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Rerelease: Toxic Power w/ Kate Petersen & Stephanie Rose · Echoes & Edges

0:08
Speaker 1: Hi, welcome back to Echoes and Edges, the Broken and
0:11
Speaker 1: Beautiful podcast. The Broken and Beautiful is a collective of
0:15
Speaker 1: healers on the hunt for beauty, meaning, and transformation. I'm Patria,
0:20
Speaker 1: your host for Echoes and Edges and the owner of
0:23
Speaker 1: the Broken and Beautiful, and I'm so glad you're here. Well,
0:30
Speaker 1: today we are back with Kate and Stephanie for part
0:34
Speaker 1: two of a three-part series on spiritual harm. And if
0:39
Speaker 1: you have not listened to the last episode, part one,
0:42
Speaker 1: please go back and listen to that episode before you
0:45
Speaker 1: dive into this episode. In that, Stephanie and Kate and
0:49
Speaker 1: I talk about, we start in the shallower waters of
0:54
Speaker 1: spiritual heartache and difficulty and pain. And then we move
1:00
Speaker 1: toward harm, toxicity, and abuse. And so today we're just
1:06
Speaker 1: going to continue following that thread and we're actually going
1:10
Speaker 1: to do a deeper dive. So please be aware that
1:14
Speaker 1: this is probably not a conversation for kids to be hearing,
1:18
Speaker 1: at least not without your presence so you can talk
1:21
Speaker 1: through some things. anything really could come up in this conversation, including, um,
1:26
Speaker 1: ways that women particularly get harmed in toxic religious systems.
1:31
Speaker 1: And that can include things around our bodies, all kinds
1:34
Speaker 1: of things around our bodies, including sex or coerced coercive sex.
1:39
Speaker 1: So please be aware that that could come up today,
1:42
Speaker 1: but please, uh, Don't miss it. This is a good conversation.
1:45
Speaker 1: To get a reminder or to learn a little bit
1:49
Speaker 1: about who Stephanie and Kate are, please, again, listen to
1:52
Speaker 1: part one because they share a little bit more about themselves.
1:55
Speaker 1: Not everything, but they do introduce themselves. We're not going
1:58
Speaker 1: to take time to do that today. We're just going
1:59
Speaker 1: to dive back in to our conversation about spiritual harm.
2:05
Speaker 1: And so welcome back, Kate and Stephanie.
2:08
Speaker 2: Thank you. Yeah.
2:10
Speaker 3: Good to be here.
2:11
Speaker 2: Yeah.
2:11
Speaker 1: Yeah. So let's let the conversation shift. We ended last
2:17
Speaker 1: time talking about, you know, this internal damage basically. And
2:22
Speaker 1: the grief that comes from that is hard. It's also
2:27
Speaker 1: life changing. When did you first sense that something wasn't
2:31
Speaker 1: just hurting you? Like you weren't just longing for something.
2:36
Speaker 1: There was something wrong. There was something dangerous going on. When,
2:40
Speaker 1: when did you first start noticing that or?
2:43
Speaker 3: Feeling that I kind of have two, two answers to this. Um,
2:51
Speaker 3: I would say where there was awareness that something's really
2:59
Speaker 3: wrong and I only directed at myself. I knew I
3:04
Speaker 3: was not doing well anymore and something was wrong with
3:07
Speaker 3: my life. wasn't till I was mid thirties and I
3:12
Speaker 3: just was having complete breakdowns all the time. And, and
3:17
Speaker 3: I couldn't control my response to life anymore, but things
3:24
Speaker 3: that I was having to override, I mean, that, that
3:28
Speaker 3: started from a very young age.
3:29
Speaker 1: Uh, uh, Before you shift to there, would you expand
3:36
Speaker 1: a little bit on what a breakdown means? Because I'm
3:40
Speaker 1: assuming you didn't have the luxury of being hospitalized. Maybe
3:43
Speaker 1: you did. But, you know, I don't sense that's what
3:47
Speaker 1: you're talking about here.
3:48
Speaker 3: No, not. No, I just. Essentially, I started crying all
3:54
Speaker 3: the time for two years straight. And I didn't understand why.
4:01
Speaker 2: Hmm.
4:02
Speaker 3: I just cried because it wasn't just like, oh, I'm
4:04
Speaker 3: having a rough day. You know, I hurt myself and
4:09
Speaker 3: my kids are sick or whatever. So those things were happening.
4:15
Speaker 3: I just was so sad and just had these crying
4:24
Speaker 3: meltdowns over what seemed like nothing. And I didn't understand why.
4:29
Speaker 3: And And I could not control my emotions to fit
4:34
Speaker 3: the box that I was supposed to be in because
4:37
Speaker 3: women are emotional, which is something that is always said
4:41
Speaker 3: in a very negative way about women. One of the
4:44
Speaker 3: reasons why women's voices can't be trusted is because they're emotional.
4:51
Speaker 3: So it's understood you're going to be emotional, but there's
4:55
Speaker 3: also only so much emotion that you're allowed to have.
5:00
Speaker 3: And then, of course, if you're going to be that emotional,
5:02
Speaker 3: you're just stacking against yourself why you're so untrustworthy. So
5:10
Speaker 3: I couldn't keep my body under control anymore. And that
5:19
Speaker 3: was a problem.
5:20
Speaker 1: Yeah. I bet. That's the understatement of the century.
5:27
Speaker 2: Yeah.
5:30
Speaker 3: And after two years, I just was like, oh, my gosh,
5:33
Speaker 3: I am so something is so very wrong. And I did.
5:37
Speaker 3: My doctor offered to put me on antidepressants and things
5:43
Speaker 3: like that. But my my stubbornness was I want to
5:49
Speaker 3: figure out what this is. I don't want something because
5:52
Speaker 3: other women I had seen, they were all on antidepressants.
5:58
Speaker 3: And I didn't see them actually thriving in life. They
6:02
Speaker 3: were just surviving their lives and staying in their boxes.
6:06
Speaker 3: And so I wanted to figure out what was wrong.
6:11
Speaker 3: So I wouldn't take the antidepressants. Wow.
6:17
Speaker 1: So you basically had run out of dopamine and serotonin,
6:22
Speaker 1: which in the medical world we call it, well, I
6:26
Speaker 1: called it in the pediatric medical world, the happy hormones.
6:30
Speaker 1: And so you'd run out of the happy hormones. So
6:33
Speaker 1: you're depleted of joy. You were depleted of resilience. You
6:39
Speaker 1: were depleted of, you know, commitment to just push through
6:44
Speaker 1: and you just couldn't do it anymore.
6:49
Speaker 3: Absolutely. And bringing up the joy, that was something every
6:52
Speaker 3: day I was just praying, God, You said that the
6:57
Speaker 3: joy of the Lord is my strength. I mean, I
6:59
Speaker 3: would say this over and over, and I'm just like,
7:01
Speaker 3: where's the joy? What happened to the joy? Why can't
7:05
Speaker 3: I find the joy? What am I doing wrong that
7:08
Speaker 3: I don't get joy? Because that's supposed to give me
7:10
Speaker 3: strength to get through everything, and I can't find the joy.
7:15
Speaker 1: Right. The joy of the Lord is my strength. So
7:18
Speaker 1: that's the math. The math wasn't working anymore. The math
7:24
Speaker 1: didn't add up.
7:25
Speaker 2: Yes.
7:26
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.
7:29
Speaker 2: Wow.
7:30
Speaker 1: How about you, Kate? Yeah.
7:33
Speaker 2: Yeah. So very similar to Stephanie's story. I think for me,
7:38
Speaker 2: it was probably an entire year of daily weeping with
7:42
Speaker 2: no reason behind it. No, I will say in quotation marks,
7:46
Speaker 2: no reason.
7:47
Speaker 1: That you could identify.
7:48
Speaker 2: That I could identify. Every small frustration, every small annoyance.
7:54
Speaker 2: would just lead to a flood. And I was at
7:59
Speaker 2: home with four little kids all day, every day. And
8:04
Speaker 2: it was multiple times every single day. And it was
8:07
Speaker 2: the same sort of experience. And I think my body
8:12
Speaker 2: could no longer hold the grief that it had been
8:19
Speaker 2: forced to for almost four decades at that point. And
8:24
Speaker 2: this I will also piggyback into what internal alarms did
8:28
Speaker 2: I have to override? I would say every single one
8:32
Speaker 2: from such an early age that I couldn't tell you
8:34
Speaker 2: even what they should have been. Every single question, confusion,
8:41
Speaker 2: hitch in my system, everything had to be disregarded because
8:47
Speaker 2: to give any attention to something that felt off would
8:52
Speaker 2: have felt like death. it would have thrown suspicion into
8:56
Speaker 2: the whole system. And there was no room for any
8:59
Speaker 2: suspicion in any of the system.
9:02
Speaker 1: I mean, you're both described. It's not merely impossible. It's
9:07
Speaker 1: a coffin. You know, you're put in a coffin and
9:11
Speaker 1: then told to thrive, like be joyful. And so at
9:15
Speaker 1: some point, and this is really common sometime between 35
9:19
Speaker 1: and 45 years, is when women can't hold the balls
9:23
Speaker 1: under the water anymore. Like psychologically, your brain can no
9:28
Speaker 1: longer consent to all of this. And it's just like
9:33
Speaker 1: something's got to give. And so then it's really tricky
9:37
Speaker 1: in those moments. And I hear you both describing this
9:39
Speaker 1: because your only lens that you've been allowed to have
9:43
Speaker 1: is there's something wrong with me. the disillusionment starts with
9:47
Speaker 1: you recognize you don't have joy. Like the promise isn't
9:51
Speaker 1: being fulfilled. What you were told would happen isn't happening.
9:57
Speaker 1: And your only solution is there's something wrong with me.
10:01
Speaker 1: That would be the only thing you have access to, right? Yes. Yeah.
10:10
Speaker 2: Yeah. Because taking that responsibility was the only answer for decades.
10:20
Speaker 1: And the answer to what was the question?
10:24
Speaker 2: The answer to keeping things calm, to making things work.
10:30
Speaker 2: It's my fault. I have to fix it. I have
10:33
Speaker 2: to figure it out.
10:36
Speaker 3: And I would add that it's the constant absorption of
10:43
Speaker 3: the other people around you's shame. Mm-hmm.
10:48
Speaker 1: Say more, Stephanie.
10:51
Speaker 3: Well, they don't want to sit in their shame of
10:59
Speaker 3: how they're not lining up with things.
11:02
Speaker 1: So this is going to sound a little sarcastic, and
11:05
Speaker 1: I do mean it a little bit sarcastically, but for
11:08
Speaker 1: what would they have to be ashamed?
11:09
Speaker 3: That's a good question. I mean, honestly, my body knows
11:16
Speaker 3: so well, the absorbing of other people's shame and trying
11:20
Speaker 3: to make them feel better. Like just instinctively knowing, oh,
11:27
Speaker 3: they're feeling uncomfortable in some way, I need to help them. Which,
11:35
Speaker 3: of course, is a very good woman thing to do,
11:37
Speaker 3: to be a good to be a helper. But I
11:41
Speaker 3: think that's where the there's confusion in that space of,
11:46
Speaker 3: I don't, I don't even know what, like, I don't
11:50
Speaker 3: have language for what they're feeling shame about. I just
11:56
Speaker 3: know it's my job. I'm sensing this is off. I
12:00
Speaker 3: need to bring ease and, and, and somehow absorb this emotion.
12:11
Speaker 3: that I would now give the language of shame to.
12:14
Speaker 1: While staying sweet and being joyful.
12:18
Speaker 2: Yes. And it's such an ethereal concept, this energetic transfer. Yes.
12:27
Speaker 2: And I'll call it energy because emotions are energy that
12:31
Speaker 2: are in your body and they can be shared. And
12:36
Speaker 2: this specific shame piece that Stephanie's bringing up is powerful.
12:41
Speaker 2: I'll just be very blunt and say they are casting
12:46
Speaker 2: the shame of their treatment of those beneath them. These
12:50
Speaker 2: are almost always people in authority who cannot carry the
12:54
Speaker 2: shame of their treatment of others. And so they cast
12:58
Speaker 2: not only the shame, but they are also mistreating those
13:04
Speaker 2: under them. I'm saying also quotations under them in authority.
13:08
Speaker 1: They are the harmers. They are the ones doing harm.
13:12
Speaker 1: And there is something actually in their bodies that is
13:16
Speaker 1: not well with it. And so they are feeling, in
13:20
Speaker 1: a sense, shame because there is a shame that leads
13:23
Speaker 1: to life. And so as the submissive woman, as the
13:31
Speaker 1: one who has to keep the peace at all times,
13:34
Speaker 1: you have to absorb the hit of of there's actually
13:39
Speaker 1: something wrong here. And the person doing the wrong cannot,
13:48
Speaker 1: will not, you know, in these systems, again, we're talking systems,
13:52
Speaker 1: the system will not teach responsibility for harming because this
13:56
Speaker 1: is the right way, right? It's the right way.
14:00
Speaker 2: Harm is the way that everyone stays in line.
14:03
Speaker 1: That's it. That's it.
14:04
Speaker 3: And authority is always right.
14:08
Speaker 2: Yes.
14:09
Speaker 3: So even if they're doing something wrong, we can't acknowledge
14:15
Speaker 3: that it's wrong. Nobody is allowed to acknowledge that what
14:17
Speaker 3: they did is wrong. So we must absorb their shame
14:24
Speaker 3: in doing something wrong because the authority can't be wrong.
14:29
Speaker 3: We can feel they're wrong in our bodies, but we
14:32
Speaker 3: cannot give actual language that they are wrong because... for
14:38
Speaker 3: some reason, that's going to cause the whole Christian foundation
14:43
Speaker 3: to crumble.
14:44
Speaker 1: Yeah. That's the belief, right?
14:48
Speaker 2: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
14:49
Speaker 1: That's the belief. At least, again, it's the implied belief. Yes.
14:54
Speaker 1: Rarely stated that overtly, but that is what we women
14:58
Speaker 1: are often holding in their bodies in these systems and
15:02
Speaker 1: will fight for, will actually fight for because of that fear.
15:07
Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely.
15:08
Speaker 2: And I want to name also that we are discussing
15:13
Speaker 2: the scapegoat role.
15:14
Speaker 1: Thank you.
15:16
Speaker 2: Yeah. And that women are given this role and they
15:21
Speaker 2: absorb it. They absorb the role. And I know you
15:25
Speaker 2: were talking about fighting, but what came to my mind
15:29
Speaker 2: was women fight to keep this role. They fight to
15:31
Speaker 2: continue to bear the shame. We as women, I will
15:37
Speaker 2: say we as women, when we're stuck in this system,
15:39
Speaker 2: we will fight until.
15:42
Speaker 1: We can't anymore. That's right. Because if we don't, if
15:46
Speaker 1: we actually quit abandoning ourselves and quit taking on the
15:52
Speaker 1: role of scapegoat, there's a lot at play, right? Because
15:59
Speaker 1: all the things, oftentimes including our children, are very wrapped
16:04
Speaker 1: up in this way of being. And so many times
16:10
Speaker 1: the fight that we see from other women and, and I, myself,
16:14
Speaker 1: when I was still in the system has to do
16:17
Speaker 1: with that. It's fear-based, right? It's, it's like, I can't,
16:21
Speaker 1: I can't, there's not even a, there's not, there's no context. There's,
16:25
Speaker 1: there's no slot for it. There's nowhere to put this need.
16:31
Speaker 1: And so you keep going until you can't. And that's
16:34
Speaker 1: what you just said too, Kate. And that's what you
16:36
Speaker 1: said too, Stephanie, about you just couldn't do it anymore.
16:39
Speaker 1: So both of you were talking about kind of what happened.
16:42
Speaker 1: That's interesting too. I'll just add that I had a
16:45
Speaker 1: very similar experience at about age 35 where I had
16:48
Speaker 1: just uncontrollable weeping and I could not just, I didn't
16:53
Speaker 1: know why I did either. Mm-hmm. And I would drop
16:57
Speaker 1: my kids off at school, cry for two hours. And
17:00
Speaker 1: I had this sort of in that imagery, you know,
17:03
Speaker 1: because I'm a very visual, very dissociative. I'm anagram nine,
17:06
Speaker 1: so I'm a great dissociator. But it was also a
17:10
Speaker 1: gift where I would put my head in the lap
17:12
Speaker 1: of Jesus and he would stroke my hair and he
17:15
Speaker 1: would help me get through this. But I didn't tell
17:18
Speaker 1: anybody that for years. I felt like I was absolutely
17:21
Speaker 1: stark raving mad. But that was the beginning of the
17:27
Speaker 1: end of that way of being for me too. So
17:30
Speaker 1: I just wanted to add that two cents worth.
17:33
Speaker 2: And I want to name it's beginning of the breaking.
17:36
Speaker 1: It's the beginning of the breaking.
17:40
Speaker 3: And I think I would add that. I think all
17:44
Speaker 3: women in these places, they all come to this point.
17:51
Speaker 3: We all come to this crossroad and we, What I
17:56
Speaker 3: named very clearly for myself is that I'm dying on
18:03
Speaker 3: the inside. And if I don't get help, the right help,
18:10
Speaker 3: then I'm going to live my life as a zombie, essentially.
18:13
Speaker 3: And I had enough fight in me to say, I
18:18
Speaker 3: want to figure out a way to stay alive. Hmm.
18:24
Speaker 3: And I think that's what I saw so many women
18:28
Speaker 3: around me in the church. They had become zombies. Yeah.
18:33
Speaker 3: And I was just, I've got to find a different way.
18:37
Speaker 3: All of them have chosen this path, but I have
18:40
Speaker 3: to find a different way because I don't want that.
18:50
Speaker 1: I'm just letting that land. Because how in the world?
18:56
Speaker 1: Like that, that to me, I just want to say too,
19:03
Speaker 1: that we are not here bashing God at all. That's
19:10
Speaker 1: evidence for God right there.
19:13
Speaker 3: Yes.
19:14
Speaker 1: Like you cannot explain at that crossroads with having no support, context, education,
19:26
Speaker 1: nothing in your life gave you, nothing in your view
19:31
Speaker 1: or what was given you gave you that spark. And
19:36
Speaker 1: I'm not using spark like in a woo-woo sense, but
19:39
Speaker 1: just that decision to not do that. I want to
19:45
Speaker 1: live that.
19:47
Speaker 3: Well, I was having the conversation with God. Like I
19:50
Speaker 3: was in my front yard and he was who I
19:53
Speaker 3: was talking to. And I'm just saying, I don't want
19:56
Speaker 3: to die. I got to find another way. You've got
19:58
Speaker 3: to show me a way. Wow.
20:01
Speaker 2: Yeah. I came to a very similar place where I
20:05
Speaker 2: realized because I had the thought that I want to die,
20:11
Speaker 2: I knew something was terribly wrong.
20:20
Speaker 1: So up to that point, let's see if we can
20:22
Speaker 1: circle back and just pick up a couple of pieces
20:25
Speaker 1: about how we got here. Like, let's talk about spiritual
20:29
Speaker 1: bypassing or what we did with our bodies up to
20:34
Speaker 1: this point, you know. How did you, like, I can
20:38
Speaker 1: tell you all kinds of ways I spiritual bypassed. God
20:41
Speaker 1: bless June Hunt. Like, I don't know if you guys,
20:44
Speaker 1: she's probably too old for you, but June Hunt was
20:47
Speaker 1: a little Southern Baptist lady that had a program on
20:50
Speaker 1: the late night radio called Hope for the Heart. And
20:55
Speaker 1: after I watched... washed my kids. I'd go to the
20:58
Speaker 1: grocery store and I would listen to June Hunt like
21:00
Speaker 1: at midnight. I would go to the grocery store then
21:02
Speaker 1: because nobody was there. And my husband was home because,
21:05
Speaker 1: you know, he was in residency and busy. And I
21:08
Speaker 1: remember her teaching through Psalm 23 and going through each
21:13
Speaker 1: word and emphasizing each word as you go. And it
21:15
Speaker 1: was a gift. Like, I'm not saying spiritual bypassing isn't necessary.
21:19
Speaker 1: I'm not disparaging spiritual bypassing, but it also kept me
21:23
Speaker 1: surviving and not thriving, right? And And June Hunt was
21:27
Speaker 1: such a great help for that. You know, she was,
21:29
Speaker 1: she was so far ahead of her time. How did
21:32
Speaker 1: you spiritually bypass? What, what ways did you find to
21:36
Speaker 1: do that?
21:37
Speaker 2: I think the teaching is so woven in that our
21:39
Speaker 2: bodies are evil. And so for me, the spiritual bypassing
21:46
Speaker 2: was literally ignoring any sensations from my body. And then secondly,
21:53
Speaker 2: any emotional sensations, um, Both of those two parts that
21:59
Speaker 2: make us human, it was spiritually explained as to why
22:04
Speaker 2: they should not be considered in any decisions.
22:08
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I do just want to reemphasize here. We
22:11
Speaker 1: talked a little bit in part one about the difference
22:13
Speaker 1: between choices and decisions. These are neither, actually. It's like, again,
22:18
Speaker 1: I'm thinking back to my nursing days of third-degree burns
22:23
Speaker 1: where you just don't feel anything anymore. It's like you're
22:28
Speaker 1: not trying to dissociate from your body and emotions at
22:31
Speaker 1: that point. You just don't.
22:34
Speaker 2: Right. And I think absorbing that teaching so fully and
22:39
Speaker 2: being immersed in it for so long. And I was
22:43
Speaker 2: definitely the good girl. I wanted to follow every rule
22:47
Speaker 2: down to the, I will disown my body even though
22:52
Speaker 2: I'm living in it.
22:54
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I had very similar response. I always
23:02
Speaker 3: remember the heart is deceitful. And I'm always been definitely
23:08
Speaker 3: a heart centric person. So, you know, just that constant
23:12
Speaker 3: fight of every way I show up in the world
23:16
Speaker 3: is evil because I was born evil. Right. and my
23:21
Speaker 3: heart is trying to deceive me and trick me. And
23:25
Speaker 3: so I have to kill that and then be told
23:31
Speaker 3: what the right thing is so that I can be
23:34
Speaker 3: the good girl and have the good life that is
23:39
Speaker 3: being promised and fulfillment and joy.
23:42
Speaker 1: So essentially spiritual bypassing can be done with all, just
23:51
Speaker 1: being within the system, right? It's, it's what we're taught.
23:55
Speaker 1: It's what you were taught to do with spiritually bypass essentially.
23:58
Speaker 3: Oh, absolutely. Yes. And the few times that things were
24:04
Speaker 3: so confusing, overwhelming, hurtful that I would speak up to
24:10
Speaker 3: somebody else. For instance, early in my marriage, I went
24:17
Speaker 3: to an older woman in the church and And I
24:20
Speaker 3: cried to her and told her how things had just
24:23
Speaker 3: been so bad. And she told me that I need
24:27
Speaker 3: to love my husband. And so what I needed to
24:31
Speaker 3: do was go home and make his favorite food and
24:35
Speaker 3: find ways to show him love. Because that's how you
24:42
Speaker 3: show up as a good woman. In your marriage, even
24:46
Speaker 3: when there's difficult things, you need to sacrifice yourself and
24:50
Speaker 3: love others. And your husband's number one on that list.
24:53
Speaker 3: So go home and make his favorite food. That's exactly
24:56
Speaker 3: what I was told to do.
24:58
Speaker 1: And what did you do to survive that moment? Did
25:03
Speaker 1: you just go home and make his favorite food?
25:05
Speaker 3: I mean, I was in a lot of conflict. I mean,
25:09
Speaker 3: I think essentially now I would say I felt a
25:11
Speaker 3: lot of betrayal. Yeah, that was betrayal. thought I was
25:15
Speaker 3: going to get some help and support. And instead, I'm
25:22
Speaker 3: supposed to just sacrifice more.
25:26
Speaker 1: That's it right there. Okay, pause. From an empty well.
25:32
Speaker 2: Yes.
25:34
Speaker 1: Find more water. Just find it. You're literally feeling like
25:42
Speaker 1: you have lost your mind.
25:46
Speaker 2: Yeah.
25:46
Speaker 1: You go for help. It's reinforced that you have the
25:52
Speaker 1: power to solve this. You're the problem, in other words.
25:58
Speaker 2: Yep.
25:59
Speaker 3: More love, more service.
26:01
Speaker 1: Stop it.
26:01
Speaker 2: Yeah.
26:03
Speaker 1: Stop needing.
26:09
Speaker 2: Don't expect a drink in a desert. You go find
26:13
Speaker 2: the water for everyone else to drink.
26:19
Speaker 3: You solved the problem. No one else is expected to change. And,
26:25
Speaker 3: you know, and if you keep praying, one day you
26:28
Speaker 3: will wake up and your husband will be magically fixed
26:32
Speaker 3: and you will have a beautiful marriage and your children
26:35
Speaker 3: will be happy and healthy and Christmas will look charming
26:41
Speaker 3: and delightful.
26:44
Speaker 2: Yes.
26:45
Speaker 1: Yes, the dreams will all come true.
26:48
Speaker 2: Yeah.
26:48
Speaker 1: Yeah.
26:50
Speaker 3: Just keep praying, keep serving, keep loving.
26:55
Speaker 1: It's a long game. Just keep playing the game.
27:00
Speaker 2: Right.
27:05
Speaker 1: You know what really ticks me off about this? besides
27:09
Speaker 1: the hurt that I see in both of your faces here,
27:12
Speaker 1: it's such a pained experience. But what really ticks me
27:16
Speaker 1: off about it is the twisting of Jesus's love that
27:21
Speaker 1: it does right there. Where, you know, I'm thinking about
27:25
Speaker 1: the woman at the well who Jesus actually asked for water,
27:29
Speaker 1: you know, and the way that I read that, now
27:33
Speaker 1: is that he he did ask her for what like
27:37
Speaker 1: he did say could i have what you can give
27:40
Speaker 1: which was a glass of water in the middle of
27:42
Speaker 1: the day but she had a well full of water
27:46
Speaker 1: to draw from and that's why he was asking her
27:50
Speaker 1: for it you know i want to drink of water
27:52
Speaker 1: from you because you have water and that's such a
27:56
Speaker 1: desire i want to i want to give water that's
28:00
Speaker 1: why i'm doing this podcast you know I want to give,
28:04
Speaker 1: but I have to have a full well from which
28:06
Speaker 1: to draw water. And so that's what really ticks me
28:11
Speaker 1: off about this is the twisting of the actual love
28:17
Speaker 1: that you both have within you. But that was never
28:22
Speaker 1: given to you to draw from, you know, like you
28:25
Speaker 1: couldn't draw from that.
28:28
Speaker 2: We've had to resource ourselves. we've had, nothing was being
28:35
Speaker 2: poured into us. We had to develop these resources and
28:39
Speaker 2: as quickly as we could develop them, they were used
28:43
Speaker 2: and demanded. And it feels, it's a losing, it's a
28:51
Speaker 2: no-win battle. There's no way to win this situation.
28:54
Speaker 1: And there's no end.
28:56
Speaker 2: No, it's, until you go to heaven... This is your life.
29:03
Speaker 2: The futility of women in this system is, I think,
29:07
Speaker 2: where I was headed with that. Like there's just a,
29:10
Speaker 2: I wouldn't even say it's a low level. There is
29:14
Speaker 2: just a hopelessness and a futility that is experienced by
29:19
Speaker 2: women who are in these high control systems where they
29:24
Speaker 2: have no agency or autonomy to affect change. And they're
29:28
Speaker 2: told to continue to give and give and give until
29:31
Speaker 2: we reach this breaking point.
29:33
Speaker 1: That we've discussed.
29:35
Speaker 2: Yeah.
29:36
Speaker 1: Oh, my gosh. That's so the the word, I'm so
29:38
Speaker 1: glad you said the word futility, because I think the fight,
29:43
Speaker 1: you tell me what you guys think about this, but
29:45
Speaker 1: I think the women that are still fighting for the
29:47
Speaker 1: system from within the system are fighting to avoid the
29:51
Speaker 1: futility because there is no end to that. Like you said,
29:55
Speaker 1: there is no win. There is no end. And I've
29:58
Speaker 1: been so beefed befuddled, baffled, taken back over and over
30:04
Speaker 1: again by women who really side with the harm of
30:10
Speaker 1: other women. And it's the only thing I can come
30:12
Speaker 1: up with is not to say that there's not evil
30:17
Speaker 1: or evil intent, but But I think that's the fight
30:22
Speaker 1: is it's to stay alive. It's the version of living
30:26
Speaker 1: that they are giving themselves access to or that they've
30:29
Speaker 1: chosen at that crossroads where the three of us said,
30:32
Speaker 1: this is not working. Either I am stark raving mad
30:37
Speaker 1: and I'm willing to risk the possibility of that to
30:40
Speaker 1: somehow reach out, right? I've got to reach out somehow.
30:45
Speaker 1: Versus I will keep that inside and keep feeding off
30:49
Speaker 1: of whatever self-abandonment, self-destruction is happening inside to survive.
30:57
Speaker 2: And I really wanted to say something about exiting the system.
31:07
Speaker 2: That women make up more than 50% of the systems.
31:09
Speaker 2: And women attend religious events. in higher numbers than men
31:18
Speaker 2: and often are subjected to this.
31:22
Speaker 1: And there's, I won't bring.
31:24
Speaker 2: Up cultural things right now, but there's a lot of
31:26
Speaker 2: cultural things happening that when women exit specific systems, it
31:33
Speaker 2: gets noticed. And I think there's something to be said
31:38
Speaker 2: for exiting a system that is causing harm. Exodus. Yes. Yes.
31:46
Speaker 3: Yes.
31:46
Speaker 1: Just saying.
31:48
Speaker 2: Right.
31:50
Speaker 1: What were you going to say, Stephanie?
31:53
Speaker 3: Well, I just wanted to bring in a compassionate element
31:58
Speaker 3: to the women who are in it, who even will
32:03
Speaker 3: defend it to the death and support the men who
32:08
Speaker 3: are being abusive. I feel like they... They came to
32:14
Speaker 3: their crossroads, right? They made the choice they felt like
32:17
Speaker 3: they had to make. And it is super, super painful
32:25
Speaker 3: to live in that zombie state and watch other women
32:32
Speaker 3: going on to life. And if they feel like they
32:37
Speaker 3: cannot make that decision, whatever the reason is, it's... I
32:45
Speaker 3: think it's going to naturally cause them to fight for
32:49
Speaker 3: what they have and put a lot of negative focus
32:53
Speaker 3: on the other because they don't think they can have it.
32:55
Speaker 3: Like it's this envy piece. I don't want to feel
33:00
Speaker 3: what life might feel like because I don't think I
33:03
Speaker 3: can get to it.
33:04
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. And sometimes for really good reasons. And
33:08
Speaker 1: so I'm really grateful that you brought a compassionate focus
33:11
Speaker 1: to make sure that we stay there because it isn't,
33:14
Speaker 1: we did it right and everybody else is doing it wrong.
33:16
Speaker 1: It's more like, you know, for whatever reasons I, and
33:23
Speaker 1: each one is individual. So there's a million different reasons,
33:26
Speaker 1: but oftentimes it has to do with the financial piece
33:30
Speaker 1: that keeps people from taking the plunge, you know, into
33:35
Speaker 1: something different or the potential of something different. And that's
33:39
Speaker 1: not easy, right, ladies? That's not easy. I mean, that
33:43
Speaker 1: is a very, very real problem. And so to remember
33:47
Speaker 1: that this is not about good, bad, right, or wrong.
33:50
Speaker 1: It's more about the reality of the toxicity and the
33:57
Speaker 1: actual daily harm that it causes and the systemic problem
34:03
Speaker 1: and the legacy problem. So it's perpetuating that. these harmful
34:08
Speaker 1: ways of being over and over and over again, while
34:13
Speaker 1: we say we want our legacies to change, you know?
34:17
Speaker 1: And so it's like, well, something's got to change then,
34:20
Speaker 1: if that's true. And I just, I wondered, Kate, if
34:23
Speaker 1: you would just spell out, like, with no mystery, why
34:29
Speaker 1: does it matter that more than 50% of the church
34:31
Speaker 1: or 50% of the population of the world is women?
34:36
Speaker 1: more than? Why does that matter? What are you saying?
34:41
Speaker 2: There is power and strength in numbers. Yes. And because
34:46
Speaker 2: women are so numerous, that is threatening, I think, to
34:55
Speaker 2: two structures that have control as the focus, control and
35:02
Speaker 2: It's just control. And because control is what leads to
35:06
Speaker 2: abuse and toxicity. When one person thinks that they have
35:10
Speaker 2: the way, the right way for a whole group of
35:13
Speaker 2: other people, it takes away autonomy and agency. And these
35:18
Speaker 2: women are left struggling, struggling and hurt and harmed in
35:25
Speaker 2: these systems.
35:29
Speaker 1: So as we start the off ramp of closing this
35:33
Speaker 1: conversation today, I want to be really clear that these systems,
35:39
Speaker 1: these leaders who are always men in these circumstances, It's
35:45
Speaker 1: always men because they're the ones that can talk in
35:48
Speaker 1: authority in these systems. Will not say you have to
35:52
Speaker 1: believe it most of the time. They don't say you
35:54
Speaker 1: have to believe every word I say or you have
35:56
Speaker 1: to count of the system. It's not usually that overt sometimes,
36:03
Speaker 1: but especially... Nowadays, I think I call it the moving target.
36:07
Speaker 1: The target is always moving. So just as soon as
36:10
Speaker 1: we get something named, then the target changes. And it's not, well,
36:14
Speaker 1: that's not, you know, most of the time that's true,
36:17
Speaker 1: except for like the Mark Driscolls of the world who
36:20
Speaker 1: continue to harp on, you know, men that stay at
36:24
Speaker 1: home are idiots kind of thing. He just recently said
36:27
Speaker 1: that this week after, like, I mean, it's, it's just
36:30
Speaker 1: shocking to me.
36:31
Speaker 3: Yeah.
36:32
Speaker 1: And thank you, because he's showing what we're talking about
36:36
Speaker 1: really clearly. Most of the time, it's not that clear, though.
36:41
Speaker 1: And so if there are women who are at the
36:44
Speaker 1: crossroads right now, so right now, as we close, I
36:47
Speaker 1: want you to talk to the women who are at
36:51
Speaker 1: the crossroads, who maybe they're a little past it, but
36:56
Speaker 1: they're still aware of that there's a choice or a
37:00
Speaker 1: decision that they're needing to make, or maybe they're not
37:03
Speaker 1: quite there, or maybe they are right there. What's a
37:06
Speaker 1: first step to reclaiming something of themselves, to just changing
37:11
Speaker 1: their mind a little bit about their identity or that
37:15
Speaker 1: self-abandonment or reclaiming something of agency within themselves? What would you,
37:22
Speaker 1: and take a minute, you know, because I didn't spell
37:24
Speaker 1: this question out, but what would you invite them to.
37:29
Speaker 3: So if I could be so bold as to roll
37:33
Speaker 3: this question back just a little. Yeah, please. I just
37:38
Speaker 3: want to name for women at the crossroads or not
37:44
Speaker 3: even yet at the crossroads. Maybe they're the ones that
37:46
Speaker 3: are stuck. They've already transitioned into a zombie sort of state.
37:53
Speaker 3: But not only is there psychological trauma. oppression and the
38:01
Speaker 3: spiritual and all, but there is the physical aspect. I mean,
38:05
Speaker 3: I just think we can't leave this conversation without touching
38:10
Speaker 3: on the fact that women are also responsible for men's
38:15
Speaker 3: sexuality and for them to be pure men. Um, they
38:24
Speaker 3: need to have a woman who is being very active
38:30
Speaker 3: to meet their needs, because this is where it is
38:34
Speaker 3: appropriate for them to have those needs met. And they
38:39
Speaker 3: are bombarded with inappropriate women's bodies everywhere. This is what
38:44
Speaker 3: we're told. And so women have just, it's such a
38:51
Speaker 3: deep violation when you don't even have your body, as
38:58
Speaker 3: your own. Like there is no acceptable no anywhere.
39:05
Speaker 1: And you mentioned that this is bringing up your comment
39:09
Speaker 1: from the previous episode, Kate, I mean, Stephanie, that we
39:13
Speaker 1: did where getting married took that one thing away. Like
39:18
Speaker 1: you had access to your no, at least to some degree,
39:24
Speaker 1: like you had a room to go to.
39:25
Speaker 3: Right.
39:26
Speaker 1: And, and, and so now when you're married, my assumption.
39:30
Speaker 1: is you don't get your own room anymore right and
39:33
Speaker 1: and not only that but you lose ownership your body
39:36
Speaker 1: is no longer your own quite.
39:39
Speaker 3: Literally yeah right and there is no private place like
39:43
Speaker 3: you can't even take a shower no like you're at
39:47
Speaker 3: risk everywhere you go Of, of having violation.
39:54
Speaker 1: Yes.
39:56
Speaker 2: Violation.
39:58
Speaker 3: Like you don't, because you don't get to have a no,
40:00
Speaker 3: you're not allowed to have a no in that.
40:03
Speaker 2: Yeah.
40:03
Speaker 1: And, and before violation comes intrusion. And so, you know,
40:09
Speaker 1: to those ladies who might be listening or women who
40:11
Speaker 1: might be listening to this, who are like, I don't,
40:14
Speaker 1: I can't really identify violation, but can you identify a
40:17
Speaker 1: contraction in your body? when you're just trying to get
40:21
Speaker 1: a shower without something sexual or some sexual innuendo or
40:28
Speaker 1: some comment, like just to say, pay attention, you know,
40:33
Speaker 1: to your body. And I'm so glad that you circled
40:35
Speaker 1: back and rolled that question back. I think is how
40:38
Speaker 1: you said it is so important.
40:41
Speaker 2: Yeah.
40:42
Speaker 3: Cause I mean, just the fact that, My boobs could
40:47
Speaker 3: be grabbed at any moment or my butt slapped while
40:51
Speaker 3: I'm trying to take care of other things like children
40:54
Speaker 3: or making dinner. Just even that to not even be
40:59
Speaker 3: able to have safety in my own body and doing
41:03
Speaker 3: these other things that were required of me. You just
41:07
Speaker 3: never knew. And then what does that mean? Oh, that
41:10
Speaker 3: probably means that you need to get the kids in
41:13
Speaker 3: bed at a certain time. because other demands are coming.
41:19
Speaker 1: Not spoken, but right. This is not. Yeah.
41:23
Speaker 2: Oh yeah.
41:24
Speaker 1: This is all right.
41:24
Speaker 3: It's, it's that you get slapped on the butt and
41:27
Speaker 3: it's not just that, which is of itself could be uncomfortable.
41:35
Speaker 2: Yes.
41:35
Speaker 1: Because we, because, because we can't say I'm feeling uncomfortable.
41:41
Speaker 1: I'm feeling like I would like to physically and sexually
41:44
Speaker 1: connect with you tonight because that would be so clear.
41:47
Speaker 1: And then you would have a yes or a no.
41:49
Speaker 2: And then you would be able to answer. I think
41:55
Speaker 2: as we're, as we, as you were saying, we were
41:58
Speaker 2: off ramping. I really want to name the loss that
42:04
Speaker 2: comes at this crossroads, the counting the cost of the
42:08
Speaker 2: loss because we, while the communities can be harmful, while
42:16
Speaker 2: the relationships can be damaging, they are still sometimes the
42:22
Speaker 2: only connection and acceptance and belonging that women have or
42:29
Speaker 2: feel that they are entitled to. You're often told to
42:32
Speaker 2: separate from the world, the culture at large.
42:35
Speaker 3: And so we.
42:36
Speaker 2: Have this sense of if women, I see something that
42:43
Speaker 2: is bringing harm to me or others, and I say
42:47
Speaker 2: something or I step out, I will lose everything.
42:52
Speaker 1: Yeah.
42:53
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yes. And I don't diminish that at all. It's
43:01
Speaker 2: a cost that I'm sure all of us have had
43:04
Speaker 2: to count. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
43:06
Speaker 1: And it isn't. And yes, exactly that. And it's also
43:12
Speaker 1: so terrifying because the setup, part of the setup is
43:17
Speaker 1: that safety is in the system and that there is
43:21
Speaker 1: no safe community. I remember leaving church the last time,
43:28
Speaker 1: which I've had several iterations of leaving whatever church situation
43:33
Speaker 1: I was in. at least a couple big ones in
43:36
Speaker 1: my life. And the last one I remember thinking, I can't,
43:40
Speaker 1: I don't, I don't know what I would do without
43:43
Speaker 1: a weekly iteration of church and community and bringing my
43:47
Speaker 1: gifts to that place because that's what I was made for.
43:51
Speaker 1: That's what I believed, you know? And so I agree
43:56
Speaker 1: that counting the loss and we are like, we are
44:00
Speaker 1: here with our hands extended and, and, Part of what
44:05
Speaker 1: we're suggesting, at least what I'm suggesting, is that it's
44:10
Speaker 1: not all true what you've been told, that there's nothing
44:13
Speaker 1: outside the walls. That's what I believed, that I had
44:18
Speaker 1: to be in the walls to have safety. And I've
44:21
Speaker 1: actually found the opposite to be true. It's much safer
44:24
Speaker 1: outside the walls. much more grace-filled, much kinder, much gentler
44:29
Speaker 1: out here in many, many ways. Not in every way.
44:33
Speaker 1: It's still a hostile world that we live in. But
44:37
Speaker 1: in terms of the grace and the compassion and the
44:40
Speaker 1: creativity and the love that I found outside the walls
44:46
Speaker 1: is so different than what I was ever told. Back
44:54
Speaker 1: to that question, then. What would you offer them to
44:58
Speaker 1: just begin to reclaim something of their autonomy? Do they
45:01
Speaker 1: have to leave the whole system, for one thing? I
45:04
Speaker 1: think that's also a good question. Like, not everybody's going
45:07
Speaker 1: to do that. So I answered my own question. No,
45:09
Speaker 1: they don't.
45:11
Speaker 3: Good job.
45:12
Speaker 2: You did answer that one. Good job.
45:13
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you.
45:14
Speaker 2: Because no, we don't believe that.
45:16
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't.
45:17
Speaker 2: I will speak for myself. I do not believe that
45:19
Speaker 2: every person needs to leave the systems in which they're
45:21
Speaker 2: a part of. But there are paths back to yourself.
45:27
Speaker 2: There are ways to reclaim the parts of you that
45:33
Speaker 2: maybe you didn't even realize you've lost. And there are
45:37
Speaker 2: people who have gone before and know those paths by heart.
45:43
Speaker 2: And they're ready and willing to help.
45:47
Speaker 3: Yeah, because nobody wants to be alone. Like that's, that's
45:50
Speaker 3: the big driving force. That's why we stay in these
45:52
Speaker 3: communities because we want to be accepted and not known.
45:59
Speaker 2: Yes.
46:00
Speaker 3: And not be alone.
46:01
Speaker 2: Right.
46:03
Speaker 1: And for resources like you brought up earlier, Kate.
46:08
Speaker 3: So definitely don't, don't try to leave without others there
46:17
Speaker 3: by your side. And go ahead.
46:22
Speaker 1: I was going to say it's okay to be strategic.
46:25
Speaker 1: It's okay to have a little, like you don't have
46:27
Speaker 1: to call it a secret, but it's okay to be
46:29
Speaker 1: thinking something. That's probably, if I get to answer my
46:35
Speaker 1: own question, the first step I would offer is, you know,
46:39
Speaker 1: let your rebellious thought be rebellious just in your head
46:43
Speaker 1: for a minute. It's not hurting anybody. To have a
46:47
Speaker 1: rebellious thought, just let it live and breathe for a
46:50
Speaker 1: minute and see where it takes you.
46:54
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was thinking, well, what if you are right?
46:59
Speaker 3: Whatever place you come in, like, can we just ask
47:02
Speaker 3: the question, what if you're right? What if you're seeing well?
47:08
Speaker 1: I wonder if. I wonder if you're seeing well. I
47:13
Speaker 1: wonder if you're seeing something that needs to be seen.
47:18
Speaker 1: That feels like a really, really good way to end
47:20
Speaker 1: is I wonder if, and maybe we just end too with,
47:26
Speaker 1: I wonder what you need, you dear woman who's listening, who,
47:32
Speaker 1: you know, maybe this is bringing you more of a
47:34
Speaker 1: sense of a bind and you're feeling feelings that are
47:38
Speaker 1: very uncomfortable for you. Just right here in this moment,
47:42
Speaker 1: I wonder what you need. Maybe it's another breath. We
47:47
Speaker 1: all take a breath, you know, and maybe it's confidentially
47:52
Speaker 1: reaching out to Kate or Stephanie at their email, just
47:56
Speaker 1: to ask some questions, you know, um, see what they
48:00
Speaker 1: would suggest. So how can people get in touch with you,
48:05
Speaker 1: Kate and Stephanie? What's your, what's your most favorite way?
48:09
Speaker 1: Obviously they can go to the broken and beautiful.com and
48:11
Speaker 1: find you on our website under the remote collectives.
48:14
Speaker 3: Yes.
48:15
Speaker 1: Coaches. And how else?
48:17
Speaker 2: Yes. And then, um, love rising.live or Kate at love rising.live. Okay.
48:25
Speaker 3: And you can find me on Instagram at the space
48:29
Speaker 3: between the words. And also my email, um, is Stephanie
48:36
Speaker 3: Rose coaching.gmail.com.
48:43
Speaker 2: Yes.
48:44
Speaker 1: Beautiful. So please do reach out or if you're in
48:49
Speaker 1: transition already or if you've already left, Kate and Stephanie
48:52
Speaker 1: are here. They're doing coaching. They're doing story work. They're
48:55
Speaker 1: able to help you really start weaving your story together
48:58
Speaker 1: in ways that make sense. And so please reach out
49:02
Speaker 1: to any of us or at thebrokenandbeautiful.com. You can find
49:05
Speaker 1: other coaches as well if you find someone else that
49:07
Speaker 1: meets your specific needs that you're looking for. Well, Kate
49:12
Speaker 1: and Stephanie, thank you so much for this conversation. I
49:15
Speaker 1: feel like we could talk for hours. I just looked
49:17
Speaker 1: up and saw that we are 20 minutes over. time.
49:20
Speaker 1: And I'm so sorry about I was just completely immersed.
49:23
Speaker 1: I wasn't even paying attention to the clock. So thank
49:26
Speaker 1: you for your grace. And we'll see you next time
49:30
Speaker 1: because I'm sure there will be a next time.
49:33
Speaker 2: Thank you so much.
49:34
Speaker 3: Thank you.
49:34
Speaker 2: Bye bye.
49:39
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49:43
Speaker 1: Echoes and Edges on your favorite podcast platform. Leave a
49:46
Speaker 1: five-star review and share with a friend who might need
49:49
Speaker 1: a gentle invitation to self-understanding. Echoes and Edges is produced
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50:03
Speaker 1: where bruises speak and healing finds its voice.