Latest / The You Project / #2239 The Resurrection of 982 - Professor Munjed Al Muderis

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#2239 The Resurrection of 982 - Professor Munjed Al Muderis · The You Project

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: G'day team, welcome to another installment of the You Project.
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: It's Harps. Of course it is. Who else would it be?
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  Speaker 2: It's a Monday morning as we're recording this. It's 9.33
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  Speaker 2: in the thriving metropolis of Hampton in the locale of
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  Speaker 2: Melbourne down the bottom of Australia. I'm talking to somebody
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  Speaker 2: who has spent lots of time in Australia but is
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  Speaker 2: currently not here. He's elsewhere, Professor Mungid Al-Madiras. Welcome to
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: the You Project. How are you, sir?
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  Speaker 3: I'm good, thank you. Thanks very much for having me.
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  Speaker 2: Where do we find you? And I don't mean philosophically
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  Speaker 2: or esoterically. I mean geographically.
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  Speaker 3: Geographically, I'm all over the place.
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  Speaker 4: At the moment, I'm in Florida, but I have international
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  Speaker 4: practice where we have bases in– in Warsaw, in Poland.
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  Speaker 4: I'm heading to Istanbul where we have a clinic over
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  Speaker 4: there and there is a clinic in Abu Dhabi. We
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  Speaker 4: are opening a center in Shanghai in China and potentially Malaysia.
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  Speaker 4: And we have another location in Medellin in Colombia. And
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  Speaker 4: of course, my practice is still going in Sydney, Australia.
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  Speaker 4: But I haven't been to Australia for the last year
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  Speaker 4: due to many commitments. My base at the moment is
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  Speaker 4: in Florida, in South Florida, just 100K away from Miami,
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  Speaker 4: where it's called Palm Beach.
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  Speaker 2: I would be exhausted if I was you. How on
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  Speaker 2: earth do you even have time to do this?
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  Speaker 1: How do you stay focused? How do you have energy
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  Speaker 1: for anything?
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  Speaker 3: You get used to it.
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  Speaker 4: You build the stamina as you go, and it becomes
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  Speaker 4: second nature. So I believe that there are not enough
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  Speaker 4: hours in the day, so I usually– my day is
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  Speaker 4: usually 72 hours, so I keep going.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. How good or bad are you at delegating or
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  Speaker 2: trusting others with things that you would rather do?
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  Speaker 4: This is a very important question because there are different
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  Speaker 4: kind of types of leadership skills or management skills, and
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  Speaker 4: one of them is– to delegate and the other one
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  Speaker 4: is to micromanage.
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  Speaker 3: We had this conversation with my partner yesterday, Dr.
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  Speaker 4: Troll Paley, who brought me here to America, and he's
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  Speaker 4: kind of a hands-on managing. I'm more of a delegator
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  Speaker 4: for the aspects that can be managed by other people.
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  Speaker 4: When it comes to the handiwork, the surgical interaction, the
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  Speaker 4: decision making and the surgical planning and the post-operative care,
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  Speaker 4: I do it myself. But when it comes to the
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  Speaker 4: administrative side of things, the financial aspects and many other
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  Speaker 4: kind of mundane tasks, I tend to delegate them. And
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  Speaker 4: that way you can focus and concentrate on what you're
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  Speaker 4: good at, which is delivering.
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  Speaker 3: The surgical expertise and skills.
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  Speaker 2: I'm sure the answer to this is probably more than
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  Speaker 2: one thing, but what's the driver?
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  Speaker 1: What's the reason? Like what's the compelling force in your life?
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  Speaker 3: I think to make a difference, I do believe in
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  Speaker 3: what I do.
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  Speaker 4: And I created and developed a revolutionary technology that changed
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  Speaker 4: the management of MPTs or rehabilitation of MPTs from a
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  Speaker 4: technology that's been there for 600 years. And I'm a
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  Speaker 4: strong believer that this technology should be the standard of
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  Speaker 4: care We have gone through hell and came back from
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  Speaker 4: it trying to prove this technology and I can comfortably
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  Speaker 4: say that I managed to succeed. The NHS just approved
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  Speaker 4: it as a standard of care. The United States have
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  Speaker 4: approved it. australia has approved it on the medical side
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  Speaker 4: of things but um there has been skeptics from the
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  Speaker 4: media side of things sadly.
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  Speaker 3: Um but um.
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  Speaker 4: The medical fraternity have approved it so um and it's
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  Speaker 4: widely approved in europe now so um I want to
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  Speaker 4: make sure that before the day comes that I pass
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  Speaker 4: this technology be available to people who need it most,
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  Speaker 4: people who cannot afford it in developing countries, and it
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  Speaker 4: will be widely acceptable and widely used.
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  Speaker 2: And for those of us who are not surgeons, which
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  Speaker 2: is all of us except you on the call, what
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  Speaker 2: is the technology?
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  Speaker 4: So the technology is called osseointegration surgery for MPTs. It's
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  Speaker 4: basically inserting a highly tensile strength titanium implant into the
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  Speaker 4: residual limb of a person that have lost a limb,
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  Speaker 4: often an above knee or a below knee MPT or
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  Speaker 4: an arm MPT. and connecting it through a small opening
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  Speaker 4: in the skin to a prosthetic limb. Often it's my
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  Speaker 4: electric prosthesis or robotic leg or arm, and then allowing
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  Speaker 4: the brain to control it. So it is from... science
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  Speaker 4: fiction if you want to call it to many but
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  Speaker 4: it is a technology that can be applicable to people
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  Speaker 4: and allow direct attachment to the skeleton and by that
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  Speaker 4: you will have much less energy loss and the easiest
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  Speaker 4: way to compare it is a steam engine to a
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  Speaker 4: Tesla and where there is no loss of energy. With
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  Speaker 4: a steam engine, which is a socket-mounted prosthesis, 90% of
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  Speaker 4: the energy is lost in heat and waste. While with
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  Speaker 4: this one, it's a direct attachment where the forces and
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  Speaker 4: the torque is transmitted directly to the wheels, i.e.
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  Speaker 3: The leg of the patient or the arm.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah.
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  Speaker 2: And so... I'm imagining the development of this and the
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  Speaker 2: creation of this and then the fruition of this. It's
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  Speaker 2: like an integration of technology and neurology and engineering and
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  Speaker 2: a million other variables. I mean, this is not one bloke.
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  Speaker 2: This is a team of people, right? Obviously, you're the
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  Speaker 2: captain of the ship, but bringing together all of those
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  Speaker 2: people with all of those different areas of expertise to
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  Speaker 2: make this one thing That's this integration of other things.
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  Speaker 1: How did we do that?
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  Speaker 3: That's very true and very correct.
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  Speaker 4: And well, and it goes beyond that because now, I mean,
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  Speaker 4: I can show you this device that I'm carrying here
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  Speaker 4: has more information than the entire CIA headquarters in the 60s. OK,
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  Speaker 4: and and science have moved forward. so fast um to
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  Speaker 4: develop this technology and and make it microscopic okay yeah
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  Speaker 4: unfortunately in medicine we still practice things that we have
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  Speaker 4: been doing in the 50s um but that's because there
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  Speaker 4: is a lot of red tape there is a lot
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  Speaker 4: of regulatory processes that you have to go through so
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  Speaker 4: this is the biggest hurdle when you come up with
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  Speaker 4: a new technology and we you with a new invention
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  Speaker 4: you In the medical field, there is a lot of
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  Speaker 4: red tape.
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  Speaker 3: And I learned that very early on is.
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  Speaker 4: That you need to go through the regulatory process and
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  Speaker 4: navigate through that process by overcoming the hurdles with number one,
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  Speaker 4: study the technology very well. So try to find an
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  Speaker 4: applicable comparative procedure that you can link it to and
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  Speaker 4: then try to make every single case you do as
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  Speaker 4: a case study, document everything very well, surround yourself with
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  Speaker 4: people who are like-minded that can be accepting difference because
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  Speaker 4: a lot of the time difference means bad, okay, and
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  Speaker 4: change means bad. to the commoners and then try to
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  Speaker 4: present your results and with full consent process with the
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  Speaker 4: people that you have invested time in helping By properly
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  Speaker 4: educating them and then you go through the process and
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  Speaker 4: then you ask for acceptance from the fraternity. And very important,
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  Speaker 4: you need to be prepared that you will get hits
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  Speaker 4: and the hits can kill you. And so it's like
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  Speaker 4: with anything, many people have lived and died without seeing
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  Speaker 4: the light of their work. And there are several examples.
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  Speaker 4: The time is not enough for us to discuss these examples.
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  Speaker 4: And similar in the medical field, many people have lived
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  Speaker 4: and died and didn't see the results of their work.
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  Speaker 4: And people have, um you know um recognized them years
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  Speaker 4: after they they've gone away um so history is very
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  Speaker 4: important learning from history applying it to the to the
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  Speaker 4: present and building the future through it that's that's these
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  Speaker 4: are the things that it's not philosophical it's just application
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  Speaker 4: of what you learn into real life.
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  Speaker 2: And it's just the practical reality of navigating a system
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  Speaker 2: that is behind what's happening or what's possible right now.
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  Speaker 2: I think I remember I did so many of these,
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  Speaker 2: I can't remember who I was chatting to, but recently
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  Speaker 2: we were talking about even the first surgeon who started
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  Speaker 2: to recommend to people that they wash their hands.
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  Speaker 3: Yes, he was crucified.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, he was ridiculed. I think he eventually ended up
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  Speaker 2: being put in an asylum. Even though he showed the
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  Speaker 2: data from his work and how many women weren't dying,
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  Speaker 2: because I think they were all women patients in this hospital,
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  Speaker 2: it was an amazing contrast and incredible outcomes he was producing.
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  Speaker 2: But despite the evidence, yeah, they still crucified him, as
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  Speaker 2: you said.
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  Speaker 4: The first person that did a heart transplant, he did
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  Speaker 4: it on a weekend on a patient who And he
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  Speaker 4: was sacked on Monday because he did it and the
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  Speaker 4: patient survived. They had to bring him back to look
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  Speaker 4: after the patient. So these are the things that people
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  Speaker 4: had to go through in order to. So I learned
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  Speaker 4: from the historical evidence of how people have navigated their
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  Speaker 4: way through innovation and what they could face. And I
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  Speaker 4: chose that path. It's not an easy path. It's a
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  Speaker 4: path riddled with glory, but at the same time with joy.
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  Speaker 4: creating a massive target on your chest by many adversaries,
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  Speaker 4: including your colleagues and including the organizations that you work
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  Speaker 4: in because nobody wants to ruffle the feathers. Everybody, you
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  Speaker 4: go to a hospital, they don't care if you have
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  Speaker 4: an innovative technology. All what they care about is the
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  Speaker 4: bottom line and they just want to make money. And
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  Speaker 4: rightfully so, there is nothing wrong about it. They just
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  Speaker 4: want to do hip and knees, hip replacement, knee replacement.
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  Speaker 4: If I was a hip and knee replacement surgeon, everybody
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  Speaker 4: will leave me alone.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, that is true.
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  Speaker 2: And also when a particular group, whatever the group is,
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  Speaker 2: but let's call it a medical group at the moment,
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  Speaker 2: but when they think a certain way or they operate
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  Speaker 2: a certain way or live within a certain paradigm, you know,
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  Speaker 2: that becomes their identity. This is how these things work.
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  Speaker 2: This is how we treat this. This is how we
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  Speaker 2: do that. And they've been doing that thing that way
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  Speaker 2: for 20 or 30 years.
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  Speaker 1: And then you come along and say, Hey.
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  Speaker 2: What about this?
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  Speaker 1: Correct.
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  Speaker 2: Which would mean they would have to question their own
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  Speaker 2: wisdom or protocol or, and which means you're almost challenging
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  Speaker 2: their identity because what they know is intertwined with, or
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  Speaker 2: what they think they know is intertwined with their identity.
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  Speaker 4: And So I give lectures to medical students and it
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  Speaker 4: happened on two occasions where I gave lectures after a
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  Speaker 4: gentleman who was like in the, you can say it,
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  Speaker 4: part of the hierarchy and part of the.
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  Speaker 3: Traditional model.
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  Speaker 4: And his message to the audience was fly under the radar,
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  Speaker 4: don't ruffle any feathers, and basically do it by the book.
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  Speaker 4: Number one, if you fly under the radar, you would
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  Speaker 4: never see anything. Number two, if you don't ruffle any feathers,
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  Speaker 4: you will never fly. And number three, if you do
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  Speaker 4: it by the book, well, the book has been written
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  Speaker 4: 100 years ago.
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  Speaker 2: Yes.
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  Speaker 4: So how can you progress with medicine? How can you
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  Speaker 4: progress with technology? And I strongly believe that it's the duty–
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  Speaker 4: that we have as clinicians and as scientists that we
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  Speaker 4: need to continue evolution and continue development of medicine. Because
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  Speaker 4: if we stay stagnant, then we will be surpassed by
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  Speaker 4: the smartness of bacteria and the smartness of diseases that
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  Speaker 4: would overcome us and kill us.
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  Speaker 2: Wow.
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  Speaker 4: Wow.
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  Speaker 2: That is a very profound thing to say. Yeah, the
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  Speaker 2: problem with scientists in inverted commas is they're all humans.
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  Speaker 2: We're all humans.
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  Speaker 1: You know, it's like, yeah. And with each, every one
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  Speaker 1: of us.
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  Speaker 2: Has got an ego and certain beliefs and ideas and
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  Speaker 2: identity and all of that. And it's not just the
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  Speaker 2: data and the information and the truth of the science.
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  Speaker 2: It's all the culture and the groupthink. That's your real problem,
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  Speaker 2: isn't it? It's like just trying to open that door
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  Speaker 2: just to go, I'm not trying to destroy your brand
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  Speaker 2: or credibility or your identity, but could you have a
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  Speaker 2: look at this with.
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  Speaker 1: An open mind?
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  Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely.
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  Speaker 4: I mean, when Yuri Gagarin went to outer space, the
• 15:01
  Speaker 4: only person that was before him was a dog, was Laika,
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  Speaker 4: and she died.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, right.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah. Okay. So she was burned and on the way
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  Speaker 4: returning back. So there you go. But they chose to go.
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  Speaker 2: I just want to jump back a little bit. I
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  Speaker 2: realized I didn't even introduce you properly, but I don't
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  Speaker 2: want to read a bio. I don't want to read
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  Speaker 2: a bio. Could you give my listeners a little bit
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  Speaker 2: of an insight into your background, where you grew up,
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  Speaker 2: and maybe a bit of a genesis into where you
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  Speaker 2: are now?
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  Speaker 4: Well, basically, I was born in Iraq. I am a refugee.
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  Speaker 4: I'm an asylum seeker. I landed in Australia.
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  Speaker 3: I don't know. I don't have an identity. I believe
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  Speaker 3: that I belong to Iraq.
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  Speaker 4: The human race because when when i go to iraq
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  Speaker 4: they say you're australian in australia i've never been accepted
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  Speaker 4: as australian always get get told go back where you
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  Speaker 4: come from despite that i became the new south wales
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  Speaker 4: australian of the year in 2020 um now i'm in
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  Speaker 4: america people look at me as someone who's different but
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  Speaker 4: i must admit americans are Very nice people. They are
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  Speaker 4: much more welcoming people, surprisingly. And so... After spending a
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  Speaker 4: year in detention center, I was called 982. I was released,
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  Speaker 4: and then I managed to climb the ladder, recognize my qualification,
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  Speaker 4: and became an orthopedic surgeon. And then I pursued my
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  Speaker 4: dream of making this technology functional and available to people,
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  Speaker 4: and I did that.
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  Speaker 3: And I went through.
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  Speaker 4: Progression in developing this technology in Australia, got the accolades
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  Speaker 4: and then got the hits and, um, but survived. Um,
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  Speaker 4: and then I got, um, uh, basically offers from the
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  Speaker 4: United States, from the biggest limb reconstruction center in the
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  Speaker 4: world with, um, with the leadership of Drew Paley, who's
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  Speaker 4: the founder of the Modern Deformity Correction in the world.
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  Speaker 4: He's a pioneer himself, and he took basically the Elizarov
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  Speaker 4: technique from the Soviet Union, from Kurgan, from Elizarov, and
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  Speaker 4: took it to the rest of the world and built
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  Speaker 4: it from there.
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  Speaker 3: So he said to me, why bother staying in Australia?
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  Speaker 3: Just come here.
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  Speaker 4: There's a huge future in America, and if you want
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  Speaker 4: any technology to be successful, It has to be in America,
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  Speaker 4: which is sadly true because.
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  Speaker 3: The way things in America, they.
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  Speaker 4: Have the power, they have the manpower, and they have
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  Speaker 4: the appetite to take things to the next level.
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  Speaker 2: Now, I know you've written two books, but I've got
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: an idea of a title for your third book.
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  Speaker 3: Are you ready? Yes, go for it because let's see.
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  Speaker 2: If it matches my title.
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  Speaker 1: Okay. If you use this, I want 1% royalties, right?
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  Speaker 4: Sure.
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  Speaker 2: So your next book, it's going to be somewhat autobiographical.
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  Speaker 2: It's going to be called The Evolution of 982.
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  Speaker 3: That's a very good idea.
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  Speaker 4: Usually, unless you pay for the book, usually the publisher
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  Speaker 4: decides the name, but that's a very good name.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, that would be because it's like there's no book
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  Speaker 2: called that. It's like, oh, what is that even about?
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  Speaker 2: Because that's such an amazing transition from being identified as
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  Speaker 2: a number, really, to, I mean, does that, do you
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  Speaker 2: remember that version of you, 982? Does that?
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  Speaker 3: Very well.
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  Speaker 4: It is very well printed in my memory and I
• 19:04
  Speaker 4: would never forget it.
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  Speaker 1: It's amazing.
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  Speaker 4: It's a sad story that human beings continue to repeat
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  Speaker 4: the same thing over and over again and forget what
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  Speaker 4: their predecessors have done in the past. Yes.
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  Speaker 2: What do you, I mean, obviously, well, I don't know,
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  Speaker 2: I might be surprised, but without dwelling on this, what memories,
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  Speaker 2: what specific memories do you have of being in that
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  Speaker 2: place for 12 months?
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  Speaker 4: Well, the biggest thing is, I mean, I can tell
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  Speaker 4: you a few snapshots.
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  Speaker 3: 92 is a big deal.
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  Speaker 4: It's like when you're marked with a permanent marker on
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  Speaker 4: your shoulder with a number and that become your identity
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  Speaker 4: that is a huge insult to being a human being
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  Speaker 4: and it was deliberate act um yeah and it's not
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  Speaker 4: justifiable and it's it's It's not forgivable. And, you know,
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  Speaker 4: Nelson Mandela said that we should forgive, but we should
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  Speaker 4: never forget. But I disagree with that because you can
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  Speaker 4: forgive if people have done it for the first time,
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  Speaker 4: but people continue to do it over and over and
• 20:18
  Speaker 4: over again and claim that they are signatory of the
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  Speaker 4: Geneva Convention. That gives us an obligation to respect human lives.
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  Speaker 4: and respect dignity of human beings regardless. So that was
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  Speaker 4: a big deal. The second thing is that, you know,
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  Speaker 4: it took me around 10 years to eat spaghetti because
• 20:42
  Speaker 4: that was the only meal that you get over and
• 20:47
  Speaker 4: over and over again for lunch and dinner every day.
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  Speaker 3: I can give you an example.
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  Speaker 4: I mean, I was very outspoken and I caused some
• 20:55
  Speaker 4: problems in the detention center. So as a result of that,
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  Speaker 4: I spent some time in maximum security prison in Broome Jail.
• 21:03
  Speaker 4: Let me tell you about the maximum security prison and
• 21:07
  Speaker 4: the jail system in Australia. It's an absolute superb place.
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  Speaker 4: I recommend it to everybody. Comparatively speaking to the detention
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  Speaker 4: center and the Department of Immigration treatment, the jail system,
• 21:19
  Speaker 4: which is controlled by the Australian judicial system, was amazing.
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  Speaker 4: I was treated like crazy. celebrity and I was given
• 21:32
  Speaker 4: clean clothes I was given proper meals I could read
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  Speaker 4: the newspaper I could watch tv and yes they put
• 21:40
  Speaker 4: me in handcuffs which is made out of metal but
• 21:44
  Speaker 4: in the detention center the handcuffs were made out of
• 21:47
  Speaker 4: plastic that's the only difference but um People were very respectful.
• 21:54
  Speaker 4: They call you by your name. They never degrade you
• 21:57
  Speaker 4: or spit on you or beat you.
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: Wow.
• 22:06
  Speaker 4: And more than all of that, you have access to
• 22:13
  Speaker 4: the outside environment by you can write letters and you
• 22:16
  Speaker 4: can make phone calls, which we didn't have.
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: That access to.
• 22:20
  Speaker 4: So the jail was an eye-opener for me of how
• 22:24
  Speaker 4: great Australia was. Wow.
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: It would have been like staying in a hotel comparatively.
• 22:30
  Speaker 4: It was a five-star hotel compared to the detention centre.
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: I mean, when people go through things like that, that
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: would destroy some people. It did. And obviously this is
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: an individual response. It destroys people. Maybe it lights a
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: fire in other people. Maybe it's like some kind of
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: light bulb moment, turning point, you know, like for you, obviously,
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: I don't know whether or not it was a, well,
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: clearly not something you wanted to experience, but what is
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: the difference? What makes the difference? And again, this is
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: just an opinion and an observation, but through people who
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: are just defeated and that's almost the beginning of the
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: end versus somebody like yourself.
• 23:14
  Speaker 4: Well, that's the thing. People are people and they are different.
• 23:18
  Speaker 4: They're made from different kind of genetics. And to some people,
• 23:24
  Speaker 4: I was one of the very few that were very
• 23:27
  Speaker 4: resilient and could fight. And I did fight. And I'm
• 23:33
  Speaker 4: still fighting until now. But to many people, I mean,
• 23:39
  Speaker 4: this was a destructive process. And then when people like
• 23:44
  Speaker 4: Philip Roddick comes out and say, well, these people will
• 23:49
  Speaker 4: come out of the detention center and become useless and
• 23:52
  Speaker 4: live on the social security. Well, I met him inside
• 23:56
  Speaker 4: the detention center and I said to him, why don't
• 23:58
  Speaker 4: you just you know, electronically tag us, put us in
• 24:03
  Speaker 4: the middle of Alice Springs or somewhere in Tasmania, and
• 24:07
  Speaker 4: we will farm the lands, let people, you know, learn
• 24:10
  Speaker 4: the culture, learn the language and become useful instead of
• 24:13
  Speaker 4: spending all this money on us by holding us in cages.
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: We were held in cages, basically. Okay.
• 24:22
  Speaker 4: I was at some stage in the in the hotel
• 24:24
  Speaker 4: which was their uh their special place and it was
• 24:28
  Speaker 4: like 1 by 1.5 by 2.5 meters box with a
• 24:31
  Speaker 4: small hole 20 cent piece um window and a mattress
• 24:33
  Speaker 4: on the floor no no no um Sheets, no pillow,
• 24:46
  Speaker 4: and an air conditioner 24-7 and a fluorescent light that
• 24:49
  Speaker 4: was purple in color 24-7 and a camera. And they
• 24:53
  Speaker 4: would take you out for two hours to have exercise.
• 24:56
  Speaker 4: I mean, and every time I asked them, what am
• 25:00
  Speaker 4: I doing here? They say, well, we're rehabilitating you. I mean,
• 25:03
  Speaker 4: this is the rehabilitation based on the Department of Immigration. Now,
• 25:07
  Speaker 4: the problem is all of that was completely... undocumented unrecognized
• 25:13
  Speaker 4: by the australian public and when i tried to give
• 25:18
  Speaker 4: it to the media and back in 2000 and a
• 25:23
  Speaker 4: well-documented evidence okay about my side of the story and
• 25:28
  Speaker 4: many other witnesses and the media was not interested um
• 25:34
  Speaker 4: so you wonder what's going on there.
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: That is wow i'm i'm I'm sorry you had to
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: go through that.
• 25:43
  Speaker 3: Well, look, it is what it is.
• 25:45
  Speaker 4: But let me tell you, I mean, David Mann and
• 25:50
  Speaker 4: some human rights activists and lawyers tried to find anyone
• 25:55
  Speaker 4: that would come and testify.
• 25:57
  Speaker 3: And speak out.
• 25:58
  Speaker 4: But people were scared because they are scared that their
• 26:01
  Speaker 4: visa will be revoked or even their nationality will be
• 26:06
  Speaker 4: pulled off them. And that's the fear that I remember
• 26:09
  Speaker 4: when I first went out of the detention center and
• 26:15
  Speaker 4: basically tried to speak out. ABC was making a documentary
• 26:20
  Speaker 4: on my experience as a doctor.
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 26:24
  Speaker 4: Another colleague from Western Australia called me and he said,
• 26:28
  Speaker 4: what are you doing? Aren't you scared that there will
• 26:31
  Speaker 4: be repercussions?
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 26:34
  Speaker 4: And that's an Australian, you know, professor of medicine telling
• 26:39
  Speaker 4: me to be careful because, you know, you think that
• 26:43
  Speaker 4: things are, you know, freedom of speech and all of that.
• 26:47
  Speaker 3: There's no such thing.
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: Especially when you– it's not like you're taking a wild
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: guess or it's an opinion or it's third-hand information. Like
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: this is your literal experience.
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: Absolutely. And I have it documented by images.
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: Tell me– before we started recording, I told you this
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: was very conversational and freestyle, but here we are. Describe
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: being inside that box– with a window in inverted commas,
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: the size of a 20 cent piece, with purple fluoro lights,
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: with constant AC. What do you do with your mind?
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: I mean, clearly you have an intelligent, busy, active, creative,
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: problem-solving mind. What are you and your mind doing in
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: that place?
• 27:40
  Speaker 3: Well, you just count the minutes and the hours. I started, you.
• 27:46
  Speaker 4: Know, I managed to steal a pebble, a small pebble,
• 27:49
  Speaker 4: and I started making sculpture out of it, okay, and
• 27:52
  Speaker 4: the ground and the cement floor.
• 27:55
  Speaker 3: So that's what I did.
• 27:57
  Speaker 4: And then I managed to, I stayed there for around
• 28:02
  Speaker 4: 40 days in that location. I eventually went into a
• 28:06
  Speaker 4: hunger strike and I had a book in my belongings
• 28:09
  Speaker 4: that I brought with me. It's called Last Anatomy. And
• 28:12
  Speaker 4: I requested that book to break my hunger strike. They
• 28:15
  Speaker 4: gave me that book and that was my only request.
• 28:19
  Speaker 4: And I kept reading. I read it from cover to
• 28:23
  Speaker 4: cover over and over again. I read it, I think
• 28:25
  Speaker 4: five times during these 40 days. And, um, thanks to
• 28:29
  Speaker 4: Philip product and his, um, um, basically, uh, bulldog was,
• 28:34
  Speaker 4: his name was Craig Wallace. Um, and, um, I managed
• 28:39
  Speaker 4: to score very high in anatomy when I passed, when,
• 28:42
  Speaker 4: when I said the exam for the Royal college of surgeons.
• 28:45
  Speaker 4: So I'm forever indebted to these two people for, um,
• 28:50
  Speaker 4: Locking me down and allowing me to study that hard.
• 28:53
  Speaker 4: I mean, it's very cynical, but it is what it is.
• 28:56
  Speaker 4: You have to use the time.
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: But you don't wish it to anybody.
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: 100%.
• 29:04
  Speaker 3: There is.
• 29:05
  Speaker 4: So you can, I'm one of, I mean, don't get
• 29:07
  Speaker 4: me wrong. There are some sympathizers inside the detention center.
• 29:11
  Speaker 4: A guard smuggled a Kodak camera for me and I
• 29:15
  Speaker 4: managed to take footage of things inside and I published
• 29:19
  Speaker 4: them on the internet. So if you look at that box,
• 29:22
  Speaker 4: it's called 225. You can search it. You will find it.
• 29:26
  Speaker 4: Curtain Detention Center. I don't know if it's still the images,
• 29:29
  Speaker 4: but I can give you the footage.
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: Wow. What about being in that environment Was there anyone
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: else like you? Could you connect with like-minded people or
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: was everybody defeated?
• 29:47
  Speaker 4: Well, look, inside that detention centre at some stage there
• 29:50
  Speaker 4: was 1,252 people. Among them there were 13 doctors. With
• 29:56
  Speaker 4: the exception of one, they all became fully qualified specialists.
• 30:00
  Speaker 4: So they were very, very intelligent people. I mean, when
• 30:04
  Speaker 4: I say that these detainees and these refugees are a
• 30:07
  Speaker 4: slice of the community, it is true. But it was,
• 30:11
  Speaker 4: interestingly enough, it was a slice of the community that
• 30:14
  Speaker 4: was affluent because these are the people that could have
• 30:17
  Speaker 4: access to money, could have access to a language, and
• 30:20
  Speaker 4: they could cross borders.
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: So there was.
• 30:25
  Speaker 4: unevenly misrepresented because there were more of the educated class
• 30:33
  Speaker 4: that came. I mean, some were not, but a lot
• 30:38
  Speaker 4: of them were. There were a lot of engineers. There
• 30:40
  Speaker 4: were a lot of people that could be very successful
• 30:45
  Speaker 4: in their lives after they were released. There were some
• 30:48
  Speaker 4: people who were resilient and there were some people who
• 30:53
  Speaker 4: got defeated very quickly. There were a couple of people
• 30:59
  Speaker 4: that I remember that this experience destroyed them completely. I
• 31:05
  Speaker 4: know one of them who was a doctor actually, and
• 31:08
  Speaker 4: he was completely defeated. He was walking, you know, counting
• 31:11
  Speaker 4: the steps along the barbed wire of the detention center,
• 31:16
  Speaker 4: but we were locked in compounds. So I mean, um,
• 31:21
  Speaker 4: so there was alpha Bravo, uh, Charlie Delta and, and then, um,
• 31:27
  Speaker 4: Foxtrot and the hotel, the hotel is the, for the special, um, um,
• 31:32
  Speaker 4: you know, uh, naughty, naughty people. Every time anyone cause
• 31:36
  Speaker 4: any problems, they get, they get thrown in the hotel. Um,
• 31:39
  Speaker 4: So I spend a lot of time in the hotel myself.
• 31:43
  Speaker 4: But you get released between 7 a.m.
• 31:50
  Speaker 3: And 7 p.m. in the common compound.
• 31:53
  Speaker 4: And you get headcounted four times a day. And, you know,
• 31:58
  Speaker 4: we were in Derby, which is like 200k away from Broome.
• 32:06
  Speaker 4: in northwestern Australia, and it was a desert. And the
• 32:10
  Speaker 4: first three months, the Department of Immigration was not prepared,
• 32:13
  Speaker 4: so we had army stretches and.
• 32:16
  Speaker 3: Tents.
• 32:18
  Speaker 4: And again, I took a lot of photos, and they
• 32:21
  Speaker 4: are available on the net about the situation over there.
• 32:25
  Speaker 3: And you stand.
• 32:28
  Speaker 4: In front of the kiosk for two hours to be headcounted.
• 32:32
  Speaker 4: And you get given an apple and colorless spaghetti and
• 32:40
  Speaker 4: minced meat. And then you get given an orange and
• 32:45
  Speaker 4: colorless spaghetti and minced meat every day for lunch and
• 32:49
  Speaker 4: dinner over and over again.
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: And then they.
• 32:52
  Speaker 4: Come at midnight and they do they do head counts
• 32:55
  Speaker 4: on everybody again. So they have to wake you up,
• 32:59
  Speaker 4: get your ID, they look at your number, they look
• 33:02
  Speaker 4: at your face and compare it and then they move on.
• 33:06
  Speaker 4: So it was very methodical and very systematic approach of
• 33:13
  Speaker 4: psychological torture.
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: Speaking of such things, what was the.
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: A situation around medical care or even psychological mental health care,
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: I'm imagining it was next to nothing.
• 33:31
  Speaker 4: So we had a nurse that come once a month
• 33:34
  Speaker 4: and there were incidences where people have injured themselves and
• 33:41
  Speaker 4: there was an incident that I had to, with the
• 33:44
  Speaker 4: permission of Craig Wallace, to stitch someone's head. because he
• 33:49
  Speaker 4: fell and gashed his forehead. And so I had to
• 33:55
  Speaker 4: perform that procedure on this patient. We diagnosed several people
• 34:00
  Speaker 4: with colicky pain, appendicitis. We had three pregnant women at
• 34:05
  Speaker 4: that time. But the nearest hospital was Derby Hospital, which
• 34:09
  Speaker 4: was 40 k's away, which was a small center. But
• 34:15
  Speaker 4: the nearest base hospital was in Broome. but we didn't
• 34:19
  Speaker 4: have access to that because we were on a raft base,
• 34:23
  Speaker 4: so that was excluded from the Australian public. It was
• 34:26
  Speaker 4: military zone.
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: And obviously your time in that tiny space was horrible,
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: but how did you, in general terms, how did you
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: get through that in terms of your own mental health?
• 34:42
  Speaker 3: Well, you know, it's, I mean.
• 34:47
  Speaker 4: In hindsight, I don't know how I did that, but
• 34:53
  Speaker 4: you live your day and you start preparing for what
• 34:58
  Speaker 4: to do next. So I was very busy trying to
• 35:04
  Speaker 4: find a solution for uh for myself and for people
• 35:09
  Speaker 4: surrounding me and as i said and i admitted that
• 35:15
  Speaker 4: that i did not shut up and um and you
• 35:19
  Speaker 4: know philip product came and visited the place and all
• 35:23
  Speaker 4: of a sudden he saw a lot of people that
• 35:25
  Speaker 4: standing there in front of him um with big and
• 35:28
  Speaker 4: we we use the sheets and rots with them with
• 35:32
  Speaker 4: chalk or whatever and you know you can get your
• 35:38
  Speaker 4: hand on like markers and things like that and and
• 35:41
  Speaker 4: putting signs saying well we we would like to speak
• 35:45
  Speaker 4: to someone and as a.
• 35:49
  Speaker 3: Given the opportunity to meet him. And the man was amazing.
• 35:53
  Speaker 4: I mean, it.
• 35:56
  Speaker 3: Does make me think how people can be so strange.
• 36:07
  Speaker 4: Maybe I'm not choosing the right word because when I
• 36:10
  Speaker 4: asked him, I said, what about these children? What is
• 36:15
  Speaker 4: their fate? Some of them are stuck here for months
• 36:20
  Speaker 4: and months or years. It's not their fault that their
• 36:24
  Speaker 4: families have brought them here. And as a basic right
• 36:32
  Speaker 4: for them, they deserve to have education. And to my recollection,
• 36:38
  Speaker 4: and I can't quote his words, but what I understood
• 36:42
  Speaker 4: of what he said is that if you let them go,
• 36:45
  Speaker 4: then they become criminals. because their families broke the law
• 36:49
  Speaker 4: by coming here but i can't quote yeah yeah yeah
• 36:54
  Speaker 4: the words but that's what was my understanding of what
• 36:56
  Speaker 4: he said i mean the guy was completely um disturbing
• 37:01
  Speaker 4: um and and when I suggested to him to tag
• 37:07
  Speaker 4: us and send us to the farms, and he said, no,
• 37:10
  Speaker 4: this is not an option.
• 37:13
  Speaker 3: You want to go back to where you come from?
• 37:15
  Speaker 3: We will allow that.
• 37:16
  Speaker 4: We will return you. But you are here indefinitely. And
• 37:20
  Speaker 4: we don't know when we will let you have a
• 37:24
  Speaker 4: legal representation. So for the first time I was asked
• 37:27
  Speaker 4: about my name in the detention center. Like I got
• 37:31
  Speaker 4: to Australia on the 8th of November, 1999. The first
• 37:35
  Speaker 4: time anyone asked me what was my name and I
• 37:37
  Speaker 4: was given a piece of paper to fill was on
• 37:39
  Speaker 4: the 17th.
• 37:39
  Speaker 3: Of May, 2000. Wow.
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: Wow. Wow.
• 37:42
  Speaker 3: And you spend all of that time there.
• 37:47
  Speaker 4: Just counting days and wasting taxpayers money.
• 37:53
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 37:53
  Speaker 4: I mean, um, it's, but politics is politics and, um,
• 38:02
  Speaker 4: and nobody give a damn about, um, human, um, suffering.
• 38:08
  Speaker 4: I mean, uh, what, what win voters is what win voters. Um,
• 38:13
  Speaker 4: you don't want people coming, to our borders and our shores,
• 38:19
  Speaker 4: but find me a better solution. And then he said, well,
• 38:23
  Speaker 4: why don't you apply for UNHCR abroad? Some people have
• 38:28
  Speaker 4: the luxury of doing that.
• 38:29
  Speaker 3: We did not.
• 38:30
  Speaker 4: We were chased by Saddam's regime. We were running.
• 38:35
  Speaker 3: For our life.
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 38:37
  Speaker 4: We couldn't find a third country that would be stable
• 38:41
  Speaker 4: enough and safe enough that we can go to a
• 38:43
  Speaker 4: UNHCR place and apply.
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: How you've got your shit together as much as you do,
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: to be honest. Excuse my language. It's fucking amazing.
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: Tell me about.
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: the first day. Tell me about stepping out of that
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: and then we'll move on. I'm just fascinated with your
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: personal survival and your attitude in the middle of that.
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: Tell me about getting out.
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: Tell me about the first 24 hours or getting out
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: of that place.
• 39:17
  Speaker 4: It was very interesting, actually, because Craig Wallace is the
• 39:21
  Speaker 4: guy I would love to meet the guy because he
• 39:25
  Speaker 4: was amazing.
• 39:26
  Speaker 3: He was like a classic.
• 39:28
  Speaker 4: I can I can give you some examples from the
• 39:30
  Speaker 4: 30s of people look like him um and acted like
• 39:33
  Speaker 4: him he was he was enjoying his job to the
• 39:37
  Speaker 4: max like the guy was brilliant um and um um
• 39:43
  Speaker 4: and He should be accountable for a lot of atrocities
• 39:49
  Speaker 4: for what he did to people.
• 39:51
  Speaker 3: So he came to me at 2 a.m. in the morning,
• 39:53
  Speaker 3: I remember. And he said, well, finally, you got your visa.
• 39:57
  Speaker 4: And he said, what was his words actually to the person?
• 40:03
  Speaker 4: I mean, to the effect of, he said, he won
• 40:06
  Speaker 4: the battle, but he didn't win the war. I mean,
• 40:08
  Speaker 4: this kind of mentality, the guy, but I caused him
• 40:11
  Speaker 4: a lot of embarrassment in fairness.
• 40:13
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 40:14
  Speaker 4: And then he said, well, the group that you will
• 40:17
  Speaker 4: be leaving with will go to Brisbane by plane. But
• 40:23
  Speaker 4: because you speak the language, we decided to let you
• 40:26
  Speaker 4: go here.
• 40:27
  Speaker 3: So I said, here where?
• 40:28
  Speaker 4: And he said, well, we will open the gate for you.
• 40:33
  Speaker 4: You can go on the road and there is a
• 40:35
  Speaker 4: Greyhound bus from Derby to Broome. We will take you
• 40:38
  Speaker 4: to the bus stop and you can pick up the bus.
• 40:41
  Speaker 4: And I thought, what an amazing opportunity this guy is
• 40:44
  Speaker 4: giving me. So he gave me my visa and he said,
• 40:48
  Speaker 4: you can go to Broome and from Broome you can fly.
• 40:51
  Speaker 4: So I took the bus and it was the best
• 40:55
  Speaker 4: opportunity because I took the bus from Derby to Broome to,
• 40:59
  Speaker 4: to Perth, to Adelaide, to, to Melbourne, to Sydney by bus.
• 41:05
  Speaker 4: And I traveled around the coast of Australia by bus.
• 41:09
  Speaker 4: And thanks to him, he was trying to punish me,
• 41:11
  Speaker 4: but gave me the opportunity to see around Australia.
• 41:15
  Speaker 3: So this is who I am in a nutshell. Okay. Um,
• 41:20
  Speaker 3: So that was the last encounter with this guy. And
• 41:24
  Speaker 3: he was like.
• 41:30
  Speaker 3: He enjoyed what he did big time.
• 41:32
  Speaker 4: And there are things that are, I can't talk about, uh, on, uh,
• 41:37
  Speaker 4: on camera, but, uh, but, but he, the things that
• 41:41
  Speaker 4: he did were amazing. Um, um, like in a, in
• 41:46
  Speaker 4: a very, very, um, interesting way. Uh, like the guy was, I,
• 41:51
  Speaker 4: I can clinically look at the DSM-5 book back then.
• 41:58
  Speaker 4: He was a classic, in my opinion, he was an
• 42:01
  Speaker 4: absolute sociopath. Like he was a classic description of how
• 42:05
  Speaker 4: a sociopath can be, that guy.
• 42:09
  Speaker 3: And he enjoyed everything he did. And he wasn't a psychopath.
• 42:14
  Speaker 3: He was a sociopath.
• 42:15
  Speaker 4: He was like someone that enjoyed torturing people and watching
• 42:19
  Speaker 4: them suffer. But anyway, so when I got out, I
• 42:26
  Speaker 4: went to Perth. I went to Royal Perth Hospital. Can
• 42:31
  Speaker 4: I interrupt for one sec?
• 42:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah, sure.
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: Okay, so you get out.
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: Have you got a phone? Have you got any money?
• 42:37
  Speaker 4: No.
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: How do you contact? Like you've got no money.
• 42:40
  Speaker 4: So I had, I had three and a half thousand
• 42:43
  Speaker 4: dollars that I, that was left on me and they
• 42:47
  Speaker 4: kept it for me. So they gave it to me. Okay.
• 42:50
  Speaker 4: They exchanged a hundred dollars, I think for me from memory.
• 42:53
  Speaker 4: And they gave me a hundred Australian, like equivalent of
• 42:57
  Speaker 4: a hundred American dollars in, in Australian money. And they
• 43:02
  Speaker 4: gave me a piece of paper, which is my visa.
• 43:07
  Speaker 4: And they said, on you go. Um, and, um, and
• 43:10
  Speaker 4: when you get to the nearest, um, like a major city,
• 43:16
  Speaker 4: go to the center link and they, they.
• 43:18
  Speaker 3: Will help you.
• 43:18
  Speaker 4: Um, so funny enough, um, um, I received eventually like
• 43:24
  Speaker 4: all my, um, you know, social security card, well, not
• 43:28
  Speaker 4: social security now. Um, I don't know what you call it. Uh, the, um, um,
• 43:35
  Speaker 4: Not the Medicare. Medicare and the, I can't remember what
• 43:40
  Speaker 4: it's called. The cars, they were all addressed in Brisbane, basically.
• 43:47
  Speaker 4: So I was supposed to go to Brisbane, but I didn't.
• 43:50
  Speaker 4: So I got the bus, then exchanged more money. They
• 43:54
  Speaker 4: gave me my money back and got to Perth, got
• 43:58
  Speaker 4: to Royal Perth, asked for the on-call doctor.
• 44:01
  Speaker 3: The on-call doctor came out.
• 44:03
  Speaker 4: He turned out to be an Iraqi guy and he
• 44:05
  Speaker 4: looked at me and said, well, can you hire me?
• 44:09
  Speaker 4: And the guy looked at me and he said, well,
• 44:11
  Speaker 4: have you passed your exam? Have you done any of the...
• 44:15
  Speaker 4: of the tests um and i said no i haven't
• 44:17
  Speaker 4: i just got out of detention center yesterday or the
• 44:20
  Speaker 4: day before and he said well go to the farms
• 44:23
  Speaker 4: collect some fruits and then sit your english exam and
• 44:28
  Speaker 4: then and then sit your qualification exam and if you
• 44:31
  Speaker 4: pass then you can apply for jobs so i thought
• 44:35
  Speaker 4: okay well this is not the path that i want
• 44:37
  Speaker 4: to do i want to work now so um So
• 44:41
  Speaker 4: I started working. I mean, the first couple of months
• 44:45
  Speaker 4: we just did whatever, toilet cleaning, anything. My first job
• 44:49
  Speaker 4: in Australia was toilet cleaning.
• 44:50
  Speaker 3: Wow.
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: And then.
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: Where at? Where were you cleaning toilets?
• 44:54
  Speaker 3: Well, I started in the detention center. Oh. Okay. And
• 44:59
  Speaker 3: I was paid like $ 5 a day. Okay.
• 45:03
  Speaker 4: Which was amazing. Oh, I didn't mind it. It's a
• 45:05
  Speaker 4: job like any other job. As long as it's a
• 45:07
  Speaker 4: decent job and you're not taking anyone's money. And then
• 45:12
  Speaker 4: I applied to I went to the Centrelink and and
• 45:16
  Speaker 4: I told them, look, well, I need to work. And
• 45:19
  Speaker 4: they said, well, there is something called CV. Have you
• 45:22
  Speaker 4: got your CV? And I said, no. And they helped
• 45:24
  Speaker 4: me filling a CV. And then they said, well, this is.
• 45:29
  Speaker 4: you're going to send it to places of work. So
• 45:32
  Speaker 4: I sent it everywhere, and I got two job interviews,
• 45:36
  Speaker 4: one from Mildura-based hospital and the other one from Shepparton.
• 45:41
  Speaker 4: I got the interviews, and I passed both interviews. So
• 45:45
  Speaker 4: I decided to go to Mildura.
• 45:46
  Speaker 3: I got a job. I was released on the 26th.
• 45:49
  Speaker 4: Of August 2000 from the detention centre and I got
• 45:53
  Speaker 4: my first paycheck as a doctor on the 1st of
• 45:56
  Speaker 4: November 2000. So I do apologise for taxpayers that I
• 46:01
  Speaker 4: lived on the centre link for two months.
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: Well, on behalf of everyone that I really can't speak,
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: we're glad you stayed.
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: Just quickly though.
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: Didn't you have to re-qualify or something in that time or.
• 46:17
  Speaker 4: Well, in the meantime, and again, thanks to Craig Wallace
• 46:23
  Speaker 4: and Philip Rodak putting me in the isolation chamber, basically
• 46:30
  Speaker 4: I managed to study very hard anatomy and there were
• 46:32
  Speaker 4: three components, anatomy, physiology and pathology. So I mastered the anatomy,
• 46:38
  Speaker 4: I studied very well for the physiology and the pathology
• 46:42
  Speaker 4: And I passed my primary for becoming a surgeon. So
• 46:48
  Speaker 4: by May, I recognized all my qualifications. So I worked
• 46:53
  Speaker 4: in Mildura. And that's why I started climbing the ladder.
• 46:56
  Speaker 4: So I can tell you that I finished my training
• 47:00
  Speaker 4: as an orthopedic surgeon at the same age of a
• 47:03
  Speaker 4: local Australian.
• 47:04
  Speaker 3: And that pissed off a lot of people, let me
• 47:07
  Speaker 3: tell you.
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: I'm sure. I'm sure. That's... Do you think your resilience
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: is something that is innate? Is it genetic or is
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: it something that?
• 47:18
  Speaker 3: I think I'm after my mum. My mum is very resilient.
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: Like I think that stubbornness, that defiance, like that in
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: a good way, I mean, yeah, I don't, that's, all right,
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: let's fast forward a little bit. So what excites you now?
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: Like you spoke a little bit. at the start, at
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: the top of the show about what you're doing. But
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: moving forward, like what has your focus, what has your attention?
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: And this is a bit cliche, but like what's your
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: purpose in 2020?
• 47:48
  Speaker 4: Well, look, I mean, before that, if I may, I mean,
• 47:54
  Speaker 4: when I first got on the training program, I started realizing, see,
• 47:59
  Speaker 4: you get traumatized so badly that you become– it becomes–
• 48:04
  Speaker 4: indoctrinated in you that because you're a refugee you're an
• 48:07
  Speaker 4: asylum seeker you're you're something filthy okay that that the
• 48:13
  Speaker 4: scum of the earth coming trying to leech on on
• 48:16
  Speaker 4: our system so the last thing you want is to
• 48:19
  Speaker 4: show that you're you're coming from that background okay yeah
• 48:23
  Speaker 4: and um and majority of asylum seekers you know change
• 48:27
  Speaker 4: their names uh, took different identity and they don't want
• 48:31
  Speaker 4: to speak.
• 48:32
  Speaker 3: I remember I was in, in a best man in
• 48:35
  Speaker 3: a wedding.
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 48:37
  Speaker 4: Uh, of my, um, back then was my best friend and,
• 48:41
  Speaker 4: and I stood up there and I tried to give
• 48:44
  Speaker 4: the speech for him. And I said, well, we were
• 48:46
  Speaker 4: in detention center. And if he watched me, he said.
• 48:50
  Speaker 3: What are you doing? Nobody knows that I'm a refugee. Okay.
• 48:54
  Speaker 4: And he was working as a, as an electronic engineer
• 48:56
  Speaker 4: in Erickson. and um and he was so embarrassed and
• 49:00
  Speaker 4: i didn't know what to say and i said what's
• 49:01
  Speaker 4: wrong with that okay so people have this stigma with
• 49:05
  Speaker 4: them and and i was not different to others until
• 49:11
  Speaker 4: that moment where it gave me a big wake-up call
• 49:16
  Speaker 4: In the celebration of getting on the training program, which
• 49:20
  Speaker 4: is a big accolade, you know, when you become part,
• 49:23
  Speaker 4: you know the difference between an orthopedic surgeon and God?
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, go on.
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: What is it?
• 49:29
  Speaker 3: God didn't think that he's an orthopedic surgeon. That's all. Okay.
• 49:33
  Speaker 4: So to get on this specialization, which is the le
• 49:38
  Speaker 4: creme de le creme of you know surgical specialties and
• 49:42
  Speaker 4: it's designed for people who are of certain color certain
• 49:45
  Speaker 4: background you have to go to the right school you
• 49:47
  Speaker 4: have to go to play the right rugby and club
• 49:51
  Speaker 4: and you need to be like one of the in
• 49:54
  Speaker 4: sydney one of the lower north shore people okay You.
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: Need to tick the appropriate boxes.
• 49:59
  Speaker 3: Exactly.
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: You didn't tick any boxes.
• 50:02
  Speaker 3: I ticked none.
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: You were not even near the boxes.
• 50:06
  Speaker 4: So I got two of my colleagues in our welcome
• 50:10
  Speaker 4: farewell dinner.
• 50:11
  Speaker 3: They used to do that back in the day. I
• 50:12
  Speaker 3: don't know if they do it nowadays.
• 50:14
  Speaker 4: And two of my colleagues came to me, to my face.
• 50:19
  Speaker 3: They said it to each other. Isn't it a shame?
• 50:21
  Speaker 4: That the standard of the Royal Australian orthopedic surgeons to
• 50:25
  Speaker 4: drop that low to allow a refugee to be one
• 50:27
  Speaker 4: of us. And that was a wake up call for me.
• 50:31
  Speaker 4: And I thought, okay, bastards, I'll show you what this
• 50:34
  Speaker 4: refugee would do.
• 50:35
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 50:36
  Speaker 4: Uh, and, um, and it was meant to be an insult,
• 50:41
  Speaker 4: but I took it as a big, um, uh, you know,
• 50:44
  Speaker 4: a push for me to excel in what I do.
• 50:47
  Speaker 3: And I did.
• 50:47
  Speaker 4: Um, so I, um, I, uh, I scored best in
• 50:53
  Speaker 4: my exams and I managed to pass first go in
• 50:57
  Speaker 4: my exams and never failed the test.
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: It's so funny how different people respond. Like somebody that
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: would have been, you know, just like your time, you know,
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: in detention, that would have been the beginning of the end.
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: But every time, like for you, it's almost like an
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: opportunity to It's like fuel. It's like fuel for that
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: fire to prove people wrong, which, yeah.
• 51:24
  Speaker 4: So, yeah, and as a result of that, I decided, okay, well,
• 51:28
  Speaker 4: enough of high for which is which I'm to be
• 51:35
  Speaker 4: honest I'm ashamed of because of the time before that
• 51:39
  Speaker 4: I was I was trying to integrate into the society
• 51:44
  Speaker 4: and be you know change my color and become one
• 51:47
  Speaker 4: of the common people like trying to become a dinky
• 51:52
  Speaker 4: die Aussie well I will never fit I'll never become
• 51:55
  Speaker 4: an Aussie Okay. And bad luck. It is what it is.
• 52:00
  Speaker 4: So from that moment onward, I decided, well, this is wrong.
• 52:06
  Speaker 4: So I started devoting a lot of my time to
• 52:08
  Speaker 4: fight for human rights, fight for people who are in
• 52:12
  Speaker 4: need of help. And as a result of that, I
• 52:15
  Speaker 4: carried on. I did a lot of humanitarian work after
• 52:19
  Speaker 4: I finished. And I went to war zones. I went
• 52:21
  Speaker 4: to Ukraine. I went to the Middle East. I went
• 52:24
  Speaker 4: to Iraq multiple times. And I still go every time
• 52:29
  Speaker 4: there is an opportunity to war zones. I mean, I've
• 52:33
  Speaker 4: been to Kharkov, I've been to Kiev, I've been to
• 52:36
  Speaker 4: Odessa and different places in.
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: Ukraine.
• 52:42
  Speaker 4: I've been to Baghdad, I've been to Basra, I've been
• 52:45
  Speaker 4: to the West Bank, I've been to Tel Aviv, I've
• 52:48
  Speaker 4: been to Haifa. Wherever there is a conflict, I go
• 52:54
  Speaker 4: and try to help. I don't discriminate against anybody. Every
• 52:57
  Speaker 4: human is deserved to be treated. And I remember one
• 53:01
  Speaker 4: day we were operating on the 12th floor in.
• 53:04
  Speaker 3: Kiev and I know I was in Lviv.
• 53:09
  Speaker 4: And there was a patient that I was operating on
• 53:12
  Speaker 4: from Donbas and I didn't know who the patient was.
• 53:15
  Speaker 4: And there was an air raid of drones coming in
• 53:17
  Speaker 4: and they said, well, we need to go to the bunker.
• 53:19
  Speaker 4: And I said, I'm not leaving. There is a patient
• 53:20
  Speaker 4: on the table. And someone said, well, don't worry. The
• 53:25
  Speaker 4: patient is Russian.
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 53:27
  Speaker 4: And I said, well, I don't care. I didn't know
• 53:30
  Speaker 4: that this patient was Russian and I don't care if
• 53:32
  Speaker 4: he's Russian or not. One of you will stay with me.
• 53:35
  Speaker 4: I keep going with the operation, okay? So we treated everybody.
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes. Wow, that's a rare mindset. Even though you
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: never would maybe fit in as a dinky die in
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: inverted commas Aussie, nonetheless.
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: You were Australian of the year 2020 for New South Wales.
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: Tell us, give us a bit of context around that.
• 54:02
  Speaker 4: Well, it was, you know, the peak of my, I
• 54:07
  Speaker 4: call it And then you go downhill from there. And
• 54:16
  Speaker 4: it was like, it was a great recognition. And I'm
• 54:20
  Speaker 4: very honored to be given that acknowledgement and for the
• 54:28
  Speaker 4: work that I've done and I continue to do. And
• 54:32
  Speaker 4: that itself was not a stopping moment for me that
• 54:36
  Speaker 4: was basically an initiative for me to to do more
• 54:39
  Speaker 4: and more um and and i wanted to continue the
• 54:43
  Speaker 4: journey um with uh with further progress and um and
• 54:48
  Speaker 4: helping more people in war zones. Actually, that happened before
• 54:54
  Speaker 4: the Ukrainian war started. And from that time onward, that
• 55:00
  Speaker 4: gave me a big motivation to go and do more
• 55:04
  Speaker 4: in other areas, such as Ukraine, such as other places
• 55:09
  Speaker 4: around the world. I was going to go to the
• 55:15
  Speaker 4: Middle East with the conflict in Gaza and I got
• 55:21
  Speaker 4: invited by side and the, and the Palestinian side. And,
• 55:25
  Speaker 4: and my, um, um, response was that I would go there.
• 55:28
  Speaker 4: I'm more than happy to go there. Um, but in
• 55:31
  Speaker 4: one condition, I treat both, um, um, injured people and non-discriminatory,
• 55:38
  Speaker 4: everybody who's injured deserve to be treated. And, um, um,
• 55:42
  Speaker 4: and then I was, um, booking my flights and everything. And, um,
• 55:48
  Speaker 4: and then I received a phone call from, um, certain
• 55:51
  Speaker 4: organization that I worked in and they said, well, you know,
• 55:57
  Speaker 4: we are not involved in the politics. And if you
• 56:00
  Speaker 4: want to keep your title with us and you want
• 56:04
  Speaker 4: to keep your position with our, you know, organization or
• 56:12
  Speaker 4: without mentioning any names, I don't want to, I don't
• 56:14
  Speaker 4: feel comfortable mentioning. It was from a Dean of a
• 56:17
  Speaker 4: school of medicine and you better, reconsider going there.
• 56:23
  Speaker 3: So that was a stop for me, unfortunately.
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: What's the driver to keep going into these dangerous places
• 56:36
  Speaker 2: when you clearly don't need to?
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: I'm not saying you shouldn't. I think it's incredible.
• 56:43
  Speaker 3: I think it's very.
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: What's the motivation?
• 56:46
  Speaker 4: See, I've seen a lot of people that I've seen–
• 56:51
  Speaker 4: young people that were treated and achieved, you know, if
• 56:56
  Speaker 4: you change one person's life, that person will change his
• 56:59
  Speaker 4: family's life and that will have a reflection on other people.
• 57:03
  Speaker 4: So it's a multiplier effect, okay, and a good pass on.
• 57:11
  Speaker 4: I remember a paramedic that I treated who was dying
• 57:14
  Speaker 4: actually in Ukraine And he weighed back then 36 kilos, okay,
• 57:21
  Speaker 4: a male paramedic, okay. Like he looked completely anorexic, very
• 57:29
  Speaker 4: high up.
• 57:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely. He was just skin and bone.
• 57:33
  Speaker 4: And I treated him, operated on him, gave him the
• 57:39
  Speaker 4: ability to walk again. And then I saw him a
• 57:42
  Speaker 4: year later in another visit to Ukraine and he was
• 57:46
  Speaker 4: married with a child, okay, like his wife was pregnant, okay,
• 57:52
  Speaker 4: started a family, returned back to work. So that's the drive.
• 57:55
  Speaker 4: You ask me about the drive, that's the drive. And
• 57:59
  Speaker 4: he was fully functional, basically, providing service to his community.
• 58:04
  Speaker 3: That's unbelievable.
• 58:08
  Speaker 2: So that's important, yeah. Well, Jude, how do you stay,
• 58:12
  Speaker 2: I mean, in the middle of the good and bad,
• 58:16
  Speaker 2: like the ecstasy and the agony and all of that,
• 58:19
  Speaker 2: how do you stay positive? Like, I mean, honestly, it's
• 58:23
  Speaker 2: like surely do you not get depressed? Do you not get–
• 58:27
  Speaker 2: do you not want to– I mean, I love how
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: you are. And like I'm listening– I'm thinking about our listeners.
• 58:34
  Speaker 2: I'm thinking about myself. I'm thinking about– I want to
• 58:38
  Speaker 2: be a little bit of you. I'm like how do I–
• 58:41
  Speaker 2: Is this because you've got this amazing purpose that compels you?
• 58:46
  Speaker 4: Well, look, I mean, I'll be like not realistic if
• 58:51
  Speaker 4: I tell you that I wake up some days and
• 58:53
  Speaker 4: I think, what the hell am I doing here?
• 58:55
  Speaker 3: This really sucks, okay?
• 58:58
  Speaker 4: And, you know, I mean, your intention.
• 59:02
  Speaker 3: Is always good, okay?
• 59:04
  Speaker 4: And and, and people, you know, talk about, uh, uh,
• 59:09
  Speaker 4: we are born innocent or we are born evil or, and,
• 59:13
  Speaker 4: and when you think about it is, um, is the,
• 59:16
  Speaker 4: we are born based on our instincts is fight for survival.
• 59:22
  Speaker 4: And then the society, our family, the environment shape us
• 59:29
  Speaker 4: to the way we are, okay? And we continue to
• 59:33
  Speaker 4: change and we continue to reshape over and over and
• 59:37
  Speaker 4: over again. And, you know, with the experience that we face,
• 59:42
  Speaker 4: in our life makes us who we are. And some,
• 59:45
  Speaker 4: some of them like knock us on the head big
• 59:48
  Speaker 4: time and throw us to the ground. And some of
• 59:51
  Speaker 4: us can get up and some of us may not. And,
• 59:55
  Speaker 4: and I've been knocked off. many times and you know
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 4: uh fairly to some extent and unfairly to many extents
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 4: okay and and the worst thing that you would face
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 4: is when you get accused of something that you're not
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 4: done or and being treated very unfairly and that's the
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 4: worst because you feel that the whole world is against
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 4: you and your there is no judgment and what's the
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 4: purpose of continuing because nothing is worth it But then
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 4: you wake up again and you see a message on
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 4: the phone saying thank you from someone that you've treated.
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 4: Or you see the smile on a child's face when
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 4: they see their father or their mother have recovered from
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 4: their illness. And that gives you the drive to continue.
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 2: Go on.
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I've got a left field question.
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah, go for it.
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: I know you've got at least one son because I
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 1: met him briefly.
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 2: I have six.
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 3: I have six. Kids?
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: Not all boys.
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 3: Well, two adults. I'm very proud of them all.
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 4: They are all doing a great job in their life. Yeah.
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 3: Well... The older one is, uh, is working for me.
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 4: He's a biomedical engineer and, um, he is finding his
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 4: path in life. Actually, I tried to bring him to
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 4: America and, um, and he stay in Sydney and, um,
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 4: look after his mom. And, um, then the second one, um,
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 4: is very hungry and he works for me as well.
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 4: And he's studying law. Then I have two middle girls
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 4: and they are skiers. They won championships in skiing. And
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 4: then I have two little ones, five and four year old.
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 4: And the five year old is a copycat of me.
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 3: She's the biggest evil in the world. And I think
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 3: she will be something. Um, and.
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 2: She'll be a nightmare for you.
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 1: Congratulations. You created that.
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 4: She is, she is brilliant. And, uh, and the four
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 4: year old is up with the fairies. He's like very happy. And, um,
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 4: he's a, he's a classic, like happy boy, pretty boy.
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 4: And I'm sure he will, uh, he will be very
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 4: happy in his life. So I'm very happy with my family.
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 4: I do get along with their moms and, um, And
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 4: you can tell that this is a failure of my life.
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 3: I'm single again.
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 4: I've never been successful in retaining a relationship. So that's
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 4: one of my biggest failures in life. And, you know,
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 4: and you would think that you would learn the lesson,
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 4: but I didn't.
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 2: Wow. I've never been married, Doc, and I'm way older
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 2: than you, right? You're a smart man. There's a lot
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 2: of issues between us. Yeah, if you and I sat
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 2: down and went through all our issues, it would be
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 2: a bloody 10-hour podcast.
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 1: That's right. Can I ask how old you are?
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 2: You look ridiculously young.
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 4: I'm 54.
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you look right.
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 3: But I think I lived 178 years so far.
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 2: Man, I'm not even being nice, but for those of
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 2: you who are only listening, you look, I don't know,
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 2: I would have said no more than 45. You look
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 2: 40 to 45, which is kind of amazing. Well, it's
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 2: a little bit annoying to be honest, but anyway. All right,
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 2: we need to wind up. I could talk to you forever.
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 2: It's such a good chat, such an interesting life. What
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 2: have you learned about the human condition? What do you
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 2: know about humans?
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 3: So I'm still figuring out what humans are. I mean,
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 3: we are very strange creatures.
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 4: Like, you know, if it's a computer treating a computer,
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 4: it will be 100% predictable results. If it's a human
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 4: treating a computer, it will be questionable about the ethics
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 4: and the integrity of the person treating that computer. If
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 4: it's a human treating a human, it's a double whammy.
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 4: It's a very complex situation because we are made of
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 4: flesh and blood and we're run by hormones. We are
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 4: run by emotions and emotions. And, you know, no one
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 4: is perfect. Have I made mistakes in my life?
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 3: Of course I have. Okay. Have I intended to make mistakes?
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 3: Of course not. But when I... It's the irony that
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 3: always is.
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 4: When I do a great job, you see the patient
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 4: and they say, thank God, I'm done very well.
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 3: And when you make a mistake, they say, your fault.
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 3: You stuffed it up.
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 1: So....
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 4: And so that is so classic. And I always remind
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 4: the patient and said, okay, well, I'm not being disrespectful
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 4: or blasphemous, but that's, that's usually the case. Um, I
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 4: continue to learn about human beings and, um, I'm very
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 4: grateful that I've been given the gift of helping people
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 4: and I'm very grateful that I continue to have the
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 4: chance of helping people. It is the ultimate selfishness, believe
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 4: it or not.
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 1: That's ironic that you say that. All right, let's wind up.
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 2: Two things. Question one is, actually maybe three things. Question
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 2: one is, What's something that you needed to unlearn?
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 4: I needed to unlearn devoting all my life to my
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 4: work and spend some time with my family.
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 1: Well, that goes with question two, which is what do
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 1: you need to do better? We cleared that up. And
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 1: what do you now know?
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 2: What do you now know or maybe even what did
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 2: you have to do?
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 1: Have you ever changed your mind? Have you ever done
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 1: a 180 on something?
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 3: I continue to change.
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 4: I continue to change many things and I continue to
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 4: thrive to improve.
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 3: I learned to trust less, which is sad.
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, right.
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 3: And I learned to.
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 1: Sometimes prudent though, right? Sometimes it's... Yes, yes.
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 2: Trusting quickly doesn't prove to be a great outcome all
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 2: the time.
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 4: And one thing that I learned, which may be very,
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 4: very misinterpreted, but people who get things for free take
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 4: it for granted and may not appreciate it. I think
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 4: every one of us should pay for what we.
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 3: Ask for.
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 4: And it is very, very unfortunate that you see if
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 4: you get things given to you, you don't appreciate it.
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 1: Okay?
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 3: You need to earn things.
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 1: With that in mind, this is– don't get mad at me.
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 1: With that in mind, Rob.
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 3: I would never get mad at anyone.
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 1: Don't get mad at me.
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 2: The juxtaposition of what you went through, all this pain,
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 2: all this suffering, now you have these six gorgeous kids
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 2: that don't have to deal with any of the stuff
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 2: you dealt with that are being raised in, you know, relative.
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 3: Luxury.
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 1: Not luxury, but you know what I mean?
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 2: How do you, like, do you feel sometimes like trying to,
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 2: do you ever feel like saying to your kids, you
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 2: don't understand how good you've got it?
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 1: You don't, is there any of that?
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah, of course. Of course there is a lot of that.
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 4: But, you know, we have, I believe that I have
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 4: done a good job in raising these children with their mothers.
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 4: And they have done a great job in teaching these.
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 3: Children the value of life.
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 4: None of my kids have, I mean, look, my duty
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 4: in life is to provide them with the best education.
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 3: Okay. And set them on the right path.
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 4: Get them to be productive human beings that do not
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 4: take advantage of, uh, uh, of the world.
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 3: Okay. And be positive impact in the society. That's very important.
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 4: And I can say proudly that, uh, my older boys
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 4: who have, you know, uh, been released from, uh, the
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 4: education and, and now they are, uh, finding their path.
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 4: None of them, um, uh, take any drugs. They, they
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 4: good boys. They are very disciplined very polite they clean
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 4: their dishes sometimes and um okay and they're not pig's
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 4: eyes so um And so that's one step in the
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 4: right direction. And hopefully one day they will be able to,
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 4: you know, run a family the way my father tried
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 4: to teach me. Well, mind you, my father never told
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 4: me not to smoke, not to drink alcohol, not to
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 4: be with women. He never put me in that position.
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 4: He taught me about Islam, Christianity and Judaism. And when
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 4: I reached puberty, he said, what do you choose? And
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 4: I said, well, they all look the same. You know,
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 4: choose my own path. I'll take a path. I'll take
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 4: a pass, basically. But I was never forced or told
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 4: not to do anything. On the other hand, my mom
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 4: used to say, well, if you do this, I will
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 4: beat you if you do that.
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 3: And she was the tough one.
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 4: But my father always looked at things in a very
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 4: pragmatic and very logical way. And you say, well, for
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 4: every action, there is a counteraction. And if you do
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 4: something stupid, you'll be punished for it. That's what happens.
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 2: Well, Prof, like all of us, you've got a few
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 2: things wrong, but you seem to have got a lot
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 2: more right. So now don't forget the evolution of 982.
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 2: You heard it here, everyone. So when that comes out,
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 2: you know that I'm the reason. You know I'm the
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 2: compelling force behind that.
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 4: Well, actually, if you don't mind, as you said it,
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 4: and now I'm thinking– Username, if I'm entitled to use
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 4: a name, will be the resurrection of 982. But you
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 4: take the credit for that.
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 1: Speaking of religious, there you go.
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 2: Now, is there anything you want to point our listeners towards,
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 2: a website, a book, anything?
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 1: Do you want to?
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 4: Look, I just want to say, look. Do good with
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 4: your life. And I think Walking Free is a good
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 4: historic book. It's a good book to read and stay
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 4: tuned for my next book. And I wish that if
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 4: everyone treats people the way they want to be treated,
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 4: then the world will be a better place.
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 1: You heard it here, the resurrection of 982.
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 2: We'll say goodbye off air, but Munjid, for the moment,
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for being on the You Project.
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 2: This was a delight for me, truly.
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 1: My pleasure.
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 2: I interview lots of people, but this was amazing. So
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 2: we'll say goodbye off air, but for now, thanks so much.
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 3: Thanks very much, Greg. Lovely chatting to you.