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50: Be Seen w/ Jen Gottlieb · Harder Than Life

• 0:00
  I'm Kelly Siegel and this is harder than life a podcast about self-love self-awareness business and health We tell outrageous stories and boil everything down to simple practical advice. You can start using today. Let's get living
• 0:15
  Today's guest needs no introduction. She is a powerhouse entrepreneur, international speaker, host of the I Dare You podcast and co-founder of Super Connector Media. We can now add author and let me tell you after reading this book, be seen. It will be best-selling author.
• 0:31
  This stepmother, wife, and even dog mom to three dogs. We can also add daddy's girl and ruler of life experiences to this list. A true beautiful soul inside and out. It's my honor to have Jen Gottlieb on the harder than life podcast today.
• 0:46
  I feel so grateful to be here. I'm so excited. Let's dive right on it because I feel like we're hopping at the bit to talk before we can press record. So let's get into it. We were, Jen, and I got to tell the listeners, when this airs, we're going to write around when it comes out. This book was so good. I could not put it down and I had to read it because it's protected on my phone and I just binged it. So thank you.
• 1:10
  everybody's going to love it. You're going to get so many accolades. And I dare you to not cry because I did several times while reading the book and preparing for this.
• 1:20
  From the moment I met you in New York, I see you, I am in awe of you, and I want my daughter to grind like you did. I wanna start off by reading a quick passage from your book to get things kicked off. I hope I can do this, but it was also a reel that you did last night, and my daughter looked and said, who is that, dad? She's so pretty.
• 1:42
  and i said you're gonna meet her someday so it says as a kid all i ever wanted was to be seen by dad's video camera by the figure skating coach by the cool girls at school by the audiences at my children's theater productions looking back now i realized i spent years screaming at the world to look at me but i didn't have the courage to showcase who i really was that
• 2:08
  That only led me to bulimia, a broken heart, and a bleach blonde breakdown on the floor of the metal show. That metal show. As we pulled into my dad's driveway, all those neon signs I'd followed, knowing or unknowingly, throughout my entire journey, lit up in full force like a field of light behind me. I looked into the rearview mirror and finally saw them connect the dots. What does that make you feel?
• 2:35
  I remember that moment as a very pivotal, impactful moment in my life. And it's not, I know that that moment that I had in that second where I was like, oh my gosh, it all makes sense is going to happen again and again and again on my journey. It's not going to be the only time, but that was the moment that I realized that I
• 2:58
  All the stuff, all the messiness, all the out of alignment stuff, all the craziness, like we'll get into it, of my story and the person that's listening to this, everything that you've been to, been through in your life and been to and experienced, whether it's good or bad.
• 3:14
  is something that's going to make up who you're supposed to become. And the Steve Jobs quote, you can't connect the dots looking forward, you can only connect them looking backwards, couldn't be more true. Because when I was a personal trainer, just dying to start my business, or when I was an actress trying to get a part, trying to wait for someone to pick me, when I was touring the country, when I was,
• 3:31
  trying to just fit in with my hedge fund trader boyfriend's friends and be the perfect like Upper West Side, Upper East Side rich wifey and doing all of these things, trying to fit my square peg into all of these different round and triangle holes, trying to be what I needed to be for everybody else.
• 3:48
  All of those moments, while they were completely out of alignment and they were a lot of them were complete shit shows, they were important dots to my story and they all make up the book. And when I was in the car with my dad on the way home from that speaking engagement where he got to actually see me for the first time doing something that was actually me being real Jen. Like, finally, I feel like my square peg in my square hole, like they get fit. And he was like, oh, my gosh, everything makes sense now.
• 4:17
  All of it. This is what it was for. It was preparing you for this. And now that there's all these stories in a book, I remember, Kelly, I used to, at the hardest moment of my whole life, when I was in that little apartment and I was banging my head up against the wall, I remember looking out that window and saying, the only thing I could say to myself that would make me feel any kind of better was one day I'll know why this happened.
• 4:39
  And I didn't know why it happened. And I didn't even really have full belief that I would, but I just kept repeating it. And now, like, having this conversation, it's like, holy crap, it was supposed to be a book. All these stories were supposed to happen so that I could use them to help other people and to really live in the fullest version of who I am. And without them, I wouldn't be me. I cannot wait to hear what's next for you because –
• 5:03
  I didn't know there was deep substance to all this. And the stories are bananas. And you just kept grinding. It kept going. And the reason why that... I read that part immediately because I was... I literally saw the reel. And then that was the last part I had to read yesterday before finishing show prep. And my daughter watched it. And all I could think of is fast forward to me doing that with my daughter. And I just got literally butterflies. Because just... We're going to go all things book. You and I...
• 5:33
  You are, and I'm just going to say it, the best female speaker on the planet. You can Google her to find out the basic stuff about it, but just buy her book and learn the real Jen 2.0 as she refers to herself in the book. Jen, you talk about being in the pocket. Will you explain what that is and tell us when you felt most in the pocket in your life?
• 5:54
  Yeah, in the pocket, a lot of people talk about being in flow, right? Flow state where it almost feels like you're doing something at that time, it makes time stop. Like you're having a conversation with somebody and three hours go by and you're like, how did that happen? That was like two seconds.
• 6:11
  Or maybe you're performing on stage or you're dancing at a party or you're doing something that you fully feel is your favorite thing on earth to do. And it feels like the time went by like that. And it feels easy and it feels effortless and it feels fun. And you feel like the most real version of you.
• 6:28
  So I want everyone that's listening to just envision that for a second. Like the first thing that comes to mind, like maybe it's even just a person that you're around. And when you're around that person, you don't feel nervous. You don't, you feel like you can be quiet if you want, not say a word and it's not weird, or you can be loud and totally yourself and, and dance around and be you and nobody's judging you and you don't care. That's what I feel like in the pocket is. And I, for the first time learned when I was in the pocket was when I was very, very young. And for me, that was always performing. It was when I was on stage.
• 6:58
  And from the moment I could speak, I didn't say this in the book, but I was a weird kid. And when I was really young, I started talking. Like I started talking way before any other baby. I was not walking yet. And I was speaking in full sentences.
• 7:13
  So my parents thought I was a genius, naturally. And they had a piece of stuff on me. They thought I had a really high IQ. And it turns out that I was definitely not a genius. I always just had a really, really loud mouth. And I liked performing. And I liked...
• 7:28
  Having that connection with an audience. And I remember this moment, like it was yesterday. I was probably seven or eight years old and I was on stage and I was performing in front of an audience. I was in this children's theater group. And I remember standing on that stage, looking at the audience and thinking in my mind, holy crap, there is nothing better than this. And I want to do this for the rest of my life. And that was when I felt the most me.
• 7:55
  And over time, Kelly, like you can probably see this with your daughter. She's 14. So when we were little kids, like when I was eight, seven, six, and I just wanted to be seen as who I was in my full expression of myself. I had no problem screaming and crying for what I wanted, standing up on any stage and being like, hi, I'm going to be a star. Like, look at me. I'm so proud of myself. Even if my belly was hanging out or my hair was a mess, I didn't care. I was in the pocket all the time.
• 8:21
  Even when I was pissed off and upset and having a temper tantrum, I was still in the pocket because I was in my fullest expression of myself. But then something happens. And for me, it was around middle school. For a lot of girls, that's around when it starts to happen. And even for boys, too, where you start to get conditioned to believe that all of that uniqueness that is you is stuff that you should hide.
• 8:43
  Because you start to feel like you need to do and say and be something in order to fit in with whoever it is, in order to get attention, in order to get love. And so I started removing all the in-the-pocket moments from myself and trying to just fit myself into what I thought everyone else needed me to be. And before I knew it, I woke up and I had no idea who the hell I was anymore. And I wasn't having those moments.
• 9:05
  And basically the whole beginning of the book is me trying to find out who real Jen is again and get back in the pocket. And I've got strategies to do that just in case you don't know who. You've lost that little book. You know, I went through all of them. And in the pocket moment, just as I asked you that question, Dawn, I mean, it's right here, right now when I have a microphone in front of me. This is where I'm the most relaxed, the most calm, and getting to meet beautiful souls like you. It's – I had –
• 9:34
  this is the best time. And when I was younger, it was terrible. So I have no question here, but I need to give you credit for one of the funniest social media descriptions of all times, the scroll hole. I love it. Is that something everybody says? I don't even know. I had died laughing and wrote that down. So that's just kudos to you.
• 9:56
  Thanks. Yeah, I find myself a scroll hole every day of my life. It's so easy. It's so easy to pick up the phone. And before you know it, you have sucked like 15 minutes out of your life. You're like, what just happened for the past 15 minutes? I just spent 15 minutes comparing myself to other people or looking at other people's lives. And now I feel like crap about myself. It's so normal.
• 10:15
  I'll train audiences with you right now. You read mine. I don't know what's wrong with my Instagram right now, but it, it literally only shows me the negative comments. I have to click in and I see all the positive ones. It's like, I, like God is trying to test me to not respond and to be emotionally intelligent because I'm getting brutalized over the last month where people like you're doing steroids. You're doing steroids. I was like, wow. Wow.
• 10:39
  It's like, what if people care about what anybody does? But it doesn't bother me. I just keep going. Which is what we're going to talk about. Prior to your inaugural midday dance party, the selling crash on the stage and then success, what did you believe that the life lesson God was sending you? Because there was a lesson there.
• 10:57
  Yeah. So I think the listener needs to know this story. So I'll take it back to a little bit of the backstory. When my company started, my company was actually my husband's first. So I came in later on and my husband at the time was my boyfriend, Chris Winfield, and he was doing these events called Unfair Advantage Live. And they were events that connected entrepreneurs to the media. So he would invite like 100 entrepreneurs for three days and,
• 11:22
  And they would learn how to pitch themselves to the media and they would connect with other media professionals. It was a really awesome event. And I used to go and attend as his girlfriend and I would watch him on stage and I would just be in awe of him. And I'd be like, wow, I wish I could speak on stage like that, like that. I could do that. That would be amazing. And a lot of stuff happened. We're going to skip, but we ended up becoming business partners. I ended up totally dropping my very successful personal training business in order to partner up with him and create Super Connector Media. Did you drop it or did you sell it? I meant to ask you that.
• 11:52
  My personal training business, I just let it go. Wow. We sold our agency last summer, which, so we did have an acquisition, but my personal training business that I grew from just wanting to have that trainer shirt and working at the gym and cleaning up weights and building a really, a really profitable business for myself. I just decided, I was like, you know what? I'm going to let go of my clients. I'm going to move on and I'm going to go for it. And there's, there's a story behind that in the book. I'm not going to say it, but you, you.
• 12:19
  She who laughs, laughs, laughs, loudest. And she got the last laugh over, you know, we'll call it Reebok. Love it. It was such a good story, Jen. I love your book was phenomenal. And your face lights up on every cue of overcoming adversity. So kudos to you. I know you've read the book, The Gap and the Gain, and you are always in the gain. And I admire that about you. Thank you, my friend.
• 12:45
  Yeah, so Chris had this company in this event. We ended up becoming partners. So I ended up starting to do this event with him.
• 12:53
  And one of my, I think it was, it was either the first or the second time. I think it was the first time I did unfair advantage live with him. And I was so, I had imposter syndrome. Like you wouldn't believe here was my boyfriend who was a professional speaker. It was his event. He was the face of the company. He's running this thing. And here I am like, who is this girl? Like coming up on stage behind him. I remember I stood like, you look at any of the photos from that event. I would stand like four or five feet behind him. And I would only talk if I felt like I had a reason to talk. I was so nervous.
• 13:23
  And there was a point in the event where he was going to sell his back-end offer. And I volunteered to be the person to make the pitch and make the offer from stage. And at that time, I didn't know that it was an actual skill to be able to sell from stage, which it is a skill that you need to learn how to do. And people study this skill of pitching from stage for years and years and years. And there are experts that are amazing at this very difficult thing to do.
• 13:48
  And I was like, how hard can it be? I'll just read the slides and I'll just sell the damn thing. It's no big deal. I got it. So I didn't prepare. I didn't practice. I've got these slides. I don't even think I read them. And I go on stage and I start doing this pitch. When I tell you I shit the bed, like,
• 14:08
  You know when a comedian's bombing and everyone feels really uncomfortable in the room and like no one knows what to do? Everyone was frozen. I tripped over my heel. I couldn't read what was on the screen. I said the price wrong. I didn't even know what the offer was. I was just not prepared. What a lesson in preparation, by the way. But anyways, so I do a terrible job. And at the end of the pitch...
• 14:29
  The whole thing was that we were going to have these gift bags on stage and you say to the audience, okay, everyone that wants to sign up for the program, come on stage and grab your gift bag. And what we envisioned was everybody coming on stage or lots of people rushing stage, grabbing their gift bags, so excited to join. Everyone needs to know that the whole point of this event, like the only way that Chris was making money on this event was if he sold stuff, like if he sold this program. So everything was riding on this. I'm like, all right, everyone come up and get your gift bag.
• 14:59
  Nobody moved. No one. No one moved. And I'm standing up there and I'm like, oh my God. I look at Chris. He's like, his face is frozen. All of our team members are like, oh my God. One of my team members comes on stage and she goes...
• 15:13
  Please sign up. It was more fine. So I'm in tears. I go back into the green room and everybody else goes to lunch. And I'm sitting there thinking, I'm like, Jen, you need to either leave and never come back or you need to do something to shift your energy right now.
• 15:30
  Because you can't go back on stage like this. This is, it was probably one of the most mortifying moments of my life because everything that I thought to be true, I'm not good enough, imposter syndrome, all of it was actually manifested. It was there. Like I am not good enough. Like this is terrible. So I knew the only thing that I could possibly do to get back to me.
• 15:51
  was to dance. And so at that time, these events had no dancing, no music. If you go on Instagram and you look at our events now, everybody dances all the time. It's become part of our ethos. But then no one danced. It was like a regular business conference. But there was a guy that was playing music in the back of the room. So after lunch, I go up to the guy and I'm like, when we come back from lunch, I want you to play this one song and I want you to play it really loud and I want you to play it all the way through. And he looked at me because I was the one that just bombed on stage. And he was like, really? Like he was like, okay, okay.
• 16:20
  All right, rolls his eyes. And I'm like, okay, cue the music. And he starts playing this song. And I just grabbed the mic. I'm like, I have nothing to lose. And I'm like, all right, everybody get on your feet. And I make every, and I start dancing. And I just like, I'm like, come on, come on, come on. And everybody in the room starts dancing. People are dancing on the tables. They're dancing on the chairs. They bum rush the stage. The whole energy of the entire room ships. And everyone is having the time of their life, including me.
• 16:47
  And all of a sudden I went from the girl who was petrified to be in front of my boyfriend, who didn't think she was good enough to being in the pocket and doing the thing that I knew that I did best, which was dancing and getting an energy in the crowd and making everybody feel seen and make everybody feel special.
• 17:03
  And after that dance party, the whole energy of the event shifted. We ended up making over seven figures in that event. We brought back the crowd. And now every event that we do, one of our famous things, whether it's on Zoom or in person, is our after lunch dance party. And it birthed a thing that we do. It's part of our super connector vibe. And it's what makes us special. But the lesson, the lesson was you're going to mess up.
• 17:30
  especially if you're not prepared, you're going to mess up. And so I did, after that, promise myself that I was going to become one of the best salespeople from stage that there is in the world. And I believe that I did that because I was never going to go back up there and fail ever again. However, the real lesson, like you can mess up, you can fail. It's how you come back from it. It's how resilient you are. And it's how can you...
• 17:50
  Come back and get in the pocket. Do what you do best. Because whenever you do what you do best and you bring your uniqueness to any situation, you will save the day. Because the only thing that makes you different and makes you stand out from everybody else and makes people want to truly connect with you is the stuff that only you possess, is the realness, the vulnerability. And so when I got up on that stage and I danced after failing, everybody was bought in again. And everybody was having fun. And so was I.
• 18:19
  Well, you picked the best song in the world. Was it Justin Timberlake's I Got a Feeling? How could you not be happy to that song? Isn't it from Shrek or something? You can't help, but it's such a good thing.
• 18:33
  You can't help but be happy with Justin Timberlake. So great song choice and great story. And, you know, I'm so stubborn. I learn everything the hard way. So I would have learned it just the same way. And I would have sat there and been like, okay, we're going to freaking do that. That's why I like you. That's why we get along. We are very similar. It's like, I'm not going down like this. We're going swinging. That's great. You have said confidence is the stuff that turns thoughts into actions.
• 19:04
  said, when you love yourself as much as you care about what other people think, you will change your life. Where did this resiliency come from, Jen? Yeah, well, it came from, as much as I'd like to tell you that, yeah, I was just naturally resilient. I think my resiliency and my confidence really has come from me training myself and practicing resiliency and confidence. I truly believe that we get good at what we practice. And I am a student of personal development.
• 19:34
  And I wasn't for a very long time. And I had no discipline. And I read no books. I listened to no podcasts for a very long time. And I had no desire to grow at all. But when my back was against the wall and I lost everything and I found myself in that tiny little room with a window that faced a wall and I had absolutely nothing left in me and I had no choice but to shift or to sit in the shit, literally, like I had to change myself.
• 20:01
  My first, I don't even know if this story is in the book, but this is actually a really great story to tell because it has to do with the book. So when I was in that really, really dark moment, oh, I think the story is in the book. And I was completely depressed. My mom had to come into the city and take care of it. I have a question. I have a question on that.
• 20:18
  Okay. All right. Do you want me to finish the story? You want to ask the question first? Not yet, because I'm going to ask you about that. So that's cool. The difference between us is you had two parents. I mean, yes, they split up at a pivotal time in your life, but I didn't have any parents, and I had to figure this all out myself. So when I hear parents stepping in at an opportune times and doing the things that Al, and I don't think you said your mom's name, but it just choked me up. I love it. I love hearing that. So...
• 20:47
  Early on in the book, you recommend writing a note from your real self to your present self. I liken it to some inner child work, but not trying to get too deep. My question is simple. What if you haven't met your real self yet? Yeah.
• 21:01
  So wait, I'm going to tie that answer in to the story that I was just telling because I think that they combine. Okay. Thank you. So they totally do because I want to finish this one. My mom came into the city to take care of me and she took me to this Italian restaurant and I'm hysterically crying and she goes to pay the bill and she pulls out this book. And my mom was very into personal development at the time, or she still is. My mom's a Reiki master and a yoga teacher. So she's like very into that stuff and I was not. And she gives me this book and it's called You Can Heal Your Life by Louise Haye.
• 21:29
  And it's a book full of affirmations and saying like positive affirmations about different things in your life that could help you. And my mom knew that I was not going to read this book. So she photocopied one of the affirmations. And on the back of the photocopy, it said, Jenny, I hope you find yourself again.
• 21:45
  And I go home, I look at this affirmation and I'm like, you know what? I'm not going to read this book, but I'll read this stupid affirmation. And I was so like, I was like, I've got nothing to lose. I'll read this every day. And I put it on my refrigerator. And the one commitment that I made to myself was I was going to read this affirmation out loud every single morning. Now, I don't know if it was the affirmation itself and what it did to my subconscious mind, or if it was just the fact that.
• 22:12
  that I was sticking to a commitment that I made with myself every day. And I was practicing consistency and practicing discipline and practicing doing something that was good for myself every single day and practicing the resiliency of waking up every morning, getting to that refrigerator and reading that affirmation.
• 22:28
  But practicing that resiliency showed me that I could stick to the commitments I made with myself. It made me more confident every single day, which slowly got me to get outside of my apartment and start getting out there and building my business and start creating the life that I've actually created now. And I'm going to get to the letter, but I need to tell you this crazy story. So skip to when I was getting this book published and I was finding a publisher for this book and I was pitching it to all the major publishers with my agent. And a lot of publishers were just crazy.
• 22:56
  not saying yes, I was getting rejected, it wasn't working out. And I was like, man, I was starting to feel like this book wasn't gonna find a home. And the very last publisher that we had a meeting with on the calendar was Hay House.
• 23:09
  This is Louise Hay's publishing company, which is Louise Hay, who wrote. Oh, I didn't put that together. Louise Hay is no longer with us. She passed away, but her publishing house, Hay House, is probably the biggest personal development publishing house that there is. And I get on this call with them. And all of a sudden I think about this story and this affirmation and how it was the pivotal thing that started to change my life. And everyone's crying. And we're like, oh, my gosh, of course, Hay House needs to publish this book.
• 23:36
  So that is how the book came to be, another dot connecting moment. You talked about writing the letter and tapping back into real you. And you asked me, what if you don't know who real you is?
• 23:48
  And there's an acronym in the book that I use often called setting the scene to be able to tap into real Jen, tap into real Kelly, real, you know, insert your name, whoever's listening to this right now, because we've all had that moment when we were in the pocket when we were kids, or maybe it wasn't when you were a kid. Maybe it was when you married your partner. Maybe it was when you ran a marathon. Maybe it was when you were speaking on stage or recording your first podcast. When you felt so in flow, like in the pocket, what we were talking about earlier, that
• 24:17
  I want you to go for a walk. I call them wonder walks. Love it. Go for a walk outside. Put on some music that will make you... You could do music. You could do any kind of sense memory. So I learned this as an actor with method acting. Sometimes you'll use senses to bring back memories of times where you felt a certain way so you could bring up that emotion. So for me...
• 24:35
  I love to listen to music that I would listen to when I was in the pocket. So I would listen to Annie or Michael Jackson or a wizard of Oz or a little mermaid. Those music, that music that I would listen to when I was a little girl and I was just so free and full and so authentically real Jen.
• 24:53
  And I'll listen to that music and I'll go for a walk outside and I'll start to embody what real Jen would feel like when she would listen to that music. And it will bring back all those feelings and emotions. And then I'll ask myself, like, okay, how would that little girl respond to this situation? What would she want? What choice would she make here? And that's a really easy way. And if you don't want to do it with a song or music, you could do it with a scent. You could do it with taste. Yeah.
• 25:17
  like the exact type of cake that you ate at your wedding, or maybe the scent that your mom used to wear when she would take you on like long walks when you guys were kids and you loved that so much. Or maybe it's a photo of when you were little of you and somebody that you absolutely loved spending time with. Or maybe it's a video of you when you were a kid or maybe a video of your wedding or a video of when you, um, when you gave birth to your kid in the hospital, I don't know, whatever moment is special to you where you felt so in the pocket and,
• 25:43
  bring back that memory and then start to navigate the world as that person, that's usually real you.
• 25:50
  I think I'm in the pocket right now with you because your authenticity and genuine and your humility just comes right through. And I, I love everything about it. You guys are getting a blueprint on a masterclass on how to, on resiliency and just, you know, she didn't just win a quiz show and come who she is. She worked her, took us off for it. So what's the bad-ass list and how does everybody poops fit in? Yeah. Yeah.
• 26:17
  I promise I didn't write the whole book down. There is so much more, but just some of these things. Great job. This is great. I honestly, this is amazing. I'm so grateful that you love the book. And you love it. It's not even, it's, it just, I couldn't put it down all weekend long. And I'm talking on the phone. So thank you. It's the least I could do for you.
• 26:38
  Well, the badass list, there's an entire chapter about it. And the badass list is my answer to imposter syndrome. And I get imposter syndrome today, to this day. And I tell everybody that asks me, like, how do I get over imposter syndrome? And I have not figured out how to get over it. And I've asked a lot of really successful people that I've met, does imposter syndrome and fear ever go away? And they all say to me, no, Jen, it doesn't go away. You just get better at doing things with it there anyway.
• 27:07
  And my badass list is something that I use to take action even when I'm feeling like an imposter. So I'm never going to say it's going to make it go away, but it's a tool you can use to be able to take action and be more courageous. And so the badass list was born. I won't tell the story of how it was born because it's in the book. Just tell me what it is.
• 27:25
  Yeah, what it is, it's anytime you're feeling like an imposter or like you're not good enough or you're not worthy to be in a certain situation or do something or maybe you feel like everyone's going to find out that I don't really know what I'm doing. I shouldn't be here. It's usually because you've spent a little bit too much time looking at other people's accomplishments and other people's achievements. And.
• 27:45
  thinking that everybody else has it all going on. Cause you're looking at their highlight reel and you forget how worthy and how amazing you are. Because often the things that we've done, our accomplishments, our bad-ass moments are so close to us that they don't feel cool and special.
• 27:58
  So sometimes we need to look at ourselves from the outside as somebody else would look at us. And what I've done is I have a list in my phone and I've taught thousands and thousands of people to do this. And it has helped a lot of people and it has even saved a few people's lives. And I will go as far to say that there's a story about Brenda in the book. I didn't steal. That's the one I left. It was so good, but I just left it alone because you've got to buy the book, people. Brenda's story is phenomenal.
• 28:23
  So I want you, everyone that's listening, take out your phone and I want you to write a list of all the moments in your life when you felt like a badass.
• 28:31
  And if you don't like the word badass, that's fine. When you felt amazing, when you felt like you were doing something super cool, maybe it was when you overcame an illness. Maybe it was when your daughter was born. Maybe it was when you walked down the aisle to your partner. Maybe it was just when you made your first sale in your side hustle. And you were like, wow, I just made some money. Or when you got your job or when you quit your job. Write down all of those moments.
• 28:55
  And then whenever you're feeling like an imposter, your job is to pull out that list and read that list out loud. But read it as if you're reading about somebody else. Like somebody that you're FOMOing over on the internet. Somebody that you're down to scroll hole with and you're just thinking that they're awesome and you're not. And I want you to read it out loud and then ask yourself, is this person worthy of doing the thing that I'm afraid to do right now? I would guarantee that you will say, yes, this person's awesome. This person's a badass.
• 29:25
  And then I want you to remember that that person is you. And walk into any situation looking at yourself from a distance and remembering who you are. And that if you've achieved all of those things, it means that wherever you're at in your life, you're supposed to be there. And you're going to step up to the plate. You're going to walk into it like you own it and like you should be there.
• 29:44
  You're such a badass. I can't believe that the best speaker on the planet gets FOMO, gets nervous, gets thinking that you, anything negative. But I get it. I understand. I'm going to switch gears for just a second because I love your love story because it wasn't easy. Chris proposed to you at your favorite place. I might have missed it, but where was it? I couldn't find that in the book.
• 30:10
  I don't think I talked about the proposal. I think I just put that on my badass list. It was at this resort in Mexico that we would go to every single year called Nizu in Cancun.
• 30:19
  I had a timeshare in Cancun for 20 years. That's such a fun place. I can only imagine. I got some more from him later in the show. You'll like, he's a good, he's amazing. And you two are amazing together. And I love love. And eventually this is really a love story is what you have. And I love love. I had Tim's story on Friday and he says, everything is with love. He leads with love with everything. And that's kind of weird.
• 30:46
  why I think you enjoyed your mom bringing you that book. She just gave you so much love. I did everything with no love. Like, there's love, and then there's no love, and then there's zero love. I had less than love. But I love myself ridiculous now. And it took a lot of violent work to do that. But...
• 31:02
  Um, everybody ends up where they're supposed to be. And that's what the, what's makes life so awesome. I should have started with your list of nine standards you made for dating after hedge fund, Rob guy, and you were killing it in the fitness industry. Two of them stuck out to me tattoos and doesn't drink alcohol. Will you explain for the girls that are listening? What, why were those two important to you?
• 31:27
  I'll tell you why. I mean, no, I can tell you why about the alcohol thing. But this is what's really important to know about the list. Because a lot of women make lists. And I used to make, I made lists my whole life. This is so good. Everybody listen because she is brilliant. And I'm in Michigan right now. I have a house in Michigan and Florida. People in Michigan don't know how to date. It's all whacked up. So please, everybody stop and listen to what Jen's going to say. Because she dated all the, what do you call them, narcissists, douchebags, dweebs,
• 31:54
  She's in New York City, people, so she dealt with a lot of interesting folks and made a list, and she's about to tell you about it. So here comes the master class. I will not interrupt.
• 32:05
  Okay, so I made a lot of lists throughout my time dating and all of my lists pretty much look the same because they were lists of what I thought everyone in my family or in my life wanted me to find in a man. It was more of like a should list than what I really wanted list. So I think I have a feeling and I have a lot of girlfriends and guy friends who make lists of their dream significant other and it's not really what they want.
• 32:28
  It's what their parents see for them. It's what everybody else in the world sees for them. It's what they think would look good on paper. So they make a list that looks really fancy and amazing on paper, but that's not what would really make them happy. It's what made everybody else happy. So I have a list like that. And I finally have the courage to crumple up that list and ask myself what I would have if I could really, like if I really was the happiest in my most fulfilled version of me with someone that loved me for exactly who I am, what would this person have?
• 32:58
  And weird stuff came out like that. Like he has tattoos. I don't know. I just, somebody that likes to break rules. I like that because I don't really like to break rules. So I think it would be fun if I had a boyfriend or a husband that like just had tattoos. Like, I don't know why that came to me. But doesn't drink. This was a big issue for me for a long time because I don't drink.
• 33:19
  And all of my friends and family would say to me, Jen, that's weird. When you're dating, you should just have a glass of wine. Because if you say you don't drink, people are going to think there's something wrong with you. So just suck it up and have some alcohol. And people say this to me all the time because they really wanted me to meet someone. They're like, maybe it's because you don't drink. You should just order a glass and have a sip. And I would say to them, you want to know something? The person that is my person is
• 33:45
  They don't drink or they don't give a shit that I don't drink. They're totally cool with that. So the person that is annoyed or weirded out, the fact that I don't drink, that's clearly not my person. So it was on my list that he didn't drink. I also had on my list that he was previously married and had a child from a previous marriage.
• 34:02
  Now that was hard for me to write down because I would bet that like people in my family or in my life would be like, Oh Jen, don't you want to just start something new with somebody? And forever I thought that that was what I was supposed to want. But when I really thought about it, I was like, how cool would it be for me to be with someone that already knew how to have a real relationship and already knew like how to love another human. And I don't know if I want kids. So how cool would that be if my guy came with a kid? And so I wrote that down.
• 34:30
  And it's really wild when you get really in alignment with what you really want and not what everybody else wants for you, but what you really want. And you start walking around the planet, expecting what you really want to come to you and you do activities and you do things and you take action in the way of who you really are. You will attract exactly what you are and what you desire because you're doing things that align with all of that. And that brought a,
• 34:57
  a person into my life that had all those qualities, a beautiful daughter, tattoos, doesn't drink alcohol, lives on the Upper West Side, works out at Equinox. Like I was very clear, six feet tall, entrepreneur, really into personal development and personal growth. And it wasn't that he just magically appeared because they envisioned him. I believe that I made myself very ready to receive him. And I subconsciously retrained my subconscious mind
• 35:27
  to be subconsciously looking for him every single day and expecting him and putting myself in positions where someone like him would be there. So for instance, showing up at that gym and walking in and knowing that he was there and being open to connecting with somebody because he was known as the super connector. And my word of the year was connection. And I knew that I needed to start connecting with people and getting myself to that bench on Central Park and taking a walk with somebody that I didn't even know because I was like,
• 35:52
  I was open to receiving newness and meeting people that were into the same stuff as me. It wasn't a coincidence. It wasn't because I envisioned it and it magically appeared. I was preparing and getting myself ready for him for a really long time. That's beautifully said. And I always say there are no coincidences. I want to dig a little bit deeper. Wait, hold on. Her name is, his daughter's name is Vivian, right? Yeah. How old is she? She's 14. I, I, oh.
• 36:20
  Yeah. Oh, your daughter's fortunate. Yeah. I noticed, I didn't put it anyway in here, but the part somewhere in your book, you said the first time she told you she loved that she loved you and it, what it meant. And this is a love story. It's so cute. And,
• 36:36
  It warms my heart. I want to dig a little bit deeper into the not drinking just for just a second because that's where my whole life changed. I used to be a partier. Why didn't you drink? I want people to hear this because here in Michigan, people are dating. And I've...
• 36:52
  had to be a break up with women because they, I don't drink. And I'm like, I did the same thing you do. And it's called standards. And I don't need to explain to somebody why I don't drink. There's no great story. I just didn't want to drink anymore. And I quit. Why'd you quit? Or why'd you not drink? Is it because of the fitness? I started to notice that I,
• 37:13
  Like I started getting really into personal development and I started my business and I started really getting addicted to accomplishing and achieving and how great it felt when I would make other people feel great and how great it felt when I would get up at six in the morning and train all my clients and feel very accomplished and like make my own money and go to bed and wake up feeling amazing. And that was all, that was giving me this amazing high. And I got so addicted to this healthy lifestyle. And then I would go on the weekends and I would have a drink and I would feel like shit the next day.
• 37:40
  And I would, my half of my day would be gone because I would feel sad. I would feel depressed. I wouldn't get out of bed. I was like, this is not worth it. What could happen if I went out and I just didn't drink? Let's see what could happen. And so I started doing that. And I realized that when I went out and didn't drink,
• 37:56
  I had just as much fun, if not more, when I was not drinking. And I realized that when everybody around me was drinking and I wasn't, everybody around me was saying things that were really stupid. And I was like, I probably sound like that when I drink. And so it just wasn't worth it to me. The risk reward, I wasn't able to accomplish my dreams and get my life to where I wanted it to be if I kept drinking because it was just going to keep taking time away from me because it would take an entire day away from me.
• 38:22
  And I love the feeling of being healthy and being energized and being vibrant much more than the feeling of being hungover. And being hungover is not worth 20 minutes of feeling tipsy to me. And the act of going out and not drinking and being able to just be myself without any other like, you know, clutches or whatever, crutches, I always say clutch like a purse, it's a crutch, to be able to be social with people like that helped me be a better person
• 38:48
  communicator. It helped me become more confident because I didn't need that anymore to be in social situations. It's a true power. It's a true power. And it also, if it's uncomfortable, then you know, it's a red flag of something you have to work on for personal development. So I go, I was at a wedding on Friday, 420 people. And I was walking around with a soda, water and a lemon. And everyone's like, Oh, you get, you allow yourself to drink at weddings. I go, no, no.
• 39:13
  I don't negotiate with myself. This is soda water. I got to tell you that your skin, if you guys are watching this on iTunes or Spotify or listening to iTunes and Spotify, go over to YouTube and look how beautiful she is. Her skin is one tone perfectly. When I used to drink, I was blotchy and I hated the person I was wearing. You are stunningly beautiful.
• 39:33
  Keep doing what you're doing. You're winning. I want to continue down this dating, so to speak, because my 14 year old daughter, she's just told me I drive her to school this morning. Dad, Noah just asked me to homecoming. I said, how big is Noah's dad? She goes, don't. It's so cute. We have such a great relationship since I had that 14 year old daughter. Explain the pick me energy.
• 40:00
  And remind me to tell you, I call it lambs, lambs, L A M B. And I'll tell you what it means after you tell me about the energy. Yeah. Vivian said to me, pick me energy. I was like, Oh my God, I was such a pick me for so long. And, and if I'm not going to say ladies, anybody listening to this, you know, you've done this before. Like we all slip into it. I've done it so many times where you really, and this is when I was dating, like I really wanted to meet someone. I really wanted to find love.
• 40:30
  But again, my list was wrong. This was before I got the list right. The list was wrong. And I was going out with all the wrong guys. And I would go out with these guys and I would just completely do what I did when I was in middle school. And I would be like, all right, I'm going to be whoever you need me to be so that you can pick me. And all of a sudden I had this desperate energy like, you like football? Sure, I like football.
• 40:48
  You like going out and partying? Sure, I like going out and partying, right? Like, and none of that is true to who I am. But I was so in fear that I wasn't gonna meet someone. And I was so desperate that I would just be whoever that person or whatever I thought that person wanted me to be. Like, please pick me, please pick me. And in business, in life, in dating, desperate energy repels people. Stop right there. Say that again. That is, especially in sales. Say it one more time so everybody hears it.
• 41:17
  Desperate energy repels people.
• 41:20
  Just think about having a conversation with someone where they're desperately wanting you to like them or they're desperately wanting you to do something where they need something from you. You want to run the other direction. But if you see someone that's just living their best life and they've got a lot going on and they're super happy and they're just crushing it and they're like, yeah, I'm just crushing it. You want what that person's doing. Like you want to be involved. And it's just that's how it works.
• 41:50
  I started doing, and so I started the practice of visualizing and talking to my man as if he was there. And I spent every single morning for months, probably a full year, talking to this imaginary guy that was my six-foot-tall entrepreneur, into personal development, had tattoos, had a kid, like that guy that I envisioned. Yeah. I would wake up and say, and I would...
• 42:10
  Talk to him. Yeah, basically. I didn't know his name was Chris. Unbelievable. He checks every one of them. How many dates did you think you went on before you, and by the way, it's in the book, but it's quick she says it. The person that introduced you to Chris was somebody you dated. His next boyfriend. A hundred percent. Love it. Yeah. He was the person that cheated on me. Oh, he cheated too? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I thought you'd on him. And you know what? That's the desperate, that's the pick me energy.
• 42:37
  That's what happens. You pick somebody who doesn't love themselves because you don't love yourself. And like attracts like. We can go on forever. I'll have you on again. And we'll talk about just life. Because this book is just so good. I want everybody to hear. You keep looking at somebody. Is it a female producer or a male producer? I don't have a producer. I have two monitors on the left. Okay. I just wanted to make sure. When I'm bigger, I look at the left monitor because you're very small in my camera right now. But at the left monitor, you're huge. So I like looking over the screen.
• 43:07
  I'm going to tell you what LAM stands for. Look at me, bitches.
• 43:12
  That's really good. Yeah. So I have to go back to how that talking to him really helped me to get over my pick me energy. So everyone that's listening that has that or the lamb, the look at me bitches, like you're just needing the attention. You're needing everybody to look at you and see you. When I would make a relationship with this fake person, I legitimately started to feel like I knew this guy. He was not real. He didn't exist in my life, but I pretended that he did. And so when I would go on bad dates or dates with guys that clearly were not my guy, I would say,
• 43:41
  Would you stick it all the way through the date or when you knew it was done, would you just leave?
• 43:46
  I've left dates within three minutes time. I have. And that was when I got really advanced in my dating situation. And I really knew my guy that I was talking to. I was like, you're not him. I talk to him every day. I don't even care. It's not you. And I wouldn't say it like that. I would be like, hey, I really don't want to waste your time. I just know this isn't a fit. I know how valuable your time is. So I'm going to go. But it was really great meeting you. And I wish you all the best. And that would, people would lose their minds. Because I don't think any, I don't think many people have the balls to do that.
• 44:16
  Yeah. Oh, great. They want drinks, tequila. I'm out. See ya. I told you I don't drink. I'm good.
• 44:23
  Oh, thanks. Yeah. No, it's not a fit. And because I knew in my heart that my guy was out there, because I believed it so fully because I would talk to him all the time. I didn't feel desperation, like needing somebody to like me or to take me out because I was like, I'll just go home and and visualize my guy like I know he's out there. And I tricked my subconscious to believing that. So I didn't need anything from anybody else. I had it within myself.
• 44:46
  And I always, always remember like, or I try to remind myself and remind everybody that I talk to that you'll get everything that you want when you know you already have it inside of you. God, I love you. You're so good. But if you think about it, let's get real. You can actually make yourself feel physical emotions by using your brain. Absolutely. Dr. Joe Dispenza, you mentioned in the book, Dr. Joe says that fire and wire together. You feel it.
• 45:15
  Yeah, you can have an orgasm in your sleep without touching yourself. That is, you can actually, everybody, not to go and talk about sex, but you can. So you can actually, that's what always reminds me that your brain can make you feel emotions. So if you feel like someone there loving you and you love yourself so fully, yes, you're going to want love from someone else. It's not going to take away the desire. Yes, we want connection. But you can afford to wait for that person because you love yourself enough that you don't need another person to come in and see you because you see yourself.
• 45:46
  Jen, you're amazing. The Linda story is absolutely bananas. I believe the moral of the story is never give up. But can you explain to me how you got the part, even though you originally lost it to Nika? It was confusing because I was reading it on the phone. But will you clear it up for me? Because you went back and barged in and got just just a quick overview.
• 46:06
  Because I love the resilience. You didn't get it. You were a first runner up. And then you went and barged into another show where the director was. And he ultimately got it. But I didn't understand it. It was confusing to me. Yeah. No, it's good that you cleared that up that it was confusing. Because I think it is kind of a confusing story. Because it was a confusing time. And it was a long time. If you think about that experience, it was probably years in the beginning.
• 46:31
  And my first audition that I ever went to in New York City, I was a musical theater student in New York. And I went and I auditioned for my dream role, which was in The Wedding Singer, the Adam Sandler and Drew Barrymore musical. And I wanted to be the character of Linda, which is the bitch that leaves Robbie Hart at the altar in the movie. And...
• 46:51
  I connected to that role. Like it was like, God came down and told me that I needed to play this part. And so I had spent months visualizing myself playing the role, practicing it. Just like I would talk to my fake guy. I would, this was before that, but I would visualize myself playing Linda every single night before I went to bed. I would see the costume on my body and see the lights in the audience and
• 47:10
  and really feel it. And so that I believe that when the audition arrived, I was like, here we go. I'm ready. This is already mine. This is my part of practices in my mind, 85,000 times. So I went to this audition and it was my first audition ever in New York. And I made it to the final two.
• 47:25
  And I didn't get the part. Nika got the part. And so, but here's the thing, because I had believed so fully that this was mine, I was like, all right, I just got to do some really creative shit to make this part happen for me because this is just not right now. That's it. It's not a no, it's not right now. And so I went along my merry way, but I was subconsciously looking for opportunities to be able to make this happen for me.
• 47:49
  And I found out that the director that was directing the wedding singer was auditioning a different show. So the show Footloose, another movie turned musical. And I was like, Oh, I got to get in front of that director. I got to sing for him again. I got to let him know how badly I want this. So
• 48:05
  I snuck into the footloose audition and I wore my Linda costume that I made and I sang the Linda music at the footloose audition. This is a no doubt. It's not a thing that you should do. Uh, FYI. And, uh, and I did it taking a big risk and a big bet on myself. Uh, and the director came out and he, he looked at me and he's like, here's my card. We're not casting wedding singer right now.
• 48:32
  But when we do, I want you to call me. And so this is where I learned the power of the follow-up in business, in life. Because I followed up with that guy every single week for like six months. And I didn't spot. I was persistent emailing him, emailing him, emailing him. I had nothing to say to him. I was sending him pictures of my dog. Go ahead. So here's where I get confused. Nico got the part, but then he said he wasn't casting for the part. Do we have the time frame wrong? It just wasn't. It was confusing. Yeah.
• 48:58
  Yeah, he was doing a different version of the Broadway National Tour of The Wedding Singer. So there was going to be another one that was going to come out after that first one. Okay. So he was going to be doing that. Yeah. So he was going to be doing that Wedding Singer and he was not casting it yet. I call it the drip campaign. You did it well. And I'm not surprised by you.
• 49:19
  Yeah, I just wanted to let him know that I was available and I was really good. And so he brought me back in and I auditioned a million times again and I got the understudy. Don't ever tell Jen no, I can tell you that much. Don't ever say no. But it's just funny, my next question is, no is your new best friend. Start before you're ready and help one person every day or just three of the Jenisms. What's your favorite? Hmm.
• 49:46
  My favorite for being seen is help one person every day. I love that. I remember that from when I met you, by the way. I wrote that down. I use it. I use it every day. Like I use that acronym. Because every day I go live on Instagram and I put my makeup on every morning.
• 50:01
  Every morning, no matter what. I've joined it. I love it. It's courageous. That was the question I asked you when I met you in New York. I said, how do you feel? And you're like, oh, my God, I'm so scared. And I could just tell that you were leaning into something. You wanted to be seen as authentic and genuine, and you are. I've listened, and there's some great stuff that happens in there, and I'm proud of you. I love those times.
• 50:24
  Thank you, my friend. Yeah. I mean, I don't want to do it. I just think about hope. Like I think about the one person. Every time I do it, I get a message from someone that was like, thank you for answering my question. That helped me so much. And so every time I think like, oh, I don't want to do this today, I understand and I know that it's about me. Like I'm focusing on myself. Like I don't feel like it. I feel I'm scared of what people will think of me today. I don't feel like I have the energy. But when I focus on that one person on the other side of the phone that I might be helping in that moment, like just help one person every day.
• 50:52
  It suddenly becomes easy and I don't worry about myself and I'm not self-conscious and I'm not insecure and my ego goes away. Maybe not all day, maybe not for that whole time, but at least for enough of time for me to get on there and help one person. And that's how I teach people how to be seen when they're petrified of judgment. It's not about you. It's about the person on the other side of whatever content you're creating that you can help that day.
• 51:14
  That's precisely why you will be not just the largest female personal development. You will be the largest one in the world because of that. And you were just, when you said to me, I was like, I love her. And now I believe it after reading this book. So guys run out and buy this book. It is worth it. It is a page turner. You're going to love it. We've got a couple more questions. We're going to wrap up. Original is a myth.
• 51:37
  Who was the one person that was one of your one of your things in your book? What who is one person from the field that you borrowed some of their work from? Oh, my gosh, everybody. So it's not borrowing their work. It's their work. No, I love that. Because if you think about it, in personal development, pretty much everything that everybody says is the same stuff, just said in a different way.
• 52:00
  And anybody that's saying that it's not is like they know that it is like it is. But here's the cool thing about it. Nothing is completely original. Everything is based on something else. But we can put our own stories and our own twists on it. And some people out there need to hear it just from Kelly and the way that Kelly can say it because they only resonate with Kelly. And they only resonate with Kelly's story.
• 52:20
  Some people like I can talk about confidence and my story about the badass list and Brenda is a story that's only unique to me. But somebody else could go out there and talk about writing a list of all of the moments that you felt spectacular and reading it out loud. That's a tool that maybe somebody else did. I mean, I didn't take that from anybody else, but somebody else could take it from me and they could use their own story and make it unique. And then they've created something that is unique to them. And that's OK.
• 52:43
  And so I am a student of personal development and I would not be sitting here right now if it wasn't for people like Oprah and Gabby Bernstein, who wrote the forward to my book and Lori Harder and Lewis Howes and all of these people that I've learned so much from and Ed Milet, who I just got to hang out with and
• 53:01
  and record his podcast with. And they've taught me so much, but what's happened is I used their teachings to go implement those teachings into my life and have all of these experiences where then I took those experiences and used them to help and inspire other people. Cause I'm like, look, I'm a student of this shit. This shit works. And I'm going to share with you my stories of how it worked and my take on it. And I'm going to build upon it and share with you how you can then implement it into your life
• 53:27
  in maybe a way that's easier for you to understand than if somebody else explained it in a different way. I love you. You just said this shit works.
• 53:38
  Bam, microphone drop, end it right there. You're so right, it does. I embody all of everything you said and I love it. If you don't like the road you're walking, start paving a new one. Dolly Parton said that, it was in your book. Time never stops. Discomfort is temporary, but growth on the other side of your discomfort is permanent. Jen Gottlieb, you are a gem and I wanted to say, who is luckier than us?
• 54:00
  Oh, just so you know, everybody in the listeners know that's in the book. That's what Chris said to her when he first walked up. I say that all the time.
• 54:12
  who's lucky on us all the time. It's unbelievable. It's the synergies because it is where it were. And you create your own luck in this world by making good choices, solid choices, you know, and everything is a choice. Getting up in the morning, I get up at 4.15 every morning, go to the gym, I choose not to drink. It's a lot of saying no's like you said. Everything in your book just resonated with me and I'm gonna have my daughter read it from cover to cover and put it up on the bookshelf. She's an avid reader.
• 54:40
  You know, she's 14 years old and she doesn't care. She's not into drinking. She's not into drugs. She gets still does a little bit of too much of the scroll hole stuff. But, you know, and she just I keep teaching her. You can get everything you need from within. You have everything inside of you that you require. So it's everything that you talk about. Is there anything I didn't cover that you would like to share?
• 55:04
  You covered it all. You are so good. I have not done an interview yet where somebody went that deep into the book, and I'm just so grateful. I feel so grateful that you really dived in and you really read it and you loved it. That makes me so thrilled because you never know.
• 55:20
  I'm going to read it again when I have an actual book because it was hard. I'm not kidding you. I would never, ever lie to you or anybody. Honesty and Integrity is a big core value of mine. If I didn't like it, I would say it, but I couldn't put it down.
• 55:35
  and my eyes were getting sore. It's that good. And we only scratched the surface. I grabbed the stuff that resonated with me and my 14-year-old daughter. So I highly recommend, I don't know what your demographic is, but resilience is for everybody. But if you're a girl and you're a teenage girl specifically, read this book today.
• 55:57
  And I'm going to have my daughter read it multiple times. And that's why I said I love the book. And I'm going to ask you for a signed copy for my daughter. Her name is Ariana. And then I wanted to ask you to come back next year after it's quiet and you're –
• 56:12
  Amazon bestselling Wall Street Journal bestselling New York Times bestselling because it's this book is going to be great. So I hope you're not nervous in any way, shape or form because it is phenomenal. And I read a lot of books. I read a book a week and yours I stuck in in two days. So I just want to have you back as a friendly chat. So that's all I got for you, my dear. Thank you so, so much. I just want to remind the listeners to wait. I'm going to ask you one last question. Do you have family in Long Island? Not anymore.
• 56:43
  My cousins, Joanne and Jeff Gottlieb, are in Long Island. Yeah, there's so many people. Yeah. No, it's not my family, but it would be cool if it was.
• 56:52
  Thank you so, so much. And I look forward to doing more and more with you. Please rate and share this podcast. Also, I'm doing my best to respond to all the comments on all social platforms. So if you want to see more of something or less of something, leave a comment. Each and every episode is sponsored by National Technology Management, the easiest and best IT company to do business with. Delivering peace of mind with technology every day. Visit TrustNTM.com for more. And until next week, be harder than life. Thank you, Jen. Thank you.
• 57:21
  Thank you for listening. Please rate and subscribe to Harder Than Life, and let's take this to the next level. Get connected at the links below.