Latest / MIDDLE GROUND - Real Conversations on Faith, Identity & Becoming — Through Brynne's LDS Lens of Curiosity, Love and Doubt / Ryan Liston - What to Say (And What Not to Say) When a Loved One Leaves the Church + Faith Transition
Transcript
- Brynne Erickson (00:28) Okay, Ry, you had quite the response from our last chat. I dropped your podcast episode, And you let everyone know and had a lot of people reach out to you. So I wanted to follow up with you about that. So what did you do and what happened? Tell us. Ryan Liston (00:52) Yeah, it was, it has been quite the experience. So I just did the social media thing. I put a social media story out there, Instagram, Facebook, and said, hey guys, this has happened. My sister and I have recorded a podcast. It's about my faith journey. I've had lots of people ask me about it over the years, and so it finally was me putting it out there. which felt surprisingly vulnerable. This is a decision and a path I've been taking for a lot of years, but I hadn't done anything to make it public in any way because I am not much of a social media user anyways. And I was pretty nervous. I was shockingly nervous about it. I was surprised to myself how nervous I was about putting it out there. It felt... I guess I felt I was, two things were happening. I was opening myself to a lot of judgment, which, I mean, I'm like anybody else. I feel insecurity about other people not liking me or whatever feeling, negative feelings towards me. the other one was I was nervous about like making a timestamp story that people in five years would potentially listen to and say, oh. That's what Ryan believes and that's how he believes when in reality like I guess I talked about the podcast episode it probably in a year from now it'll probably look different. I'll probably think things different. I'll have a different story to share. So anyways, that was nerve-racking but I've had an amazing response. I've had a really great response to it. ⁓ Most actually everybody who's reached out to me which has been a lot of people I've probably had 30 40 plus people reach out to me and Brynne Erickson (02:25) Absolutely. Ryan Liston (02:45) express really kind feelings. Some have been just like, hey, I loved your story, thanks for sharing. And other people have have said things like, hey, it was really insightful. Thank you. And then I've had some people who have really reciprocated a sharing with me. And so people I haven't seen in over a decade have reached out to me and Brynne Erickson (03:11) Cool. Ryan Liston (03:15) I had a couple of people like bear their souls to me, tell me about the experiences they've gone through for the last 10, 15 years, ⁓ what their transitions have looked like, or some people who even have remained ⁓ active participants in the LDS faith, which is where I'm coming from and made a faith transition in a direction not towards the LDS faith, but. ⁓ Yeah, I've had some people who have said, yeah, I'm still participating, yet some of what you said really rang true and really, really helped me. ⁓ Or just really was on par with some of the experiences I've had. And it's been beautiful to behold. It's been cool to feel some of that acceptance and it's also really neat to connect with people in this way. I've even set up a couple lunches with people I haven't seen in ⁓ years and years because we reconnected over this, which has been neat, very neat. Brynne Erickson (04:25) Very cool. So obviously you, it's not like you made the decision to leave the church and then all of a sudden we're willing to share your story overnight, right? Like this has been years of figuring out and getting to a place that you were actually willing to talk about your story publicly. So. Ryan Liston (04:37) No. Brynne Erickson (04:53) But you and I had a lot of awesome conversations from the beginning of your journey and trying to figure out what you wanted to believe and who you wanted to be. So what has been helpful in this process of wanting to talk to someone about your beliefs and about your questions? Ryan Liston (05:06) Yeah. Brynne Erickson (05:24) helpful and unhelpful, whichever one comes to mind first. Ryan Liston (05:28) Yeah, I think I'll maybe give an answer first that isn't exactly what you asked, but I think, ⁓ so you asked me like, what's been helpful to be able to talk about and like bring up the people and approach those conversations. I think I do want to make just a general comment about where people might be in their journeys ⁓ and what that might look like. When I first started in this journey, I don't know that it would have been helpful for people to bring it up to me. Brynne Erickson (05:37) Okay. Ryan Liston (05:58) Like I talked to our parents about it pretty early on, very early on, and they just didn't really talk about it with me. And while that created some, there was some stress there, like when I'd go home and parents would want to do a scripture study together, I would participate and it felt like maybe they were targeting scriptures at me. But we didn't really, and I don't, to this day I don't think they are, regardless of whether they were or not, I don't care. ⁓ But there was some... Brynne Erickson (06:24) Mm-hmm. Ryan Liston (06:27) stress and struggle in that experience, but they didn't really talk to me about it. And there might be some people who need that, but I would say more than anything it's worth asking. So that's kind of the first thing I want say is if you're somebody who is on the other end of this, and maybe this is a question you're going to ask later, if you're on the other end of this, meaning you're not the person going through the faith transition, you're a family member, you're a friend, you're an associate, Brynne Erickson (06:40) you Mm-hmm. Ryan Liston (06:57) ⁓ It could be helpful just to ask and say, hey, what do you need? Is it helpful for me to ask you questions about it? Is it not? Do you want me to just keep treating you with love? And I think then to your, well, again, the bridge between the two, the question you asked and what I'm saying right now, is the most helpful thing you can do is to choose kindness and just choose love. Always. That's always the most helpful thing you can do for a person. There might be times when Brynne Erickson (07:03) you Ryan Liston (07:27) that what that looks like can be very different and can change, but that's always the most helpful thing you can do in that. Even with our parents who we didn't talk about it until I brought it up just later and our mother's response was, was waiting for you to talk to me about it. And I kept being like, well, and also like, I was kind of waiting for you to bring it up and neither of us did. They still led with love. They chose love as the option. Brynne Erickson (07:37) Yeah. Ha ha ha ha. Yeah. Ryan Liston (07:56) Like there was. They still wanted me around, they still invited me, and we actually didn't have the conversation, so we weren't creating friction. Our parents weren't asking me to come back to church. They were letting me take whatever experience I needed, and they were letting me follow it. ⁓ Yeah, and I know that I did maintain some qualities that they respected, like being a kind person and not choosing anger. I know, like I said in the last episode, anger makes sense. get there's a lot of reasons for anger, but I didn't choose it and that probably did make it easier in some ways. Brynne Erickson (08:38) I think, but I think you were angry. Like you were upset. Like you voiced that to me, but you didn't act out in, you didn't hurt anyone. You didn't try to say things that were hurtful with that intent. But you definitely felt the emotion of frustration and anger. So I think it's important to separate the two. Like you can feel frustration, anger, ⁓ rage. Ryan Liston (08:43) for sure. I had anger. Yeah, there you go. That's fair. Yeah, ⁓ for sure. Brynne Erickson (09:06) whatever you need to feel, but then how you choose to act and share that with the world, I think can make a difference. yeah, allowing the feelings, but then choosing to act out in kindness and trying to understand and be understood versus attacking and retribution, maybe. Ryan Liston (09:30) Yeah, yeah, there you go. That's a great way to put it. I think it's great to feel the emotion. You don't always have to act on or be the emotion. ⁓ Yeah, so that's great to point out. And yeah, I've chosen to do that and I get it. There's lots of reasons to feel it and to want to act out. I totally get you if that's who you are and you're listening to this. ⁓ But it probably helped that I didn't, at least with the relationship I was in. Brynne Erickson (09:40) There we go. Yeah. Ryan Liston (09:59) with family and different friends and whatnot. So anyways, leading with love was very helpful. And so to anybody out there who's listening and has a loved one going through a phase transition, or you're just wondering, hey, I have friends doing this, or I'm in religious situation, a congregation, and I see people talking about things in a new way, I think being kind and asking questions on how they're doing and looking at. all the other aspects of them as a human being is gonna be way more helpful. Yeah, that's, sorry, that was not the question you asked me. But that was the tangential, think, into now what did I, what was helpful for me to talk about with people? Brynne Erickson (10:37) That was beautiful. It was exactly what we needed to hear. Ryan Liston (10:50) In the beginning honestly, it was just helpful to be able to say the words and have people not judge me for it ⁓ Because I was experiencing something that for me I know for some people It seems like they're doing it seamlessly because they probably come at you with like this is how I feel This is exactly everything. These are this is wrong. That's wrong This is I can't believe that I was taught this or my religion said this or My societal experience is this. can't believe it. How dare they? This is all bad. ⁓ And while some of those like can feel like an attack, most of the time it's not an attack and most of the time it's the person just experiencing what they're experiencing. Our human brains don't have the ability to like to regulate and our emotions don't have the ability to regulate difficult things. Like you can even be in a situation and be like, I should not be feeling as frustrated as I am and yet I am just so vehemently angry. Maybe you can. Brynne Erickson (11:34) I agree. Ryan Liston (11:52) actively think and say, is this making me so angry? And yet still be feeling massive amounts of frustration. our brains and emotions don't have the ability to just connect with our thoughts. So, ⁓ yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, when it's a new thought and you're like connecting with the thought and yet you don't know what to do with it. And so it was helpful for me just to get to say the words, ⁓ to just speak it out loud, especially as somebody who does. Brynne Erickson (12:03) Especially when it's a new thought and you're trying to make sense of it, right? Ryan Liston (12:21) seek external validation, it was helpful to be able to like express it and have people not attack me for my experiences. I was fortunate at the time to have a roommate, an amazing roommate who I would just tell him like, I don't know that I believe in God. And he's like, okay, like, that's fine. Like, are you okay? You good? Are you good? Can I help you and all? And I'd be like, I don't know. I like I was sobbing in our room the other night. Brynne Erickson (12:43) There we go. Ryan Liston (12:48) And you weren't there while you weren't there. And he's like, oh man, I'm super sorry. Like, what can I do? Right. And for me, would, I would, it would be a church day and I'd be like, ah man, I don't know that I can, I can do this today. And he'd be like, well, that's fine. I don't really need to go either. Should we go for a hike? Like not that he needed to do that for me, but that was very helpful for him just to recognize that it was hard. It was difficult. Most people who are going through, um, Brynne Erickson (12:48) Mmm. Well, just that simple question of what do you need? What can I do for you? And then you get to decide rather than them trying to fix in the way that they feel is right. And then that comes across as unhelpful. But actually asking, like, what do you need me to do? And most of the time it's like, I don't know, or nothing. But thank you for just hearing me, just being here for me. Like, it's that simple. We kind of overcomplicate it by trying to fix it. Ryan Liston (13:18) Yeah, what do you need? That's true. Yeah, because it usually is unhelpful. Yeah, most of the time people don't know. Yeah. Brynne Erickson (13:43) when really it's as simple as I'm just here if you need me. Ryan Liston (13:46) Yeah, yeah, and that's very helpful. And that was actually you. Those were the kind of conversations you and I had where I told you, was like, I don't think I believe in God. And you're like, okay, like you good? And Dallin, your husband was like, you good? Not really, but I don't know what else to say. Like I cry a lot trying to believe in God. I don't know how. And like, that's hard. And I'm at BYU and that makes it harder. Brynne Erickson (13:52) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, not... Yeah. Ryan Liston (14:15) And you guys were just like, well, like, you're good, man. Like, we're here for you. We love you. And I recognize not everybody gets that from the people around them. But I will say that on the other side of that same coin is to also respect the person that you're telling the experience to, their experience of receiving your story, right? ⁓ Because it is going to be uncomfortable for quite a few people. And... Brynne Erickson (14:21) Yeah, you got this. Yep, she's. Ryan Liston (14:44) and as much as we want to be accepted, ⁓ and it is helpful for the listener to be like, hey, I'm here for you regardless. ⁓ It is important to also recognize that while you're struggling, they also might struggle with the answer, with what you're saying to them. And so... Brynne Erickson (15:01) Yeah. Ryan Liston (15:07) not that's that's i guess i would say i don't actually know how to navigate that exactly but it was helpful for me to be able to say the words and have people just receive them and not try to fix me Brynne Erickson (15:21) I love that. And I know the first time that you shared with me when you were living in my apartment on our futon during COVID. And I remember mom had been like, so Rye is going through some stuff. And I was like, like what? Like, is he sick? Like, and no one would tell me what was going on. And they're like, well, he'll talk to you when he's ready. And I'm like, ⁓ Ryan Liston (15:29) Yep. ⁓ Thank man. What is happening? Brynne Erickson (15:46) And so here you are living in our little tiny apartment with us in our front room on the futon. And I remember we were on the futon and I don't even remember how it got brought up, but we started talking about religion and where you were. I think you brought it up. I think you were like, I've been meaning to talk to you guys. Yeah. And so you sat down with us and you, I don't remember specifics. Do you remember what we talked about exactly? Okay. Ryan Liston (16:01) I did. I like, snatched you guys down and was like, I need to talk to you guys. I mean, I know I would have told you that I didn't believe in that same God anymore. Brynne Erickson (16:15) Yeah, so something to that extent. I remember I definitely felt uncomfortable. And I was like, I don't know what to do. I don't know what to say. And I remember that I, but I thought of questions that I asked you like, okay, well, what do you believe in? What do you know? What, where are you with this concept or whatnot? Ryan Liston (16:22) you Brynne Erickson (16:43) And even with Kragan, when he came out as gay, it was kind of the same process. Like, OK, I have some questions that I would like to know to better understand you and where you're at and how can I support you and who can I be for you? And that was really helpful in both of these situations. And it's funny, I don't even know what prompted me to do that. But. It has helped in so many other scenarios of talking about religion or identity, or even I've talked about abortion with people and politics and harder topics with the same concept of what do you believe? What, how can I support you? Or, you know, we don't have to see things the same way, but I appreciate your insight and sharing that with me. It's hard to have this conversation. So thank you for trusting me enough to have this dialogue. And yeah, you have to practice. Unfortunately, talking about hard things does not come naturally. And it is not always pretty. And sometimes it ends poorly. But thank goodness you can always go back and say sorry. And. Ryan Liston (17:50) That's true. Brynne Erickson (18:03) I really, you you can apologize, you can practice. And for me, it's definitely the more I am willing to talk about these hard things with people, the easier it gets. And honestly, the more fun it gets. And just the less I feel a need to prove people, because I've just accepted that everybody is on their own journey of becoming, and that's why we're here. And, um... You kind of initiated this whole process for me, right, on your own journey. So thank you for being brave to see who you wanted to be and what you wanted to believe, because it allowed me to do the same and get curious about more people and how they're approaching their journeys of becoming. Ryan Liston (18:37) Hmm. Thanks, Brynny. You've done it. You've definitely been at it. I mean, that's why we're here right now is because you've been putting a lot of work and effort into it to making that happen. Brynne Erickson (18:55) Yeah. Yeah. Ryan Liston (19:05) You talk to a lot of people, you've gone through a lot of what people would probably consider hard or uncomfortable conversations, and you now receive them very well. Yeah, mean, yeah, you've had great conversations with people who have even told me that you've had great conversations with them, It's great. Brynne Erickson (19:13) thanks. I don't do surface level. I once talked to a girl, we were doing a play date at the park and I, I, I easily bring up religion so easily. And you want to know my question? My question is, so do you do the church thing? And so that's what I ask people, especially here in Utah, cause a lot of people are LDS have been LDS are familiar with it. And so I'll just be like, so do you do the church thing? Ryan Liston (19:25) Thank What is it? Yeah Brynne Erickson (19:50) And that opens the door. And it's been, I don't even know where that question came to me from, but it's just non-threatening and open for interpretation. And it's been really fun. So I was at the park with this mom, and I am sure I asked that question. She's from New York or something. And I was like, how'd you end up in Utah? Da da da. The next thing I know, we are talking about like, Ryan Liston (19:53) Mm-hmm. Brynne Erickson (20:20) our universal or our perspectives on eternity and her growing up and how hard that was. And I don't even know like how many siblings she has, like basic information, but we were able to dive into her beliefs about the Bible and what it means to be an eternal being. Like this was like day one. We'd maybe talked for two hours. So. It's just, it's fun to have those conversations. And I feel honored that people allow me into those spaces, into their lives. Hence why I'm doing this podcast. Cause it's so fun and I love it. And I feel honored every time I get to talk to someone, but I don't know how we got off on this tangent about me, but, you've shared some awesome perspective on how to have these hard conversations. What's been helpful and unhelpful. And you brought up a good point too. Ryan Liston (21:07) That's cool. Brynne Erickson (21:19) that made me think of someone that I was talking to. And I said, who has left the church. And I asked her, if someone asked you about your story, would you be willing to share it? And she said, you know, I don't know. And I think that's the problem is so many of us on the outside are like, well, I don't want to offend. And I don't want to bring up something that I shouldn't. And then the person on the side of questioning their faith. and their religion doesn't even know if they wanna talk about it or maybe they don't wanna talk about it. So everybody's just kinda tiptoeing around what hasn't been said and everyone's making assumptions about each other rather than actually talking about it. But I think that bridge is kind of what your roommate did, right? Like if the person isn't going to come to you, obviously you can wait and be patient. see that they do come to you. But I think even just that, I want you to know I'm here for you if you ever want to talk. I'm listening here. Do you agree? Ryan Liston (22:25) Yeah, yeah, so helpful. It is so helpful. I've, that's been, that has been my experience. ⁓ Yeah, that's been my experience. Brynne Erickson (22:35) Mine too. Anything that you would say maybe steer clear from. Ryan Liston (22:45) Like conversation topics or questions as you know. Well, yeah, I mean. Brynne Erickson (22:47) I don't know, just anything that you found unhelpful. Ryan Liston (22:57) Questions that use the word why when it comes to faith transitions are difficult. Like, why don't you believe in God? Why don't you? Why are you leaving the church? I mean, those are just, they're like, they're pointed questions. I mean, there's lots of why questions you can ask, but I feel like the ones that usually come out when I'm sharing my experience with somebody are more, like, feel underlying aggressive because the person wants to. Brynne Erickson (23:06) Ooh. Ryan Liston (23:27) wants to understand but they're they're doing it in they usually just feel like a more aggressive way you can i guess you can you can tell the people who are asking in a more kind way because they usually lead with something like okay well do you do the church thing like you brought up or what has been your experience as you've transitioned away from the church ⁓ how has that been what does that look like what do you believe what is your belief in god then ⁓ Do you have a belief in God? And the other question, this is gonna be very LDS specific, so anybody who's listening to this, but it might also translate to some other ones, ⁓ asking, have you ever had a spiritual experience? ⁓ That one is like, I actually would steer clear from that as much as possible. ⁓ My only reason for that one is because. Brynne Erickson (24:14) Huh. Why? Ryan Liston (24:21) For the people who and maybe I'm wrong. This is gonna be my opinion I'll make a disclaimer here. This is my opinion So there's lots gonna be lots of people out there who disagree and don't take this as like a gospel truth Feel free to ask the question if you feel compelled to it. This is Ryan's interpretation This is my experience, but nine out of ten times when that question is asked it Feels and I've I've had conversations with people also who have been who have moved away from the LDS church Brynne Erickson (24:35) This is Ryan's experience. Okay. Ryan Liston (24:49) or a kind of influx, when this question comes up, it feels aggressive. It feels like the person is trying to pull out of you your reasons why you should stay in the faith. Like haven't you had spiritual experiences so that you will remember why you believed in this and why you did all these things and why you're wrong that you're choosing to move away from it? And... Brynne Erickson (25:12) Yeah. Ryan Liston (25:21) It's not, it's just not helpful. It doesn't actually help because the person is already in a frustrated state, or an anxious state, they've accepted it already. And so that, for some reason that question, ⁓ or like, haven't you ever believed? Haven't you believed this? It's like, well yeah, or maybe, but I'm now choosing something else, or now I don't know how to believe like I did before. Anyways, guess ⁓ questions that specifically try to point the person to be something that they're not anymore are difficult. Those are difficult. Those are unhealthy. Brynne Erickson (26:05) Yeah, because I'm trying, it seems complex, right? It's like we're telling people when you want to engage with someone who's on a faith transition, make sure you're asking the right kind of questions. And then they're like, ⁓ how do I know what the right kind of questions are? So I mean, the best advice we could probably give to someone who's trying to support someone in a faith transition, I would think number one is be honest. Like, I love you so much and I know this is hard and I don't want to offend you. Ryan Liston (26:19) What are those? Yeah. Yeah. Brynne Erickson (26:34) That's the last thing I want to do. Lead with love and honesty. Yeah, lead with love and honesty and just what do you need? Ryan Liston (26:47) Yeah, that's fair. If you... And if you genuinely feel like you can't lead with love, lead with love in the moment, as in you can't move past the fact that transition is happening, and that you... that's all you can see about the person. If that's the only lens you have, is that they are supposed to be a part of that faith, and you can't see any other part of the person, the fact that they have... Brynne Erickson (26:49) Do you want to talk about it? Ryan Liston (27:15) so many other qualities in life experiences and things about them, that's okay, but also be honest with yourself about that. And if you can't lead with that kind of love, I then think the best thing you can do, like you were just saying, is to just ask, what can I do? ⁓ And for anybody who's listening to this and you're in transition, you also have to respect their experience and you can't say, well, I need you to also do what I'm doing, right? That's not useful, but you can say, okay, you can be honest with them about if you do need something, ⁓ but it would be something more like what I need is that we can at least treat each other with respect or that... Brynne Erickson (27:39) Yes. ⁓ to see things my way. Mm-hmm. Ryan Liston (28:06) you won't ask me why I'm doing what I'm doing and you'll instead ask if you can be helpful. Anyways, those would be some of my spots there. Brynne Erickson (28:20) Yeah, and that's, it's so hard because you don't mean to hurt someone's feelings. At least I think most people in families don't, but there might be people that want. Ryan Liston (28:29) Most people aren't trying to, but there might be moments. Brynne Erickson (28:34) But yeah, I truly believe that honesty is a good place to start and be like, if I say something, please let me know, help me understand both ways. Right. and I will be honest with you and we'll keep working at this because I cherish this relationship with you and I love you so much that I want us to be able to figure this out. ⁓ and it'll take practice for sure. Ryan Liston (29:03) That's really beautiful. ⁓ Brynne Erickson (29:05) But yeah, there isn't one set formula. But I know for me, one of the most helpful thoughts has been ⁓ to just believe that everything is going to work out and be OK. Like truly trusting that no matter what choices people make, it's all going to work out just fine. And. I think that's why Jesus came. least that's what I've chosen to believe is that because of Him, everything's going to work out okay. But other people might explain that another way. But that belief, regardless of the source that it comes from, that it's going to be okay because love is bigger, love is stronger, love is the best way. And I'm going to trust that. Ryan Liston (30:00) kidding that's beautiful Brynne Erickson (30:03) Thanks, Ry. We're all doing it. We're figuring out this life and who we want to be and trying to love and support each other along the way and saying sorry when we need to. Ryan Liston (30:09) Mmm. Brynne Erickson (30:18) Just assuming that the other people love us is very helpful. So when they do say something that you're like, I didn't really love that, but I'm going to choose to believe that they're not out to get me. And they didn't mean to hurt my feelings, but that did hurt. And obviously, can't navigate other people's feelings or tiptoe around them or take ownership for them. Ryan Liston (30:46) ownership. Brynne Erickson (30:47) ⁓ Just do our best. Anyway, any last thoughts? This was perfect. Ryan Liston (30:56) No, I think we covered a night. Nevermind. This is great. No, this was lovely. Brynne Erickson (31:06) Do we need to have another episode on another topic that came to mind? that what you're telling me? Ryan Liston (31:09) No, no, I just, I was going to say more words and realized I didn't have anything useful to say. So it's like nothing that would go, that would be additive to what's already been said. It would just be more superfluous information just being thrown out there. So, yeah, this is great. Brynne Erickson (31:22) ⁓ okay. Okay. Alrighty. Okay. This was awesome. So thank you so much for hanging out with me and sharing it with us. Your follow-up from sharing your faith journey and what a positive response that was. And hopefully you're able to help some people out and maybe navigating their own relationships with people that they love as their child, trying to figure out what to believe and who they want to be and get through this life. Yeah. Ryan Liston (31:39) Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. 100%, 100%, but choose love. Brynne Erickson (31:58) I am a believer. Yes. Yeah. Ryan Liston (32:00) Lead with love, choose love. We do our best at those. And I think that's the parting that I can share with anybody here. Brynne Erickson (32:07) Okay, and I totally agree with that. All right, thanks, Ry, see ya. Ryan Liston (32:12) Thanks, Brynnie.