Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / NEIGHBORS IN FEAR: HUBBY BEHEADED IN GARAGE, WIFE IN LAKE TIED TO CEMENT CHUNK

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NEIGHBORS IN FEAR: HUBBY BEHEADED IN GARAGE, WIFE IN LAKE TIED TO CEMENT CHUNK · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:00
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
0:06
Speaker 2: Neighbors in fear a beloved couple found the hubby beheaded
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Speaker 2: in the garage. Yes, you heard me, the husband found
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Speaker 2: decapitated in the garage.
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Speaker 1: The wife nobody could.
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Speaker 2: Find for the longest time, and then she was found
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Speaker 2: by fishermen in the lake, tied to a cement chunk.
0:35
Speaker 2: Good evening. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank
0:38
Speaker 2: you for being with us.
0:40
Speaker 3: Russell and Shirley Durmond are happily married and living in
0:42
Speaker 3: a beautiful lakefront property Lake of Coney, Georgia. The couple
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Speaker 3: is expected at a Kentucky Derby watch party with neighbors,
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Speaker 3: but don't show up. When the neighbors reach out by phone,
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Speaker 3: the Dermins don't pick up. Days later, however, arriving at
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Speaker 3: the Dermoin's home, the neighbor's surprised to find the front
0:57
Speaker 3: door unlocked, calling out their names. Nobody replies with.
1:01
Speaker 2: Me in allstar panel to make since we says of
1:03
Speaker 2: what we know right now about the Dorman's disappearance, and
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Speaker 2: I want to go first to a special guest joining
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Speaker 2: us from Putnham County. The elected sheriff Sheriff Howard Seals,
1:14
Speaker 2: Sheriff Seals, thank you for being with us.
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Speaker 1: Isn't it odd that the.
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Speaker 2: Smallest in detail can raise the red alarm? Right, the
1:25
Speaker 2: flag of alarm. When this neighbor realized that the door
1:30
Speaker 2: was not secure, that it was unlocked, right then the
1:35
Speaker 2: neighbor knew something was terribly wrong.
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Speaker 4: A lot of suspects, but a lot of people there
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Speaker 4: in this community still do a lot of the doors.
1:42
Speaker 5: Nancy, Yeah, you know what.
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Speaker 1: I'm very familiar with Putnham County.
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Speaker 2: I was the camp counselor there at a national forest,
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Speaker 2: the four h Rock Eagle Camp, and it is beautiful,
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Speaker 2: but it's also very densely forested with a lot of lakes.
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Speaker 2: And this home was on the beautiful lake Otony. Those
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Speaker 2: are beautiful homes.
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Speaker 5: Right there on the lake right this very well, this
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Speaker 5: was part of Reynolds at Lake o'cony, so very exclusive
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Speaker 5: neighborhood of very expensive homes.
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Speaker 2: Joseph Scott Morgan is joining me, Professor of forensics at
2:23
Speaker 2: Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet, death
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Speaker 2: investigator and host of a hit series.
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Speaker 1: Body Bags of Joe Scott Morgan.
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Speaker 2: Joe Scott, you and I have been to the scene
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Speaker 2: and a very very extensively walked the area.
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Speaker 1: Not only is the dense forest an issue.
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Speaker 3: But.
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Speaker 2: The fact that this is such a high end property
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Speaker 2: a gated community where crime is very, very low.
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Speaker 1: That's the first oddity in this.
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Speaker 6: You know, sheriff. The sheriff had mentioned this being rentals
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Speaker 6: rentals plantation for those of us from anywhere around South
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Speaker 6: approximate in this area, we're very familiar with this location.
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Speaker 6: You're talking about very high end living, and you have
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Speaker 6: an expectation of safety in these particular parts where you
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Speaker 6: know something this horrible and this is at the top
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Speaker 6: of the scale, Nancy, as far as cases go that
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Speaker 6: we've been covering Loath these many years, you don't expect
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Speaker 6: something this horrific to have occurred in this Rather, I
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Speaker 6: don't know how to say it other than just kind
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Speaker 6: of safe and bucolic location here on this beautiful lake Ocone,
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Speaker 6: And you begin to think about points of access. How
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Speaker 6: in the world would somebody be brave enough to go
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Speaker 6: into this location and how did they access this home
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Speaker 6: in this gated community, And it smacks a level of
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Speaker 6: familiarity with the area. To me, it always has, at least.
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Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, hold on right there, Joe Scott.
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Speaker 2: Everything you're saying is absolutely correct, but I want to
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Speaker 2: hone in on it.
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Speaker 1: Before I miss a point.
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Speaker 2: You know, I feel like an English teacher, you know
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Speaker 2: how they dissect the sentences on the blackboard.
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Speaker 6: Yes, and don't ask me what a jarin is because
4:17
Speaker 6: I still have to figure that out.
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Speaker 2: But you just gave me so much information and everybody
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Speaker 2: on the panel, do I have to remind you we're
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Speaker 2: not having high tea at Buckingham Palace. Jump in if
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Speaker 2: you have a thought, because although the sheriff has been
4:32
Speaker 2: working this case, I'm sure he's open to any new ideas.
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Speaker 2: Joe Scott, you mentioned the level of familiarity as you said, Okay,
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Speaker 2: if somebody said to me, okay, I want you to
4:43
Speaker 2: fly over to Oregon and I want you to find
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Speaker 2: Oregon Forest Tree neighborhood and go to this certain house,
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Speaker 2: I would not have any idea what they were talking about. Right,
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Speaker 2: We're in Oregon. You know how wooded Oregon is. So
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Speaker 2: where is this neighborhood? It's gated? How am I going
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Speaker 2: to get in unless I climb over a fence? And
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Speaker 2: do I have access to get in? And then you
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Speaker 2: go back through all these windy roads, how are you
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Speaker 2: going to find the place?
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Speaker 1: How are you going to find the victims?
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Speaker 2: How are you going to dispose of the wife with
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Speaker 2: nobody seeing or hearing a thing?
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Speaker 1: And I grew up on a red dirt road, Joe Scott,
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Speaker 1: as you know.
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Speaker 2: So when you refer to quote high end living, what
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Speaker 2: exactly do you mean by that?
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Speaker 4: Let me just say this. We've got a link that
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Speaker 4: spans five counties, and the opportunity to get there by
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Speaker 4: water is infinitestible. Okay. Likewise, and when you talk about
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Speaker 4: where do you go if you're looking for Russell Durman,
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Speaker 4: you can go on the website of the Putnam County
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Speaker 4: Taxis Sisters website and find out exactly.
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Speaker 1: We won't click, but that would.
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Speaker 2: And you're right, you're totally right about all of what
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Speaker 2: you just said, Sheriff. But that takes me to someone
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Speaker 2: with a boat. Okay, that means money. Somebody with a
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Speaker 2: boat on Lake Oconey, which narrows my suspect pool. Somebody
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Speaker 2: that would take a boat to their home, docket, commit
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Speaker 2: the murders, and then take the wife's body tied to
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Speaker 2: a cement rock, chuck out into the water. Who would
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Speaker 2: approach this by boat? And as far as the tax assessment,
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Speaker 2: you're right again share of sales, But that tells me
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Speaker 2: a lot about the purp. Somebody that's familiar with the computer,
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Speaker 2: somebody would think, hey, if I go to the tax
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Speaker 2: assessor's website, I can find this guy that's very targeted.
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Speaker 2: So Scott, when you refer to high end living, what's that.
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Speaker 6: Well, you think you have access to all of these
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Speaker 6: amenities around there, not just the lake, but very high
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Speaker 6: end golfing. If anyone's ever heard of rentals plantation, this
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Speaker 6: is not something just somebody off the street can walk
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Speaker 6: in and afford to do. And that tells you a
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Speaker 6: lot about the Germans, I think relative to the life
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Speaker 6: that they had chosen to live in this supposedly secure
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Speaker 6: location where they could live out their golden years in
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Speaker 6: this particular spot. And back to the lake, just one
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Speaker 6: more second here, going to familiarity, I think that it's
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Speaker 6: key because unless it was perhaps a neighbor that had
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Speaker 6: access to a boat that could do this sort of thing,
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Speaker 6: we have to think about, well, how familiar are they
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Speaker 6: with local boat ramps where you can launch a boat
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Speaker 6: to get into this location? And you begin to think
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Speaker 6: about nighttime and being able to kind of navigate your
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Speaker 6: way through this environment, and the placement of the remains
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Speaker 6: is certainly key here as well.
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Speaker 2: So bottom line, let me understand this, Dave mag joining
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Speaker 2: me Crime Online dot Com investigative reporter.
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Speaker 1: The cheapest house you can get.
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Speaker 2: And when you hear Joe Scott Morgan referring to high
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Speaker 2: end living his words, not mine, I'm trying to get
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Speaker 2: my head wrapped around that because we thought we were
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Speaker 2: living high end when we finally got a washer and
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Speaker 2: a dryer. Yeah, washer and dryer. That was the big
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Speaker 2: time for us, and we would all just go look
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Speaker 2: at it. We were not allowed to touch it, of course,
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Speaker 2: until we learned kind of use it. But that said,
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Speaker 2: did you know, Dave Matt that the cheapest place, the
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Speaker 2: cheapest house you can get at this RENTLDS plantation on
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Speaker 2: this lake is in the over five hundred thousand dollars
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Speaker 2: approaching six hundred thousand.
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Speaker 1: That's the cheapest.
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Speaker 3: It's an amazing, beautiful place.
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Speaker 1: Yeah.
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Speaker 2: And you know, Dave Matt, as you and I have
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Speaker 2: discussed many many times off camera, I don't care if
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Speaker 2: the victims are rich, poor, middle class, if they got
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Speaker 2: a PhD. Or they dropped out in third grade, don't care.
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Speaker 2: My point is the level of crime in this gated
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Speaker 2: community with multimillion dollar dollar homes on the lake front
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Speaker 2: is zero. I mean, nobody is getting murdered, much less
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Speaker 2: beheaded in this area.
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Speaker 1: That's where I'm headed, Dave Matt.
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Speaker 3: Nancy, when you really look at this, okay, and no,
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Speaker 3: nobody's getting beheaded, nobody's getting kidnapped, nobody's getting murdered in
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Speaker 3: this beautiful place. But Nancy, this wasn't even a robbery. Okay,
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Speaker 3: the limited the level of crime here is very very low.
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Speaker 3: But again, remember here we have two people dead in
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Speaker 3: the most heinous way you can imagine, and yet there
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Speaker 3: wasn't It wasn't like there was a robbery going on
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Speaker 3: and they surprised the burglars and it blew up. There
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Speaker 3: was no robbery, There was nothing taken. And by the way,
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Speaker 3: doesn't even look like there's any evidence inside the house
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Speaker 3: that they were killed inside the house.
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Speaker 1: Who would be had the.
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Speaker 2: Dad and tie this grandma to a cement chunk and
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Speaker 2: throw her to the bottom of the lake. Who this
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Speaker 2: is not your ordinary barbral Joe Scott Morgan professor forensics.
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Speaker 2: So we're looking at an entirely different suspect Pool.
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Speaker 6: Yeah, you certainly are. You're looking at somebody that has
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Speaker 6: that has a certain level of planning. You know, this
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Speaker 6: is not obviously some kind of spontaneous event where one
10:31
Speaker 6: person says something it makes somebody angry and they just
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Speaker 6: fly off the handle and you've got an assault at least,
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Speaker 6: so homicide nothing like that. This takes preparation, It takes
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Speaker 6: tom and again I come back to this benchmark throughout
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Speaker 6: this entire case. It involves familiarity with the location, you know,
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Speaker 6: access and opportunity. How could you know this? How could
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Speaker 6: you be aware of tomlines? How could you be aware
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Speaker 6: of where to deposit a body and to do it
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Speaker 6: in a stealthy manner?
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Speaker 1: Guys, I want to go back to the scene. What
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Speaker 1: can we learn?
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Speaker 3: Listen, the same neighbor decides to look in the garage
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Speaker 3: to see if the Dermoin's car is there. It's there.
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Speaker 3: In the garage. The neighbor discovers Russell Durmont laying on
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Speaker 3: the garage floor, decapitated.
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Speaker 2: So the neighbor realizes that something is very wrong. To
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Speaker 2: doctor John Delatory, psychologist and mediator who specializes in forensic
11:26
Speaker 2: psychology and you can find him at resolution fcs dot com.
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Speaker 2: Doctor Delatory, thank you for being with us. If there's
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Speaker 2: no sex attack and there's no robbery, who would.
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Speaker 1: Go to the effort.
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Speaker 2: I'm not just killing this beloved couple, not just killing them,
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Speaker 2: but decapitating the father and tying the mom to a
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Speaker 2: cement chunk and throwing her in the water.
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Speaker 1: Why.
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Speaker 7: I think this is someone who feels offended somehow. The
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Speaker 7: Dermot's offended this individual. The Dermans may not even know
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Speaker 7: what they did, or they might not even know who
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Speaker 7: this perpetrator actually was, but this person felt offended by
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Speaker 7: what was going on. And I think he was offended.
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Speaker 7: I say he because more likely he is the offender,
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Speaker 7: is that he But I think he was offended by
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Speaker 7: mister Dermott. I think a lot of it is probably
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Speaker 7: targeted because of whatever it was that that.
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Speaker 6: He was doing.
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Speaker 7: I think this is I think he wanted mister Dermot
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Speaker 7: to watch what the offender was going to do to
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Speaker 7: missus Dermott. I think that there's a lot more sort
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Speaker 7: of internal struggle strive for that. There's a lot of
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Speaker 7: anger that is associated with this that I'm not even
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Speaker 7: sure this family even knew existed or even knew that
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Speaker 7: this person existed before it all happened.
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Speaker 2: Okay to Sheriff Howard Seals joining us Cela does Sheriff
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Speaker 2: they're in Putnam County, Sheriff Sales. We hear doctor Jelaty,
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Speaker 2: and I'm not saying that he's wrong, but I said.
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Speaker 1: Let's follow it through to its logical conclusion.
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Speaker 2: Someone angry with mister dermotd angry about what, angry about
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Speaker 2: what he was doing?
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Speaker 1: What was he doing?
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Speaker 4: Well, I don't know that, but I agree with his
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Speaker 4: assessment of that because the assault of missus Dermot was
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Speaker 4: quite violent. She was struck multiple times through the skull
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Speaker 4: with something like a hammer. I don't know if it
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Speaker 4: was a hammer, but something like that. And that's particularly violent.
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Speaker 4: And there's some evidence that we have that I don't
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Speaker 4: want to go into great detail, that mister Durman was
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Speaker 4: present when that occurred. We do not believe she was
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Speaker 4: killed at the house, and we believe he was shot
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Speaker 4: only because there was some gunshot residue on his shirt.
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Speaker 4: So it's very much a violent crime, very much pointed
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Speaker 4: toward them. We've never thought otherwise and it's but through
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Speaker 4: you cannot imagine what we've done from the standpoint of
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Speaker 4: technology MinC records. I mean, you just can't imagine. But
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Speaker 4: we just simply have not been able to find that
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Speaker 4: individual that would have had that type of animosity so far.
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Speaker 3: Russell Durman's body is found lying between the two cars
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Speaker 3: in the garage. He's wearing a short sleeved shirt and
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Speaker 3: a pair of boxers, and he's found lying on top
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Speaker 3: of a robe while his slippers are tossed to the side.
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Speaker 3: Russell Durman's bear feet are stained with blood and there's
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Speaker 3: a faint red trail smeared from the door all the
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Speaker 3: way to his body. Towels have been placed around impresumably
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Speaker 3: to prevent blood from leaking under the garage door. His
14:39
Speaker 3: hands are bruised and bloody, with a severe gash on
14:42
Speaker 3: the left index finger. Strands of Shirley Derman's hairritangle within
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Speaker 3: Russell Durmant's fingers, suggesting a struggle between de Durman's and
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Speaker 3: their attacker.
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Speaker 2: Boy, do I need a professor of forensics right now?
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Speaker 2: Joe Scott Morgan? Do you hear all that that's a
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Speaker 2: lot of forensic evidence to wade through.
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Speaker 6: It certainly is, and you begin to think about the
15:01
Speaker 6: dynamics of the attack, as Sheriff had mentioned earlier on
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Speaker 6: Missus Dermot, which is quite intriguing from a forensic standpoint
15:09
Speaker 6: when you talk about what type of weapon this individual
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Speaker 6: showed up with or perhaps access from the home in
15:16
Speaker 6: order to commit such an attack like this. It's very upclose, personal,
15:21
Speaker 6: very bloody affair, you would think. And then you have
15:25
Speaker 6: this contact trace evidence that goes over to mister Dermott.
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Speaker 6: It gives you an idea of the intimacy the proximity
15:34
Speaker 6: of these two individuals is there as the attack is
15:37
Speaker 6: going on, and you know, for me, I'm thinking what
15:42
Speaker 6: would be what would be the end game here relative
15:45
Speaker 6: to one of these individuals who have been married for
15:49
Speaker 6: years and years and years Nancy for the perp to
15:53
Speaker 6: have terrorized them in front of one another. And so
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Speaker 6: that again goes to the dynamic of what the individual
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Speaker 6: that is that they're looking for the perp has against
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Speaker 6: these individuals. Because the level of violence we're talking about,
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Speaker 6: what do.
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Speaker 2: You make of the fact that Russell had his wife's
16:15
Speaker 2: hair intertwined in his fingers.
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Speaker 6: I'd be interested to know how was it intertwined? Is
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Speaker 6: this something that had occurred as a result of hair
16:26
Speaker 6: being pulled from her head by him? You have to
16:29
Speaker 6: consider that, and then you also have to think about, well,
16:33
Speaker 6: if there's like a copious amount of blood. Sometimes you know,
16:36
Speaker 6: we slough hair, and many times if you have this
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Speaker 6: tackiness on the surface of the of the of the
16:41
Speaker 6: hand and you're in proximity to loose hair, that can
16:45
Speaker 6: transfer onto the hand. So I'd have to know about
16:47
Speaker 6: the placement of the hair. I'd like to know what
16:50
Speaker 6: his fingernails look like if they and I'm sure that
16:52
Speaker 6: they probably did. The State Medical Examiner's Office did nail
16:56
Speaker 6: trimmings and scrapings on both of these. Well, probably not
16:59
Speaker 6: miss Dermin, that wouldn't have offered much information, but certainly
17:04
Speaker 6: mister Dermot because he was found in a dry environment.
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Speaker 2: I'm very curious because this reminds me of the Scott
17:11
Speaker 2: Peterson case where he murdered Lacey and his unborn child Connor.
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Speaker 2: Looking at these two in their youth so in love,
17:20
Speaker 2: remember Joe Scott that Lacy's hair wasn't just sitting on
17:25
Speaker 2: Scott Peterson's toolbox. It wasn't just sitting on a pair
17:30
Speaker 2: of long nosed pliers. It was intertwined in the pliers. Now,
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Speaker 2: how did that happen? Same thing here we've got to
17:42
Speaker 2: find out. How was her hair on his hand? Was
17:48
Speaker 2: it in between his fingers? Was it stuck on his
17:51
Speaker 2: wedding band? Was it stuck in.
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Speaker 1: Blood that had dried? Did it come from her head?
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Speaker 2: In other words, was the root still attached, the nucleus
18:01
Speaker 2: still attached.
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Speaker 1: To the hair.
18:02
Speaker 2: Was it a transfer from dragging his body across the
18:06
Speaker 2: floor and he got a hair on his hands. We
18:08
Speaker 2: don't know the answer to that, and that's very important.
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Speaker 2: Would you agree, yes.
18:12
Speaker 6: I would The dynamic that you're thinking about relative two bodies.
18:17
Speaker 6: After when you have a multiple homicide, for instance, what's
18:22
Speaker 6: the perpetrator going to do with the bodies? And let's
18:25
Speaker 6: just say, for instance, you have a circumstance where you
18:29
Speaker 6: have two bodies that are essentially contacting one of one
18:32
Speaker 6: another at least for a period of time. Any number
18:35
Speaker 6: of things can transfer from one body to the other,
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Speaker 6: And I think probably the sheriff is certainly considering this
18:41
Speaker 6: and this ongoing investigation. He has to it to think about,
18:44
Speaker 6: you know, those points of contact along the way both
18:48
Speaker 6: inside the house in the garage and this mysterious vessel
18:53
Speaker 6: that we might be talking about as well as here,
18:55
Speaker 6: because you know, literally with that, with that boat, you've
18:58
Speaker 6: got a floating crime. I'm seen as well.
19:00
Speaker 1: You really do.
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Speaker 2: Sheriff Howard steals with us. He elected sheriff in Putnam County.
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Speaker 2: What about the hair? I've heard the description that it
19:09
Speaker 2: was intertwined in his fingers.
19:11
Speaker 1: Is that correct?
19:12
Speaker 4: We believe and I believe what happened is mister Durman
19:17
Speaker 4: reached out to block the blow against his wife's head
19:22
Speaker 4: when they enter, and that caused the laceration. This and
19:28
Speaker 4: also it was a compound fracture and the finger and
19:31
Speaker 4: that's where the hair was. So I think that he
19:34
Speaker 4: was actually attempting to defend the blow against his wife
19:38
Speaker 4: and that's how it got in there. It's pretty clear.
19:41
Speaker 4: That's what it is to me.
19:49
Speaker 2: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace joining me now. Is an
19:53
Speaker 2: esteemed scientist. It is doctor Kristen Middleman, the chief Developlopment
20:00
Speaker 2: officer at Authram Labs. You can find her at DNA
20:05
Speaker 2: solves dot com. A renowned scientist. And when I say
20:11
Speaker 2: she is a chief development officer, she is a scientist,
20:17
Speaker 2: an expert in cutting edge DNA technology. Doctor Bentleman, thank
20:23
Speaker 2: you for being with us. This has got to be
20:25
Speaker 2: a scientist like you. A dream, a coin ucopia of
20:32
Speaker 2: DNA evidence.
20:33
Speaker 8: Actually it's a nightmare DNA evidence because there is so
20:38
Speaker 8: much blood, there is so much gruesomeness that belongs to
20:41
Speaker 8: the victims in this crime scene that it overshadows and
20:45
Speaker 8: overtakes the DNA evidence left by perpetrators. But yes, there
20:51
Speaker 8: is definitely a lot of DNA evidence here, and that's
20:56
Speaker 8: part of what makes this crime scene where you have
21:00
Speaker 8: to figure out multiple different types of evidence to test
21:08
Speaker 8: to try to figure out who might have committed this
21:10
Speaker 8: crime and if it was only one person that committed
21:12
Speaker 8: this crime or multiple.
21:14
Speaker 3: Investigators began a neighborhood search and beyond for Shirley Dermot
21:17
Speaker 3: without success. The decapitated body of her husband, Russell Dermott,
21:21
Speaker 3: was placed in the garage with towels placed around the body.
21:24
Speaker 3: Early on, investigators believed Russell was killed elsewhere and his
21:28
Speaker 3: body brought to the garage because the towels appeared to
21:31
Speaker 3: be placed around his body to prevent blood from seeping
21:33
Speaker 3: out under the garage door. But there doesn't appear to
21:36
Speaker 3: be as much blood in the towels as would be
21:37
Speaker 3: expected had he been decapitated while still alive. Where his
21:41
Speaker 3: body is found?
21:42
Speaker 2: Which to you, Sheriff Howard Sills, I led to Sheriff
21:45
Speaker 2: Putnam County, leads me to the question, if not murdered there,
21:51
Speaker 2: where were they killed and what was the purpose of
21:54
Speaker 2: bringing them back to their own home?
21:57
Speaker 4: Well, that's the million dollar question, and that if I
22:01
Speaker 4: probably knew the answer, there'd be somebody in the back
22:04
Speaker 4: back here today. But we don't believe obviously that she
22:08
Speaker 4: was killed there, and while on earth they would have
22:11
Speaker 4: brought his body back. I do not know. He was
22:16
Speaker 4: certainly deceased at the time of the decapitation, So this
22:20
Speaker 4: was more of a preventive for deep coop flu and
22:25
Speaker 4: things like that leaking out from under the garage and door.
22:28
Speaker 4: I think that actual blood.
22:31
Speaker 2: Scott Morgan joining us explain how a medical examiner can
22:36
Speaker 2: determine if Russell was decapitated prior to his death, or
22:43
Speaker 2: if that was the cause of the cause of death
22:46
Speaker 2: or decapitated post mortem it was a.
22:49
Speaker 6: Post mortem decapitation, or any severance of any appendance of
22:52
Speaker 6: the body if it's in the post mortem state, you're
22:55
Speaker 6: not going to have what we refer to as this
22:57
Speaker 6: little focal, which means to be very specific areas of
23:01
Speaker 6: hemorrhage into the soft tissue. And what that means is
23:03
Speaker 6: that as the body is being traumatized in life, the
23:07
Speaker 6: blood will actually leach out into the surrounding tissue where
23:12
Speaker 6: the trauma has occurred. When we're doing an examination of
23:16
Speaker 6: a body and we see, for instance, something as horrific
23:19
Speaker 6: as this, we're going to look for hemorrhage. If you have, say,
23:23
Speaker 6: what remains of the neck, you begin to kind of
23:29
Speaker 6: circumferentially around the area where this has taken place, You're
23:33
Speaker 6: going to look for hemorrhage in there. If you're absent
23:35
Speaker 6: that hemorrhage, you can deduce at that point in time
23:38
Speaker 6: that you're looking at a post mortem or after death injury.
23:42
Speaker 2: And the sheriff seems very convinced. He said it as
23:45
Speaker 2: a matter of fact that Russell was decapitated after he
23:50
Speaker 2: was killed. The theory is that there were at least
23:54
Speaker 2: two perpetrators.
23:56
Speaker 3: Why what's Putnam County Sheriff Howard Zille says the evidence
24:00
Speaker 3: points to at least two people being involved in the
24:02
Speaker 3: murders of Russell and Shirley Durmot. The sheriff says he
24:05
Speaker 3: believes the couple was murdered in a place as yet
24:08
Speaker 3: unknown to investigators, and the double homicide appears to have
24:11
Speaker 3: been personal, not something that happened during the commission of
24:14
Speaker 3: another crime, such as a burglary, as nothing appears to
24:17
Speaker 3: have been stolen.
24:18
Speaker 2: Sheriff, why are you convinced through at least two perpetrators
24:21
Speaker 2: that murder these two?
24:22
Speaker 4: Well, missus Derman's body, I mean, we're talking about two
24:26
Speaker 4: bodies here that were moved. She was disposed of by
24:31
Speaker 4: boat five miles down the lake. And I just find
24:35
Speaker 4: it almost impossible that one person could have picked up
24:40
Speaker 4: bodies and things like that and moved them around from
24:43
Speaker 4: one location to another, much less six miles down the
24:47
Speaker 4: lake than tied the bag with the box and and
24:50
Speaker 4: all that. I just found that highly unlikely. At least two.
24:55
Speaker 4: It wouldn't surprise me. Quite can't through a more.
24:58
Speaker 2: Doctor Kristen Middleman joining us t officer at off Ram
25:02
Speaker 2: Labs who specialize and degraded or even old DNA really
25:09
Speaker 2: working miracles.
25:10
Speaker 1: Doctor Middleman, thank you for being with us.
25:13
Speaker 2: If you were advising a crew of forensics experts on
25:18
Speaker 2: how and where they should look for DNA at this scene.
25:23
Speaker 2: What would you tell them.
25:24
Speaker 8: I would definitely look at everything that was just like
25:28
Speaker 8: Joe said earlier, underneath fingernails, things that had touched the
25:32
Speaker 8: body that may not have been overcome by all the
25:35
Speaker 8: blood and all of the other fluids that were at
25:38
Speaker 8: the crime scene. Because the victim was decapitated, that was
25:42
Speaker 8: found in the garage, you have a lot of DNA
25:48
Speaker 8: that belongs to the victim that may overpower any touch
25:51
Speaker 8: DNA or DNA that was found on the towel or
25:54
Speaker 8: the robe or anything that was around that victim to
25:58
Speaker 8: stop bleeding. So those are things I would say, try
26:02
Speaker 8: to find DNA that would be a higher mixture of
26:06
Speaker 8: the perpetrator than it would be the victim, just like
26:09
Speaker 8: skin cells, under fingernails or something the perpetrator may have
26:14
Speaker 8: touched and not the victim or the victim's fluids. Now,
26:18
Speaker 8: the other thing is you said earlier that maybe her
26:22
Speaker 8: fingernails wouldn't be useful because they were at the bottom
26:25
Speaker 8: of a lake. I still think that DNA could be
26:28
Speaker 8: pulled from something like that. We have identified people that
26:32
Speaker 8: have been chopped to bits and the suitcases at the
26:35
Speaker 8: bottom of a lake for decades, bottom of sewage tanks.
26:38
Speaker 8: So we have figured out ways to overcome water and
26:42
Speaker 8: degradation that comes contamination that comes with being in water
26:45
Speaker 8: for a very long time. So I would still look
26:48
Speaker 8: at that evidence as well. Maybe because her body was
26:52
Speaker 8: discarded before it was manipulated as much as his by
26:55
Speaker 8: the decapitation, maybe there would be more DNA her body
27:01
Speaker 8: that could be found that would be more perpetrator. That
27:05
Speaker 8: would be my suggestion.
27:07
Speaker 3: There is no evidence to suggest either of the dermoms
27:10
Speaker 3: were killed inside their house. There is also no evidence
27:13
Speaker 3: of the exact time and date of their death. Sheriff
27:16
Speaker 3: Sills said Shirley Dermot was working on a crossword puzzle
27:19
Speaker 3: out of US eight to day that's left on the
27:21
Speaker 3: kitchen table. The Dermin's bed was unmade, and Russell Dermot
27:24
Speaker 3: was found laying on top of his bathrobe wearing his
27:27
Speaker 3: boxers and a T shirt. Which Sureley Dermom's body is
27:30
Speaker 3: found in Lake Aconi. She is completely dressed.
27:32
Speaker 2: To Sheriff Howard Zills joining us from Putnam County Sheriff,
27:36
Speaker 2: that tells you about what time of the.
27:39
Speaker 1: Day do you think these two were murdered.
27:42
Speaker 4: Well, again, we don't really know. Because of talking to
27:46
Speaker 4: the Durmo's children, we learned that when mister Dermot would
27:50
Speaker 4: get up in the morning, if he didn't have anything
27:52
Speaker 4: to do, that he would lounge around for several hours,
27:55
Speaker 4: sometimes with his robe and bedclothes. However, her custom was
28:02
Speaker 4: when she got up, she immediately became dressed. We do
28:07
Speaker 4: know that a man was seen or somebody was seen
28:12
Speaker 4: in the yard on the Saturday before the Kentucky derby,
28:18
Speaker 4: so we actually think, because of all of that together
28:23
Speaker 4: that this probably happened initially sometimes Saturday during the daytime.
28:28
Speaker 2: Well, I'm curious just looking at people's behavior. He still
28:35
Speaker 2: had on his boxers and a T shirt. She was
28:39
Speaker 2: doing the crossword puzzle. Joining me is doctor John Delatory,
28:44
Speaker 2: renowned psychologist and mediator who specializes in forensic psychology.
28:49
Speaker 1: Doctor Delatory number one.
28:53
Speaker 2: I need to know the date of the USA Today
28:55
Speaker 2: crossroord puzzle, and it's just striking me that this was
28:59
Speaker 2: in the morning, which makes this even more of an aberration,
29:03
Speaker 2: an oddity.
29:04
Speaker 7: Yeah, because they're unprepared, right, there's nothing to suggest that
29:08
Speaker 7: anything is going on in their daily lives that made
29:11
Speaker 7: them afraid of whatever it.
29:12
Speaker 1: Is that's going on.
29:13
Speaker 7: Even if there was an individual in their yard, it
29:16
Speaker 7: certainly doesn't appear as though that individual shouldn't be there, right,
29:20
Speaker 7: So there's a lot that's sort of just the routine, right,
29:23
Speaker 7: the mundane, the regular things that these two individuals kind
29:26
Speaker 7: of go through. They weren't expecting any of this to happen, so.
29:30
Speaker 1: They weren't prepared.
29:32
Speaker 7: This is not so much a blitz attack, because there's
29:34
Speaker 7: nothing to suggest in the home that you know, all
29:36
Speaker 7: of a sudden there was some kind of fight, but
29:39
Speaker 7: there is something in which they were unprepared and they
29:42
Speaker 7: just kind of it was just unexpected, and instead of
29:47
Speaker 7: using force, the individual probably use some kind of coercive technique,
29:51
Speaker 7: whether it was a gun or a weapon or something
29:53
Speaker 7: like that. But there was more coercion, more verbal threats
29:57
Speaker 7: more than there was physical threats.
29:58
Speaker 2: Just Scott Morgan enjoining us for professor forensics. It's not
30:01
Speaker 2: all about fingerprints and fibers. Let's take a look at it.
30:05
Speaker 2: Joe Scott number one, the date of the USA Today paper.
30:10
Speaker 2: Was it her custom to do the crossword in the mornings?
30:14
Speaker 2: Were coffee cup coffee cups sitting out on the kitchen table.
30:20
Speaker 2: Was there a pot of coffee still in the coffee maker?
30:24
Speaker 2: Was there anything in the crock pot where their dishes
30:27
Speaker 2: out from lunch or did it look more like dinner.
30:30
Speaker 2: We know that they didn't show up for the Kentucky
30:32
Speaker 2: Derby party, so that gives us the clue as to
30:36
Speaker 2: the end.
30:37
Speaker 1: They were dead by that time. What else would you
30:41
Speaker 1: look for?
30:41
Speaker 6: Joe Scott well Sheriff Sales, has done the right thing
30:44
Speaker 6: by going to speak with the family, something we do
30:48
Speaker 6: in investigations to just try to get a take a
30:51
Speaker 6: temperature of what their daily routine looks like, and you
30:54
Speaker 6: have to try to understand that and are there any
30:57
Speaker 6: moments in tom that deviate from that normal all those
31:00
Speaker 6: normal behaviors moving forward. I think that also one of
31:06
Speaker 6: the things. And if we believe that there may have
31:11
Speaker 6: been more than one individual involved in this, I think
31:14
Speaker 6: that it would be very important to try to examine
31:17
Speaker 6: any kind of available digital evidence that might be available
31:21
Speaker 6: from back during that time period, as far as phone records,
31:24
Speaker 6: anything that came off of any of the towers back then.
31:27
Speaker 6: I don't know if that's necessarily possible, but it's certainly
31:29
Speaker 6: something that's intriguing. If you've got one person in the yard,
31:33
Speaker 6: perhaps are they communicating with someone else that could facilitate
31:37
Speaker 6: bringing a boat around, Because that's that's the rub, isn't it.
31:41
Speaker 6: You know, how do you get a boat into a
31:43
Speaker 6: location where you're running the risk in broad daylight of
31:47
Speaker 6: people being seen at their dock or their mooring location there?
31:52
Speaker 1: How does this work?
31:53
Speaker 6: So there has to be communication involved in this. I
31:55
Speaker 6: think that's that's certainly something to look at.
31:57
Speaker 2: And of course, you know the Agel question dot miss
32:00
Speaker 2: on dilatory. You really think too or more people could
32:03
Speaker 2: keep this quiet. No way they had to tell a girlfriend,
32:09
Speaker 2: a wife, a co conspirator.
32:11
Speaker 1: There was a reason for this murder. Somebody has to
32:14
Speaker 1: know why, and that leads you to who.
32:17
Speaker 7: Again, it leads me to someone that felt offended by
32:20
Speaker 7: whatever Russell Dermot was doing, whatever it was that he
32:25
Speaker 7: was involved in. Now, this could have been an ex employee,
32:28
Speaker 7: this could have been this could have been anybody.
32:30
Speaker 2: But when you say involved in, wait a minute, that
32:32
Speaker 2: makes it sounds like it's a victim's fault. How do
32:34
Speaker 2: I know it wasn't somebody that broke in and he
32:36
Speaker 2: wouldn't give up the pen number to his checking account
32:39
Speaker 2: or his saving his account. I mean, we did that
32:42
Speaker 2: cause someone to go into a fury, But would they
32:44
Speaker 2: go through the effort of driving up in a boat
32:47
Speaker 2: and decapitating him over a pin number?
32:50
Speaker 6: No, No, absolutely not.
32:51
Speaker 7: This is why I'm saying that this is about something
32:54
Speaker 7: that was going on within the individual that was specifically
32:57
Speaker 7: targeting Russell Dermott or else a. None of this other
33:00
Speaker 7: stuff would need to have happened. I mean that these
33:03
Speaker 7: two individuals are killed in very disparate ways, and they're
33:06
Speaker 7: dumped in very disparate ways, But I think it's purposeful.
33:09
Speaker 7: This was planned from the beginning that this was how
33:12
Speaker 7: things were going to play out, and everything is probably
33:15
Speaker 7: geared towards Russell Derman being sort of the ultimate target
33:19
Speaker 7: of whatever this thing was, given the nature of how
33:23
Speaker 7: his wife was beaten to death and how he necessarily
33:27
Speaker 7: wasn't in.
33:27
Speaker 1: The last days a break in the case.
33:31
Speaker 3: Listen, the case of the double homicide of a beloved
33:33
Speaker 3: couple in a gated community on Lake of Coony goes
33:36
Speaker 3: cold for nearly ten years until Sheriff Howard Siles announces
33:39
Speaker 3: a break in the case. DNA is recovered from Russell
33:42
Speaker 3: Durman's shirt and is sent to a private lab for examination.
33:45
Speaker 3: The private lab confirms the DNA does not belong to
33:48
Speaker 3: Russell or Shirley Durman. Pubman County Sheriff Howard Siles says
33:52
Speaker 3: he believes the DNA is from the person who committed
33:55
Speaker 3: the murder, or at least somebody who is a party
33:57
Speaker 3: to the crime.
34:05
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace, the double.
34:08
Speaker 3: Homicide of Russell and Shirley Dermot rocks their gaty community.
34:11
Speaker 3: Huddnam County Sheriff Howard Sills says, based on the evidence,
34:15
Speaker 3: Russell Drman was murdered elsewhere, but was beheaded in the
34:18
Speaker 3: garage where his body was found. The shriff says the
34:21
Speaker 3: injuries Shirley Drman sustained would have left physical evidence that
34:25
Speaker 3: was not found in the Drman's.
34:26
Speaker 2: Home, nor evidence at the beheading of Russell Dermott occurred
34:31
Speaker 2: there in the home as well. Where were they killed?
34:34
Speaker 2: What was the purpose of bringing their bodies back to
34:36
Speaker 2: that gated community home right on the waterfront of Lake Oconey.
34:41
Speaker 2: We are now hearing about new DNA straight out to
34:45
Speaker 2: the sheriff. Sheriff Howard Sills, where did you discover where
34:49
Speaker 2: was the new DNA.
34:50
Speaker 4: We initially took all of our physical evidence out to Authoram.
34:54
Speaker 4: Authorham did locate and did identified DNA. Further work that
35:00
Speaker 4: needed to be done, and they have referred me to
35:04
Speaker 4: Sarrensen Labs in out in Utah and they have found
35:10
Speaker 4: DNA that they are still working on trying to isolate that.
35:17
Speaker 4: We at least know both Author and Sarnson found DNA
35:24
Speaker 4: that does not belong to Shirley or Russell. Drman and
35:31
Speaker 4: Sarnston is still doing whatever they're doing there, trying to
35:35
Speaker 4: narrow that down enough where we can get it into CODIS.
35:39
Speaker 4: So I reached out to them. Initially, the State Lab
35:43
Speaker 4: said there was no DNA. I'm not being critical of them.
35:46
Speaker 4: I don't know the technology at the time other than
35:49
Speaker 4: the Dermots themselves. But after learning of the good work
35:52
Speaker 4: of Authorm and Sarrens and consulting with the FBI, that's
35:59
Speaker 4: where I decided to take stuff. So we're optimistic that
36:04
Speaker 4: that's going to eventually turn up something here, hopefully pretty soon.
36:08
Speaker 2: Doctor Christen Millman, joining US chief development officer at AUTHRAM,
36:12
Speaker 2: tell me about the discovery of the new Well, it's
36:15
Speaker 2: not really new DNA. It's newly discovered DNA. Where was
36:18
Speaker 2: it and how did you find it?
36:20
Speaker 8: It was on the clothing and I guess how we
36:22
Speaker 8: found it is The sheriff sent the evidence here to
36:27
Speaker 8: see if there was any unknown contributor profile that could
36:31
Speaker 8: be detected that wasn't previously detected. Once that was detected
36:35
Speaker 8: at our lab, we had to follow the interim policy
36:40
Speaker 8: for this type of technology, and that means that any
36:43
Speaker 8: DNA that is found needs to be uploaded to COTIS
36:45
Speaker 8: first and see if there is a hit and CODIS
36:48
Speaker 8: or a match in CODIS. Once there's not a hitt
36:51
Speaker 8: and CODIS, then we can proceed and build a profile.
36:54
Speaker 8: If there is a hitting CODIS, obviously the case can
36:56
Speaker 8: be solved that way. A lot of the times there isn't.
37:00
Speaker 8: If there isn't, then we can proceed and build a
37:02
Speaker 8: profile that has hundreds and hundreds of thousands of markers
37:05
Speaker 8: rather than twenty, and upload that to genealogical databases consented
37:10
Speaker 8: for law enforcement use, allowing us to infer the identity
37:14
Speaker 8: of the perpetrator. And so Sorensen is a traditional forensic
37:18
Speaker 8: lab that can build these CODIS profiles quickly and get
37:22
Speaker 8: them uploaded. That is what's happening now, and if there
37:25
Speaker 8: is a hit, that case can be solved that way.
37:28
Speaker 8: If there is no hit, then we can take over
37:31
Speaker 8: the DNA sample and build one of these genealogical profiles
37:35
Speaker 8: that will help us infer the identity of the person
37:38
Speaker 8: that left DNA at the crime scene. We can't say
37:41
Speaker 8: it's the perpetrator, but we can say someone that left
37:44
Speaker 8: DNA on their body at the crime scene during that
37:48
Speaker 8: time period.
37:49
Speaker 2: The clothes they were wearing at the time they were murdered. Okay,
37:53
Speaker 2: question Dodger Crystal middleman joining us Dodger Middleman when I say,
37:58
Speaker 2: how do you find the DNA on the clothing? Specifically?
38:04
Speaker 2: What do you put it under a microscope? Do you
38:07
Speaker 2: treat it in some way? How do you see what
38:11
Speaker 2: other scientists could not see?
38:14
Speaker 8: Well, DNA techniques should be much the same and standardized,
38:18
Speaker 8: but maybe we took a section of that clothing that
38:20
Speaker 8: was different than sections that had been tested in the past.
38:23
Speaker 8: How forensic testing works is you section different areas of
38:28
Speaker 8: a bedsheet, clothing, anything that might have been found at
38:31
Speaker 8: the crime scene, and then you extract DNA from all
38:34
Speaker 8: of those cuttings and sometimes you're lucky and you actually
38:37
Speaker 8: find a profile that doesn't belong to either one of
38:40
Speaker 8: the victims, and that is what the sheriff is alluding
38:44
Speaker 8: to in this case.
38:45
Speaker 2: Doctor Mintlman, it's amazing to me the work that you
38:49
Speaker 2: do at Authram. You've actually found something that other scientists
38:54
Speaker 2: at the time couldn't see, and it may hold the
38:58
Speaker 2: key to not just a double murder, but the double
39:02
Speaker 2: murder of beloved grandparents, a beheading. And I look at
39:08
Speaker 2: missus Derman to imagine someone tying her body to a
39:14
Speaker 2: cement chunk and throwing her into that cold, dark water.
39:21
Speaker 2: These perps have got to be found and your work
39:24
Speaker 2: may make that happen. If you know, or you even
39:30
Speaker 2: think you know anything about the brutal murders of the Dermans,
39:36
Speaker 2: please call seven zero six four eight five eight five
39:41
Speaker 2: five seven seven zero six four eight five eight five
39:45
Speaker 2: five seven. Now we've got up that there is a
39:48
Speaker 2: twenty five thousand dollars reward, but there is also a
39:52
Speaker 2: commitment for Metropolitan Life Insurance for thirty grand Let's hope
39:59
Speaker 2: we can use it total of fifty five thousand dollars
40:05
Speaker 2: and promised reward for the discovery of information leading to
40:12
Speaker 2: the resolution of this double murder. We stop now and
40:16
Speaker 2: remember American hero police Officer Garrett Crumby, Huntsville, Alabama. Just
40:22
Speaker 2: thirty six. Officer Crumby shot and killed in the line
40:26
Speaker 2: of duty. Survived by grieving wife Taylor, loving parents William
40:31
Speaker 2: and Janet, two dogs and two cats, four furry children.
40:37
Speaker 2: American hero police Officer Garrett Crumby. Thank you to our
40:42
Speaker 2: guests for being with us, especially to doctor Kristen Middleman
40:46
Speaker 2: from off Raum Labs, and of course to Sheriff Howard Stills,
40:51
Speaker 2: still on the case there in Putnam County.
40:54
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace signing off, goodbye friend,