Latest / Making The Impact - A Dance Competition Podcast / Battling Body Image Issues in the Dance World

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Battling Body Image Issues in the Dance World · Making The Impact - A Dance Competition Podcast

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: Have you ever wondered what goes on behind the table at a dance competition?
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly what are the judges looking for anyway?
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_01: This is Making the Impact, a dance competition podcast.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: Each week we'll cover a different topic related to the world of competitive dance from the perspective of the judges behind the table.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: Dancers spend a ton of time scrutinizing their bodies, from rehearsing in front of the mirror day in and day out to analyzing their minds and anarchics.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: In an industry that focuses on aesthetics, dancers can be fun to having a negative body image, sometimes without even realizing it.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: Today on Making the Impact, we're joined by Katrina Cote and Amanda Lecount, two body positive dancers and educators to discuss ways to combat a negative body image and encourage size inclusivity in dance.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_03: Hey y'all, welcome to this week's episode of Making the Impact.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_03: I'm your host, Courtney, and I'm here with my co-host, Leslie Miller.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: Hey Courtney, can you believe we are already at episode 144?
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_03: No, I can't, and it's May.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_03: I cannot believe the dance season is practically over.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just happy that it's warmer outside, so that way I can load in and load out without a coat.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it feels so good to have some warm weather happening over here in New York City finally.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_03: And it's been such a great dance season.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_03: My season is kind of uh over, at least for me, traveling and going out into the competition world.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_03: But I'm still hard at work casting for last-minute replacements and judges at IDA, and we're still doing some online critiques over here, too.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yep, we're still busy in May and just have a few more episodes before we wrap up season four.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god, it's so sad.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want it to be over yet.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: I never want it to be over, but you know what?
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna take our little summer hiatus and then we'll be right back at it before you know it.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, we will.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_03: So everyone listening, don't worry.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_03: We will maybe have a few summer episodes, and uh, we will still continue to do our QA with Courtney lives for our Platinum Premium subscribers.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_03: So if you're not a Platinum Premium member and you still want content over the summer hiatus months while we're taking our nice summer break, then be sure to sign up for Platinum Premium now so you don't miss out.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: And before we jump into our really amazing episode today with some really amazing guests, we have a few things to tell you about, like our sponsor, Apollo Shocks.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: We need to talk about something serious.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: Dancer injury rates are staggering.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: Dancers have twice the injury rate from the knee down as football players.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: Football players! The majority of injuries are due to overuse and inflammation.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: If you spent as many years as I did as a dancer, I'm sure you know it can produce long-term chronic aches, pains, and injuries.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: If only there was a tool for dancers to prevent injuries and help you continue to do what you love with less pain.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'm here to tell you there is.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: Apollo performance is made by dancers, backed by science, and recently got a deal on Shark Tank.
• 2:57
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• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: There's really no substitute for Apollo Shocks.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: They have thousands of testimonials from dancers on how they help to dance longer and stronger.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: Plus, satisfaction is guaranteed.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: I know that I wear mine all the time when loading in and loading out for my dance competition that I run saves my feet every weekend.
• 3:20
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• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: Dance longer, dance stronger with Apollo Performance.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_03: And we're excited to share our latest Making the Impact Award winners, who are receiving these awards at IDA affiliated competition events throughout the 2023 season.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_03: If you attend an IDA affiliated competition, then you might be the lucky making the impact winner, where all of your judges, if they're IDA affiliated judges, they will select one routine from the entire weekend that they felt made an impact on them.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_03: Whether it was through performance, technique, execution, choreography, it's that one dance they cannot stop thinking about by the end of the weekend.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_03: And we have a handful of recent winners that we want to give a shout out live on the podcast.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_03: First up from Elevation on Tour in McKinley, Texas, congrats to Allie Cottham for her solo, I Will Wait, from Elevate Dance Center in McKinney, Texas.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: From Legend Dance Competition in Newark, New Jersey.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: Congrats to Fabulous Feet Dance Arts from Metechan, New Jersey for their small group Turned to Stone.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_03: From Spirited Dance Awards event in Woonsucket, Rhode Island.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_03: Congrats to Isabel Solarzano for her solo from Onstage Dance Studio in Hyde Park, Massachusetts.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: From Axis Dance Competitions event in Billings, Montana, congratulations to Montana Elite from Great Falls, Montana for their small group Remember.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_03: From Greater Brocktance Teachers Association's events in Easton, Massachusetts, congrats to Kaleidoscope of Dance and Gymnastics from Wareham, Massachusetts, for their small group called Fever.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_03: If you are a lucky winner of a Making the Impact Award at a future idea affiliated competition, be sure to register your awards so you can hear a live studio shout-out on a future podcast episode.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_03: All right, listeners, it's time to jump into this important chat today that we are having on Making the Impact.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_03: This is all about body image in the dance world.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_03: I'm sure a lot of us have experienced this at a point in time in our careers, during our training, or even as a professional.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_03: And we are going to dive deep into this chat with two fantastic guests who are joining us.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_03: The first guest that I'm excited to welcome is new to the podcast, and she is on a mission to bring better body image to dancers, teachers, and dance culture.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_03: She's also the creator of the Body Kind Dance Club.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_03: I'm excited to welcome Katrina Kohey to the podcast.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome, Katrina.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_03: Hello, thank you.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: I'm excited to be here.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, we are so excited to have you here.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_03: And I know, and Leslie, I think you have the Instagram post pulled up.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_03: Possibly.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_03: I do, I do.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, Courtney and I both saw this post, and we were like, I think she's the one.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think she'll be perfect for our episode, and it was perfect timing.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_03: Do you want to read what the post says?
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: So this is a post from Katrina's Instagram account uh at Diff Drum Dance.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: And we saw it a few weeks ago, and it was just perfect timing.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: And it says, it's just text on a white background, and it says, Your dance teacher was wrong.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: Your body was never the problem.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_03: Ooh, preach it, preach it.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_03: And like I said, the timing couldn't have been more perfect because we were actually casting for this episode right at that time.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, ooh, let me reach out to her and get her on.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_03: Perfect.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_03: Sign from the universe.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: Definitely.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_03: Definitely.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_03: So thank you so much for all of the advocating that you're doing, Katrina, for our dance world.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_03: And I'd love to hear a little bit more about you, what your dance background's like, where you're currently based, and anything else you'd like to share.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I am from Northern California originally.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, right now I am in upstate New York.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: I've been here for about the past seven years or so.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_00: But growing up, I had, you know, the very kind of traditional, so to speak, uh ballet upbringing.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: I did the Royal Academy of Dance exams when I was younger, and I did those all the way up through like their advanced two exam.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: So I didn't do a whole lot of competition or anything as, you know, a young dancer, but it was very focused on Royal Academy of Dance and all those exams and everything.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: And then after that, I did the college route with dance, really quickly figured out that wasn't my scene.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I danced for about four or five years with um San Francisco Conservatory of Dance, which is really when it started to like open my mind towards, you know, seeing dance represented on different bodies, different abilities.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and as somebody who, you know, was a bunhead for the first part of her dance life, that was really eye-opening for me.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: I'd never seen that before.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I started to get into more teaching at that time.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: I was also dancing professionally with a flamenco company.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: I danced as a professional flamenco dancer, which is very like out of the box for a bunhead.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: I think that um catches everybody by surprise.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: So uh that's always that's a little fun tidbit about my background in history.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: And at that same time, I was starting to teach more and I started to see, you know, the dancers that I was working with coming up against so many of the things that I experienced as a young dancer, which I thought was just the way it was, you know.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: And then there was something about seeing it on other students and students that I was responsible for that really made me stop and question and say, no, we need better tools and you know, we need to change the narrative.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: So that's kind of what I've been on a mission to do since then.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: So with different drummer dance, that's the studio that I own here in upstate New York.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's also an online education platform for dancers and teachers.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I offer all sorts of resources and um sassy Instagram posts telling you that your dance teacher was wrong, you know, and hopefully trying to spread the word and give people actionable resources as well for how to start having conversations with dancers, how to change the narrative, you know, how to put into practice all of these things that might be kind of trendy right now, but how to actually, you know, implement them in your dance classrooms and how to actually live those practices and beliefs so that we are starting to raise a new generation of dancers, you know, with body image resilience and with tools in their toolbox so that they they know how to navigate that this this part of the dance world because you know it is body image does affect dancers.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: We all have body image.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna run across these problems.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: But now hopefully we will start to have more tools and better ways to deal with it.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: And that was probably a very long-winded answer to your question.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_03: It's awesome.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_03: And I am so like the more you the more you talk, the more I'm like, yes, I am so excited to dive into this chat with you because that's everything our dance world needs right now.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_03: So thank you so much for sharing, and we're excited to have you here.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, absolutely.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_03: All right, and our next special guest is someone I'm meeting for the very first time now, and I'm so excited that she said yes to join us on this chat because I've been following her on Instagram for a very long time.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_03: She is a professional dancer and choreographer and model in Los Angeles, pursuing her dreams as a professional dancer.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_03: And you may know her as someone who started the breaking the stereotype hashtag, as she believes that everybody is a dancer's body and encourages everyone to follow their dreams.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_03: I'm so excited to welcome Amanda LeCount to the podcast.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome, Amanda.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_02: Hi, thank you so much.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_02: What an introduction.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_03: I know, and you're gonna tell us so much more about you, and I can't wait to learn more about you.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_03: But I knew we needed to have you on this chat.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, you are such an inspiration to so many dancers, and you really are living your dream and fulfilling your dream as a professional dancer in Los Angeles.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_03: And uh I love this uh breaking the stereotype hashtag that you started and this movement that you started.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_03: So tell us a little bit more about your dance journey and what took you to LA and maybe just a little intro into the breaking the stereotype.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_02: I love to talk, so I'm gonna try to keep it short together.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_02: But I started dancing when I was two in Colorado, where I'm from.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_02: And I fell in love with it right away.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_02: I knew it was something I'd want to do the rest of my life.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_02: And as I got older, around eight or nine, I started to realize that people were just treating me a different way than other people that had a different body type.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I would get people whispering about me in class or like just dirty looks from people, like, why is she here?
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_02: Because I guess it wasn't normal for someone with my body type to dance.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_02: And my first experience uh with someone telling me to my face that my body was an issue was when I was around 11 or 12, I believe, and I had a studio director of the studio I went to kick me off the competition team and I couldn't dance at the studio anymore because my body type didn't fit his vision, is what he said.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_02: So that was very eye-opening to me because I was so confused.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_02: Like I just loved dance.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_02: I wanted to train and dance with my friends, and because I didn't look the way he wanted, I wasn't allowed to do that anymore.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_02: And so that was really a pivotal moment in my life and also in my life as a dancer specifically.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it would have been really easy then to kind of take that to heart and and stop and quit dancing.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_02: And I was really lucky that I had a mom that was so supportive and kind of had to give me the tough love talk of like, you know, this happened and it sucks.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_02: And you can feel a certain way about it, of course, and feel those emotions, but also are you gonna stop just because one person doesn't like you or doesn't think you should be doing something?
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you're gonna give away or like give up on your dreams because one person.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_02: And so she really kind of gave me the kick in the butt to be like, no, you're not stopping.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, you're gonna keep going.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_02: And that's what I did.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_02: I I moved on, I kept training.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_02: And then a few years later, I moved to Los Angeles, California to pursue my dreams of being a dancer.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_02: And um, there were definitely some challenges moving to LA.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_02: I think LA is very, um, especially when I moved out, it's getting better, but it's very stuck on a certain body image, specifically in the entertainment industry in general, not only dance, but specifically dance.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I had a lot of people tell me, you know, you're not gonna make it.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_02: Why are you here?
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_02: No one's gonna book you.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_02: You don't have the right look, do this, this, this, go on a diet, lose weight first.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I just knew that dance is what I was meant to do.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_02: So I really just had to like believe in myself and be like, okay, you know, these people are doubting you, but that should just give you more motivation to prove them wrong.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_02: And so I always tried to use it as like fuel for the fire, you know?
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_02: And then I created breaking the stereotype when I was, I think, 16.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_02: So I've had it for a pretty long time.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I just wanted something that summarized what I wanted to achieve in my career and just my life and what I'm all about, which is breaking the stereotype that dancers have to look a certain way.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_02: And of course, I made it for dance, but I feel like it can also be translated to other careers.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_02: Like there's stereotypes basically in every occupation and in every aspect of life.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_02: There's certain stereotypes that we're pressured to fit into.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think a lot of people can relate to it and and feel seen by it.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_02: And it's all about just doing what you want and being true to yourself no matter what people might think about it.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_02: Hopefully that was short and concise.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: That was perfect.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and I mean, I just I'm super excited to meet both of you as well.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: And just the, you know, this is such a fraught or it can be such a fraught conversation because it's the, you know, there's a lot of emotions involved, and we are in, you know, we're in a very niche world.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the dance world is very niche, competitive dance is even more niche.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: But when you really look at this whole, you know, picture of body image, that that's a Western culture problem.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's not even we could get that this topic could be huge because it is huge, but like, you know, so there we're uh we're all up against a whole lot more than just, you know, a dance director, a dance company, or Hollywood or, you know, all of that.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's gonna be really cool to talk to both of you about, you know, our little world and how we can do the, do what we can as educators and people in the business that people look up to to break the stereotype and to make it make it okay to have these conversations.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, thank you both again for being here today.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: So we know a little bit about how both of you grew up training, um, very different training backgrounds, I think, which is really cool to hear.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: But I am curious, uh, Katrina, so you were at a ballet studio.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: What are your memories of how your teachers and your directors at you at a younger age, how did they even handle conversations about body image?
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: Did they talk about it at all?
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: Were you even, did anybody say anything ever?
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: Or were you just sort of like, I'm in class and I'm doing my thing?
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was a non-conversation, right?
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's, and I think, I think this happens for like we're saying, it happens specifically in dance, but other places as well, is that we all know about it, we all feel it, we all hear the whispers or like get the looks, like Amanda was saying, but there's no conversation.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: There's unless it's like, you know, the side whispers or the oh my gosh, her did you see her or whatever?
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it was never addressed by any of my teachers.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I had fantastic teachers, you know.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: I wanna, I I think it's important too to to call out that, you know, I I had a pretty good situation growing up in my studio.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like my my teachers for the most part were pretty progressive and they were fairly positive, but they just didn't have the tools to talk about these things because it's it wasn't talked about, it wasn't discussed.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: It was just this non-conversation with this heap of expectations that you look a certain way, that you, you know, if you don't look a certain way, that you start to take steps to look that certain way.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: It was just a given.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: It was just uh, you know, it was it's so weird.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: You there's no conversation or like um, you know, initiation into those expectations.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: You just kind of absorb them the moment that you walk into a dance studio or that you're there for classes week by week, you know.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: It just is one of those things that kind of attaches itself to you.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um so there, yeah, for me, there were really no, there were no conversations about it ever through my younger training, through college, and even when I was going through conservatory training and as a professional dancer, never, never a conversation.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: There might have been an occasional like summer dance workshop or intensive that included a workshop on nutrition, you know, which is a valid and important part of dance training for sure, but it didn't touch at all on the body image portion of you know, of having a body and having a body in dance.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, really something that was missing.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: Amanda, what about you?
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I feel like growing up, there was almost no conversation about body image.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like people almost saw it as like a taboo topic, and it was like, don't talk about it, but like it's obviously there, and kind of like Katrina said, it's like we all know it's there, but people are just scared to talk about it for some reason.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_02: And I think if anything, if there was ever talk about body image, it was always like encouraging us to look a certain way, like, okay, guys, like we're wearing a two-piece, so make sure that you do your abs tonight, like things like that, or like just weird comments about body image.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I know some studios, I never went to a studio like this, but some studios like weigh their dancers, and it's like if you're over a certain amount, it's like, oh, well, you gotta get down two pounds, and it's just it's crazy.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_02: It's crazy.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_02: But I definitely didn't grow up going to studios that talked about positive body image, which that kind of sucks.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_02: But I think luckily it is getting better, and I feel like more and more people are becoming aware of the body image issue and that it should be talked about.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, my studios didn't really touch on it, and if they did, it was always kind of like an encouragement to look a certain way and not love your body way at all.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_03: I definitely I think that that sounds probably pretty accurate with many of the studios across the industry, whether it was 20, 30, 40 years ago, or even current day.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_03: Honestly, I think that's probably their their approach as well, because you're gonna have all different types of dancers walk into your studio.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_03: And there's gonna be a wide variety of ranges of levels of ability of body types.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_03: And it's a difficult conversation, I think, for studios to try to navigate and have with dancers, you know, to make sure that they feel welcomed and accepted in that space as a safe space as a studio.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_03: I'm sure it's hard to navigate.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_03: And I personally can't really remember anything off the top of my head on my end, with my studio in particular, but we had all different types of bodies at our studio.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm sure that they experienced their uh experience at my studio very differently than I might may have.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_03: And that's, you know, unfortunate for a lot of dancers who have to navigate that, but it's definitely still existing in our industry for sure.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_03: Whether we're in competitive studio training, recreational studio training, and even the whole weigh-in talk.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I know that like I've experienced that as a professional dancer, not in my studio, but as a professional dancer, my first professional job that I did with Leslie.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_03: We had a weigh-in.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_03: That was the first thing, one of the first things we did before costume fitting.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, make sure you go stand on the scale.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_03: Or like, I was like, what?
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_03: I had no idea that was something that was normal for the for a professional industry, you know?
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, that's my first job.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like, is this what I need to expect for every job that I do?
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_03: Is that I have to maintain a weight?
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_03: Like, what's going on here?
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of bizarre.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's it's interesting that, you know, I I don't remember anything at my studio, either like positive or negative.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: There was never like a big conversation, you know.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: But it, but you know, when I went to college was really the first time that I started hearing en masse, you need to lose weight, you need to lose weight, you're bulky, you're too bulky, your thighs are too big, your boobs are too big.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, just run the gamut of everything, you know.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: And similarly, Amanda, I was told in college, my sophomore year, when when you have to sort of like choose, do I continue with this major or do I not?
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: I was told by a faculty member, you will never dance if you look like that.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: And like, that's a really hard thing to hear.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I can't imagine hearing something like that at a younger age.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like I was I was in college, and so I knew I was like, I at least.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: least have, you know, I at least have the skills to have gotten me this far.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: So like I was confident in the fact that like I knew I could do it.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: But like 13, 12, 11, like you know, thank God your mom was so positive and was was so like supportive and and believed in you and believed that you believed in you enough to get over that.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: Because like that's that statement still haunts me to this day.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I had a professional career and got paid and like did my thing.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I still think of that teacher.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like what what did she what did she mean by that?
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: Because I did go work and you did go work.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: And you're like why?
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: It kills me.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's so unfortunate.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_03: That's really how our and like granted, I mean that was 20 years ago at this point.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_03: A lot of progress has been made in schools, in in certain professions.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_03: There has been a lot of progress made but we can still do better, I think.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_03: And that's why we're here having this conversation today.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_03: So do you you and you kind of hinted at this Amanda that hearing those words fueled you to kind of prove wrong.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_03: You were like oh absolutely not no one is going to tell me that I this is going to get in my way.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna show them I'm sure that you're looking back and thinking of that one in particular person like look who's laughing now.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely I actually have a funny story.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_02: I'll try to keep it short but this studio director you know Dance Spirit magazine was a magazine and still is like a pretty iconic dance magazine that I feel like every studio has you know you're always like oh who's on the cover this week like or this month like who is it gonna be and we all read it and I remember when I went to this studio I would always see the Dance Spirit magazines and not to toot my own horn but in 2018 I got to be a cover of Dance Spirit magazine.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah and it was like breaking the stereotype a Mandel account confronts you know commercial dances size issue or something.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yep and all I could think about as soon as I saw it and I celebrated I was like I know that this person saw this magazine come into their studio and opened it and was like oh my god I love it.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_02: What?
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_02: And I was I'm sure he probably like threw it out or like hit up right he didn't like put them on the table but like I immediately thought about oh I would love to see his reaction when he opened that so it definitely feels nice to you know get the last laugh and to and approve them wrong and yeah I think I just knew that I I love dance and I was passionate about it and I wasn't going to take no as an answer basically that's so great.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_02: Wow yeah but you know what that teacher is probably like all of a sudden now that you are quote unquote dance famous they probab who knows they could have been like look this was my student everybody aren't you know trying to take the fame like oh absolutely not excuse me no if I ever heard that he was doing that because I still have some friends that go to that studio or parents of kids that go to that studio and if they were to ever tell me that he started doing that I would have to go back to Colorado and have a talk because you are not going to give credit for my success when you kicked me out of your studio.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: That's it you tell them wow well and it's you know it's great to hear I rem I remember that cover that you know big big leaders in the dance industry like Dance Spirit magazine.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_01: I mean that's that's been around since they've had a dance magazine and like it's people still look to that as a you know a leader in the industry and that they're covering this kind of story and this kind of you know messaging to dancers because you know we all know and I Katrina I'd love to hear from you a little bit you know the the ballet body quote unquote comes from the Balanchine dancers and I was actually reading up on it today and not only did Balanchine want long legs and long limbs and thin, thin, thin, but he wanted small heads like that really I was like oh okay sir like it it really was all just one you just small, small small everything had to be small including your head.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: But you know that stereotype has really has shifted in the ballet world.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: And Katrina can you speak a little bit to anything you've noticed over the years in the ballet world that's changed for the better in companies across this you know the country or anything like that.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah it it's super encouraging to see the progress that has been made.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I agree with you.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's still a long way to go.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: But I think it's great that we're starting to see you know big name dance companies embrace you know dancers of different size, dancers of different abilities, dancers from you know of all colors and nationalities and races.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: Pacific Northwest ballet is actually one of my favorite companies to follow right now because I feel like they're doing such exciting things and such inclusive things that it just makes me want to watch everything they do and support everything that they do.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah it's it's great to see that happening.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: At the same time, you know there's always a there's always a flip side of the coin and I feel like you know there are there are still definitely companies that are struggling to see the value of it.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the things that makes me extra frustrated with that is when it feels a little like it's just a trend like I'm gonna I'm gonna jump on this trend because you know these are these are words that are floating around right now and these are hashtags that are popular and this is getting a lot of attention.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: So you know that starts to feel like tokenism which I'm I'm not a fan of at all.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's you know it's one thing to like post a picture on your Instagram feed of you know a dancer that might have a different body or a different look from your normal core members or company members.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's another thing to hire those people it's another thing to promote those people.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where I feel like the rubber isn't quite hitting meeting the road yet.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm hoping that you know the intention starts to catch up with the action.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: It also frustrates me you know that some of the leaders beyond just the choreographers or the directors or the teachers, you know, there was I recently read an article in the New York Times about the balancing body actually and it was trying to make a comparison between the balancing body or ballerinas in general and feminism and how they could go together.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like it was such a missed opportunity.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: I there were some good points and interesting points made in the article but to me it really it lacked that substance and it lacked that meaning of the intention and the action coming together to to find new ways that we can improve.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: So it's discouraging a little bit to see you know that side of the dance world not necessarily keeping up as much.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_00: I hope that's something that you know since we're having conversations like this, hopefully that helps to change the narrative and get more voices and more different opinions out there so that can start to change.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, it's in you're right I think it's important to focus on both sides of that coin that there's still you know for sure work to be done but yes there's some really groundbreaking and awesome stuff that's happening.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I think too just you know knowing that post-pandemic I've just been like for some reason thinking about the ballet world a lot lately and I'm not even I'm not a ballet dancer.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: We didn't didn't go in that direction.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_01: But like some of the important voices in that world Ashley Bowder, Catherine Morgan, those are big name people who were fired or let go from companies because of their weight and because of their body type and they're speaking out about it.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: And that was that's not a thing people do, you know, for for the most part in the ballet world.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's a different world than where we are all sort of living now.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: But because they're doing it, they're speaking out, you know, that's hopefully empowering other people to to really understand hey like not only are these amazing dancers, they're human beings and we have thoughts and feelings and you know uh we want to have conversations that are more than just I'm a I'm a stick figure on a stage doing doing your bidding, you know, to the ballet company directors.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: But because we do already have so many people in the commercial dance world that have started speaking out about it as well that I'm hopeful that the ballet world kind of kind of follows suit.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it is encouraging just with with social media and everything to see people people willing to take the risk to stand up and make some changes.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's tricky right and I'm not I can't speak to the commercial side of dance because that's not super my wheelhouse but I feel like one of the common arguments in the ballet world anyways is like well the the ballet art form the art form of ballet is all about the body.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_00: So we have to look at the body it's all about the lines it's all about the and it's really tricky to stop and distinguish the fact that like you said these are dancers who are dancers but they're humans first.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_00: So that's another like common phrase I like to use is you know we're humans first dancers second.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like we have to take into account that human the humanness of ourselves and the human experience of having a body and it's so easy in ballet specifically to objectify dancers to just break them down into body parts like you were saying my my boobs my stomach my butt like you know we become a collection of body parts in dance as opposed to being a whole living breathing human who's having the experience of having a body which is really hard in dance.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah it's tricky it's you know it's complicated it's not it's some very multi-layered conversation and topic hey danceworld Apollo Performance is my new favorite footwear brand with dancing performing teaching and even running errands around the city they offer unique compression socks made by dancers and for dancers.
• 31:46
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• 31:50
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• 31:58
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• 32:02
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• 32:17
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• 32:25
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• 32:31
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• 32:39
  SPEAKER_03: Use the code IMPAC10 at checkout for 10% off your order of your new compression socks by Apollo Performance visit their website now at ApolloPerformance.com yeah I'm I'm curious Amanda if you could speak a little bit more on the commercial side of things since you are so heavily immersed in Los Angeles have you seen a change in the industry what was it like when you first were breaking in versus where you're at now and maybe share some experiences that you've you've had when it comes to the auditioning and castings and things.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah um for sure um first I do want to say I definitely think there has been progress made for sure even just the short amount of time that I've been in LA which is about seven or eight years now I've seen a lot of progress made so I want to give props when it's due but like a common thing we've all been saying there's still so so so much we have left to to do and to fix.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah the commercial world is is interesting.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_02: I think one thing that I'll talk about is typecasting that's something that I've kind of struggled with which um typecasting basically is you go into an audition and pretty much before dancing they'll like put you in a line and just based off look they'll be like stay stay thank you thank you thank you you can go and that can be really really damaging um to someone's body image because they know that they're getting cut for their appearance so it's not like they can be like oh maybe I didn't nail the routine or I messed up this or that.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_02: It's like no that was purely based off my body what's wrong right so it's really easy to kind of go down that rabbit hole and get really down on yourself.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I know I've had my own experiences with getting cut at typecasting and I you know have a quick spiral and then I'm like okay no it's fine it's fine that job wasn't for me.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_02: If they don't want me then I don't want them either right it's fine but I think typecasting's a big thing.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_02: Also I think one thing that I talk about is like there's this thing especially in commercial dance of like and especially for dancing for artists of like we want hot sexy people to be dancing behind this rapper like and it's so based off of appearance and like I I know there's certain artists that with how the dance industry runs right now that I will never get to dance for like I just know that they would never hire someone like me sadly because I don't have that look of like super tall, thin like quote unquote model in their in their mind what they think of a model.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_02: And that is still very prevalent today like that whole aesthetic I feel like in that realm of like dancing for artists.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_02: But it has gotten better.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_02: I know that like I've been able to do some really amazing things with some really amazing artists and there's been progress made but one other story I'll tell that kind of kind of goes back to what Katrina was saying about like then it kind of starts to become like tokenism in a way is I did a music video one time and I was the only plus size person on the job and I had told them my sizes before we got to the job you know they asked for size I was like blah blah visit and I get there and they had nothing that fit me.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like that feels so crappy like everyone's waiting in line getting their cute outfits and then they're like oh like try this see if this works and I was basically forced to put on something that like was way too small.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_02: I felt restricted I couldn't do my best and I just had to deal with that.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_02: But that's something where like it might not seem like the biggest deal but it's like they could care less about me and me being comfortable and they didn't really take into account that they hired a plus size person.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_02: So then it kind of started to feel like well yeah you hired me but you're not really accommodating me.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_02: You know so that was kind of upsetting.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_02: So things like that still happen but there has been a lot of progress made for sure.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_01: Well and how frustrating that they asked you for your measurements and that did nothing with them.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like I gave these I did everything you asked me to do and you're still not giving me what you said you would which was a costume.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah yeah I was like oh okay like I really wasn't expecting that but especially like if if you're going to a set you know they and like you like you said Leslie they asked for the sizing before and you're going to a set and they're probably bringing options to try out options on like let's see what looks best.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_03: Let's see what you feel most comfortable in.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_03: Let's see what that person's wearing.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_03: Oh I want this color and they didn't even bring you any options.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_03: They just probably brought one thing and said here you go everyone else is having a whole fashion show over here because they quote unquote fit the right size and then they just kind of it almost feels like a like a you know a smack in the face when you are like oh my God I booked this job.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_03: Oh my God I'm so excited.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_03: And then the atmosphere within it isn't up to the standard that it should be and that and it's it's almost exactly the same as our way in talk of like our first job.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_03: It's like I got hired for this job.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_03: You approved my talent and ability you approved everything.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_03: Now I have to get weighed in after that's almost like a one weight at the audition in person.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like we didn't I I got a got that job from a video.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_01: Right me too asked me my weight it was probably on my resume at that point.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's not anymore.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_01: Spoiler alert everyone you do not have to put your weight on your resume it's one of the things don't do it on your resume.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_03: Don't do it.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_01: And and anyone who asks you to walk away you do not want that job.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah I mean it's that's that's so frustrating and I'm glad you brought up costuming because I know for a fact that there's not enough plus size costuming or even dancewear options out there.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_01: I work for I have worked in the past for several dancewear companies they're not they're they're not there.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_01: They're doing better the tights the tights market is doing a little bit better for for having different sizes and different colors you know that's that part is kind of moving a little faster which is good.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_01: But um but that's one thing that like I think for competitive dancers and studio owners that is in not not that it's in your control but as the consumer you have to demand that it's there.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_01: You have to call Weissman's you have to call Costume Gallery whoever you you have to ask for it because I have heard industry leaders say when suggested by a staff member you need more plus size items.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_01: Well that's not really going to make us any money.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_01: It would probably make you some money if you had some items but you don't and you're not I don't want to invest in it.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_01: You're not catering to the the very real demographic that is out there that wants to partake of your business.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think you know unfortunately nobody's just gonna cater to everybody unless you ask for it.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's something you know people complain about it all the time and I that's a valid complaint that there's not costuming you know for all sizes of people but like I think if if the actual physical demand was there of like everybody knocking on the door like maybe they would step up you know that's a that's a really interesting point and I feel like a question that I come across a lot specifically for like ballet studios or dance studios who you know might want to embrace more different sizing or they want their dancers to be comfortable when they come to class because they know that their dancers aren't feeling so hot in tights and a leotard.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_00: By the way who does like I don't think anybody would voluntarily right want to don tights and the leotard right but it's it's so ingrained that they aren't sure how to navigate that.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the things that I always say is you know the the dance costume or the dance um you know whatever dress code their the studios are having it can prioritize the wearer over the watcher.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_00: And like what a mind-blowing concept right but it can and it absolutely should so as soon as we start to think about things in that aspect you know through that perspective and lens like what happened to Amanda like that's that's ridiculous.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like we just said they they hired you they asked you for your measurements and then blatantly disregarded it they had no they had no thought for you as the dancer as the performer you know needing to use your body and needing to use your instrument in a certain way it was all about the look so what if we started to prioritize you know the wearer of the costume the wearer of the dress code over the watcher it's been flipped the other way around for so long we've stopped questioning it.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_01: That's actually like that's a radical that is radical.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah I mean and you're gonna get pushback from every witch away well it's ballet well it's it's the tradition it's the line and like no it's I mean the the amount of times and like you know body image I think Courtney and I were talking about this earlier it's not only just how you look in the mirror how you feel in your body it's like we said earlier the the physical parts of your body like I have very big boobs.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a small person with very big boobs and the the amount of times that I have just looked at myself in the mirror with disgust, with actual disgust in my heart about how I look because of that one aspect of my body like it it's horrible.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_01: And you know if if we were valuing how the individual felt in what they were given to wear or what they've been asked to wear as opposed to well everyone has to wear this leotard with no bra because we can't have the lines well then I'm never ever going to do a Shangma.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_01: Never ever I will never I wouldn't I would not have been a dancer.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_01: I would not have been a dancer had you asked me to not wear a bra with a leotard.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like it just wouldn't have happened because I was disgusted by what I was looking like.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_01: And you know it's I that's a radical thought.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's brilliant because imagine kids in a studio pleased with how they looked or even just neutral.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't even know if we can reach to pleased at first.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_01: I think neutral is like where we are hoping for I think for a lot of us.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah I agree.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's something that's really important with body image and one thing that falls short on like the social media aspect of positive body image is you know we think that it's loving yourself all the time, which yeah that's a that's a great goal and you will have seasons of your life where you love your body.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_00: I hope that for everybody anyways.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_00: But you will also have seasons of your life where you're not happy with your body or maybe you just had a health thing a scare go on or you're just had a baby or you know any number of things that happen to us as humans.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_00: There are going to be seasons of our lives where we don't feel great in our own skin and we need tools to be able to cope with that and manage that because it's gonna happen.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_00: And you don't have to love your body all the time.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like that is kind of an unrealistic standard.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_00: And of course we want that we want to feel good in our own skin.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's a great goal but what about those times when we don't like let's let's talk about those more let's figure out some tools and resources for ourselves and others that can help us through those times so that eventually we can get to the other side where we're feeling better about ourselves.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah it's it's all of it right it's it's feeling great about ourselves you know liking what we look like what we wear liking our abilities and feeling strong and feeling healthy and not focusing so much on the looks but focusing on the function you know it's all of That.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: And at the same time, it's also, I don't like how I look right now.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_00: I feel really bad about myself.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_00: And that's okay.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_00: I'm still a valuable person.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_00: I still have so much to give and so much to offer.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll I'll figure it out.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_00: You know?
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, this is such an interesting chat.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_03: I love where it's gone.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_03: And as y'all were talking, and even Leslie, when you were bringing up, you know, different parts of our own body.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_03: I think that every single dancer, there is no way in the world that a dancer who at any point in their time training or pursuing or even being a teacher has hasn't experienced some type of body image fear, even just genetically speaking.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_03: Like I'm five two.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_03: That's what I that's how tall I am.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_03: Guess what?
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_03: I'll never be a rocket.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_03: And honestly, like that's that's part of body image to me because uh it's really casting.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_03: Like it's it's I think casting is the thing that really kind of affects our entire industry with the expectation of filling this role, filling this desire based on whatever the producer wants, whatever the choreographer wants, whatever the vision is, we have to fit into a box.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_03: And then that either gains us work or restricts us from work.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_03: And then it's really hard to wrap our head around that because it's really not always about the talent.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_03: We can put the work in, we can do so much for us as dancers, we can train for our lives, we can be versatile, we can be whatever we want to be.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_03: But at the at the the final end goal is to book a job.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_03: And sometimes there's other things that get in the way that won't allow us to.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_03: And a lot of those, a lot of times it's things that are out of our control that we can't help because people have an expectation and a specific vision to fit their role and the and the need.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_03: And whether that's you know, the stereotypical expectation of a particular industry, or whether that's I'm casting for a movie and I need exactly this type of person.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_03: And that's I think that's the hardest part when it comes to like even your example of typecasting.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, can we get rid of that in the industry?
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_03: Geez, like I if you know what you're looking for.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_03: If you don't want someone that if you don't want all shapes and sizes, if you don't want this ethnicity, if you don't want a shorty, then don't call them in.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_03: Don't try to be inclusive and everything where, oh, uh, we accept everyone.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_03: No, you know what you want, and you're just making me feel bad about myself and my body by coming in here, putting my makeup on, putting my outfit on, and you telling me that my body's not good enough, my face isn't good enough, my height isn't good enough.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_03: We don't need that in our industry anymore.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_03: We need to eliminate that.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_03: That exists already, even with typecasting from just typing out our headshots at auditions and things like that.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_03: Casting's doing it and that's their job.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_03: I will say that is their job.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_03: They are paid to do that, they know what they're doing.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_03: But it becomes personal when you line us up in a line and typecast us out.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's just unnecessary.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_03: We are brought in because we are exceptional dancers and we aren't even able to show our exceptional ability because you've completely wrote us off by my outfit choice.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_03: Get out of here.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_03: Like it is it's unacceptable.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that it's, you know, I I I haven't been in a typeout, like a typecasting in a very long time.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_03: And I I know what you're talking about, Amanda.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_03: And like I will say in New York, if that doesn't happen as often, I definitely think it's more of a Los Angeles thing because there's like cattle calls in Los Angeles and we just gotta like weed out.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_03: Like, can we do a botma?
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_03: Can we do a double pirouette?
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_03: Give me something.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_03: Like, come on and like let the talent speak for itself.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_03: And if the final end result is due to I don't fit quote unquote the look that we're going for, whatever their reasoning is, at least I got to show who I am as a dancer.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_03: Because that's why we're here.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_03: We're here to dance, not uh fit into a specific box that this person, you know, needs to the sex appeal and I need to look like this or I need to look like that.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_03: Like it's traumatizing for everyone involved on on that side of the table.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_03: It's tough.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_01: I want to hear from both of you on this because Amanda, I know you teach in LA, correct?
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_01: You teach at like some hardcore pretty good studios, right?
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, some big ones.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_01: And Katrina, you have your own studio, and I know you've taught uh extensively throughout your career as well.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_01: And you sort of do this for a living, which is promote body positivity.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, we have we have a lot of studio owners that listen.
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_01: We have a lot of parents, we have a lot of studio owners and teachers.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm really curious because, like we all said, you know, we're all of in different age ranges here, but we all seem to have grown up in a studio that just didn't talk about it, positive or negative.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_01: It just didn't happen.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_01: It was a non-conversation.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_01: Here we are in 2023, where conversations are happening about everything.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I think they need to happen and have started happening in studios.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to know like how both of you approach body positivity and body image positivity in your your studio spaces.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_01: But Katrina, you can tell us a little bit about some of the things you offer.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_01: I know you offer some like online courses and workbooks and stuff, so I'd love to hear a little bit about that.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, definitely.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I it's funny because I feel like I started at one place with, you know, the concept and idea of body positivity and dance, and it's kind of evolved, and I'm sure it will continue to evolve.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_00: When I first started, you know, I called it body positivity for dancers, and there were courses that I hosted online, which I still host, but that have evolved.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_00: And then I started calling it body kindness, and I do have a membership program called the Body Kind Dance Club, where it's it's a little bit more focused on how to be kind to the whole body, so not just body image necessarily, but mental health and growth mindset and all of those tools that you need to be a human in the world right now.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_00: And another concept that I feel like ties into it now, the more that I've that I'm more that I've caught on it is body image resilience, which I know we just chatted about a little bit.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_00: And to me, that's more of the idea that, like I was saying, there's gonna be seasons where it feels great to be in your body, and there's gonna be seasons where it doesn't feel great to be in your body, and having tools to navigate, you know, all of those ups and downs.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_00: So that's kind of the approach that I take with me, you know, when I teach classes to my dancers, to my students, when I teach workshops online, when I make courses and resources for other dance educators and other dance teachers, is I try and kind of represent that whole evolution and speak to the fact, you know, that we are we're all humans, we we have mental health needs, we have body image needs.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_00: There's tools and things that we can do, you know, to be better teachers for our students, whether that's being aware of how stress shows up in our dancers, you know.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_00: I think a lot of times with traditional dance teaching, it's, you know, toe the line and stand up and, you know, and stand at the bar and do your botmas and do what you're told.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and there's not necessarily a lot of room for the dancer who's really shy or who's really isolated or who might be talking back.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_00: They get labeled as like the dancer that has bad behavior or who's just can't perform.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_00: When in fact, if we dig a little bit deeper, those can be signs of stress or cries out for, you know, I'm I'm struggling with mental health, or I really don't like how I look in my dance uniform.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm gonna try and hide.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_00: Or I'm gonna put up a fuss and you know be privileged.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's another one that I hear a lot of is dancers are so privileged these days.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_00: They, you know, they always talk but they talk back and they they don't want to wear the costume or they disregard the dress code, they come in with sweats.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_00: All of those are really just ways that your dancers are trying to connect with you, that they need help with these issues.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_00: They need help about about not liking their body.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_00: They don't know how to communicate that they had a bad day at school before they came to dance class.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_00: So they're gonna come in and, you know, goof around, or they're gonna try and hide.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I feel like there's more ways that we can try and connect with our dancers in that sense.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_00: So it might be recognizing stress, it might be, you know, things that you can say to your dancers when you can tell that they're having a bad body image day.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_00: It can be, you know, doing something like a body scan at the beginning of dance class or at the end of dance class.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_00: So those are all, you know, tools that I try and embrace for myself, you know, because like you mentioned before, you know, the dance teachers, the directors, we all have a body image experience.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_00: And we've all probably grown up with experiences where it just wasn't dealt with.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_00: So we have our own our own stuff we're bringing to the table or not bringing to the table.
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm, you know, trying to do the work on myself as well as do better for the next generation of dancers.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_00: So those are all things that I cover in the courses that I teach and the workshops that I host.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_00: And they're things that I do for myself and for my dancers in the class that that classes that I teach.
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_00: And my kids love them when I when I do things with my dance students, like body scans, or when we have talks about, you know, the language that we use around bodies or the way that we talk about ourselves.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_00: They just eat it right up.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I have one little student who I've trained so well now to say, I can't do it yet.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_00: Nice, you know, because she would she'd come in and I can't do it, it's too hard.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so we've worked on it.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_00: And now she's just like, she's my little parrot, and she'll say it to the other students.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's just great.
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's really awesome to to see that growth happening.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_00: That's great.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I feel like it's a little tricky for LA because I just do like drop-in classes, so and I also don't have like a consistent slot.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_02: So I just like sub at like Millennium or offstage or wherever it is.
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_02: So it's tricky because it's not always the same students, so I don't really get to build up that like relationship with them necessarily all the time.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_02: So it's hard because it's also an hour and a half class, and I'm like, okay, they're coming to Millennium, so I know they want a lot of choreo, and like they're like, I'm at millennium, I'm professional.
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_02: I love it, but it's hard to kind of I feel like it'd be hard for me to do things like Katrina's doing, which are absolutely amazing.
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I highly like encourage all like teachers to do that because I think that would have been so helpful for me as a student growing up to have things like that.
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_02: But with that said, it's harder to do that at like a millennium drop-in class.
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_02: But one thing I do try to do is be really accommodating to each dancer.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_02: So I know sometimes with my combos, I'll put in something that maybe is a little like trickier or I know is is harder.
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I'll say, like, you know, if this isn't something you can do today, then feel free to make a plan, like a version B.
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_02: And like, do do what feels good to you.
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_02: I always say that too.
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_02: Like, if there's something, I'm like, make it feel good on your body because we're all different.
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_02: And you doing it exactly like me might not feel right for you.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_02: So I always say, like, do what feels right in your body.
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_02: And then I also give a little speech at the beginning of class that makes it very clear that like this is a not judgment class.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_02: And if you want to judge anyone respectfully, you can get out.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_02: Like, that's not, you know, we're all dancers, we're all working hard, we all just want to have fun and and dance and express ourselves, and there's no room for judgment in my class.
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_02: So I really try to make that really clear in the beginning.
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_02: And then, yeah, I feel like I try to give everyone an opportunity to shine as well.
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I kind of felt like growing up sometimes I wasn't seen or I wasn't I wasn't valued in the class.
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_02: Like they didn't take me seriously in a way.
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_02: So I really try to make every student as well feel seen and and valued and appreciated because I know that that again would have helped me so much growing up.
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_02: So I try to do that as well.
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_02: And then this is kind of going to a different topic-ish or touching back on something, but I do want to give props to my high school I went to in California because they were really, really great with me about like what I wore to class or like for ballet.
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_02: Like I was like, guys, I really just don't want to wear tights and a leotard.
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_02: I've done it for 14 years and it's just not something that that makes me feel my best and not something I really want to dance in, at least not that point in my life where I was at.
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_02: And they were like, Oh, okay, like you can wear leggings and as long as it's not too baggy.
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, Thank you so much.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_02: And then like ballet has just always kind of been a something that I don't, it wasn't a great thing for me.
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I didn't enjoy doing it growing up, and it's just kind of like a not a touchy subject, but it just wasn't for me and it didn't help me with my body image at all.
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_02: And I didn't really enjoy it.
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_02: And my teachers knew that in high school.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_02: And so instead of having me do do the ballet piece, they were like, Hey, would you rather do this jazz piece?
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, Yes, give me the jazz piece, you know.
• 56:29
  SPEAKER_02: So they were just really, really accommodating.
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it kind of goes back to like just being there for your students and listening to them.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_02: And if they express something to you, really take it seriously and don't take it as them trying to be difficult to work with or trying to cause drama or anything.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_02: They're really just trying to make themselves comfortable and do what's right for them.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_02: So I think if we can just hear our students out more and not think of it as so much, I'm the teacher, they're the student, they're below me.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_02: I think if we see it more as like we're a team and we're all working together, then that would help a lot.
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_02: So I think just the more you listen, the better.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, that's great.
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_03: Love that.
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_03: Y'all, this was such a great chat.
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_03: I'm so glad we had this conversation on the podcast.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_03: And we couldn't have had two uh better guests to join us today on this episode.
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_03: So thank you so much to Katrina and Amanda for sitting down and talking about this very important topic for our dance industry.
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_03: And hopefully we continue to see more progress being made and having more conversations like this, I think will only make our industry better and better.
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_03: So thank you so much for being here and joining us on the pod.
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_03: How we have our guests lead us out on making the impact is just with one final thought that you'd like to share to whoever out there, whether it's dancers, teachers, parents, anyone in the dance world on the topic today, body image.
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, if I were to kind of sum up my final thought for the podcast, which this was so much fun.
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for having me.
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_02: I would just remind everyone that everybody is a dancer's body.
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_02: I think I hear that term so frequently, and I think it's really damaging.
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_02: And just everybody's a dancer's body.
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_02: Anybody that dances is a dancer's body, you know what I mean?
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that's a good thought to leave with.
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_02: And then just do what you're passionate about and don't let other people stop you from chasing your dreams because I would hate for people to look back and say, Oh, I wish I would have just kept going.
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_02: So believe in yourself and if you love it, then keep doing it.
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_00: So one that I come back to again and again for myself, for the work that I do, is that our bodies are instruments and not ornaments.
• 58:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_00: Another mind-blowing one.
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I have to give credit where credit is due.
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_00: That is not mine.
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_00: That is from the amazing book More Than a Body by Lindsay and Lexi Kite, which, as we're on our way out, um, if anybody wants to grab that, it's a really life-changing book.
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's not specifically about dance, but it covers so many topics related to what we talked about today and body image and specifically how that affects women and girls.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I can't recommend that book enough.
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_00: But I feel like that sentiment, you know, the body is an instrument, not an ornament, is so applicable to dance and just is an important one to keep in mind as we go out in the dance world and try to have more of these conversations about body image.
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_00: And like I said, try and be a human, having a human experience in the dance world with a body, and just really good food for thought as we, you know, continue this journey.
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_03: We hope you enjoyed this week's episode all about body image in the dance world.
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_03: Be sure to follow our guests on social media.
• 59:36
  SPEAKER_03: You can find Katrina at Diff Drum Dance and Amanda at Amanda Count.
• 59:42
  SPEAKER_03: Also, be sure to check out Katrina's online education platform, Different Drummer Dance.
• 59:47
  SPEAKER_03: This summer they will be hosting Summer Wellness Workshops, where they will focus on building better body imaging dancers, positive performance critical, and growth mindset practices.
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_03: Learn more at DifferentDrummerDance.com.
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