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Christmas Carols - Then and Now · Centrally Speaking

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: Centrally speaking, is the Central Schwingfelder Church's podcast.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: It speaks about issues that would be of interest to our society.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: In particular, it addresses how a Christian worldview intersects with Western secular culture.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: In the spirit of the church's founder, we take the perspective of the middle way, which is in agreement with the historic Christian church.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Dr.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: Drake Williams, Minister of Mission and Theology at the Church.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: Our website is www.cscfamily.org.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_02: One of the things that the church is most well known for is the Christmas season.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_02: And in uh the church, we celebrate uh the birth of Jesus and also uh a time leading up to his birth, which is called Advent, which is also important in the church calendar too.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_02: And with uh the celebration of Advent and Christmas come Christmas carols, and these two have great value today, as they did many, many years ago.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_02: And so we're very glad to welcome Sally House to uh this program today.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_02: She has uh studied um in uh music at uh Lebanon Valley College, she has uh taught music in Potstown, the Potstown School District for some 33 years.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_02: She's been the director of music at the Central Schwankfelder Church since 2006, and also as the United Choir Director since 2022.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I've known Sally for many, many years.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_02: And it's a pleasure to be able to ask you some questions uh today about Christmas carols, uh their value then and now.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_02: Sally, uh from the moment uh that I've met you, I've always known that you've been interested in music.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_02: And when we come to this uh subject, I know you have a lot of interest in Christmas music.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_02: Perhaps maybe you take us back to some of the very first um impressions that you've had about uh Christmas carols, uh whether they be in the church or in uh some other venue.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_02: What stood out to you then?
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_02: Uh what made this type of music attractive to you?
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know that I can actually find a date or a piece or anything that kind of stuck out stood out because I just remember always singing.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_03: I don't remember a time when I wasn't singing.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_03: We were singing in the car, we were singing at home, we sang at church, we sang around a campfire when we were camping.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_03: And so I kind of remember always singing.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_03: My sister and I would sing in the car and uh, you know, with each other and play games as we were singing.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_03: So I can't tell you when it started.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_03: I can tell you that I know so many Christmas carols from the many years that I've been singing.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_03: I started singing in school chorus when I was in the fifth grade and then sang through high school and through college.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_03: And after college, then began my career in choosing Christmas music for people to sing, as well as singing in an alumni choir of my uh alma mater Lebanon Valley for 25 years.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, when you're singing in school and you're directing at school, you're looking at a lot of Christmas music because every year there's a Christmas concert.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, we're looking at some 50 years of Christmas concerts.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_03: So I know music from the West Indies, I know music from the Horn Carol, you know, there's this whole wealth of Christmas literature, and I know so much of it that and I love it.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_03: I love it.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_03: It's I mean, I love music and vocal music in particular, but I do love the Christmas season and the Christmas music.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_03: It's uh it's just special to me.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, it just you know brings back memories of my kids at school, it brings back memories of my family, but most of all, it's it's it's just such a wonderful time of year and an important time of year because of Christ's birth.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_03: So I can't really tell you when I was first hit by it.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_03: But I wasn't, it's been hit over and over year after year.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I got some of my first memories of you, Sally, were uh singing in the church.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, I can't remember whether it was Christmas carols uh or not, uh, but certainly this is a time of year uh where there's special music and it's uh joyous music uh and it's so very pleasant.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_02: So let's talk about some of these Christmas carols that have been uh let's start with some of the most popular ones.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um uh one of those is uh Hark the Herald Angels Sing and uh Joy to the World.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um we hear these uh frequently in the church.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_02: Can you provide us with a verse or two of each of these carols?
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_02: And then why do you think that these carols have become so popular?
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_03: Well, let's start.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_03: In case you don't know the beginning of Hark the Herald Angels Sing, Hark the Herald Angels Sing, Glory to the Newborn King, peace on earth and mercy mild, God and sinner reconciled, joyful, all ye nations rise, join the triumph of the skies with the angelic host proclaim, Christ is born in Bethlehem.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_03: So even just the text kind of pulls you in, makes you kind of feel like you want to just join in singing with that angel chorus, you know.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_03: You just want to be a part of that, the imagery of, you know, the angels and the and the paintings we've seen, and you know, even our own in our own heads, the imagery of the angel chorus singing and the shepherds in fear, and then probably in awe, you know, when they realized that they weren't in danger, that this was an awesome thing, you know, going from fear to awe.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_03: I think that, you know, you just want to come into that.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_03: And that I think that's it is truly one of my favorites.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_03: Um uh then there's an uplifting message of the last verse: Hail the newborn Prince of Peace, hail the Son of Righteousness, light and life to all he brings, risen with healing in his wings.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_03: Mild he lays his glory by, like he he leaves his throne to come to earth and be a man.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_03: That kind of makes me cry.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, born that man no more may die, born to raise the sons of earth, born to give them second birth.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_03: So this is all about God's purpose now, and it's uh to save us, to make us presentable to God through Jesus Christ.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_03: And that is certainly something we're singing about.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and it's just thinking of some of those lyrics, they're very positive, aren't they?
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_03: They are very uplifting and yeah, make feel good.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_03: It's feel it's feel good words, you know.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_03: It makes you feel right, feel good about you know this whole season and and why we celebrate it, you know.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_03: Why do we celebrate it?
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_03: Because it gets lost in all of the commercialism.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_02: I'll ask you some questions about commercialism a little bit later, but just thinking about these these lyrics of how positive uh they are.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, uh somebody's trying to uh say there's new uh good news, right?
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_03: Right, exactly, yes.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_03: Um that being screened from the you know, sung from the sky, you know, sung from the heavens.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's just for me.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, and so would be the next uh uh Carol, Joy to the world.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_02: So maybe you could read a couple lyrics, uh the verses uh for us.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_03: So this is really a whole different thing because it does not really share the Christmas story.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_03: There's no shepherds or angels, there's no Bethlehem, you know.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_03: Really, we don't even mention the baby, we just we mention Jesus and reference Jesus, but so it's very different, but it's just a joyous celebration of the sovereignty of God and his sovereignty over all nature, all the universe.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_03: And a second side to that is the celebration of his gift of his son Jesus.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_03: So the second stanza says, Let every heart prepare him room, echoing the need for our personal acceptance of Christ into our lives.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_03: Then the third stanza highlights the reversal of the curse of sin with the lyrics, no more let sin and sorrow grow, nor thorns infest the ground.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_03: And then proclaiming that Christ comes to make his blessings flow far as the curse is found.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_03: So wherever there's sin, and and there's sin in all of us, but wherever there's darkness and sin, Jesus comes to triumph over that.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_03: And uh the final stanza celebrates his righteous reign and the wonders of his love pointing forward to his eternal kingdom.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_03: So just like Hark the Herald Angels, I think the both these pieces are celebratory, uplifting, and just plain delightful to sing because they are really fun to sing in addition to having a very strong spiritual and emotional tie for us, you know.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_03: Uh and the texts are well written.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_03: You know, when you have a well-written text and we have music that's great music, and you combine those two, you get a great work of art that lasts through the ages.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_02: True, true.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_02: And we'll talk about the uh those who put um uh melodies to these in a second, but just thinking about uh erasing uh uh sin far as the curse is found.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_02: Uh if there's a curse uh now we're wiping it out, uh yes, and uh open the heart to receive this this joy and this uh good news.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_03: So once again, once again it's not surprising that they're very popular, you know, that they they pass denominations, they cross over denim denominations into you know the this the sacred Christmas music of you know everyone of every denomination.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_02: So and even beyond denominations to uh uh those uh that may not even come to church still like these very positive, exactly.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_02: Which leads me now on to uh some of the song composers because uh many don't realize uh that there were great musicians that accompany that wrote these uh uh melodies to uh uh fit with these lyrics.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_02: So it's uh Charles Wesley who wrote uh Hark the Herald Angels Sing, but it was the great musician Felix Mendelssohn who composed the music.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_02: And while Isaac Watts wrote Joy to the World, is the great musician George Friedrich Handel who composed the music.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, these are very well-known classic composers.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, why do you think these uh musicians took time to write uh these melodies to fit with these lyrics?
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_03: Well, actually, I have to correct you on that.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_03: I have to correct you because Mendelssohn did write the music for Hark the Herald Angel Sing, but he did not write it for those texts, for that particular text.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_03: The hymn lyrics were written by Charles Wesley in 1739, as you said, and they were actually for a long time sung to the music of a Jewish composer.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_03: Mendelssohn composed a secular cantata in 1840, and then 15 years later, William Heyman Cummings actually applied Wesley's lyrics to Mendelssohn's music from that come from that cantata.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_03: And the interesting part of it, and kind of funny, is that Mendelssohn did not think any of that the music from that cantata was suited for the church because it was too bold and joyous.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_03: And Wesley had stipulated that his lyrics needed uh somber music to go with it.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_03: So neither of them probably would have been happy by the marriage of this tune with that text.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_03: But we are happy about it, it works all of us.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's interesting.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_03: So, yeah, it is totally composed by Mendelssohn, but it is it was actually put to that lyric by someone else much later, actually.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_02: So how about that?
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_03: No, I didn't realize the uh the actual hymn lyrics are are pretty old.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_03: They're they came before the music, but uh yeah, they weren't actually put together.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_03: And actually, it's the same situation with Joy to the World.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_03: And we do credit Handel, it's credited.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_03: I looked it up in the hymnal, and it is credited to Handel, but um, you know, if you do some background searching, uh Isaac wrote Isaac Watts wrote the lyrics, and then Lowell Mason wrote the hymn tune Antioch.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, a lot of times our hymns are written, the hymn lyrics are written in a specific meter that could go with all kinds of different tunes.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_03: So uh at one point in time, I think it was actually Hark the Herald Angel Sing, was actually written to go with the Easter hymn, Christ the Lord has risen today.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_03: So originally they were kind of paired together at one point in time.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_03: Anyway, the the text to uh Joyce the World, I guess went well with this hymn tune Antioch that was written by Lowell Mason.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_03: But there are some musical motifs that are in that tune that are part of Handel's Messiah.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_03: So, and Lowell Mason apparently was uh really tributes, was really a scholar, an admirer of Handel's music.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_03: So he might have purposely taken motifs from the Messiah and put it into that hymn, or it could have happened subconsciously because he was so familiar with Handel's music that in writing this he subconsciously pulled things out.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_03: So nobody knows that for sure.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_03: So you can think whatever you choose.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_03: But yeah, if you think of lift up your heads, joy to the world, you know, it starts the same way.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_03: So there's that motive, and then there's another one I think from the comfort ye aria, which I didn't really look up to find, but um, I can't think of that of that um aria in my head.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_03: I guess it's actually an arioso, but I couldn't get it all in my head to find that without really doing some searching, and I didn't take the time to do that.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_03: But yeah, whether it was actually, and you know, Handel spent a lot of his time writing in England, so Mason really did, I think he was the president of the Handel and Haydn Society and things like that.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_03: So he was a great admirer of Handel and very well could have lifted those motives completely on purpose.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_03: But our handle does ascribe it to Handel arranged by Mason.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_03: So can't say you were off the boat on that one.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_02: So okay, no, no, no, no, that's interesting.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_02: So so maybe it ought to be Mason that we're asking more.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_02: Why did he uh associate uh uh this uh great music with uh these lyrics?
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_03: Right, right.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, I think again, it's you know, it's it's the the music is great, the music is is well written and it's great and it lasts it lasts over time.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_03: The music is uplifting and the lyrics are uplifting.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_03: You know, how can you say joy to the world without a joyful song?
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_03: Even if you think of Handel's Messiah with lift up your heads, O you gates, the king of glory is will come in, you know.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, you know, what a what a motive to choose, you know, what a great motive to choose if if that's what he did, you know.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, I don't I just think there wasn't as much working together as we may think, but I do think that the hymn find finds its niche.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_03: So Hark the Herald found its niche.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_03: It's not being associated with other tunes anymore, it's associated so solely with Mendelssohn's tune, and likewise with um Joy to the World, it's associated solely with Antioch.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_03: And those tunes kind of don't get to be used with other hymns and other hymn lyrics because they become they become married, kind of, if that makes sense.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_02: So sure, they've become married in our memory and have been sung popularly for for years.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, right in that way.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_03: And this kind of I'd like to make a couple comments about Christmas carols in general, that really many of our carols were not composed specifically for a text.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_03: It was the text that was made or created to accompany the music.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_03: Not in the case so much with well, maybe with Joy to the World, but but you know, it it was the text.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_03: So in the early church, uh services were often in Latin.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_03: So only the very schooled people knew what was happening in the service.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_03: They didn't under most of the population didn't understand it.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_03: So in order to bring the Christmas story to the general population, the clergy or monks used tunes that people already knew and then applied a text to that tune in the vernacular.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_03: So that's why we have lots of French carols that, you know, we could go up and we could look them up and find the French uh translations.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_03: We can find German translations for German carols that originated there.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_03: The word carol actually refers to music for dancing.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_03: So what a great idea to take music that everybody already knows and enjoys, and then add words that tell the story to sing it, uh, you know, to sing to it.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_03: So you could take a folk song like Greensleeves, and you change the words to tell the birth of Jesus, and now it's what child is this?
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_03: The history of the times of imagine minstrels and troubadours and minisingers taking these songs from town to town, spreading the music, but more importantly, spreading the word.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_03: So a lot of this music got out into the population through the troubadours and minstrels.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_03: They sang lots of other songs too.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_02: Sure, sure.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_02: But they they took a popular, well-known tune and connected.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, how how great for us to, you know, like how do kids learn the ABCs by tune with it with a with a melody.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_03: So a great way to learn and be able to um put the text to your heart by putting it, you know, memorizing it and learning it by using a song that they could already sing.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_03: They just didn't have words for it.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_03: Now they have words for the song.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_03: I thought that was just interesting.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, sure it is.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_02: Sure it is.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_02: Let's go to another very popular Christmas carol, uh Silent Night.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_02: And many might not realize that this very popular Christmas carol was written out of necessity on Christmas Eve in uh 1818 in Oberndorf, Austria, when a church uh broken church organ prompted uh the priest Joseph Moore to write lyrics uh to this very simple carol.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_02: So he asked his friend, uh the organist Franz Gruber to compose a melody for it to be sung uh with guitar accompany it.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_02: But yet this uh carol has endured in so many people's memories, and it still is uh uh one of the carols that is sung at a Christmas Eve service, if not uh the last carol, while people pass uh along a light uh at the final moments of that service.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_02: How did a carol like this become to have uh come to have such enduring memory, in your opinion?
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_03: Well, just and to add to what you're saying about its popularity, it is actually the most recorded Christmas song that goes from sacred to secular.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_03: It is the most recorded Christmas song.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_03: It still holds that title.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_03: I think Mariah Carries coming up close behind, but it's the most recorded one.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_03: Um so you've heard the saying less is more.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_03: And if you know me, which you do, I'm a kind of more is more type of gal.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_03: They give me instruments, a bunch of singers, some kids, percussion, the organ and the piano, and we have an extravaganza, you know?
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, so true.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_03: That is really me.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, and I love to raise the roof with joy and celebration.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_03: Just love to do that.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_03: But uh, if you ask me about my very truly favorite pieces of music, Christmas or otherwise, it's the quiet ones with the texts that really speak to our souls.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_03: And when the music and words combined and they just uh take you to a whole different place, it's almost ethereal and brings me to tears.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_03: So Silent Night has that effect.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_03: And the beauty is actually in the simplicity of both the text and the music.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_03: Both are easy to learn, both are easy to sing, and uh, we kind of leave all the hoopla behind.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_03: And there is so much hoopla at Christmas, you know, with with our lives as they are now.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_03: And we get to kind of leave that behind and just really put yourself right there with the holy family, right there in the manger, you know, right there with the with the baby in the manger.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_03: And one of the most moving parts of our Christmas Eve service is the singing of Silent Night to me with only the candles burning.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_03: So you're in the darkness, and uh, you know, we'd we we're at the end of the service, and I love that part.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_03: And like you said about passing the light, I especially loved it when I was a child.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_03: That don't happen so much anymore, but when I was a child and we passed the light of Christ, and then the pastor would come down the aisle and give it to the to the deacons or to the ushers, and the ushers would spread it into the congregation by the center aisle, and then you'd spread it down each pew, and you just saw this wave of light passing over the church.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_03: And I just loved that, and I just remember as a child and even as as a you know, a teen loving that part of the service and and and just how much light those little candles put out, and how much light even just my little candle put out, and uh thinking of Jesus being the light over all of us and the light in all of us, and us spreading that light outside of our church throughout the rest of the year and into the new year.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_03: So it really had a uh the imagery of that was really important and big to me.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_03: You know, when we go back to that first question you asked me about one of my early remembrances, that probably is one of the earliest things I remember is being little and being helped with my candle and watching out for the melting wax too, you know, making sure that so the wax didn't spill.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_03: So, and I guess the fire codes and the mess of the melting wax ended that for good reason, but on a spiritual emotional level, it was quite effective to me throughout my childhood.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_03: So I I do think it's the simplicity of the piece that it makes it so enduring.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_03: And maybe some other, you know, maybe lots of other people have those memories of that piece or specific memories of the gentleness and the quietness and certainly of that piece.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_02: Certainly, I don't think you're alone with that, Sally.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_02: No, let's go to one of the most uh enduring Christmas carols uh as far as uh the time in which it was written.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um, this might not be everybody's first carol that they think about, but uh this carol of the father's love begotten was written in the fourth century AD.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_02: And that's many, many years old.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_02: Can you give us some of the lyrics of this uh Christmas carol?
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_02: And what do these uh lyrics tell us about the Christmas story?
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_03: So it starts with the title, Of the Father's Love Begotten, Ere the Worlds Began to Be.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_03: He is Alpha and Omega, he the source and ending, he.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_03: That just says to me right there, God is with us from beginning to end.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_03: He's with us always, from now until forever.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_03: In the next verse, which is the second one in our hymnal, but I've found other verses in other printings of this song, but in our our hymnal it's a second verse.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_03: O ye heights of heaven, adore him, angel hosts, his praises sing, powers, dominions bow before him, and extol our God and king.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_03: Let no tongue on earth be silent, every voice in concert ring, evermore and evermore.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_03: So here I feel the hymn is calling for all creation to praise and re worship Christ, affirming his divine nature and his unity to the Trinity, to God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_03: And then every verse in this carol ending with evermore and evermore.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_03: We say it at the end of the first verse, evermore and evermore.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_03: We say it again at the second verse, evermore and evermore, and again and then at the third verse.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_03: So it's just the uh the truth that God remains with us throughout eternity.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_03: So it's it's a different message than many of our Christmas carols, kind of like like uh joy of the world is a different message.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_03: It's not really declaring the story, but it is telling us Jesus is divine.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_02: It is, it is a declaration like that.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and it is so forevermore and evermore.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: More.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_03: More.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_02: Let's go to the German tradition of Christmas carols.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_02: So a number of the ones that we've uh focused on so far have had uh uh English roots uh to them.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_02: Uh not all, but some.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um, the German uh tradition is really rich.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_02: Uh as you were talking about some of your experiences, some of my first experiences with Christmas carols is my German grandfather who would play German uh song uh at Christmas time.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_02: Uh one of those songs, Lo, How a Rose Are Blooming, or in German, es ist ein Ros and Sprungen, uh has definitely a number of uh correlations with uh Old Testament scripture.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_02: I was wondering if you might share a little bit of background on this hymn and what it also tells us about the Christmas message.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_03: So this hymn originated in manuscript in the late 16th century.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it it could have the the hymn, the hymn lyrics could have been built around before that, but it actually found it in a manuscript in the late 16th century.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_03: And then it was later set to music by Michael Praetorius in 1609.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_03: It was originally written in German and had many, many verses.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, we have three in our hymnal, but apparently there were many, many verses.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_03: Like some parts, some sites said 19 and other sites said 23, but we have three.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_03: And then most of them do respond or relate the events of Jesus' birth uh in Luke 1 and 2.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_03: The most commonly sung translation of the German are the verses 1 and 2 that we sing today.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_03: Lo, how a rose are blooming from tender stem hath sprung, of Jesse's lineage coming as men of old have sung.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_03: So Jesse's the father of King David and the royal line from which Jesus descended, and that comes from an ancient prophecy.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_03: Um so if we would cite Isaiah 11:1, and there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a branch shall grow out of his roots.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_03: So if we would talk about the Catholic tradition, in the Catholic tradition, some think the rose refers to the Virgin Mary, who is of Jesse's lineage, but others believe it can refer to Jesus, the flower from that stem.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_03: So much of the first and second verse do focus on the virgin birth and on Mary.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_03: But a third verse was added in 1875.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_03: In this verse, and this was very commonly sung as well when it became in it came into existence.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_03: In this verse, we expand the exist the significance of the rose.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_03: This flower whose fragrance tender with sweetness fills the air.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_03: This could also refer to Mary.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_03: But then the next phrase makes it clear.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_03: Dispels with glorious splendor the darkness everywhere.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_03: So this rose has the ability to dispel the darkness.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_03: This rose is the light.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_03: And of course, there's no ordinary flower that dispels light.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_03: Mary didn't dispel light.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_03: So it's clear now that this flower is Christ, the light of the world.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_03: And then to continue, true man yet very God, words from the Nicene Creed to describe Jesus' divinity.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_03: And finally, it petitions the flower to from sin and death now save us and lighten every load.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_03: So I think the uh third verse brings everything into focus.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_03: And it's not really a hymn now about Virgin Mary.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_02: No, you said the date on the hymn was 16.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_02: What was that?
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I can just make 16th century, late 16th century.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, so this is at the time shortly after that, you know, 1609 was when Michael Praetorius added words to it or added.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_02: And this is at the at the time of the Protestant Reformation, uh, too.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_03: So that could have been why there's like an argument about that, right?
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_02: Well, but it would still uh carry uh even Martin Luther and uh Philip Melancton and uh Schwankfeld would still hold to uh the virgin birth.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_02: Uh right.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_03: Oh yes, yes.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but not with um uh a special uh divinity of of of Mary, uh but rather with uh exactly yes, but holding to uh that uh Jesus is born of the virgin.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_02: That's good.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for sharing uh on that uh that interesting hymn.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_03: That's that's I just wanted to say one more thing too.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_03: Um I think the image, sorry, I didn't I forgot this.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_03: The image of the rose, I think blooming in the cold of winter is really pretty.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_03: The the imagery of that is pretty enduring, symbolizing the hope and new life in the midst of darkness and despair.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_03: You know, if you just picture, you know, a rose in the middle of winter.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_03: And I have a couple roses that are still on some of my plants right now, and they they are special little flowers to me.
• 26:25
  unknown: You know.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so I think the rose representing the birth of Jesus and his message of redemption, that that's that is just great imagery and uh you know serves to keep this hymn current and uh popular, I guess, or or or or well known.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, or valued, at least within church context.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, exactly.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_02: Of course, now we're living in a time where we don't uh hear Christmas carols out in the public in the same way.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_02: Uh when we were growing up, Sally, I I certainly remember going into department stores and hearing Christmas carols uh played uh through uh overhead speakers.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_02: But now we're hearing uh songs more like Mariah Carey's All I Want for Christmas Is You or Wham's Last Christmas I Gave You My Heart.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, as someone who is focused on music for much of your life, uh, what do you believe the effect is of substituting these type of modern songs for the older songs about Christmas in our society?
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_03: So, like let's let's look at this honestly.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_03: At one time, all Christmas music was sacred.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_03: It was all sacred because it was about Christmas, which is about Jesus and his birth.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_03: It wasn't about other things.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_03: So as time went on and we add jolly old Saint Nick to the mix, and you know, all the our whole society becomes more secularized and becomes more of the world and more commercial and less spiritual.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_03: We have the addition, of course, of music that reflects that.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_03: So several hundred years ago, Christians didn't sing about wanting two front teeth, or Christians didn't sing about a reindeer with a red nose or a Grinch, or even really about riding in a sleigh.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_03: That wasn't considered Christmas.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_03: Jingle bells is really not a Christmas song.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_03: It's an old song, but it's not about Christmas at all.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_03: It's about riding in a sleigh in the winter and how much fun that is, you know.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_03: But over the years, we've just added more and more wonderful Christmas music.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, a wealth of Christmas music, which includes some wonderful new sacred music to add to our already wonderful library of hymns and songs and carols, but also includes a plethora of secular music about Christmas donkeys and everything else.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_03: So now multitudes of people celebrate Christmas but never step foot into a church.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_03: Even we Christians can get caught up in the gift giving and the parties and the festivities.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_03: And when I asked the internet for the top ten Christmas songs played in the mall the four weeks before leading before Christmas and leading up to the day, not one of the songs was sacred.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_03: Instead, it was Santa Baby and Sleigh Ride and White Christmas, Felice Navidad, Rocking Around the Christmas tree, and all I want for Christmas is you.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_03: So it would seem the choice of music in the mall is influenced by the desire to reach as many people as possible, or regardless of religious belief, without any spirituality or religion involved in it.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_03: It's just a matter of how many people will like these songs.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_03: Well, anybody who celebrates Christmas.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_03: And truthfully, it's not just anybody who celebrates Christmas, because, you know, I would prefer to hear some other things in the mall.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_03: The music addresses the secular side of Christmas and may subtly, subtly be reminding you to get caught up in all the spending and all of the hoopla of the season.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_03: You know, but there's a bottom line, Drake.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_03: True Christmas music is about the birth of Jesus.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_03: So if it's really Christmas music, it's about Jesus.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_03: Jesus is free.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_03: You don't need money, you don't need to do anything except make room in your heart for him.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_03: But I don't know what's to say.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's just as a sign of our society, I think.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_02: Well, there's several opportunities in the life of uh the Central Schwankfelder Church to hear Christmas carols and cute and Christmas music uh this December.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_02: I was wondering if you could tell us about some of these uh events, so when they are and uh what people might uh expect to hear and enjoy.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_03: Well, it begins with Central's nine o'clock service on December 7th, in which we will present a service of lessons and carols.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_03: It is not the if you're familiar with a traditional service of lessons and carols where it kind of goes through the Christmas story.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_03: This is a little bit different.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_03: It's one in which we address in song and in word the Advent.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_03: We'll have three numbers referring to the Advent as we wait and hope for Christ's light to come.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_03: Then we have three numbers that are addressing his birth.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_03: So we consider the babe in a manger, we consider his battle with Satan, and then finally we consider his ultimate sacrifice in giving his life and saving us from sin.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_03: And then finally, we discuss the celebration.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_03: So we sing about three numbers.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_03: We have a number about the angel hosts announcing the birth.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_03: We have an invitation to come and make a commitment to follow the Christ child ourselves and become one of the faithful and come adore the child.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_03: So that's happening on December 7th at nine in the morning.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_03: That is also happening on December 7th at 2:30 in the afternoon with a larger group of singers called the United Schwenkfoder choirs.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_03: And it will also include a section of several selections that are sacred but not seasonal.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_03: So it'll start out with some general sacred music and then go into the lessons and carols segment.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_03: And again, we'll have a larger group for that in the same sanctuary at our at our church, but uh at 2.30 in the afternoon.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_03: And then there are we lots of music associated with our Christmas Eve services, incorporating handbells, brass, choirs, piano, and organ.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_03: Uh the children's service is at 2 o'clock and the traditional service is at 7 o'clock p.m., with a contemporary service at 10 30 a.m., all on December 24th.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_03: So that's what we have going on this year.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_02: Sounds sounds very good.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_02: And uh if uh you haven't attended the church and are looking forward to uh being blessed by Christmas music uh carols uh then and now we welcome you to these services.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_02: Sally, thank you so much for taking the time today to uh discuss about uh Christmas carols and wish you uh all the best in uh the this busy season uh with your directing and also uh singing and leading uh the music of the church.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_03: Pleasure to be here, Drake.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you for the opportunity.