taboo in the field at the time, psychiatrists were recommending that you don't engage somebody with the hallucinations. Jerry became very curious. What are those voices saying to them? 00:19:49:12 - 00:20:00:02 Speaker 2 And where might they be coming from? Because he spoke about it like he's witnessing somebody on a telephone, but he can't hear the other end. 00:20:00:04 - 00:20:56:05 Speaker 2 So what's fascinating about this is it mirrors a lot of other questions that we have asked about the nature of consciousness and where post material science is going, that the brain is not what is generating thoughts, but rather it acts like a receiver that tunes in almost like a radio dial into other forms of consciousness. And it might be the the precursor for understanding what telepathy is, and it might be the precursor for us understanding to connect to a universal field or universal universal consciousness where like knowledge is received and the brain is the part of the physical that does tune in to that frequency. 00:20:56:07 - 00:21:13:06 Speaker 1 Yeah, it's I mean, I think this might sound like a new concept of people, but think how often you've been, with your partner in a car, you know, or actually, our producer was telling us this story the other day about being in the car, having a thought in his head that he has not expressed at all to his wife. 00:21:13:08 - 00:21:40:06 Speaker 1 And then she turns to him and asks him the question that he's just been thinking about. That feeling you have when you're thinking of someone and they call you right then? We've all had these experiences and we've many of us would, you know, if we think about it, we've had these experiences a lot. And if our brains are just mechanical devices that are generating thought, these things are odd and don't really make sense. 00:21:40:08 - 00:22:01:07 Speaker 1 If we understand there to be an energetic field through which thoughts flow and then our brain tunes to, they make complete sense. And the way I think of it is that it's like I'm standing in a in a stream, kind of like up to my eyeballs in water, and thoughts are flowing down that stream and they flow around in my head, they touch me. 00:22:01:09 - 00:22:19:02 Speaker 1 And if I identified every single one of those things as coming from inside me, my life is a little more confusing than it is when I consider the fact that things are flowing past me in this stream, and it's my choice whether or not I grab onto them. 00:22:19:04 - 00:22:51:19 Speaker 2 Meditation is a practice. Centuries and centuries old is about cultivating that ability to be pure awareness, pure consciousness. And what happens when you go into a meditative state? You are observing what enters into your consciousness. So then who is that? That is doing the observing? And then what is that that enters into the into your consciousness? 00:22:51:21 - 00:23:15:09 Speaker 1 One of my favorite books on this is The Untethered Soul Michael P singer, where he starts the book with exactly this. You know this above all, to thine own self be true. But and it shall follow as the night, the day that cannot be false to any man. Beautiful quote from Shakespeare. But then he dives right into what is it to be true to yourself if you don't know who yourself is? 00:23:15:11 - 00:23:35:03 Speaker 1 Are you true to every thought that you have? And then he tells you to stop, start and start listening to your thoughts. Just take your take your mind, that chattering little monkey that lives in your head and put it next to you like it's a roommate who's going to live with you for a few days and start listening as if it's coming from outside of you. 00:23:35:03 - 00:23:57:03 Speaker 1 And it's, you know, it's well written and it's humorous, but he makes the compelling point that by the third or fourth day of doing this conscientiously, you're going to want your roommate to move out, because you're going to start to notice that the opinions you're getting presented to you are a little deranged. They change constantly. They're not helpful, rational. 00:23:57:09 - 00:24:22:01 Speaker 1 They're often sabotaging you. And yet, this is what we most of us live with every day and believe is ourselves. And so there's great wisdom to considering the possibility that our thoughts are not our own. I'll never forget reading that book because of the impact that it had on me. 00:24:22:03 - 00:24:54:16 Speaker 2 I think you and I both have a very similar understanding about the nature of the human experience, and we discuss it in terms of a spiritual journey that our souls incarnate for. And so another way in Jerry also had a similar viewpoint, was that this body and this personality, this a going structure, is just the temporary costume for the human experience. 00:24:54:18 - 00:25:01:08 Speaker 2 And that the soul, the energy of pure consciousness, is the driver. 00:25:01:10 - 00:25:02:11 Speaker 1 Yeah. 00:25:02:12 - 00:25:53:02 Speaker 2 And we enter into this three and fourth dimensional, dense physical realm and create this personality structure in this ego that is meant for survival. And from a more mystical perspective, it becomes the challenging opponent in being able to attain communion with God. And so when we when we look at thoughts as part of that energetic realm that we're in and that in this three dimensional world, there are unseen spiritual forces, both dark and of light, and that the darkness in the spiritual realm, these entities that we will get into have a role in this spiritual game that we are in. 00:25:53:04 - 00:26:25:11 Speaker 2 And so just the simple fact of being able to be an observer of this is extremely, extremely meaningful. And as we bring Jerry back into this conversation, I want everybody to stop and consider how your life may be different. If you are able to separate yourself from the content, the thoughts, that energy that enters into your field of consciousness. 00:26:25:12 - 00:26:46:21 Speaker 4 You know what? That's a that's that's one of the things that they have to do in order to recover. They have to realize that those voices are not them. That's one thing psychiatry and psychology don't even look at where the thoughts come from. They don't even look at it. You know, nobody's ever found a thought in the brain. 00:26:46:23 - 00:27:07:10 Speaker 4 No. No autopsies ever found the thought in the brain. You know, the brain is like a radio receiver that picks up on different consciousness. It picks up on your consciousness, and it picks up on the consciousness of these entities. And it's it's like it's got a radio dial, you know, just like the stations you tune from one station to the other. 00:27:07:12 - 00:27:09:12 Speaker 3 Well, who are the entities? Can you describe them. 00:27:09:12 - 00:27:36:23 Speaker 4 For us? The entities are, negative, energetic beings that are also parasites. You know, we believe that every thought that you have that comes into your head belongs to you. You know, Manuel Swedenborg, Christian mystic of through 300 years ago. He brought it out clearly. You know, he he said that none of your thoughts are your own. They either come from heaven, hell, or somewhere in between, you know. 00:27:37:01 - 00:27:52:11 Speaker 1 So you were talking about tuning the dial. Did you? What is your experience with that? With the patients you treated? What is your experience with them? Tuning the dial to different stations and experiencing different things? 00:27:52:12 - 00:28:27:09 Speaker 4 Well, the the these entities don't want the dial turned. The one thing I saw at the state hospital was that these these patients that were talking to me, I would I noticed that after the voices hit them, that their energy levels were down in the dumps. Okay. So I went, that's odd. So I did a little experiment, like, you know, what's going on here? 00:28:27:11 - 00:28:49:09 Speaker 4 And I would ask them, how much energy do you have before the voices come and how much energy do you have? Afterward? Okay. And it was on a 1 to 10 scale. So this simple experiment, 1 to 10 and I, II scores of them, you know, and consistently after the voices hit them, their energy level was measurably down. 00:28:49:11 - 00:29:01:09 Speaker 4 So I did a a simple t test, and it was statistically significant that something that that that energy level drop was not due to chance. 00:29:01:11 - 00:29:07:23 Speaker 3 The parasitic aspect of these entities. We've followed Bob Monroe's work from. 00:29:07:23 - 00:29:08:12 Speaker 2 The Monroe. 00:29:08:13 - 00:29:09:04 Speaker 3 Institute. 00:29:09:05 - 00:29:09:09 Speaker 2 And. 00:29:09:09 - 00:29:24:07 Speaker 3 We've heard a lot about louche, the generation of loose energy, and that they feed off of those lower density emotions like fear did. Did you see that they would attempt to try to create fear? 00:29:24:09 - 00:29:52:03 Speaker 4 Oh yeah, that's what they do. They they try to create every feeling they can paranoia, anxiety of fear, any, any negative emotional they can because they can't. They can't generate those that energy themselves. The emotions are energy. It's emotion is energy in motion okay. So they feed off of that. Remember the test I told you I we did with the 1 to 10 thing. 00:29:52:08 - 00:30:01:06 Speaker 4 How much energy do you have before the voices attack? How much do you have afterward. You know they they feed on that. 00:30:01:08 - 00:30:29:04 Speaker 2 Proud to announce that my book is now available. The awakening. They cannot medicate. It's an exposing the anti-human agenda behind the mental health industry and more importantly, reclaiming our own abilities to transform and heal. It's full of stories of my awakening, and the goal is for a paradigm shift, a paradigm shift to alter the way that we understand the human experience, that we can heal and help each other. 00:30:29:10 - 00:30:37:08 Speaker 2 Go to doctor McMillan. Com or Radically genuine.com. It's also available on Amazon or wherever you buy your books. 00:30:37:10 - 00:31:31:22 Speaker 1 The parasitic nature of these entities is, to me the most important piece of this, because it would answer the question of why? Why would these people be tormented? Why would an entity want to do that? And if the answer is that they are harvesting energy from that person, we now have a reason. And we've heard this now from many different people in different walks of life, not just from Jerry, that there are entities who cannot create human beings, are creator beings made in the image of God, and that these entities can, you know, depend on humans for the energy that they live on and that because they are negative beings polarized to the dark, they 00:31:31:22 - 00:32:09:08 Speaker 1 want to harvest negative frequencies from humans. I mean, this is that the monsters, Inc. movie, right? Anyone with a kid who's been into that movie, go watch it with them. That is what this is. And so in that sense, schizophrenia may simply be a case of constant harassment from, entities that have found an easy target, who believes that they are the one with the voices and people who do not realize that it's coming from outside of them and do not have the tools to free themselves from the entities in question. 00:32:09:12 - 00:32:34:04 Speaker 1 But I would actually argue that this isn't just a schizophrenia issue, that the, the harvesting of negative energy is. It's probably something that happens to all of us, you know, parasite infections that we think of worms or anything like this, like you can have a tiny infection or you can have a really life threatening one. And I suspect this is kind of along those lines. 00:32:34:06 - 00:32:36:18 Speaker 2 Like there's a continuum here. 00:32:36:20 - 00:33:01:05 Speaker 1 I doubt there's there's a really black and white schizophrenia versus not schizophrenia. I think there are people who have fully learned to not be their mind and will notice the energies coming through them immediately and immediately notice, that's something from outside me on up to the person who is completely overtaken and doesn't have any handle on what is happening to them. 00:33:01:07 - 00:33:41:14 Speaker 2 Well, I think there's some complexity to it, and I and I acknowledge that as we move into this interview and we bring Jerry back, it gives us some greater opportunity than to, I think, follow up on some of these very important questions that you ask. And so I think where we're at now with this and what Jerry is speaking about is that these entities that that attach or target human beings, their main objective is to create fear, paranoia, judgment, something that lowers your energy field. 00:33:41:16 - 00:34:18:02 Speaker 2 And in lowering your energy field, you're exposed to the emotions of shame, of fear, of disgust. And they can do this by attacking the mind. And then what you do with those thoughts from there can further create more damage in your life that acts as energy. Now, I understand the skepticism of having this type of conversation, but the work of Bob Monroe is very fascinating from a scientific perspective. 00:34:18:04 - 00:34:53:15 Speaker 2 The Monroe Institute has been funded and utilized by the U.S. government, Army Intelligence Services, CIA. It is the origin of research into remote viewing. There's no doubt from a scientific perspective, the quantum nature of all reality is that energy is is the ground force of all matter. So although the physical nature in which we are able to observe is vibrating on a certain frequency, that's still energy. 00:34:53:17 - 00:35:44:11 Speaker 2 And as the energy shifts in its vibration, it may be out of the sight of where we are in this three and fourth dimensional world. So we don't see them. But it would also help you better understand the power structures of this Earth. If this theory is true, then you would see energetic demonic forces attaching to people who may crave power, influence, and it might be the source of many systems that have been created on this world that push division, war, separation, and a lot of the problems that we as humanity have not been able to solve. 00:35:44:15 - 00:36:31:00 Speaker 2 If we begin to think about things more spiritually, and we have the willingness to reflect back on spiritual teachings, not just in our separate religion that we were taught, but from maybe universal principles cross-culturally. Whether it's the teachings of Jesus, Krishna, Buddha, and not see fellow human beings in terms of someone who is dangerous and separate from us because they grew up in a different culture, they have a different skin color, but rather to try to understand universal laws that most religions are going to support in terms of love, compassion and service. 00:36:31:06 - 00:37:10:01 Speaker 2 And why is that important? Well, as we're going to get into with Jerry, I think as far as raising the energetic field of this planet to protect yourself from such entities, to not be susceptible to having these entities harvest your energy. Where we create a better Earth, we have to understand this, and we have to understand it in a respectable way, where you can communicate it to a complete materialist who rejects all religion but incorporate some degree of both philosophy and science into the conversation. 00:37:10:03 - 00:37:24:00 Speaker 2 So we did. We asked Jerry to really speak more about his understanding of these voices are, and how he began to intervene with them. 00:37:24:02 - 00:38:03:13 Speaker 4 So in the prison, what I had was a group of schizophrenics that I made a deal with. Like you tell me what these voices are telling you in real time while we're in session, and I'll do everything I can for you, and we'll see if we can't figure out what these things are and how they work. Okay. And they agreed, you know, and so what I found that they were running patterns, you know, the first pattern where they were consistently negative and they were derogatory, insulting, abusive, destructive. 00:38:03:15 - 00:38:27:05 Speaker 4 They would they would tell. They would tell the patient, you're no good. You're rotten, you're stupid, you're ugly. Nobody loves you. And your your parents are faking like every rotten thing that you could imagine. These voices would tell these these clients, these patients, you know, and if they said anything positive, it was only so they could come back around and stab them in the back later. 00:38:27:09 - 00:38:51:05 Speaker 4 And in other cases, they would appear to be friendly spirits, you know, they would like, oh, we we can help you out. We, we know stuff that you don't know. And in fact, they did, you know, there were, meth addicts would tell me and more than once that when they ran out of meth, the voices would tell them where to be and when to be there, and somebody would just show up with more meth, you know. 00:38:51:07 - 00:38:56:12 Speaker 1 Do you think the meth was part of what was opening the door? Yes. To be to be attacked. 00:38:56:12 - 00:38:58:07 Speaker 4 I don't I don't think I know it. 00:38:58:12 - 00:39:09:11 Speaker 1 Okay. And so that basically the, the parasitic entities were enabling their own continued attachment by convincing the people to go and get more methamphetamines. 00:39:09:12 - 00:39:36:06 Speaker 4 Yes, that's mean for some reason, just opens up whatever spiritual protection they have, you know, and it's a very dangerous drug because it makes them feel like they're Superman. Apparently they they feel like they just great. They love it. And then what happens is at some point they start hearing these negative voices and they just go, oh, well, that's just a hallucination. 00:39:36:06 - 00:40:02:07 Speaker 4 When I come down, they'll go away. And in fact, that happens, you know, and then they do it again and it happens again. And they go, oh yeah, well, they went away last time. They're just hallucinations. So, you know, that may happen, you know, ten, 15, 25, 50 times. And then one day they don't go away and they are just as psychotic as any of the other psychotic patients on the psych ward. 00:40:02:09 - 00:40:31:12 Speaker 1 This reminds me of our conversation with Justin Garson, because he told us the same thing he was talking about in San Francisco during the 1960s, how LSD had swept through, and it was having an impact, but it was a mostly positive or neutral impact. And then it was followed by the methamphetamines coming through and how it destroyed the hippie culture and how people would turn violent. 00:40:31:14 - 00:40:51:01 Speaker 1 They would become psychotic, but very much that it seemed to open people up to a different spirit. And already in our conversation with Justin, I remember thinking, wow, this is a recurring theme, because of course we heard that from del bigotry to. 00:40:51:03 - 00:41:45:06 Speaker 2 You know, it's fascinating, this journey we're on and where this podcast is taking us because reoccurring themes have been, you know, consistent in our journey here. It tends to open doors to the next examination of a particular subject. When I was on Del Big Trees show, and we had that private discussion as part of their Off the record, del told a story where he met a gentleman who was a I think it was of the Lakota tribe, and describing some of the energetic, spiritual work that has been done within that tribe, especially in working with people who have addictions, and the gentleman who has had incredible success with being able to remove the entities through 00:41:45:06 - 00:42:34:23 Speaker 2 ceremony, mentioned that specific drugs act as portals for these energetic attachments, with methamphetamines being the primary. Now, what I thought about immediately was the mass drugging of our children, in particular boys with a stimulant drug where it's derivative, it's foundational compound is methamphetamine, Adderall being the most prominent. And in our work, and the Justin Garson episode and other episodes that either have been aired or will be aired for us as we examine MKUltra. 00:42:35:01 - 00:43:37:02 Speaker 2 It's declassified. These are facts that intelligence forces clearly wanted to identify brainwashing techniques, along with specific pharmaceutical compounds that can shift the mood, thoughts and actions of large groups of people, potentially make them susceptible to coercion, control and influence. And if it is true that we are in an energetic realm with dark entities, then it definitely would make sense that they would be part of a mass conspiracy, intentional desire to influence human consciousness in order for those attachments to become easier and to influence the population. 00:43:37:04 - 00:44:10:08 Speaker 2 Which of course brings me immediately to the case and the most horrific case of our time, Lindsay Clancy, the murdering of three children after inducing 17 various forms of psychiatric drugs that are again targeting specific brain chemicals. So if we think about the brain as the receiver, what would happen then if you interfere with that natural process? We know the physical effects of these drugs. 00:44:10:10 - 00:44:52:15 Speaker 2 They vary, they range. But there are horrific atrocities that associated with these drugs, including suicide and homicide and of course, hallucinations or what we had to be hallucinations. So I think it is reasonable and ethical to consider that the drugs that are being used to alter human behavior could be part of a diabolical plan of dark entities to open up the portal that can allow these attachments to have more influence. 00:44:52:17 - 00:45:11:14 Speaker 2 Now, I don't say that without considering the consequences of a clinical psychologist even mentioning it, but I honestly believe that we have a responsibility to understand what could be happening. 00:45:11:16 - 00:45:31:05 Speaker 1 And I realize as I'm listening to this, you know, I'm imagining as I'm sitting here listening to you, that if this was my first time hearing that, it could be very disturbing. It could make me afraid. It could make me really wish I'd never heard it. 00:45:31:07 - 00:46:03:18 Speaker 1 But here's the truth. Whether you know something or not doesn't change whether it's true. And if you know you can do something about it. And you know we will get into that later in this conversation. But I just want to mention that for people who are listening, that while these things can be disturbing, and they were to me the first time I heard it, the beauty of it is that knowing that these things are possible is the key to being free of them, free of the possibility of the influence. 00:46:03:18 - 00:46:09:03 Speaker 1 Because it's much easier to be influenced when you think nothing's influencing you. 00:46:09:05 - 00:46:12:16 Speaker 2 Yeah. 00:46:12:18 - 00:46:49:22 Speaker 2 What makes somebody more susceptible to this is of great interest to me, because those are those are the people that we have to intervene with, protect and assist. And it tends to be the group of people that I focused much of my career on. And we inquired with Jerry about what would happen or what could happen to somebody that would lead them vulnerable to such attacks. 00:46:50:00 - 00:46:55:14 Speaker 1 Now, you said that trauma patients are often the first targets. Why is that? 00:46:55:16 - 00:47:27:01 Speaker 4 Well, the, you know, trauma and depression and low energy states are there. They're low energy. They're low vibration okay. So these entities, they're like sharks in the ocean. They're attracted to that negative vibration. They're attracted to, like sharks attacking weak or bleeding prey in the ocean. They smell the blood just like these things. They're around all the time, you know. 00:47:27:03 - 00:47:53:20 Speaker 4 And they hit all of us. They don't just hit schizophrenics. I mean, if you think back, there's, you know, there's times where you're just minding your own business, walking down the street, street, and all of a sudden you get this, what do you call it? A negative, intrusive thought, you know, telling you to knock the the Dickens out of somebody who just walked in front of you and cut you off or something, or, or some other car driver that cuts you off. 00:47:53:22 - 00:48:00:15 Speaker 4 It's just a negative, intrusive thought that you would never act on. But it got you upset. Okay. 00:48:00:17 - 00:48:28:19 Speaker 1 It was very interesting to me when I had read him talking about trauma, making someone vulnerable because the psychiatrist that I had spoken to who had experienced, patients with demonic attachments, had told me the same thing because I'd asked him, what are the commonalities between the people you've experienced in your office who have had attachments? And he said people who were sexually abused as children seem to be the ones who were at the highest risk. 00:48:28:19 - 00:48:53:08 Speaker 1 And that really, really bothered me. It made me sick to my stomach because these are already the people who have suffered so much. They've suffered terribly and they're innocent children. Why should they be the most at risk? And this finally answered that question for me, which is that it's a consequence of the vibration, the frequency that these people are living at because of an unresolved trauma in their lives. 00:48:53:10 - 00:49:23:21 Speaker 1 But as Jerry was talking about this, something that just kept coming into my mind is that verse from Matthew that you know, anyone who would cause one of my little ones to stumble and be better for him to have a millstone hung around his neck and be thrown at the depths of the sea. And this feels like one of the reasons a verse like that would exist, because Jesus would have known that doing something like that to a child would have this type of consequence, potentially in the person's life. 00:49:23:23 - 00:49:46:09 Speaker 1 And I think about the work that you've done working, you know, across your career with people in trauma. And I'm curious, like, what what would you say would be the most effective thing for helping someone who has been through absolutely horrific things as a child, as a young adult, anywhere in their lifespan, to keep them from being vulnerable to an attack like this. 00:49:46:11 - 00:50:15:23 Speaker 2 Well, I think the first thing to remember and I want to extend beyond childhood sexual abuse. There's all types of traumas that can be extremely disruptive to the development of a child leading into adolescence and adulthood. So that could be violence. You know, you're threatening the safety and security. So there's a you're engaging the survival ego. You don't really have the capacity to develop normally because you're in a survival mode. 00:50:16:01 - 00:50:45:05 Speaker 2 But forms of physical violence, sexual violence, poverty, all of these things lead a young child to develop in an energy of fear. And because of all these horrible things that are occurring in their life, there's an absence of love. And so they're developing a belief system about who they are in the world in which they live in. And obviously the world is very dangerous. 00:50:45:07 - 00:50:57:02 Speaker 2 So it would make sense that they approach others in terms of a defensiveness or even a aggressiveness to be able to be on the attack before you're attacked. 00:50:57:04 - 00:51:02:12 Speaker 1 And you're saying, like, obviously the world is very dangerous, that that's the perspective that a child in this scenario would have. 00:51:02:13 - 00:51:23:20 Speaker 2 It would be their worldview, that would be their core beliefs. We are certainly, creating our own understanding of what this world is through our experiences. And then those are becoming internalized. So if you're asking me, how do people. 00:51:23:22 - 00:51:54:13 Speaker 2 Overcome something so horrific and protect themselves against these attacks? The first thing I want to recognize is the field has not examined it from this perspective, but I can speak to it in the manner in which someone like myself would have been trained. First and foremost. If that person is not in a safe environment, there's no way to necessarily help them other than to get them in a safe environment. 00:51:54:15 - 00:52:23:21 Speaker 2 After that, it's really key relationships that love that person and help shift that perspective. From a psychotherapy perspective, there is all different types of interventions that get you to be able to one process what happened to you, because those are energies that have to be able to move, they have to be felt and experienced. And when you're in the trauma itself, you're dangerous, then that's not the time to process. 00:52:23:21 - 00:52:57:16 Speaker 2 It's the time to survive. And then if you're out of that dangerous situation, the psychological mechanisms here are are avoidance generally. But without getting into every detail of trauma therapy, we know that someone has to be in a safe environment. They have to be loved. And but if we think about what they're attacked, what they're vulnerable to, attacks from outside entities, if they're able to diffuse from that and they're able to see that those thoughts are not their own and they're under attack because they've been brought into this low density emotional state. 00:52:57:18 - 00:53:27:01 Speaker 2 Well, we can then broaden the conversation on what they can do to protect themselves from such attacks, which could give them a sense of agency. And from listening to Jerry, that's exactly what he decided to do. But the other thing that Jerry said, that's really important, I think it's important for our discussion, is to not always view it in terms of just schizophrenia or these severe attacks that lead to the worst of your illness. 00:53:27:03 - 00:53:53:07 Speaker 2 Let's look at this as a hierarchy. And this is exactly the conversation we did get into with him was is there a hierarchy involved here? And what I mean by hierarchy, like these entities, the demonic entities, are there ones that are larger like generals and leaders, and they're just foot soldiers. And all of us deal with these intrusive thoughts, these self-confidence issues, self-judgment. 00:53:53:12 - 00:54:07:00 Speaker 2 Yeah, this is part of the human experience, Tracy. And often they don't seem to come from within us. Sometimes they just come out of nowhere. The the, you know, the the time where we least want it to be there. 00:54:07:02 - 00:54:30:11 Speaker 1 You know, this really isn't a new concept to anyone who thinks it is. Go read The Screwtape Letters, C.S. Lewis, where a senior devil is training a junior devil, and you read their letters back and forth. And what's very clear is that in CS Lewis understanding of this, there aren't just some people being targeted by this. To be human is to be targeted every moment of every day. 00:54:30:12 - 00:54:56:17 Speaker 1 Whenever an entity can get to you that we live in a, an a realm where that is part of the experience. And so this is an absolutely fascinating book. I would encourage everybody to read it if you haven't, regardless of your religious beliefs, but it's basically a a senior entity training this junior entity on how to reach a person entirely through thought. 00:54:56:19 - 00:55:18:21 Speaker 1 And if you can't get him, get his mom to through her thoughts to do something that will annoy him and drop his frequency. And C.S. Lewis doesn't use the word frequency, but it's all about getting the person out of alignment with God into alignment with their own ego, or into fear, into anger, into anything other than love toward their fellow human beings. 00:55:18:23 - 00:55:47:05 Speaker 1 And I think that C.S. Lewis is right about the hierarchy. We've heard this from other people as well. There's a gentleman named Chris O'Connor who we met virtually last year, who's been an absolutely fascinating part of our part of our curriculum, if you will. And he spoke about this as well, that there are hierarchies and that everybody is being attacked by foot soldiers. 00:55:47:07 - 00:56:13:08 Speaker 1 The annoying thoughts you get that time you're just walking down the road, and some thought comes to you that you should do something crazy or horrific that, or even just the the voice chattering in your head that's saying it's complaining about your spouse or your boss or your kids behavior this morning and trying to get your attention to focus on that, that these are all generating an energy that's harvestable. 00:56:13:08 - 00:56:39:11 Speaker 1 If we let it drop us into a state of negativity. And then, of course, that there are these much greater, stronger, forces and that the hierarchy is a pretty strong one. I think it bears saying, though, that the one thing that all of them are susceptible to, that the one thing that they are powerless against is love. 00:56:39:11 - 00:57:00:14 Speaker 1 And we'll get into that more later. But, it isn't to be afraid of the hierarchy to know it exists. It's simply, again, Chase Hughes is a guy that many of you may know, but he will always say the easiest person to influence is the person who believes they cannot be influenced. And so this isn't a conversation where you should be afraid. 00:57:00:14 - 00:57:04:13 Speaker 1 It's just be aware these things exist because then you can do something about it. 00:57:04:15 - 00:57:43:22 Speaker 2 Yeah. You bring up a incredible point about the role of fear. You know, many people who've been victims of trauma then are afraid to go back and live their life. And some of the most effective ways of intervening are through exposure therapies. Simply, of course, when you know that person is removed from the danger of that situation. But the repeated exposure to situations under support, under care and being able to kind of like move through that fear to again return to living fully in the moment, out of the danger of that previous point in your life, is a just critical way of working with somebody. 00:57:44:00 - 00:58:16:04 Speaker 2 And like once you get through those stages, eventually you have to see what has happened to you from the whole new lens. And this is the incredible literature on post-traumatic growth, that people can make incredible leaps in growth in their lives from going through hell. And so I can't help but think about this in terms of the dark night of the soul and the hero's journey that we are to face these challenges because transformation is on the other side of them. 00:58:16:07 - 00:58:42:16 Speaker 2 And these demonic forces are often trying to just keep you in fear, because if you're no longer in fear, they cannot harvest your energy. They've lost you. And as we move further into this conversation, you are right. We have to talk about what the dialectical opposite is of the energy to fear, and that is love. And that's why perfect love casts out fear. 00:58:42:20 - 00:59:09:20 Speaker 2 It's why we have love the people and why we have be not afraid, because we're actually communicating in terms of energy of this universe. And we got into this conversation with Jerry, which I think opens up the opportunity for us to get into some real details about how to protect yourselves. Take a look, Jerry. 00:59:09:20 - 00:59:11:12 Speaker 5 Are all these entities. 00:59:11:14 - 00:59:18:09 Speaker 2 Are they the same, or is there various forms of negative or dark entities? 00:59:18:14 - 00:59:48:17 Speaker 4 Yeah, there's many different forms of dark entities. And, you know, not all of them that cause forces are dark entities. Like there was one that I was dealing with where I was talking to the voice and it was causing problems. And I said, how did you get into this guy? How did you get into this prisoner? And it replied, it said, when I was driving my motorcycle down the highway and I got hit by a car and I was, I guess I was killed. 00:59:48:17 - 01:00:13:02 Speaker 4 I was floating out of my body. I didn't know where to go or what to do. And I saw the prisoner driving his motorcycle down the highway. So I just went and jumped on him. And I can't get out now. Okay, so, he wasn't necessarily a demonic entity, but he didn't belong there, you know? And there's different levels of them, too. 01:00:13:03 - 01:00:42:07 Speaker 4 It's like, I remember there was there was one where. Who was this? Baldwin wrote a book. Release entity, release therapy, big, thick book. And there was one prisoner I was working with where he had two voices, and and I was doing what Baldwin Baldwin said. I talked to him, and I read the first one. I said, well, you know. 01:00:42:09 - 01:01:04:15 Speaker 4 How do you are you happy doing what you're doing? And he goes, no, not really. I'm bored stiff. I said, what are you just tormenting this person over and over, doing the same thing over and over. Are you happy doing that? And he goes, well, not really. And that's. Well, why do you do it? And he said, well, they told me that if I didn't do what they said, I would cease to exist. 01:01:04:17 - 01:01:19:19 Speaker 4 And I said that they tell you you have no light in you. He said, yeah, they told me you have no light, I have no light. And if I didn't do what they do, what they told me, I would just cease to exist. I said, okay, let's go see if you have no light. And I said, come on. 01:01:19:21 - 01:01:40:16 Speaker 4 Follow me. We're going to go look. So I just imagined we're going into this entity and looking for the light. And I would say, okay, do you see it yet? You go, no. Said, okay, let's go a little further. You see it yet? No, it's okay. Let's keep going. And I said, do you see it now? He said, I see a dim orange light. 01:01:40:18 - 01:02:01:21 Speaker 4 And now this surprised me. I said, well, how do you feel? You see the light? How do you feel about your higher ups lying to you? And he was furious. And I'm like, well, you know, he was a liar, too. He was telling all kinds of lies to this patient. Why would he get upset when he was being lied to? 01:02:01:23 - 01:02:19:12 Speaker 4 But he was furious that he had light in him and that they told him he didn't and that that was consistent. You know, when I talked to a number of these voices, they were all furious that they were lied to, that they didn't have any light in them. And that just puzzled me. I'm like, why is that happening? 01:02:19:15 - 01:02:35:02 Speaker 4 I couldn't figure it, you know, because they were all liars. So what happened with this one is we got to the light and I said, stick your hand in the light. And he goes, no, no, I'll get burned. I was told I get burned. The light was dangerous. So go ahead and stick your hand in there just for a second. 01:02:35:08 - 01:02:54:08 Speaker 4 And he did. And I said, don't burn you. And he goes, no. Said, well, okay, enter the light. So he enters the light. And I said, now call somebody that you trust who has passed away to come and take you out of here. He goes, I don't know, I'm afraid. I said, listen, you've already broken a number of their rules. 01:02:54:08 - 01:03:21:16 Speaker 4 You've spoken to me, which is a punishable offense. You're going to go to the pit for that. You know, you've listened to what I said. You've they're going to get you there waiting to to punish you for talking to me and listening to what I said and following my directions and admitting that you exist. I mean, so I said, you either go into the light and ask somebody to come and get you or they're going to they're going to throw you in the pit. 01:03:21:17 - 01:03:38:05 Speaker 4 They're going to torment you for a long time. So he asked for somebody to come and it was his uncle, or somebody came and picked him up. And I said, do you trust him? And he goes, yeah, I trust him. I said, well, go ahead and go with him. Okay. So he went and that voice was gone. Yeah. 01:03:38:09 - 01:03:57:16 Speaker 4 So then we did the same thing with the second one. And this, this prisoner said he was only hearing two voices and we got rid of the second one the same way. And I said, okay, you're clear. And you said, no, I'm not clear. I hear another one. I said, you told me you only were hearing two, and you said, no, there's a third one. 01:03:57:16 - 01:04:14:17 Speaker 4 And I said, we're dad. One come from. He said, that's their boss. And he's pissed. He's really pissed. He, he, he doesn't like what you did. He's really angry. And, you know, I talked to the boss. I said, do you want to get out of here? And he said, no, and you know, no way. And he was just he was just mad. 01:04:14:19 - 01:04:34:15 Speaker 4 So I, I didn't feel like I was supposed to be talking to these things after a while, once I found out kind of what they were. But I saw these patterns. They were running. And these patterns are like an operational definition of what they are. And the first ones I found was that they were negative. They were anti-religious. 01:04:34:18 - 01:05:02:08 Speaker 4 There was one patient at the state hospital I remember once says the voices were tormenting me all night. So I started repeating in 23rd Psalm. And he said they reacted to the 23rd Psalm like, worms thrown on a hot frying pan. And I went, well, that's odd. So I started passing out the 23rd Psalm to my other schizophrenic patients, and I said, you're useless against the voices whenever they come, start repeating this. 01:05:02:10 - 01:05:29:11 Speaker 4 And I brought them back in a week. And I said, well, how'd that work? They said the voices didn't like it. They didn't like it at all, and that it upset them. And I said, well, if it didn't, if it upset them, give them more. Now, this is something that I had never done at the state hospital, because the unwritten rule at the state hospital, because psychiatrists were being assaulted was you don't do anything to schizophrenics that would upset them unless you absolutely had to. 01:05:29:12 - 01:05:56:13 Speaker 4 Okay. In the in the state prison, that place was set up for violence. They they were guards all over the place. You know, violence was a normal part of life in that place. So, I wasn't worried about setting a, you know, setting off schizophrenics. And if they, you know, if one would go to the warden and say, hey, the psych is asking me all these questions about the voices, and he's upsetting me, and I don't like it. 01:05:56:15 - 01:06:03:21 Speaker 4 The warden would most likely go, hey, get out of my face. I got better things to do. Go play off in the prison yard or something. Get out of here. 01:06:03:23 - 01:06:21:14 Speaker 1 Hey, fans of radically genuine. If you're looking for more content like this, please come join us at Radically genuine.com. We have two exclusive membership tiers for you to choose from. Our community members have access to the aftershow, which is a deep dive Roger and I do following every guest episode. Members of our inner circle are those who desire more. 01:06:21:19 - 01:06:59:07 Speaker 1 You'll have access to our Hidden Knowledge Secret Wisdom series, as well as content around spirituality, consciousness, health, and the development of alternative systems. You'll have access to exclusive private Q and A's and special private events. Radically genuine is much more than just a podcast. It's a revolution. Come join us at Radically genuine.com. So I actually loved the mention of the 23rd Psalm here, because this is a psalm that I have been fond of, loved my whole life, and have repeated in in my own heart over and over in challenging moments. 01:06:59:09 - 01:07:22:20 Speaker 1 The Lord is my shepherd. I shall not want. He maketh me lie down in green pastures. He leadeth me beside the still waters. He restoreth my soul. He leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake. Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil. For thou art with me. 01:07:23:01 - 01:07:46:12 Speaker 1 Thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me. Thou preparest a table for me in the presence of mine enemies. Thou anointest my head with oil, and my cup runneth over. Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life, and I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever. It's very clear to me why this would be threatening to an entity that thrives on fear. 01:07:46:14 - 01:07:59:01 Speaker 1 Because yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I fear no evil. No matter what you're going through, you do not need to fear because God is right there with you. It is the key. 01:07:59:03 - 01:08:24:05 Speaker 2 Well, I think the key is also to keep going, right? So I think human beings are more controlled by their fear of an outcome than actual experiences that are going on in their lives. And the moral of the story, I think, of every hero's journey is that in the face of that worst potential outcome, you have a choice. 01:08:24:07 - 01:08:51:11 Speaker 2 You can turn around and go back to some perceived sense of security, which that always creates its own problems. Or you can keep going and you realize there was really nothing to be afraid of, and you get over that, like you get past that initial fear, then you're ready to do something that is even more challenging. And this is the process of growth and evolution in our lives. 01:08:51:16 - 01:09:18:17 Speaker 2 And some 23 is letting you know that you are protected. Go. You know, go do that. It feels really, really dark right now. Really really heavy. You don't see any potential way that this is going to work out for you, and you're scared and keep going in this shadow of the valley, this dark valley. Just keep going. You are. 01:09:18:19 - 01:09:26:21 Speaker 2 You are protected. And that's you. Shifting. Then the dial. It is because you're turning to that frequency of God, of love. 01:09:26:23 - 01:09:29:04 Speaker 1 You're climbing slowly out of the valley. 01:09:29:06 - 01:09:29:23 Speaker 2 So for. 01:09:30:01 - 01:09:50:11 Speaker 1 The sun can reach you again. And we were actually talking about this this morning. The two of us about, you know, tuning the dial, being when you're in a tough place and you feel cut off and you don't feel like you can, that conversation you would otherwise be able to have with God is happening. You feel alone that the answer is to climb out of the valley. 01:09:50:12 - 01:10:10:13 Speaker 1 You know, picture our guides. Picture God, picture the higher entity, like the higher frequency beings that want to help us, the angels picture them as, as if they're a radio tower up on the mountain tops. But when you're down in one of these deep valleys, the signal just can't reach you. It's not that they don't want to reach you. 01:10:10:15 - 01:10:26:18 Speaker 1 It's your tuned. You're too low for their frequency to even get to, and you have to climb in faith, in the knowledge, in the certainty that when you manage to get high enough out of that valley, you'll be fine. 01:10:26:19 - 01:10:47:03 Speaker 2 Yeah, you're going to be attacked when you're in fear. Yeah, you're going to be attacked when you're in the depths of darkness, of that low frequency emotion that vibrates very densely and it tracks them. We're trying to get to tune the dial and to continue to keep going. And when you need assistance, you turn that dial and you ask for that protection. 01:10:47:06 - 01:11:14:19 Speaker 2 And what's fascinating is Jerry's talking about light. Now, you and I learned from Chris O'Connor, who's going to be a future guest here. He is a fascinating, fascinating person who's gifted and has experience in multiple dimensions and how to deal with these entities. He provided us a way of dealing with that light. Do you remember that exact kind of technique? 01:11:14:21 - 01:11:20:20 Speaker 2 Because you and I are now employing it. We're using it frequently, yes. 01:11:20:22 - 01:11:48:11 Speaker 1 And we use it every day. I mean, it's it is the way to start the day every day, but it's to find a spark of light in your heart. And you can think of anyone you love, feel that spark start and then build it out. Build the light, put your attention there. Build it, build it, build it, build it, build it until it's out past your fingertips, and then do the same in the center of your of your mind, a spark of light. 01:11:48:16 - 01:12:06:22 Speaker 1 Put your attention on it. Feel the love. See the light. Build it, build it, build it, build it, build it out. And that these are literal energetic fields that you are surrounding yourself with, that are powerful, and that you set in the intention that nothing will enter this except that is what is for my own good and of the light. 01:12:07:03 - 01:12:34:03 Speaker 1 And then you proceed into your day without fear. And when you stop and you notice you've drifted, or you've gone a little unconscious for a bit, generate the field again. And that combined with intentionally aligning with, with God, with the angels, with the higher is incredibly powerful. And it's something that you and I would, I think at this point, never start our day not doing. 01:12:34:05 - 01:13:04:22 Speaker 2 Yeah. As we opened up this podcast, consciousness is primary. So where you're going to focus your attention right, is a powerful energy force. And so when you start shifting to the upper room to the higher right, and light is almost that metaphorical visual of the highest energetic field, which is that of love. Right? So if you can feel, see, experience it with all your senses and build that out, there is literally a protective field. 01:13:05:00 - 01:13:22:14 Speaker 2 Now, your mind may get fragmented and you might draw your your attention to something that brings down your energy. That's normal. That's part of this experience. It's an observance of that and bringing your attention back to this moment in an alignment. And you have to sometimes do that day in and day out. Yeah, out the day. 01:13:22:16 - 01:13:23:10 Speaker 1 It's not a one. 01:13:23:10 - 01:13:45:05 Speaker 2 Off thing. No. It's just part of of living. Right. And if you're more of an observer who's conscious and connected, it becomes easier in time. But if you're just completely distracted and fragmented, not present or conscious, you are always fragmenting your energy in all different types of ways, and you're making yourself vulnerable because you may be living in those low density fields. 01:13:45:07 - 01:13:52:21 Speaker 2 We have a story to tell who starts this story? I think I start the story and you finish it. Yeah. 01:13:52:23 - 01:13:58:11 Speaker 1 You tell you, I would say, you know, you take it up to the point where you were telling me what had happened. 01:13:58:12 - 01:14:13:21 Speaker 2 Yeah. So it's this exact place where we're living and working currently. When we came for the visit and we were with the realtor and we were moving through one of the barn houses, one of the homes. 01:14:13:23 - 01:14:14:12 Speaker 1 And this is an. 01:14:14:12 - 01:14:16:05 Speaker 2 Old 1767. 01:14:16:06 - 01:14:17:02 Speaker 1 Yeah. Old home. 01:14:17:03 - 01:14:48:12 Speaker 2 Okay. And there is there's separate quarters and there's the, the oldest part where we were entering into an attic and I opened the door and I felt hit by an attachment. So let me explain what that would mean to anybody who is attuned to this or sensitive to this. It's like a feeling of chills. You get kind of cold and your mood gets tanked. 01:14:48:14 - 01:15:17:15 Speaker 2 So it's automatically like a drop in your energy. You feel those chills, and in time, if not automatically, you receive thought attacks. Now they can come in various forms. And I told you, I believe on the drive home that's something got attached to me. What do you recall about that moment? 01:15:17:17 - 01:15:37:00 Speaker 1 You were very quiet for, you know, the rest of our visit, a little like slightly irritable, but mostly just quiet. And on the drive home you just turned to me and you said something attached to me in that house as I went up to the attic. 01:15:37:02 - 01:16:01:00 Speaker 1 And I'm getting a lot of thought attacks. And based on these thought attacks, this is what I can tell you about what attacked me. I think it's a man. I think he died in the house. He hates women. He's trying to turn me against you. And he. He's making me crave alcohol. I don't drink, but he's making me crave drinking, so I think he was probably an alcoholic. 01:16:01:02 - 01:16:36:06 Speaker 1 He's making me feel angry and miserable. So I think he was probably a pretty angry and miserable person. And I have this gut feeling there was a murder. I don't know if he killed someone or if he was killed, but I have a feeling there was a murder. So like, you know, fun conversation to be having. But this is just a few weeks after Chris O'Connor had gone on beyond telling us how to generate light, to talking about how to get rid of entity attachments because he's had to do this, both for individuals and for places that had entities attached to the place. 01:16:36:08 - 01:17:11:19 Speaker 1 There was a psychiatric hospital, I think it was in the Los Angeles area where he had experienced that there were many spirits that were stuck there, and he would have been helping them to leave. And so what he explained was not too different from what Jerry said, which was what you've probably got is an entity who has been enslaved by a higher ranking demon and is doing what they feel they should or is doing what they're told, but they don't feel they have a choice about it. 01:17:11:21 - 01:17:34:19 Speaker 1 They feel they're trapped in this role. And what you do is you do not fear them, because if you fear them, you're able to be attacked by them further, and instead you direct love toward them and you explain you can get out if you want to. You don't have to do this, and you offer to open a portal of light for them to cross back to source. 01:17:34:19 - 01:18:02:15 Speaker 1 And and what, Chris told us was that he would basically give them three options. Look, you can leave forever. Leave this person no longer torment them. Go back to your boss, and you have to promise no one will ever be sent in your place to torment this person. So it's not like you can go and send a replacement, or you can be put into suspended animation for the rest of time, which is kind of like that idea of that you won't exist. 01:18:02:20 - 01:18:20:13 Speaker 1 That was being used as a threat in the story Jerry was telling. Or you can return to God, you can return to source. And I asked him, I asked Chris, like, how often do they want to return to source? And he said, almost always, that's actually their desire and that they almost always have taken him up on that offer. 01:18:20:19 - 01:18:45:13 Speaker 1 And so we're now driving back to where we were living with a apparently an angry alcoholic ghost attached to you. And it was if you hadn't been conscious of what an energy was that was not yours, if you hadn't been conscious of which thoughts were not yours, it would have been unbearable. 01:18:45:15 - 01:19:20:16 Speaker 2 Yeah. And I automatically think, how many people are going through that, not realizing that that's not them, it becomes them. Or other times in my life where I wasn't aware of this, where my mood was impacted out of the blue, or other people's moods are impacted out of the blue. And we approach these cases from our field of psychology and as a therapist as never considering this and how useful that this could be. 01:19:20:18 - 01:19:59:23 Speaker 2 The question that people are having is like, well, this can never how is this this can't be confirmed. Are you concerned about well, are you considered? Are you concerned about the the potential like harm you're doing for this? And before we get to the second part of the story, I would say, well, there's still psychological principles that I would be applying, like this concept of diffusion, the ability to observe your experience without becoming your experience, whether you believe in the energetic attachment aspect of this or not, to understand that thoughts can come from outside of you, and you can be an observer where you don't become that it is absolutely necessary for helping people. 01:20:00:01 - 01:20:05:21 Speaker 2 Now, the second part of this story is the confirmation piece. I'll let you take it from there. 01:20:05:23 - 01:20:10:15 Speaker 1 Yeah. I mean, at some point we've got to talk about how we how we actually dealt with getting rid of the entity. We'll get there. 01:20:10:16 - 01:20:17:07 Speaker 2 Let's talk about that in the. So well let's talk about that in the final segment where we get to talk about how we utilize all these things. 01:20:17:07 - 01:20:42:20 Speaker 1 So this is you know, this occurred back in I would say May we moved into this property in July. Yes, we still moved in after that happened because we do not live from fear. But what, maybe three weeks ago, we're at a little neighborhood gathering potluck and this one neighbor just love her. We'd never met her before, but this, this little high energy, no filters. 01:20:42:20 - 01:21:20:08 Speaker 1 Lady, we're like two minutes into talking to her and she's like, so, does anyone tell you about the ghosts yet? No. And another neighbor goes, oh, come on. We said we weren't going to tell anyone else that story. And of course, in that moment we really want to hear this story. And she proceeds to tell us that an episode of The Dead Files was filmed at this property, that in the barn where we filmed this, there had been a demon and an exorcist was brought in from the Philadelphia archdiocese, and then an exorcist was brought in from Rome to remove it. 01:21:20:10 - 01:21:35:09 Speaker 1 We are happy to tell you that this barn has incredible energy in it now. So it is whatever that was, is gone. But that there was a different presence in the house that's on the property. And. 01:21:35:11 - 01:21:47:17 Speaker 1 So the family that was living there at the time were having a ton of issues, including their teenage daughter becoming violent, incredibly disrespectful to the point they, they actually made her move out. 01:21:47:20 - 01:21:48:22 Speaker 2 Abusing substances. 01:21:48:23 - 01:22:10:00 Speaker 1 Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's a good point. Abusing substances too. And then, the mother was becoming quite ill in the house, and so they brought someone in who was energy sensitive, and they brought someone in who was a detective. And the two of them conduct parallel investigations, come together at the end, and this is what they dug up. 01:22:10:02 - 01:22:42:07 Speaker 1 So the, the, the psychic or whoever figures out that there's appears to be two spirits present that are both disembodied human humans, like former humans, a man and a woman, that they're both awful, can't stand each other. And the, detective discovers that there was, yes, a murder on the property. There was a, an Austrian immigrant couple that moved into 1929. 01:22:42:07 - 01:23:12:06 Speaker 1 And in 1939, the man who was an abusive, female hating, alcoholic, check, check, check attacked his son with a knife. The wife defended the son and at that point he came after the wife. The wife grabbed a shotgun and then proceeded to kill him. When he would not stop, it was declared self-defense. Of course, none of us were there, so we can't tell you for sure what happened. 01:23:12:08 - 01:23:46:05 Speaker 1 But as the two of us are hearing this story from the neighbors, we just look at each other because this is exactly what you told me. Were the characteristics of this person down to the fact that a murder had taken place. And we knew I can confirm none of us. And so this was really confirmation of trusting our gut, trusting you on your energy sensitivity, and recognizing, yet again, you know, I feel like in the journey of life, we sometimes get training wheels until we learn to ride the bike. 01:23:46:05 - 01:24:04:07 Speaker 1 And one of those is we are given confirmations of the things that we know, but may be doubt. And this was one of those times where we were given a very, very strong real life confirmation. What was funny was I remember the neighbors all kind of wondering if we were going to now want to move out and being utterly shocked to hear. 01:24:04:08 - 01:24:11:19 Speaker 1 Oh, no. Yeah, we've met him. He's gone now. But yeah, we definitely experienced this guy. 01:24:11:21 - 01:24:40:13 Speaker 2 Yeah, we got into more of this with with Jerry, I, I was very fascinating by how we may be able to intervene with these entities. So I asked him about what happens then when you, when you implement Psalm 23 over and over again, like, if this is something that is done repeatedly, what may be the results? 01:24:40:15 - 01:24:45:09 Speaker 5 So, Jerry, what was the what was the effect of Psalm 23 repeated over and. 01:24:45:09 - 01:24:47:02 Speaker 2 Over again? 01:24:47:04 - 01:25:17:09 Speaker 4 They would lose the the paper, they would forget to repeat it. And when they did repeat it, it would upset the voices that they didn't like it. So what I would do is every time I found something that upset them, I would tell the patient to do it more, you know? And it was it was a way that the patient was slowly found that he had some kind of control over the voices, even if it was so upset them. 01:25:17:11 - 01:25:54:23 Speaker 1 This is fascinating to me about the light because I I've heard this before, and it rings true for me that everything is ultimately of the light. Everything is ultimately of God. Every being is ultimately of God. But the deeper that one is in separation, the more one believes that one is in darkness, and that the way that the dark can control is by convincing a being that there is no light in them, and that the key is to lead a being that is in darkness, to remembrance of their light, and remembrance of their light transforms them, gives them hope. 01:25:54:23 - 01:25:58:07 Speaker 1 The hope raises their frequency, and they are able to escape. 01:25:58:09 - 01:25:59:16 Speaker 4 Well, they're not. 01:25:59:18 - 01:26:15:01 Speaker 1 Directing love at these beings is one of the keys. Yes, we are afraid of them. We feed them if we are in, if we feeling of love and concern for them, we are inherently and completely powerful compared to them in that moment. 01:26:15:06 - 01:26:36:01 Speaker 4 Yes, you're right, they hate love. If you send them love, they can't stand it. It's like burning them with a blowtorch, you know? Now, I couldn't send them love because they're so disgusting, you know, like I don't want I. I don't like them. Okay. But. And I asked one lady who was sending them love. I said, how do you do it? 01:26:36:02 - 01:26:53:06 Speaker 4 And she said, well, I just think about somebody I love, you know, like my kids or my mother or something like that. And then I just transfer that same kind of love over to them, and they can't deal with it, so they hate it. It was another thing that they hate. 01:26:53:08 - 01:27:22:02 Speaker 1 Now we get into my favorite part of all of this, and that is what we can do about it. And the answer is get into the frequency of love. What's so clear from everyone we've talked to and from our own experiences is if you are in the frequency of love, you are not touchable. And this is why the entities spend so much effort in keeping somebody in shame and guilt and anger and frustration because they lose all power. 01:27:22:07 - 01:27:34:05 Speaker 1 If you leave those energetic states, they cannot hold on to you. They can't even see you. You are 1 million times more powerful than they are the minute you release fear and move entirely into love. 01:27:34:07 - 01:28:09:23 Speaker 2 Yeah, I thought it was fascinating when Jerry made this comment that he saw it all as disgusting, and he couldn't get into that state of love. And I empathize with him because in our training, our boot camp were reflecting on a lot of Jesus's sayings. His preach preachings specifically are like loving your enemies. And we were we were talking about various events that might pop up in culture, like, how do you love somebody who has murdered a child or raped or started, you know, a conflict, a war, a terrorist? 01:28:10:04 - 01:28:42:21 Speaker 2 And we would get back into these intellectual discussions, where I was certainly out of the frequency of love. And I would say to you. Well, my whole life has been about trying to protect the vulnerable, the innocent, the harmed. That is so hard to get into that frequency of love when you're facing such evil, such darkness. And how do you do it? 01:28:42:23 - 01:29:01:03 Speaker 1 The way I do it is I try to see to the center of the actual essence of whoever I'm dealing with. I am including that any entity because everything ultimately is of God. I don't get this right all the time, but this is what I try to do. 01:29:01:05 - 01:29:40:01 Speaker 1 At its core, everything is of God. When it's gone to the dark, it is simply forgotten that and it no longer knows it is of God. And I believe that redemption comes from remembering. Remembering that you are of the light and the light is still in you. I believe every soul that's here on earth has light in it, no matter how much evil that person has done, and that there is not one soul alive, that Jesus would have refused entrance to Paradise if they sought redemption. 01:29:40:01 - 01:29:59:13 Speaker 1 Look at the thief standing next to him on the cross. One of his final acts is to say, you know you will be with me in Paradise. And this isn't an upstanding citizen. This is somebody that has violated other people around them to degree that they've been given the capital punishment. 01:29:59:15 - 01:30:30:15 Speaker 1 I believe redemption comes through love. And I love what Jerry said about asking the being to look within them. And until they finally found this little pale light, and then the being had enough hope to step into the light and return to God. And so what I do in scenarios like this is it's true. There's times where you're dealing with a human being or an entity that you really have a very difficult time generating love in the face of. 01:30:30:15 - 01:30:51:02 Speaker 1 And so I do exactly what the lady and Jerry story did. I returned to in my heart, to somebody that I love so, so, so much. I get that love fire going. So when I say this, what I mean is you go inside, you put your awareness in your heart. And in my case, I think about my nieces or my nephews whom I love so, so much. 01:30:51:04 - 01:31:07:05 Speaker 1 And you can just you feel an expansion in your chest, you feel a warmth. And then I build that, and I build that, and I build it, and then I direct it toward the person or toward the entity who doesn't seem, on the surface, to be deserving of that love. 01:31:07:07 - 01:31:16:23 Speaker 2 Yeah, I'll add something, because this is what has served me, is that I've tried to see beyond the illusion. I try to understand the. 01:31:17:00 - 01:31:17:15 Speaker 5 Very. 01:31:17:15 - 01:31:31:09 Speaker 2 Very temporary nature of this one moment in all of eternity, and that we're all souls that are evolving towards. 01:31:31:11 - 01:32:02:02 Speaker 2 An experience or a connection to the oneness of all things. Right? We're moving up a scale or evolving in our vibrating our vibrational energy towards becoming pure love, and we all struggle in it. I do believe we've lived many, many, many lives. And at some point, you know, we have been in that darkness, in that separation. And so it's trying to see past the illusion. 01:32:02:02 - 01:32:27:08 Speaker 2 This is where forgiveness is critically important. Important. You, of course, generate that frequency of love in any way that you potentially can, but see this as only a moment. It's going to come and it's going to go. That person is going to be is going to die, be brought back to God. There'll be more experiences. I kind of have to look at it as, as a game that I'm not here to really judge anybody. 01:32:27:10 - 01:32:54:14 Speaker 2 I'm only here to be able to try and be love. Because if this is a journey towards unconditional love, and we do want to follow a lot of those universal teachings from Jesus to across cultures, is that is ultimately going to bring us the greatest degree of joy and provide us the most power to influence reality. So we should, as much as possible, try to get into that state. 01:32:54:17 - 01:33:23:10 Speaker 2 And again, it's not in any way a cultural commentary on there is no consequence towards action. Because that has to be clear, is because we are responsible for all our actions and behaviors. And that means because of our harm to others that were removed from society, at least for a temporary period of time. Well, that's ten years, ten days, 100 years, whatever that is. 01:33:23:12 - 01:33:32:08 Speaker 2 If you still look at it as an opportunity for a holy, transformational experience, as is everything in your life, it will transform you. 01:33:32:10 - 01:33:56:19 Speaker 1 It's so true. And yes, this is not to say that somebody who commits an atrocity should not be removed from society because they're a danger to people. It's not that at all. It's not to deny what somebody has done, it's simply to see the divine inside them and look past the surface. And when you look past, the surface is where you are in your greatest power. 01:33:56:19 - 01:34:06:01 Speaker 1 And so it's, you know, in the case of the, the entity that attached to you, we should get back to what we did with that. How do we handle that? Do you want to start? 01:34:06:03 - 01:34:36:22 Speaker 2 Well, I can only tell you what I did. Okay. So for me, it was using those techniques for, as you know, I was an observer of the experience and I wasn't attaching to it. So I had to get into meditation and take the light inside of me and build that light and approach that entity with the power that I have as a divine being of light, and knowing that they really have no way to influence me. 01:34:37:00 - 01:35:04:12 Speaker 2 I have my own sovereignty and freedom. I'm not going to respond to its presence and fear. I'm not going to go drink. I'm not going to be judgmental. I'm not going to start a fight with you. I'm just going to observe that experience and gently ask that being, well, not gently. I commanded that being to leave and return to to God I. 01:35:04:13 - 01:35:19:17 Speaker 2 That's the only choice I gave him. But you're leaving now, right? And I, I, I did use, you know. Jesus, I did call in Saint Michael, and that's what I did. I think we also had a certain frequency of music that was playing. 01:35:19:18 - 01:35:49:19 Speaker 1 Yeah. So I had, I realized that we needed to basically set up a sacred space. We needed to set up a high frequency, sacred space in which to get this thing to go. And that, one of the best ways to do that is, is through music. And so I'd put on this beautiful a cappella soundtrack I had of these angelic hymns, and I'm then directing energy, directing Light to You. 01:35:49:19 - 01:36:16:18 Speaker 1 I'm directing light toward this being, and I'm inviting it to return to God. And as I'm doing that, this him comes on. It's not well known when it's actually I've only heard it on this one soundtrack. And in the culture where I grew up, and it's translated from the German, and it's this song about a, a soul who believes there irredeemable and can no longer return to God. 01:36:16:20 - 01:36:41:06 Speaker 1 And this song is just so beautiful, and it's this soul saying, I cannot get back to God. And it's Jesus telling them. All you have to do is to release and repent and you can come into heaven. And so as this song is playing, I'm inviting the, this entity I'm telling you to has to go. But I'm telling it, you don't have to go back to your masters. 01:36:41:08 - 01:36:55:05 Speaker 1 You can return to the light. And then we felt at leave, and I do believe it left to return to it, to source and not to. It's masters that it that it left to return to God. 01:36:55:08 - 01:37:21:22 Speaker 2 The most important thing to communicate is that it relieved me of that urge to drink alcohol. The thought attack. And it's like my my mood cleared. There's just there's darkness, it's heavy. And then it clears and it allows for the light to come in and you become lighter. The final piece of this interview was kind of a focus on what is their ultimate goal. 01:37:22:00 - 01:37:26:02 Speaker 2 And I asked Jerry about that. Take a listen, 01:37:26:04 - 01:37:33:12 Speaker 5 Jerry, what's their what's their ultimate goal? You know, what are these dark entities attempting to do? What do they want to do to. 01:37:33:14 - 01:37:35:07 Speaker 2 Human beings? 01:37:35:09 - 01:37:41:04 Speaker 4 They hate the human race. They absolutely hate the human race, and they especially hate kids. 01:37:41:06 - 01:37:47:07 Speaker 1 So what would you say is the very first thing a person hearing voices needs to understand. 01:37:47:09 - 01:37:49:15 Speaker 4 That they don't come from them. 01:37:49:17 - 01:38:14:15 Speaker 1 This to me is the key is to know that thoughts are not your own. Because if you are unconscious, just going around on autopilot and unaware that things can be coming from outside you, you are completely vulnerable in every moment of your day to being manipulated. If you do know this and you're sensitive to your own energy and you notice when it tanks, you can do something about it. 01:38:14:16 - 01:38:25:12 Speaker 1 And the tools we've talked about today are so are so simple. They're deceptively simple, but they work. You and I are living proof of the fact that these work. 01:38:25:14 - 01:39:14:15 Speaker 2 My final word on this is a few things. One, we're not asking you to accept all of this is truth right now. We're asking you to examine its possibility. Consider just some certain facts that everything is energy. And if we can begin to think about our emotions as energy and motion and our thoughts as energy, then you are at least taking the steps to see where energy outside of you can impact you, whether that's the form of EMF, whether that is the energy that exists on this planet, whether it's a form of energy on a on the Earth, or it's your own internal energy that you have some power to be able to create for 01:39:14:15 - 01:39:52:23 Speaker 2 yourself. It's a paradigm shift. And if we begin to incorporate post material science with spirituality, we create that bridge. We then use the scientific method to start examining these things. We can tell our stories. It's our own form of the scientific method. We're not asking you to trust us. We're not asking you to believe us right now. But with anything, be skeptical, but also consider possibilities, because what we're doing in our health care and our mental health care does not demonstrate the fruits of truth. 01:39:53:01 - 01:40:20:00 Speaker 2 So our paradigm is wrong. And if those who have schizophrenia were just left alone to be managed by drugs, and then we have somebody like Jerry who refuse to accept that, or you have someone like me who refuses to continue to enter into the materials paradigm and had beautiful and miraculous spiritual experiences where the use of energy and love was used. 01:40:20:01 - 01:40:46:08 Speaker 2 Intuition, turning the dial to guides was used to assist people and the outcome was positive. Then that's enough for me that I am now open to moving out of this dark period of materialism, and I am open to considering all possibilities. And we're going to have those conversations that on this platform, we are not only having the conversations of what's done to enslave humanity, but we're having the conversation about how to break the chains. 01:40:46:12 - 01:41:11:06 Speaker 2 And we see this as dark, we see this as spiritual, and there's no way we can dismiss it anymore. And the other platforms, the scientists, the spiritual people who are doing this work, but it's kind of under the the cover of darkness, metaphorically, because they're afraid to speak out about it because of what could happen in their field. 01:41:11:12 - 01:41:29:18 Speaker 2 Well, we're here to tell you to keep walking, keep doing this work. It is to serve humanity's greater good. Tracy and Jerry, for your time with us, this was a radically genuine conversation.