Latest / Daniel and Kelly’s Extraordinary Universe / Will the Higgs-Boson destroy the universe?

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Will the Higgs-Boson destroy the universe? · Daniel and Kelly’s Extraordinary Universe

0:08
Speaker 1: Hey, Daniel, I know you're probably sick of talking about this.
0:12
Speaker 1: What's coming? Are you sure the LHC, the large Hatron
0:16
Speaker 1: collider that you work on, is not going to destroy
0:19
Speaker 1: the planet Earth for the last time. There's no chance
0:24
Speaker 1: that the LHC will create a black hole that then
0:26
Speaker 1: gobbles up the Earth, not even a little You're not worried,
0:29
Speaker 1: even a little bit, like it's not even a possibility.
0:32
Speaker 1: The thing is, we don't worry about small things like
0:34
Speaker 1: destroying the Earth. It gets particle physicists worried is things
0:38
Speaker 1: like destroying the entire universe. Hi. I'm more hammy cartoonist
0:57
Speaker 1: and the creator of PhD comics. Hi. I'm Daniel Whitson.
1:01
Speaker 1: I'm a particle physicist. I have not yet destroyed the
1:04
Speaker 1: universe yet. Is how you introduce yourself every time? Hi
1:08
Speaker 1: am Daniel. I have not yet destroyed all of existence.
1:11
Speaker 1: That's right, and that's true about everybody. And if you're
1:13
Speaker 1: listening to this podcast, and that is proof that the
1:15
Speaker 1: universe still exists, that's right. Our word, every word we
1:20
Speaker 1: speak should be a word of comfort that the universe
1:23
Speaker 1: is still at least where you are still happening. That's right,
1:26
Speaker 1: and always somebody's Internet goes out, they're going to think
1:28
Speaker 1: the universe's ending, right, what's going on? That's why somebody's
1:33
Speaker 1: listening to usn't it? That's right? But if folks remember,
1:38
Speaker 1: a WiFi interruption is not the end of the universe.
1:40
Speaker 1: You will survive. It's the end at the end of
1:43
Speaker 1: my universe, Daniel. If somebody's WiFi goes out, do we
1:47
Speaker 1: stop existing because they don't hear it anymore? Well, we
1:49
Speaker 1: got deep in the philosophy all of us. Oh my goodness, Well,
1:52
Speaker 1: welcome to our podcast. Daniel and Jorge. Do not destroy
1:55
Speaker 1: the universe yet, or at least explain how we're not
1:59
Speaker 1: destroying the universe. A production of I Heart Radio. That's right,
2:02
Speaker 1: our podcast in which we think about things big and small.
2:05
Speaker 1: We explore the universe. We find the craziest, most mind
2:08
Speaker 1: blowing facts, and we explain them to you in a
2:10
Speaker 1: way that makes you chuckle a little bit and also
2:13
Speaker 1: come away with some deep understanding of your context of
2:16
Speaker 1: your existence. And sometimes we talk about the really small
2:20
Speaker 1: things that can maybe destroy the really big things in
2:23
Speaker 1: the universe. One of my favorite things about physics is
2:26
Speaker 1: when you learn something new and you discover Wow, the
2:29
Speaker 1: universe is like a little more fragile than I thought.
2:32
Speaker 1: What do you mean, well, like, how old were you
2:35
Speaker 1: or what did you think the first time you learned that,
2:37
Speaker 1: Like the Earth that we live on is just this
2:40
Speaker 1: like thin crust of rock floating on a massive ocean
2:43
Speaker 1: of lava. Right, all of a sudden, there doesn't feel
2:47
Speaker 1: so stable to me. Right, wow, I think I learned
2:50
Speaker 1: that just now, Daniel. Thank you for totally giving me
2:53
Speaker 1: anxieties now, or that I hadn't been enough before, or
2:56
Speaker 1: like that our atmosphere, right is this very thin shell
3:00
Speaker 1: of gas surrounding a huge planet. It could easily just
3:02
Speaker 1: get like blown away by some cataclysmic you know, solar
3:06
Speaker 1: flare or something. Wow. Um, I hadn't thought about those things,
3:11
Speaker 1: but thank you. Yeah. So, sometimes you learn something about
3:13
Speaker 1: the university gives you context. It helps you understand that
3:16
Speaker 1: our situation here is maybe an accident or is the
3:20
Speaker 1: product of the particular arrangements of things, and and so
3:23
Speaker 1: physics tells you like what's stable about the universe, what's
3:26
Speaker 1: dangerous about the universe, what you should worry about, and
3:29
Speaker 1: what you shouldn't worry about. Yeah, so it's not just
3:31
Speaker 1: the Earth that is sort of in a precarious balance.
3:34
Speaker 1: It's also I mean, you're you're saying it's also reality itself. Possibly, Yeah,
3:40
Speaker 1: you know, as we peel back layers of reality, you
3:42
Speaker 1: understand how the universe works. Sometimes we discover things like, oh, well,
3:46
Speaker 1: this seems to be sort of an accident, you know,
3:48
Speaker 1: and we never know whether things really are an accident
3:51
Speaker 1: or whether it's due to some sort of deeper understanding.
3:53
Speaker 1: Like something we've talked about before is the relationship between
3:57
Speaker 1: like the electron and the proton, Right, the charge of
4:00
Speaker 1: those two particles exactly balanced, which means we can have
4:03
Speaker 1: hydrogen atoms and chemistry and physics and bananas and all
4:06
Speaker 1: sorts of good stuff. We don't know if that's an accident, right,
4:08
Speaker 1: We don't know why that's that way. It's essential for
4:11
Speaker 1: life to happen, but we don't know if it's that
4:13
Speaker 1: way for a reason or if it's a coincidence. And
4:15
Speaker 1: so sometimes we stumble across other things like that that
4:18
Speaker 1: seems essential for life to be the way we wanted,
4:20
Speaker 1: but maybe accidental and may also not be permanent. Yeah,
4:25
Speaker 1: and so one of those things is something that you
4:27
Speaker 1: might be familiar with. We're hoping if you're a listener
4:30
Speaker 1: of our podcast, and so today on the program, we
4:32
Speaker 1: will be asking the question will the Higgs boson destroy
4:41
Speaker 1: the universe? And I like the way you phrase that
4:44
Speaker 1: because it means if the universe does get destroyed, it's
4:46
Speaker 1: the Higgs Boson's fault. Our particle physicist is going to
4:50
Speaker 1: destroy the Blame it on the boson. Oh, I'm sorry,
4:53
Speaker 1: I meant um, I meant to blame you. Daniel Whiteson
4:58
Speaker 1: going to destroy the universe. Now I hear government agents
5:01
Speaker 1: knocking on my door on your podcast from my Heart Radio,
5:05
Speaker 1: Daniel Moore destroyed the universe. Yeah, so this is a
5:08
Speaker 1: question that I think it was all over the news
5:11
Speaker 1: back when they were looking for the Higgs boson. Everyone
5:14
Speaker 1: was worried and concerned that that you guys in Geneva
5:18
Speaker 1: at cern we're maybe gonna do something in your experiment
5:21
Speaker 1: that was going to cause our demise of the Earth,
5:24
Speaker 1: Like maybe you were gonna unlock something in the universe
5:28
Speaker 1: that was going to swallow us all up and destroy
5:31
Speaker 1: the planet. That's right, This sort of two totally different
5:34
Speaker 1: but both devastating concerns. Right. One is when you collide
5:38
Speaker 1: to protons, could you trigger really strong gravity and make
5:41
Speaker 1: microscopic black hole which could then eat stuff around it
5:44
Speaker 1: and grow and eat the whole earth. Yeah, that's what
5:47
Speaker 1: That's what people were. People were trying to shut you down. Yeah,
5:50
Speaker 1: people sued the LHC. There was like court cases. We
5:52
Speaker 1: have to like prove in court if this is something
5:54
Speaker 1: reasonable to do. And for those of you suddenly worried
5:57
Speaker 1: out there, there's no danger. These kind of collisions that
6:01
Speaker 1: we do the LHC happen all the time. Particles from
6:03
Speaker 1: space hit the Earth and hit the Sun, and they
6:05
Speaker 1: do not create black holes that gobble the Earth. So
6:09
Speaker 1: we are feel like that that's a thin excuse. Daniel.
6:12
Speaker 1: You're like, look, everyone else around this has nuclear bombs,
6:15
Speaker 1: so therefore we should be able to tinker with one,
6:18
Speaker 1: no problem. Well, you know, actually when people set off
6:21
Speaker 1: the first nuclear bomb, they were worried, right they were
6:23
Speaker 1: where they might ignite the atmosphere and that was a
6:26
Speaker 1: serious concern, but they did it anyway. But now that
6:28
Speaker 1: they've done it, we know pretty well that blowing up
6:31
Speaker 1: a nuclear bomb doesn't ignite the atmosphere. Well, I think
6:34
Speaker 1: they did it in secret. That was the key. You
6:36
Speaker 1: guys were doing it in the public public eye. I
6:38
Speaker 1: always wonder like, did the physicists tell the government agents
6:41
Speaker 1: that that was a risk. You know, they have to
6:43
Speaker 1: fill out a form, you know, like, oh, if you're
6:44
Speaker 1: going to potentially ignite the atmosphere, please fill out this form,
6:49
Speaker 1: Please fill out this r IB. That's right. Yeah, But
6:53
Speaker 1: so that's a concern number one, which is not something
6:55
Speaker 1: worry about. We thought about the physics. We are not
6:57
Speaker 1: going to create a black hole which destroys the Earth.
6:59
Speaker 1: We might a black hole, but it would evaporate very rapidly.
7:02
Speaker 1: I think it's all sorts of fascinating insights about the universe. Right,
7:06
Speaker 1: So you're saying the atmosphere creates black holes all the time.
7:08
Speaker 1: It's not that different than what you do. And even
7:11
Speaker 1: if you do make one, it's going to evaporate. That's right,
7:13
Speaker 1: because these tiny black holes will disappear, they'll evaporate because
7:16
Speaker 1: they'll radiate away very quickly. That's the theory at least.
7:19
Speaker 1: And you're you're pretty sure about that. I'm pretty sure
7:21
Speaker 1: about that. Yes. I mean, my family lives on Earth,
7:23
Speaker 1: so I'm risking my family by keeping the l e
7:26
Speaker 1: C running. And I'm pretty confident well, I've seen you
7:29
Speaker 1: say that you would risk a lot to answer answer
7:31
Speaker 1: is about the universe? That's true, Yeah, I would sacrifice
7:34
Speaker 1: a good fraction of humanity. You get to talk to aliens,
7:38
Speaker 1: but not my family fraction. Which fraction to be talking about.
7:44
Speaker 1: But there's a totally separate concern about whether or not
7:48
Speaker 1: the Earth will get destroyed, but actually whether we could
7:50
Speaker 1: trigger a cataclysmic event which fundamentally changes the nature of
7:54
Speaker 1: the universe. So it involved the Higgs boson. And so
7:57
Speaker 1: you're telling me the Higgs boson might destroy the universe?
8:00
Speaker 1: Is this something that everyone knows? Do you think there
8:03
Speaker 1: was some press about it a while ago? But I
8:06
Speaker 1: was curious, like, are people worried that the Higgs boson
8:09
Speaker 1: might destroy the universe? Do people even remember what the
8:11
Speaker 1: Higgs is? Because it's been a little while since I
8:13
Speaker 1: got pressed, and you know, stuff has happened since then. Um,
8:17
Speaker 1: And so I was curious, do everyday people worry about
8:19
Speaker 1: whether I'm going to ruin the universe? So I've run
8:22
Speaker 1: out and asked them. So, as usual, Daniel went out
8:26
Speaker 1: and asked people on the street if if they think
8:29
Speaker 1: the Higgs boson will destroy the universe. So think about
8:32
Speaker 1: it for a second. If you have maybe heard of
8:34
Speaker 1: this news item, or if you have thought about the
8:37
Speaker 1: Higgs boson and the precariousness of nature, think about it
8:41
Speaker 1: for a second. What would you answer if you were asked,
8:44
Speaker 1: will the Higgs boson destroy the universe? Here's what people
8:47
Speaker 1: had to say. Do you worry about the Higgs boson
8:49
Speaker 1: destroying the universe? I don't have anything to back that up. No,
8:53
Speaker 1: I don't worry about yet. Maybe because the unknown. Have
8:56
Speaker 1: you ever heard of the Higgs boson? Me on? Real
9:00
Speaker 1: dumb right now? I have a lot of existential warries,
9:05
Speaker 1: but not that one um nowadays. Okay, the last name
9:09
Speaker 1: Higgs sounds familiar, but now alright, So people don't seem
9:12
Speaker 1: very concerned. I think it sounds like mostly out of
9:15
Speaker 1: because they didn't know that the Higgs boson could destroy
9:17
Speaker 1: the universe. No, and a lot of people hadn't even
9:20
Speaker 1: heard of the Higgs boson, which may felt like physics
9:23
Speaker 1: has relaxed too much. We had our big thing with
9:26
Speaker 1: the Higgs boson. We gotta get back in the news
9:29
Speaker 1: because he gets forgotten us get on that branding. That's right,
9:33
Speaker 1: Where is the PR Department? I gotta talk to them. Now.
9:35
Speaker 1: People weren't really very familiar with the Higgs, and nobody
9:38
Speaker 1: was worried that the Higgs boson would destroy the universe,
9:41
Speaker 1: at least until I asked them this question. And then
9:43
Speaker 1: they started googling it, and now maybe they're a little worried.
9:46
Speaker 1: So okay, so you're telling me, Daniel that the Higgs,
9:48
Speaker 1: something about the Higgs boson could potentially destroy the universe.
9:52
Speaker 1: So let's let's let's step through it. First of all, um,
9:56
Speaker 1: let's maybe recap for our listeners what the Higgs boson is. Yeah,
10:00
Speaker 1: so the Higgs boson is a particle we discovered at
10:02
Speaker 1: the LHC in twelve. It's the last particle ever found
10:06
Speaker 1: so far, and it completes the standard model and it
10:08
Speaker 1: answered a really interesting question, which is where does mass
10:12
Speaker 1: come from? We talked on this podcast what is a particle?
10:15
Speaker 1: And we think of them as these little dots in space,
10:17
Speaker 1: but you have to ask, like, where is the mass
10:19
Speaker 1: of the particle of something is a tiny dot? Where
10:21
Speaker 1: does it get its mass? And it's not so much
10:24
Speaker 1: about like where where does it come from or what
10:26
Speaker 1: gets it's it's more like particles have this thing and
10:30
Speaker 1: it's more like how does how does it manifest itself
10:33
Speaker 1: in the universe, Like, how do we what gives you
10:34
Speaker 1: that feeling of mass? Yeah, and it's also a question
10:37
Speaker 1: of patterns, like we look at all the particles and
10:39
Speaker 1: they all have different masses. You know, this one is
10:41
Speaker 1: a lot, this one is a little, but they're all
10:43
Speaker 1: the same size, so it's not like they have more
10:45
Speaker 1: stuff to them. So we're wondering, like, why do these
10:48
Speaker 1: particles have this mass and this particle of the other mass.
10:50
Speaker 1: For example, we talked on another podcast about the weak
10:54
Speaker 1: nuclear force and electromagnetism, which are fundamentally the same thing,
10:58
Speaker 1: but the weak nuclear force is really weak because the
11:01
Speaker 1: particles that carry it have a lot of mass, and
11:04
Speaker 1: the photon has no mass, which is why electromagnetism is
11:07
Speaker 1: so powerful. So this is sort of the question that
11:10
Speaker 1: led to the discovery of the Higgs, is why some
11:12
Speaker 1: of these particles have mass and some of them don't.
11:14
Speaker 1: What's the mechanism there? And it turns out the answer
11:18
Speaker 1: is this Higgs field, this invisible thing that fills space
11:22
Speaker 1: and interacts with some of these particles in different ways,
11:25
Speaker 1: and the Higgs boson is a manifestation of that field,
11:28
Speaker 1: Like when parts of that feel get really excited, that
11:31
Speaker 1: appears as like a ripple in that field, which we
11:33
Speaker 1: interpret as a Higgs boson. So there's two physical things,
11:36
Speaker 1: the field and the boson itself, which is the particle, right,
11:40
Speaker 1: and they were sort of discovered at different times, right,
11:43
Speaker 1: Like people physicists came up with the idea of the
11:46
Speaker 1: Higgs field first to kind of make all of the
11:49
Speaker 1: equations in the universe work. Dude named Higgs, Yeah, that
11:53
Speaker 1: makes sense. How do you feel about that naming choice there?
11:56
Speaker 1: I feel like we could do better, to be honest.
11:58
Speaker 1: I mean, Peter Haig, you know, he did this thing.
12:02
Speaker 1: He did his thing, and he deserves it. But you know,
12:04
Speaker 1: you might maybe call it the mass field. Would that
12:06
Speaker 1: be a better name? Yeah? I think that would be hard,
12:08
Speaker 1: to be more instructive, that would save you that explanation.
12:12
Speaker 1: The thing that gives things mad. Just called the mass field,
12:15
Speaker 1: massive field, the mass giving field, Yeah, dessert field. Would
12:19
Speaker 1: you call it the desertion because that's what the that's
12:21
Speaker 1: what people immediately associate, I'm sure, um so yeah. So
12:27
Speaker 1: so it is that the whole universe is premiered by
12:30
Speaker 1: this field, which is like, what would you describe a field?
12:33
Speaker 1: It's just kind of like a It's just like an
12:36
Speaker 1: aura of the out there, right, aura, Like I don't
12:39
Speaker 1: know how would you describe a field to somebody? That's
12:41
Speaker 1: a great question, man. The whole episode about what is
12:43
Speaker 1: a quantum field? And a field is just um, it's
12:46
Speaker 1: a physical thing has a value everywhere in space, like
12:50
Speaker 1: an electric field, right, is strong here and weak there.
12:53
Speaker 1: The gravitational field is strong here and weak there, and
12:55
Speaker 1: kind of like an aura. I don't know what it is.
12:59
Speaker 1: I mean I read about horrors and it's stronger here
13:01
Speaker 1: or stronger around you kind of thing. Or you can
13:04
Speaker 1: say an odor and odor is stronger here and not
13:07
Speaker 1: so strong there. Um such a small difference between or
13:10
Speaker 1: and order, that's right. But so a field is something
13:13
Speaker 1: we imagine is everywhere in the universe and has a
13:16
Speaker 1: different value at each location. Right, It's like part of
13:18
Speaker 1: the fabric of the universe. And would that be a
13:21
Speaker 1: good way to say it's like one of the things
13:23
Speaker 1: that make up the universe. As long as you make
13:25
Speaker 1: that hand gesterre when you say it, you know, that
13:26
Speaker 1: makes it look all dramatic that our listeners can't see
13:29
Speaker 1: then yes, I agree, it's part of the fabric of
13:31
Speaker 1: the Yes. Great. And the Higgs field is different from
13:34
Speaker 1: all the other fields we've ever discovered, right, because it's
13:38
Speaker 1: the one that um makes things have mass. Yeah, it's
13:44
Speaker 1: the one that makes things have mass. But that's not
13:46
Speaker 1: the only weird reason that it's different. It's different than
13:48
Speaker 1: the other fields because it's the only one that can't
13:51
Speaker 1: ever totally relax like it's it's a little tense, it's
13:54
Speaker 1: a little like worked up. You know, it needs a
13:57
Speaker 1: quantum fields, is what you're saying. I can't really the
14:01
Speaker 1: Higgs field can't chill, right, And we talked about this
14:03
Speaker 1: also in other episodes, like can space ever be empty?
14:06
Speaker 1: Because you imagine some like block of space out there,
14:09
Speaker 1: what's in it? Well, there are quantum fields, and those
14:12
Speaker 1: quantum fields mostly are relaxed. Like if there's no light
14:15
Speaker 1: in that block of space, then you imagine the electromagnetic
14:19
Speaker 1: field in that block of space is sort of at
14:21
Speaker 1: its lowest level. Right, It's as empty as possible. And
14:24
Speaker 1: you can argue philosophically about whether it can actually get
14:26
Speaker 1: to zero, whether there are quantum fluctuations around zero, but
14:29
Speaker 1: on average it's zero. So most fields can get down
14:32
Speaker 1: to zero. Okay, So you're saying that Higgs field is
14:35
Speaker 1: sort of um maybe um un stable, Like there's a
14:39
Speaker 1: certain buzz about it, like it's it's it's not it's
14:42
Speaker 1: not chowing out, it's like it's on a ten state. Yeah,
14:45
Speaker 1: And so there's two questions there is is it at zero?
14:48
Speaker 1: And is its stable? Right? So the Higgs field is
14:51
Speaker 1: not at zero like the lowest level of the Higgs
14:54
Speaker 1: field all the way through the universe, that every part
14:56
Speaker 1: in space is not at zero energy. It's sort of
14:59
Speaker 1: stuck at the This decision has this internal tension to
15:02
Speaker 1: it that makes it like to hang out at a
15:04
Speaker 1: place that's not at zero. And if you think that's weird,
15:08
Speaker 1: how can something relax when it's not a zero Imagine
15:11
Speaker 1: like a lake in a mountain, right, water likes to
15:13
Speaker 1: flow down, but sometimes he gets stuck. Right, The configuration
15:17
Speaker 1: of the mountains around it means that water relaxes in
15:20
Speaker 1: the top of a mountain. You would like to flow
15:22
Speaker 1: down to the sea if it could get there, but
15:24
Speaker 1: it's happy to just stay there stably for a long time.
15:27
Speaker 1: In a mountain lake, you say, like an alledge, like
15:30
Speaker 1: you're happy on a ledge. You could go down further
15:33
Speaker 1: to relax, but that would be effort to get out
15:36
Speaker 1: of your ledge. That's right, exactly, you have to go
15:37
Speaker 1: up first, right, So the Higgs field relaxes and it
15:40
Speaker 1: gets stuck in this local minimum, which is above zero energy.
15:44
Speaker 1: So the Higgs field is different from all the other
15:47
Speaker 1: fields in the universe, and that when it relaxes, he
15:49
Speaker 1: gets stuck in this sort of local minimum, doesn't go
15:51
Speaker 1: all the way down to zero. It's called a vacuum
15:53
Speaker 1: expectation value. And it's fascinating issue with that name. Also,
15:58
Speaker 1: and that's the reason why I, the W and the
16:01
Speaker 1: z boson have mass and the photon doesn't, because the
16:03
Speaker 1: Higgs has a non zero vacuum expectation value. And so
16:07
Speaker 1: and that's the clue that generated the whole idea of
16:09
Speaker 1: the Higgs. People like, this is really weird. Why does
16:12
Speaker 1: this thing massive? This thing not? How could you explain that, Well,
16:15
Speaker 1: you'd have to have some really weird field that couldn't
16:18
Speaker 1: relax to zero. That was the genesis of the whole idea.
16:21
Speaker 1: That's why we thought of the Higgs. That's the thing
16:23
Speaker 1: about it that gave us the clue to discover it
16:26
Speaker 1: right to like explain the particles that we see. We
16:29
Speaker 1: need um to come up with a field that can't relax. Yeah, exactly,
16:34
Speaker 1: it suck and you went out and you found it.
16:37
Speaker 1: Then that's where the Higgs boson comes from. Me. It's
16:38
Speaker 1: like the manifestation of the field. It's evidence of the
16:42
Speaker 1: field exists. It's evidence of the field exists because the
16:44
Speaker 1: field could also go up. Right, it doesn't just have
16:46
Speaker 1: to stay at at the lowest but non zero value.
16:49
Speaker 1: It can go up and when it gets excited, because
16:51
Speaker 1: you create energy density in one spot, you can create
16:53
Speaker 1: a Higgs boson temporarily. So the Higgs boson, as you say,
16:56
Speaker 1: is evidence that the field exists. All right. So that's
17:00
Speaker 1: the Higgs field, And you're telling me that there's something
17:02
Speaker 1: about its inability to relax that might cause the universe
17:07
Speaker 1: two destroy itself, to disappear. Yes, And I'm loving your
17:11
Speaker 1: use of the passive voice there the universe to destroy itself.
17:14
Speaker 1: I'd rather than Daniel destroys. Well, you are the universe
17:18
Speaker 1: to me, Daniels, we are all one, We are all
17:22
Speaker 1: the universe. Well, let's get into how that can cause
17:24
Speaker 1: the universe. How Daniel can call it the universe to destroy,
17:28
Speaker 1: to be destroyed. Better give me what I want or
17:31
Speaker 1: I'll destroy the universe. So you've given me a lot
17:33
Speaker 1: of power here. We're gonna have some discussions here, but
17:35
Speaker 1: first let's take a quick break, all right, Daniel, we're
17:51
Speaker 1: talking about the Higgs field and the Higgs boson, and
17:54
Speaker 1: you're telling me that it's something that is kind of
17:57
Speaker 1: embedded in the fabric of the universe and gives things mass,
18:00
Speaker 1: but it's sort of not maybe stable. It's like maybe
18:03
Speaker 1: at a sort of heightened, kind of buzzy tense state. Yeah,
18:07
Speaker 1: And we don't know very precisely sort of what the
18:09
Speaker 1: shape of this mountain that it's resting in. Like, we
18:12
Speaker 1: know that it's in a place that's stay somewhat stable
18:15
Speaker 1: because it's been sticking around and you know, things have
18:17
Speaker 1: been going on for a long time. We don't think
18:19
Speaker 1: in the last billion years the physics has changed fundamentally, um, right, So,
18:23
Speaker 1: but we don't have we don't have enough precise measurements
18:26
Speaker 1: about sort of parameters of the universe to know exactly
18:29
Speaker 1: the shape of that mountain. So it could be that
18:32
Speaker 1: it's in a really pretty stable spot. I mean, it
18:34
Speaker 1: might still be stuck up on a ledge. But it
18:37
Speaker 1: might be the the sort of the edges of that lag,
18:39
Speaker 1: the lip of that ledge that it would have to
18:40
Speaker 1: go over to get down to the bottom, are really
18:43
Speaker 1: tall and sharp, in which case it's basically never going
18:46
Speaker 1: to get out of it, Like it's a lake surrounded
18:48
Speaker 1: by really really tall mountains, and so there's no way
18:51
Speaker 1: that water is going to come down to the ocean.
18:53
Speaker 1: That's right. That's one scenario, right, Or it might be
18:56
Speaker 1: that sort of meta stable that like there's a part
18:59
Speaker 1: of that edge that's a kind of shallow and not
19:02
Speaker 1: very tall, and it might sort of like slop over
19:04
Speaker 1: the edge and flow down to the ocean. And so
19:07
Speaker 1: we're trying to figure that out. Oh, I see, it's
19:10
Speaker 1: not in your equation models. It's in the models, and
19:14
Speaker 1: but there's uncertainty, right, the shape of that sort of potential,
19:17
Speaker 1: which is defined by various other pieces of knowledge, like
19:20
Speaker 1: the mass of the top cork and the mass of
19:22
Speaker 1: the w boson. We measure those things, and we measure
19:25
Speaker 1: them pretty precisely. And the funny thing is that it
19:28
Speaker 1: puts the shape it's like ride on the edge, like
19:31
Speaker 1: on our current level of knowledge, this Higgs field is
19:34
Speaker 1: like very close to the edge between being stable and
19:37
Speaker 1: being meta stable, so we're not exactly sure, right, It's like, wait,
19:42
Speaker 1: what's the difference between stable and meta stable? Stable would
19:44
Speaker 1: mean like the lip is high enough that's never going
19:46
Speaker 1: to get out, and metal stables like it got stuck
19:49
Speaker 1: there for a while, but it's gonna eventually bounce out
19:52
Speaker 1: to go down to the ocean. Oh, I see, not
19:54
Speaker 1: super stable. Not super stable. So we don't know very
19:57
Speaker 1: precisely the shape of that lip, and so we can
20:00
Speaker 1: can't really say with great confidence how stable it is. Okay, So, um,
20:05
Speaker 1: I guess the question is, um, what would happen if
20:09
Speaker 1: the Higgs field gets out of this pseudo stable state.
20:14
Speaker 1: That's when you're saying bad news might happen, the ultimate
20:18
Speaker 1: bad news, the ultimately bad news. And you might be thinking,
20:21
Speaker 1: I didn't even really know the Higgs boson existed. I
20:23
Speaker 1: didn't really think about it. I don't care. Why should
20:25
Speaker 1: that affect me at all? Right, I never use Higgs bosons.
20:28
Speaker 1: I don't buy them at the store. The price is
20:30
Speaker 1: not going to change. But remember that this field underlies
20:33
Speaker 1: basically everything. I mean, the fact that the Higgs boson
20:37
Speaker 1: has the minimum it does, which is above zero. Is
20:40
Speaker 1: the reason why ws and zs have mass, and it's
20:43
Speaker 1: the reason that all the fundamental particles have the mass
20:46
Speaker 1: they do. Right. So, for example, so if anything, basically
20:50
Speaker 1: you're saying that, if anything changes about it, we would
20:53
Speaker 1: have a totally different universe. We would have a totally
20:55
Speaker 1: different universe with different basically different laws of physics. For example,
21:00
Speaker 1: I would weigh less. Possibly you wouldn't even really exist anymore.
21:05
Speaker 1: I mean, all your particles, all the masses of all
21:08
Speaker 1: the particles would change, so the electron would have a
21:10
Speaker 1: different mass, would have a different mass, Like we don't
21:13
Speaker 1: even know in that case, if corks could confine into
21:16
Speaker 1: stable particles, or if they would be free so we
21:19
Speaker 1: have protons, we don't know if we'd have stable atoms.
21:22
Speaker 1: The strengths of the forces would change, because if the
21:25
Speaker 1: W and Z aren't massless, all of a sudden, the
21:27
Speaker 1: weak force not so weak anymore. Well, it would be
21:30
Speaker 1: a totally different universe. But I mean, it wouldn't be
21:33
Speaker 1: better or worse, would just be different. We wouldn't be
21:36
Speaker 1: in it. It would be if somebody could argue that
21:41
Speaker 1: that's worse, I'm pretty sure that for us, But but
21:44
Speaker 1: what about for the Horian Daniel and that orhand Daniel prime.
21:48
Speaker 1: They would probably they're waiting to get on the stage.
21:51
Speaker 1: They're lighter, they're probably you know, more electric. I don't know. No,
21:54
Speaker 1: you basically start from zero and build the universe up again,
21:57
Speaker 1: and you have totally different I mean, it's not like
21:59
Speaker 1: we're changing this beat of light, right. Um, we're not
22:02
Speaker 1: changing the universe in that's in the multiverse sense. We're
22:04
Speaker 1: like picking totally new laws. But the parameters are changing.
22:07
Speaker 1: The masses are changing, which affects everything downstream. Right, how
22:12
Speaker 1: things come together, how they form bonds, how they make atoms. Um,
22:17
Speaker 1: everything would be totally different, right, the fabric would would
22:20
Speaker 1: you're saying the fabric of the universe would unravel or
22:23
Speaker 1: would just change where it's a totally different cardigan. It
22:26
Speaker 1: would be a totally we don't even know if you
22:28
Speaker 1: could make a card again, right, Like what could you?
22:31
Speaker 1: I mean, it would be very hard to go from
22:34
Speaker 1: here's the description of the fundamental nature of the universe
22:36
Speaker 1: as we have it now and then predict chemistry and
22:39
Speaker 1: biology and like that would be hard, you know, yeah, currently,
22:43
Speaker 1: and so to say let's change those laws and then
22:45
Speaker 1: try to understand what the universe would look like. That's
22:48
Speaker 1: a hard problem. We know it would look totally different, right,
22:51
Speaker 1: so it would be dramatic. Is the Higgs boson the
22:54
Speaker 1: Higgs field change and you're saying it is, And we
22:57
Speaker 1: don't know if it's possible, if the Higgs yield can change,
23:01
Speaker 1: but there is sort of that possibility that it could,
23:04
Speaker 1: you know, um, jump out of those mountains and flow
23:07
Speaker 1: down to the ocean and then and when we would
23:10
Speaker 1: have a totally different Cardigan List universe. Yeah, exactly, everything
23:13
Speaker 1: that we know about the universe would be different. And
23:15
Speaker 1: that does seem like kind of a big deal. And
23:18
Speaker 1: you know, we made these measurements, were trying to understand it.
23:20
Speaker 1: We're trying to make better measurements to get a better
23:22
Speaker 1: sense of how stable this is. Right, And also there's
23:26
Speaker 1: the possibility that we just don't understand physics correctly. This
23:29
Speaker 1: is our current model pusiness, and it could be wrong.
23:32
Speaker 1: So it could be that like, hey, you know, there's
23:34
Speaker 1: some other physics that's preventing this from happening. And in
23:38
Speaker 1: a new theory of physics that better describes the universe,
23:40
Speaker 1: the Higgs is totally stable and this couldn't happen. But
23:43
Speaker 1: in our current understanding, the Higgs is not guaranteed to
23:46
Speaker 1: stay in its state, right, and you're saying that possibly
23:50
Speaker 1: maybe some of the things you're doing at the l
23:52
Speaker 1: C could maybe accidentally cause that change. What what do you?
23:56
Speaker 1: What do you? What are you trying to warn is about? Daniel?
23:59
Speaker 1: I'm uncomfortable with your changed to the active voice. Here.
24:02
Speaker 1: Can we return to the past, but Daniel and assume
24:05
Speaker 1: responsibility for what happens? Well, in the scenario where the
24:10
Speaker 1: Higgs field is not totally stable, it's meta stable, then
24:13
Speaker 1: you could ask, like, what could get it over that
24:15
Speaker 1: edge and down to the ocean to change the universe
24:18
Speaker 1: into a totally different Cardigan List universe right, without any
24:20
Speaker 1: bananas or anything. And we don't really know, but there
24:23
Speaker 1: are some ideas, right. Idea number one is what about
24:26
Speaker 1: random fluctuation? You know, we talked about, you know, quantum tunneling.
24:31
Speaker 1: You know, we talked about electrons in potential wells and
24:33
Speaker 1: there trapped because they can't go over the lip. But
24:35
Speaker 1: we talked about how they could get through, right, and
24:37
Speaker 1: they could tunnel through that barrier. This is sort of
24:39
Speaker 1: like water teleporting out of that lake and then flowing
24:42
Speaker 1: down the mountain. That's possible. And like the field itself
24:47
Speaker 1: could in some points in the universe um change, but
24:51
Speaker 1: then it would change back at one point in the
24:53
Speaker 1: universe would change. And the thing is if it changes
24:55
Speaker 1: at one point, then it sort of nucleates and it
24:57
Speaker 1: triggers this threshold where it makes this stuff around it unstable.
25:02
Speaker 1: So if any point in the universe UM does this,
25:05
Speaker 1: it spreads out sort of at the speed of light
25:07
Speaker 1: and spreads out across the universe, sort of like a
25:10
Speaker 1: water balloon. Right once you pop it in one spot,
25:12
Speaker 1: the rest of the spot is not going to hold
25:14
Speaker 1: the water. It's gone. Like if you get a little
25:16
Speaker 1: bit of the fields to relax, then that spreads like
25:22
Speaker 1: it holds the rest of the fields to relax. How
25:25
Speaker 1: do you know that? That's just what the math tells us.
25:28
Speaker 1: You know that these would spread, It would spread, yeah, um,
25:32
Speaker 1: And so you sort of kind of got to keep
25:34
Speaker 1: the field stable everywhere all the time, which is the
25:37
Speaker 1: kind of thing that makes me a little bit terrified.
25:40
Speaker 1: But the chance of this kind of tunneling, we've done
25:42
Speaker 1: the calculation, the chances of this kind of telling are
25:45
Speaker 1: very very small. According to our current understanding, it should
25:48
Speaker 1: happen once in about ten to the one hundred and
25:51
Speaker 1: thirty nine years ten with hundred and thirty nine zeros,
25:56
Speaker 1: which is a lot of zeros. Remember the universe's current
25:59
Speaker 1: age is ten to the ten years, so it's it's
26:03
Speaker 1: a very very long time, which means it's basically never
26:06
Speaker 1: going to happen. So that's not something to worry about. Well,
26:08
Speaker 1: let's talk about kind of what would happen if it happened.
26:11
Speaker 1: So you're saying that maybe something might cause it or someone,
26:15
Speaker 1: which we'll talk about next. Alien physicist, that's Alian Daniel
26:19
Speaker 1: Cardian worrying Alien Daniel. Um, why isn't it alien? Maybe
26:24
Speaker 1: the alien version of you as the physicist and I'm
26:27
Speaker 1: the cartoonist, in which case it wouldn't happen because you know,
26:31
Speaker 1: all horries are responsible, and it was responsible that was
26:35
Speaker 1: on deadline. At least they show up for the podcast.
26:40
Speaker 1: This is all I can say. Um, But so, um,
26:44
Speaker 1: let's say we did something here and it started to
26:47
Speaker 1: relax here on Earth, Like, what would happen, like the
26:50
Speaker 1: universe would collapse in at that point? Would it just
26:53
Speaker 1: be like a black hole? Expanding. What what the field?
26:57
Speaker 1: The field us through the Michael Baine movie in which
26:59
Speaker 1: this happens. That's the movie. Um no, you the field collapses,
27:06
Speaker 1: So physics changes at that point, and in the field
27:09
Speaker 1: around it collapses. In the field around it collapses, And
27:12
Speaker 1: so what's happening is that the laws of physics of
27:15
Speaker 1: the universe are not fixed. They would change as the
27:18
Speaker 1: field changes. Right, So, so like point one seconds into it,
27:21
Speaker 1: I had paused on my Blu ray player. What am
27:24
Speaker 1: I seeing in the special effects shot there? You know,
27:26
Speaker 1: I have no idea what this new form of the
27:29
Speaker 1: universe would look like, right, Like you know, what would
27:32
Speaker 1: how would light travel? What kind of other things would move?
27:35
Speaker 1: I have no conception of what it would be like
27:37
Speaker 1: to be in that universe, sort of new universe like
27:42
Speaker 1: zero state, Higgs field universe would spread at the speed
27:45
Speaker 1: of light. You get this pocket which grows and grows
27:46
Speaker 1: and grows, And I have no idea what would be
27:48
Speaker 1: like to be in that movie, like gas to spread
27:50
Speaker 1: at the speed of light, it spreads at the speed
27:52
Speaker 1: of light. Yeah, okay, so it would be a quick
27:54
Speaker 1: death for us, Yes, that's right. You wouldn't have time
27:56
Speaker 1: to panic and you can start panicking now pre panic.
28:00
Speaker 1: I'm Jewish, so I know that panicking actually works. Right,
28:03
Speaker 1: Worrying helps things the universe response to your aura of panic.
28:08
Speaker 1: It's the only thing think that can violate causality. Actually,
28:11
Speaker 1: if you worry now, worry it can change things that
28:15
Speaker 1: have already happened. Um, yeah, exactly. And one thing people
28:19
Speaker 1: worry about is maybe some very high density event I
28:23
Speaker 1: don't know, like colliding protons that near the speed of
28:26
Speaker 1: light might trigger my sort of like give enough energy
28:30
Speaker 1: to this thing that it slops over the edge and
28:33
Speaker 1: and gets out of this meta stable region zero. So
28:36
Speaker 1: if it happened here on Earth, I mean in a
28:39
Speaker 1: flash of light, basically we would be gone. Yeah, and
28:43
Speaker 1: we would in our place a totally be totally different
28:46
Speaker 1: universe that starts from scratch. You think, like you'd be
28:49
Speaker 1: like they're a big bang or something. I mean, still
28:51
Speaker 1: so our universe, but it's like the next version of it, right,
28:53
Speaker 1: Like bangs field is now a different state, and so
28:56
Speaker 1: physics is different, and so everything is different. It might
28:59
Speaker 1: be really boring univer verse, or might be really fascinating
29:01
Speaker 1: complex in the way that ours is. Right, it might
29:04
Speaker 1: even be more rich, like maybe you can do all
29:06
Speaker 1: sorts of crazy new kinds of physics we never imagined.
29:08
Speaker 1: But you know, our brains rely on this kind of physics,
29:12
Speaker 1: and so we couldn't really exist in that universe, you know,
29:15
Speaker 1: so we wouldn't ever really enjoy it. Um. But you
29:19
Speaker 1: know the same argument that suggests that we are not
29:23
Speaker 1: in danger of creating black holes that eat eat up
29:25
Speaker 1: the Earth, right, that similar collisions happen all the time
29:28
Speaker 1: and have not created black holes, That same argument can
29:30
Speaker 1: be applied here. All right, let's let's get into how
29:35
Speaker 1: physics may or may not cause this Michael bay movie
29:39
Speaker 1: to be become a reality that destroys reality. But first
29:43
Speaker 1: let's take another quick break. All right, So Daniel um
29:59
Speaker 1: steps three, How are are you going to destroy the universe? Well,
30:03
Speaker 1: first I'm gonna get a consulting fee from Michael Bay. Um,
30:06
Speaker 1: I want I want a writing credit on the script.
30:08
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, how much is that going to be worth
30:10
Speaker 1: when the universe no longer exists? Like, is it possible
30:14
Speaker 1: that as you're when you're colliding particles and and you know,
30:17
Speaker 1: creating many black holes that evaporate, but you know, in
30:21
Speaker 1: that sort of high energy collision, could you maybe trigger
30:26
Speaker 1: the Higgs field to start collapsing or not. And again, remember, folks,
30:31
Speaker 1: this is a theoretical concern. We don't know if this
30:33
Speaker 1: is real. Just sort of like we've done this calculation,
30:35
Speaker 1: we noticed this thing makes us wonder. Um, so there
30:39
Speaker 1: is the the sort of theoretical possibility that a high
30:42
Speaker 1: energy density event like that might trigger the Higgs field
30:45
Speaker 1: to relax into it's a true vacuum. But we have
30:49
Speaker 1: those kind of collisions all the time. It's the same
30:52
Speaker 1: argument that makes us feel safe about black holes also
30:55
Speaker 1: makes us feel pretty confident about the Higgs field collapsing
30:58
Speaker 1: because protons are hit protons in the atmosphere all the time.
31:01
Speaker 1: Remember at the same energy that you're doing it at
31:04
Speaker 1: the l YES and and at much higher energies. Remember
31:07
Speaker 1: that we have these crazy particles from space, cosmic rays
31:10
Speaker 1: that hit the atmosphere thousands of times the energy of
31:13
Speaker 1: collisions at the LHC. Really, and it's been doing that
31:16
Speaker 1: for billions of years. You're saying that if I look
31:19
Speaker 1: up in the sky out into space or at least
31:22
Speaker 1: or atmosphere, there are you know, there's like a thousand
31:25
Speaker 1: LHC's up there doing things that are much worse than
31:28
Speaker 1: what you guys are doing. Yeah, and remember, we don't
31:30
Speaker 1: know what's creating those particles. Is like another great mystery
31:33
Speaker 1: the universe is like what or who is creating these
31:37
Speaker 1: super high endured particles. But they are hitting the Earth
31:39
Speaker 1: and they've been doing it a lot. There's millions of
31:41
Speaker 1: them every year at much higher energies in the LHC.
31:45
Speaker 1: So if if there was a pretty good chance that
31:48
Speaker 1: one of those collisions would nucleate a relaxation at the
31:51
Speaker 1: Higgs field which spread at the speed of light, we're
31:53
Speaker 1: pretty sure what happened already, and we're pretty sure we're
31:56
Speaker 1: not increasing the danger by doing our little, tiny, dinky
32:00
Speaker 1: collisions in a relative to the alien ELC. I feel
32:03
Speaker 1: like you're telling me, like, look, everyone's vaping. If you vape,
32:08
Speaker 1: I'm sure if I vape, I'm sure that nothing bad
32:11
Speaker 1: will happen. Yeah. Look, they you know, they set off
32:13
Speaker 1: a nuclear bomb and they didn't even the atmosphere, so
32:16
Speaker 1: I'm sure ours won't be here you're saying. I think
32:19
Speaker 1: you're saying that, Uh, the evidence tells you that this
32:23
Speaker 1: is super low probability or maybe even impossible, because you know,
32:27
Speaker 1: there's l C is happening in the sky all the time,
32:30
Speaker 1: and I'm sure in other planets as well, all across
32:34
Speaker 1: the universe. And we are still here. We are still here. Yes,
32:37
Speaker 1: if you were listening to this podcast, then we have
32:39
Speaker 1: not yet destroyed the universe. Well that's good. That stop
32:46
Speaker 1: that you freak out, all right. So, um, So that's
32:52
Speaker 1: the question is is will the Higgs boson destroyed the universe?
32:56
Speaker 1: You're saying it's theoretically possible. Um, but so far, so good.
33:01
Speaker 1: That's right, And I wouldn't fold it into your plans.
33:04
Speaker 1: It's more of an intellectual curiosity. It's one of these
33:06
Speaker 1: things where we've learned something totally new about the universe, right,
33:10
Speaker 1: that this is weird field out there that has a
33:13
Speaker 1: little bit of tension in it, and that tension is
33:15
Speaker 1: what gives our universe. It's particular flavor that we're used to.
33:18
Speaker 1: And so we've learned that about the universe. And so
33:21
Speaker 1: we've learned sort of that we're like fluiding on this magma, right,
33:24
Speaker 1: that are maybe our lives are more precarious than we thought.
33:26
Speaker 1: On the other hand, the Earth's been around a long time, right,
33:30
Speaker 1: And while there are a few volcanic eruptions now and
33:32
Speaker 1: then people get gobbled by lava. Mostly you can go
33:34
Speaker 1: round your the existence and not worry about sinking into
33:38
Speaker 1: a lake of lava. And that's basically what you need
33:40
Speaker 1: to do here, is not worry that the universe is
33:42
Speaker 1: going to get destroyed by particle physicists or cartoons, or
33:46
Speaker 1: if it does happen, it'll be over at the speed
33:48
Speaker 1: of light, so why worry about that. It won't be
33:51
Speaker 1: painful either way. Yeah. Also, just as a reminder that
33:54
Speaker 1: if you are curious to know the universe has ended,
33:57
Speaker 1: there's always a website you can check, right, Daniel, That's right,
34:00
Speaker 1: it's u has the LHC destroyed the world yet? Dot com?
34:04
Speaker 1: And it's always kept up to date, we promise. All right, Well,
34:07
Speaker 1: I think it all points to again, just the idea
34:10
Speaker 1: of how precarious our universe is. You know, how lucky
34:14
Speaker 1: and how amazing it is if we are even here
34:18
Speaker 1: able to talk about these things and explain him to
34:21
Speaker 1: you guys out there. That's right. So you should enjoy
34:24
Speaker 1: that ice cream, you should take a deep breath of
34:26
Speaker 1: that fresh air. You should listen to your favorite podcast,
34:30
Speaker 1: and you should enjoy the universe because we don't know
34:32
Speaker 1: how long it will continue. Um but as we keep
34:35
Speaker 1: learning more and more about the universe, we discover amazing,
34:38
Speaker 1: crazy things about it, and some of those things a
34:41
Speaker 1: little bit scary. So go out there and live life.
34:44
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening. We hope you enjoyed that. See
34:47
Speaker 1: you next time, and please don't destroy the universe before
34:50
Speaker 1: the next podcast. What are you saying that to other
34:52
Speaker 1: people or to yourself? That's sort of a mental note,
34:58
Speaker 1: I feel stick you on your chest there wait until
35:01
Speaker 1: the next podcast, But I think it applies generally, so
35:05
Speaker 1: I think it's good advice for everyone to follow. Before
35:15
Speaker 1: you still have a question after listening to all these explanations,
35:19
Speaker 1: please drop us a line. We'd love to hear from you.
35:22
Speaker 1: You can find us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram at
35:25
Speaker 1: Daniel and Jorge That's one word, or email us at
35:28
Speaker 1: Feedback at Daniel and Jorge dot com. Thanks for listening,
35:32
Speaker 1: and remember that. Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe is
35:35
Speaker 1: a production of I Heart Radio. More podcast from my
35:38
Speaker 1: Heart Radio visit the I Heart Radio Apple podcasts or
35:42
Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Yeah,