Latest / Indie Film Hustle® - A Filmmaking Podcast / IFH 701: Writing for TV/Streaming Platforms in Today's World with Michael Jamin

Transcript

IFH 701: Writing for TV/Streaming Platforms in Today's World with Michael Jamin · Indie Film Hustle® - A Filmmaking Podcast

0:03
You are listening to the IFH podcast Network. For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting
0:08
podcasts, just go to IFAH podcast network dot com. Welcome to the Indie
0:13
Film Hustle Podcast, Episode number seven. No One Television has raised writing to
0:19
a new low. Samuel Goldwin broadcasting from the back alley in Hollywood. It's
0:25
the Indie Film Hustle Podcast, where we show you how to survive and thrive
0:30
as an indie filmmaker in the jungles of the film biz. And here's your
0:33
host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome, Welcome to another episode of the Indie Film
0:39
Hustle Podcast. I am your humble host, Alex Ferrari. Today's show is
0:42
sponsored by Rise of the Film Entrepreneur How to turn your independent film into a
0:46
profitable business. It's harder today than ever before for independent filmmakers to make money
0:51
with their films, from predatory film distributors ripping them off to huckster film aggregators
0:56
who prey upon them. The odds are stacked against the indie filmmaker. The
1:00
old distribution model of making money with your film is broken and there needs to
1:04
be a change. The future of independent filmmaking is the entrepreneurial filmmaker, or
1:10
the film entrepreneur. In Rise of the Film Entrepreneur, I break down how
1:14
to actually make money with your film projects and show you how to turn your
1:18
indie film into a profitable business. With case studies examining successes and failures.
1:23
This book shows you the step by step method to turn your passion into a
1:27
profitable career. If you're making a feature film, series, or any other
1:32
kind of video content, the Film Entrepreneur method will set you up for success.
1:37
The book is available in paperback, ebook, and of course audiobook.
1:42
If you want to order it, just head over to www dot film bizbook
1:46
dot com. That's film bizbook dot com. Now today on the show,
1:52
we have writer and showrunner Michael Jammin Now. Michael has been writing in Hollywood
1:57
for television since the mid nineties on shows like Just Shoot Me, King of
2:02
the Hill, Pavis and Butthead, Wilford, Out of Practice, Rules of
2:07
Engagement, and more recently Tacoma f D. And he's been the showrunner of
2:12
shows like Marin and Retin Link's Buddy System for YouTube. And I wanted to
2:17
bring Michael on the show to talk about writing for television from the showrunner's perspective
2:24
and not only the craft of writing, but the politics in the business of
2:29
running a television show, what it's really like behind the scenes. And Michael
2:36
does not hold back, which is fantastic. So, without any further ado,
2:39
please enjoy my conversation with Michael Jammin. I'd like to welcome to show,
2:46
Michael Jammin Man. How you doing good? Thank you for having me.
2:49
Oh, thank you man. We're just trying to survive the COVID on
2:53
slots right now in our industry. Yeah, I hear you. It's not
2:57
easy out there. It's not easy. And actually I don't foresee it getting
3:00
any better anytime in the near future. No, I don't even know how
3:05
they thought it was going to get better. It was like, how do
3:06
you put people on a set together? Like I like, they're all gonna
3:08
be garing masks on camera? How does that kind of work? So I
3:12
don't know. We'll talk about we'll talk about like specifically TV because at least
3:15
features you might be able to get outside a lot and maybe you can make
3:17
some stuff work on location, but or you just shoot in New Zealand,
3:22
which is obviously COVID free. Yeah, but they don't want us there,
3:24
Nobody wants us anywhere the world. Right now, that's another podcast for another
3:32
time. All right, So before we get started, how did you get
3:36
into the business. Well, right, you know, in high school,
3:40
that's why I wanted to be a comedy right. I saw Cheers on TV.
3:43
I was like, that's what I want to do with my life like
3:46
that, you know. And then I went to college and two weeks after
3:49
gratulage, I got into my car drove La and I didn't know anyone,
3:53
and I was like, well, I'm I'm not gonna leave until by making
3:57
And so I struggled a couple of years. I was a pe for a
4:00
couple of years. I run on some horrible projects. But then I finally
4:02
broke in with my partner and we got a job as a staff writer on
4:06
a show called Just Shoot Me, and then we've been working ever since.
4:11
That's actually I remember that show. That was a pretty popular show back in
4:14
the day. Yeah, yeah, that was a big show. Yeah.
4:15
And that was your first gig in the in the writing room. Yeah yeah,
4:19
staff writer, yeah, staff Right, how did okay, So okay,
4:21
let's let's let's dissect that for a second. How did you get that
4:25
first page, Like, how did you get that gig? Because it's not
4:27
easy to become a staff writer. Even even at that time, it was
4:30
still fairly competitive, not as competitive as as now, but it was still
4:33
fairly competitive. How did you get in? How did like did you use
4:36
a sample? How did it work? To be honest, with my first
4:40
job before that, I was I was an assistant for executive producers and they
4:45
were running a TV show, so I was answering their phones. And then
4:47
they gave us my partner a script and they were running a show called Lowis
4:51
and Clark Superman of course, right, so that was my first professional script
4:56
they gave us. They say, okay, we'll let you pitch, and
4:58
we pitched a up ideas and my loved one, and that one became like
5:01
a big there, you know, for Lowis and Clark. So with that
5:06
we were kind of able to solicit agents, and then we found an agent
5:11
and my together my partner, we must have written probably eight or ten spect
5:15
scripts together, and the first one we wrote was a friends but a spect
5:20
script, and then we kept on writing because we didn't get any more work.
5:24
But ironically that script got into the hands of Steve Levitan's assistant when he
5:29
was staffing for Just Shoot Me. The first script that was the one that
5:32
got us work, even though we had written eight others after that. So
5:34
it was your very first script, which they always say, it's the garbage
5:38
script, is the one that we're told going to look at just it's a
5:41
sacrificial lamp in your exactly exactly. The agent was like, not that good,
5:46
you know whatever, that's the one that got us work. You know,
5:49
she's no longer our agent anymore, obviously. Obviously we'll talk about agents
5:54
in a little bit, which I know, I'm sure you have a lot
5:56
to say about. Um so, so you so that was the big question
6:00
a lot of I always talked to screenwriters, and they always want to write
6:03
like an original if they want to get into television or now television's least streaming,
6:08
which is basically the same thing at this point, all right, They
6:12
always like, I want to do I want to like write an original,
6:14
or I want to write a pilot and that's going to be my writing sample.
6:17
Right? Do you suggest writing sample scripts of existing popular shows just as
6:23
a writing sample or to go in with a fresh idea? You know what,
6:28
that's a really good question. Like back when I broke in, it
6:30
was easier because there's four networks and everyone knew the big shows by Signol Friends,
6:34
Like everyone watched those shows. Now, what's the one show that everyone's
6:38
watching? There? Really aren't that For sitcoms, it's really it's just Tiger
6:42
King obviously, but other than that, like last year there was a Big
6:46
Bang theory, but that's no longer you know, on the air, so
6:49
or maybe Barries the big Hit, but that's still that's not like it's a
6:53
great show. Everyone's watching it. Everyone was. I mean big Bang was
6:57
probably it was. Big Bang was kind of like the last run of that
7:00
of those kind of sitcomflic Friends or Cheers or sign Fat, that was the
7:08
last one. Is there one going? Modern Family just left exactly So there
7:12
really there really isn't. Uh So that's why people are writing original stuff.
7:17
But the problem was the original is like that's a whole different skill set creating
7:21
characters in a world and a fresh original pod. Like if when I'm hiring
7:26
in a show, I don't need to know if you can do that.
7:28
I need to know if you can write for existing characters. I don't need
7:30
to know if you can create your own. That's not the job requirement.
7:33
And so I think it's a lot harder for people trying to break in now
7:36
because they have to show original work just because no one's no one's watching those
7:42
other shows. You can't reallyspect those other shows. So the bar is a
7:46
little unfair. That's why. Yeah, it's it's a it's a little unfair
7:49
for people breaking in. So would you So if if I want to get
7:53
a job on Stranger Things or on or on you know, on any of
7:58
the like it's a Netflix streaming sitcom one day at a time, let's say
8:03
just come to mind, Um, do you write a spec script for that
8:07
show? No? No, because you'll never do it as well, And
8:11
whoever reads it was like, that's not that's that's how that doesn't go on.
8:15
That's not how it works. They'll they'll be like, that's not no,
8:18
you didn't catch the voice and you never will it. Like the best
8:20
way not to get hired on the show is to spect that show. Like
8:24
I remember even when I was on to just shoot me reading specs for just
8:26
shooting me going that's not no, no no, And you know, because
8:30
all but everyone's writing like Nina, like a giant whore and like Nina's not
8:33
all who But I can see why you're watching that show why you think that.
8:37
But for us on the inside, there's a there's a very fine line
8:39
that we play on how we create, you know, write for those characters.
8:43
So you're never gonna get it as an outsider. So if you want
8:46
to get a job on one day at a time, don't submit a one
8:48
day at time speck. So you always do something of another show popular in
8:54
that same kind of genre, exactly the same tone right right now. Now,
8:58
how do you when you're in a writer's room, because you've been a
9:01
showrunner and you've been a staff writer, Yeah, when you're when you're in
9:05
the writer's room, which we'll talk about the future of writer's rooms as a
9:09
general statement, but when you're working, when you're working in a writer's room,
9:15
what is the dynamic of a sitcom, you know, a fully functioning,
9:20
you know, hitting at all cylinders kind of writer's room in a comedy
9:22
world. I've been I've been in some great writing room and some ones that
9:28
are not that great. Uh. It all kind of depends. The tone
9:31
of the show is dependent on the showrunner. What kind of are they collaborative
9:35
or they kind of jerks? You know, you got all sorts. Obviously,
9:39
the job of a staff writer, I think I think many peo will
9:43
make this mistake and they think that your job is to make the best show
9:46
possible, which is not what your job is. Your job as a staff
9:50
writer, and that any level that could be the bottom staff writer too,
9:52
all the way to co exact. We'll be right back after a word from
9:58
our sponsor, and now back to the show. Your job is to make
10:05
the best version of the show that the coach showrunner wants to make. And
10:09
there's a big difference, so you could there's no point arguing with the show
10:13
runner about what's going to be good or bad. That's up for him or
10:16
her to decide. And see your job to please them. You know,
10:20
you don't shouldn't argue and say no I think americle will like this. That's
10:24
not for you to say because no, I mean, you know, you
10:26
just do it your boss, give your boss what your boss wants. So
10:28
it's very much of a hierarchy system in television, much more than the features.
10:35
Oh yeah, yeah yeah. And also you know, as a higher
10:37
up you go, the more responsibility, the more you're expected to contribute.
10:41
So a staff writer doesn't isn't expected to do the same amount of work as
10:46
a co executive producer. And so sometimes I think, well, that person
10:50
is talking X amount of time. I need to talk x as much,
10:54
but you don't. You have to talk. They're paid, they're getting paid
10:56
a lot more than you, so you don't have to do as much,
10:58
so you don't need to fight with them, you know, so when you
11:01
do it, Because that's the one thing. I always see thousands of co
11:05
executives and executives, producers and all these credits when I see my shows,
11:09
can you explain what these are? Because I mean, yes, it is
11:13
it just because it's it gets stupid sometimes, like literally I will. I'll
11:16
watch a show and there's ten or fifteen co executives and then executive producers and
11:22
then the creator and it's like there's just so many. Can you explain why
11:26
that is? Right? So you have the showrunner and that's the boss,
11:28
the head writer, that person's usually the executive producer. But from the starting,
11:33
from the bottom, you have the staff, the writing staff. The
11:35
lowest FO writer is a staff writer, and then you get then you get
11:39
story editor, executive story editor, go up to co producer, producer,
11:45
supervising producer, co executive producer. Usually the co executives maybe like the number
11:48
two, the second in command when the executive producer out of the room.
11:52
And then you have other executive producers who might be a manager, they might
11:58
be talent, might have a credit. You might have executive producer who created
12:01
the who sold the book that it's based on. So there's a lot of
12:05
people who are non writing executive producers that might get a current credit, but
12:09
they're not writers. Is that and also some network executives might be in that
12:13
world, so um, yeah, student, yeah, absolutely. How do
12:18
you deal with studio and executives that come in and just smile and you smile
12:26
a lot and uh huh and just say no, I'm not going to go
12:28
do that behind the closed doors. Sometimes you get great advice and great notes
12:33
and sometimes you don't. But that's part of the you know, when you
12:37
work as a writer and you're getting paid, part of the job is to
12:39
like listen, you know, you got to take your ego out of the
12:43
game and you have to play ball. You have to be nice and polite.
12:45
If you fight everybody, you know you can. You want to use
12:46
them as allies, so you want to work with them. And if you
12:50
can give them a note, you give them a note, you give them
12:54
take their note. Now, can you talk a little bit about the politics
12:58
inside a television right world? Just what a television show in general? There's
13:03
politics involved, there's politics and everything. Yeah, I think it's something that's
13:05
not really spoken about. So, like a lot of the stuff you've just
13:09
said are invaluable little tips like um, you don't tell the executive, the
13:16
showrunner or the co executive, like no, I think the character would do
13:18
this. If you're a staff writer, that's not kind of the hierarchy.
13:22
I think you'll get, you'll get, you'll get, you'll get axed fairly,
13:26
see half all the time, really because it's ego and you're not going
13:30
to win that battle. Well it's I think it's because staff writers want to
13:33
prove, they want to prove their job. They want to prove that they
13:35
can contribute, and the easiest way for them to prove that they contribute is
13:41
by shitting on your idea. That's what they think. And so because it's
13:45
much harder to come up with a good idea, it's very hard to come
13:46
up with an idea that we're gonna that you're gonna use. It's much easier
13:50
to say why your idea is terrible or why it's not going to work.
13:54
And they think that's part of the creative process, but it really, it
13:56
really isn't. In the room, there's an expression it's pitched don't bitch.
14:00
So if you have a problem, don't come up with a problem. Come
14:03
up with a solution, and then everyone will love you. But don't point
14:05
out problems unless you have a solution. And so a lot of times,
14:11
a lot of times you'll hear writers do exactly that. They're like, oh,
14:13
there's this and this and this, Well, well, how do you
14:16
fix it? Well, I don't know, Yes, let you know that,
14:20
writer off, I didn't know what I was doing, so I was
14:20
like, well, I might as well just tell you what that. You're
14:22
doing something wrong as opposed to me doing something positive. So we're all guilty
14:26
of that is if I see it all the time with staff writers all the
14:31
time. So as far as the politics are involved, the hierarchy is that
14:33
the show runner is the absolute boss. Yeah, you know, other than
14:39
the studio maybe above him. That's pain. Yeah, right, The show
14:43
runners never really the boss the shit, you know, because there's always someone
14:46
telling you what you're doing wrong. It could be the studio, it could
14:48
be the star. It give you the network. So even when you're the
14:52
boss, you're never the boss. So it also depends on what where you
14:54
are in the In the lifespan of that show first season, everyone's kind of
15:01
hanging out. We're all trying to figure out what we're gonna get picked up
15:05
for the next season. Yeah, everyone's operating out of fear, especially exactly
15:09
so when you when a series has been around for four or five seasons,
15:13
let's say, then the power shift could be different. It could be the
15:18
showrunner, it could be the star that's not become a star. And now
15:22
they start they start throwing their weight around a little bit more, and they're
15:26
like, you know what, I have an idea, yea, and I
15:28
think we should go I think we shouldn't make this character do this now.
15:33
And the entire the entire writer's room goes that's a horrible idea. And then
15:37
the showrunners like, if I don't appease the the star, this is going
15:41
to be a problem. But if I do appiece of star, the whole
15:43
show is going to go down the hill. So am I am I speaking?
15:46
That's it definitely happens, definitely happens. Yeah, what's how do you?
15:52
So as a showrunner, I have to ask you how do you deal
15:54
with that? Like how do you deal with like these kind of influences coming
15:58
in from all over? And it's your job to keep the boat on the
16:02
path that you feel is the right path. I know this is this is
16:07
just land mines everywhere. Yeah, it's it's definitely hard when you know,
16:11
I've had my partner, I've had some easy experiences and that we read a
16:15
show called Marins during Mark Marin and he was in the writer's room the whole
16:18
time. So because he's one of the writers and so we didn't have there
16:22
was never a power struggle because he was in there the whole time and if
16:25
he had a problem with something's, okay, here, let's figure it out
16:27
together. I think it becomes trickier when the star is not in the writer's
16:32
room, when you put him in the writer's room and say, Okay,
16:33
we're gonna work this out. We're gonna figure this out, and then they
16:36
go, oh, I'm going to be here all night and then suddenly the
16:38
suddenly they play ball. But if your stars not in the writer's room,
16:42
and they'll go, Okay, you're going to be here all night, I'm
16:45
going home, and that's when things get ugly. Yeah, so fix it
16:48
and I'll see you in the morning. Yeah. Yeah, but we've had
16:51
experiences, so yeah, and it goes I'm sure, and I'm assuming you
16:55
have horror stories and you have stories that are fantastic, and it's like,
16:59
oh, that's just a pleasure to work Like Maren, I'm assuming he's I've
17:02
heard great things about him and yeah, really he was always game, Like
17:06
you picked something to him and be crazy and you'd go, okay, I'll
17:07
do that, and you look really because he was just game. So he's
17:12
very open. Yeah. So so let's talk a little bit about COVID right
17:15
now, because we're, as we're recording this, we're in the middle of
17:18
COVID. It's we're arguably still in the first wave of this thing. I
17:23
remember a month ago or a month and a half ago, Hollywood was reopening.
17:29
It was going to be new guidelines. And as I was and I
17:32
was as they were announcing all this, and the unions were signing off on
17:34
stuff and all of this. I'm just going to myself, this is you
17:38
guys are insane. I know everybody wants to go back, right, If
17:41
the insurance would never sign, they would never sign off on it, So
17:45
it doesn't matter if everyone too, right. I was going to say,
17:48
that's like if someone gets sick on your set and then someone God forbid dies
17:53
because of it. Yeah, you're liable as a production. So unless you've
17:59
got some coverage, you are leaving yourself wide open. And then of course
18:03
there's the I think there were some productions that were wanting the actors and the
18:07
and the and the crew to sign off waivers going if you get COVID,
18:11
it's on you, yeah, right right, And I think I think SAG
18:15
said no, no, no, no, no, we're not. Yeah,
18:19
we're taking out a few animated projects just because that seems to be the
18:23
only thing that's safe right now. Right and so okay, So with COVID,
18:27
how is you know rom writer's rooms are still going right now? Um,
18:32
but in a zoom style process because a lot of the late night shows
18:37
are still going from home. Yeah, and they have writer's rooms. And
18:42
I was watching an interview with m Trevor Noh and they're like, yeah,
18:45
the first couple of weeks were just like on top of each other. Who's
18:48
muted, who's not muted, who's who's talking, who's not. But then
18:52
he goes but then we just got into it. Have you had any experience
18:55
with no I was on the last show. I was on to com f
18:57
D and that's a live action show. But it hasn't come back for I'm
19:00
sure it will, but it hasn't come back yet for the third season,
19:03
so I don't know what the plant and if they are going to pick them
19:06
up for the third season. I think they are, but I'm not sure
19:08
when because when can they shoot it? So I don't know what the what
19:12
the network's plan is on that. So we haven't I haven't been in a
19:15
virtual writer's room yet. How do you how do you feel it's going to
19:18
work? And you're from your big I think I think for it to work,
19:22
it has to be a small room. I think you can't have the
19:26
same number writers as you used to because everyone's talking over each other. You
19:30
know, what is what is what is the standard ters room? In the
19:33
comedy Gilds, they're getting smaller now, because especially if you go to cable
19:37
and the budgets get smaller, maybe eight writers. But on Marin first season,
19:41
we there was just four of us. Four of us. There's four
19:45
of us, yeah, and Mark was one of them. We'll be right
19:48
back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show.
19:56
But that's actually a pretty tight that's me. That's tiny because you have to
20:00
do thirteen episodes and then that means everyone has to write a ton and you
20:04
only have like ten weeks of pre production. It was really, it was
20:08
it was you know, it was stressful. We had to bang that thing
20:11
out. So that's a great that's a good segue to the next question.
20:17
You obviously started in the traditional television world when there was only four major networks,
20:25
and now a thousand networks with twenty thousand shows. Budgets have started to
20:32
drop, drop, drop, drop drop dramatically, because it's just the nature
20:37
of the beats. And you've worked on both sides, and you've worked on
20:38
cable shows, you've worked on streaming shows. How do you adjust because the
20:45
budgets, the budgets keep going down and down. Right when we did Marin,
20:51
that was the first show my partner I ran, and I remember put
20:53
the budget on that was about a third of what a network show was,
20:56
and so a network show you might shoot in five days. Marin, we
20:59
had to shoot in two and ep days, each episode of two days.
21:02
And I remember getting a tour. They put us up in some kind of
21:04
dumpy building in Glendale. It's some kind of low rent a production office,
21:08
and the woman was giving me a tour of the office and Ruin from the
21:11
studios giving me a tour of the office. If she goes, I shouldn't
21:14
tell you this, but we're all laughing at you in the office, and
21:15
I'm like, yeah, you shouldn't, Like why are you laughing? And
21:19
she goes, because your budgets so low, we don't think you could make
21:22
it. And I was like, this is not what I needed to hear
21:26
on my first day as a showrunner. And I said, well, do
21:29
we get to have a whiteboard? I meant it, I like, do
21:32
we have a whiteboard? And she goes, we have a supply room full
21:34
of whiteboards. You can have as many whiteboards as you want. And I
21:37
was like, oh, nope, we'll figure it out. That that's no
21:40
problem. You just write to what you can do so that needs when you
21:41
have when you're write a scene, you don't write a scene in an amusement
21:44
park. You write a scene in someone's backyard. You know, you just
21:48
make it small, and you just change the way. You're right, it's
21:49
and and when you watch the show, sometimes scenes were portly lit. Sometimes
21:55
the coverage was a little lacking, But no one, the critics never said
21:57
that. The critics never said the scene was dark. The critics never said,
22:00
oh, why is a Crammel sheet. You know, they were like,
22:03
hey, this is great the writing. They comment on the writing and
22:04
the acting, and so no one said, you know, they were kind
22:08
because no one watching a show for the lighting. You're not going to watch
22:11
a show on that comedy, specifically, in that comedy comedy. You're not
22:14
gonna say, what a wallet show. If it's no good, you're going
22:17
to turn it off, you know, right, that's the that's icing.
22:21
It's not the it's not the foundation, it's not the main meat of the
22:23
cake. If you will. Now, there was another thing I wanted to
22:26
ask you about the world of the side Fells. The friends, the cheers,
22:33
residuals of those shows are our legendary I mean, the Friends cast still
22:41
makes I'm sure the writing staff still makes up scene amounts. Like you get
22:45
one show and it's a hit for eight or ten seasons. You're good.
22:48
You don't have to work anymore. Well, not so much for a writer.
22:52
For a writer, you used to get half every time in the airs,
22:55
you got half half of what you half and half and half. And
22:56
then it gets it's you know, it's a it's a you know, calculus,
23:00
it's a limit. You there's an extent. You reach a cap and
23:03
you'll never make more than that because it gets half half and half. Right.
23:06
And then but now the bots are going to like Netflix, and they
23:07
just give you a one time fee, right, So they bought out and
23:11
you don't really get residuals. You get like a one time check, right.
23:14
So that that changes the whole conversation because the days of a Modern Family,
23:21
the days of Friends, but even Modern Family that just finished this year,
23:27
those those residual packages. The studios are just trying to go away from
23:30
that because they're like, oh wait a minute, Netflix doesn't doing it,
23:33
so why do we have to do it? Now? Even Disney's like,
23:36
yeah, we're gonna give you like two runs of residuals and that's pretty much
23:38
it, guys, And that's for everybody's staff and everything. So that really
23:41
changes the game for not only actors, but for showrunners. For creators,
23:47
these these really fat packages that they would get in the back end are going
23:52
away a session. Yeah, yeah, how what's you're feeling on that?
23:56
How has that changed the way you think about your career moving and specifically because
24:00
you you obviously started back in the day when those packages were still around,
24:06
and they are still around to a certain extent in the network world, yeah
24:10
for some people. But how does that change the trajectory of a writer's career
24:15
because before you kind of like, we're looking forward to those that mailbox money.
24:21
Yeah, it's it makes it a lot harder to be honest as a
24:23
middle cast writer as it's kind of squeezes you out because people we used to
24:26
rely on those residuals and now they're just they're not there anymore, and the
24:30
network the orders are shorter and shorter. So in the past, I was
24:33
on Just Shooting Me. You do twenty four episodes a year and you get
24:36
paid per episode. Now you'll be on a cable show, you'll do maybe
24:38
eight or ten episodes the season and then you got to find another job.
24:42
You have to somehow, you know, another job. Yeah. Yeah,
24:47
So it's definitely it's squeezing out. It's gonna squeeze out writers. It's going
24:51
to squeeze out people who just can't afford to do it. You know,
24:52
it's not good, it's but it's the it's the nature of the business.
24:57
The way it's streaming has changed everything. Yeah. Yeah, And so you
25:00
can hitch about it or you have to just you know, accept it and
25:03
adopt, adopt, thank you something. I mean, people like Shonda Rhymes
25:07
and Ryan Murphy, those guys are getting such upfront massive you don't need to
25:11
worry about them. They're doing okay. They're they're okay. They were they
25:14
were fine before Alix gave Shanda Rymes one hundred million dollars, I think exactly,
25:18
they were completely fine. Everyone else you're going. But but I wanted
25:23
to kind of bring that up because I want there to be a realistic idea
25:27
of what an actual television writer is going to be doing in the in the
25:32
from now moving forward. There is everyone's like, oh, it's the golden
25:36
age. There's so much opportunity absolutely. There is a lot of shows.
25:38
There's more shows, but the money is much I spend as much time either
25:47
looking for work or developing work and creating my own shows with my partner than
25:51
I do actually writing working on a show. I mean, you know,
25:53
the balance is shifted, so it's much more money. But you're also in
25:57
a position that have you have track, could you have a reputation that you
26:00
can walk in with a brand new show and kind of and I've been a
26:03
showrunner and all that stuff. So if you're in a very unique scenario that
26:07
that makes that makes all the sense in the world. You shouldn't be going
26:08
after staff writing jobs at this point, yeah, right, um, you
26:12
should be doing other things and packaging it out. But moving forward, like,
26:17
can you is there a standard? Is that? What's the writer Gil
26:19
Gild's minimum now form or like a staff writer on a comedy show unstreaming.
26:25
I don't know. I don't know offhand. It might be a few thousand
26:29
a week. I don't know. It's different for different Yeah, it's not.
26:32
It's anywhere between a few thousand to low five figures or not. It's
26:37
not going to get to little fit figures that writers get paid per week,
26:38
whereas other writers higher I get paid per episode. Oh, they're just just
26:42
the straight up staff writer and they're just there for the duration. The bottom
26:47
level, and that's a weekly minimum salary, and I don't know because I
26:51
don't really know what it is, like two or three, I don't know
26:52
something that. Yeah, so it's it's money. But in LA, yeah,
26:57
yeah for sure. I mean when I was an assistant in LA twenty
27:03
five years ago, I was an assistant. I was making dirt money,
27:04
but I had enough money to make have I get my own studio apartment.
27:08
But now for you, where was Where was that studio apartment that was in
27:12
the Fairfax District in West Hollywood So you couldn't get that now? No,
27:18
No, I had a one bedroom for six to fifty a month. Now
27:21
now it's probably like two thousand a month that same building apartment, so six
27:26
yeah. Yeah. All right, So if you're going to write a pilot,
27:32
well, first of all, before you that, can you explain what
27:33
a show bible is? Yeah, and I don't really I guess it.
27:38
We don't do that. I don't do that at my level. It's basically
27:41
you're telling people when you sell the show here's the pilot, but also here's
27:47
the show, and here's the run of the show. Here's what we think
27:48
season two in season three is going to be. And I understand they kind
27:52
of want that. Now for a lot of streaming shows, they want them
27:56
to be seriolized because people are because people are binge watching, so as opposed
28:00
to like Modern Family, you could watch any episode out of water and it's
28:03
just as enjoyable, but now they want it to be serialized. So this
28:07
one, because the next one is that way you can't stop watching. And
28:10
so in that sense, they really kind of want a Bible. They want
28:12
they want to know what the three three season arc is, which especially for
28:18
a young writer, a new writer, I don't know how they're expecting to
28:21
know how to do that. For me it's it's not as hard, but
28:22
for a new writer it's like Gie, yeah, you know. But also
28:26
I find out limiting because when you as you work on the show, you
28:30
discover the relationships at work, in the dynamics and whatever you think the plan
28:34
is, you throw it all out because they go, this is working,
28:37
let's go with that. So the whole idea of Bible is, man,
28:40
I find a little strange, but that's kind of what people want now.
28:42
So if you if you are if you're writing a pilot for a new show
28:48
and you really are behind this pilot you think this is a good or you
28:52
have two or three of these pilots, should you attach Bibles to that?
28:55
At this point? Are you asking me or a young writer? A young
28:57
writer? I feel like for a young writer, their job is to write
29:02
a good pilot script because if it's good, they're going to get teamed up.
29:04
They need to get teamed up with the showrun or like me, to
29:07
sell it in any way. And that's something that most writers don't understand,
29:11
especially young writers that like, if you even if you've got the next breaking
29:14
bad, they're not going to let you run the show. No, no,
29:17
And you're not going to even sell it without some other piece of the
29:22
piece of the package, whether it's a showrun or a piece of talent director.
29:26
Something else has to be part of the equation or you're not going to
29:27
sell it. So do you if you have an idea for a script,
29:32
do you need to write a whole Bible? I don't think so. Your
29:33
first the first challenge is to write, to write a good script, and
29:38
then team up with the show run and the show run will help guide you.
29:42
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back
29:48
to the show. Will that writer as a creator of the show, will
29:56
they still have Let's say, let's say I write a pilot and and I
30:00
attach you to it, and you like, I love this, Let's do
30:02
it. You're the creator, alex Um, We're going to take this over
30:04
to Netflix. I got my boy Bob over there. He's going to get
30:07
us in there, and you get a deal. Well, I, as
30:11
as the creator of it, still have not creative control, because that's not
30:15
I'm not that delusional. But what what can we What can a writer in
30:19
my position expect to as far as creatively and financially work in that world.
30:26
Creatively, you would be hopefully attached to the project. I like what you
30:30
said, hopefully it's yeah. You know, if you make too much of
30:34
it, if you make too much of distinct, I'll kick you out.
30:37
I okay, So I worked. Uh, this is a year or two
30:41
ago. Someone brought us a producer, brought us a talent as a writer
30:47
who had a show. She'd created something on YouTube that had some episodes and
30:51
they're like short little episodes, like five or ten minutes, and some of
30:52
them are quite good, and some of them are and so the plan was
30:56
to attach her. They wanted to attach to be shore runners of her show,
31:00
and we liked the basic premise and the characters. And then she got
31:03
a little greedy and and she wanted more and more and more, and we
31:11
were waiting for the and I kept, you know, I was like,
31:12
I don't need to deal with this. I'm on part in charge of that
31:15
negotiation. The producers and the studios are they can leave me out of this.
31:18
And then suddenly the deal just went away. It just went She became
31:22
too much of a pain in the ass and it went away. So,
31:26
you know, you gotta understand your first the first opportunity, you're going to
31:30
get screwed. I got screwed on my first opportunity. Every boone, everyone
31:33
does. You have to accept that you don't have leverage. So play ball.
31:38
Accept the fact that you know, hey, I hope, I'm just
31:41
gone. I'm here along for the ride. I'm here to help and I'm
31:44
not here to make waves. And then in your second project, that's when
31:45
you start making some money. So Larry David's not going to get screwed on
31:48
his next project. That's what you're saying. No, No, Larry Davids,
31:52
He's again, he's okay, it's it's something. He's fine. If
31:59
someone who has no cred it needs to just hey, you know, just
32:01
nod and go along for the ride and just and yeah it just go yes,
32:05
yes, I just want to credit. I want to get paid a
32:07
little bit and let's move on. And if you if you can, can
32:12
you can you please express? This is the biggest piece of advice I give
32:15
anybody who asked me about being a writer, being a filmmaker, being getting
32:19
into the business. The number one piece of advice I gave is like,
32:22
just don't be a dick. Oh oh, I see it all a time,
32:27
man, I see it all. Think you're exactly right, because you
32:30
know people, okay, assistance when you're talking to an assistant on an agency
32:35
or whatever, they're not going to be assistant for a long time. They're
32:37
going to rise up two agents in a year or two. The same thing
32:39
with anybody in any position at PA. You don't abuse them. You just
32:43
be nice to them just because you want to be nice, but also because
32:45
they are going to be in power at one point, So don't be a
32:49
dick to anybody. That's crazy. You never underestimate the power of just being
32:54
able to sit and specifically for TV writers to sit in the room for eight
32:59
to ten hour or is it not longer with somebody and enjoy their company.
33:02
Yeah, is honestly sometimes more valuable than a super talented writer who's just a
33:07
pain in the ask to work with. I saw, I worked on one
33:10
show. We had a pain the ask writer and he never came back for
33:13
season two. So and there, and have you and have you worked with?
33:15
You know, arguably writers who you knew the other guy might have been
33:19
a better writer, but he was just such a pain in the ask,
33:21
So like worth it, it's it's just not it's not worth it, right,
33:24
talent, you can find somebody else who who's just as good and not
33:28
a pain in the ass. There's a lot of competition out there, right,
33:30
you know. Yeah, And a lot of times they think they're the
33:32
least coke in the desert as they say, ye yes, yeah, right
33:37
now, what advice would you give um a writer, a young writer or
33:40
a writer who's just starting out, how do they get attention? From a
33:44
manager or an agent, and when is it appropriate to even approach them,
33:47
which I think that's a very specific thing. That's when I'm staffing for a
33:53
show, I got to read a ton of scripts and these are from writers
33:57
who are young writers, but they have representation, Like I wouldn't have gotten
34:00
the script. And I'm telling you ninety five percent of the scripts are just
34:04
no good And these are people who have representation. And I think what you're
34:07
asking is actually the wrong question. I think the right question to ask is
34:12
how can I make sure my script is good or great? Because no one's
34:15
looking for mediocre writers. You know, if you're a mediocre right, there's
34:20
I don't know, one wants a meeting. They want a good writer or
34:22
a great writer. And so the question is how can I make my script
34:23
good or great? As opposed to how can I find a manager or an
34:27
agent? Because once you have manage rate it so what that doesn't mean anything.
34:30
You get to tell your mom, look I got a manager, and
34:32
your mom's like, oh, maybe it's gonna work out. But that doesn't
34:36
put money your table. You know, the money doesn't go in your pocket.
34:38
With a manager. You need to have a job and That's kind of
34:40
why I asked the question, because there's this myth out there that people,
34:45
especially people who are not been in the industry for a long time, that
34:47
they think that once they get the agent and the manager, all their dreams
34:51
will come true. The agent's going to start getting them in all those rooms
34:53
and the money's just gonna start flowing in because they're gonna hustle for you.
34:57
No, they're not, exactly. Their job is to field offers. Basically,
35:01
if they if an agent has ten writers and they submit all ten writers
35:06
for this one job opening, they don't care who gets it. As long
35:07
as one of them gets it, they're happy. Like you know that they're
35:10
why they don't care who, and so they're not going to fight for you.
35:15
Maybe they'll submit you, but they're going to fight for the one who
35:19
is who gets the job easier. Now, what is the biggest mistake you
35:22
see screen writers make? And with television pilots or television writing in general,
35:29
this single bit, well one of them is just not starting the story soon
35:32
enough. And that's just basic understanding how how to write a screenplay. And
35:37
so if I am reading a script and I the story hasn't started by page
35:43
five. If I'm not engaged, forget it goodbye, I pick up another
35:46
one. Now that seems unfair, but I got a stack of scripts up
35:49
to the roof. Why would I like, maybe it'll get good at the
35:52
end, but who cares, Like, I'm not, I'll just read the
35:53
next one. The next one will get read good earlier, hopefully be you
35:57
know, start the story sooner, and I think that's it. May see
36:00
cruel, but it's actually fair. You and I do the same thing.
36:01
If we're watching a TV show and it's no good after five minutes, we
36:05
don't say, well, let's give it another thirty minutes, we change the
36:07
channel. Right so exactly like right now, my wife and I were in
36:14
covid Land, So we're going through shows again, like we've that show that
36:17
you've always wanted to watch and you've had on your list. We're now starting
36:21
to get to them. And then when we get to them, like we'll
36:22
give them an episode, maybe two, and then it's find out not not
36:29
it's no, but it's gonna get good later. I don't care. I
36:31
don't care. Like I know a lot of people listening will probably freak out,
36:35
But like I'd never watched Game of Thrones. So I watched one or
36:39
two episodes. My wife both watched it, and we were just like,
36:43
I'm sure it's gonna get really good, interesting, but I don't have the
36:47
time, and if my wife's not into it, it's just hard. Man.
36:52
I can't. I can't take on Game of Thrones without the support of
36:57
my wife because we only have so much TV time can watch, and we
37:00
generally don't watch it separately. We generally watched it together. So I just
37:04
I couldn't get into it, and I'm sure one day maybe I will.
37:07
But you know, I love Okay, I know, I know a lot
37:10
of people do a lot of people love it, like I'm a huge breaking
37:15
bad fan, like I I mean, it's the best show ever been Williamson
37:20
but genius, and you know, I remember I remember Walking Dead when it
37:24
first came out. I'm not my wife got into the zombie show like it
37:29
was insane. But then I after season six, I just like, yeah,
37:35
I just I can't do it. But um, but at a certain
37:38
point, you either lose people or you gain people. And a show like
37:43
in the comedy world, like like Friends, I still think it is probably
37:46
as as brilliant of a city in Seinfeld, you know Seinfeld and friends.
37:53
Both of them cheers. It is great. I was watching I went to
37:57
my mom's house last year to visit, and I was watching Golden Girls.
38:01
Golden Girls. Great man, it's a great show. Great show. Like
38:07
yeah, and like I haven't seen Golden I remember watching Golden Girls forever and
38:12
I was watching it and I'm just sitting there going riding is so good.
38:17
Who ran Modern Family? Crystal Id ran Modern Family and then he also,
38:22
you know, he ran Frasier before that, and we in between we worked
38:24
for them on a show called Out of Practice that he created. And he's
38:28
just a brilliant writer. But I think his very first credit was was Golden
38:30
Girls. Yeah, that's it's it's it's amazing to go back and watch some
38:35
of those, some of those early shows. It's just by the way.
38:39
Now, they would never make it because who's going to sit down and watch
38:42
five or four? You know, senior citizens who cares? It's funny,
38:45
it's great, they care, but they don't make this. They won't make
38:49
that show now because what's the entry point? You have to be twenty five
38:52
year olds or whatever. You know, it's a you know, the funny
38:54
thing is to that Blanche who was the character at Blanche, she was like
39:00
fifty three there in the show. Jennifer Lopez is fifty like two, is
39:07
that right? I saw that online somewhere. I was like, this is
39:09
fifteen. This is fifty two in nineteen eighty five. Yeah, and this
39:15
is fifty two in two thousand and two. D And you're just like Jennifer
39:19
Anderson's in her yeah, in her late forties, early fifties. Salamahayak isn't.
39:23
And you look at these women like amazing. But j Low's a freak
39:27
of nature. Ge she obviously drinks the blood of infants. Um. Yeah,
39:35
who could blame? I mean Jesus um. So those are the that's
39:38
the biggest mistake. Any advice you would give um screen writers who are trying
39:43
to break into television or into When I say television, I mean include streaming,
39:46
That's that's a given. So tell trying to get a job right now
39:51
in television. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and
39:59
now out back to the show. Honestly, I really think it's more important
40:04
to focus on your craft and get your craft to a place where it's the
40:07
writing is really good as opposed to you know that way you make Hollywood come
40:13
to you, as opposed to you know me coming Hollywood. But also with
40:16
YouTube and in Facebook, it's so much easier to put your own content up
40:22
and make something splashy that people come to you. There's a comedian out,
40:25
Sarah Cooper. She she just hit it a couple of weeks ago by doing
40:29
these Donald Trump a personation work. She just mouths. She takes a speech
40:32
and she mouths, you know, she lip sinks to his speech, but
40:35
she adds her funny expressions and she became a hit, and now Hollywood came.
40:38
She just got signed with by Way Morris never because of that, because
40:43
she was putting up her own content and people were discovering great count So it's
40:46
not like she was banging on doors. I think she was earlier before that
40:50
when they were an opening, and now she did it herself and now Hollywood
40:54
comes to her. And that's the difference between now and when Jess Shoot Me
41:00
started. Like you can create your own content and you have an avenue and
41:02
distribution outlet to put those things out there, and comedy specifically doesn't have to
41:07
be so high. I mean it just has to be funny. Yeah,
41:10
it doesn't have to be well produced. No, you don't need to spend
41:13
a ton of money. You have a phone. You could edit on your
41:15
phone with an app for five dollars. And you know it's a little harder
41:17
now with with COVID, but whatever, do a puppet show, I don't
41:21
know, put up your content and that's good, you know. Do you
41:25
suggest that writers create, like, because there's a lot of these Amazon Prime
41:30
series that are out that are like, you know, they they're just self
41:34
produced and they have like eight episodes and I've seen these running in their funny
41:37
and stuff. Do you recommend writers? Does that have more cachete with you
41:43
that they have something produced that they produce themselves, that you can send you
41:45
an episode of that they to see their writing? Or is it better the
41:50
old fashioned way with justice? It's not so much they should send me an
41:52
episode. I should discover an episode. It should be so big. People
41:57
should say, hey, have you seen this? Have you have you heard
41:59
of this? So again, it's not about knocking on doors, Hey Michael,
42:02
we watch my stupid episode. It's the other way around, you know,
42:06
make something great and focus on the writing and then you'll be you know,
42:09
you'll be sought after. Now I'm gonna ask you a few questions.
42:13
I ask all of my guests, Um, what are three pilots that all
42:19
TV writers should Oh? Wow, that's you know, I've I've read so
42:24
many. I'll go back and I'll go back and reread pilots just to see
42:27
how they do it when I'm working on something else. So the Frasier pilot
42:30
was terrific. Uh, the Taxi pilot was. It's an interesting pilot because
42:35
it doesn't really fit the role of the show. But but there's boy,
42:39
there's so many and they're probably all online. The more you read the better,
42:44
honestly. But yeah, Frasier with Friends, Thanks is very good.
42:49
But like the Seinfelt pilot is not what Seinfelt became, you knows, right,
42:53
Yeah, so you can season one. I was like, that's not
42:57
the show, so but it's go. But you should read is many you
43:00
can just for story structure. Look where are the act breaks? How are
43:02
the characters introduced worthy? The act break moments are probably the most important thing
43:07
to look for. What kind of act breaks are we we tell them?
43:09
And what's the world and what's the main what's the main relationship we're going to
43:13
be following this pilot? Now? What is the lesson that took you the
43:15
longest learn, Whether in the film business or in life. It took me
43:20
while learning how to break a story properly. That took years and years.
43:23
And I remember for the first couple of years of my career, I was
43:25
like, this is a magic trick. I don't know how these guys are
43:28
doing it. You'd pitch something and in one of the writers, no,
43:31
that's not that's not an act break that goes here in mid act too,
43:34
and you'd like, I didn't know this. I mean it really was.
43:37
That took me a long time to learn, and eventually when it became a
43:40
short on myself, you have to learn fast. So that's invaluable knowing how
43:45
to break a story. So can you explain what breaking the story is?
43:47
That kind of definition of it. So when you have an idea, you
43:51
have an idea for an episode, and then your first question as well,
43:54
this is this have enough weight to carry an episode? Or is this just
43:58
a scene, just a funny this is a line. And I think a
44:00
lot of people, a lot of people struggle with that. I got a
44:01
million ideas. I'm like, listen them. I know you have a million
44:05
days. I have a million ideas too, half of them or shit.
44:07
So how do we identify what are the good ones from the battles? Then
44:09
once you have a good one, you figure, Okay, I know what
44:14
the main dynamic is, but how do I break it into three acts?
44:17
So that I'm talking about what's my first act break, my second act break?
44:21
What happens in the middle of act two? What are they? And
44:23
so that's called breaking a story. And then you're you're just doing that on
44:27
a whiteboard. You're just putting the bare bones of what the story is,
44:31
and then from there you make an outline and then you were at a first
44:35
draft. So it's all done in stages. Now, what did you learn
44:38
from your biggest failure? I remember it was my biggest failure, But I
44:45
remember my first job. It was I was show running Marin and we wrote
44:49
all the scenes, the writers, the scene, my partner. I wrote
44:52
this episode, and then in the writer's room we rewrote it with everywhere that's
44:57
commons, all work together. Mark was there and we rewrote the scene and
45:00
then we went to shoot it and Mark did We did a rehearsal, and
45:07
then suddenly Mark kind of flew like flew off the handlebars and he got really
45:10
mad at me. He goes, I don't know what the hell I'm supposed
45:13
to be playing in this scene. And I was like, oh, and
45:15
I look at the scene and I'm reading it real fast. I got to
45:17
fix it. I got two seconds to do a quick rewrite in the scene
45:20
while all the camera people are waiting. We have a we have to move,
45:22
we have to get off this because we have to shoot real fast.
45:24
We don't have a luxury. And I'm reading the scene and I'm like,
45:28
oh my god, Mark is right, I don't know what his character wants.
45:30
No wonder he's getting mad at me. And we had one line.
45:34
We fixed it with one line, and with that one line was basically saying
45:37
what Mark wanted in the scene. And with that he was able to dial
45:42
into the scene and that kind of saved the day. He was Okay,
45:45
I got it now. But that's so important, is knowing what each character
45:47
wants in every scene. At some point during the rewrite, that line got
45:51
cut and I wasn't paying attention and got cut, and that's what ruined that
45:55
scene. At one line, that's the job of a shouldrener. I catch
46:00
that? Yeah, yeah, well, well all the talent is yelling at
46:02
you and all the grips are staring by laughing. That's the job. Well,
46:07
I mean, obviously the writer is the most respected part of the entire
46:10
filmmaking processes. That not absolutely not absolutely not, because you know what you
46:16
would never tell the DP. You know, I think you need to switch
46:19
a lens. I think you should put an end filter. You would never
46:22
tell a DP that, but you have no problem telling the writer. But
46:23
I think this line could be that I see I hear that all the time.
46:28
You know. It's because because unlike the DP, there's a extreme amount
46:32
of technical knowledge on the surface as well as nuance in the background. With
46:37
writing, we're like, well, I write, I've been writing since I
46:39
wasn't first grade. I and all the pend soil. I can tell you
46:42
what to do. That's yeah, that's the difference. That's a huge difference.
46:46
Um, And what do you up to now? What's what are you
46:49
up to do? During the COVID world? I about a year ago I
46:52
decided I was going to write a collection of a personal essays. I was
46:55
going to see what that would be like, like David Sedaris, I love
46:58
these are genius that I love. So I've been doing that. I have
47:01
a website, Michael jaman dot com, and I kind of published one every
47:05
month and then that's been such a great journey, just discovering how to write
47:08
a different form, different format, and then I'll see you. I'll seek
47:12
out publisher. I don't know about a six months or something like that.
47:15
And then in the meantime, honestly, when this pandemic hit, I was
47:17
like, I'm going to be in my garage. I think I don't see
47:21
an end to this. You know, this is not three weeks, this
47:22
is a year and a half. So I have a friend who kept on
47:28
hounding me. He was the PA on the show I work on, and
47:30
he's like, you got to put together a course. I'm like, who's
47:32
got the time to do a screenwriting course? And he goes, no,
47:35
no, no, I'll hope you'll build the site. I'm like, I
47:37
don't have the time. Well suddenly I had the time. So it took
47:43
me about five months to build this thing. But I was like, okay,
47:45
So I built an online screenwriting course, and anyone who's listening in your
47:49
audience. If you want to sign up, you'll get a it's still in
47:52
beta, so you'll get a ten percent discount and you'll be in beta and
47:57
you can give feedback. And so that link is if you go to Michael
48:00
JamMan dot com slash Hustle, So Michael Jaman dot com slash Hustle, because
48:06
it's your podcast, sonyone, we'll get it. We'll get a disc kind
48:08
of check out and get temperatent discount and then they'll also be in the beta,
48:13
so it's lower pricing. So if they're interested, you can go to
48:15
that and that teaches you everything you need to know about being a TV writer.
48:19
Yeah, it's called The Showrunners Guide to TV Writing, and it's basically
48:21
everything that I wish I had known years ago. I mean, it's everything
48:24
I've learned over the years from all the great writers I've worked under, and
48:28
it's like, this is the class I wish I had. So and where
48:31
can people find you and your work and what you're doing. Yeah, So
48:36
if you go also at Michael Jaman dot com, you can see whatever I'm
48:38
working on, and you can read my essay, you can see some of
48:42
the videos, some of the I make videos and stuff like that, and
48:45
go check it out and sign up for my news later I'll send You'll send
48:49
you a new story every month, or you being tied, chirp whatever you
48:52
want. Michael Man, thank you so much for being on the show.
48:54
It's been an education to say at least, so I really do appreciate it.
49:00
And he also find Michael Jaman writer on Facebook. If they want to
49:02
fund following me there too. We'll put it all. We'll put it all
49:05
on the show notes. Michael, thanks again and stay safe out there.
49:07
Man Hey, thank you so much. What a pleasure. I want to
49:10
thank Michael for coming on the show and dropping those knowledge bombs. Thank you
49:15
so much, Michael. If you're interested in writing for television, definitely check
49:19
out his course, The Showrunners Guide to Television Writing. I put a link
49:23
in the show notes at indie film Hustle dot com Ford Slash seven No One.
49:28
If you haven't already, please head over to Filmmaking podcast dot com,
49:32
subscribe and leave a good review for the show. It really helps us out
49:37
a lot, guys. Thank you again so much for listening. Guys.
49:39
As always, keep that hustle going, keep that dream alive, Stay safe
49:43
out there, and I'll talk too soon. Thanks for listening to the Indie
49:45
Film Hustle podcast at Indie Film hustle dot com. That's I N D I
49:51
E F I L M hustli dot com