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Relationship Rescue in Isolation with Therapist, Jed Jurchenko · Authentic Living

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Welcome to authentic living with Roxanne, a place where we have as conversations about
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things that really matter in our lives.
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And now here's your host, Roxanne Derhodge.
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Everyone.
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It's Roxanne Durgesh from Authentic Living from Roxanne.
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Thanks for tuning in again this week.
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Today, I have a colleague, Jed Janko, and he's located out in Minnesota.
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And he has a fascinating background, He's a couple's therapist and an expert, and he's
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written, upwards of 20 books.
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I'll tell you a little bit about his background.
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So, Jed, thanks so much for coming on today to chat with us about, relationships.
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Roxanne, thank you for having me on the show.
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Yeah.
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As a therapist, I spent almost 10 years working with foster families primarily, but then also
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have my incredible family I'm not only my wife, Jenny, but our 6 kiddos, 4 biological kids.
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And then Jenny and I became unexpected foster parents about a year ago.
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6 kids.
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Wow.
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What are the age ranges, Jed?
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That's your kids for your kids.
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So two thirteen year olds all the way down to three year old and all girls.
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So I am severely outnumbered.
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And even our cat believe it or not is a girl.
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So
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So you've learned to accommodate to the, the expectations of what the females around you are
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needing.
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So they're probably a good, I would think they're a good insight to, females.
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And when you go out and you coach and you speak, that would give you kind of a lens of of
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some of the things that you can share with other males.
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Absolutely.
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Well, and I love it, and I wouldn't have this any other way.
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And so part of my fascination with relationships is 1, I just absolutely love the
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psychology side of things.
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But, 2, it's for myself too because just with a big family and so many kids and the hustle and
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bustle of life, I wanna make sure that I'm doing a good job putting my family first that
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my amazing wife, Jenny, and I are still making time to connect.
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And so a lot of it is me wrestling with stuff saying, how do I intentionally work this into
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my day?
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And then to be able to share that and pass that on with the to others.
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It's just something I love to do.
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So tell us, tell us what what made you want to become a couples therapist?
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Like, some people kind of, you know, do the traditional route.
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I did the traditional route and you know, went right into it when I was 21.
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Did what was your path?
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What made you interested in becoming, a couples therapist?
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Yeah.
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Roxanne, I never thought I would end up with a background in marriage and family therapy.
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So after high school, I got involved at a children's camp and started doing summer camp
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counseling and decided I wanted to become a children's pastor.
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Now I knew very little about relationships, grew up during a time when just within the
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Christian circles, this whole purity movement was huge.
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And there was this idea going around, especially in more conservative circles, that
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dating would lead to premarital sex, which would lead to, you know, pregnancy, which would
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just make your whole relationship crumble.
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Mhmm.
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And about that time, a book came out called I kissed dating goodbye.
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And, the whole premises of the book was if the edge of the cliff is here, you know, you don't
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wanna stand close to the edge where you're gonna fall off into dating, sex, getting
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married too early, having kids out of wedlock and just everything crumbling.
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We need to stand way, way back.
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And the idea was the further back you could stand, the better.
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Mhmm.
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And so this book says, Hey.
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Let's kiss dating.
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Goodbye.
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We're gonna do something called courting, which is only going out with somebody if we're ready
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to get married.
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And then the whole idea became, well, let's take that even further.
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Let's have your first kiss be on your wedding day.
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And the problem with that is I got so tied into this community that I couldn't date if I wanted
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to.
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Mhmm.
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I remember my junior, senior year of high school asking girls to go to our formal
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together, and I'm thinking, we'll just hang out.
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We'll sit by one another.
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And years later, these girls would tell me, Jed, I wanted to go with you and just hang out
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and sit next to you and talk to you.
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And then I got surrounded by other girls saying, no.
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We don't do that.
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And so the backlash was that by the time I did start dating, I was clueless.
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You know, I just didn't have those relationship building skills, those dating skills to know
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what I was looking for in a significant other.
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Didn't know warning signs that I shouldn't look for.
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Right.
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And so when I got married, I thought things were great.
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But it turned into just a complete disaster or train wreck pretty quick.
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Mhmm.
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And so that really caused me to go back to school.
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And say, what's going on with me?
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What am I missing?
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What am I getting wrong?
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Cause that was a seminary student.
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Mhmm.
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And so for me being raised in this evangelical Christian, how told.
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I thought, okay.
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I've got the answers.
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I know what I'm doing.
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Right.
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They're good.
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And all of a sudden, my whole world was flipped upside down.
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And so I went back to the same seminary that I studied at that happened to have 2 degrees, one
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in Bible, and second in psychology.
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Mhmm.
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And as I started studying psychology, I realized, wait a minute.
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I can integrate these key principles with my faith.
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But I also saw strategies and tools and ideas that I could use myself.
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Mhmm.
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And then There was kind of that frustration that clicked.
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This frustration of, oh my goodness, why is this not being taught everywhere?
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Why did I miss this?
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Why was I told to run from relationships and be scared?
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Mhmm.
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When everything says, yeah, we should run towards those.
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And so that's really my story of getting excited about psychology and the tools that I
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learn myself and pass on to others.
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But for me, this is, you know, something I'm excited about, passionate about a job, but it's
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also a hobby too.
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I love it.
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So tell me not having, you know, a divinity background.
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I'm a strictly, you know, psychology background.
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How did you kind of I'm gonna use the word Mary because it seems logical.
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Those two spaces, because sometimes I've dealt with some very traditional couples and it's
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very to the book, and that's just the way it is.
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And I have one partner that's evolving out of it that's saying, Okay.
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I I get that we are our faith comes first and those types of things, but we are out of, you
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know, the initial stages of our relation We are into the 5 to 15 year developmental stage of a
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relationship.
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And for people that are listening, I may not know that is initially, you know, we're on our
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best behavior.
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We do everything right.
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We we we listen.
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We attend.
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We do all that stuff.
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But 15 years into it, we're into a different stage where Oh, there's there's different
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things being asked of in the marriage, as a system, right, where you have to really work
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hard so the best behavior that came naturally because you're trying to impress, I'm gonna use
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the word, is kinda like, oh, did I, oh, did I not tell you I love you today?
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I I'm sure I said that to you last month, whatever.
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So it's more a developmental kind of stage that couples go through.
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So tell me your perspective of marrying the element of religion, and systems and marital
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therapy.
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And where where did your brain go to kind of, create that space that informs your practice
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maybe today?
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Yeah.
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Roxanne, I love that question.
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And it's one that gets me excited, because I remember that very first day of sitting in
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psychology class.
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And our Dean was up in the front of the class, and he was talking about the different
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counseling theories.
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I was learning about men like Albert Ellis and William Glasser and just some of their key
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principles.
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Mhmm.
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And they had come out of seminary not too long with this master's of divinity.
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So my mind was just packed with scriptures I had memorized.
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Bible verses and as he was going through these counseling theories, passage after passage of
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scripture came to mind.
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And I'm like, wow.
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This is really what the Bible teaches.
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So I'll give you an example.
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Albert Ellis.
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It's a father of rational motive behavioral therapy, r e b t, and it's all about changing
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our thoughts and our mindset.
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Mhmm.
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You'll use words like stinking thinking, and awfulizing and catastrophizing, but the Bible
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has a ton to say about our thoughts.
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All of a sudden, I realize, wait a minute.
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I don't have to try to marry 2 conflicting ideas when it comes of the tools and strategies
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that Albert Ellis uses, I can find those right in scripture.
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Now here was the challenge that I was facing is during migrate train wreck during this
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relationship disaster, I was going to pastors, ministry leaders, church leaders, people I
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really respected, and I still respect them to this day.
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I truly do believe they were doing the best with what they had, but kind of their go to
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answers were the spiritual disciplines, things like pray more, read the Bible more, attend
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church, and trust god for the results.
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Now I'll tell you, I'm a big believer in the spiritual disciplines, and those will grow your
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faith like nothing else.
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But they're also not a magic wand.
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And so I kind of fell in this magical thinking of, yeah, I'm just gonna do more of this.
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But none of them addressed the issues that needed to be addressed, so the problem grew.
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And so I did more and the problem grew I did more in the problem, Drew.
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And by now, you probably recognize that I'm talking about this definition of insanity,
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which is doing more and more of the same thing.
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And expecting different results.
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Well, if you're doing that or if you've ever done that, me too.
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I've been there.
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I've done that.
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That's not a lot of fun, and is not a good recipe for relationship success.
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Yeah.
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Because what I would think, Chad, is I'm just listening to you.
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I'm thinking of this couple that I've I've seen over the years.
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And, you know, very faith based, they, you know, had, you know, were spent time prayed a
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lot, did all those things, but what became into into play for them was, you know, and I don't
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know.
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You must know about to Parell, the the researcher that talks about safety safety and
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security in a relationship.
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This is the kind of the broad brushes that is an inverse function of, you know, desire.
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Right?
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So she talks a little bit about that, which if you think about it, you know, if you're gonna
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go skydive with somebody today, you're gonna have, like, that adrenaline rush, and you're
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gonna have that connection, but it's new.
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But Think of it 25 years down the road, you're like, okay.
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Well, who's got the who's got the parachute?
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You did you check that out?
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I hope you didn't do this again, and you take the same couple with this different ex with 25
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zeros later, and then be a different thing.
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So what I think of the practical is that what are the emotional needs of that couple based on
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the agent stage of that relationship and how is, yes, I'm not belief systems or belief
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systems.
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And I always say as couples therapist and family therapist, I'm a a marriage and family
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MFT trained couples therapist, it's like, okay.
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Understand the frame, but ultimately understand the needs of who is in front of you.
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And I would think that that concept that you're talking about, keep keep doing it doesn't
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address the practical concerns that might sit right in front of you.
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Absolutely.
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Absolutely.
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And I think from My faith background, my theology background, it was making that mental
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kind of pivot from seeing the Bible is a book that told me everything about everything.
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Mhmm.
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And then realizing, okay.
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Wait.
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This is things that I'm not gonna know about my relationship with god if this book was missing.
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Mhmm.
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But when I'm sick, I go see a doctor.
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And Mhmm.
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Most people of faith do.
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When your relationship is sick, it's the same principle to go see a relation ship expert.
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Mhmm.
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You know?
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And when your faith is suffering, your faith is sick, it's not working well.
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You know, that's not when you're gonna go see a medical doctor or a marriage and found.
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That's when you're gonna go see a pastor.
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And so for me, I was realizing that there's some different roles.
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And I need to reach out and use those versus looking for one's time wasn't size fits all.
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And that's something that really helped me.
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So to already accept people where their mindset is, right, whatever, and then you know that
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when we when we train, it's it's about you know, recognizing your beliefs, understanding
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the the world view of the person in front of you, the couples, and obviously with couples,
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we often say, and I've I'm sure you use this too, Jettas.
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There's You're seeing a couple, but it's technically about six people in the room.
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So how do you kinda quiet that white noise?
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And what we mean by that is there's the couple, and then there's their parents on both sides.
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And then they go, what?
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What are you what are you talking about?
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There's six people in there.
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Absolutely.
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Because when I ask you about a belief where where does that belief come from and how does
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that impact the other side, you know, your your partner's perception of that need and how did
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he or she see it and what was his exposure when he was growing up.
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And then they go, wow.
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That is fascinating.
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So hence, why it's important that couples realize that how intricate understanding each
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other's needs are because it's not a vote Jim needs this or Jay needs this.
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It's just so much more that's in late.
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And, so with you, when you kind of got the, you know, the different, I'm gonna say frame and
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and that space, which I think it's a it's a nice space because you're bringing a breath
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with, you know, of divinity, which is belief, you know, in a space that says, well, There's
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something bigger.
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And I hope that everybody believes there's something bigger based on whichever, you know,
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kind of, space you put it in.
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How did that how does that inform you today when you deal with couples?
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How do you kind of, you know, deal with the concerns with that that trajectory of both.
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Yeah.
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You know, that's such a great question.
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It really depends on the space that I'm operating in.
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You know, if I'm in a traditional therapy, setting, then it's really up to the couple how
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much they wanna bring faith into it.
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You know, my faith is there.
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I'm me.
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I'm an author of written 20 books.
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One book I wrote was specifically for kids, and I didn't intend to put my faith into it.
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But the one of my favorite negative reviews that I've ever gotten essentially said, like,
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Jed, you write, like, a middle class Christian white dude.
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And I'm like, well, maybe you saw my picture on the back or my author bio or something, but
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that's me, and I'm not gonna change that.
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And so there's gonna be that aspect that's there and that faith aspect that just comes
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out.
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This is me being me.
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And true and authentic to who I am.
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Right.
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Right.
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But these principles are gonna work regardless.
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You know, I see them as timeless foundational principles.
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You know, one example of that would be the connection principal.
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People are designed to connect.
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We need relationships.
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You know, something that I've been learning lately is that our brain, it lights up whenever
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that relationship is broken, especially the ones who are closest loved ones, just like it
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does when we feel physical pain.
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But would you agree with the statement that I think, we are we're born into connection were
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carried by our mother, our father is there, right, in, you know, to welcome us into the
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world, hopefully, not ideally with everybody.
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We know that.
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And, you know, I often say that, you know, when people get into relationships, we're all
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looking for that bond.
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But there's this element that I really shouldn't really need my partner the way I do.
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I don't know if you hear that a lot.
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You know, I I want my partner, but I don't wanna seem like I'm too dependent on my
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partner.
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Is that something that you see couples struggling with?
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Yeah.
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And that's a tricky thing to navigate because we don't wanna be too dependent.
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Right.
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And it's tough.
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It would be tough to have somebody who's clingy and needs you the time and who has no sense of
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independence.
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But the other part is we're hardwired for relationships.
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And when that goes away, you know, it really is like losing an essential need, air, water,
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shelter.
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Our brain lights up.
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It goes into panic mode.
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That's simply the way were designed.
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And oftentimes even that fight flight or flea mechanism kicks in Mhmm.
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Which is why couples do sometimes crazy things when they feel disconnected.
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Because they're in that fight fight or freeze mode.
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It is, oh my goodness.
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Feeling disconnected hurts so much.
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That if the way that I'm gonna reconnect with you is to yell at you, scream at you, do
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something to get your attention, I'm gonna do it because I'm in pain.
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And people that I talk to sometimes say that that mental anguish hurts even more than
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physical pain.
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They prefer physical pain over that mental anguish of being disconnected.
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Do you see that same thing?
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Absolutely.
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And I think, you know, I call it I say to my couples, it's like you're having an adult
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tantrum.
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Right?
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And they go, what?
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Think about when you're when you're upset with your partner, how do you draw him or her
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towards you?
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They go, well, I don't know that I do, but what do you do to get their attention?
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Well, I'll distance or I won't return a phone call or, you know, if I was expecting a special
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night and it was nothing, I, you know, I might plan something else and spend more time with
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the kids or So it it's interesting because at the end of the day, they're identifying a need,
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but they're not the activity or the action gets them further away.
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Potentially from what they want.
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And I think that's the I think that's the magic potion that once you get couples start to
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recognize you know, when you don't call home, after, you know, I've worried for the last
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month because there's been a lot of snow you know, I get really, really scared.
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And when I get really scared, it takes me back to a time when there was so much uncertainty,
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and I couldn't sleep or those types of things.
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When I think it's that skill, Jed, that teaching couples to realize if I can let my
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partner know where where their action takes me, and it's about me.
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It's not about them.
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They are triggering me, but I'm helping them see my internal space, then they go, wow.
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Being up picking up the phone, did that to you?
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Oh, I I never knew that.
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And I love what you just did, you know, because I think that's key right there.
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And when you said, hey.
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I didn't hear from you, and I'm scared.
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I wanted to know you're okay.
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You know, from a guy's perspective, I felt like that would melt most guys hearts.
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Mhmm.
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Most men that I know want to be the hero.
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They want to be good husbands.
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They wanna feel like their wife wants them and needs them.
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Mhmm.
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And typically, we respond pretty well to things like I'm scared.
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You know, I was worried about you.
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No.
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Not all guys.
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No.
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Not all guys.
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But, certainly, it's a lot better than, hey.
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Why weren't you home?
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Because for a guy that That immediately takes us to the point of, oh, no.
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She's trying to control me, or she's trying to force me to be here versus, oh my goodness.
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She's lying for me and reaching for me and wants me around, which is more likely to melt
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his heart than where were you?
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Why didn't I see you?
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So so much of it is in that language.
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Absolutely.
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Because to you know, I often say that sometimes men will interpret, a request based on its
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delivery as a demand versus a request.
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And likes to your point, you just said it.
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And then the guy starts to feel, oh, here I go.
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I'm gonna be controlled.
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And and then he puts up his back And then he goes, I'm not gonna be controlled.
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You're not gonna tell me what to do, and then it becomes a vicious kind of circle.
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So I think that that concept, you know, of really teaching and and I would love to hear
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teaching people to get safe enough with each other to share their vulnerabilities allows
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them to and that takes time.
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And it's it's not pretty sometimes during sessions, but what it actually does is shows
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people that, you know, prior to meeting you as your my partner, I had a lot of things that
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happened to me that were less than ideal.
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And, you know, you married me because you loved me.
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So it's almost like I need to help you understand how certain things affect me so that
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you have the option to decide how you're going to, deal with me differently because a lot of
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people have these needs that they verbalize, but then they don't let the partner know why
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they're having that need.
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I love that.
22:18
Roxanne, can I talk about how I'm learning how to flesh this out in real life?
22:22
Sure.
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I would love I I would love that.
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And, also, I know we talked a little bit.
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I would love to go back to you and your wife on how you met and some of the things that you
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started to implement when you started to learn these things that you did.
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Absolutely.
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Absolutely.
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And I think that's gonna tie into this just a little bit.
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Because one of the things that I'm learning is that connection is so important.
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And that misinterpretation happens so easily.
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And then we can fall into that cycle that you described where I'm hurt and I wanna be chased
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or connected with.
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I want Jenny to come say, hey.
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I noticed.
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I see something's wrong, so I back off.
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And she does the same thing.
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She says, hey.
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I want you to have to notice that some so she's backed off and pretty soon we're in this self
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sabotaging mode where both of us are moving further and further away.
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Waiting for the other one to re engage.
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Mhmm.
23:14
And so one of the things that's worked really well in our relationship is to build a pattern
23:21
of daily, tiny connection habits.
23:23
Mhmm.
23:24
And I'll tell you how this work.
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This is something that I stumbled on to by accident.
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I stumbled onto it with my writing.
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So I wanted to write a book and kept failing for about 3 years.
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And I heard this simple phrase, writer's write, Next morning, I woke up, brewed a pot of
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coffee, poured it, sat down at the kitchen table, began to write my book.
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Did that day after day after day.
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With every morning, alarm goes off 5 AM through a pot of coffee, sit down at the kitchen table,
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write my book.
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And fast forward 6 years.
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I'm just getting ready to publish my 26 book.
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Oh.
24:03
And then I picked up some of these habit books.
24:06
Which are all the rage.
24:07
Mhmm.
24:08
And that say the best way to build a new habit is to attach it to a old habit.
24:13
Mhmm.
24:13
And all of a sudden, I realized, oh, That's why this worked.
24:16
I stumbled on this by accident, but my routine was through the coffee.
24:22
And I attached that new habit of now I'm gonna sit down and write my book to the morning
24:28
coffee.
24:29
And so now I've got my coffee right here.
24:31
Whenever that coffee pot goes, my brain's going And it's and it's on and in on.
24:37
You smell the coffee?
24:38
You're writing.
24:39
That's Oh, yeah.
24:40
I'm writing up here.
24:43
Now about 3 years into this, Jenny said, Jen, I love that you write, but something that bothers
24:49
me is Once you get in your zone, you're gone.
24:53
I realize, okay.
24:54
This is starting to, you know, get in the way of our relationship.
24:58
Becoming a brick wall or a barrier between us.
25:01
Mhmm.
25:01
So I created this new habit.
25:03
And now first time I see Jenny in the morning, I closed down my laptop.
25:08
She's way more important in my writing.
25:11
I realized, okay, I've got this new trigger.
25:13
First time I see her, writing goes down, we're gonna go hang out for a couple minutes.
25:19
Now some warning she's in a rush.
25:21
She doesn't have time to hang out, and it is two seconds of connecting, and she's off.
25:27
And she needs to be, but she's got a lot to do.
25:30
Other times, it's 5 minutes 10 minutes.
25:32
Other day, it's half an hour, but the whole point is it's that nonverbal communication of
25:39
your way more important than whatever writing project that I'm working on.
25:43
Now that's really become a habit that's stuck with us in a lot of areas.
25:48
Now when we come back from work, it's that 10 seconds to reconnect Mhmm.
25:54
When she comes back from the grocery store, it's that 10, 20 seconds to reconnect.
26:00
But whenever One of us is away.
26:03
There's always that reconnection moment when we come back together.
26:07
Mhmm.
26:07
And it just feels weird if that doesn't happen.
26:11
I law I love that you break it down into such, small tidbits.
26:15
And I often, you know, when couples come and, you know, oftentimes, let's let's, let's kinda
26:24
put it on the table there.
26:27
It's often because there's a lack of intimacy.
26:30
Right?
26:30
So, you know, they're getting to the point where they're like, well, you were not being
26:34
intimate.
26:35
We gotta get some help.
26:36
Right?
26:37
And, you know, one person often want it's generally the man, and I'm not being
26:41
stereotypical, so I hope you don't think I am.
26:45
Where it's like, well, if we would just get intimate, then we would be better.
26:48
And the wife says, you know, if we would just, like, do these things to make me feel
26:51
connected, we would be intimate.
26:53
So it's kinda like who's gonna win.
26:54
And, of course, the therapist is supposed to take the perspective of, alright, I'll just
26:58
tell Jeff what to do, and, you know, it'll be fine.
27:01
And then I I I backed them off from the outcome to have them recognize, you know, that when was
27:07
the last time you two just connected.
27:10
And they go, what?
27:11
What do you mean?
27:12
Well, we have kids and we have jobs and we have chores and and I I go, yeah, yeah, yeah, I know
27:17
that, but when was the last time?
27:20
And then they say, well, what do you mean?
27:22
And I go, okay.
27:22
Well, just kinda, you know, did something or spent some time or had a conversation where you
27:28
walk to when you think, oh, I like that guy.
27:30
I like that girl.
27:32
And then they go, well, I can't remember when.
27:34
And they go, that because oftentimes they wanna go right into the problem, and they don't wanna
27:40
back up and look.
27:40
I I I I I my description is let's look at aerial shot of what's really going on.
27:46
We'll get there.
27:47
We'll get there in the end, but we need to back off.
27:49
And then they kinda go, oh, okay.
27:52
But, you know, it's it's oftentimes where people think you're gonna I'm just gonna have
27:55
we're just gonna have sex and everything's gonna be better, but that those elements of
28:01
attachment, which we know all about attachment theory, which is I feel so connected.
28:07
I feel like I am so valuable in that person's eyes that all that other stuff falls into
28:13
place, but I think a lot of couples get away from the small incremental things.
28:18
That they should be doing?
28:20
Yeah.
28:21
So that whole idea that intimacy doesn't begin in the bedroom.
28:25
Absolutely, but guess what?
28:26
They wanna take you there.
28:27
I'm like, okay.
28:28
Hold up.
28:29
Hold up.
28:29
They go, no.
28:30
No.
28:30
No.
28:30
You have to hear what he did.
28:31
And then she and then you're like, oh, okay.
28:33
I said, I will say to them, long would you like me to listen to this?
28:37
Because I is this what you do at home?
28:39
Yeah.
28:39
If that's what happens.
28:40
Okay.
28:40
Well, no problem.
28:40
I'm not gonna buy into what you're trying to sell me right now, and they look at me and go,
28:44
oh, I go, I want to listen, but remember, I'm listening and pretend I'm painting a picture in
28:50
my mind, and I'm gonna try to guide you to to to reconnect and then then they start to kind
28:56
of slow down versus get into the same, stance.
29:00
So you're seeing the same kinds of things in your Yeah.
29:04
You know, and there's a tension there.
29:07
I love this idea of a reset button.
29:10
I would say those tiny connection moments throughout the day are almost like a reset
29:14
button.
29:14
And I grew up in the 19 eighties with the original Nintendo Entertainment Systems.
29:21
Awesome.
29:21
So Super Mario's up.
29:23
And what I love about those games is, you're getting a bad game.
29:26
You just reach over.
29:26
You hit that reset button and you start again.
29:29
Yeah.
29:30
Yeah.
29:30
And so for us, those many connection points throughout the day are just that reset button.
29:35
We're connected.
29:37
And here's what I've learned is Jenny and I can have something that we don't agree on, and
29:42
maybe it's an ongoing issue.
29:45
And as you know, all the research says, yeah, couples are gonna get stuck with issues.
29:50
Like, if you've got an ongoing can't solve it problem in your relationship.
29:55
Huge congratulations.
29:57
You are normal like the rest of us.
30:00
And researcher got John Gottman would say those are just rooted in our personalities, our
30:05
upbringing, our fundamental differences, and we can argue about those day night, but chances
30:11
are your loved ones not gonna change.
30:14
Big question is is are you gonna let that break the connection?
30:18
Are you gonna say, hey.
30:19
We disagree about this over here?
30:21
But reset, we're coming together right now to connect because we love each other.
30:27
We care about each other.
30:28
We enjoy spending time together.
30:30
And that was something that Jennie and I had to learn is you know, we can still have fun going
30:35
on a walk together, playing a game together, chatting about our day, even if we're not 100%
30:43
on this issue over here yet.
30:44
We're gonna take a break from that problem, reset, come together as a couple, and then move
30:51
on.
30:51
And maybe that problem comes up again, and we've gotta talk about it.
30:54
But, again, we're going back to that reset button.
30:59
So let's let's pivot a bit and talk about, 2 things.
31:05
I'd like to, you know, we know that the time that we're in that a lot of people at our home,
31:09
and we're we're at home for the in, you know, unforeseeable future.
31:13
And These touch points are important, Jed.
31:17
I agree with you completely as you as you continually take that pulse of where we need to
31:21
go.
31:22
But sometimes and I don't know if you there's unresolved issues.
31:27
Right?
31:28
You know, that flare up.
31:30
Right?
31:31
So I'm gonna assume people at home that haven't learned some of the things we're talking about.
31:37
You know, they're like little bombs going off.
31:40
Right?
31:40
They're trying to manage all the stressors of the uncertainty that we're in.
31:44
You have all your kids at home, and then you, you know, if both partners are working from
31:48
home still, It's a lot of tension under one roof.
31:52
So let's talk a little bit about, first of all, what do you do when there's unresolved bigger
31:59
issues And how do you kinda work into that to to getting to a point where How do you work
32:07
with the unresolved with kinda the touch points to make change?
32:12
Such a big question because there are unresolved big issues.
32:17
Serious issues that need to be addressed.
32:20
And what really I would say outside help is almost needed you know, ongoing affairs.
32:31
Obviously, any type of violence in the relationship Now those are big issues where
32:37
it's gonna be tough to solve those alone.
32:41
And there's also smaller issues or it really depends on what you wanna do with those issues
32:48
and, how long you wanna make them an issue?
32:50
I'm a huge believer in choice theory.
32:53
Which really comes down to you and I always have a choice.
32:58
And one of my favorite stories that I heard was about a pastor.
33:01
Young pastor, newly married, super in love with his wife.
33:06
The relationship was going great.
33:08
And then couple days after the honeymoon, he got up, woke up groggily headed over to the
33:13
bathroom.
33:14
Bam, banged his shin against the opened dresser drawer that his new wife left open.
33:19
How old in pain?
33:20
Does those shindroses hurt?
33:22
You know, she promised never gonna do it again.
33:26
And that lasted about a week being dishing again, again, how old and pain this time, lit
33:32
into his wife a little bit, And she, again, never gonna do it again.
33:36
The old habits die hard couple weeks later.
33:38
Same thing.
33:40
And so pretty soon, like, the dresser drawers were ruining their relationship.
33:45
I said the last time I banged my shin, I got so mad.
33:49
I took that dresser drawer.
33:50
I slammed it shut.
33:52
And then I thought to myself 2 things.
33:54
1, I love my wife.
33:56
I did a stupid to let a dresser door ruin our relationship.
34:01
And 2, I did a slammed that door shut, and I solved my own problem.
34:06
And he said from now on, dresser Drazor, my responsibility, not hers.
34:11
I love my wife first thing in the morning.
34:13
I'm gonna look and see if a draw is open.
34:15
If it is, I must say I love my wife and close it.
34:18
I said, those doors were never an issue.
34:21
So it's really up to us.
34:24
Perspective that our move the dresser drawer or, you know, lots of different ways to kinda
34:29
slice it and dice it to figure out how big is this issue.
34:34
You know, you're so right when you say that.
34:35
That's a that's awesome, symbolism to it, but it's it's so true because small things become
34:41
big things if you let them, you know, kinda gain in in in momentum.
34:48
Yeah.
34:48
Can I share my own personal dresser drawer story with you?
34:51
Sure.
34:52
Sure.
34:52
So for me, it was working with a lot of families and even doing some domestic violence
34:57
groups where I'm teaching deep breathing.
35:00
You know, just a calmer body down, slower body down.
35:04
Mhmm.
35:04
And so Jenny would come to me and tell me bad news, and I would Right?
35:10
Because I'm sitting here.
35:11
I'm using the tools that I'm teaching people.
35:15
But Jenny's mind went to Judd Sign at me.
35:19
I'm letting him down.
35:21
And so I started with this.
35:23
Oh, no, honey.
35:23
It's not about you.
35:24
I just I do this during the day, but the last time I did it, I just saw her face drop.
35:31
I realized it doesn't how many times I tell her this isn't about.
35:34
She she's taking it personally, and I can't control that.
35:38
I can't change that.
35:40
But I can knock off my size.
35:42
Mhmm.
35:43
And so for me, I'll still occasionally do it.
35:46
And if I see her face drop, it is.
35:48
Honey, I'm so sorry.
35:48
I'm working on that.
35:50
Mhmm.
35:50
But that's something that I can control.
35:52
So I really like this idea of you know, in business.
35:56
I'll call it controlling the controllables.
35:58
I've heard here in Minnesota, the, high performance coach.
36:03
From the Minnesota Vikings uses the word dominate the controllables.
36:08
And then, you know, for me, I love this idea of We always have a choice, but it's that same
36:13
principle of honing in on what we can control.
36:18
And then letting the other stuff go.
36:20
And for a lot of relationships, that key principle can make a huge difference.
36:25
So that concept and the time then, let's pivot into the time.
36:28
And we really feel how many of us feel like we don't have much control.
36:33
We have over the global things that are happening, we don't have any control, but we
36:38
have control over certain things.
36:39
So let's talk to couples that are home that are feeling out of control potentially.
36:47
Let's let's talk to them about the dresser drawer kind of concept.
36:51
About what kind of things they can control and what kind of things they can start to implement
36:56
maybe just to be able to, make the best of this time we're not negating that there may be
37:03
bigger issues, but, you know, let's let's kinda start with the trajectory of the smaller issues
37:08
that maybe are gonna be cumulative because of the time.
37:11
So what kind of things would you kind of see the couples of out there that are saying, oh my
37:15
goodness.
37:17
You know, this is a tough time.
37:19
Kind of things with your 20 books and all the things that you've written about, what are some
37:23
basic things that you would tell them to reflect on, or some things that they can
37:27
actually start doing?
37:29
Yeah.
37:29
Absolutely.
37:30
So about a month ago, a friend challenged me to write down just some of the most powerful
37:34
relationship statements.
37:35
I I know.
37:37
I wrote down 15 of them, and one of my favorites says you can't make your spouse
37:41
connect, but you can courageously reach out.
37:45
And reaching as a win regardless of how your loved one responds.
37:51
And so
37:51
I think for us, it's that pivot in thinking from when I reached out, my pow my spouse has
37:59
to accept that.
38:00
To if I reach, that's a win.
38:04
If I go to connect with Jenny and she's just not there yet, I've gotta see that as a yes.
38:10
I did my job.
38:11
I reached out.
38:13
Now I know Jenny well enough to know that if she's not ready, typically, she's gonna walk
38:18
away and feel bad about 2 minutes later and come back and be ready to connect.
38:24
And the same thing with me.
38:26
There's times where I've turned down her reaching for me, which I don't wanna do.
38:32
I wanna be the the husband who always reaches back, but I blow it to
38:36
you.
38:37
Yes.
38:38
But typically within 2 to 3 minutes, I'm like, oh, man.
38:41
Somebody just reached out.
38:42
And I pushed that away.
38:43
What am I thinking?
38:46
And so one thing that I've noticed is that with those regular connection points when those
38:52
don't happen and when you turn your loved one away, it just feels weird.
38:57
Pretty soon that guilt comes over and it's like, what are you doing?
39:02
And so I would say just reframing.
39:05
Now for couples who aren't used to reaching and reaching back, it might be a couple days of
39:11
reaching out.
39:12
I think it's just doing that mental pivot of yes, I'm gonna reach and I did it, and that's a
39:18
win.
39:20
I'm gonna do it again and again and again.
39:24
Is eventually that reconnection is gonna happen.
39:28
That's how our brains are wired.
39:31
Because it's what you're asking for.
39:33
You may not be doing it.
39:34
Maybe people that don't have the skills that say that you and Jenny do people you're wanting
39:39
that we're all wanting that connection with our partner.
39:42
You're just maybe not knowing the most effective way to elicit the response you're
39:46
looking for.
39:47
I'd like you to hug me.
39:48
Or, you know, but to say, I'd like a hug.
39:51
I haven't been hugged today.
39:53
I really miss when you hug me.
39:54
No.
39:54
I love that.
39:55
You know, I'm it I mean, I've it makes me feel so special when you hug me, versus well, I
40:01
haven't been hugged today is different from I love it when you hug me.
40:04
I feel so special.
40:05
So again, delivery of, some of the what you wants are and to try to go I often say that as
40:13
as Mabbles ideally, we wanna lean together.
40:16
Right?
40:16
But when we get into that stance, we, you know, one one person leans away, and generally one
40:22
other person brings them back.
40:24
But if you're both kind of leaning away, you know, it's it's the other person's
40:28
responsibility that recognizes Hey, she's doing again, and she's leaning away, or he's leaning
40:35
away.
40:35
Whoever recognizes it, it's their, I say it's your duty and your relationship to call it.
40:42
Love that.
40:42
Well, and there's playful ways to do that.
40:45
Like, I love it when you're hugging me and a smile.
40:48
I'm gonna walk away.
40:49
Because then your loved one has to figure out, okay.
40:52
What on earth do I do with this?
40:54
Right.
40:55
Right.
40:55
It almost throws everything off a little bit.
40:58
And do they come track you down and hug you?
41:01
Maybe.
41:01
Yeah.
41:03
But I can almost guarantee they're thinking throughout the day of what do I do with that?
41:08
And then you walk by again and, yeah, I really love it when you hold my hand.
41:12
Mhmm.
41:13
Mhmm.
41:13
And maybe at some point, they get so frustrated that they yell out.
41:17
Why aren't you hugging me?
41:19
Why aren't you you know?
41:21
Yeah.
41:22
Yeah.
41:22
And then it's just like, oh, was just waiting for you to ask back to, you know, or something
41:26
playful where it almost turns into a a game and a joke.
41:30
And if you can get those going, humor can be powerful.
41:34
Absolutely.
41:35
So let's let's talk to the couples at home.
41:40
That how are they gonna get through this time?
41:43
Even if it's a good relationship, it's a it's we're stuck and I I say the wood's stuck.
41:48
I could think of the weave depends on the way you look at it.
41:51
You're in the home.
41:51
You're running try to run lives and jobs in a home, potentially.
41:55
So what kind of things would you suggest for people just to to look at this as as an
42:01
opportunity but also to build skill, even if it's a small skill to get through this time,
42:08
because this these'll be things that you can carry forward with you
42:12
Yeah.
42:12
If with time you need help, you can obviously get the help.
42:14
But what what kind of things would you suggest?
42:19
Well, I love that word opportunity and skills and, hopefully, you can still hear me.
42:24
I just saw something pop up that says my internet connection is unstable because I'm
42:28
right with all of these parents.
42:29
I've got 6 kiddos up at home, all on the internet, all through the school.
42:34
Now you can sigh, and I won't say anything about it.
42:39
But this is this is real life.
42:41
You know?
42:41
Absolutely.
42:42
Anything like Jenny.
42:43
She's up there working.
42:45
Yeah.
42:45
Of course.
42:46
Of course.
42:46
So you're you're the best person to give this advice right now, Jed.
42:51
Yeah.
42:52
And so it really is, I would say, extending that extra grace This here's something that I
42:59
teach every year in psychology.
43:01
It's called the diethesist stress model of mental illness.
43:04
And, basically, it says this.
43:06
It says as our stress level goes up, we're gonna become more susceptible to signs and
43:12
symptoms of mental illness.
43:14
Some of us have great strong genes, and it takes a lot of stress before that pops up.
43:20
Yep.
43:20
Some of us, it just takes a little bit of stress.
43:23
But I think it's just being aware that, man, everybody is on edge.
43:28
This is new stress for all of us.
43:31
In fact, our cat we look in.
43:34
We see our cats dressed and
43:36
Oh, no.
43:36
Can't believe that.
43:37
I'm sharing this on a podcast, but our cats peeing on the furniture.
43:41
And I'm like, you never do this.
43:43
Yeah.
43:43
And so I looked up online and it says, oh, well, cats will do this when they're stressed.
43:47
Yes.
43:48
I think just everybody is feeling this, hey.
43:51
Things are different.
43:54
Mhmm.
43:54
They're not how they should be.
43:57
And so keeping that mindset, that frame up, and we're gonna get snappy with each other.
44:04
That's just gonna happen.
44:07
And when Jenny snaps up, it's not necessarily me.
44:11
And I get snappy.
44:12
I'd like to think that I don't, but I do.
44:16
We're closer together.
44:17
We're on closer Roxanne.
44:19
And so it's just getting in that spot.
44:21
I'm so sorry.
44:22
Yeah.
44:23
You know, it's not about to end moving on quickly.
44:25
And if both of you can get in that mindset of, of course, we're gonna get more frustrated with
44:30
each other.
44:30
That's normal.
44:32
We're just gonna get over it quicker too because we need to reconnect quicker.
44:37
You know, Our biggest coping skill, our biggest stress relieving mechanism, I truly believe our
44:43
relationships.
44:44
Mhmm.
44:45
And right now, We really can't go out to other relationships.
44:49
So we need each other more than ever.
44:52
So finding ways to stay connected.
44:53
Would you agree with that?
44:55
Absolutely.
44:55
And I think I I think this is what I would say to couples right now.
44:59
Sit down and talk about it.
45:01
And have a realistic conversation about what it's gonna look like and think about how you're
45:07
gonna have those touch points and how and then when you really just need the time, maybe have
45:13
that keyword to say it's my time.
45:15
You take the kids or, you know, I'm gonna go lock myself in the, you know, the in the study,
45:21
and I'm gonna take an hour.
45:23
Can you help out?
45:24
And I'm gonna do the same for you.
45:26
So I think having an overall talk about the realities and say, look, we're gonna do the
45:31
best we can.
45:32
And sometimes we're not gonna come up very good with it.
45:36
But let's just agree that we're both on the same team, you know, for our relationship and
45:41
for our family because I think the more that you do the we right now, that's gonna help
45:46
people through this, and they're gonna learn a lot about, like you said, their mental
45:50
well-being, stressors, lot more about your kids than me because you wouldn't have been talking
45:55
and being in the space with your kids as much, all those things.
45:58
What are their fears?
45:59
What are your fears?
46:01
What's your partner's fears?
46:02
And all those things, you know, is is a bonding element, I think, having that kind of
46:06
conversation.
46:08
Because reality is we all there's a pervasive element, that exists out there, but we have
46:14
control over what we can do in our homes.
46:17
So it's not deciding beforehand, and that's powerful.
46:21
That conscious decision making to say your importance, you know, I love you.
46:27
And and then, of course, the benefit, as you know, as a as a couples therapist and myself as
46:31
a family therapist that your kids are gonna take the lead from you.
46:36
Absolutely.
46:37
The stronger you are and even if they know you're having tough times, they're they're
46:41
they're looking for that guidance and they're looking for even more of that safety, I would
46:45
think, at this point too.
46:47
I love what you just said.
46:48
What a great opportunity to teach our kids about relationships?
46:52
Yeah.
46:53
And that is all.
46:53
Grew up missing.
46:54
Yeah.
46:55
Like, you're not you're it's not gonna be all rosy, and it's not all we're always not gonna
46:59
say the right things or do the right things, but we have the capacity to repair.
47:03
And, you know, look at maybe this opportunity, which unfortunately will there will be lots of
47:08
opportunity for it to be done less than perfect at times but that you could show your children
47:13
or model for them that in fact, yeah, mom and dad have differences.
47:17
And, yeah, sometimes we may not like each other in that moment.
47:19
But we can show that we can we can say, I'm sorry, or we can do a kind act, or we can make
47:24
the favorite cup of tea, or that, give them that space so that we see kindness that it in
47:29
is involved in repair, which is really what long term marriages are about.
47:34
Well, you hit the nail on the head.
47:35
That's what I wanna pass on to my girls is.
47:38
Hey, mom and I, we can disagree.
47:40
We can get mad and frustrated, but then 20 minutes later, or worst case scenario end of
47:47
the day, we're coming back to reconnect.
47:49
And what a great thing to model for our kids, just what a healthy relationship looks like.
47:55
Right.
47:56
Versus kinda leaning away from each other.
47:58
Right?
47:58
Yeah.
47:58
I mean, you may initially lead a what lean away.
48:02
And the the, you know, once they realize that there's the coming back, that's where they I
48:06
think the biggest lesson is I.
48:08
I'm so sorry or I'm sorry.
48:10
I didn't I slided you there, or I didn't saved the right way or whatever.
48:14
I didn't mean to, forgive me what can I do instead the next time?
48:19
And I think the more that As parents, we model this, you know, to our children or to our
48:25
partners, even if our partner doesn't have the skill eventually after a while, they go, oh,
48:30
okay.
48:31
That's that made me feel better.
48:33
So maybe I can try it, and then with practice come, you know, the skill gets a little bit a
48:38
little bit easier.
48:41
So tell us about your books and
48:43
metaphors.
48:44
Oh, absolutely.
48:45
I can tell.
48:46
I love that, draw you know, and, metaphor that you use.
48:51
And I think I would remember that now for so long because it it really that picture in your
48:56
mind really kind of takes you back to the to the the the lesson in that story.
49:02
Awesome.
49:03
Awesome.
49:03
Can I do one more and then
49:05
Sure?
49:05
Sure.
49:05
Absolutely.
49:06
I'll keep it short.
49:07
Oh, no.
49:07
We have
49:08
we have time.
49:09
You you just tell the story because I want it in its full entirety.
49:13
Love it.
49:13
Well, What you just described, I use a metaphor connect like Velcro because Velcro connects,
49:20
disconnects, and it's magic because it's always there to reconnect again.
49:23
And, of course, when I was in 3rd grade and wore those Velcro shoes and just sat there for
49:28
hours connecting and disconnecting the Velcro, probably much to the dismay of my teacher, you
49:35
know, that wears out and it stretches out.
49:38
And so here's the magic of Oprah.
49:40
One end has hundreds of tiny loops other end has hundreds of tiny hooks.
49:45
And over time, those stretch out.
49:48
So it's almost like they reach for each other.
49:51
And, man, a good healthy relationship is just like Warren Velcro.
49:55
You connect, you disconnect, and you're right there reaching for each other again.
49:59
I love it.
50:00
That's amazing.
50:01
I'm gonna I'm gonna use that, but I will I will, make sure that I tell every way you where
50:06
I got it from, Jed, because that I love that because I think that gives that gives hope
50:13
amidst the stats that we see with relationships.
50:17
Absolutely.
50:19
So Roxanne, people wanna find me.
50:21
I am atcoffeeshopconversations.com.
50:25
Love psychology, love diving, and the theology, but really trying to do it all in just a coffee
50:30
shop casual conversation.
50:32
And so coffee shop conversations.com.
50:35
It's got a link to my Amazon page, all my books, my emails up there.
50:40
If anybody wants to further connect, and that's the best way to get a hold of me.
50:44
Well, this has been an awesome conversation.
50:46
I think you and I could probably talk a lot about this with with And I I I think, you know,
50:51
as couples therapist, it's really about, you know, we we we can look at systems.
50:57
And I think especially in this space that we're in is is to really look at how people can
51:02
thrive through uncertainty and connect.
51:05
Right?
51:05
So whether it's two people or, in your case, a people, Jed, which, you know, that you you it
51:11
shows you that you really can look at what my role in what in getting what I need, but also
51:17
to try to try to start to flip it back and say, I know what I'm thinking and feeling.
51:22
But really, the question becomes, do I know who's whoever's sitting across from me, how are
51:28
they thinking and feeling?
51:29
And, like, I I always call it as I say to people, what is that person sitting across from
51:34
you?
51:34
What is their internal landscape?
51:36
And if you can't tell me what that person's landscape is, then I say to them, I I I tasked
51:42
them to say, go find out a bit more.
51:44
And that's, you know, the the thing that I'm learning from that you've reinforced the touch
51:48
points, you know, the the little things that you, you know, the more that you have those
51:52
touch points, it's like Gottman talks about Gottman is one of the most famous researchers
51:57
around relationship any is it a 5 to 1, connection, you know, do 5 things to connect?
52:05
You know, connect, connect, connect, connect, and then ask.
52:08
Because if you ask without connecting, the odds are more than like your request will not be
52:13
received in a way that you want to come back at you.
52:16
And he, you know, so what I would say is, through this time for everyone, just recognize
52:22
We'll all get through this.
52:23
We'll be fine.
52:24
We're gonna learn a lot of things, and we're gonna we're we're gonna thrive through this at
52:28
some point.
52:29
But you will have the capacity to do that today.
52:32
So to enjoy and relish your relationships, Judd, it was I feel like I virtually met your
52:38
family even though I did So take care of your family, through this time, and I'm sure her
52:42
past will cross again.
52:44
So this is Roxanne Derhodge.
52:45
If you're needing anything related to mental health and well-being, I also have a course on
52:50
relationships.
52:50
If you're wanting to learn more about how to enhance your relationships, you just go to
52:54
roxanderhodge.com, and there's a link there.
52:57
Thanks for tuning in to authentic living with Roxanne, creating the space for positive,
53:03
healthy change.
53:04
Roxanne is a keynote speaker psychotherapist, and coach to work with Roxanne, visit
53:10
rocksandurhaj.com/blue print.
53:14
We'll see you next time on authentic living with Roxanne.