Latest / Blind Guys Chat / #154: A Meta glasses skeptic!

Transcript

#154: A Meta glasses skeptic! · Blind Guys Chat

• 0:13
  Welcome to Blind Guy's Chat, where Oren O'Neill—
• 0:17
  Hello!
• 0:17
  Jan Bloem—
• 0:18
  Hello!
• 0:19
  And Mohammed Lashir—
• 0:20
  Hi there!
• 0:22
  Talk about the A to Z of life.
• 0:30
  Well, hello, ladies and gentlemen, and you're very welcome to episode 154 of Blind Guys Chat. Now, believe it or believe it not, in fact, do believe it because we are honored.
• 0:42
  Yep.
• 0:44
  No, hang on. That's, that's quite a big word, isn't it?
• 0:46
  Privileged.
• 0:47
  Yeah. Privileged. Yeah. Um, yeah, you know, it's nice.
• 0:52
  It's nice to have, um, it's all right. It's all right.
• 0:55
  It's all right to have a former colleague of ours back here, former co-host. Mr. Stuart Lawler, how are you doing? You're welcome back to the podcast.
• 1:05
  Yep. Thank you. Do you know, you guys sound like that scene out of the Muppets, out of the Muppets, and they go, it was brilliant. It was good. It was okay. So, you know, I really feel, I don't know how to feel after that intro, but I can't believe you're on 154. I think I left at 87. So what have you been doing for all these episodes? Great things.
• 1:24
  They've basically just been letting me talk.
• 1:27
  Yeah, yeah, that's true. We were listening. That's true.
• 1:30
  Cutting off like at the hour mark and then that was it.
• 1:34
  Well, I must say, society knows everything about everything. Uh, yeah, so he's a resident expert for everything.
• 1:40
  Yeah, he's a lawyer also, you know. You know, he knows—
• 1:43
  lawyer. I'm an expert on everything and anything.
• 1:46
  Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's almost like AI, you know.
• 1:49
  They, they also do it, but AI hallucinates, not me. Yeah, well, you have to clean the office.
• 1:56
  The Blind Guys Chat office looks pretty good. Desks are clean.
• 2:01
  No, no, no, I think you should not smell the one.
• 2:03
  No, the beer cans are gone, Jan.
• 2:05
  And the pizza, the Kevin's pizza boxes.
• 2:08
  Yeah, we like it.
• 2:08
  I ate it all. It's fine. It's gone.
• 2:11
  Come here. Do you want to hear a great one that I just heard this evening from somebody who's not on the show this evening? Well, no, she's probably listening in. But I was told this one this evening. One advantage of being blind, you no longer get paper cuts.
• 2:31
  I'd slightly— well, it depends. I've had several Braille paper cuts taking paper out of Braille machines, so, um, and they're not nice. In fact, I would think they're a bit worse because it's that very thick paper, very sharp edges.
• 2:46
  Yeah, anyway, that put me in my place.
• 2:51
  Okay, okay.
• 2:52
  Ah, yeah, yeah, there you go.
• 2:54
  Well, well, you know what they say to, to me, you know, with the advanced, you know, you don't see all the, all the items you have lost, or, or they— you're not cleaning up well enough, you know. That is when I pass by the kitchen and they say, oh, you know, oh yeah, it's all fine, you know, no worries. Or the table, whatever.
• 3:11
  I mean, can't you see it's a mess?
• 3:13
  Yum, clean up!
• 3:15
  That's a man thing. Yeah, I'm just— oh, that's fine, it's fine.
• 3:18
  But how are you alone?
• 3:20
  Like, women sometimes find like plates and stuff Stuff like that. You're like, did I leave this here? I left this. I'm a slob.
• 3:27
  I'm horrible.
• 3:28
  But you know, it is what it is.
• 3:31
  Yeah.
• 3:31
  Okay. Anyway, yeah, welcome. Mr. Lord is here with us. He's going to talk. We're going to talk about, um, yeah, why is he on the show? Well, he wants to—
• 3:39
  why am I here? That's a great question. Yeah, he wants to come back.
• 3:43
  I just, I just want to say that my predecessor is more than welcome.
• 3:48
  Uh, bless you. Bless you. You're being mean. You're very kind. I always knew he was a nice man. I'm very glad he's taken over.
• 3:57
  Thank you, Stuart.
• 4:00
  Anyway, Stuart, before we get talking about trivial things like credit cards and Meta glasses, tell us about your upcoming gig that you're trying to sell. You're trying to pawn off some gear, aren't you?
• 4:15
  Oh yeah, the usual.
• 4:15
  We are trying to pawn off technology. We're also excited to, I suppose, launch our kind of by now annual, um, community technology fest, I suppose we call it. Um, this year we're running it in association with Technological University Dublin in Grangegorman and with the School of Computer Science, and it's on the 12th and 13th of October. So it's in the Central Quad, which is a very nice big open space with some exhibition stands on Monday the 12th of October is going to be open from 11 AM to 5 PM and Tuesday the 13th from 10 until 2. But there's other things happening as well.
• 5:01
  That's because you need to sleep after that, a little, 2 to half 2 or 3, is it? You need a little—
• 5:06
  Well, yeah, siesta, obviously.
• 5:08
  Yeah, well, it's not Spain, it's not Spanish time, you know, come on.
• 5:12
  Ireland, Spain, it's all the same.
• 5:15
  Yeah, they all sleep, you know, just minus the weather.
• 5:19
  Oh yeah.
• 5:20
  So we're doing this, we're doing this actually on the back of World Sight Day, which is the— it was actually the week before. It's the 8th of October. So I'm sure you guys will be talking about World Sight Day. But we're running alongside our— there'll be an exhibition of assistive technology. There'll be some of our charity partners, some of the big sight loss charities in Ireland, like Child Vision, Vision Ireland, Irish Guide Dogs, Fighting Blindness, the Anne Sullivan Centre, and Vision Sports are all going to be present. And the Community Hub for Assistive Technology and Sarah Boland, who was on your show before, will be there delivering a workshop.
• 6:05
  Oh, great.
• 6:06
  There's going to be workshops around some of the research projects that are being done in TU Dublin by some of their students. So loads of things going on on Monday and Tuesday. And then on Wednesday, for people who aren't in Dublin, we're going to Cork, and we'll be at the Guide Dog Centre in Ballincollig, Irish Guide Dog Centre in Ballincollig, from 11 AM to 4 PM. So it's a chance to look at technology, both from sight and sound, and the brands that we represent. And Optelec, Jan's friends from the Netherlands, are going to be with us. And also Synaptic, who do the smartphones, the Synaptic tablets, the new smartwatch.
• 6:51
  Okay.
• 6:53
  So we'd love to see people. We'd love to meet people, talk about technology, but also meet our charity partners. And just, I suppose, come and meet other visually impaired people or find out about other services that you might not know about already.
• 7:09
  This has been running in Grangegorman for a couple of years now, hasn't it?
• 7:12
  This is the 4th year. This is the 4th year we've done this.
• 7:15
  Yeah. And what's the general reaction like? Is it usually packed out?
• 7:19
  It's been— it's gotten— I think it's expanded every year. It's sometimes hard to gauge, especially in Grangegorman where it's a very busy space anyway, because it's on a college campus, a university campus, and there's lots of students coming in and out throughout the day. But that, but that's also in part, that's the interesting thing, because we have a lot of conversations with people about technology and people who might be interested in doing, you know, research projects or might be interested in finding out about more, more about the technology. Um, so that, that's good. And I think for the charities and other people who come to the exhibition, there is a good chance for them to talk about their services and hopefully reach some more people. And on the Monday evening, we're going to be having a fireside chat about the future of assistive technology in Europe, because this event is also being run under the auspices of the EU presidency. So it is, it has been designated as an EU presidency event, which is really good.
• 8:27
  Wow.
• 8:28
  And where is that going to be?
• 8:29
  So come along. It's going to be in TU Dublin as well, in a lecture room yet to be agreed upon. I believe, at time of recording. But all the information, there's information on sightandsoundtechnology.ie, and we'll be on social media and also carried by the charity partners who are also going to be part of the event. Okay, lots of ways to find out about it. Yeah, I can send some links for your show notes, Oren.
• 8:56
  Please do.
• 8:58
  We do have— it's probably important to say, because when people are planning to go to these exhibitions. We do have sighted guides available for the Dublin days because it's a little bit harder maybe for some people to get to TU Dublin.
• 9:11
  Yeah.
• 9:12
  So if you need to have a sighted guide, you can register and ask for a guide, and we will organize that for you. And guides are going to be available from the city center from Fighting Blindness, so on just up on Hill Street, you can, you can go and meet your guides there and get directly to the exhibition and then get back into the city afterwards.
• 9:33
  Very good. Very good.
• 9:36
  Yeah. And what are the gimmicks, Stuart? What do you present as a nice—
• 9:41
  Well, I suppose there'll be everything from— we'll have obviously, we'll have WeWalk, we'll have the new Braille Sense device from Salvas. We have a couple of new low vision devices, one from Salvas actually called GoVision. We have the new Zoomax range of Magnifiers. Of course, we'll have the new Focus 640 from Vispero, which we're very excited about. But I think it's also a chance just to talk to people about technology. We like to meet people who are using technology, who may have purchased or been in touch with us before. Sometimes people come with a specific question or problem, and we enjoy that as well. So, It's a good opportunity for us to connect with people.
• 10:30
  And will there be, you know, freebies or even a cup of coffee?
• 10:34
  Yeah, promos, whatever.
• 10:36
  Well, look, there'll be something. There'll definitely be an incentive to attend. So we're going to have some offers on some products throughout the week. So you don't have to come to the exhibition to get the offers because not everybody can attend and sometimes people's plans change. So throughout the week of the 12th of October, from the 12th to the 16th, we'll be running a couple of specials.
• 11:03
  Yeah, hopefully, uh, I'll make it there and we'll do some recordings for the—
• 11:07
  Yeah, we'd love to see you there, Oren.
• 11:09
  You're our spy, Mr. Oren. You're our, uh, Mr. Watchman.
• 11:14
  Spy, spy, spy.
• 11:16
  I mean, it's an open event.
• 11:18
  Oh yeah, oh, that's true. Oh yeah. Oh, so you don't need to hide yourself?
• 11:22
  No, no, no, he could be a mystery shopper.
• 11:24
  A mystery show. You know Harry Potter with his invisible cape?
• 11:29
  The invisible cloak?
• 11:31
  Yeah, cloak.
• 11:31
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 11:33
  You never know.
• 11:34
  Yeah, well, going shopping with an invisibility cloak—
• 11:36
  yeah, that is not so really good.
• 11:38
  No, no, particularly if you're blind. I mean, talk, you know.
• 11:40
  Yeah, that's true. You can't see where you're going for a start, so, you know, they can't see you.
• 11:45
  And then of course we are always invisible.
• 11:49
  That's, that's what I'd wonder actually. If you had a bit of an invisibility cloak Would the cane also have to be invisible?
• 11:56
  Well, if you keep it under the cloak, yes. Otherwise it would just be a disembodied cane.
• 12:02
  Does the guide dog have to wear a separate cloak?
• 12:05
  Exactly.
• 12:06
  Yeah. And then you click, click, tick, tick. Hey, well, this is clock, you know.
• 12:13
  All right, well, so that's, that's the, that's the gig in, uh, in October 2013, and we'll put the information on the show notes. Thank you very much, Stuart. I look forward to that and hopefully—
• 12:27
  Thank you, Eoghan. We look forward to seeing you there. And anybody else who is tuned into the podcast, if you're in Dublin or Cork or the surrounds and you want to come along, please do.
• 12:36
  Yeah, just if to do nothing else but to throw apples or oranges at Stuart.
• 12:42
  Yeah, or eggs or bananas or whatever you want.
• 12:45
  Well, I don't know about eggs. You can make a good omelette with it, with eggs.
• 12:51
  Make a nice banana sandwich with bananas either.
• 12:55
  Yeah, yeah, that's true.
• 12:56
  Anyway, just don't throw any food that's too worth it.
• 13:00
  Yeah, thank you.
• 13:01
  You're being so nice.
• 13:02
  I am. He's my predecessor.
• 13:04
  He's a great co-host.
• 13:09
  Yeah, we enjoy it very much.
• 13:12
  Oh yeah, well, there you go. There you go.
• 13:15
  Stick with us for a minute or two because we want to talk to you about some other stuff.
• 13:21
  Yeah.
• 13:21
  Well, the first thing I'll talk to you about is Meta Glasses. And I'm putting a shout out for everyone.
• 13:26
  Yep.
• 13:27
  I have a problem with my Meta Glasses and I've had it for about a week. And I'm wondering, is anybody experiencing this issue? I cannot for the last week and nothing has changed. There may have been a Meta update. I'm not 100% sure. I think there may have been. But I'm up to date with Meta and WhatsApp and what have you, but for some reason I cannot make a call on WhatsApp or send a message on WhatsApp using the Meta Ray-Ban through the Meta AI app and on to WhatsApp. Meta just keeps telling me restart the app, the Meta AI app, and I've done that lots and lots of times and nothing is fixing this problem. Now, Mo did say, and I don't really want to do it, is reset your Meta Glasses, a full reset, but I don't really want to do it. So please, please write to blindguyschat@gmail.com if you've got an answer and if you're experiencing this issue. However, more importantly, somebody on today's show has just bought a pair of Meta Glasses And isn't too impressed with them. Would that be right to say, Stuart?
• 14:39
  Well, I wanted to put it out because especially with you guys who are Meta glasses aficionados, you guys have been using them for ages. And maybe I just don't know. So I've had them for about 4 weeks. And I've probably worn them a handful of times. And I think there's one of the big things for me is I've never worn glasses. So I feel a bit strange with them on. And I suppose the answer to that would be just keep wearing them and you'll get used to them, which is probably true. But I just don't know. I almost don't know what to do with them. Like I say, hey Meta, what can you see? That's fine. I'm kind of wondering what else should I be doing with these things that— because people talk about them being life-changing and I can kind of see that, but maybe I'm just not using them the right way. And I always forget, it reminds me of when I got the Apple Watch originally, I keep forgetting to put it on or I keep forgetting to take it off its charger. And I went months without using it. And then eventually just got used to having it. And I think the reason I got used to it was, or the reason I started using it was because I suddenly developed, I suddenly realized how it could help me as a step counter. That's how I use it a lot. It helps me just getting out and about and Counting my steps and monitoring my heart rate and my sleep. So I can see a definite place in my life for the Apple Watch. I haven't found that place for my Meta glasses yet. I'm just wondering, I'm just putting it out there because I've— they didn't quite have the excitement I thought they were going to have in my life. But maybe that's just me.
• 16:16
  So this is interesting because I only have the Envision Solos, the Ally Solos. which I gave up on approximately in November. And I still haven't seen any reason to go back because there haven't been any updates. But one of the things that I thought, you know, I might use the glasses for at some point was, you know, those moments when you just quickly need to see something. And now I have to pull out my phone and either use Be My Eyes or ChatGPT. But when you have those glasses, you can simply ask the question, um, or call Be My Eyes if you have to, because that works with the Meta glasses too.
• 17:00
  Mm-hmm.
• 17:01
  So let's say you have a can in your hand and you want to know, is this Coke or is this whatever, whatever else it could be, right? So you can quickly just ask that without having to take out your phone and take a picture of the thing. And I, I think it— I would think it starts there, and from there you develop sort of more use cases.
• 17:23
  I understand, Stuart, because then you— because you expect that your eyes are, uh, or that the world is opening for you, you know. That is true.
• 17:31
  But, but yeah, I mean, maybe— I don't know what I expected them to do. No, I'm not— maybe I just didn't understand what— but I think, Mo, it's a good point. One of the things I struggle with with my phone is if someone says hold your phone, you know, 6 inches above a sheet of paper, I have no idea what that means. It just doesn't mean anything to me. I just don't— I'm not able to— I've said this on this podcast before, I think. So yeah, I can see how they'd be good for that because it's probably easier to hold something in front of the glasses and the camera is probably better at picking that up. But I think I just haven't found that, that first real click point for me that says, oh, this is where these are going to be useful. Like, if I went out the door tomorrow and forgot them for a week, I'm not sure I'd miss them at all.
• 18:14
  No, no.
• 18:15
  What I— today, uh, today I, um, I forgot them when I went out with, uh, with Chef because I needed to go, uh, to the, to the shopping center. And they are reconstructing, um, these days our crossing here, uh, our street. And it was really a very annoying situation And in that case, I was really stupid. I found myself very stupid that I forgot them because there was no beeping sound on the traffic light when I came home. And then Chef was not really paying attention, really, you know, that he was stopping at the side of the road. He just walked on and fortunately the car stopped, you know. But I felt a little bit awkward And I felt, whoa, my God, this is an— there was a nice angel on my shoulder, you know, that was protecting me. But now I could really understand, hey, then I could use WhatsApp on the— yeah, then I should not be Oren in a way because that's not working. But in that case, because that is still working on my side and then it's— yeah, then I was really— that is one of the occasions that helpful.
• 19:34
  I tend to agree with you, Stuart. There are uses for it, but there isn't that kind of wow factor.
• 19:41
  No.
• 19:41
  This is, you know, this is my big— I've been missing this for, you know, ever since I went blind. But I think the major benefit is, if there was nothing else on it, is the— okay, not working for me at the moment, but when you could— when you can call somebody with your glasses on WhatsApp, and then just press that side button twice. And instantly, the person you trust on the other end of the phone can see what you're seeing.
• 20:11
  Yeah, I can see how that would be very useful. I mean, are you guys using any of the Live AI apps? Or have you tried? Because again, I haven't really explored those. But is there ones I should be using?
• 20:24
  Or do you know Oriole?
• 20:26
  Yeah.
• 20:27
  Yeah, that's very useful because then they have the option scan nearby, and then it will tell you everything what you're focusing on or pointing at. So that is— so it's quite verbose still. They need to make changes to that. And that is something also annoying because the first thing, oh my God, it is when you're walking, you know, oh, it's reading when a car passed by or a bicycle, whatever, you know. But it also keeps on telling me, dog in front of you, dog in front of you, cane in front of you. That's what I know.
• 21:02
  Yeah.
• 21:02
  Yeah, yeah. Hey, my God. Because, and that shows also, I am bending my head a little bit. That's a trouble of blind people also, that you walk a little bit, that you bow your head a little bit downwards, you know? But that, okay. But so you should, yeah, I know this guy is walking in front of me, you know, and I'm holding a cane, but, But I could see your time, Jan, that that might be—
• 21:27
  if you were using these and you were going to walk into a big parked truck on the pavement, would it give you some alert to that? Or I wonder, can you filter these?
• 21:35
  I think that the boom is faster than the— yeah, you don't try. Yeah, but, but it can help, you know.
• 21:44
  I've heard from people that it helps.
• 21:46
  Yeah, yeah, that's true, that's true, that's true, that's true. But, but it— when, when it's quite busy, Mo, you know, with a lot of cars, etc., then it is, uh, Yeah, well, also, I, I don't trust it when I, I need to cross a bicycle path, you know, when they come from left and right and left and right, you know, then it's, uh, then I'm, uh, yeah, no, that is too much.
• 22:08
  You can't trust it for that. No, for sure.
• 22:11
  No, no, no, no.
• 22:12
  Um, but, but for the, the, the simpler situations where you're just walking on a sidewalk and there's a parked car, yeah, I, I have heard, I mean, again, I don't know But I have heard that that does work.
• 22:24
  Now that's very— that's pretty cool.
• 22:27
  Yeah.
• 22:27
  So is that an alive— is that actually alive?
• 22:30
  Yeah.
• 22:31
  Yes, yes.
• 22:32
  But, but the side effect is that it will drain your battery. And, and I got the, the first generation, and then, you know, it is really, uh, you can have a short— but it can also search for things, you know, when you are searching for a bench or when, uh, and then you can, uh, also, yeah, point your head and walk around and what, and, and then move your head. And then it will also, hey, beep, beep, beep, it will give that.
• 22:58
  And out of interest, are you guys concerned about, because there's been a lot, hasn't there, lately read a lot written and things in the news about big chains. I know Witherspoons have said they're not allowing people use metal glasses in there, in there, or well, smart glasses, not just metal glasses in their pubs. There's a few other, you know, lots of people saying they don't want people using these Um, do you, do you guys, have you ever had that experience, telling people, telling you to take them off or stop using them?
• 23:26
  No, no, not yet.
• 23:28
  Well, if people tell you to take them off, I would just take them off and say, all right, then you help me. Yeah, right. So if I'm using them, if I'm using them to read a menu and an employee comes to me and says, no, no, no smart glasses here, I'm like, okay, you become my reader, right? It's— that's immediately very easy to resolve, at least for me. And in places where it is really like where it could be a problem, like I would not go wear these in a public restroom. That's just rude.
• 24:02
  Or a swimming pool. I know it was another place.
• 24:04
  Or a swimming pool. Just don't— On the beach, you know. Yeah, don't do that. Like, or put them on when you need to for a particular task, when it's very clear.
• 24:15
  You want to look at your neighbor. You know, the good-looking lady.
• 24:19
  Describe her in detail.
• 24:21
  Exactly.
• 24:22
  No, no, but yeah, so like there are places where, yeah, you know, I would, I would advise against using them, although I would think that playing the blind card actually lets you get away with a lot of this. Like if you walk around with a cane and that and those glasses on your head Nobody's gonna tell you to take them off, I don't think.
• 24:45
  No, no.
• 24:46
  Another wow effect is also we experienced that on the holidays at Sicilia, that you can then, you have your AI or you have your Google Mini, you know, on your head. So you can ask, hey, what is the height of the Etna? Or what was the latest happening at the Etna, et cetera? So it can give you all the details right on the top of your head. And it is wireless. So you have it. And another side effect is also the Ray-Ban looks actually quite cool, Stuart. So you are a really cool guy then, wearing that glasses. And also, when you make a picture of this, of something, it can also explain things, you know? So that's quite good.
• 25:35
  I did a video with it recently, 'cause I've done some videos with my phone, my 7-year-old son tells me I'm a terrible camera person, which I am. So I think he's thought the phone— the glasses videos were definitely better because I just have to point my face in the general direction and keep my head steady.
• 25:53
  What I will say also is, of course, on this podcast we talked quite a lot about agentic AI and Codex and Claude code and those kinds of experiences, not necessarily the coding because Why would you use your glasses for coding? But the AI being able to do things for you in digital space, that is definitely getting very close to coming to the glasses. I think Meta has already hinted at their agent Muse coming to the glasses as well. And so, and then I think what you'll get is a much more slick experience because that agent has access to a computer in the cloud. If you have other glasses, you might be able to connect them to other agents as well. And then all of a sudden what you can do is like have it read a paper and put stuff in your agenda for you or have it, you know, look up things that it sees in the world and then send you an email with all the information and a recap. All that sort of stuff, all that functionality that Codex, Claude Code can already do for you. Is something that is very close, I think, to coming to glasses as well.
• 27:06
  Okay, presumably, Mo, when that happens, that will be a subscription product that they will add extra for, I imagine.
• 27:12
  Okay, yeah, yeah, agents are expensive, so yeah, yeah, be prepared to pay for that.
• 27:17
  Another nice thing is also what I recognized is that the recording is quite nice because when you have— it is, um, yeah, very, uh, you know, multi-stereo or how they said it, you can really Here it, I was recording the how the guide was explaining things about the Etna, and we were sitting down and we were touching some rocks, etc. So you really hear then then the guide from left and then Chantal in front and then the kids on the right, etc. And so you could really the the the the the acoustic and yeah the the ruimtelijke weergave. How do you say that? The spatial spatial spatial effect was really cool. And, and also the kids were also not, not fighting, but they would say, well, can I wear it? Because then they could also make pictures of, of nice, uh, buildings and, and of the area, etc. So it was quite, uh, yeah. So I think for sighted people, I can understand also that you can make nice videos, etc.
• 28:21
  Isn't it peculiar though that we all come— we always come back to money? Like, you, yeah, you're gonna There's going to be these advances, but yet blind people are going to have to pay for this.
• 28:31
  It's not blind people, it's everyone.
• 28:33
  No, everyone.
• 28:34
  No, but I mean, we're always coming back to this where you're saying, well, we are going to be disadvantaged because, okay, everybody will be able to subscribe to this, but the people that this information will help most perhaps will be blind people. And if you want this experience, if you want to be able to get further data for what you're, what you're looking at, you're going to have to pay for that.
• 29:00
  We also benefit from it in a way, you know, for, from this mainstream, because due to the fact that this was so main— getting more mainstream, they, they would have never only developed it, this, uh, yeah, for us, you know. Also, they had the quality of the voices, for example, and they, um, uh, are also, since we also all used it in, in the cars, you know, with the navigation apps in the cars, you know. That was really— and at the airports and railway stations, etc. And yeah, but, but you're right, money is, is a, is a thing. That's really, uh, because it is also—
• 29:39
  I will say, I, I will say this, anyone with a impairment, be it visual, be it auditory, be it some other body part that doesn't work right, or a mental issue. Any and everyone with those kinds of issues pays a tax. And it might be unfair, but it is also just the truth. And the question is how far can we get society to help us to avoid some of that tax? Because it is unfair, right? And in some cases you can, and in some cases you cannot. The same goes for, for example, if you want jaws. In some cases you can get it from the, from the state. In some countries you can get it from health insurance, but not everywhere. And that sucks, and I do understand that that sucks. And you know, the people are left without things that can help them a lot. But we can't get around the fact that yes, there is such a thing as an impairment tax. You pay it for sure. You pay it in you know reduced function. You pay it in. having to pay for more expensive things in order to get the same functionality as people without the impairment. And sometimes you pay it in not being able to do things that others can do.
• 31:14
  Or simple things like having to get more taxis. Maybe you need to go somewhere you haven't been before. Somebody— now, some people, I suppose, might sit and plan a journey or go off on their own, but sometimes you don't have the time to do that.
• 31:26
  If we can convince society, for example, the Irish government that this is something so useful to blind people that it, it, you know, they, they should reimburse this, then that's the route I think you should go on. I'm not sure that you should pick Meta as the company to, you know, get that reimbursement money, but it is something that you might want to look at.
• 31:53
  I wonder, I wonder, is there an argument— I remember a long time ago when Aira was sort of starting to to come, you know, I suppose, I'm not in 2017, 2018, but the time when people were talking about Aira and saying maybe governments should look at funding Aira in place of having to fund X amount of hours of home help or, you know, PA hours for some people who might need somebody to come in and help them with certain tasks that Aira might have been able to do, and that there would be a potential saving to the taxpayer. Uh, if you did that. It's something that— but that's— I think there are things that organizations for people with disabilities probably have to do a lot of lobbying for, and it takes a long time to change that.
• 32:38
  It always takes a long time because, you know, it's, it's essentially a tax increase, right? Because we have a massive tax increase on us, and now we have to take— to, to, to convince society to take on some of that burden And to be fair, like, especially in the West, we've gotten quite far. There's quite a lot, at least in the Netherlands and probably also in Ireland, that you can get reimbursed for, but never everything. And that's— yeah, I think, Oren, you hit on that and you hit on that quite often. And it is unfair. I do get that it is unfair. But, you know— It's also like, who, who needs to solve this problem is, I think, the major, the major question.
• 33:26
  Maybe there's a role for, for the for-profit companies in the— okay, the, the— if the government make the funding available or, or see the value of these products and the for-profit companies partner with them maybe to develop some training material so that people don't just get them, that they know how to use And that's conversations that the company that I work for have had before as well, about just how, I suppose, where the responsibilities start and end, because it is a partnership between the government, the provider, and of course the user as well. One last question for you all then. When you talk about listening to music with them or listening to podcasts, do they, can they be picked up by people? Like, for example, if you were sitting on a bus with someone sitting beside you, hear it as well, or is the audio very— does it go like directly into your ears? Just the way that those speakers are positioned on those glasses, it seemed to me like people could probably hear them as well.
• 34:21
  They can hear them, but it just depends on how loud you've got the volume. It really does. I mean, I don't think you can hear a— you wouldn't be able to hear a conversation, you know, if you made a phone call or whatever. I don't think you'd be able to hear.
• 34:36
  Can I make a sneaky comment?
• 34:39
  Oh yes, sneaky comment. Well, this is not funny.
• 34:44
  It is not allowed to have your mobile phone at our table, you know, when we're having dinner.
• 34:51
  Oh, very— yeah.
• 34:52
  I was sometimes wearing my glasses in the beginning, you know, when it was not really that common, that what I was doing with it. And then I was listening to a podcast.
• 35:02
  When you're meant to be chatting at the table?
• 35:05
  Yeah, yeah. And then they didn't hear it. So, Mr. Stewart, yeah.
• 35:10
  But that's good, good. Yeah, it works.
• 35:13
  But, but now they every— but you're sometimes sometimes what, sometimes what, how, yeah, distracted because the podcast is so much interesting, more interesting than—
• 35:22
  yeah, I agree.
• 35:23
  And also men cannot do multitasking, so I was always—
• 35:28
  Jan uses the Meta glasses to break his own rules.
• 35:32
  There you go.
• 35:34
  You do realize that you're the head of the household, right?
• 35:36
  Exactly. So that's now— and Mo, I learned my lesson, so I put them always off. You know, and I'm putting them in the—
• 35:45
  actually, for you guys, then my very final question, because I was curious about—
• 35:50
  This is the final, final question.
• 35:51
  Sorry, this is— I feel like I'm in a meta clinic, but it's very helpful for me. And hopefully for some people listening. But I was looking at this, the little touchpad on the arm, you know, you can change the volume and stuff. But then somebody told me last week that they disabled that on their device. Do you guys use it or not use it? Or do you find it—
• 36:09
  Oh, we use it. Yeah. That's why I like— I prefer to AirPods. Because I don't have to— now I've got an old generation of AirPods, so I would have to use the phone to change the volume and all that.
• 36:19
  Okay.
• 36:20
  So with the, with the Metas, you know, you're changing, you're, you're pausing, one tap to pause the music or the podcast you're listening to, you know, double tap to answer the phone, double tap.
• 36:29
  See, I did not know any of this. I was just doing sliding the volume.
• 36:33
  And you can use also your voice, you know, to lower the volume or next, next song or next podcast or listen to Blind Guy.
• 36:42
  I actually think you guys should produce training material. I'll, I'll buy it.
• 36:47
  Now listen to the podcast then. Hey, by the way, we— do you remember I had a really nice scoop as well? Scoop? It was a, a very stupid experience. I was, uh, um, watching a, a video, um, or, or a series on Videoland here in the Netherlands. That's a commercial, uh, thing. And you know who was on that um, uh, thing, The Addams Family. And you remember that we had a podcast interview with Adam Curry.
• 37:18
  Adam Curry, yeah, yeah.
• 37:19
  And he is now having a video and— or a series, and he is complete. He said goodbye to podcasts and whatever. He has a new, uh, uh, wife, and he is in the Lord. He's in the Lord. He says in every sentence, he's a— praise the Lord, thank you Lord.
• 37:35
  Oh, we are—
• 37:36
  oh my God, he's so— my God, thank you very much.
• 37:39
  And, uh, he was so annoying.
• 37:42
  He spent too long in Texas.
• 37:43
  Yeah, yeah, in Texas. He's doing— oh great, in the Lord. Yeah, amen, praise the Lord.
• 37:48
  You know, it was—
• 37:49
  He's seen the light.
• 37:50
  Listen, he has seen the light. Yeah, Adam Curry.
• 37:53
  Before we go, I'm gonna play— I'm gonna play a thing from Clare McLaughlin because she did leave us a voice note. She was very good. And Clodagh's not here this week for emails, uh, but, uh, Clare McLaughlin did leave us a voice note. So, uh, stay there, we're gonna play it in, uh, now and, uh, just have a listen to what what Clare was saying to us.
• 38:09
  Good morning, Clodagh, and all the Blind Guys Chat team. This is Clare McLaughlin, artist Clare McLaughlin from Bandon, County Cork, and I'm delighted to tell you that we had a wonderful online Seen Unseen visit from the Venice Biennale, so the Irish Pavilion in the Venice Biennale on August 14th. This was exploring Isobel Nolan, who is the Irish representative in the Irish Pavilion at the Venice Biennale and her exhibition called Dream Shook, and we had a wonderful exploration of that exhibition which is really special. People joining online had a tactile pack to reference. The good news is while I was in Venice, I, I had a good look around the Biennale and Bloomberg have assistive technology in that they have verbal description of all of the artists exhibiting in the Biennale. So if you are interested in going, this is available to you. And if you'd like any more information, it's on the Biennale website, or you can contact me and I can send you the link. The other very special news is that I visited the Pavilion of India, who have 5 artists on show, and one particular artwork is interactive in that you can actually sit in it and play it like drums.
• 39:51
  Wow.
• 39:51
  And I'm— we're in negotiations, um, to go and visit that, um, before the end of the Biennale. So the Biennale happens every 2 years, and it is finishing on the 22nd of of November. So I haven't a date yet, but as soon as I do, I will let Clodagh and the team know, and you'll all be welcome to either come in person or online. And if you're joining online, I will be preparing tactile packs, and we're hoping to join with some people living with sight loss in India.
• 40:28
  Right.
• 40:29
  So there are 60 million people living with sight loss in India, so if all of them want a tactile pack, I'd be looking for help. So anyway, I will keep you posted, and in the meantime, if you check out my website artistclaremcLaughlin.org and contact me if you'd like to join the mailing list for any of the upcoming events, I will be doing open house in October with the Irish Architecture Foundation, and I will be posting details of that very soon. So thank you very much for supporting Seen Unseen, and I look forward to welcoming you. Thank you. Bye.
• 41:12
  Bye, Clare. Thanks very much. That's great.
• 41:15
  Yeah, that's fantastic. Yeah, there's, there's so much there, isn't there? And, and it's all— and, you know, someone like Clare who brings that to life for so many people, it's brilliant.
• 41:26
  Yeah.
• 41:26
  Anyway, we've got to go, folks. blindguyschat@gmail.com. Don't forget that email because in the near future, and I mean in the next, possibly the next episode or the episode after that, we are going to talk to some experts. And I do not mean Mr. Mohammed Lashir, even though he is an expert.
• 41:48
  His brother.
• 41:49
  We're going to talk to experts about autonomous driving. Oh, for blind and visually impaired people, and whether or not it's a realistic possibility. So if you have any questions that you would like us to ask our panel of guests, please send us in a voice note or an email to blindguyschat@gmail.com, and we will try our best to get your question answered. Blindguyschat@gmail.com. I say we're going to do it in the next Probably within the next month, but I'm hoping it'll be the next podcast we'll be talking about autonomous driving. So in the meantime, thanks very much for listening, and we will see you in two weeks' time. And thank you all. Bye bye.
• 42:33
  Bye bye.
• 42:34
  Bye.