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The American Christian · Head Shrink Inc.

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Hey everybody, Lady Luck here, and we're celebrating America's 250th birthday.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_01: Now, all summer long, I'm gonna be celebrating my playing on SpinQuest.com, which is an American-owned social casino.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: It obviously features over a thousand flop games and live blackjack, live crabs, live bubble crabs.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: Head on over to spinquest.com.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: Get yourself a$30 coin pack for just$10.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_05: SpinQuest is a free-to-play social casino.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_05: Where prohibited, visit spinquest.com for more details.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: KPDQ Portland, a service of Salem Media Group.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: Listen online at TrueTalk800.com.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_04: Welcome to the Dr.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_04: David Show with Dr.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_04: David Simonson, PhD LMFT.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_04: Dr.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_04: David is the guy with creative answers to your daily challenges with guest therapist and counselor Dan Bates.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_04: Listen live Tuesdays from 1 to 2 p.m.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_04: on True Talk 800 Radio and online at TrueTalk800.com.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_04: Got a question for Dr.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_04: David?
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_04: Call 1-800-845-2162 between 1 and 2 p.m.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_04: today.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_04: Email him at headstringinc at gmail.com and follow him on Facebook at DocDavid.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_04: And now here's Dr.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_04: David Simonson and the Dr.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_04: David Show.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_08: Hey, welcome to the Dr.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_08: David Show.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_08: I'm joined by my good friend and therapist, Dan Bates.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_08: He's going to be my co-host here with me.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_08: Because I like the guy.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_02: Who doesn't?
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_08: Um we could probably find somebody that doesn't like you, but it would be hard to do.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_08: I don't know the it would be really hard to do.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know them because I've cut them out out of my life.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_08: You've blocked them on Facebook.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_08: You block them on all social media exchanges.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_02: So my name's Dan Bates, right?
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_02: Have we introduced me?
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah, I just did.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_08: Oh, you did?
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_08: Oh.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_08: Welcome to the show, Dan Bates.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_02: I was expecting more.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_08: So let me talk about what the show is hopefully going to be about.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_08: So sometimes I think it's nice to be able to have somebody that you know that is an expert in their field that you can just call and say, hey, I just did this.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_08: Is this a bad or good thing?
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_02: I see what you did there.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_08: That was good.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_08: What did I do?
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_02: No, you brought it back.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_02: You brought it full circle.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_08: Thank you.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_02: That was that was beautiful.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_08: That was the point.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_08: So one of the main purposes of this show is to be a place that people can call in if they have relationship issues in your marriage, in your parenting, in your friend's friendship, um with your mother's mother-in-law, father-in-law, all sorts of relationship issues.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_08: Rather than paying the therapist anywhere from$90 to$150 to say, yes, this is what you need to do.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_08: You can call into this show and you talk to two seasoned therapists.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_08: I guarantee you that I will have an answer for you.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_08: You may not like it, but I guarantee you I will have a lot of things.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_02: So who is Dan Bates?
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_02: So my name is Dan Bates.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_02: I live in Vancouver, Washington.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_02: So I I'm a therapist.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: I've been practicing over five years.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_02: David and I have a working relationship, a friendship, if you will.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_02: We're bros.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_02: We enjoy each other's company.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_02: We did a podcast, so we're good.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_02: We're seasoned at just talking about nothing and filling hours of space with our own with us.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_02: Whether it's helpful or not or quality or not.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_02: And um, let's see what else.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_02: So I have a wife and a beautiful young, a beautiful wife and a beautiful daughter.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_02: I uh yeah, almost failed to mention how gorgeous my wife is and beautiful and transcendent.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_02: And then I have a amazing daughter, and my wife is also pregnant with baby number two.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_02: Woo-hoo.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_08: Wow.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah?
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_02: Bringing it home, bring on the children, building the family.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_08: Bring on the children.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_02: I love psychology, I love neuroscience.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_08: What's your education?
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_02: I have a bachelor's of science in psychology from was of, as I like to call it.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_02: Washington State University in Craig.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know, I didn't know what that was.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_02: I'm a Van Cougar.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, okay.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yeah.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_02: I have a master's in clinical mental health counseling from Western Seminary and a Master's of Ministry and Leadership.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_02: Chaplaincy specialization, also from Western.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_08: Okay, no, I thought that was interesting because what did you have to do to get that kind of specialization?
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_02: Apart from the education piece, uh internship, interning at a hospital doing chaplaincy work.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_02: So I I interned at Legacy Emanual here in Portland.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_02: Man, uh it was an amazing ride.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_02: I did it for almost four months of chaplaincy work.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_08: Was that um was that I know we've talked about it before, but I'm kind of uh curious, I mean, for our listeners, was that hard emotionally, that kind of being there three months and seeing all kinds of things?
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, the way I explained it, because uh you know, in counseling, counseling is very emotion-driven, right?
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah, but you and I uh we kind of see the same thing over and over again, just just because the nature of our our work, we do contract work, so we we kind of see the same constellation of problems repetitiously.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_02: As a chaplain though, going into the hospital, every single day it was something different and new which boggled my mind because there is no amount of preparation or feeling confident before you go into it to prepare for what what could happen.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_02: Because I mean I uh I went in and there was uh death of a grandparent or a shooting uh resulted in the death of a teen or someone just got life threatening uh you know medical answers on their disease.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_02: Every single day was different.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_02: I showed up and I you know in different roles too I would play.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_02: Like not just I'm here to give spiritual consultation and and help.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_02: But at some points I would play kind of like almost family liaison.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_02: Like a a famil a kid got life lighted in and massive injury parents from out of town.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_02: So I just hung out with that family, helped them process what was going on, and then figure out what they're gonna do for that night.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_02: Like got them a taxi, figured out the closest hotel that was in their price range, helped them get their stuff out of the room, uh, helped them communicate with the nursing staff, the medical staff, uh work with the social worker.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_02: So I mean at that point it wasn't like overtly spiritual, it was kind of almost just family advocate and playing support person.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_08: Dan coined the term American Christianity.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_08: So what give me some initial thoughts on what American Christianity is.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_02: I I'm sure we've seen this everywhere, you've seen it, I've seen it, and i I've seen it okay, I've seen it on TBN, I've seen it on Daystar, I've seen it on Fox News, I've seen it on CNN.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's proliferated everywhere.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_02: I hear This is Danielle Fischel.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_07: And Ryder Strong from Pod Meets World.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_07: When you have five and seven-year-old boys, I can promise you they love superheroes.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_07: Oh, it never goes away.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_07: Indy is 11 years old, and he's obsessed with comics, cartoons, video games, all of it.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_07: Adler and Keaton both have Spider-Man costumes, and if anything says Marvel on it, they are in.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_07: Same.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_07: Which is why we love Lingo Kids.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_07: They have Marvel Spider-Man activities that are totally age-appropriate.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_07: And safe, made just for the little ones.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_07: Plus Disney's Moana, Frozen's Utopia, all the characters your kids already love, and a few you're secretly hoping they'll get into.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_06: I just load up the iPads with Lingo Kids before a trip, and with over 4,000 interactive activities, songs, and shows, it keeps their attention for hours.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_07: Download Lingo Kids for free or go all in with Lingo Kids Plus for even more incredible content.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_06: Choose the yearly plan and save up to 60%.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_06: Search Lingo Kids in the App Store or Google Play.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_07: Lingo Kids, everything kids love.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_01: Hey everybody, Lady Luck here, and we're celebrating America's 250th birthday.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: Now, all summer long, I'm going to be celebrating by playing on spinquest.com, which is an American-owned social casino.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: It obviously features over a thousand slot games and live blackjack, live crabs, live bubble crafts.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: Head on over to spinquest.com.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: Get yourself a$30 coin pack for just$10.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_05: SpinQuest is a free-to-play social casino.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_05: Void where prohibited.com for more details.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_02: Even in the pulpit.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_02: And the idea is basically American Christianity is where American culture, ideology has kind of infiltrated and co-opted the Christian faith.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_02: Excuse me.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_02: And I think we see this crop up in so many places.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_02: This video is a great example where someone is responding to something or speaking out against something, and it's under the the guise of Christianity, but really the the the grounding or the justification or the presuppositions are more entrenched in American ideology than Christian faith.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_02: The case in point, he was going to defend his First Amendment right with a firearm.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_02: Now I think we were just kind of joking, but we were joking that obviously does not mesh with the Christian faith, right?
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_02: Because um and I I think these some more contemporary examples, Martin Luther King or or Gandhi, Mahatma Gandhi, are great examples of uh taking the the idea uh that Jesus used kind of in opposition to the Roman government of nonresistance, uh nonviolent non-resistance, basically, kind of civil disobedience, um for a greater cause.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_02: I I think both of them are great examples.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_02: The idea of like you're gonna defend your rights with a firearm versus you're going to um turn the turn the other cheek.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_02: Turn the other cheek or kind of be a witness to whoever's persecuting you through suffering, I think is more a Christian idea, and the defend your rights with your firearm is a American idea.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_08: Well I was thinking of back in I mean I'm just thinking of the absurd examples of you know during the Roman the Roman civilization.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_08: Hey, I'm a Christian, don't feed me to the lions.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_08: Um that's wrong, right?
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_08: I mean we're we're getting upset here in America because and I think I I struggle with it too because I I believe in the Constitution and so I believe that you know freedom I believe in freedom of religion.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_08: And so I do have I uh do have a fear that the government is slowly cracking down on the things that we can do and eventually hate speech and stuff will be a crime and and things like that.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_08: But I think we're so far like when this guy holds up his gun, it's so far removed from Christians during the Roman era that were being fed to lions and were actually being persecuted for their beliefs.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_08: Or even currently Christians in Islamic countries or Christians in China, yeah, that are actually being persecuted and put in jail because they have a Bible or something like that.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_02: And I think there I I've heard debate on this, but I think there can be a case made for it if you look at kind of historically we're areas where Christians are persecuted, usually the the Christian faith uh blossoms in that area.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_02: So why would we if that's true and I mean you can debate if that's true or not, but if that's true, why would we in this country where you know you hear it all the time, this is a this isn't a Christian nation anymore, we're post-Christian.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_02: So why would you resist persecution if it meant that that would m possibly lead back to a blossoming of of the faith, you know what I mean?
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_02: Like no, I'm gonna resist that persecution and stockpile all these weapons and you know uh start a rebellion for my rights and basically kind of undermined a a potential resurgence of of faith in in this country.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_08: Well I think it also this is I mean it just came to mind there's you know the whole vaccination debate right now that's going on.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_08: Like don't vaccinate, yes, vaccinate.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_08: And and a top uh phrase that people often use uh when they are being forced to vaccinate is people are uh making me violate my conscience.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_08: They're against my um religious views.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_08: And and so I I uh texted or I commented on a friend, I I think you're a friend with her as well, who's really into the anti-vaccine.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_08: And I said, What are what are your religious views that are are going against what that being vaccinated would go against, what religious views?
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_08: And she wouldn't respond to me.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_08: And I and I think it's because she thought I was trying to start an argument with her, and I wasn't, I was actually wanting to know what Christian views uh go against vaccination or or what does vaccination violate.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_08: And so I I did some research on it, and there was nothing in any faiths that go against um vaccinations.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_08: What she told me so she then pointed me to a website said some vaccines were st were used were they were created in the fifties, supposedly using abortion cells or something, aborted baby cells.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_08: But the vaccines they make now they came from that back in the fifties, but they're they don't have anything to do with abortion cells now.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_08: But because they were created back in the fifties that way, anything that came out of that is seen as bad.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_08: But then where do you stop that kind of logic, right?
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_08: So that means anything good that came out of a bad experiment or an unethical experiment isn't we shouldn't use today.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_08: So like there were some men that were um sp infected with syphilis back in some black men, I think.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_08: And there were things that came out of that that were beneficial to today.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_08: So that means okay, we don't use that stuff today.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_08: And so I think like this American Christianity is so weird.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_08: I even read an article with American versus European Christianity, how in America it's it's very um and I think I was talking with you a little bit about it last night, was that we don't we we talk about resourcefulness and about loving your neighbor and um going to church and praying.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_08: But the one area that we often that politicians thrive on is we're gonna take money away from poor people.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_08: We're gonna make poor people, you know, work for what they're doing.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_08: And if I remember correctly, Jesus fed the five thousand, right, because they didn't have food to eat.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_08: Right.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_08: And so for me growing up in a in a you know a conservative church and um you know, This is Danielle Fischel.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_07: And Ryder Strong from Podmeats World.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_07: When you have five and seven-year-old boys, I can promise you they love superheroes.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_07: Oh, it never goes away.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_07: Indy is 11 years old and he's obsessed with comics, cartoons, video games, all of it.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_07: Adler and Keaton both have Spider-Man costumes, and if anything says Marvel on it, they are in.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_07: Same.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_07: Which is why we love Lingo Kids.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_07: They have Marvel Spider-Man activities that are totally age-appropriate.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_07: And safe, made just for the little ones.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_07: Plus Disney's Moana, Frozen's Utopia, all the characters your kids already love, and a few you're secretly hoping they'll get into.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_06: I just load up the iPads with Lingo Kids before a trip, and with over 4,000 interactive activities, songs, and shows, it keeps their attention for hours.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_07: Download Lingo Kids for free or go all in with Lingo Kids Plus for even more incredible content.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_06: Choose the yearly plan and save up to 60%.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_06: Search Lingo Kids in the App Store or Google Play.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_07: Lingo Kids, everything kids love.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: Hey everybody, Lady Luck here, and we're celebrating America's 250th birthday.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: Now, all summer long, I'm gonna be celebrating by playing on SpinQuest.com, which is an American-owned social casino.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: It obviously features over a thousand slot games and live blackjack, live craps, live bubble craps.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: Head on over to spinquest.com, get yourself a thirty dollar coin pack for just ten bucks.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_05: SpinQuest is a free-to-play social casino.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_05: Voidwear prohibited.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_05: Visit spinquest.com for more details.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_08: You you eat.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_08: To eat, you have to work.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_08: And so for me, I struggle with that because I believe in a work ethic, I'm an entrepreneur, and so people that are just kind of sitting at home, that are just kind of living off the government, I struggle with that because I think they should be working.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_08: Now, is that biblical?
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_08: Yes, because in bib in the Bible it does talk about working.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_08: And it does talk about I think in Proverbs a man a man shouldn't eat if he doesn't work.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_02: Well yeah, yeah.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_02: I think Paul was he was addressing one of the churches and he said, if you don't work, you don't eat, basically.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_02: But I mean the yeah, uh that's that to me seems like a whole nother podcast because there are these kind of contradictory statements in the Bible.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't think on the surface they seem contradictory, but I think if you go a little deeper it it's actually kind of forcing you to a more profound truth.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_02: But so one of the verses I think you referenced in our conversation last night was James uh one twenty-seven, which is religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this, to look after orphans and window widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_02: So I I I think a verse like that um okay, I'll say this first.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_02: I think people in this country uh are so biblically illiterate or religiously illiterate, they can't distinguish when their uh political ideology uh is replacing their faith.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, they're responding to something and and they can't even tell that they're responding out of their political motivations versus their religious um worldview.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_03: That's because a lot of conservative people are Christians.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_03: There's there's that tie that there's no reason for that tie, in my opinion, but there is a tie.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_02: I d that's a good question.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if I don't know what the origins are.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if it's because because I think and I'm gonna you know put my neck out here a little bit.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_02: I I do think sometimes in very obvious ways conservatives are the worst offenders, but I would also say liberals are offenders of this too.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_02: But I think the most obvious kind of inflammatory examples where people just openly mock is typically from a conservative.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_02: Like uh that one guy who said, you know, the female bodies repel rape semen.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_03: I remember that.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I mean he was a conservative Christian and he was just so idiotic and you know, like people just bash uh George W.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_02: Bush because, you know, he just said stupid things.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_02: But so yeah, I mean I think conservatives are the most obvious offenders, but they're definitely liberal offenders.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_02: And so I know for myself when universal health care was first being brought up, I was very opposed to it.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_02: And and I now look back on that and was like, was that because of my faith that I was opposed to it, or was that because of my political motivations?
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it was because of my political motivations.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_08: I I've since then kind of warmed up to the idea of universal health care because I mean this verse like I think that I I think the problem is though that uh for me, because I've thought that too, and I thought my problem is that the government gets involved, and so then the government requires all these stupid things that no practical like so my health insurance right now that I get has maternity in it.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_08: Like I'm paying for maternity.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_08: But doesn't your insurance cover your wife?
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_08: But it's separate, right?
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_08: It's these two my wife's not gonna have another baby.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_08: You have six kids.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_08: My wife's not gonna be pregnant again.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_08: Her tubes are tied.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_08: Okay.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_08: And so there's no need for me to have to pay for these maternity services.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_03: Anymore.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_03: But that you still but still even after your kids are out of the house, you're still paying for elementary school taxes and stuff like that.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_03: That's just part of society society.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_08: Right.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_08: But that's not well, that's another thing I have a complaint of.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_08: None of my kids go to public school.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_08: And so but yet I still pay the taxes for them to go to public school.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_08: And so I think that's where I have a problem with.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_02: But there's there's a lot of evidence to show that even if you don't have kids, like you're a single parent or you're married without kids, you derive a lot of benefit, um kind of secondary benefits from having a strong school system in your neighborhood.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_02: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_08: Right.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_08: So I don't I don't want to get off track from the healthcare debate.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_08: Well, I mean you were you're kind of throwing these these.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_08: Well, I'm talking uh the the overall I the over the overarching idea is that I don't think government usually makes great decisions with my money.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_08: I think I can make better decisions with my money.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_08: And that's the problem I have with the healthcare is like I want people to ha to to be taken care of, but I would prefer there be some choice in it rather than nope, this is how o Obamacare or the Affordable Care Act is how we're gonna do it.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_08: And my premiums have gone up, way up since and I was, you know, the line was, Oh no, your premiums will go down.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_08: It'll be better for you.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_08: And so that's the part that's the problem I have.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_03: That's your political stance.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_03: But what Dan was saying is the Bible says to take care of orphans and and poor people.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_03: But I think I think he's making a good point that universal health care does does accomplish things.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_08: So here's where so here's the vr I want to read this verse.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_08: Um it's Matthew um where is it?
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_08: Matthew 19.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_08: So it's about the rich young ruler, right?
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_08: So the this rich guy says, he comes to Jesus, what do I need to do to get in the heaven?
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_08: Uh and he says, You don't murder, don't commit adultery, don't steal, don't give false testimony, honor your father, mother, love your neighbor as yourself.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_08: Oh great.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_08: We as conservatives can all do that, right?
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_08: Um and the man says, All these I have kept, what do I still lack?
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_08: And Jesus said, if you want to be perfect, go sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven, then come follow me.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_08: Oh.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_08: I think that's where American Christianity differs from, let's say, European Christianity, because this this article I read says European Christianity, they're very into social justice.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_08: Christ was into social justice, right?
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_08: He was about equality, making uh lifting the first shall be last and the last shall be first, et cetera, et cetera.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_08: So I think that's where American Christianity kind of parts ways with biblical Christianity.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_08: Um and again, having grown up in a house where, you know, the bleeding the bleeding heart liberals, you know, they're they don't know what's going on.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_08: And so there's still some struggle with that when I see, you know, the um agencies in down the downtown area where I live, and they're out helping the homeless.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_08: And again, I I think the homeless need to be helped, but then I this the part I struggle with is are you homeless by choice?
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_08: Homeless because of mental illness, homeless just because you want to not conform with society.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_08: Um and maybe I shouldn't care about that.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_08: Maybe I should just care about the homeless in general.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_08: I don't know.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_08: That's so for me it's always kind of a struggle.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_03: I have that same struggle too, in the way I I handle that.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe this is different than other people, but if if I'm called to tithe or to take care of the homeless, I typically don't donate to institutions.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_03: I take that money and I give it directly to somebody I know that's in need.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_03: Um a good example for that is, you know, in the Bible it calls to take care of or orphans.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_03: And when I went over to help them, I also brought like a ton of toys.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_03: That was my second trip that I learned that, hey, I can bring things and that that is a way better use of money in my opinion than donating to an organization that has a guy on the street corner.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_03: Or the guy on the street corner.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_03: Or or to the or orphan organization that has a forty percent overhead.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_03: So I like doing that, you know, individual impact thing.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, um many thoughts, many thoughts.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_02: So uh the one w verse I think you would probably r resonate with is Second Thessalonians three ten, which says For even when we were with you, we would give you this command.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_02: If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um Yeah, I I guess I just don't see that as a justification for resisting the government when they have a plan to provide health care to people who have not had health care for years and years and years.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_08: Um Do you think that okay, so then do you think that the government is doing it in the U.S.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_02: Well here's my here's my question.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_02: You you say yeah, the the government, whenever they get a hold of these things, good or bad, they they fumble it up, right?
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, yeah.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_08: They mess it up.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_08: The post office, Amtrak, um you could name any kind of DMV.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_02: I I think I think you're right.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I think the reason being is because private sector companies and organizations have competition, right?
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_02: You've got to provide the best service most efficiently and make the most profit.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_02: Government doesn't have those constraints or pressures.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_02: So they're not propelled to do the best.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_02: Private sector is.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_02: However, the private sector will never ever take on one of these projects because there is no profit in it.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_02: So why can't the church recognize that the government is going towards the right cause, a cause that corresponds with the church's mission, and partner with the government?
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I have no idea what that would look like.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_02: And there are plenty of examples where the government has, and I know this personally, undermined the church's efforts to meet the cause of helping the homeless.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_08: Well, I think that that does happen, but I think you're going to find that in typically um downtown slash liberal type church, social justice type churches where um there's there's the churches that embrace the um same-sex marriage thing, and then there's the churches that don't embrace that.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_08: And I I I just I don't have any studies to back this up, but I just feel like I I believe that the churches that embrace the hashtag love win, same-sex marriage, they're the ones that are about social justice more.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_08: And so those are the ones that you often will find at the center of a homeless ministry, or um the ones that don't um accept the idea of same-sex marriage are the ones that are not into social justice as much.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_08: Now, again, I don't have proof of that, but I know like in downtown Olympia there's a Baptist church and they have a homeless ministry.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_08: But I have a feeling that Baptist Church wouldn't accept same-sex marriage as something that's okay.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_08: So I I think I think to the point of our article about American Christianity, is it's this guy, this Josh Feerstein guy.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_08: He I really would love to have a conversation with him and see how he can back up what he does there on the video.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_08: Um, how does he back that up with biblic verses from the Bible?
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_02: I guess my my main point is what's informing your thinking.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_02: Is it your political motivations and ideology or is it your Christian worldview?
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_02: And for me, um I I am constantly checking that in my head.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_02: Constantly checking what's motivating this response or this action or signing this petition or going out and protesting or picketing this.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um what's motivating that?
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_02: My political ideology or my Christian worldview?
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_02: And and so I tried for me, I think you're way better off going with your Christian worldview than your conservative values or your liberal values.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_02: The way I the where where I've seen this play out is with gun rights, I think, um, with abortion and with um same-sex marriage, uh women in the church, like I see so much in those where it's so it it's m more based on your political where you land on the political spectrum.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um for like abortion, I mean, I'm strongly opposed to it.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I had a debate with a family member who is on the liberal side of things, but also a Christian.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_02: And I felt like I was able to defend my position biblically.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_02: And then I tried to get his side of things, and it the the what he responded mostly was with political slogans.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I was trying to get at like, well give me I I wasn't saying like give me a text proof, but give me an argument.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_02: Give me some rationale or reasoning from a Christian worldview, and I just didn't I couldn't get that, and that to me really struck a chord because I've seen that mostly with proponents of of abortion who are on who are in the Christian faith.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_02: I don't see a a religious justification for it.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_02: It's more just like women have rights to their bodies, and uh it's not uh considered a child when it's pre-24 weeks, when it's before the age of viability.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_02: And to me it's just like I don't know.
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• 31:50
  SPEAKER_02: Just don't see a lot of like Christian-informed ideas in that.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_08: Right.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_08: I mean, there are what you just said, if those are his arguments, those are not Christian-informed at all.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_02: It was just a lot of political motiv or uh slogans, and I've seen that across the board.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_08: Well, I mean, and then there's the thing about with the Second Amendment.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_08: I don't I mean, there's no verses that are jumping out at me that would defend your right to have a gun.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_08: Right.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_03: That's true.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_03: But isn't isn't the freedom that we have here in America, the freedom of religion to practice Christianity, is isn't that the same freedom of choice to do what you want in your life?
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_03: So why are why that's always that that debate that I have with my friends is like, then why am I telling people what to do, again, as an example with your body?
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_03: You know, you can make your own personal decisions for your families, but I do love that freedom of choice to believe in what I want.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_03: I would be very frustrated if somebody, you know, who is a politician who was a Mormon and said, nope, you can't you can't practice that religion.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_03: Were you gonna say something?
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_08: Well, I was gonna say that's where the Bristol Palin thing comes in.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_08: You know, you have someone who says, I'm a Christian, I believe these things, and who who even criticized Miley Cyrus about morality, uh, you know, whatever she was doing, I don't have the quote.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_08: But and then you f then you find out she gets knocked up.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_08: Right?
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_08: And so the the the world, the people that don't believe in in Christ, they're gonna do what they do.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_08: And so and they don't adhere to the to the to the principles that Dan and I adhere to.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_08: And so if they choose to do that, that's what they choose to do.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_08: And I'm not uh that's what I expect them to do.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_08: Now, if it's a person like a Bristol Palin who professes to be a believer, who professes to follow Christ, and they have influence and they have the ability to um influence people in a positive direction, when they do things like this and then they come up with these cliche, God will take care of me.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_08: I just think just good just disappear into the woodwork because you don't do any good for God.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_02: Aaron Ross Powell But what about when it comes down to legislation?
• 34:02
  unknown: Right?
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_02: Like let's say you legislated no premarital sex, right?
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_02: Because that's immoral.
• 34:08
  unknown: Right.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_02: Can you legislate that?
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think I never would.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_02: What if you legislated the other direction, right?
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_08: Everyone is forced to have sex, premarital sex?
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_02: Uh the make it like free um uh free like abortion policy, like free health care to get abortions for underage kids across the board nationally, right?
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_08: Like you're kind of giving kids a blank check to have So then if I was if I was in the legislature, so then you're saying I'd have to violate what I believe is right.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_02: Aaron Ross Powell Well, I'm saying what what you're saying where it's like, okay, I have my morality, you have your morality, I can't hold you to my standards, that's all well and good.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_02: But what about when it comes down to policy and legislation?
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_02: That's where the battleground is, is because people say, well, my morality is right.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_02: And um like I I was thinking about what you were saying, j uh, Jordan, with and I think it comes down to like the private sphere and the public sphere sphere.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_02: Spear.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um like with same same-sex marriage, right?
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_02: Like you had the right to have a same-sex relationship privately, but you wasn't going to be publicly recognized, right?
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um and I guess for me, I I'm not trying to legislate my morality on same-sex couples.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_02: However, I do I think this is where my Christian faith comes in.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um I'm fine with them getting and and believe it or not, this was actually Barack Obama's position when he was a senator.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_02: That they have I want to I I would say give them the full range of rights in a same-sex union or a civil union.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_02: But you don't need to redefine the meaning of marriage because to me, marriage is a religiously constructed idea that is um constitutionally or publicly or societally recognized and honored.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_03: Aaron Ross Powell If it's a religiously constructed idea, what about all the atheists that get married?
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_03: Are they just participating in a religious act without knowing it?
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_02: Trevor Burrus I th they're they're participating in a religiously constructed idea.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_03: Aaron Ross Powell I think that's true.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_03: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_03: I wonder, yeah, no, I I totally agree that it is a religiously constructed idea.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_03: It's just fascinating the way you put it that way because they're all participating in it.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_03: And if they had that frame of mind when getting married, they probably wouldn't get married.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_03: So you're kind of advocating for atheists and people who aren't of faith to not get married.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_03: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_02: No, they can get married absolutely.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_02: Just like I mean, they could come to church and participate in services.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't mean like they're I I mean there's there is actually an atheist church where they sing like pop songs and have community just because they like the idea.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_02: But they're not violating really any any of their beliefs.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_02: You know, they just enjoy it.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_02: So there's plenty of examples where atheists go and do religiously constructed things um for the sake of enjoyment.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_02: I mean I get on atheist blogs and I enjoy reading them because I like the critique.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_02: I like the critical thinking that goes into it.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_02: I don't troll.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_02: I mean I I I I enjoy reading what they have to say because there's some things I think they they have great critiques and I like I like uh you know intellectually exploring that stuff.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_03: Aaron Ross Powell The one thing I really like about your perspective, Dan, is is trying to isolate what your political stance is and what your religious stance is.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_03: And I and I'm so fatigued with specifically kind of Republicans saying, hey, if you're Christian, you're Republican.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_03: And David and I had this conversation about two weeks ago when I played him a little clip or talked about a little clip on OPB where there is an evangelical Christian's wife who goes around, she's a scientist, and she advocates for taking care of the earth that God gave to us and trying to change climate change, you know.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_03: And she truly believes it's it's real and we need to do something as Christians.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_03: And I thought that was a really nice way to say, hey, look, even though I'm a Christian, I'm not gonna go along with this conservative viewpoint just because it's a talking point.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_03: I'm making my own decision on this.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_03: Whether you believe it or not.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_08: Well, and and so like when we s when I say social justice, I think for many conservatives and probably for um liberals, that it it's a it's a buzzword, right?
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_08: Like, oh social justice.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_08: So that must mean you are this or you are this.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_08: You m you side aga you side for um gay and homosexuality and homeless people and which Yeah.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_08: Okay.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_08: But then Yeah.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_08: So I mean I I think Jesus was all about social justice.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_08: Now it wasn't I don't know if it was I don't think it was called that in his day.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_08: I mean, he was about equality.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_08: Like how many times did he reach out to the women when women were basically a second class or fourth class group of people.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_08: And so I think that there is social justice in the Bible, but I often think that conservatives tend to gloss over that to focus on other things that are easier to focus on.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_02: There's there's two terms I think that describe what you're saying.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_02: There's they're biblical exegesis words, but one is eegesis and exegesis.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_02: Exegesis is when you go to the text and you allow the truths and the statements and the axioms and the propositions of the of the sacred text to inform your thinking and inform your life.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_02: Isegesis is when you come to the text with presuppositions and you read those presuppositions into the text.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's where people just get off so quickly.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, from the get-go, because once we start debating it, it's like, hold on, is that your political ideology being read into the text?
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_02: You have to ask yourself that question.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_02: I think everybody has to ask themselves that question.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_02: Conservative, liberal, moderate, libertarian, everyone has to ask themselves that question.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_02: What's informing my thinking, my presuppositions that I'm bringing with me and everyone has them, or the text that it's should be informing me?
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's a really fruitful thing to do because uh another point of difference is there there are things that are immoral but legal.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I think rightly so.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_02: I think premarital sex should be legal.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, w whether it's I shouldn't not legal, but it shouldn't be not it shouldn't be illegal.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_08: It shouldn't be legislated.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_08: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_02: It shouldn't be illegal.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_02: Even though I think it's immoral, I don't think it should ever, ever be illegal.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_02: That's a tyrannical, totalitarian state that I don't want to live in.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_02: It makes me appreciative of being in America.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, it comes when when you talk about other issues, it's like gets really sticky.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_08: Well it's like alcohol.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_08: I mean, alcohol they try to prohibit, right?
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_08: But then it's this it's always a pendulum.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_08: So like with all the the the nation um legalizing marijuana, right?
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_08: So that's uh at one point there's a pendulum on the other side.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_08: Now the pendulum is gonna swing over here where it's legalized.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_08: Then something's gonna happen, you know, fifty years from now, a hundred years from now, where uh there's gonna be another tipping point where, oh, look, we legalized marijuana, and now look at all these things that have been happening.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_08: You know, people have been killing or no one's working, people are lazy.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_08: We need to prohibit the part that would happen.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_08: Not killing.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_08: They're gonna be on their couching.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_08: It swings back.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_08: It swings back to the other side where it gets prohibited.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_08: I mean, that's yeah.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and and to push back on my previous point is, you know, you could say, well, you can't legislate morality, but at the same time, we do all the time.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_02: My conception of morality influences how I vote.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_02: And and anyone who says they don't do that is lying.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_08: Well, I think I I would think that most people, because from the day you're born, the day you enter school, y your politics influence how you I believe most of the time your politics influence how you read the Bible and not the other way around.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_08: Because you learn the Pledge of Allegiance, you learn American history, you learn all this stuff in public school, you're not learning anything about the Bible.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_08: And so then you're learning all these things, and then you read the Bible and you think, Oh, I don't like this part, because this doesn't go with what I believe.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_08: Oh, yeah.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_08: And so then then you throw that part out and you don't listen to it.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_08: Um and then but people will still say they're Christians.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_08: Right.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_08: Right?
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_08: And so that's where I get confused.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_08: Like, how can you say you're Chr my idea of a Christian I like to think is pretty biblical based, and so then when I run up against somebody that's like a Bristol Palin, when she's doing what she's doing, she would say she's Christian.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_08: But I have a feeling if I could follow her around throughout the day, she's doing things I would be like, uh okay, I'm not so there's like popular Christianity.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_08: Sure.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_08: Right.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_03: There's all these different kinds well, she also has the pressure as a public figure to believe what her mom does and what her dad does, right?
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_03: So she it could be a false a false thing.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_03: That's true.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_03: You talked about interpreting text though with Christians, like we talked about this guy with the gun and and killing people with his Second Amendment, right?
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_03: But in the Bible, like I think it's Deuteromany Deuteronomy seventeen where it says, you know, you should stone people to death who don't believe
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_08: Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Let me get that out of the way.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_08: Because I think that whenever there's an argument about morality in the New Testament, people all often bring up Old Testament.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_08: Oh, well, should we kill everyone that has a tattoo?
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_08: Your church is your home.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_08: It's called bedside.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_08: There you go.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_08: Lazy Lutheran.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_08: That's where you go.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_03: But no, but I still still at this age, like I still don't understand.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_03: Do I just disregard the whole Old Testament?
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_03: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_08: Jordan goes to God Bucks.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_08: So let's let's turn to our resident masters of divinity.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_08: Yes, please.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_08: So the old test the Old Testament informs the New Testament.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_08: So explain it in a layman's way.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_08: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_02: So I I've heard this argument often and it bugs the crap out of me because people are criticizing a text they don't understand.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_02: I would really, really strongly say if you want to critique something like the Bible, you have to first understand the text and how it was written and who was it written by.
• 45:20
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• 45:21
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• 45:23
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• 45:28
  SPEAKER_07: Oh, it never goes away.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_07: Indy is 11 years old, and he's obsessed with comics, cartoons, video games, all of it.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_07: Adler and Keaton both have Spider-Man costumes, and if anything says Marvel on it, they are in.
• 45:39
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• 45:40
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• 46:03
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• 46:17
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• 46:20
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• 46:42
  SPEAKER_02: Voidware prohibited.com for more details one of the things that I think scholars have discovered just by being in the text all the time, and and I think most people have come to the natural conclusion that the revelation of God represented by the Bible is a is a revelation uh that it has a progression to it.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_02: There's a progression from the beginning to the middle to the end.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_02: And so the Old Testament or to be more kind of inclusive, the Hebrew text, right?
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_02: Because Christian I think Jewish people would kind of bristle calling it the Old Testament, like that's my testament, it's not old to me.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um there are strictures and uh prohibitions and restrictions in that text that were time limited and people limited and place limited.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_03: Um then as Was there like an expiration date written into the Bible, like in 500 A.D.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_03: Then this is no longer valid?
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_02: Well, okay, let me give you an argument for that.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_02: There were many, many laws about the temple, right?
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_02: Like how you come to the temple, what you do, how you dress, who can enter into the holy place, the holy of holies.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_02: In the New Testament, Jesus said all those uh aspects of the temple are actually true of me and they are fulfilled in me.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_02: And so now the Christian conception is all those numerous laws, restriction, prohibitions, abolutions that you had to do in regards to the temple actually were for the purpose of pointing to the character and person of Jesus and what he would do on the cross.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_02: So i it it may it's it I don't really see it as a cop-out if you think of uh all those laws pertaining to the temple as actually having a purpose pointing to a person.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_02: And that and then you know, I think in Matthew 5.17, you know, Jesus said, All of the laws are fulfilled in me.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_02: They're not negated, but they are fulfilled.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_02: So you don't have to follow the laws anymore, you follow Jesus.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um all the all the ceremonial laws, all the temple laws, all the cleansing laws, they had theological purposes.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_02: They weren't just a list of rules.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_02: And this is actually a blog I've been meaning to write.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_02: You know, are are is Christian morality just a set of rules?
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I I think it's not, because the the rules have a purpose.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_03: Does that explain Yeah, no, you're getting there, and still wondering though, like what the purpose of stoning someone to death before Jesus came and what was the purpose then?
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean I mean that's a pretty that's a pretty harsh for for believing, I guess, in something if this guy was just dumb and he worshipped the sun and he just wasn't very smart or you know, and and then Well give me give me like a specific like uh like what what text are you referring to specifically?
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_08: I think it's Deuteromity seventeen that says, you know, there's tons of there's tons of like in Leviticus, there's all these um prescriptions about how you should do this.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_08: And and I think a lot of it was in terms of like health and and safety, right?
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_08: Don't eat this kind of meat.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like if you have an infection, you have to leave the community for seven days and come back and be checked up by the priest.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_02: I mean a lot of those those seemingly archaic prescriptions were actually very standard health practices that we employ today.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_02: And if you look at comparisons like in in later Roman cultures, uh there is archaeological evidence where uh physicians would prescribe people to eat their own feces to cure their ailments, which would make them sicker.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_02: So those are but those like kind of archaic, like why should someone leave the community, be checked out by the priest, if they have a mold spot on their on their house, they have to have the priest check it out, and then they can't leave their home for seven days, like all that stuff that sounds ridiculous.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_02: If you look at it from like modern standards, we have co-opted so many of those practices.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_02: And and really, like God was prescribing kind of modern health practices.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_08: But I mean, there's some things like don't wear wool and linen together.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_08: Okay, yeah, yeah.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_02: So here's my response to that.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_02: You gotta understand when you're reading the Bible, it's a theological text.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_02: It's telling you things in in order to show you something about the character of God and what he was doing with the Israelites.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_02: It's not just like, huh, what that's weird.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_02: That's why would he do that?
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_02: You've got to look more at the purpose.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_02: So, like, you know, not having mixed clothing, um, not marrying outside of the the Israelites, you know.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_02: All those things were, you know, circumcising.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_02: So you're physically different, you're wearing different clothes, you're not intermarrying with other nations.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_02: The purpose for that was God wanted the Israelites to be a people purely unto himself, to follow exactly who he was, and so that they would be an example to the surrounding nations, so that nations would look at the Israelites and say, They are totally and radically different than who I am, and they're talking about this Yahweh.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_02: I want to learn more about that.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_02: And that's literally like God prescribed the clothing they wear, the physical makeup, you have to cut the foreskin off your penis, the food they ate, you know, you had to keep kosher, the way they conducted themselves, the way they worshipped Yahweh.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_02: And and so I I would say also too, I think people don't like God having that level of involvement in their lives.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_02: Like I think that's a 21st century thing.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um because up you know, up to antiquity, that was perfectly normal that your God that you worshiped and followed could have total and total prescriptive power over your entire life.
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_08: I also think Jordan remember that um in the New Testament we're off track from American Christianity topic, but in the New Testament, they didn't have any of these of these but of these um uh uh books that we have now that create the New Testament.
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_08: They all they had was the Old Testament.
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_08: Right, right.
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_08: So Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, I mean, they were living it, and so all they had to go back to was the Old Testament.
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_08: Whereas we have this chronological snobbery, right, where we can think, oh, what was going on in the Old Testament?
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_08: Those guys are freak shows.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_08: But that they didn't have I mean, people back in the New Testament times didn't have the a James and a Johnny and a first and second through John and you asked me to look up that verse, and it is Deuteronomy 17.
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_02: And what is it about stoning immorality?
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so I'll give you like the King James version if that's if you want that one.
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_03: But it just says like um and if they worship other gods, either sun or moon or the host of the heaven, skipping down here, it says, which have committed that wicked thing under the gates, even that the man or the woman, and they shall stone them, stone them with stones until they die.
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_03: And then of course there's the simpler version, the new international version that kind of talks about the same thing.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_03: I'm thinking like, what was the purpose back then of that?
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_03: Of course, that's not the Christian faith now, but like I mean that's that's like that's kind of like uh this I'm not making a correlation at all, but I know another faith that calls for their people to kill other people that don't believe.
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_02: No, I think it's a fair criticism, um and I I I need to probably think about it more, but I do recognize that it's a good criticism and it's w an a criticism that I've had carried with myself and wondered about.
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_02: The answers I've heard is that was for the purpose of maintaining morality in the group and fidelity to Yahweh.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_02: And Yahweh took it that seriously that if you intermarried or worshipped other gods, you were out of bounds of the purposes of what he was trying to do with the Israelites.
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_02: A book I will recommend to you is uh Skeletons in God's Closet by Joshua Butler.
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_02: I have not read it yet, but the book has gotten great reviews.
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_02: I've bought it.
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um I've gone to Imago Day, he's a worship pastor at Imago Day in Portland, Oregon.
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_02: And um I listened to a podcast of him on uh it's called Unbelievable.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_02: It's probably I listen to it pretty constantly.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I thought his answers were pretty satisfying to the um accusation that God is a genocidal maniac.
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, you haven't heard that?
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_02: Oh.
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_02: People call Yahweh a wife beater, genocidal maniac, um because he would uh recommended that you know when the Israelites were going into the land of Philistine that they kill all the women and children um and take over the land.
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_02: So a lot of people have said, well, you're and this is from the four horsemen of the atheist apocalypse who re say this regularly.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_02: You know, Yahweh was you worship a genocidal maniac, a wife beater.
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um I gotta read that book and come back to you.
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_02: Let's let's do a follow-up podcast on that.
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_03: And this isn't something that I was brewing on or anything.
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_03: It's just I remember when you guys were talking about the Second Amendment guy, I'm thinking, I remember somebody throwing out this point that, you know, it's an incredible it's an incredible point.
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_02: It's something I've contemplated a lot.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I would say come back to this, maybe to his that video that Jesus said, turn the other cheek.
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_02: And um, you know, if someone takes your your cloak, give them or needs a cloak, give them your cloak, walk a the extra mile with them.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_02: I mean what Jesus clearly says is for the sake of compassion, sacrifice yourself.
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_02: And so when it comes down to someone saying, Well, I'm gonna defend my rights with force, I think that totally contradict contradicts what Jesus says, which is sacrifice yourself for the sake of love for the other person.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, let that love be a testament to the hardness in the other person's heart.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_02: So if someone is being totalitarian and unjustifiably oppressing their people, I think the Christian response is to lay down your life and and let that be a witness and break down the hardness in their heart.
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_03: That's a good response.
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think it's I think the American culture response is, well, I'm gonna take up arms, defend my rights, and I think with Christianity, when your rights rights are easily laid down, Jesus laid down his right to many things for the sake of humanity.
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_02: Boom, solid.
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_02: Did we lose you, David?
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_02: I realized I couldn't.
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_08: Did I go on a rant right there?
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_08: Clicky, clicky, click.
• 57:42
  SPEAKER_08: You didn't go on a rant, you went on an extended uh topic that didn't have anything to do.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_08: Well, I mean it kind of offshoots American Christianity.
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_08: But it would be a good conversation to have, because I think that so many people That's the argument that they have.
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_08: You're not supposed to judge, right?
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_08: That's the that's the big one.
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_08: Don't judge people, and what about or homosexuality was a pagan practice and that's why it was frowned upon in the Old Testament anyway.
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_02: So there's all these There's another podcast I listened to called Intelligence Squared.
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_02: I love that one.
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_02: And they debated same-sex marriage, and uh I heard an argument that wasn't a biblical or Christian argument against same-sex marriage, talking about a more of a like an Aristotelian concept of marriage that was based on you know heterosexuals protecting kind of the right of reproduction and how it benefits society.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_02: So and every child's an obligated to a mom and a dad.
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_02: And I I I again I bought that book.
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_02: Child care really kill cuts into my reading time.
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_03: You gotta start listening to podcasts like Hedgehog Inc.
• 58:51
  SPEAKER_03: with all this great information.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, but I listened to probably 16 different podcasts.
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I kid you not, you can look at them.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_02: I'm shocked that you don't you haven't listened to some of the ones I've talked about.
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, I remember I told you Intelligence Squared, I like that podcast.
• 59:04
  SPEAKER_03: I hate the the title.
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's just Really you don't like that?
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_03: This is Intelligence Square.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, I love that.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_03: Only Intelligence is gonna be.
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_03: I I don't know, I feel like it's a little pop-up.
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_03: Right, right, right, right.
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_02: I'm shocked that you haven't listened to the mystery show yet.
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_03: I've listened to every episode.
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_03: It's awesome.
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_03: Every episode, yeah.
• 59:24
  SPEAKER_02: You heard that from me though, to listen to it.
• 59:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_02: You did, you did.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_02: I have a podcast to prove it because I asked you.
• 59:31
  SPEAKER_08: All right.
• 59:31
  SPEAKER_08: Thanks for listening in today.
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_08: Hopefully, you were able to gain some insight.
• 59:36
  SPEAKER_08: Questions, go to David Simonson.net or kpdq.com and look for the Dr.
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_08: David show.
• 59:42
  SPEAKER_02: Check out my blog at DanielBates.co.
• 59:45
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks, Dan.
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks, David.
• 59:47
  SPEAKER_08: You're welcome.
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you for joining the conversation on the Dr.
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_04: David Show with Dr.
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_04: David Simonson.
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_04: Dr.
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_04: David is the guy with creative answers to your daily challenges.
• 1:00:00
  SPEAKER_04: Listen Tuesdays at one on True Talk 800 Radio and online at TrueTalk800.com.
• 1:00:05
  SPEAKER_04: Email your questions and comments to dr david at hedgedrinkinc at gmail.com and follow him on Facebook at DocDavid.
• 1:00:17
  SPEAKER_07: This is Daniel Fischel.
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