Latest / Clear Path Christianity / I Ignored CRITICAL SIGNS that I was in a CULT || CPC Podcast Ep. 5
Transcript
- Cole Crone: a cult, you have a lot of hindsight thoughts. You have a lot of reflections when you come out of a group and the veil has been lifted from your eyes and you kind of see your history for what it really was rather than what you were told that it was. And so in that process, you think about the things that you would have done differently or that you would do differently, things that you wish you could do differently, things of that nature. You have a laundry list of regrets that you have to process and all of that. So one of the things that I think about a lot are like the very obvious telltale signs that I should have noticed that people who are in groups that have obvious cult and cult-like tendencies should have noticed, should be noticing. I wish someone would have made this for me 10 years ago, 15 years ago. So in this episode, we're going to look at the most significant signs that I ignored that in hindsight, I wish I hadn't. Number one, I'm calling no Q &A. ⁓ the truth welcomes examination. In ⁓ the apology, his apology, records Socrates as saying that the unexamined life is not worth living. So in other words, a life that is not consistently lived with self-reflection and consistent belief assessment and a ⁓ life lived virtue seeking. is a life that is devoid of purpose and value. And so one of the primary ways that someone might examine their life is to ask questions. Should I be doing this? Should I be doing that? Should I take this path? Should I go down that path? Is this really the most optimal worldview that makes the most sense of reality as I experience it, as I understand it? These types of things. But if you can't ask questions, then you are inevitably going to live a life that is not worth living. Because the ability to ask questions is, essential to a life lived in truth. So is there biblical support for what I'm saying? And I think there is. The Old Testament wisdom tradition states that it is good to hear both sides of an argument. ⁓ Proverbs 18, 17 says, the first one to plead his cause seems right until his neighbor comes and examines him. So. In that proverb, there's no expectation that the first person to go is to just be trusted. Rather, we're supposed to sit and wait for the second person to chime in to see what they think. The New Testament, the book of Acts, tells the story of the Bereans, the Bereans who are praised for testing Paul's teaching You see Acts 17, 10, and 11 specifically. They're questioning what they have been taught and they're examining Paul's teachings against the Scriptures. That to me seems to be indicative of people who are asking questions, seeking truth, and not just trusting everything that is presented to them. The third example, John tells his readers to, quote, test the spirits whether they are of God from 1 John 4.1. Even that which appears to be spiritual, even that which appears to be hyper spiritual is to be tested. So if the wisdom literature and biblical narrative and apostolic teaching all agree that it's good to ask questions and to test and to assess, then it seems that we ought to. So again, biblical faith, that is grounded in truth. invites testing, invites examination, invites thoughtful questions. A community that fears questions is a community that's not confident that they have obtained the truth. So that should be a big red flag. This is a big warning sign that that I missed. Where grew up, ⁓ nobody ⁓ was asking questions. Either they didn't care or they had questions and ⁓ had a bad experience or... Whatever, nobody was asking questions. My suggestion as a former cultist is that you leave ⁓ any group, religious or otherwise, that does not allow you to ask questions. If you're not allowed to question, the assertions, the premises upon which the group is based. Big red flag. that's a major sign of a high control or cult-like environment. I wish I had learned earlier on in my life that the way people answer... Questions reveals a lot about their character. this is the one thing that I really wish in hindsight, I had been a lot more aware of I was, I was listening for content. Okay. Which is typical, right? If you ask a question, you're trying to get information. So it's, it's only natural that you're listening for content. I should have been. listening very closely ⁓ character signals, Here's some of the worst examples of bad answers to good questions. So I ask a good question and I would get a response like this. That's just the way we do it. That's just the way it is. That's just the way this church is set up. Some version of that. of a deflection answer, right? In other words, you don't have the answer. Just say you don't have the answer. rather than answer that, rather than offer that nonsense, just say don't have an answer. but I received that answer to most of my questions. The second most popular answer I would get had a different flavor. One might say, you're asking that question, you must be really lost. If you're gonna ask that question, you... you might be further from the path than we thought, This is obvious way to ⁓ get you to question yourself, It's the way to deflect the question ⁓ onto the questioner and to get them to double think, triple think. Maybe I am the one, right? Now the worst answer, the one that frustrated me the most growing up, I don't know if it was the most common but it was the one that I hated hearing the most. And it was some version of this. You really need to start talking to some older people so that you learn how to have more faith. You know, if you would just spend more time around these older, you know, mature folks, you wouldn't have all of these questions. You wouldn't have all of these concerns, Just surround yourself with ⁓ more mature people, And ⁓ that me because there's obviously some truth to that, There's obviously some truth that, I that's how mentorship works, this, you know, life on life, this is how biblical discipleship works, You find somebody that's further along the path than you and you follow them, And you bring somebody with you. That's kind of that two-way mentorship, two-way discipleship is supposed to work. So I knew there was a little bit of truth to that, but it was annoying because I didn't want to follow any of the people around me because I just thought, talk about the blind leading the blind. Nobody here has the answers. So I knew there was a little bit of truth to that, but it was annoying because I didn't want to follow any of the people around me because I just thought, talk about the blind leading the blind. Nobody here has the answers. to even the most basic questions, let alone, you know, higher level, you know, worldview level sort of questions. They're just, there just weren't any answers. to even the most basic questions, let alone, you know, higher level, you know, worldview level sort of questions. They're just, there just weren't any answers. And so I would continuously ask and continuously receive bad answers to good questions. All of those answers are just non-answers. So not only do they not provide any content, but They are dead giveaways of poor characters. If you ask a question and you get a good answer that is thoughtfully and lovingly given, that's a sign of Christ-likeness. Anything else isn't. These sorts of answers reveal ⁓ least three things. One, insecurity. If you ask a question and you get some version of those three answers, ⁓ ⁓ you're asking is insecure about their own grasp of truth. Second, it shows avoidance. Either they don't care about you enough to actually answer your question. Or they have time for you. Maybe they don't. no matter how you slice that, that's not a, that's not a Christ-like posture to have towards someone who asks questions. And third, it's just good old fashioned spiritual manipulation. I mean, that's just what it is. Like, if somebody's asking you a spiritual question and you give them a flippant non-answer, That's just spiritual manipulation. You're just trying to get that person to believe that they're the one with the deficiency rather than you being the one who doesn't have any of the answers. Christians are called to answer questions with ⁓ gentleness respect. 1 Peter 3, 15. Point number two, is the issue of the relationship between and scripture. There are a bunch of problems that arise when tradition is elevated above scripture. The first one ⁓ is the problem of unchangeable if a tradition, any tradition, outranks the teachings of scripture, then to question that tradition becomes equivalent to questioning God. So this creates a closed system of authority, right? It takes place in three steps. ⁓ Step number one, leaders create traditions. Step number two, traditions gain authority. And then step number three, those traditions cannot be questioned. That system inevitably protects power rather than truth. This is very common dynamic The second one is that ⁓ scripture, which is if you believe there's a such thing, ⁓ is ⁓ God-breathed, right? Is inspired God. So it has a completely different ⁓ ontological property than tradition does because it's it's it's ontological grounding is in God and tradition its Ontological grounding is in man. So that's the difference. What is the foundation of the two scripture of God tradition of men So when that dynamic gets thrown off, scripture can then be reinterpreted to fit the system. So when tradition becomes the authority, scripture is no longer the standard, Rather, it becomes a tool that is used to defend the system. And there's ⁓ this cycle. Instead of asking, what does the Bible say in context, according to the plain reading and using a responsible hermeneutic biblical interpretation? What does this text actually say? Rather than asking that question, many groups, like the one that I came from, says, How can we interpret scripture support what we already do? ⁓ We have this structure that be questioned. And so anything that we think might challenge that, we have to, we can't entertain that. That's no good. so this authority structure becomes self-justifying, It's this vicious cycle. Let's look at some biblical data. Jesus explicitly condemns, explicitly condemns elevating human tradition over God's Word. He says this, for laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men, the washing of pitchers and cups and many other such things you do. Okay? So they have these commandments that they dismiss. in order to uphold their traditions, Which are just meaningless practices, washing. pitchers, cups, utensils, their hands constantly. But meanwhile they're rejecting the commandment of God. So Jesus's critique of the religious leaders is not that they have traditions, ⁓ it's rather he's criticizing them because they've elevated those above the Scriptures. They're meant to be these learned men teaching God's Word. but they have all these things that are manmade, that are getting in their way of rightly interpreting and applying that word. So let's look again at 2 Timothy 3, 16 and 17. Notice that scripture, as I said before, is inspired. The word literally means God breathed, theopneustos in the Greek. And it's this combination of just literally just God and spirited or breathed, put together, And that just ⁓ definition means that it carries a different kind of authority, If God is the utmost authority, then His Word would have the utmost authority, certainly above any of our man-made traditions. the second thing that we want to notice is that the Scripture equips us fully. Just look at the terms that are used in this verse. Complete, thoroughly equipped, every good work, So it seems that there's no extra biblical tradition necessary. Now the extra biblical tradition might be great, There might not be anything wrong with it. I'm a huge fan of tradition. I'm actually somebody who ⁓ likes the idea of a more ⁓ traditional, historic, ancient sort of expression of Christianity. But if at any point we have this imbalance, that's gonna be a big, big, big red flag for me. So ⁓ in conclusion, ⁓ to this section, healthy Christian communities operate on a hierarchy of authority. In position number one, you have scripture. if you're Roman Catholic or you're Eastern Orthodox, you're going to put, ⁓ know, you're going to put the councils and ⁓ things ⁓ that ⁓ par. But ⁓ always cohesive. they're, always, you can't have, know, scripture is at least ⁓ component of that top spot. It is a final authority or it is the final authority. One of the two. And then number two, so below scripture, you have historic Christian teaching, Which is helpful guidance. Like ⁓ explained it like ⁓ it's guardrails. It's like the bumpers on a ⁓ bowling lane. Like if you go bowling and you put the bumpers up, it prevents you from going into the gutter, The historic teachings are like the Christian version of bumpers, And then third, have church leadership, which are supposed to be submitted to both of the layers above them, This the idea of the servant leadership. Accountable servants, Not tyrants. each level needs to be corrected by the level above, And this protects, the church from abuses. And the third and final piece of this from my experience, is this idea of leaving being the ultimate sin. If leaving your church, if leaving your congregation, if leaving any particular affiliation is seen as the ultimate sin, not necessarily like, you know, forsaking your faith or, turning from the idea of objective truth altogether or... Not, not, not that not extreme moves, but just not wanting to be a part of this particular community, this small conglomeration of individuals. If, if breaking out of that is the worst sin that a person can commit, then that's a big red flag. There is an old saying that I heard a lot. ⁓ after, after I left the cult, I wish I'd heard it a lot more. it goes like this. If you wanna know whether or not you're in a cult, try leaving, If you get a certain amount of pushback, that you think might be. too much pushback, that should make you think. Healthy communities allow you to leave, while cults make it extremely difficult. In normal Christian churches, people come and go for a variety of reasons. ⁓ People move to another city. people choose to attend church with their family members. They might even choose another denomination. I know people who have gone from Baptist to Presbyterian and Presbyterian to Lutheran and Lutheran to Catholic and right. mean, you can go all around and nobody is acting like you've abandoned Christ, you've taken up with this other religion, Sometimes it's just ⁓ personal preference. I feel more connected to the Lord when I go to that church than if I go to that one. It could just be that simple. And if ⁓ is blown way out of proportion, like if you're in a group that you've seen people be excommunicated or be shunned or anything like that, just simply for leaving and going and finding a community elsewhere, that's a big sign that I wish I had paid more attention to in hindsight. Because healthy churches prioritize the kingdom of God, That's like the first line one of first lines in the Lord's Prayer, Is that our desire should be that the kingdom would come on earth as it is in heaven. And so if you're group is not prioritizing the kingdom and rather just insulating in their little group, that should be a big sign that something is amiss. Now, cultic groups on the other hand, so we have what normal churches are supposed to look like. Cultic groups on the other hand, people leaving is the biggest threat to the system. In experience, it's even the mere suggestion of leaving creates a dumpster fire of ⁓ potential ⁓ They follow a pattern. they might start with concern, If cult begins to recognize you drifting, they might come to you with concern at first, Oftentimes it'll be members or close friends that will come to you with what appears to be genuine concern. Now, if that doesn't elicit the response that they're going for, the second step, the ⁓ escalation, is gonna like some kind of psychological pressure. as group members sort of subtly attempt to get you to question your sanity, Surely you're not entertaining this as an option, We were concerned when you were just sort of on the outside, but now we think maybe you're crazy. Maybe you're questioning things that ought not be questioned. Okay, and this will generally escalate before they let you go. This will generally escalate to ⁓ threats of some kind that are meant to create emotional, social, or spiritual fear. Now again, the biblical data is not on the side of this sort of thing. Christians Christian leaders are called to shepherd people, not control them. There's a big difference. Okay, let's look at 1 Peter again, chapter five, verses two and three. Peter says this, ⁓ shepherd the of God, which is among you, serving as overseers, not by compulsion, but willingly, not for dishonest gain, but eagerly, nor as being lords over those entrusted to you. but be examples to the flock, If Jesus is the good shepherd, then we are to shepherd the flock as he did. And so that would be the major difference between shepherding and control. Leadership in the church is meant to be ⁓ spiritual leadership, not coercion. So there's, ⁓ even in groups, there is a lot of this of thing that goes on. And it's just not helpful. It's just not good. for people, know, constantly threatening hell fire is probably not gonna really get you anywhere. It's just, it's gonna keep butts in the seat. If that's all you're going for, then I guess good on you, but it's not gonna actually create people that are really dedicated to what you're selling. truth does not trap people, Only lies require cages. And so if you have the truth, if your group is teaching the truth, then you shouldn't have any of these three signs. So in conclusion, ⁓ why does this It seems to me ⁓ that that there are at least three things. Number one, people should be free to ask questions. Not only should they be free to ask questions, but they be getting loving and thoughtful answers. So it isn't enough to just allow people to ask questions. If people are allowed to ask questions, but all they get is non-answers, that doesn't really do any good. Number two, tradition is great. As I said, I'm a huge fan of tradition. But I'm a huge fan of tradition when it complements scripture. When the two work together. That's when I'm a big fan of it. as soon as that imbalance comes in... I'm kind of out and think you ⁓ to be considering looking for the exits as well. number three, healthy churches operate on freedom. While operate on control. If ⁓ you're forcing people by some kind of social or emotional or spiritual leverage to stay within the group, you're not really creating dedicated followers of Christ. You're not really creating dedicated disciples of Christ. You're just keeping people in a system that is fear-based. And the whole reason that is the case is because the system depends on it. The system depends on fear. and control and oppression and these sorts of things. So hopefully me going through these points and talking about the things that I really wish I had been paying more attention to. But you know, I probably didn't want to know. when there's a cost to leaving, it makes it more difficult, obviously, So hopefully this provides you with a little bit more of some categories that you can work with, some signs that you can look for in your own communities. whether they're religious or not. These are things that will hopefully help you see a little bit more clearly the sorts of groups and people that you're associating yourself with. Hope this was helpful.