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His Dream Through Me, Pt. 2: Seth Jensen · Sports In America with David Greene

• DAVID GREENE, HOST: Hey everybody, so just so you know, in this episode, we are going to touch on sensitive topics, including suicide. Previously, on Sports in America. [MUSIC] RYAN JENSEN: It was his dream to always play in the NFL, but you know, the game got taken from him because of his injuries. He started seeing, you know, his little brother has success, which as an older brother, he always talks to me about, you know, you wanna be kind of that leader and bring your siblings up with you. So I never felt any resentment. DG: When Ryan Jensen made it to the top of the NFL world, he immediately credited his older brother Seth as his inspiration and his main support. But what did Ryan's triumphant journey look like from Seth's perspective? [CROWD CHEERING] ANNOUNCER: The Tampa Bay Buccaneers have a second Super Bowl title in franchise history. SETH JENSEN: It all kinda came to a head. You know, after he had won the Super Bowl. ANNOUNCER: And the Buccaneer Nation will celebrate. And I want to hear cannons. The Buccaneers score late in the first half, early in the second half. And they're the cannons go. Fire them. Keep on firing them. [MUSIC] SJ: I told him, "With all of your success, I was jealous of you for years. I envied you. I was mad at you." And he looked at me, dumbfounded, he's like, "What are you talking about?" DG: In 2021, in the wake of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers' 31-9 thrashing of the Kansas City Chiefs in Super Bowl LV, from the stands, Seth Jensen watched his younger brother Ryan celebrating on the field with a potent mix of pride, wonder, and resentment. It probably didn't help that Ryan, the Buccs Pro Bowl center, was protecting quarterback Tom Brady, or that the GOAT lavished praise on his brother after they won the title. TOM BRADY: Just super proud of him and all that he's gone through this year. Says a lot about who he is and certainly a guy you can depend on and count on. DG: Fifteen years prior, it was older brother Seth who was breathlessly recruited by the top college programs, and Seth who let his little brother Ryan tag along to practice. He was the one who was supposed to win glory for his family and be the kind of brother that Ryan could look up to. But as Seth watched Ryan hoist the Lombardi trophy, it was painfully obvious that things had not gone the way he had planned. SJ: No one expected Ryan just because he wasn't that big during that time. He wasn't as big as I was, he wasn't as fast or strong as I was. Always had this notion, especially after all the scholarship offers, that, you know, I was gonna be the one that was gonna go. But life has a way of humbling you very quickly. [THEME MUSIC] DG: This is Sports in America. I'm David Greene. Last week, we spoke to retired Pro Bowl center Ryan Jensen about the inspiration he drew from his older brother Seth. Today, we're gonna hear what it was like for Seth watching his brother enjoy so much success. We're gonna explore all the complicated dynamics between siblings growing up in an athletic home, the rivalry, the support, the envy, and the true admiration, the deep desire to do your family proud, the shame, and often depression that can strike when life sets you on a different path than you had hoped. So often, we follow the stories of an athlete's inevitable rise from obscurity to a triumph on the big stage. But Seth Jensen's story is one of broken dreams, hitting rock bottom, and what comes after that. There's some dark and difficult chapters along the way. For Seth, ultimately, there was a kind of serenity, something like redemption. After the Super Bowl confetti was swept away and the dust settled a bit on Ryan's storied NFL career, what remained was an abiding, hard-won love between brothers. In the early days, though, Seth and Ryan they were riding bikes, they had nerfed gun battles, they had a pretty typical sibling dynamic. What was it like when you guys were both little? Like, paint a picture for me of what life was like when you guys were kids? SJ: So we were raised in a small farming community in Fort Morgan, Colorado. At the time, it was maybe fifteen, twenty thousand people in the community. So, you know, it's not super, super small. Like you know, it's not a town you drive by, and if you blinked, you missed it. DG: Yeah. SJ: But at that time, you know, Fort Morgan was Fort Morgan. I mean, we were constantly on the move doing something. Looking back at it now, it was near perfect. You know, we had our issues, you know, there's always problems. But in terms of how we were raised, I don't think I could have asked for a more better upbringing. You know, my parents worked their asses off day in and day out. Dad worked for Excel Energy in the gas fields and then would come home and run the Taekwondo studio. And me and Ryan were a part of that, you know, all our lives up until he sold it. And if it wasn't Taekwondo, it was, you know, us going to Greeley every, you know, every weekend for football games. And then we'd have our basketball games, you know, in you know, after football season was over with, straight into spring ball, straight into summer ball, right back into football. So it was really structured, but chaotic at the same time. DG: Remind me the the age difference between you and Ryan, how much older are you? SJ: My mom's probably gonna kill me. Three and a half years, I think? Close to that. About three and a half, yeah. DG: So, like, were you like peers or was it, were you like in big brother mode growing up, where you were like the mentor protector type? How, I feel like three and a half years is like one of those kind of in-between age gaps. SJ: Yeah. So it was kind of weird. You know, we did have a very close traditional brotherhood, you know, growing up. You know, me being the big brother, there was zero chance of anyone there messing with him just because of me and my friends. We were highly protective of our circle. Fortunately, I didn't really have to come to his rescue a whole lot just because he could hold his own. So what you saw on the football field, take that back 20 years, and that was him in school. You know, and then he got into his friend group, so it was you know, my job and my friend's job to not only protect him and his friends, but to also harass them at any point we possibly could have, you know. DG: (Laughs) I love that. So giving [EXPLETIVE] was a part of your... SJ: Oh yeah. Yeah, we'd haze him and you know, nothing over the top, but you know, it was it's sibling rivalry to a degree, you know, and then once he became started to get a little more athletic, you know, when we're hitting the twelve, thirteen, fourteen year old range, you know, that's when he really started to stand out. DG: As he reached adolescence, Ryan started to close the gap with Seth in terms of his size, speed, and athleticism. But there's no question who was the more highly regarded recruit in high school. [MUSIC] DG: Seth was like you were the one in the family with the big dreams, right? I mean, you were hoping to go to a big college program, play in the NFL? Tell me more about that. Like what what when was that starting, and what were you dreaming about? SJ: So I remember, and it's one of my one of like the core memories that I have. I was about 12, Ryan was about eight, and we were sitting on the living room floor and we were watching the Rockies play. And we got to BSing, and you know... DG: Baseball. SJ: Yeah. And I looked at Ryan, and I was like, "Okay, here's the plan. I'm gonna make it in the NFL. You're gonna make it in the MLB. You know, so we'll both be professional athletes. We're gonna take care of the family. We're gonna take care of each other." You know, as the years went on, you know, we always talked about it, but we never envisioned that something like that would ever truly happen. You know, I was, I played my eighth-grade year and almost walked away completely because I was in the middle of a really awkward growth spurt. I was like 5'8", 280 in eighth grade. Couldn't run, couldn't even touch my toes, had a hard time tying my shoes, you know, and... DG: You're like, this body is not made for football at that moment. SJ: Yeah, you know, and then the coaches weren't very, you know, encouraging at that time, at that level. So I told my dad, I was like, "You know what? I don't even want to go. I'm done playing. I hurt, not good at it." And the one thing that stuck with me that day, right before practice started, was "If you quit this now, it'll just be easier for you to quit everything else that you have to do in the future." He's like, "You know, finish this season... DG: What an important lesson to learn and self-discovery, like coming to that yourself. That's really... SJ: Yeah, and that really changed me. You know, that that one you know one-minute conversation with my dad in the car, and his wisdom, you know, it rang true. So I finished out the season and actually felt better because of it. You know, I was able to look back and say, "Well, I beat all the, you know, adversities that I was going through at that time," which gave me confidence to to continue to continue to push forward with everything else. And then from my freshman year to my sophomore year, you know, I went from 5'9" to 6'4". DG: Oh, nice. It's a good growth spurt. SJ: So I got all my speed now. DG: Yeah, can't say from experience I know what that feels like, but that's a good that's a good spurt to go through. SJ: It was painful. I can tell you that. Very painful. DG: Oh, really? SJ: Yeah, cracked the heels, cracked my heels. I had to wear moon boots. It was not an awesome time for that. But my speed dramatically increased to where I was one of the fastest on the field. Was leaner, was way more athletic, and you know, once the rest of my body caught up with me, you know, it was easy at that point. DG: In what position in football were you? SJ: So I played a little bit of everything. DG: Okay. SJ: There was times where I primarily it was D-N, D-tackle, little bit of linebacker, punter. I was a gunner a couple times on kickoff and on punt. So, offense, I was tackle, sometimes fullback. You know, there's small town played both ways, so I was seeing forty-three, forty-four minutes a game. DG: Wow. It's exhausting. I mean, football players say just being on one side of the field is exhausting throughout the entire game. SJ: Yeah, it got to the points where I couldn't move. You know, I had a hard time walking and functioning after a game just because of playing so hard. But things started to get real, you know, the childhood dreams of, you know, I'm gonna play in the NFL, my brother's gonna play in baseball, you know, that kind of went by the wayside as I got older. It's like, you know, whatever happens, happens. And you know, I'm gonna go to college. And one of the biggest driving forces for me was we had a conversation with my parents in my junior year, and they're like, "Okay, you know, if you can get a scholarship for athletics that will pay for your schooling, that would be amazing. But don't hang your hat on that and be disappointed should it not happen." DG: Mm-hmm. SJ: And I was like, yeah, you know, you're right. You know, if I don't, then you know, I'll go play, you know, I'll go to community college or go JUCO or you know, a D2 school, you know, and kind of go that route. Well, then all the scholarship offers started rolling in. And I kid you not, every time I was in chemistry class, which was my last class of the day, the mail people or the kids, they were bringing in boxes filled with recruitment letters and all in, you know, personal handwritten letters and everything from all these major colleges. And that's when it really, you know, started to dawn on me, like and my family, like, oh damn, you know, I might have a chance here, you know... DG: To play for a big program? SJ: Yeah, you know, essentially all of the Big 12 offered me my junior year, as well as UCLA and Oregon. I never even talked to anybody from those schools. They just threw their hat in the ring. DG: That's amazing. That must have felt, I mean, as a high school kid, just seeing all those names of those big programs on the envelopes must have been something else. SJ: Yeah, it was really life-changing, but it got old really quick, 'cause I've never been one to really want, you know, a ton of attention. 'Cause I was just some kid in Fort Morgan playing football, and I could feel the animosity and the jealousy. I don't know if that's the correct word. You know, from all my class... DG: From teammates?. SJ: No, from just classmates in general. You know, the guys on the team thought it was awesome. DG: Recruiters were disrupting chemistry class with their flood of scholarship offers. Seth could have had his choice of any program in the country. Ultimately, he went with the Cornhuskers. Not for its prestige, but rather its proximity to his family. Campus was just a six hour drive from home. So what what how'd you pick Nebraska? [MUSIC] SJ: I didn't want to be that far away from my parents. And you know, going through all the schools, Nebraska was always, you know, number one until the UCLA offer came in. And my mom cried when she saw the letter. Cause she thought I, you know, she saw exactly how I reacted. California, you know, awesome weather, beautiful, beautiful women, party school. DG: Mm-hmm. SJ: But then my dad, you know, kind of talked me down and and he's like, what's more important? You know, partying and going out on the weekends or trying to fulfill a dream that you've had since you were little. And so I thought about it.... DG: More good advice from your dad. SJ: Yeah. He's been a huge, a huge influence in both me and my brother's life. And so when I did an official visit at Nebraska, very welcoming. They had just they were just finishing up building their new weight room that they have, bunch of additions to the college, and everyone knew who I was out there. You know, we'd go out to to dinner, and that's all people in Nebraska do is eat, breathe, and live Nebraska football. DG: Right. SJ: So it was, and it reminded me a lot of Fort Morgan. You know, kind of laid back, not not as busy. And it was a place where I could venture out on my own, and I was far enough away from home to become my own person, but I wasn't so close that you know, I would be able to grow individually. And I, you know, I wanted my parents there. They my parents went to every single sporting event my brother, me and my brother ever had, ever. So Yeah. DG: Were you recruited to be at what what position were you recruited to Nebraska to play? SJ: Either D-end or three technique, D-tackle. DG: Okay. And so defensive line stuff for the uninitiated. Seth was riding high. His parents were beaming with pride as he headed off to anchor a legendary Nebraska defense. But then devastating injury would strike. Coming up, Seth's dream begins to unravel. Welcome back to Sports in America. When Seth Jensen first got to Nebraska, he was on top of the world, thrilled to represent his family for one of the most storied programs in the country. But then his knees gave out, and with them his hopes for a career in football. Nebraska's where the injuries started piling up for you. I mean, take me through what happened and and and maybe what was the low point? [MUSIC] SJ: So, oh man. I think the lowest point that I had hit was my sophomore or my freshman year. So I was redshirted as a true freshman and had quite a few injuries. My first year there, I had back-to-back shoulder surgeries and a couple meniscus surgeries. And my sophomore year, you know, my body was back in tune. You know, I was back at the top of my game. And it was the week of the Mizzou game. And it was an away game. And that day at practice, coaches came, hey, you're gonna be suiting up for the Missouri game as at the two, you know, number two on the depth chart. So, you know, make sure you have all your stuff ready. I was like, okay, cool, you know, try to play it off like, oh no big deal, you know, try to act like I've been there before. That's what you know my dad and my mom had taught us in martial arts was if you win, act like you've been there. Don't, no excessive celebrations because you know it's just a moment in time. So super excited, you know, all practice, working my ass off, and then I had beaten one of our senior offensive tackles in a one-on-one drill, and he had dropped down to cut block me, and he had just caught me at the perfect angle, and it folded my meniscus and my left leg completely on top of itself. So I had zero range of motion, had to get another surgery and I that's where a lot of the the depression set in for me, you know, and I didn't know anything about sports induced trauma or depression, anxiety, anything like that until that very moment, and then it all kind of just came piling down and it was just injury after injury. And then the new coaching staff comes in, and I didn't agree with the head coach or his brother or anything that they stood for, and in 2008 released from my scholarship. You know, it's like whatever, you know, I'm gone and DG: They decided to release you from the scholarship? SJ: Correct. Yeah. DG: Okay. Because of all the injuries? I mean, is that? SJ: They couldn't release me because of that, but I know that's what it was about. That I was just injury-prone at that point and a liability. So DG: And I think Ryan described it as just really bad luck. Is that what it feels like to you? Just a string of injuries? SJ: Yeah, you know, and there wasn't, you know, anything that I don't think there's anything I could have done to you know, to prevent a lot of those. Some of them, yeah, because I played with reckless abandonment when I was on the field, you know, in high school. And I tried to play with that same mentality at the college level, and I soon learned the hard way that I couldn't play that style, but at that point it was too late. One morning, get up for summer or morning practice and both my knees buckled, you know, and I just hit the ground in my apartment. And that was the realization that my athletic career was done. You know, I had fought through so much. DG: I'm so sorry. That sounds like... SJ: It was. I learned a lot about myself. DG: While Seth's prospects were plummeting because of injury, Ryan's were just taking off. After getting dropped by Nebraska, Seth transferred to Colorado State Pueblo, but he was never able to get back on the field. Meanwhile, Ryan got his own small football scholarship at the same school, and he was able to impress his coaches in short order. When his motivation started to waver, it was his older brother who was right there to help him lock in. I guess the moment I would love to hear you talk about was this conversation before his junior year, when he was thinking about quitting and not playing football anymore. You guys had a talk, and you what what do you remember about that? SJ: So I don't remember the exact time of it, but I do remember the conversation. And you know, he at this point he's highly successful. Ton of eyes on him, burying people every game. I mean, just dominating everybody, but he wasn't happy with it because it was never really his dream to be playing at that kind of level, playing football. You know, he wanted to play baseball. And I told him, I said, you got one more season left. Just finish it. You know, you're going into your junior year, you got this season and you got the next season. Is it really that much of an inconvenience for you to finish out? You know, and I told him, I said, if you quit now, you will look back on this moment and you will regret it for the rest of your life. And it was essentially the same conversation that my dad had with me when I was in eighth grade. DG: Sounds like it. SJ: I saw his capability and his talent level, and talking with the coaches and the you know the strength conditioning staff because I was still very much involved, at least on a you know, a friendship level with those guys. And I told him, I was like, what if you have a chance to make it to where you would never have to work another day in your life? I was like, Yeah, it's not baseball. I said, but it's an opportunity for you to at least uphold your side of the bargain that we made when we were kids that one of us is gonna make it, one of us is gonna take care of the family, maybe both of us are gonna make it, maybe both of us are gonna take care of the family, you know, and I something changed in him that day, you know, it like the the fog of war, I guess you could call it for athletics, kind of lifted from him, you know, because it got to the point where he didn't care, you know. He's like, "This, you know, this is dumb." I'm, you know, "This hurts." And he really wanted to pursue his career in special education, you know, special ed, and you know, gym, and he was really looking at that. DG: While his resolve to play football might have wavered at times, something shifted in Ryan after that pivotal talk with his older brother, almost as though a sense of responsibility set in. Like he could achieve this goal for both of them. Seth noticed right away. [MUSIC] SJ: But after our conversation, that very next game, he came out with "His dream through me," written on his wristband. DG: Yeah, referring to you, that this was your dream that he was living out, yeah. SJ: And that was subsequently the first game that we had taken my son to. 'Cause he was just born. Like he was fresh out of the oven. (Laughs) And it was the first home game for CSU Pueblo and he went out on the field, and I could see writing on his wristbands, and I'm like, "Okay, you know, what, what is that? "You know. DG: Oh, you didn't know what it meant during the game? SJ: Yeah, no, we had no idea. We just thought it was just some writing or you know, a prayer scripture written on the tape, you know, before going into battle for protection. And after the game, he came over, and he handed me that tape. And I looked at it, and I'm like, well, what does this stand for? And he said, "This is your dream through me." And I lost it. Because I knew at that point he wasn't playing for himself anymore. He was seeing this through for me. And, you know, I'd already respected him a great deal. And, you know, one of his biggest fans. But after that moment, it made me realize that he's not doing this for him. He's doing it for me and for my son and for the family. This isn't a dream that he had. This isn't a path he envisioned walking down. And that's one of the things a lot of people don't understand when it comes to high-profile athlete families. Is you know, they see these guys with you know, nine-figure contracts buying their parents, you know, Lamborghinis and mansions and all that, but then they're broke at the end. Our family, the biggest advice our father gave us when playing sports, it's not about the money, it's not about the notoriety, it's not about the fame. So there's only two things that are important when you put on that uniform. The school you're playing for, their name is on the front of your jerseys. But the most important part is your last name because you are representing your family. Don't do anything to bring dishonor to the family. You know, you can play for any team you want, but if you're out acting, you know, inappropriately out in public, getting hammered, getting into fights, gambling, getting into to debt, getting into a crowd with the wrong people, you know, honor is a very big thing for our our family because, you know, when we're six feet under, all we have is our last name to carry on. DG: This relationship could have soured in any number of ways, but the beauty of the Jensen brothers is that genuine love and admiration won out. Even at the highest levels of the NFL, Ryan continued to credit his older brother for his motivation and his success as an athlete. [MUSIC] RJ: So my favorite dairy product is cookies and cream ice cream. What I had for breakfast this morning was I had a couple of pieces of bacon, a couple of eggs, some hash browns, and a nice cold glass of milk. So my biggest role model is my older brother. He always led me down the right path and taught me how to do things the right way. SJ: I never really knew how much I had actually meant to him because I felt like I had disappointed him when I left Nebraska. I felt like I had let down the family. That, well, you know, what a waste of time this was, at that time. You know, I felt like I had wasted everyone's time. It was a burden to everybody. I, you know, shamed the family, so to speak. But as time went on, I just slowly, you know, moved, you know, moved under his shadow. You know, he lived in my shadow since we were little. You know, even at my high school graduation, you know, our class president said, you know, we have a future NFL football player sitting amongst us that's gonna represent Fort Morgan. And my hubris was like me, you know. No one expected Ryan just because he wasn't that big during that time, you know, physically stature-wise. He wasn't as big as I was, he wasn't as fast or strong as I was. So you know, always had this notion, especially after all the scholarship offers, that you know, I was gonna be the one that was gonna go. But life has a way of humbling you very quickly. And I was humbled. So, yeah, you know, we went to every home game. I cheered my lungs out for him. We made signs for him, you know. So even though my dream was over, I didn't hold it against him that he was being successful because he was still out there representing our family. And that's all we asked from him. And that's the same thing I told him when he went to the NFL was the only expectation I have from you is to work hard and bring honor to our family. DG: Is there any resentment at all? Like, and I don't mean resentment like at him, but almost like at the world. I mean, even though you support him and are the most supportive brother and his biggest fan, like, is there any lingering resentment like "That could have been me, it was supposed to be me?" Is any of that any of that inside? SJ: So yeah, there was a lot of that, but no one in the family knew that. I mean, I barely came out and addressed that a couple of years ago. Because I just I was tired of holding it in. You know. But yeah, that sure that was sure DG: What did that look like? How did you address it? SJ: So this is when I was still drinking a little bit. Been a couple years sober now. DG: Congratulations. SJ:...But I was, thank you. Thank you. I I think what really tipped it off was the Super Bowl. You know, after the Super Bowl party and everything. It was a couple months after, and he'd come home. We went out and got a couple drinks, and I was just I was mad. I was really mad, really upset with his success. Cause, you know, we always envisioned me taking care of little brother, taking care of mom and dad, you know, had this whole life planned out when I was 12. So when, you know, he signed on with Tampa and got that massive contract. That's when all the the people started coming out of the woodworks. And I was a law enforcement, I was working for the police department at that time. And you know, the day he signed that big contract, I was the first person he had called to let me know. DG: Mm-hmm. SJ: You know, so I was super happy for him. And then I go to work that night, and everyone's like, "Why are you here?" You know. And I'm looking around, like, "What do you mean, why am I here?" Like, "Your brother just signed this huge contract. We were taking bets on whether or not you'd show up tonight." Cause they were under the assumption now that my brother's landed this monster contract, that I didn't have to come to work anymore because... DG: You're just gonna sit on your butt the rest of your life and like, you know, spend your brother's money. Like that's so ridiculous. SJ: Right. Yeah. And and that's you know, that's that was that was the hard part. A lot of people they understand, you know, the difficulties and pressures of a professional athlete that they go through, you know, to a degree. But what a lot of people don't understand is the family behind them having to deal with that kind of stuff, you know. And I tell him, like, "That's not my money. That's my brother's money. If he wants to throw me a hot million, I'm not gonna argue." I said, "But I don't have that expectation of him." I said, "I only expected him to do well and to bring honor to our family." And over the years, people they just kept chipping away at it, chipping away at it. "Why are you still here? Why aren't you up in Denver Evergreen with them? Why are you, you know, driving the vehicle you have when your brother has these mansions and these really nice vehicles?" And it just got to the point to where I just stopped responding. And it all kind of came to a head. You know, after he had won the Super Bowl. DG: This is the night that you and your brother were having some drinks after the Super Bowl? SJ: Went out, had a couple of drinks and I told him, I was like, I was like, "I know I've been distant with you." And it wasn't fair to him because he had no idea. Because I didn't say it, I didn't say anything. I just kept it all bottled inside. And I told him that "I resented you for years. I was jealous of you and your success for years. I envied you. I was mad at you." You know, and he looked at me, dumbfounded. He's like, "What are you talking about? You've come to all my games, you've supported me every step of the way." And I was like, "Well, yeah, I'm gonna support you. But that doesn't mean I wasn't angry with you. "And he thought he's like, "Well, it was because I didn't give you, you know, enough money because I didn't buy you a truck?" And I was like, "No, it has nothing to do with that, because I didn't expect that from you." I said, "You're just living the life I always dreamed." And then it dawned on him, you know, and you know, as drunk brothers do, a couple tears came out, you know, and I finally had made peace with him that night, because for years and years and years I thought I was at peace with it. But every time someone mentioned it or something came up with him in the news, or you know, on ESPN, or you know, things like that, it always came back, and I would just get more and more angry, you know, because I wanted that life. I thought I was gonna be doing that. But like I said, life humbled me, and I just had to work through it, and I wish I would have told him sooner, because it was a lot of undue stress and burden, not only on myself, but my parents knew something was wrong because I'd act different around them. And my mom was actually the one that kinda dug it out of me, and then that's when I had the conversation with him, and I told him. I was, you know, I was too afraid to say anything 'cause I didn't want to distract them, you know, from all the success he was having. DG: Even though Seth had made some measure of peace with his little brother's sudden fame and fortune, he was about to enter one of the darkest chapters of his own life. Coming up against the backdrop of Ryan's Super Bowl run, a harrowing episode that would shake Seth to his core. DG: Welcome back to Sports in America. Right around when Ryan Jensen signed a four-year $42 million contract with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, Seth joined the police force in Pueblo. He was regularly assigned to the graveyard shift, which meant he was working through the night. As if that wasn't taking enough of a toll on his mental health and his family life, one night, during the NFL season, when his brother would go on to win the Super Bowl, Seth was involved in a terrifying incident that would send him spiraling. Can I ask you what happened with the shooting? [MUSIC] SJ: So I was a step-up sergeant for the night. So our sergeant was gone. I was most senior, so I was in charge of my crew, and a man with a weapon, fight with weapons came out in our area of town, show up and we talked to the person who called, and they said it sounded like two people fighting in a possible gunshot. And I heard a guy screaming his lungs out on the porch. So we go over, you know, trying to calm this guy down because he was super agitated, and we didn't know why. And he came barreling off the porch with a handgun. He pulled it out of his pocket. And it's something like the teach you in the academy, but it was one of those "Oh [EXPLETIVE]" moments, like this is actually happening, type thing. You know, I'd gone five years without anything to this level. While we're dealing with all this, he turns his back to us and walks it back up onto the porch, and he keeps looking over his shoulder, his right shoulder at me. He was targeting me. So he was trying to gage distance, location, you know, trying to figure out where I was, started to raise his hands up in the air, and as his hands got all the way up in the air, he had brought the handgun back and pointed it towards me. And so one of my partners had discharged his firearm. I started to discharge mine. He ended up living, thankfully. And he got hit with two of our rounds, non-life-threatening injuries. We got him off the porch. We did field trauma. Medical to him until the ambulance could get there and got him on his way. But after that moment, you know, it was all kind of downhill for me. Cause it was real at that point that I was just another statistic. You know, and the books of officer-involved shootings for our town. We averaged, you know, four to five a year, if not more. DG: This is in which city? This is in? SJ: Pueblo, Colorado. DG: In Pueblo, okay. SJ: Yeah. So, you know, the way that was handled, I didn't think it was handled correctly, at least with the medical side of it in terms of, you know, speaking with therapists and everything. It was just kind of like," Okay, you know, how you feeling?" Da da da da not really digging into it. And it was some psychiatrist in Denver that I met once in person and talked to once on the phone, and then he released me back into the wild. DG: I'm so sorry. That's, you deserve more help. SJ: Yeah. And at that point, you know, when I was to that level to that degree of it, I hid it really well. You know, I never showed it, and I never presented myself in distress, either in front of my family or in front of my coworkers, you know, just stoic, just get the thing, just get it done. Just go do your job. You know, you have a family to take care of, you have bills to pay. So the last night I ever wore a uniform, I mean, it was at the absolute lowest point of my life, easily. And I felt like there was no way out. So I pulled up, and I was in the police department parking lot, and I pulled my service weapon out, put it in my mouth, and pulled the trigger without even thinking. And it was click, no bang. I was like, Well, that wasn't supposed to happen. And you know, there was a primer strike on the primer itself, just like what had happened back in 2017 when that guy pulled the trigger on us. So there was a primer strike. And so I was like, Okay, DG: Which is like a jam in the weapon or something that? SJ: Yeah, it just didn't fire. DG: Just by happenstance? SJ: Yeah. And so I went out to the range the next day just to see if it was an actual mechanical failure. You know, whether it was the firing pin, maybe it was dirty. No, went through three magazines like it was nothing. DG: So that whatever went wrong with that discharge saved your life. It's the only reason you're here today. SJ: Correct, and so I went in, talked to my captain. I didn't know. I didn't tell him, you know, exactly what was wrong or what I had just done because I knew that would have been an automatic 72-hour hold. And this was towards the pinnacle of, or the crescendo leading up to the Super Bowl. So DG: This was, this all happened right before the Super Bowl? SJ: Yeah, this was that season. That was the 2020 season. DG: So you're dealing with the trauma of an officer-involved shooting, not getting as much help as you needed. You try to take your own life. And I don't even know, like I'm so sorry that you found, hit that dark place. And then you but all and also all the stuff with your brother that you were just holding inside. How do you even try to process? SJ: Looking back now is really dumb and selfish, but in the moment, and a lot of attempted suicide survivors will say the same thing is right before the action, it feels like the entire weight of the world is lifted 'cause you know you won't have to deal with it anymore. I've talked with a lot of cops that were on that edge of, "Well, I don't want to do this anymore, but I don't know how to do anything else." And yeah, it's hard to see the force through the trees, and you know, I just talk to them about my experience and how much happier I am now that, you know, I'm not working at night while everyone's sleeping, and you know I'm home alone during the day and everyone's at work or school. You know, I get to go to bed with my wife, I get to wake up with my kids, and I get to be a part of everything. DG: The aftermath of these events left a mark on Seth, one that he is still working through. But instead of retreating, he's tried to turn it into something useful. These days, he talks openly about what he lived through, hoping it helps someone else feel less alone. And he and Ryan have been sketching out a plan for a ranch in the mountains, a place where veterans, former officers, anyone carrying trauma can catch their breath and start to recover. A place where Seth, using his own experience as a model, can show that rediscovery and reinvention are possible. Have you found a next chapter? Are you still thinking about it? SJ: So, with Ryan's construction company that him and his buddy own down in Tampa, they expanded out here. I worked for them for two years, and I used a lot of cause I didn't know what I was gonna do, you know, with all the skills that I had acquired. I didn't want to be involved in anything violent anymore. I can tell you that. You know, I had plenty of that playing football and being in law enforcement. So he's like, "Well, why don't you come do procurement or estimation for us to see if you like it?" And I ended up loving it, you know, calling vendors, negotiating, getting the best prices for our, you know, our clients, but not stealing food from the vendors' mouth and their family's mouths at the same time, you know, finding that equilibrium to where everyone wins all the time. And I was highly successful at that. DG: I love that. And you bring the experience of being, I think, having gone through so much and processed it and overcome it, like to me, you're kind of like the perfect person to help families through those moments. And also not to not who am I to tell you and Ryan what to do, but given his desire to create a space for healing for people in the first responder world, and what you went through and overcame, like I personally would be your biggest fans if you guys start some kind of ranch to help people heal. SJ: Yeah. And I have a lot of I have a lot of connections through Colorado, you know, other law enforcement agencies, fire departments. So we have a lot of military and first responder background in our lineages. And I know that the fallout would have been a little softer after my incident. And after, and it wasn't just that incident, I mean, it's you know, dealing with children who have passed away from SIDS or having to do CPR on somebody on a drug overdose. All that builds up. And there's not a lot of places for people in those arenas to vent or to just be. You know, once you put on that uniform and that badge, that's who you are, 24/7, 365. You're constantly looking for issues in your community, you know, wondering, you know, you know, am I gonna help somebody when I'm off duty or not? But suffering constant trauma on the job and not having a place to go to where you don't have to look over your shoulder or worry about the world, you know, for two or three days is a much-needed thing for first responders and military alike, you know, medical field, doctors, ER trauma. You know, and I think if we can establish something that gives people like me and my brother-in-law, and father-in-law a place to unload all that stress and sit by a creek for an hour and a half and just listen to the music of the forest. It has so much intrinsic healing value. Like, whenever I go up to the ranch, I'm not sitting inside, I'm not dwelling, I'm not doing any of that. I'm up in the creeks, you know, we're riding the four wheelers, dirt bikes, side by sides. But for ,the most part, I mean, I could be up there for a weekend, and I'll spend 15 hours sitting by a creek listening to the trees. Listening to the music that's being played from the wind, listening to nature. And, you know, I had a lot of therapy hours with my psychologist, you know, when I was going through it. But after he bought the ranch and we were able to go up there and just relax, you know, kick your shoes off, put your feet in the dirt, and close your eyes, it doesn't even feel like you're on the same planet anymore. And it just, you can... DG: This is the ranch that Ryan has up there, right? SJ: Yeah, and you can just feel all the stress and anxiety that you dealt with the whole week just melt away. And then at nighttime, you go out by you know the fire pit and look up into the sky. There's no light pollution. So you get to see the entire array of stars up there. So, you know, after that, I told him I was like, We need to figure out how to make this happen. I don't know if we have to lobby the state, you know, do a bunch of fundraising. We have a bunch of people in the entertainment business, law enforcement sector, all of that that are very supportive of it. And I'm sure if we were able to, you know, if we have the opportunity to do it, that it will be highly successful. And I'm of the belief that it will save countless lives, countless marriages, countless relationships between, you know, the person and their children. Because my kids went through it, you know, firsthand, and I felt terrible about it because I wasn't the person they knew. I was turning into a monster because I had unchecked issues that I was dealing with. And I mean, can't really go do that here down here because it's a lot of desert, you know, lots of bugs, lots of people. So, you know, going I look forward every time we go up to the ranch just to be able to sit by one of those creeks and just unwind for hours, you know, playing with my niece and nephew, playing with my kids. I'm a firm believer that if we can get this done, it will create stronger bonds within the families of first responders as well as them meeting people like minded. You know, having a couple of families up there gives them a chance to reflect and share their experiences. DG: With a lot of empathy, because yeah, because people go through similar stuff. SJ: Oh, yeah. And my wife was a huge help with a couple of my friends who were involved in shootings down here, you know, helping them process it. She's my rock, you know. I'm 6'4, 340, she's all 5'2, 130, but I'm the big blubbering idiot, and she's the one that's always strong. And you know, it was hard for her too, because she didn't know what to do. And I think that's another big thing a lot of departments fail to understand or fail to address, is yeah the person involved in that traumatic incident definitely needs help. But the people at home are the ones that have to live with it. And I think if we can, you know, get this retreat done and not only get these families up there, but bring in professionals that would want to volunteer their time to help maybe not necessarily the person that it you know happened to, but have them talk with the wife, the kids, the moms, the dads, the brothers, the sisters, and help them process, you know, what their significant other or their loved ones going through, because like me, there's thousands of other people just like me that will come home and say, you know, their spouses was how's work? It was fine. Not knowing that, you know, you scooped up body parts and put them in a bucket from a car accident or had to deal with a suicide, you know, because we want to shield our family from that. But at the same time, by us shielding them from it. We're hurting them because now we're living with it. And, you know, a lot of people are too afraid to offload that onto their family member because they think it would hurt them or scare them, which, for the most part, is not the case. You know, they're more concerned that you're becoming short with them, that you're not explaining yourself, you know, not saying how work was going because you don't want to relive the trauma. DG: I hope that hearing you talk about it, you know, in this conversation, we can, it'll do some small part in raising awareness for the need for stuff like this. Because I I remember hearing it from Ryan, now hearing it from you. It just it's such an amazing and incredible need. Seth, what you've been through and your willingness to talk about it and honestly and how you overcame it, and your relationship with your brother, and I mean it's just it's it's really I feel very, very lucky and honored to be able to to hear your story and and listen to you. So I really appreciate it. SJ: Oh, well, thank you. Yeah, and thank you for taking time out of your day. DG: Next time on Sports in America. [THEME MUSIC] KAREEM ROSSER: There aren't many sports in the world where you have an animal as a partner, right? Or as a teammate. DG: We're talking to US polo champion Kareem Rosser, whose story challenges every assumption you might have about privilege, about grit, and what it means to break barriers. KR: We would show up to places like the Hamptons and go play polo, and then life was great when we were there, but at the end of the day, we were going back to the Bottom. DG: We learn all about the sport of competitive polo, which is sort of like a mashup of ice hockey and NASCAR. KR: You're running on a horse at 35 miles per hour; it's a contact sport. DG: And we find out how Kareem uses the tragedies he has experienced to help others. That is next time on Sports in America. This is Sports in America. I'm your host, David Greene. Our executive producers are Joan Isabella and Tom Grahsler. Our senior producer is Michael Olcott. Our producer is Michaela Winberg, and our associate producer is Bibiana Correa. Our engineer is Charlie Kaier. Our tile artwork was created by Bea Walling. Sports in America is a production of WHYY in Philadelphia and is distributed by PRX. Some of our interviews were originally created by Religion of Sports, with special thanks to Adam Schlossman. You can find Sports in America on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, the iHeartRadio app, you know, wherever you get your podcasts.