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Robert Bailey: The Mediator · Storied Account with Jen Jumba

• Jennifer Jumba: This is Storied Account with Jen Jumba. In conversations with writers, something magical happens. And as readers, we begin to see them as human beings and not just the name on the spine of a book. My hope is through these conversations, you learn about their craft and them as a person, and you'll become like me. Fiercely loyal, want to read their current book, entire backlist, any future book or any book they blurb. And when you see their name, you'll want to support them. not only as incredible storytellers, but also the thoughtful individuals you have come to know. Robert Bailey: Okay. Jennifer Jumba: So I'm so lucky today because my guest is Robert Bailey. He is the Wall Street Journal bestselling author of The Boomerang, the Jason Rich series, the McCurdy and Drake legal thrillers, as well as the inspirational novel, The Golfer's Carol, and the new Max Ringo series with the first book, The Mediator, which just published this week. So congratulations. Robert Bailey: Thank you. Jennifer Jumba: Sure. Beloved by readers around the world, Robert's books are imbued with a keen sense of justice and a profound understanding of what drives people to commit the worst crimes and fight hardest for those they love. Gained from his decades as a civil defense trial lawyer in his hometown of Huntsville, Alabama. His work has comparisons to John Grisham, and I would say deservedly so. Robert is the son of a builder and a school teacher, and from the time he could walk, he loved stories, especially those about coach Paul Bryant and his beloved Alabama Crimson Tide football team. Robert obtained his Bachelor of Arts in History from Davidson College in North Carolina. He went to law school at the University of Alabama, and then he made law review, competed on the school's trial team, Robert Bailey: You Jennifer Jumba: and managed to watch every home football game. I think that I'd be proud of. He lives in Huntsville with his wife, kids, and a beloved menagerie of pets. So I'm so glad you're able to join me today to talk about this fantastic book. ⁓ you're quite welcome. So this is the first in a series. Your main character is Max Ringo. Title of the book is The Mediator, which is what her new job is. Robert Bailey: You Hahaha So thank you for having me, Jim. Jennifer Jumba: How would you introduce Max at a cocktail party? Robert Bailey: Max is somebody trying to make a comeback. She's had a difficult ⁓ set of circumstances happen to her. She has a car accident and ⁓ becomes a victim of the opioid crisis, gets hooked on painkillers and ends up basically just kind of losing her life, losing her husband, becoming estranged from her son. You know, she goes to rehab and she's trying to come out of all that. And, ⁓ she starts trying to make a comeback while she's suspended from the practice of law as a mediator. And, ⁓ she starts getting some assignments and she's assigned this high powered mediation between these two power players in Huntsville, Alabama, thinking it's the opportunity of a lifetime. And of course it turns out to be one of the more impossible situations I've ever written about. Jennifer Jumba: you Does this, any of this come from your work as a mediator or a defense attorney? I mean, they say truth is stranger than fiction, Robert Bailey: I think that, you know, for me, and I may be wrong about this, but I've never really seen a mediation play out in commercial, you know, contemporary fiction. You know, I think in the movie Wedding Crashers, the two guys were divorced mediators, but that was more for comic relief. And in my story, you know, the beauty of setting a book around a mediation is mediations typically only take a day. sometimes two days and in my story it goes into a third day, but you know, to be able to play the entire story out over three days kind of amps up the pace of the story organically. And because Max is, you know, got a personal stake in the mediation, which you're never supposed to have as a mediator, the whole purpose is to be a neutral and her, you know, her son is kidnapped at the very beginning of the story. And so she's basically told by villain of the story ⁓ she has ⁓ settle the case on his terms or her son is going to die. And so the stakes are, couldn't be higher for her. And so ⁓ the mediation like vehicle just worked really well for this story. I am a mediator now myself. So there is a bit of life imitating art, art imitating life. And ⁓ so that's kind of what I'm doing in addition to writing now. So I was mediating cases while I was writing this book, which is very helpful. Jennifer Jumba: Great. Robert Bailey: not so much for the content, but just the process of it and having that in my head while I was kind of going from room to room in the story, I was going room to room in my real work. And so I think sometimes that can be helped. Jennifer Jumba: Absolutely. You mentioned earlier that in contemporary fiction, we haven't seen a main character as a mediator. We've seen a gazillion attorneys, you know, which are terrific. But to see it from this perspective, I think is really great because most people think, ⁓ ⁓ they're supposed to get the sides to agree. But watching that process play out and basically going ⁓ from, side to the other side. ⁓ Max talks about of the things she learned as a mediator, like always using the word we. no matter which room she's in. Like there's not an us versus them. It's a we and we trying to look for like quote unquote the win-win scenario. Robert Bailey: Mm-hmm. Right. Right. Right. That is, I mean, that is mediation mediator training 101. And, you know, I've learned from a lot of really, uh, really good mediators and that's kind of what you, what you hear and what you see and the ones that are effective basically kind of make you feel like you're part of their team when you're in that, in that room. And then you go on the other room and you kind of see it from their angle and try to, to, to find some type of happy, happy ground, medium ground. Jennifer Jumba: I thought it was really interesting. makes me always kind of think that there's like three sides to every story. And that mediator is really looking, for the truth and for the best possible outcome for both parties involved and to see the behind the scenes. Now, granted, it was amped up in terms of, her son being kidnapped that first day. ⁓ But I, ⁓ this is a great I know we talked a little bit before that she is going back like. Robert Bailey: Right. Jennifer Jumba: her mentor says to her that, to be a mediator, you don't need an office, you don't need a law license, ⁓ you need to be able to, look and to listen. And where she's mediating this case is in the same law firm where she was basically kicked out. Robert Bailey: Right? Yeah, that was, ⁓ that was all kind of on purpose. You know, I wanted it to be as uncomfortable for her as I could, but also make it make sense. I mean, she needed a place to host the mediation. She doesn't have an office. This was her former office. She still has a relationship with her former partner. And so it makes sense for her to do it there, but it also creates some neat, ⁓ nostalgia and fear for her as she goes. in there for the first time. And especially with the reader knowing that her son's been kidnapped, but her not knowing quite yet, I think it helped with her sort of being already sort of uncomfortable. And then this happens right at the beginning of the mediation where she learns what has happened to her son. Then she has to kind of figure it out as she goes. It's, mediations really become kind of the most popular way for cases to end now, at least civil cases. And so in reality, as much as we all love to try cases in the courtroom, most of them end before court, you know, at least the civil ones do. And the divorce cases are the same. And this, this case arises out of a divorce case. So it would be very realistic for a case like this to settle. It's just, you know, obviously this is fiction. And so I take some liberties and amp up. the drama, the actual vehicle and how it comes to be is quite realistic in terms of, know, two people with lots of money trying to decide what to do and they, they forego court and try to settle it. Jennifer Jumba: It's interesting because if they have that much money, they're the ones that are likely to be able to afford going to a trial, right? Because that is an expensive process. the same time, wanting a mediator to be able to resolve things. And the two parties involved in this case are basically a husband and wife, and they're getting divorced. And what makes this a little bit unique is the wife in this particular case, her dad is a Robert Bailey: Right. Jennifer Jumba: big power player in the community. And he's sitting in and she's a grown woman. I mean, she's not, 22, 23, you know, just newly married and, know, she's, middle-aged maybe and, has a bunch of life experience, but still needs her dad there to, you know, provide a perspective. Robert Bailey: Right. Right. Right. Yeah. I think, ⁓ you know, the, the, dynamics between, know, the dad brought his son-in-law into this company and then she meets, you know, his daughter and he, kind of feels responsible for this. And, ⁓ he was one of my favorite characters, sub characters in the story because he's got a lot of morally ambivalent behavior, but at the, know, he does love his daughter and it's, ⁓ He was a fun character to play with. ⁓ The villain of course is Perry Strasburg, CEO of this government contracting company. has a billion dollar merger hanging in the balance and he's going to probably get killed if he can't make it happen because the merger is financed by folks who want to have eyes on Redstone Arsenal, which is a military base in Huntsville. And ⁓ there is a whole lot of truth to the fact that there are several of the characters mentioned, foreign operatives being in Huntsville because of all the space exploration and the rocket center and the missile defense industry. And that's pretty true. And so to be able to take an authentic kind of piece of our culture here in Huntsville and sort of turn it and use it in fiction is I think. helps with the story some. then, you know, Perry was sort of given the reins by Dagger, his father-in-law, and then Dagger Richardson, you know, is double crossed basically by Perry, just like Stephanie, the wife is. And so ⁓ Dagger doesn't want Perry to get what he wants. And that sets up an almost impossible situation for Max where you have all these people who hate each other, all this money involved. And, ⁓ you know, there's a battle for the company, Dagger wants it back, Perry wants to keep it and merge and so, and you know, and not all the characters know what the other characters know, which is kind of fun to play with too. Jennifer Jumba: mean, we know because we're seeing, you know, this from Max's perspective. So we know what the other one, but ⁓ be the other people, other party that is in that room and not knowing the motive. mean, it's amazing what motivates people, and what they will do to get what it is that they want and Dagger. mean, even just his nickname, mean, it's, it's perfect. Robert Bailey: Right. Thank you. Jennifer Jumba: Yeah. And you have Perry, who ⁓ was on, ⁓ by ⁓ and the company doing well. But once ⁓ Perry got involved, it saw exponential And so he feels incredibly invested, like that never would have happened. We wouldn't have all this money if it weren't for me. And then Dagger's like, but that's my family's history and connections to the community. And so there's ⁓ all sorts of tensions. ⁓ Robert Bailey: Right. Jennifer Jumba: in this story and what people are motivated by and what repercussions might happen if things aren't resolved. So I thought it was really interesting. Yeah, talking about Max when she was talking about being a mediator, she said you need to know when to push and when to be gentle. Robert Bailey: Right. And that was. Right. That's so true. ⁓ and, ⁓ I, it's something that I'm learning to do and more. You know, I, when I first became a mediator, I was very tentative about, you know, wanting to not say the wrong thing. want the parties in the room to like you, but every so often you do have to kind of push and remind them of a, a verdict that, you know, maybe ⁓ another case that went against them or. Jennifer Jumba: Mm-hmm. Robert Bailey: or, you know, that the, the uncertainty of taking a case to a jury or to a judge and the costs, the delay, all of these different things that can drive a settlement. And, ⁓ it's important and Max has to do it a few times because she's running out of time, literally. ⁓ and, ⁓ and sometimes it can backfire, you know, sometimes you can lose the room for a little while if you don't, if you're not careful with it. So there is a dance to it and, ⁓ I feel honestly like I'm much better at it now that I don't practice law because I'm a little bit removed from the practice and I see it more from the individual standpoint than I do as a lawyer. I can still see the lawyer standpoint, but it's easier, I think, to talk to the parties. I think, I don't know if it's just something subconscious that I feel or maybe it's the literal truth, but it has seemed to be a little easier. Jennifer Jumba: Mm-hmm. Robert Bailey: to ⁓ really feel like I'm ⁓ a facilitator and not just a lawyer acting like a mediator, but a true like me. Jennifer Jumba: Right. No, that's interesting. What made you decide to move into mediation from the practice of law? Robert Bailey: I think, ⁓ I saw just more and more cases ending in mediation. You know, I really wanted to be a trial lawyer when I was in law school. And, know, I've probably tried to, you know, handful of cases and, ⁓ but you just, unless you're a criminal defense lawyer or a divorce lawyer, and really only the criminal defense lawyers get the jury trials, the divorce lawyers are mostly it's bench trials in front of a judge. You know, you just don't get a lot of jury trials anymore. And so, ⁓ That was just something I just experienced, you know, just like every other lawyer does. And, you know, I thought mediation would be a little bit more synergetic with what I do as a writer, as my writing career became more of the lead career. know, mediation is very intense. It's normally one day it's very stimulating and then it's over, you know, you either settle the case or you don't, but it's normally over. don't take the file home with you. so. That was very appealing to me because I like the, the intenseness of it and the consequences, but you know, the stress of waking up in the middle of the night and wondering if you had met a deadline or, know, you know, we've got a deposition that you're prepared for and you're nervous that your client's going to mess it up or that, you know, a judge is not going to grant a key motion. And those things were harder and harder to do as a full-time writer. And so, ⁓ it became. very stressful and you know, I'm getting older. It was a lot easier to do 10 years ago. So now mediation is just, it's a lot more ⁓ in balance with writing and I can do it. I can do quite a bit of it and it doesn't, it's almost invigorating and it sort of charges my battery more than drains it where the litigation was really draining it. And so. Jennifer Jumba: Right. And I would imagine is it because of the amount of time that it takes for a case if you're trying it versus mediating where you said it's over normally in a day or two. Robert Bailey: ⁓ absolutely. most cases, if they go to trial or, you know, at least two to three years, ⁓ you're talking about multiple depositions, you know, a lot of document discovery and then, you know, trial preparation. Normally you go through a mediation and if it's not successful, then you go to trial. ⁓ know, sometimes you have motion hearings. And so all of that ⁓ ⁓ would go into it. almost every case. And so, um, you know, if you have a pretty good, you know, number of cases, it can be a lot and you know, that's what we live for the more of it, the better. But as I became, you know, a writer, it was just harder to do. And, um, and it's just not really something that you can just do part time. I mean, I know there are part time lawyers, but it's hard to do litigation part time. And so whereas mediation is very easy to do part time. And, um, and honestly, It's the kind of job for me, like I said, it doesn't drain my battery like litigation did. And so it's, really has been helpful, I think sometimes to, uh, to be able to do something that keeps my foot in the water in the legal world, but it doesn't, um, require the, the teeth gritting and the white knuckles of like, you know, deposition prep and hoping that something doesn't go wrong, which I was becoming more and more of a stressor for me. Jennifer Jumba: Yeah, well, first of all, I'm glad you recognize that and that, it allowed you ⁓ the to continue to write ⁓ and write incredibly great stories. ⁓ I think, too, because your stories are very character driven. mean, there's a plot and there's a pace to it, ⁓ but great characters. So I think what you said earlier about mediation and being able to get to know the individuals involved, I would think with litigation, there's so much paperwork. that it removes you so much from what brought that case to the forefront to begin with. So I'm glad you have that opportunity and can write and do something that you enjoy and that ultimately helps people all around. Robert Bailey: Right. been, I'm very fortunate to be able to do it. I'm definitely grateful for that. Jennifer Jumba: Is there a reason why mediation has increased lately? Is it just the cost of trial or wanting some resolution sooner? Robert Bailey: think that, you know, the ⁓ cost of trial, the ⁓ the time value, the, I mean, a case can take three to five years, you know, and even before COVID, it was taking a long time, but then COVID happened and you've got like a year backlog. And so we haven't ever really recovered from that, you know? And so the cases take longer ⁓ there is I think juries, I don't know if they're angrier, but they're definitely more, ⁓ they're less predictable now. You know, it used to be in Alabama, know, there are conservative counties, there are more, ⁓ non-conservative counties and you just kind of had an idea going in what was going to happen. And now even in conservative counties, you can get wilder verdicts. in, and in the other counties, the more liberal ones, you can get kind of, you know, verdicts that you would never have seen 20 years ago. And so I think the uncertainty of what's going to happen has become so great that it's driving, you know, fear in a lot of ways drives settlement, you know, the fear of, of what, you know, if that's what we try to do is we try to reach a number where one side's afraid not to take it and the other side's afraid not to offer just a little bit more to make it go away. so, ⁓ That's this kind of the zone of potential agreement really is when everybody gets uncomfortable, you know, and. Jennifer Jumba: Right That makes it makes a lot of sense one of the things that you touch on in this book is max and kind of how she ended up You know losing, the ability to practice law, you know her husband ⁓ she addicted to drugs and it was a very innocent innocuous, which is kind of where we're seeing the big increase right now is the baby boomers that have a hip replacement or a next thing, you know, they're You know Robert Bailey: Ahem. Jennifer Jumba: They have a drug issue. So her starts very innocently, you know, a car accident and treating an injury. The next thing you know. So it's an it's an interesting thing to bring up in this current time, you know. Robert Bailey: Yeah, I wanted her to have a background that I have hadn't done before. And I thought it would be, it would make, I hadn't really done that before. And then my Jason Rich series, he's a recovering alcoholic and that's a little different. I mean, the treatment in a lot of ways is the same, but how he got there was a little different. And with Max, I did want it to be outside of her control a little bit, you know, and then she's Jennifer Jumba: Mm-hmm. Robert Bailey: She is a very, I mean, she's very talented lawyer, know, skilled, you know, and ⁓ sort of feared as a lawyer. And then to lose it all like that and have it unravel. Based on some, she's the passenger in the car. She gets hit that, you know, they have to give her the oxycodone. And, and, and so it's, you know, she's kind of a victim and a lot of people have gone through that. And so I felt like that would be. a topic that people would understand because a lot of people have, you know, somebody in their circle, friends or family have probably been touched by it. And, ⁓ and so, ⁓ and so, you know, having that in the backdrop of this story for max is just, you know, it makes it almost unbearable because she's having to, you know, do this, you know, I'll handle all this adversity while she really hasn't been that far removed from rehab. And so. It's a tough situation. Jennifer Jumba: It is, and I think it's what as a reader, it makes me when you have a character like that, that has such a ⁓ backstory to be able to understand, the situation she's in that, walking through the hallways with her and her old law firm and, the looks that people are giving her or not giving her because they don't know what to say to her, you know, just as uncomfortable as she is, because you've given her this ⁓ great backstory. And at the same time, an opportunity to use her skills and talents, her smart, her intelligence in a different way, you looking for a good outcome. And I love that Jason Rich ⁓ an appearance in this book. I think that was fantastic. ⁓ And so he introduces her to this incredible character. Do you want to introduce Satchel? Robert Bailey: Right. Yes, that was fun. Sure. So ⁓ the Colonel Tony Dandel is a recurring character in the Jason Rich series and one of my favorites. mean, you know, we all have probably our favorites. And for me, ⁓ you know, the Tony Dandel brothers are supporting characters in the Jason Rich series and really happened organically in the first Jason Rich book where is going up against this, ⁓ you know, this drug kingpin and the Sand Mountain meth ring and he just doesn't have the skills to deal with them. And I really, you know, I just, do a synopsis of my stories, but I leave a lot of room for the characters to grow and kind of, you know, go out on their own. And I'll never forget Jason. It's almost like Jason and me at the same time are walking across Mill Creek road and we see the smoke coming up over the house. And I'd mentioned that he had these crazy neighbors that were ex-military, but he goes over, I'm not sure what's going to happen. I'm not even sure what's going to happen. And he goes over there and they say hello and they're taking out the trash Marshall County style, which is something I always wanted to get into the story somehow because I've heard somebody say that and it was just magic. mean, the Colonel, every scene he's in, kind of steals. And so I did kind of want to bring him back. And I thought this type of situation was a classic. know, Max is also getting hit from all directions by these people who are not playing by the rules. And of course that's That's just Satch's game. You that's kind of what he lives for. And so, ⁓ and Jason knows this. And when, when she goes to Jason, who's her mentor, he knows that maybe he can't help, but he knows that if there's anyone who can, it's the Colonel. And so I hope for fans of the series, that'll be a real like yay moment. And for new, new readers, they'll, you know, they'll love the character too. Jennifer Jumba: Absolutely. Can you explain that taking out the trash? Robert Bailey: Yes. So, ⁓ in Marshall County, in a lot of the rural counties in Alabama, if you're far away from like a trash service and, ⁓ a lot of people will just put their trash, you know, on a wood pile and burn it. And, ⁓ and so, and so that's what the Tony Dandle brothers are doing in the first Jason Rich book. And that's what Satch is doing in the mediator when Max County is burning his trash and he's sitting in front of it. Jennifer Jumba: Okay. Yeah. Robert Bailey: I've seen somebody do that. You we had a little place at the lake for a while and you know, it was, I heard somebody say that. And so I just thought, you know, it's always kind of fun when you hear dialogue and you're like, wow, I've got to use that. And so that I've used it several times. Jennifer Jumba: Yeah. Well, that's awesome. How, how do you, is there a way that you keep track of that or you just keep track of it in your head? Like, ⁓ I'm going to use that one day. Do you jot notes down at any point or? Robert Bailey: I will jot a note down normally as I'm writing. write it down. You never know when something like that's going to happen. I was at a book signing once in Scottsboro, Alabama at the Unclaimed Baggage Store, which is kind of a famous Scottsboro landmark. I was just signing books and a lady, four people back, was talking to somebody. And she was from Henniger, Alabama, which is a real tiny, like, you know, spot on the map. And she said something like, you know, I was over at Lamone's and you know, they have the only decent margarita in Henniger. And I like immediately like my head shot up and I was like, who said that? And so I talked to her and I just was drawn by it because, know, it's a Mexican restaurant. It's got a French kind of sounding name to it. And it's the only place you can get a decent margarita in Henniger, which, you know, Jennifer Jumba: Great. Robert Bailey: I can't even imagine wanting a margarita if I was going through Henneger. And so ⁓ I just thought it was really a cool thing for her to say. ⁓ And so in Rich Justice, one of my characters is having a margarita at Le Monde's and tell somebody, this is the only place you get one here. so I thought, so that's happened to me a few times where I'll hear somebody say something and think, well, I need to use that. Jennifer Jumba: Yes. Right. And you set this max series in your hometown, the town that you live in. So, ⁓ that's kind of fun, I would imagine. And when people read it, you know, to be able to see little nods to things, ⁓ you that they're familiar with. Robert Bailey: I did. It's very fun. It's a little scary sometimes because sometimes people think that they're the character and then maybe they're not. but I think that people. Right. But I think, you know, anytime you can mention real places and stories for me, it's an Easter egg, you know, a way to connect with the reader beyond the page. And ⁓ for people who've lived in Huntsville or just are vaguely familiar with Huntsville, if you've ever. Jennifer Jumba: Yeah. See all the people saying they're the Colonel. No. Robert Bailey: have the strawberry pretzel salad at the Dallas Middle Deli or Binda Bandino burrito, you where they do have a big sign that says serving up heartburn for 30 years, you know, or even the Moon Pot Johns in Newmarket. I mean, I really try to, I don't just do it for fun. Like it's got to be like organic to the story, but when it is, it really works well sometimes, I think. And it gets me more into the story. Jennifer Jumba: Yes. Yeah, it's nice to see when it dovetails. Robert Bailey: you know, it's easier for me to get excited if I've been there and I can kind of, you know, act like I would if I were there through the character. Jennifer Jumba: Right. What was it like writing Max because you're telling from a female perspective, whereas your other books have been driven by male protagonists. Robert Bailey: So there was a lot of fun. Like I've had ⁓ supporting characters who had their own point of view chapters, you know, in a lot of my books. I'm glad that I have that background, you know, in the, between, in the, Bo Sivas Hanes series and in the McMurtry books, know, Helen Lewis was a big character that had a lot of point of view chapters. And ⁓ in the Rich series, was Shea Lankford and Hattie Daniels. And so, you know, I, Jennifer Jumba: Mm-hmm, right. Robert Bailey: really enjoyed creating the female characters. And so for Max, it was a leap up because she's the main character. ⁓ so ⁓ it was a little scary. I wanted it to seem authentic. And I was a little weary. I didn't want ⁓ there to be any, as a man, especially now, you don't want somebody's comment to be, well, that's just a man trying to write a woman. Jennifer Jumba: Right? Right. Robert Bailey: I was a little scared of that. know, and so in the editing process, there's in all of my books in the editing process, there's always going to be cringy stuff that has to be deleted. And so there was definitely some of that in the first draft. And, and so just things that I just immediately thought, you know, Max wouldn't say that, or that sounds stupid. And I think we got most of that out. And I really, it, at the heart and soul of her, you know, she is. You know, a mom, you know, she's a mom and her son's in trouble and she's not perfect. You know, she's made some mistakes, but I love characters like that. You know, I think when, when I started writing the Jason Rich series, I really fell in love with the, characters that are fallible and we can recover their own fumbles. And I think it's more interesting to read about too, because, ⁓ you know, it's, it's, you have more meat on the bone to write a character like that. because conflict drives these stories. And so a lot of times it's more appealing if a character has literally put themselves in a bad position that they have to climb out of. so Max has some of that and then some of it's beyond her control. Jennifer Jumba: I think you did a fantastic job with her. So I'm glad, that that led you to her, being the main star in this book. ⁓ She has obviously it's kind like themes of what we do for family, right? she's a mom and you hear the stories all the time of the parents who, will lift a car off of, ⁓ their child or, ⁓ be able to run faster than they've run before because it's in of the wellbeing of their child. So Robert Bailey: Yeah. Jennifer Jumba: You have that aspect. At the same time, Max has a really great relationship with her father, even though her father's no longer here. Do you want to talk about how you added that to her background? Robert Bailey: Yeah, so the tundra, the white tundra that she drives is her dad's truck. So my dad drove a white tundra and I still drive it, you know. And, you know, when he died in 2017, my brother started driving his truck and then my brother got a new car and, you know, I'm father now with children of my own and so I always drive the oldest car. And so, you know, the truck was available and I started driving and of course, you know, when I first got in the truck, I could smell my father, you know, he still has his scent in it. And so I thought that was a neat detail that makes me feel good. And so I sort of projected that onto Max and thought of my dad when I thought of her dad. And so, and so when, you know, there's some trauma associated with the truck and it was almost more, a lot more traumatic for Max when, ⁓ because that was, that's kind of her tie to her dad. And the one person who did kind of never leave her side during, you know, her biggest trial of life. so, ⁓ I think, ⁓ I, know, that's always been a theme in my stories is, know, whether it's a father or a friend or, you know, a child, you know, those, those relationships that everybody can understand, you know, and having Having one that sort of feels unique to the character is important. Jennifer Jumba: It's certainly relatable. mean, I think we've all been there. We've experienced, loss of somebody that we care about and the certain places or certain ⁓ spaces evoke that memory where you find yourself in conversation with them, ⁓ I think is special. And I ⁓ love it adds ⁓ to story. I think it kind of gives her ⁓ that of, more being more than the bad things that Robert Bailey: Right. Jennifer Jumba: she's done, which I think everybody should have, that same sense. ⁓ But he kind of reinforces and kind of gives her like this hidden strength. I mean, she is, she's razor sharp. mean, nothing really gets past her while she's going back and forth between Perry and Stephanie, ⁓ which I think is ⁓ terrific. then also, she's a mediator, but she also has some of this like, ⁓ somewhat of an spirit where she can't just accept what's happening in those rooms. So that's not something that you do. I imagine what you do, you know, stays in those rooms. Robert Bailey: Right. Yeah. Correct. And that is definitely story driven, but I think because she has to settle it, you know, she does have to kind of take matters into her own hands. And I do think because she was a great trial lawyer, you know, some of those skills, you know, you do have to kind of investigate as a trial lawyer, at least know the questions to ask and where to look. so she has to kind of. you know, sort of dust herself off a little bit and re-engage some of that, that she really hasn't done in a long time. so that was, it was fun seeing her evolve sort of into the person that she, a new version of the person that she was before, you know, battle scarred. Jennifer Jumba: Yeah, I think she's able to see glimpses like, I am capable of doing this. I can do this and do it well and, you know, kind of, ⁓ I rehab, her reputation, in the field, which ⁓ I think is a really thing. Terrific character. So ⁓ just seeing that little bit of just in one book, I am looking forward to this being a series and seeing, the bigger Robert Bailey: Right. Right, exactly. Jennifer Jumba: character arc, do you have a plan for how many there will be in the series or is that still up in the air? Robert Bailey: Yeah. Yeah, so I know, you know, we're doing a second book and I'm working on that now. I'm kind of in the middle of the editing process of it. And it will pick up after the events of the first book, obviously, and it will, Max will continue to evolve. And, you know, she will have to face one of her big fears in the book too, which is going back into the courtroom again, you know, and. And she'll still be a mediator and she'll still love doing that, but she will kind of be thrust into having to go back. And, which is going to be a big moment for her and hopefully for the readers too, as she continues kind of her comeback. And, ⁓ and there's just, you know, I think anytime Max and Jason had some of this too, they have such personal stakes in these cases. It rises, raises, it amps up everything for the, for them and for the reader. And for me as the writer, and so I hope we hit the right notes with it, but I envision it going three books. You know, I think it'll be similar to the rich series in sort of an arc where, you know, the character hopefully will grow and evolve and have setbacks and hopefully, you know, get over them. But, and there'll be some new characters we introduce in book two and which is always fun and some, maybe some callbacks to. ⁓ Jennifer Jumba: like it. And then when you start another series, maybe Max has a role in that one. So it's just kind of fun to see how they're all interconnected. ⁓ Robert Bailey: Right. Yeah, I love doing that. always loved reading. Greg Iles was one of my biggest influences. We lost him last year and he really was a huge influence for me. loved his stories and I loved the way he was able to make some, sometimes Penn Cage was the main character and sometimes he just made a cameo. And I think for a fan, there's nothing better than that. It's really fun. Jennifer Jumba: ⁓ my goodness, mine too. Correct. Robert Bailey: ⁓ I really enjoy doing that. And sometimes it's just a cameo and sometimes it's a little bigger role. Jennifer Jumba: Yeah, terrific writer. think Penn Cage was one of like the first like characters as an adult that I kind of had a crush on, right? Like, that's a great guy, right? You know, as he does everything. Yeah, he's smart and he knows what to do and how to get out of these situations. yeah, yeah. Robert Bailey: Right? Yeah, Ben Cage was cool. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yes. I liked the Greg Isles universe is a really, it's he was very good at that world building and definitely a huge. Jennifer Jumba: Yeah, I mean, I can still see the scenes from those books, that he wrote, the series. ⁓ Yeah, ⁓ spectacular. I got to hear him speak once and was just kind of blown away. His thoughtful intentions. ⁓ Robert Bailey: Yeah, I really regret that I didn't hear him speak. Another person that does that really well, of course, is Michael Connolly with the Bosch and Haller and Renee Ballard. He really connects his universe well and it's fun to follow. Jennifer Jumba: Yes. Yeah, can I ask a question like as a as a writer, clearly you've written this book, it just published, you're ⁓ doing for book number two, how do you keep the story straight in your head? Because I imagine you're already starting to kind of noodle on book number three. Like, how do you not give away something accidentally? When you're talking about book number one, what on your book tour? What you know, this Robert Bailey: Mm-hmm. It's. It is hard when they ask about book two, particularly with this book, you know, to set up, you know, the storyline for book two without giving away the ending of book one. And all I can really say is what I've told you ⁓ is that it will be a sequel. will involve a return to the courtroom. But if I gave much more away, it would sort of, it would sort of give away. Jennifer Jumba: Right. No, I don't. No, no, no. No, because I can't wait to like, yeah, like suspend. Robert Bailey: the ending to book one, but I do. And that's, that's been my life for the last decade is I, You're working on one book, you're promoting either the one right before it or one completely different. It was a little easier last year because I was promoting the boomerang and writing the mediator and the universes are separate. Um, but, uh, particularly when it's a series, is, it, my brain can get scrambled and it is. Jennifer Jumba: Mm-hmm. Robert Bailey: I do have difficulty working on two projects at once. I, ⁓ particularly when I'm not completely finished with one and, I wish I was a little better at that, ⁓ because, ⁓ I think we all have this built in procrastination meter or whatever. And I wish I was a little better at, ⁓ sort of manipulating my mind into thinking more in terms of, ⁓ we need to get this done in two weeks, even if it's really not, that's really not the deadline, you know, Jennifer Jumba: No, I think it speaks to the pacing on your page, ⁓ And does that feel? mean, ⁓ this place over three days. ⁓ I it very quickly, not ⁓ in days, in less than three days. ⁓ And know it took you more than three days to write. So how does ⁓ that with you? Like, I just spent months and months on this book and edits and line edits, and you just knocked it out in a weekend. Robert Bailey: Deadlines. Right. Yeah. Right. Right. It's, you know, that's the whole goal. You know, you hope to entertain and inspire people and you hope that when they get to about 50 pages left of the book, that they start off have that slow down because they they're sad. It's about to be over. mean, I have that from time to time and it's, that's the goal. But, ⁓ I think, you know, it really is a performance activity. so a lot of times, you know, If I'm writing fast, it's normally a good thing. Like if I can, I finished the first draft of the mediator in about six weeks, it's probably the fastest I've ever written a first draft. ⁓ but, ⁓ it's got my, my process has gotten faster now that I'm able to do it full time. And, ⁓ and you know, that's happened to me before I wrote the last 250 pages of the final reckoning over about a five day period, but it was really fast ending to that story and the writing of it. Jennifer Jumba: Wow. Robert Bailey: in sort of a intense pace was helpful, you know. And I do think as a reader, when I'm reading something I really like, particularly once I hit about page 200 of a 350 page book, I really don't want to stop. And the writing is that way too. Once I can see the light at the end of the tunnel, I want to get there as fast as I can because a lot of times some of the magic that can happen that really makes it good happens in that sort of ⁓ intense period. So it's a, it's a buzz. really is kind of a natural buzz to where you are just sort of, ⁓ all of the neurons are firing and that doesn't happen all the time. And when it does, I really like to keep it as long as I can. Jennifer Jumba: I would keep doing whatever you're doing because every book continues to be incredibly successful. And I have no doubt that the mediator, starring Max Ringo will will be the same as a ⁓ as a reader. Can you that writing part of your brain and just truly enjoy the story or you somebody who's kind of always in the back going, gosh, I wouldn't have led with that or I'm not sure I appreciate that structure. Robert Bailey: Well, thank you. I can, the most part, I ⁓ enjoy reading without being kind of ⁓ a writer, ⁓ critique, or occasionally I will see something that I really like, you know, and I'll think, wow, you know, like I read the first three chapters of Razor Blade Tears by Cosby. ⁓ ⁓ I was really, it's like one of the few times I've had like just immediate professional jealousy, like the setup for that story was just amazing. Jennifer Jumba: ⁓ yes. Mm-hmm. Robert Bailey: And I was jealous like that. hadn't come up with an idea like that. Of he's the only one that could have written that story. But ⁓ and so so I do when it's really done well, you know, I notice it. And but I just read Theo of Golden, which is kind of one of the books this year. I don't know if you've read it yet, but. ⁓ my gosh, I mean. Jennifer Jumba: Right. It's on my list and it's sitting over on that. Robert Bailey: It was so good. I was just a true, like after about 50 pages, it was like I was back in high school reading something I loved. You know, it was really, really good. And, and so that's still out there for me. And I'm happy that I can read something and still feel kind of giddy that it's, it's that good. Jennifer Jumba: Yeah. Did you know you wanted to be a writer? I know you, went to school, you got a ⁓ degree history and then decided to go to law school. At what point did you decide you wanted to be a reader? Was it something that was always kind of in your background? You just referenced like being in high school reading something that completely captured you. Robert Bailey: Yeah, I think ⁓ probably when I was, you know, when I was a senior in high school, our AP English teacher had us write like a monthly journal. It the first creative writing I ever did. And I really enjoyed that. And then when I got to college, my senior year, they offered a creative writing class where a real author taught us and we wrote four short stories, which, you know, I wrote them and they were terrible, you know, but they were. ⁓ They weren't terrible enough to where I didn't get a few good comments. And ⁓ I've always loved reading novels. And ⁓ so I, when I was in law school, the idea for the professor came and I read Stephen King's book on writing, like thousands upon thousands upon millions of other writers have. And it was very ⁓ inspiring just because it was so practical, the advice was. it kind of. Jennifer Jumba: Yes. Robert Bailey: allowed me just sort of permission in my head to like give it a shot and to read a lot of things that I probably wouldn't have read if I hadn't have read that book. So all of that kind of came together for me to give it a shot. Jennifer Jumba: I'm so glad, you know, there's somebody kind of reading or, ⁓ we'll reading very shortly, The Mediator and going, man, I wish I would have thought of that. may you have your razor blade tears moment too, you know? ⁓ great, great book. ⁓ One the things that look for is, you know, language in books. I mean, there's Robert Bailey: I hope so. Yeah. Jennifer Jumba: there's different theories about why people read, you know, to be entertained or to learn or to escape and what attracts people to a book. You some people will say character, some people will say it's the story, some people will say it's the setting language. You know, it's kind of a myriad for me. I tend to be very character driven and will read pretty much anything if it has a great character. Like I found myself reading a little bit of horror, which is typically not my genre, but Robert Bailey: Right. Jennifer Jumba: because it has great characters in. ⁓ But thinking about Max and some of the lessons she learned from rehab and one of the things she said is that sometimes there were no answers. ⁓ she learned that painful lesson in rehab. And I think how wise that is, and I don't know if she realizes how wise it is when she says it, because I think sometimes as humans we're searching for answers. ⁓ there aren't always... ⁓ Robert Bailey: Right? Jennifer Jumba: answers and trying to reconcile that fact. Robert Bailey: Yeah. Yep. Sometimes there's just choices that you have to make, you know, and they're not even right or wrong. They just, you have to make them. And Max is, ⁓ you know, I really tried to strip her bare in terms of like where she is at the beginning of the story, you know, grateful for a second chance. And then I think, her quest in the story kind of, she recaptures some of. who she was before, you I love music, you know, I'm very cheesy in my music taste. And so, you know, for me, it's helpful when I have a song that can attach to a character. And for Max, the lunatic French song, you know, was kind of, you know, I was able to throw that in and it helped me sort of connect with her because ⁓ I love that movie that, you know, the vision quest movie and the fact that that's her favorite movie and she plays that movie to. Jennifer Jumba: Yes. No. Robert Bailey: song to psych her up is something that I think a lot of people do. You know, they have a song like that that kind of gets them. Right. Exactly. Jennifer Jumba: Yeah. Well, all players do. They normally have walk-up music, right? So like, why shouldn't, a mediator like Max Ringo have her own walk-up music? Why not? Yeah. And then you have ⁓ the and ⁓ he's with, I shouldn't say stuck because I'm a huge fan of the Lumineers and ⁓ Zach Brian, but that song. So, you know, great choices because they kind of reflect. ⁓ Robert Bailey: Why not, right? Right. Yes. Jennifer Jumba: Because, you know, of course I see it. And so I have to pull it up and listen to it. And I was like, oh, that's perfect. to hear it alongside, what I'm reading. So quite fun. And then I think, kind of thinking about Max trying to, reinvent herself. She said it was good to be looking forward to the future, but before she could walk into the light, she needed closure from the darkness. well said. Robert Bailey: Right. Yeah, think, yeah, that's something I think ⁓ a lot of people feel and I think we all go through hard times. And so it's helpful to sort of put a lid on the past and then move forward. Jennifer Jumba: Agreed. It's stage advice. should be like on a cross-stitch simpler above a wall or on a pillow. Right? ⁓ So as we're wrapping up, I mean, I could continue to talk to you, but the challenge with ⁓ talking to thriller ⁓ writers is that I don't want to give any spoilers. ⁓ And so far we've done okay. So this is Story's End. Robert Bailey: Right. Right. Right, Yes. Jennifer Jumba: the final five questions. So in this book, The Mediator, Catacomb 435 is a premier speak easy. Was this inspired by firsthand experience? Robert Bailey: Yes, it was. Yes, it was. I have been there ⁓ once with my wife and we had a phenomenal time. And the whole time I was there, I was like, I'm going to set a scene in my novel in this place because it is so cool and it's perfect for what I want to transpire. so, Jennifer Jumba: Yeah, the setting and then the setting within the setting in that part of the book. It was great. Do you have any superstitions when you're writing? Robert Bailey: Right. ⁓ I, that's a good question. I don't think so. I, I have developed a tremendous respect for momentum. And so if once I get rolling with, especially with the first draft, I almost never veer from my routine, even if I don't get enough sleep or even if I need to like take a nap in the middle of the day, I've got to get up and do my sessions. call them sessions, you know, like these two, two and a half hour sessions where I just. Jennifer Jumba: Okay. Robert Bailey: you know, clear out and write, and then I'll take a little break and clear my mind and then go back. And, you know, I try to get three a day when I'm really rolling and, ⁓ but at least two. And, ⁓ and so that, ⁓ you know, my superstition is just don't lose a day when you're writing a first draft. Cause if you lose a day, it's usually going to cost you two or three days. Jennifer Jumba: Okay. Right, yeah, it's really easy to get out of a routine or back into a routine, I should say. ⁓ What's the last photo on your camera roll? Robert Bailey: Yeah. Yes. The last photo on my camera roll. That's a good question. I think that I was in, ⁓ Easter picture. We were at a place called The Ledges in Huntsville and we took a picture of the family before we went in and ate lunch. Jennifer Jumba: Easter. Nice. You have two boys, right? Robert Bailey: two college boys and an eighth grade girl. Jennifer Jumba: Okay, wow. Robert Bailey: Yeah. Jennifer Jumba: fun. So you're now hosting a late night show. Who's your first guest? Robert Bailey: First guest on the late night show. ⁓ The first name that popped into my head was Kevin Costner. I'm a huge Yellowstone fan and love all his 80s and 90s movies and think he would be a fun, a fun interview. Jennifer Jumba: Yeah. Agreed. And also a big fan of Yellowstone. I think sometimes I must have no soul because the darker the show, the more I like it. ⁓ Or maybe it just me feel better. Like things aren't so bad here. Like it ⁓ could be like ⁓ branded and yeah, off. What song is always on a road trip playlist? Robert Bailey: Right. I know, I know. Exactly. What song is always on a road trip playlist? I love the song. ⁓ What is it? Wagon Wheel. ⁓ Wagon Wheel by Darius Rucker and earlier, I can't remember the name of the band that made it, that first did it. But I love that song. Rock Me Mama Like a Wagon Wheel. We always play that on the way to the beach. It's kind of a get in the mood song. So that's a good one and that's the one that first comes to mind. Jennifer Jumba: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Great choice. It's nice to see him doing country. He's got such a great voice. Robert Bailey: Right, he's so good at it. Jennifer Jumba: I want to say thank you to of you listening. A huge thank you to you, Bailey. The Mediator is the first in a new series starring Max Ringo and just published this week. So be sure to get in from the beginning and then you'll likely want to read his other series, whether it's the unlikely pairing of a young lawyer with his former law professor. with his McMurdy and Drake series or Ambulance Chaser attorney Jason Rich, who we see make a cameo in this book. I'm sure you will find yourself on the edge of your seat and cheering for these characters. To find out who else is visiting, go to storiedaccount.com. This is Storied Account with Jen Jumba. Robert Bailey: you