Latest / Murders to Music: Crime Scene to Music Scene (Streamline Events and Entertainment) / The Interview That Changed Everything: A Detectives Fight for Healing

Transcript

The Interview That Changed Everything: A Detectives Fight for Healing · Murders to Music: Crime Scene to Music Scene (Streamline Events and Entertainment)

• 0:23
  Speaker 1: Welcome back to the Murderous Music Podcast.
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: My name is Aaron, I'm your host and thank you so much for coming back for another week.
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: So we've got a great show for you this week.
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: But before we jump into that, you guys, this podcast is growing all the time and I love getting the emails.
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: I love getting the comments and the reviews.
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: But if you can do your part if you haven't done it yet, scroll to the bottom of my main page on Apple Podcasts.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: Leave a review, whatever you think it's worth.
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: One star, five stars.
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: Leave a comment, leave a review.
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: Just help the algorithms do whatever they do and let's boost us all the way to the top so we can continue growth across this huge world we live in, and right now we have people listening from eight different countries, about 75 to 80 downloads a week.
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: Let's get that number up well over a hundred.
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: So here's what we've got for you this week.
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: I want to talk a little bit about something I've mentioned in a couple of my podcasts, where I'm talking about the interview.
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: I'm talking about the interview, that where I cognitively recognized and acknowledged the fact that I had some injury from my job and that PTSD was not a wild claim by people looking for excuses to get out or people looking to jump on the sympathy bandwagon, and all the negative things and all the connotations that I had with PTSD.
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: I'm going to walk you through that interview.
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: I'm going to walk you through what changed, what happened and how some of these things affected my life and, ultimately, how I got on the other side of that mountain that I was staring up other side of that mountain that I was staring up Before we get there.
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: I want to talk a little bit about a slow fade.
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: There's a song by Casting Crowns, a Christian band, called the Slow Fade, and it talks about how your life is very, very good and everything is going the way that it should, but you let one little piece of Satan in, or you let one little bump in the road jump in your path and you may not notice the effects of that right away.
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: But then another one, and another one and before you know it you get halfway to where you're going to end up and you look back and you don't even recognize the person you were when you started.
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: But you don't stop it there.
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: You continue to allow it to grow.
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: And another one, and another mistake and another indiscretion and another issue that you let into your life and before you know it it's a slow fade to a very, very dark place and when you get to that dark place you may not know or recognize how you got there.
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: You may not recognize all those bumps in the road that changed you from the person you once were, but what you will recognize is the person you've become.
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: It may be a situation where you can't even look back to remember the person that you were before.
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: That was my experience and from all the people that I've talked to and I'm going to start doing some more interviews on this show and I'm talking to those people now and doing some recordings.
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: But, as I do, I find that it's very common that we allow things into our world, little pieces of things into our world, and before you know it it's changed the person that we look at in the mirror.
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: And in my situation, I didn't recognize who I had become because I was so caught up in the moment.
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: Because I was so caught up in the moment you know this interview comes in the beginning of the workers' compensation phase of this To set the stage, I had went to the doctor.
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: The doctor had told me that I had PTSD.
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: The doctor got me in touch with a head doctor head doctor and the head doctor told me that I had PTSD.
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: From there I had been in touch with another doctor.
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: This time it was a workers' compensation doctor.
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: They told me that I had PTSD.
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: At the end of the day, I ended up getting diagnosed seven different times with PTSD from different doctors.
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: You shouldn't have to go through the process seven times for somebody to finally grip on to the fact that you have some kind of mental illness or mental injury.
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: I'll say but you know what?
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: That was okay with me.
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: It was okay because I kept hoping that somebody would say he doesn't have PTSD.
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: You know, and I hated going through and answering the questions and reliving things.
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: I knew that sucked.
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: I didn't know why, I just knew it sucked.
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: And the whole time in my head I knew that I had it.
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: But in well, I guess in my heart I knew that I had it, but in my head I kept hoping that somebody would come up with a different reason for me being where I was in the situation that I was in.
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: So as I talk to my uh counsel in this, because if you go through a workers' compensation case, I highly recommend that you get some kind of legal counsel and somebody that has been there and done that before and knows the ins and outs of it.
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: So I talked to my legal counsel and I was told that I needed to do an interview with the workers' compensation people to talk about who I was, where I came from a lot of the stuff that I've shared on this podcast but they needed to get into the stressors in my life and why I felt that my experiences at work had influenced either my professional or my personal life.
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: And at that point, just like the slow fade, yeah, I had to been involved in some stuff, but I didn't recognize the significance of it and I thought that it's just something you dealt with.
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: You literally go to it, you wash the blood off, you move on to the next call and it's who you are.
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: It's part of the job.
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: Wash the blood off, you move on to the next call and it's who you are.
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: It's part of the job.
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: We don't talk about feelings, we don't talk about emotions.
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: We're numb, we're cold to it and it's just part of the day to day.
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: The stuff that we see in law enforcement firefighters, first responders you in your world.
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: The stuff that we see every single day, or the trauma that we experience, or the domestic violence relationship that we're in, or the shitty the trauma that we experience, or the domestic violence relationship that we're in, or the shitty work environment that we're in with the boss that we can't stand, that completely tears us down and doesn't build us up or value us all of that stuff it's just the day to day.
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: You do it, you move on and that's the way Tommy treats me.
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: You know what, every time I go to work, you know Tommy or Bill or Bob or whoever it might be, that's just the way they treat me and that is life.
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: Every time I go to a call, it's just another call, it's another dead body, it's another kid that's not going home to the parents, and we move on with it.
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: I didn't realize that those things affected me.
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: So when I went into this interview, I was upset, I was angry and frustrated that I had to do it again.
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: I did not want to talk about it.
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: My things that I had experienced had were not affecting me.
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: Uh, ptsd was again a joke, a cop-out, a cry for help for somebody that is looking for an excuse.
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: So I go into this interview and I talk about all kinds of stuff.
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: First, if you've never done one of these interviews, they talk about things like you know.
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: Do you take any prescription drugs?
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: Have you ever taken any?
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: Where were you born and raised?
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: Are you married?
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: Do you have any kids?
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: What's your employment history, current, past?
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: What positions have you held?
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: What is your employment setting like?
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: What are your relationships like?
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: Have you ever been disciplined?
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: What other stressors do you have in your world Other finances, salaries, kids?
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: Have you ever been a victim of anything?
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: How's your relationship with your spouse?
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: How's your relationship with your kids?
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: Any recent deaths in the family?
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: Is there health problems in the family?
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: Is there any mental health treatment in the family?
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: All of these things to the person who's sitting there, unbeknownst to him, having some kind of mental illness or mental injury I keep saying illness, I mean injury.
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: All these feel very attacking and very antagonistic.
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: No, I don't have a death in my family that's causing these problems.
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: No, I don't have any health issues in my family causing these problems.
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: No, there's nobody else with mental health issues in my family.
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: You know this is not hereditary.
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: So on one side of me I am defensive and defending the fact that I don't have these issues in my life, but on the other side, I don't have PTSD either.
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: So this is just the way I am.
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: Get over it.
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: Let's move on with life.
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: That is how I went into this interview.
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: Let's move on with life.
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: That is how I went into this interview.
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: It seems like even at that moment in time, there was internal conflict in my brain, no different than when we put ourselves in situations and I've spoke about this in the past where we are compromising our family.
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: This in the past.
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: Where we are compromising our family.
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: We are doing things in our private, personal world that is compromising the integrity of our family.
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: Or we are doing things at work we are stealing from the evidence room, we are drinking on the job.
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: We are doing things that are compromising our integrity of our job and what people have trusted us to do.
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: We are doing things that are compromising our integrity of our job and what people have trusted us to do.
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: We are having stumbling blocks in the road of life, for whatever reason, yet we continue to do them.
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: So that is where I found myself.
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: I found myself in this situation where I didn't recognize the things in my world.
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: They were affecting me.
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: I'm having this internal debate whether or not I have PTSD or not.
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: I've been diagnosed multiple times by people.
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: I think it's a cop out and an excuse.
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: I think it's a cop-out and an excuse.
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: Now we're going into this interview.
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: I'm defensive because none of these things apply to me.
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: We're wasting everybody's time.
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: Let me get back to work and solve more murders.
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: Then we get to the critical calls in mind, things that may have influenced my life or my decision-making, my professional or personal relationships.
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: So I jotted down a few of them and these things are things that I experienced over the years.
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: And I start talking to the interviewer.
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: It was a lady talking to the interviewer.
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: It was a lady and I remember, you know, telling her um, I, I, you know, I'm going to tell you about the ones that kind of haunt me, the ones that are things that either come up or keep coming up or you know, maybe I didn't know what intrusive thoughts were at the time, but things that you know.
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: If I smell something, then it affects me for a couple of days, but that's just the way life is.
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: So we started down this list, the first thing that I spoke about, and I'll tell you a little bit about each of these.
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: The first thing that I spoke about was John Watson's murder, which was the podcast subject two weeks ago.
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: If you haven't heard it, please go back and listen to it.
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: It's called the Moose, the Mentor and the Morning, and John Watson, in short, was my mentor throughout my teen years through the police department.
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: I met him at eight years old when I went to the police department on a ride along and he checked out books for me.
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: He finally supported me in getting hired at my police department in Alaska.
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: He was my field training officer and ultimately he had to work a shift of mine on Christmas night.
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: He had to work a shift of mine on Christmas night and on that shift in 2002, 2003, I can't remember which year it was right now, uh, as he worked to that shift, he went on a call and when he went on that call he got into a fight and the suspect took his gun from him.
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: Suspect took John's gun and shot John once between the shoulder blades and the second shot was in the back of the head.
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: John was murdered on Christmas night, working my shift because I wanted to go on vacation and he was not going to go home to his family, his wife or his kids.
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: John was an 18-year veteran of my police department.
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: He had 18 months left before retirement and he was not going to go home to his family, his wife or his kids.
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: John was an 18-year veteran of my police department.
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: He had 18 months left before retirement.
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: I had been around him almost from the first day of his career to the last and I held on to that guilt for a long, long time.
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: As you know, I was able to overcome that and realize that this was God's plan, and not mine, for me to be there that night.
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: God had me where he wanted me and God had John where he needed John to be that night.
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: We don't know why these things happen, but they do.
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: But that didn't take away the guilt and the pain that I held onto and that I expressed during this interview, because you have to recognize that I didn't get over and I put that in air quotes the emotional baggage of this call until a couple months ago.
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: So at the time that I had this interview, very early on, within two months of me being pulled out of work, this was still raw.
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: I explained how I felt guilt for John working my shift.
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: John was forced to work my shift and he was supposed to have the night off to spend it with his family on his wife's birthday and on Christmas.
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: I was supposed to be at that call.
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: I was more physically fit, more tactical and things would have been different had I been there.
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: I could have stopped this.
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: I was selfish for going on vacation.
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: I was greedy for forcing him to have the day off so I could have my time, and this is clearly my fault that this occurred.
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: All of that is the weight that started my career.
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: Within the first year, year and a half, of my career, my mentor was murdered as a result of my actions.
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: That is how I felt.
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: But you move on.
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: You plan your funeral within the first year of your career.
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: You plan who your pallbearers are going to be.
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: You plan the music, you plan the statements, the Bible verses, and then you update that for the next 20 years of your career as people come and go from your life, because that's normal.
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: That's just what you do.
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: So I work that and I tell the lady about this and I'm like you know well.
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: The next one I'll talk about is a suspicious circumstance call that I got dispatched to.
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: One day that call came out as and it was a young, eager, high speed cop in a small town that I didn't understand small town policing.
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: Or there was no black and white.
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: I mean sorry, there was no gray in my world.
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: Everything was black and white.
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: And a partner of mine, jeff, and I went to a call.
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: It was summertime, about 90 degrees outside, and we got dispatched to the report of hey, we haven't heard from Johnny in his apartment in a few days and it's starting to smell funny.
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: So understanding that we might be walking into a death scene, maybe homicide, maybe natural, who knows.
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: I get to the call, I'm the first one there and walk around and on the back window, the front door is locked, can't see anything through the front window, the back window at the rear is covered with flies.
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: The smell of decomposition is overwhelming and ultimately we make entry into this and that is the first time that I'd walked in and found a dead body.
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: And this dead body was in a deep stage of decomp and ultimately we had to move that body.
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: And I won't go into too many details.
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: But as a body goes through decomp in a very hot room body turns to liquid and then things dry.
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: And if you can imagine a piece of leather that might be wet and then dried to the extreme, when you move it or you bend it in half, maybe it will crack or break.
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: I had a very horrible experience that day and, as a result, it affected the way that I responded to situations.
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: I felt cowardly, as I would sometimes respond to situations over the next 20 something years of my career, but honestly I did not want to walk into another scene like that.
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: I didn't want to be the one that showed up and found the dead body.
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: Now that doesn't mean that I'm not going to respond effectively to a crime in progress, but the calls that we get that says hey, we haven't heard from Johnny in three days, it's 100 degrees outside and it's starting to stink I didn't respond quickly to those.
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: So, while it wasn't necessarily, I guess it was the dead body and the stage that it was in that affected me, but what affected me psychologically more was the fact I had a fear factor.
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: I had anxiety, anxiety.
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: The root of anxiety is fear and I had an anxiety over responding quickly to these types of calls.
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: And, while it's not much, I felt like a little bit of a coward for not being the first one there, for not being, you know, the first person on these scenes.
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: I would slow roll to them, hoping to God that somebody else would get there before me.
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: In itself is not that big of deal, but it's one little bump in the slow fade when you start calling yourself a coward for these situations.
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: The next call that I spoke about is I responded to a domestic violence.
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: I was working in Alaska to a domestic violence.
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: I was working in Alaska.
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: The call came in that there was a domestic violence fight, that the male suspect had soaked the house in gasoline and was going to set the house on fire.
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: I responded to this call alone because there was nobody else around.
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: When I got to the call, I could got out of my car.
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: I, as I pulled up to the, got to the call, I could got out of my car.
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: I, as I pulled up to the front of the trailer, I could see the guy standing in front of me.
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: I could see a gas can.
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: I could see the trail of gas coming out of the house.
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: I knew that at least his wife was in the house, that she had been beat up and was injured.
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: And as I pull up, he's standing in front of me and he has a cigarette lighter Uh, and I believe he had a cigarette in his hand cigarette lighter and he was basically threatening to torch this house.
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: So I got out of my car.
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: I was a canine officer.
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: Um, I had my dog in the car.
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: I was a canine officer, I had my dog in the car.
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: He was a resource for me.
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: And I started challenging this guy.
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: And by challenging him, I mean I pulled my gun out, I'm threatening to use deadly force, I am yelling at him.
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: You know he's threatening to light this gasoline on fire.
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: I know that if he does, the house is going to go up in flames and his wife is going to burn.
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: If he does, the house is going to go up in flames and his wife is going to burn.
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: And at that point I should have used deadly force.
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: I should have ended this situation.
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: I didn't.
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: I talked him down.
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: I challenged him and talked him down.
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: Ultimately, we got into a fight and he was arrested without being killed.
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: So at the end of the day, he he gets to live another day.
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: But I again hesitate.
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: I didn't take that action.
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: I replayed that in my head many, many times and I could have sent the dog on him, distracted him with the dog, let the dog get on a bite and let the dog chew him to pieces while I went inside and rescued the family, or send the dog on him, get the lighter out of his hands, get him handcuffed, put him away.
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: Put the dog away and then go in and make entry into the house to deal with the family.
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: Instead, I allowed the victim inside to remain in peril and potentially get set on fire and had he lit that, there would have been nothing I could do to save her life.
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: It would have went up in flames.
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: When she came out, she was absolutely soaked in gasoline.
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: The house was soaked in gas.
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: The trailer Trailers go up very quickly anyway and it was a bad scene.
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: So what did I get out of that?
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: I get just another stumbling block of man.
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: I am, I wouldn't say, cowardly, but I didn't immediately act the way that I feel like I should have, based on my training.
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: I should have taken more immediate action.
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: I should have been decisive, made a decision and, hindsight, I should have shot him and ended the immediate threat to his family.
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: In law enforcement we have a hierarchy of life Hostages, innocents, police and suspects.
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: So in that hierarchy of life, hostages are the most important and we risk all the other three.
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: Innocents is the next important and we risk the last two.
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: We, as police officers, are more important than the suspects and the suspects were at the bottom of that tier.
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: We had hostages and innocents held inside that trailer and I did not implement the priorities of life the way that I should have.
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: I resolved it, it was resolved okay, but I judged myself for not taking immediate, decisive action.
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: And that's just one more thing.
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: How does that affect me?
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: That affects me when I go through my life and when I go through the rest of my career.
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: Now I immediately take action and I don't screw around.
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: If somebody needs to be touched, I touch them.
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: If somebody needs to be taken down, I take them down.
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: I had no problem getting into fights because I was trying to make up for that situation that I didn't act upon when I was working in Alaska.
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: I was very, very quick to use force, very, very quick to hurt somebody if they needed to be hurt, and that is the effect that call had on me.
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: I get to Oregon.
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: I get on the child abuse team.
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: I have a small baby at home and I have my first infant death.
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: At infant death I went to the autopsy and I do the autopsy.
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: I feel fine about it.
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: I don't do it, they do it.
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: I'm there witnessing.
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: We have a I don't know, 16 month old baby, uh named Wesley.
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: That uh had died as a SIDS death or a sudden, unreported, sudden incident death syndrome and unexplained death.
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: And um, it ended up being a co-sleeping death is what it ended up being.
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: But I had to go through that autopsy and watch that baby be skinned and opened up and everything else.
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: It didn't affect me, I didn't.
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: It didn't bother me.
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: I was numb and cold to it but it did.
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: Because now every time I see my kid I pictured Wesley in the autopsy suite kid, I pictured Wesley in the autopsy suite.
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: Every child abuse case that I moved on past that I reflected back to my own kids and I would say that it didn't affect me.
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: I would say it doesn't bother me, I get through it, it's not a big deal.
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: But my wife knew different.
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: My people around me knew that it affected me and that I carried that baggage, but I couldn't see it myself.
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: It was again just a slow fade towards what ultimately was going to be the end of my career.
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: I had a young lady come in.
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: I'm hoping that I can get this young lady come in and report that she had been molested and raped by her father over a thousand times over and I don't remember the exact numbers from the time that she was two or three years old to the time that she was 18.
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: Her father took her on as his girlfriend and she had held on to this and delayed report.
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: And there was a reason why she came into report and I took that call.
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: Not much shocked my conscience except this story and I knew this one affected me.
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: Dad ultimately got her pregnant, went through the abortion process with her.
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: I heard this story.
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: I ended up doing the investigation.
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: We did a pretext phone call to dad where she spoke to dad about the incidents over the years.
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: Ultimately dad was part of a motorcycle club or gang.
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: We ultimately arrested him.
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: I went and did an interview, got a full confession.
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: After several hours of interviewing it turns out that she was not the only victim and dad went away to prison for a long, long time.
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: I knew this one affected me long-term because I took it home with me and I cried and I cried and I cried going to sleep.
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: And then, a year later, whenever it was uh father was sentenced and the victim in court thanked me for what I did and the support that I had been for her, and I cried and I cried and I cried again and I knew that at this point, um, I was starting to take some of these home and it was starting to fill up some space inside my head.
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: I got shot at in Rockwood Uh were working an armed robbery situation.
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: I got shot at.
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: The bullet hit a foot above my head on the wall apartment wall that I was standing in front of.
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: Again doesn't affect me, it's just another day.
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: You just move on.
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: But somewhere inside you realize that you're not invincible and that your one partner's already died and what's going to save you from dying?
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: I spoke about a fight that I got in, arresting a guy on a warrant.
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: My partner and I Adam and I arrested a guy.
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: During the arrest he starts grabbing my gun.
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: We're on the ground and I'm yelling.
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: He's grabbing my gun.
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: He's grabbing my gun.
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: He's trying to get out of the holster.
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: There's only one reason he's trying to get that gun out of my holster and that's so he can kill me like John Watson was murdered, and I'll be damned if I'm going to get killed like John did.
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: I couldn't get to my gun to kill him.
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: I couldn't get to my backup gun to kill him.
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: I couldn't get to my knife to cut his throat.
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: We were locked up too tight and my number one goal was to keep my gun in my holster.
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: I remember that we put out on the radio that he's going for my gun.
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: One of my sergeants showed up and we ended the fight and the suspect got taken into custody alive Again.
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: It didn't affect me, it's just another day, but somewhere inside it's taking up space.
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: It's filling up that box.
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: By this time, in the interview with this lady for workers' comp, I'm on the cusp of uh.
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: I'm emotional and it's starting to re.
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: I'm starting to realize that all of these little, tiny pieces, all these little things and I've only spoke about a couple of them out of a 21 year career these little things are starting to add up and it affects the way that I am with my friends, it affects the way that I am with my family.
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: It affects the way that I respond to calls.
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: It affects the way that I am with my friends.
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: It affects the way that I am with my family.
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: It affects the way that I respond to calls.
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: It affects the way that I think I'm a coward.
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: It affects the way that I treat people when it's ready to go physical and hands-on with them.
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: It affects the way that I look at everybody in the street when I think every dad's a pedophile and I question everybody.
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: It affects the way that I'm constantly looking over my shoulder for another bullet hit the wall over my head and the way that I respond on the street.
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: All of these things compound and it's a slow fade towards ultimate disaster of my career.
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: Then the one that hit me is the 12-year-old suicide that I've also done a show on the worst call on my career and by the time I get there I can't even talk in this interview because I'm bawling so much and I'm so emotional and I realized that I'm fucked up because of the what the career has done to me and I get through that.
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: I explained the details.
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: I get through the Hester homicide where if I cut my head, I smell blood and I have intrusive thoughts for days I can't sleep.
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: And then, finally, I talk about an officer-involved shooting we had, where a dad set his two little girls on fire, killed them in the back of a truck, set them on fire, got into a shootout with the police and the car went up in flames.
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: Set them on fire, got into a shootout with the police and the car went up in flames.
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: The little girls were pulled out of the car and ultimately we had to walk around them for 18 hours on this crime scene and the little girls were my boys' ages and every time I smell smoke I have intrusive thoughts about those scenes.
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: This is only a few things.
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: I can no longer continue this interview, but it was this interview where I cognitively accepted the fact that PTS is real.
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: And notice, I didn't say PTSD, it's not a disorder.
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: Pts is something that I can get over.
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: You can get over, we can work through it.
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: It may always affect us, we may always have the effects there and the triggers might be right under the surface, but if you are willing to work on it, you can definitely improve your life.
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: I don't know what the medical definition of a disorder is, but I can tell you that PTS is something that you can work through if you're willing to put the work in.
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: We were able to get to this point in the interview and I couldn't talk anymore.
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: I believe the interviewer was crying.
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: It was a very emotional call and that is where I crested the mountain that I was staring up and I realized that if I was going to move beyond this, I needed help.
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: And that is when therapy became a encouraged word, a word that I didn't run from, I wasn't scared of and I wasn't embarrassed.
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: I was scared to talk about any of this stuff.
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: The person that you're hearing now and is sitting before you, if you're watching this and is this open, this is not the person that I was at the day that I had this interview.
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: I didn't cry, I wasn't emotional, I just got through life.
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: But it's because of the therapy and the way that I've been able to change my relationship, my trauma relationship, with these situations.
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: It has made me more vulnerable, it's made me open up and it's made me hopefully be able to share these stories to help somebody else.
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: There is nobody else in this world that has experienced every one of these calls that I've spoken about, except me.
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: That makes me unique, the weights that God has put into my backpack, that I've had to carry around for years.
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: The emotional baggage is specific to me.
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: One of the things that I had to consider was how come all my partners are still at work, working and I'm the weak one.
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: I am the insecure, weak, injured victim that's at home, that's not strong enough to do it anymore.
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: How come they can keep doing it?
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: They've seen stuff, they've been involved in stuff we all have.
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: How come they can still work but I can't?
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: And I think the reason for that is because my backpack was full, it was overflowing and it was time for me to be done and it took me a while to understand that that's okay.
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: This is when the loss of identity came.
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: This is when I stopped questioning what my purpose was and I kind of opened the door and the space for God to show me what my purpose was.
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: I was able to go out and do some therapy, specific for first responders.
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: One's called First Responder Resiliency.
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: It's in Northern California that takes a scientific approach to PTSD.
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: They look at the physiological symptoms of on-the-job stress and trauma psychological, medical and then they show you modalities and they explain it all.
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: What is the brain doing under trauma.
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: What nervous system are you operating out of?
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: How do you dissolve that and work out of the other nervous system, sympathetic versus parasympathetic?
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: What does yoga do?
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: We all did yoga.
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: I'm not a yoga guy Look at me but I did yoga and it was freaking amazing.
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: What is meditation?
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: They bring the sound bowl in.
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: At first I think this is corny Thing and there's some guy rubbing this bowl.
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: It's making a loud noise.
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: We got our eyes closed by the end of the week.
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: I couldn't wait to do more meditation because it gives you the scientific background, not the hippity, didippity bullshit, but the science behind why these things work, why it calms you down.
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: I held my breath for two and a half minutes in this.
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: I think it's called Wim Hof breathing or something.
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: It's some guy in breathing technique.
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: Two and a half minutes I held my breath that's a long, freaking time and I didn't die.
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: I did go somewhere because I woke up and the guy was like rubbing my breath.
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: That's a long, freaking time and I didn't die.
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: I did go somewhere because I woke up and the guy was like rubbing my chest, but anyway, I don't, and I think it was totally heterosexual.
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: He was just he's like you went somewhere, bro, your eyes were rolled back.
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: Anyway, I didn't breathe for two and a half minutes.
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: So we do that kind of stuff.
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: We do coloring, we do games.
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: There was no alcohol.
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: You don't need alcohol to have fun and decompress, which is weird because a lot of us always used it.
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: So I did that one.
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: That was great.
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: It's a week long.
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: And then I went to one called um Oak Oak, something, oak tree, oak, mighty Oaks, mighty Oaks.
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: Mighty Oaks is a faith-based first responder military type of retreat where you go in and you talk about some science, but you also talk about biblical foundations, biblical principles as to why you experienced what you experienced as our roles as protectors and military and law enforcement and fire and paramedics.
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: God has ordained us to do these things to keep people safe, and it talks about the biblical principles behind the stuff that we are, maybe the negative side effects, our financial, our alcohol affairs, gambling, the vices that we try to cover up and make ourselves happy again.
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: It talks about that because it's all in the Bible, but then it turns and it's not excuses, but it shows us the way to God through the things that we've experienced.
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: We break up into small groups, we go out.
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: We share very intimately.
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: It's a very intimate week, it's a very faith-based week and ultimately we make lifelong cornermen or lifelong friends, in that I just reached out to mine a week ago because I've been struggling and I'm like guys, I need prayer and I got immediate responses from them.
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: So if anybody, if any of you corner men are listening to this, thank you so much.
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: You guys helped, and those in the corner men group the other guy having issues right now praying for you.
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: Brother, we love you, you can get through this.
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: So went out and did that.
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: And then you guys heard about my other therapy stuff.
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: All of this is not about me, but this is more about you.
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: All of this stuff is available to you as well.
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: It's PTS, not PTSD.
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: You can get through it.
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: It's a slow fade to the person you were, to the person you've become.
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: You can always go back the other direction.
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: It's just as slow, but you can reveal the person that you used to be.
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: Within one year of me being out of law enforcement and within one year of this interview, I took a year off to get my head straight.
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: I was on medical leave and all of a sudden I started to decompress.
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: I no longer have my back against a wall, I no longer carried a gun.
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: I no longer thought the world was out to get me.
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: I started talking to strangers and buying strangers a beer and just chitting and chatting with them.
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: My wife told me that she didn't even recognize the person that I was and she was.
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: She did recognize me and it's the person she married 25 years earlier, the person who was nice and wasn't living under a shield of armor all the time.
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: My friends told me my smile was the first time they've ever seen a genuine smile.
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: I was at a really, really good place and I was there for a long time.
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: Then I got into this last trial and now I'm kind of climbing myself back out of it.
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: I'll get there again, but my point is slow, fade one direction.
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: You can go back the other way.
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: Don't think it's ever too late.
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: Don't ever end up with a gun in your mouth, like I did.
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: Don't end up throwing your hands up, acquiesce into the world and say you know what?
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: Fuck it, uh, life's not worth it anymore.
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: There's always a way out.
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: Seek help, get help.
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: You guys, thank you so much.
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: I really appreciate you listening.
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: I thought it was very important for me to be able to talk about this specific interview because I've referenced it a bunch, but it helped me cognitively move past that stumbling block of a PTSD diagnosis.
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: Also, after this, I had been having some medical issues prior to this where I was having TIA symptoms or stroke symptoms, complete paralysis of the right side.
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: After this interview I had no more and I do believe that they call it seizures.
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: I believe that I had so much internal stress that the stress of accepting PTSD knowing I had it but not wanting to have it, knowing my career was over but not wanting to be over all of that stress caused these stroke-like symptoms.
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: Once I cognitively accepted where I was, those went away.
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: So again, thank you so much for coming out for another episode of the Murder Music Podcast.
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: Listen into my story.
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: Hopefully it helps you, hopefully there is a parallel there that you guys can wrap your mind around and it can help point people in the right direction.
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: Purpose of the podcast educational, entertaining.
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: Provide value.
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: So I just want to be sure that we can provide value and have some education components in this.
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: Thank you guys so much.
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: I can't wait until the next episode.
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: You guys, I got some really good interviews coming up.
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: I got interviews with people from my field, from other fields.
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: Please check back, stick around like it.
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: Tell your friends, download the shit out of this podcast and I can't wait to see you on the next one.
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: Take care, guys.