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Monday Mini: Anticipatory Grief · Stuff Mom Never Told You

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: I'm holcome to stuff. I ever told you your production
• 0:08
  Speaker 2: of iHeart Radio?
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: Okay, Annie, have you had one of those moments where
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: you start daydreaming and then start thinking of like the
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: worst case scenario in those day dreams, and then with that,
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  Speaker 1: there's some tragic event that happens in your mind and
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  Speaker 1: you start actually mourning something that really hasn't even happened.
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: I do do that, and I understand how it can
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: make things slip slip your mind. I do it pretty often.
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: I actually think I do it kind of like once
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: a day where I just start thinking, like, I know
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  Speaker 2: I'm gonna have to deal with this one day, and
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  Speaker 2: I know it's gonna be miserable. I really don't want
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: to deal with it. And then I feel bad because
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: in this case, I'm talking about my mom currently, I'm like,
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: you could just call her, like you're spending all this
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  Speaker 2: time anticipating not having her and yet yeah calling her
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  Speaker 2: right right. It's kind of a I mean, it's more
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  Speaker 2: complicated than that, but it is kind of a strange
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  Speaker 2: grief guilt spiral.
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  Speaker 1: Mm hmmm. Actually, you were talking to about a lot
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  Speaker 1: of the things that I want to jump into and
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  Speaker 1: I'm very rushing, not very I guess I'm not because
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: I don't want to say I'm very excited or very
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  Speaker 1: like enthusiastic like that, not at all, because this is
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: something that I think about and it hurts my heart,
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: and I will say go ahead and put this content. Warning,
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: we are talking about death and grief and there's a
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  Speaker 1: lot to talk about, especially if you've dealt with death
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: death recently. If you're a caregiver of someone who is sick,
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: someone with any terminal illnesses, this is going to be
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: This could be a little hard, this can't this will
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: probably hard, I don't know, but just let you know.
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: And if you need to take some time and be like,
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  Speaker 1: I'll come back to this completely understand. Do that for yourself,
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: because yeah, I had this moment of like, so when
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: my first dog, Bennington Zigler, Yes I named him Bennington Sigler,
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: his name from his previous owner who had died, and yeah,
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: that make puts me in to whole it for the
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: spiral had named him Benny, and of course I wasn't
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  Speaker 1: going to change his name because he was a senior dog.
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: I think I was like nine or ten when I
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: adopted him, so I wasn't going to change his name,
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: but I was gonna add to it, give my own
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  Speaker 1: lil flair. So his name was Bennington Zigler. When he died,
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: I had a really hard time with it. And sometimes
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: I start feeling really, really anxious about the death of
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  Speaker 1: my current dog, Peaches. She is now ten, and she's
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: perfectly healthy. I'm gonna put that out there, but for
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: some reason, as I see her hairs turning a bit
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: whiter and having some eights and pains, like you know,
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: when she gets off the couch, she kind of like
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: limps a little bit to shake it off. This has
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: been new. I started really imagining what the end might
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: be with her and immediately start crying, Like my partner
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: has come in when I'm hugging my dog and bawling,
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: and he's like, what's happening, what's happening?
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  Speaker 2: Are you okay?
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  Speaker 1: And I'm like, I'm just imagining what it would be
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  Speaker 1: like if she dies. When she dies, and I am
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: it's a constant. It's a constant in my head. And
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  Speaker 1: because I had such a hard time when Biddy died,
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: there's a whole lot of things to that, and honestly,
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  Speaker 1: Like I had her for a good three years, so
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: it wasn't long because he already had health issues, Like
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: I adopted a senior dog with lots of healthy issues,
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: but he lived a lot longer than people thought, so
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: I got attached very quickly. But when he died, I
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  Speaker 1: was a mess for years. And I still am like
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: tearing up as I'm talking about him. That's how much
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: of attachment I have. And it took me years to
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  Speaker 1: get a new dog or another dog because I was
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  Speaker 1: just in so much like I can't I can't replace him.
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  Speaker 1: I can't go through this again, like all of those things.
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  Speaker 1: So as she is getting older and I've had her
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  Speaker 1: for nine years now, so like there's nothing that I like.
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: I take her to the doctor every year, get all
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  Speaker 1: the checkouts, do all the extra things. Right now, she's
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  Speaker 1: in perfect health, so there's no reason other than the
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  Speaker 1: fact that I'm watching her age and just have this
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  Speaker 1: whole trauma of losing my dog previously, which is nature.
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  Speaker 1: Of course, this is nothing new, and I'm not the
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  Speaker 1: only one that goes through this. In fact, this is
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  Speaker 1: called anticipatory grief, and many, if not all, people I'm
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  Speaker 1: gonna put that blanket statement out experience. This from veryhealth
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  Speaker 1: dot Com. They say anticipatory grief is a state of deep,
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  Speaker 1: painful sorrow that occurs before and impending loss. It can
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  Speaker 1: affect people facing the impending death of a loved one
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  Speaker 1: or their own death. Which I have that I dream
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  Speaker 1: of my own death or not, I guess a daydream
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: of my own death. I've dreamed it. Actually, I've dreamed
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  Speaker 1: about my death too.
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  Speaker 2: I worry that I'll die before my mom does, which,
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: by the way, I just want to say, my mom
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  Speaker 2: is also in good health, so she knows. She's much
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: better than me about like getting things checked out. But
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: I'm worried that I'll die first, and not because just
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: because I know how much that would hurt.
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  Speaker 1: Her, right, yeah, right, And I think about that too,
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  Speaker 1: So the article continues. Anticipatory grief is defined as grief
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  Speaker 1: that occurs before a loss. The term is often used
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  Speaker 1: in the context of death, but can encompass the impending
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  Speaker 1: loss of things not related to death. Anticipatory grief is
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  Speaker 1: common both among caregivers and those being cared for, often
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: occurring simultaneously. Anticipatory grief is more than just normal grieving
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  Speaker 1: that starts early so it's a thing. Many people have
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  Speaker 1: dealt with this, counselors deal with this, and everybody talks
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  Speaker 1: about it. It's just not often named. I know, sometimes
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  Speaker 1: I feel like I'm doing too much or being dramatic
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  Speaker 1: when i feel these ways, but it's very common. Interestingly,
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  Speaker 1: according to the article, which by the way, is titled
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  Speaker 1: what is Anticipatory Grief? Written by doctor Lynnete Eldridge, they
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: state that younger people are more affected. It says younger
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  Speaker 1: people tend to experience anticipatory grief more often and more traumatically,
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: in part because they have experienced lost less often than
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  Speaker 1: an older person and may have a more conceptual view
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  Speaker 1: of death. So in one of the ways they are
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  Speaker 1: talking about like they see death as the final end,
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  Speaker 1: and so the final end seems so scary and doomish
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  Speaker 1: that they will may have it more traumatically, which I
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  Speaker 1: don't know if we all feel that. Don't get me wrong,
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  Speaker 1: of course, the reasons for anticipatory grief is different for everyone.
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  Speaker 1: I've had many conversations with my friends who have parents
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  Speaker 1: who are getting older talking about the fear of losing
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  Speaker 1: a parent as well. So what you were just talking
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  Speaker 1: about with you with your mom. But like when we
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: see things that have like health scares, which are more
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  Speaker 1: commonly happening to older people, that really puts us in
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  Speaker 1: a moment of like trauma, a traumatic response of waiting
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: and thinking the worst case scenario, which is what I
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  Speaker 1: do often. And like, my father just went through a
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  Speaker 1: health scare and we're on the other end of it.
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  Speaker 1: But at the beginning, I was spiraling, spiraling to the
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: point that I would see my father every week, and
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  Speaker 1: that was not something that I do, kind of like
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  Speaker 1: just in case moment, which is awful, which is awful
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  Speaker 1: because it shouldn't be like that. But we talked about
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  Speaker 1: this and for those who have already had to grieve
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  Speaker 1: one parent or someone that are parental figures or very
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  Speaker 1: close to them in family or just in life, are
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  Speaker 1: often traumatized by the experience and also have to work
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  Speaker 1: through their anticipatory grief in a different setting. So having
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  Speaker 1: lost one is so easy to be scared or you're
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  Speaker 1: so traumatized and triggered and scared for your other people
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  Speaker 1: as well in your life. So it can be more
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  Speaker 1: on that note, And there's a difference between anticipatory grief
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  Speaker 1: and grief after death from adorationhealth dot Com. They write,
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  Speaker 1: while anticipatory grief is very similar to grief after death,
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  Speaker 1: there could also be a lot of differences in the experience.
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  Speaker 1: In grief after death, you are facing a loss that
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  Speaker 1: has already occurred and must figure out how you're going
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  Speaker 1: to move forward in your new reality. In anticipatory grief,
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  Speaker 1: you know you will have to face this loss at
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  Speaker 1: some point in the future, but you can't know for
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  Speaker 1: sure when it will occur. You're in sort of and
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  Speaker 1: in between state where your loved one is still there,
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  Speaker 1: but you know your time with them may be limited.
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  Speaker 1: This feeling can be more severe for some because you're
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  Speaker 1: trying to wrap your head around the idea of life
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  Speaker 1: without this person while they're still here. And again, that conversation,
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  Speaker 1: especially for those who are caretakers for terminally ill or
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  Speaker 1: elderly parents, is different because you're having to actually go
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  Speaker 1: back and forth with it and having to make plans.
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  Speaker 1: Even like I think you were talking about it, my
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  Speaker 1: partner is going through it. I'm sure I'll have a
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  Speaker 1: conversation with my parents, but I'm the youngest, so it
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  Speaker 1: might be different. But the parents or the older generations
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  Speaker 1: getting ready as well, and so having to prep you
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  Speaker 1: for the aftermath, and that's really hard to think on.
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  Speaker 2: It is, I mean, and it's so important. I'm a
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  Speaker 2: big believer in it because I have been with people
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  Speaker 2: who someone has died and they didn't talk about any
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  Speaker 2: of that. But it is painful because it's like acknowledging
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  Speaker 2: often in like tangible here's the will, here's like getting
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  Speaker 2: rid of this stuff already in the house, here's what
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  Speaker 2: I want you to do. It's just like a kind
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  Speaker 2: of having a very tangible Okay, I am going to
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  Speaker 2: have to deal with this one.
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  Speaker 1: Day, right, And it's even harder for those who are
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  Speaker 1: the responsible ones. Again, I'm the youngest of I don't
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  Speaker 1: have that, which I'm grateful for. But you know, my
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  Speaker 1: partner and yourself are the responsible one of the family.
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  Speaker 2: Mm hmmmm.
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  Speaker 1: So it makes it a little different, especially when it's
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  Speaker 1: constantly brought up to you just a whole thing.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, look, not to get into I won't. But
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  Speaker 2: also I've talked about before, I don't have the best
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  Speaker 2: relationship with my brothers, so I'm also anticipating that, yeah,
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  Speaker 2: making it more difficult. Yeah, Yeah, it's just a lot.
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  Speaker 2: It's a lot to think about.
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  Speaker 1: It is. It is a lot And back to that
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  Speaker 1: very well helped dot Com article, they write an discipatory
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  Speaker 1: grief is sometimes described as a rollercoaster because you can
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: shift back and forth between feelings of distress for several
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: days and feelings of normalcy for several days. There may
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: also be a part of you clinging to the hope
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: that the diagnosis is wrong, booying you at one moment
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: and triggering intense anxiety at another. With conventional grief, your
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: emotions and actions are reactive. With anticipatory grief, your emotions
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  Speaker 1: and actions are largely proactive. So there's definitely that roller coaster.
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  Speaker 1: And again, this is a lot more like talking about
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  Speaker 1: working with people as a caretaker, watching people getting to
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  Speaker 1: that point or wondering if it's coming. So a lot
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  Speaker 1: of that has that moment, especially, and you talked about
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  Speaker 1: the fact that you feel guilty when you do have
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: a normal day if something does feel wrong, Like it's
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  Speaker 1: just so many different levels to that conversation because you're grieving.
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  Speaker 1: But are you allowed to smile when you're grieving? You know?
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  Speaker 1: And if you're with someone who is sick and not healthy,
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  Speaker 1: are you supposed to be grieving? But you're you know,
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  Speaker 1: like so many things, so one of the biggest group
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  Speaker 1: of people that are affected by this type of grief. Again,
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  Speaker 1: if we said our caregiver verse, and with the fact
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: that women make up like eighty one percent of being
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  Speaker 1: caregivers for older people, and this is according to Commonwealth Fund,
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  Speaker 1: it shouldn't be surprising women are more likely to experience
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: this type of anticipatory grief. And in fact, they talked
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: about also how a lot of the women, I think
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  Speaker 1: like forty percent that one survey showed of women was
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: really really struggling with this anticipatory grief, especially like they
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: were I think caregivers of terminal cancer family members, and
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: that anticipatory grief really weighing so heavily on them that
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: that was more stifling than those who was going through
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: the grief at times. That makes sense, meaning like because
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: the waiting and holding on and just the anticipation or
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: the fear of losing that person becomes more overwhelming sometimes
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: and how a lot of these women really feel like
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  Speaker 1: this is that was so much harder than the actual loss.
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: Well, I think another thing too is I uh, one
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  Speaker 2: of my friend's dad died pretty suddenly and his mom
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: had largely been taken care of, like he was ill,
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: but it wasn't like he's going to die any day
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: like but anyway, she he had a pretty strict diet,
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: and she gave him like kind of a sort of gumbo,
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  Speaker 2: and he died the next day, and I just remember
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  Speaker 2: her thinking like if I hadn't given him the gumbo,
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: like having that, Like I think when you're in that
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  Speaker 2: anticipatory stage, you're you're thinking like, oh, maybe I can
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  Speaker 2: fix this, or if I do something wrong, like I
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: can maybe I can make this better. And then once
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  Speaker 2: once the person is gone, you don't have that anymore.
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  Speaker 2: But I do think that's a unique part of the
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  Speaker 2: anticipatory part, is like you were thinking maybe if I
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: do this, maybe if I do this, and then afterwards
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  Speaker 2: you might still have those questions, but it doesn't have
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: the same like unknown that's a weighing on you.
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  Speaker 1: Right right for sure. And there's a lot in that
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: conversation about the guilt and in this and that as
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: I one of the symptoms, so here are and I didn't.
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: There's like tons obviously there's tons single worded how you're
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: feeling all these different ones. A couple of them are anxiety, guilt, dread,
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  Speaker 1: and worry. Obviously one of them is the rehearsal of death.
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  Speaker 1: And again this is from the very well minded, and
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: I think, yeah, I definitely think of this. You may
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: be visualizing what it will be like without your loved one.
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: If you are dying, you may be imagining how your
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: loved ones will carry on without you. Again, you might
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: not be sick. That person or that pet may not
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: be sick, but you're still imagining this because you're anticipating
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: all of this, and it becomes Sometimes it can be
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: overwhelming and you do it too often. I say this again,
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: this applies to pet owners like myself from APLB dot org,
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: which I think they're like a therapy thing for pet
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: owners and also like works with pets. I don't know anyway.
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: It says while anticipatory grief commonly occurs when faced with
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: the news of serious illness, terminal diagnosis, or the realization
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: that your pet is in significant decline, it may also
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: be experienced as early as the first signs of aging.
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: Christie Lehman MSWLSW shares that changes related to advancing age
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: may represent a series of many losses as time goes on.
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: For example, as the dog ages and her arthritis worsens,
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: she may one day no longer be able to go
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: for her daily walk, climb stairs, or chase the ball.
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: As pets age, the changes and activities of daily living
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: represent endings. They remind us that our pets end of
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: life is drawing nearer. We grieve each of these various
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: losses along the way, ultimately leading to the day when
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: we realize that we will soon be saying goodbye. It
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: is heartbreaking. Anticipatory grief will be felt more deeply in
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: those highly bonded with their pets. Additionally, anticipatory grief may
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: be experienced more profoundly with caregivers whose pets share links, connections,
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: or memories to other people or animals that have died
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: the thought of losing their present pet may feel like
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: losing that person or pet all over again, compounding the
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: anticipatory grief reactions. I am sad right now. Yeah, but
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: all of those things are very real. And again, like
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: I'm talking about pets, but we know this is common
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: for anything. Loss is loss, and it's hard, especially when
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: you're attached or that's a part of your daily routine.
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: There's so much to this and I think we're like,
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: I'm glad to know I'm not the only one, but
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: I still don't want to experience it. And just so
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: you know, they also have from very well minded some
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: maybe benefits of having this. One is that they are
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: able to confront their fears rather than avoid them. Another
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: is being able to say goodbye if you do get
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: that chance. Another was to make preparations for their life
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: moving forward. So all of these things can be benefits,
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: but it's still not great. We don't want it, would
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: rather not, We would rather not. Let's be way Let's
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: be way way clear on that. So how are some
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: ways to cope with that? Because you know, we always
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: got to end with something at least like let's help
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: out here, share your feelings openly. I think like again
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: having more conversations, although when people get too open and
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: tell me too many details, I started freaking out a
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: little bit. I will say Reddit, there was a Reddit
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: post where someone came in and was talking about that
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: and like, I feel this way, my pet is perfectly healthy,
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: but I'm really sad. And then all these people came
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: in giving such great advice, geting heart warming stories a
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: little too close to like being too real talking about Yeah,
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: I just lost my pet yesterday, so I'm like, ah,
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: I can't read all these things, but the community in
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: that specific post was really sweet and really kind and
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: getting caring, so that was nice to see. They also
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: say maintain hope and yeah, like if you can sometimes
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: getting in the right head to actually get things prepared
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: that can be helpful. One from kinship dot com about
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: pet lifestyle. It says let your grief come, let cry
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: if you can, and it talks about also if you
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: have a grieving friend, to listen and to be there
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: for them. So there's a lot. Thank you for going
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: down this sad, sad journey with me, and I'm sorry
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: to put this in, but it's been on my mind
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: lately because I will say, bursting out crying every now
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: and then when I look at my pet. Not a
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: fun hobby.
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: No, it's it's tough. It really is. It really is. Well,
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: certainly a lot more we could talk about with this.
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: Sure listeners have some thoughts about this, because yeah, I
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: think everybody experiences it.
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: Uh.
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: If you would like to contact us, you can. You
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: can email us at Stephane amount of Stuff at I
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: hurtnea dot com or Hello at stuffwomnevertold you dot com.
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: You can find us on Blue Sky, at momsa podcast,
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: or on Instagram and tiktoks and stuff when Told You.
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: We have a YouTube page, we have a tea public store,
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: and we have a book you can get wherever you
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: get your books. Thanks as always too, our super producer,
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: Senior executive producer, my anti contributor Joey, Thank you and
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: thanks to you for listening. Steffan Never Told You is
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: production of by Heart Radio. For more podcast my heart Radio,
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: you can check out the heart Radio app, Apple podcast
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: or where we listen to your favorite shows