Latest / K12ArtChat the Podcast / Episode 271 – Richard Beck Kim – Rethinking How We Teach Art

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Episode 271 – Richard Beck Kim – Rethinking How We Teach Art · K12ArtChat the Podcast

• 0:10
  SPEAKER_02: Hi everyone, I'm Laura Grenler.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm Matt Grendler, and today on K12 Art Chat the podcast, we'll be chatting with Rich Kim about reflection and the Art Education Manifesto.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_02: We have a guest returning to us, and I'm very excited to hear more from this guest.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_02: And it's been a while.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_02: It's been a little while.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_02: But, you know, just wanting to catch up and find out what's going on and uh what kind of new things they're creating and writing about and sharing in the world of our ed.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_02: So Rich Kim, it is wonderful to have you back on the podcast for our listeners.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_02: If they don't already know you, can you do a little bit about yourself and your art journey and what you do?
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: Sure, sure.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so my name's Rich Kim.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm a full-time high school art teacher.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: I've been teaching in the same school district for, I think, oh geez, I should know this, 23 years um in uh southeastern Massachusetts.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um prior to teaching, I used to be uh a dance major uh at the Boston Conservatory, but um I dropped out.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: And then when I returned home to New Jersey, I transferred to Rutgers University, um, where uh I transferred completely to the uh art school there, which is Mason Grove School of the Arts.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um I did my graduate studies at Mass College of Art, uh, and then again at Maryland Institute College of Art.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I've been teaching, or I taught at the undergrad undergrad art program at Montserrat College of Art for five years, and I'm currently in my fourth year of teaching in the graduate art ed program at the School of the Museum of Fine Arts at Tufts.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_02: That's a lot.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and at this point, you know, making it 23 years in one place is a lot too.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_02: That's amazing.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_02: Do you uh well, I mean, I'm just thinking about the span of your career.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_02: Do you have a favorite, like, do you prefer the grade level you're teaching or do you prefer the college?
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, it's funny, like uh at this point in my life, um, I'm thinking about that transition between high school and higher ed.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I enjoy both thoroughly for completely different reasons, as I'm sure um many art educators do who teach across grade levels.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: But um, you know, uh in a weird way, I'm just not ready to leave this these high school kids yet.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I still I still feel like I I enjoy them tremendously as much as I did when I first started teaching.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I have a completely different viewpoint about how to approach teaching with them, how to uh engage with them, how to get to know them.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I still feel like uh part of my research still is ingrained at the high school level um before going on, moving on to specifically students who want to just study art or study art education, uh, which I still feel like uh I'm still a baby, you know.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: I'm still learning that that side of things and getting used to it and seeing like what works for that.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: So um, yeah, as much as I love teaching the graduate students at um Tufts, uh I'm just not ready to leave high school yet.
• 3:25
  unknown: Yeah.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_02: I actually love hearing that, and I'm I kind of makes me want to talk even more about your book.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_02: So you have a book, and we'd love to hear a little bit about it, and the specific reasons writing um, as you call it, a manifesto felt really urgent right now.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so yeah, the book is called Art Education Manifesto, and um, you know, I think that there are a lot of similarities always between the making of art and being a teacher and teaching art.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: And uh in turn, if there are art manifestos, I feel like there should be art education manifestos, right?
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: And um I think um a lot of art education content or art education content in general is just generative.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um what I mean by that is like, you know, versus like uh science or math where it's always objective and you know, facts are facts, but um art education is in the um is developed in the active tradition and passing it down and um best practices.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: So um, you know, I I have a very strong belief system in things.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I think um, again, I mentioned this the first time I was with you guys, whereas like if someone who is inexperienced at art, um, as well as someone who is very educated in art can both look at contemporary art and say, oh, that's stupid, or or it's too difficult to understand.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: How is that worth that much money?
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, then like what are we doing in our art education programs that are contributing to this kind of messaging?
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: And um I could be a very, you know, passionate, sensitive person, as I'm sure, not to stereotype artists, but um I am an artist.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I've I've been feeling very strongly about um, you know, how can we make a change uh in art education to kind of get rid of these messaging, um, but also as a way to help teachers be reflective about their practice and really think about their career and um build sustenance and like depth into uh what you're learning uh and what you're experiencing every day in the classroom.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: So, for example, like I have um, I don't recommend this, but I have a huge dissonance with general education theory.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: So uh for example, sometimes um, you know, if I'm focusing on working backwards with backwards design and I'm not thinking about big ideas, but I'm thinking about uh the visual um qualities of something I want to get to.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, I'm working backwards and saying, okay, the students need to first do this, but I'm also creating a facsimile.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um and uh again, I don't think we do this intentionally.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: I think this just happens because we're trying our best and it doesn't come to our brains or our minds that that's happening.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: So, like sometimes, you know, hindsight's 2020, as they say.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um I also think um, you know, this idea of like really, really creating clarity and specificity with learning objectives and then writing them on the board and then projecting them on the screen.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: And if an admin comes in the room, they'd ask the students what are the goals and what are the jobs and this regurgitating of information, uh, information.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like I understand and I appreciate, of course, anything that any researcher or anyone who's passionate about education has to offer, but at the same time, I'm saying, is the learning really happening in those things?
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I I understand, like I said, I understand why, but uh, you know, if we become so uh such a good student and stick to those things, we could be missing a lot of things also.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: And um, it could be a facade that learning is teaching, just if the student says, we're supposed to be doing this, this, and this.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, they said it, but like do they really learn it?
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: Do they really understand it?
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: Can they really apply it into multiple uh areas, you know?
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um also uh I don't mean to say it this way because it kind of insinuates it's like a buzzword or a trend or a fad, but like in this age of DEI and SEL, um, I want to challenge myself into thinking instead of just like embedding it when it feels appropriate or just including it, you know, to me, true diversity, um, you know, curriculum being equitable and inclusive, I don't want to do things after the fact.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to meet um someone who learns differently and then make accommodations around them.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: I want those, all of that already built in right from the get-go.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I believe that, you know, contemporary art is like that, and that accessibility is important to try to do that right away rather than, again, like I said, after the fact.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um so that's I guess where like um, you know, art education manifesto, what might sound confusing, but that's why I feel like it's a manifesto.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like uh I'm very passionate about this, and like this is what, you know, we have such great um contributors to our field that, you know, whether you um even if you're a very technical or visually uh centric teacher, or whether you do tab or whether you value choice based, um not that I'm weird bragging about uh my research or this book, but I feel like this is like an umbrella over all of that, saying, you know, um this is the time we really live in.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: And we have a habit of kind of like regurgitating a little bit, making progress, but regurging up to regurgitating a little bit of like what we're comfortable with, what we've learned, what we respect, what we like, that like how can we really, really push that forward um to the now?
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_02: I I've just been nodding my head yet.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I I was sitting here thinking too about you know, having been a former campus administrator all those times where I I was forced to look for those objectives, but all I really wanted to be able to do was to sit down with children and have them tell me about what they were doing.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_02: Tell me about what you're learning.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_02: I don't want you to, you know, I think that that's exactly right.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_02: We've gotten to this place in education where we have these rubrics and the kids have to check the boxes and they have to meet those objectives.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_02: And it is, it is you have to question and I I think our teachers in general, when I talk to especially high school art teachers, um I think we see the imagination flow in the in the younger grades, but when you get to high school, I would say even middle school, their kids are like, Well, what do I have to do to get the grade?
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_02: You know, what what's next?
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_02: What where's the check mark?
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_02: What do I do to go to the next step instead of being able to process those ideas and come up with the next steps themselves?
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_02: And so a lot of what you're saying just now is is speaking very much in my heart and thinking about you know what we need to do and how we need to kind of reinvent and think through and not just do what we've always been modeled, you know.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: I'm you know, Rich, I'm just sitting here thinking you you hit on so many things that I was just like, yes.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, and I what really stuck out to me was the concept that you had of kind of making making those changes to the way in which we teach, not because you're surrounding it around you know, making a modification or an accommodation for a student and how they think.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I know that for me that's always been a big goal of mine is to really basically try to get that intertwined no matter the subject area, no matter the the concept, because there are, I mean, I was at uh teacher uh professional work day um last week, and one of the math teachers that was there said something about you know teaching teaching math and you know not having to teach math or at least assume that I kind of wasn't teaching math.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: And well, I mean anyway, so I kind of turned and said, actually we do.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: We were just talking about blah blah blah.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, you know, I mean I know this teacher quite well, and and I think the teacher also knew that I'm that kind of teacher that does teach those cross-concepts, and so it just was it was interesting that you that you brought that up.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_02: So well, and I think uh I think as our kids have all moved into high school and and early college we've thought about, I mean we've in this household and between that and I we've always thought about the neurodivergent brains and the diversity in the way we learn and a lot and just because of who we are, and we've really tried to approach teaching in that way.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_02: I love how you describe, you know, retroactively making it accommodation.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_02: I should be able to plan ahead and have this what I'm doing should get all types of learners and all types of brains and all types of needs and all types of you know, that's that that thinking proactively is I think is key, and and approaching it from a very wide space, which it it's hard, it's not easy.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: You know, Reg I think that's a perfect perfect segue into the into the next question, which actually is about that reflective teaching, and and you know, it does get it does get used a lot in uh professional development.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um and it has almost kind of become a buzzword.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so just I'm curious, you know, what is truly a reflective practice, especially in an art studio, look like um you know, versus like a simple just hey, did I do this?
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like self-evaluation.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: Well, first I I just want to make a comment um about what what you both said, which maybe got my brain thinking, you know.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um I and I don't mean this literally.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: Again, I I guess I'm an artist type, so this is just the way I express myself.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: But um I find that like, you know, when I was in the school setting, for whatever reason, I don't think I was, and again, I don't mean this literally, but like I don't think I actually learned how to learn until I was done with school.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't actually understand my method of learning and how to adapt to other people or uh help articulate to other people how I what information I need to understand what they're trying to say until I was in my adult life.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm trying to like, you know, find this way to fast track that um and send that down um earlier so that doesn't happen, you know, to these uh students uh and the uh as people and Azaris.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: But um so reflective teaching.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um I again, just um cushioning myself and saying like I'm a manifesto kind of guy, so it's gonna sound a little harsh.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: But um I think uh we have to magnify, like kind of like and starting with what I just ended with, um, you got to magnify the now as much as possible.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: And what does that mean?
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um think of, I just you know, I know it sounds like crazy because I'm just throwing this word around, but like in terms of learning, I'm just gonna throw the word contemporary in front of that.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: What is contemporary learning?
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um we're so conditioned for like fact and logic.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: And um, even not saying this is true, uh, I feel like I'm an experienced person, but inexperienced also as a researcher.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: So um my frustrations with research is that, you know, I just like art, just like artists, like I said, studio practice mirrors teaching practice.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I yearned for something innovative and new and different and on the cusp and on the pulse.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I feel like research, even if you find that, when once you have the evidence, you always have to verify that from research that came previously.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like, um, you know, like I said, I'm not saying this is true because I am inexperienced to a certain degree, but um so is this new research, this innovative method, this new information I can share with my community, um, is it just redundant then in a way, you know?
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that has nothing to do with like researchers, you know, all of us do a lot of hard work in our community to like make this all work.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: But so in contemporary teaching and learning, I just have to tell myself constantly, and again, it's like almost the first step is admitting it, is that like there's just not gonna be a lot of answers.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: There's not, you know, things are gonna veer in one direction and go in another direction.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, at some point um you're gonna have to put all the puzzle pieces together, um, and you have to be patient with yourself with that.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I think um, you know, reflective teaching is really, you know, it's difficult too because if if you're in public education and your districts are doing SMART goals, you know, you feel obligated to choose things that are are gonna be measurable and have data.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: But like, um, not to sound like a know-it-all, but every single SMART goal I've done in the past 20 plus years, I've already known the answer to.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: I have, I have, I have.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'm and and it's not even like I don't even think I'm a know-it-all.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's just like I just don't think that's really propelling me forward again in the manifesto sense.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, I want more than this.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: I really want to dive into what we're doing, into my career, into art, into teaching art.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and just like Hunter Gunner, who is a graphic designer and Olivia Goody has mentioned about um teaching what we were taught, um, you know, when we go through school as educators, you know, our education in a certain way stops.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of educators can say things like, oh, the contemporary art's not my wheelhouse, or I don't get it, but we're professionals, you know, it's not our fault, you know.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, when I ask like the college kids what kind of contemporary art classes have you taken, they say, Oh, seminar and contemporary art or um contempor uh contemporary art theory and practice.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: But even myself, even though I felt like my art educators allowed me to be choice-based and I my work was able to be self-driven, I still was working in traditional media.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: So like I don't have, you know, I had to uh give myself an education on contemporary art just so I could stay up with the times and uh apply that to my curriculum.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: But um connecting to contemporary practices, uh saying that you don't like contemporary art or your kids aren't ready for it, I don't think that's a good enough excuse, you know.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: We should have respect for ourselves and our field that like it's our responsibility to know that.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: So I understand in like casual conversation or whatnot, it's like, what is that stuff?
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: But um it's our job to know what that is and what uh contemporary practices are.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: But as I was trying to say, I think it's um it's also not our fault, you know, because our our education has only come so far.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: So it's almost like I want my SMART goal every year to be um I would I want to connect to contemporary practices.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: I want to make an artwork where you know I feel like I'm not just competent, but I understand um areas of art making that I'm not comfortable with, like performance art or sound bites or creative writing, that um if that ever, if I ever engage with that with the student, I'm not an expert on it, but at least I have a breadth of knowledge that I feel confident enough to encourage students and give them uh information to help them go along.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um and you know, uh, I don't mean to get on a like a soapbox about this because I can ramble.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, it's a responsibility to put art education into the future and not just keep it where it is, you know.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: We want that um that range uh uh of teaching, you know, in our own curriculum and not just be a one-trick pony or not just what we do.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I think um a very, very simple quote, but for some reason, like it always moves me as like uh I heard from someone say that like art history had great artists, but they also had great art teachers.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, that happened because of of art teachers, and um, you know, for as long as the academy existed, artists not only created um expression and a frame a point of view uh and framed and communicated things in ways that like, you know, I can't articulate.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, artists have always opened up the door to freedom.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: That's really it.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: A freedom of possibility for you to own it, for you to do what you want.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: And um what service would be would we be doing if we're sticking to this academy mode of execution and technical proficiency, and we don't take advantage of, you know, artists had to sacrifice their careers, their reputation to allow possibility to happen, to allow contemporary art to happen.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: So we should be championing this.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: This isn't something that we should be afraid of or saying it's too complicated or it's too much.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I think uh again, I know I went on for a little while, but I think one thing for reflective practice is just like really um being ahead of the game and just really feeling like you're magnifying what's happening now in learning, in classrooms, in teaching, in art, in art education.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: Another thing that I think really helps reflective practice is really taking a look at approaches and processes.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um uh even if like some teachers um, you know, that I work with are like, oh, I don't do facts semblies, Rich.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: I swear, I swear, I do choice-based, I do this.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: But even for myself, when I reflect, even when I had a choice-based curriculum, um, you know, I would always require students to number one, you have two sketchbook homeworks, you have to do two prompts.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: Number two, you need to do four thumbnails and you need to pass into those four thumbnails.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: You can't do three, you can't do two, you have to do four.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and the next thing, then then it's like you have to like uh choose the color scheme, experiment with your colors.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: And like these are all great virtues.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not saying anything's wrong with this, but this was the process dictated for every project they did.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: So even though I gave them, I think, like a decent enough education, I really was only teaching one process.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: So uh, what are the other processes out there?
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: Well, when I go in the studio, when I'm productive and I get things done and I'm like, oh, I figured it out, I'm feeling good, I had a great day, and I order myself a huge dinner to celebrate.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: And then other days I start getting stuff out, and then I find myself just lying on the floor, listening to records, um, going up through my phone, looking through my camera roll, looking at images, and I'm like looking for an image to draw, and then I find that I'm feeling like, ooh, I remember this memory.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I remember how.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: This made me feel.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: Or sometimes I'm just scribbling and scribbling and scribbling and doing something mindless that has no, in the moment, reason or rhyme or logic as to why I'm doing it.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: But still, all these processes are still informing what's going to happen in the studio, not just the one that seems orderly and understood by others and measurable.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: So that's what I mean by like teaching a range of processes.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: And then I think the third thing is we're so product focused.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: And when I say we, I say me.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: We're so product focused.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: You know, because we want the kids to feel, and the kids are the same way, you know.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: I think this is just a human being thing.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: We want to feel satisfied.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: We want to take it home.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: We want to own it.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: We want to put into an art show, an art contest.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: They need it for their college portfolios, whatever the reason.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: That like we forget about training.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: And what I mean by training is um when I was a dancer and we would show up to rehearsal and we wouldn't be prepared, we wouldn't be able to execute a certain um move.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I remember one of my favorite instructors would say, practice is what you do at home, rehearsal is what you do in the dance studio.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: So when I think of that in an art educational context, what is practice?
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: And so to me, that's training.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, to explain this further, um, when I used to do rubrics, it would say elements and principles with all the categories, and then composition and all the categories, work ethic and all the categories, and then it would say creativity and all the categories.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: And then I would go down and say, All right, I did teach the elements and principles.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: All right, that seems valid.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: I did teach them how to do composition, and then I get to creativity and go, did I teach them creativity?
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know if you can teach creativity, but I'll say it's not going to stop me from trying to train them how to think creatively, how to make decisions.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: So it was just like odd for me that I was expecting them to be creative and I put it on the rubric and it was a learning objective, but I did nothing to help them to, you know, to train them to think that way.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I even trained them to be stupid.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: I know that sounds crazy, but for example, um, I make a worksheet and I find eight pictures of broccoli, for example, on the internet.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I say, look at this broccoli, stare at the broccoli, and they're all different.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: Some are lying down, some are like cut up.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what if this broccoli had a name?
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_00: Name all of these broccoli.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: So then the student's like, what?
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: They're confused because it's like it's a very easy, simple task, but it also is like, wait, am I doing this right?
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: Is this what he really wants us to do?
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's just like when people say, like, oh, you know, like pets look like they're owners or cars look like they're owners, you know.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: I can put a name to anything, technically.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: And then we say, All right, let's narrow this down.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: What name is this broccoli?
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: Sam?
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: All right, what about this one?
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: Teresa?
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: And they're like, no, that's not Teresa, that's Patty.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_00: And then they fight over it and fight over it.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: And we're doing something so stupid.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: But what I'm really trying to teach them is having this experience just to be passionate about something, just to have a strong opinion, you know?
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: And also, I mean, I guess you can say, like, you know, little things like um how the brain works in terms of like, why does this student think that this piece of broccoli is Sam?
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: Is it the way that the top of it moves?
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: Is it, you know, it's all silliness, but like these are again things that maybe without details, it's like, oh my God, what are you doing?
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: What's that weirdo doing in his classroom?
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: That our teacher's doing that our teacher thing again.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: But it's like all these different processes and ways of teaching.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like this is teaching and learning to me, you know.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: So again, giving these like training activities rather than just doing project critique, project critique, project critique, I think.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, between thinking, like trying to connect with the now and being okay with the unknown, like really looking at how many approaches and processes you give and providing training ground, not just projects.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think is the best way that you can, you know, that helps a reflective practice.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um I'm just curious, when you shift into this more reflective thinking as an educator and you're really thinking about these processes and you're really thinking about um shifting into kind of more of a training mode, do you see that the students access their own creative process differently, or that they're either diving in in a different way, or you know, to a point you made earlier about you know, are they starting to learn how they learn?
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um I don't know if regular people would consider this learning, but I just think of art in such a holistical head, a hand, like a Peter London sort of way, like the head, the hand, the heart.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: What are you thinking?
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: What are you feeling?
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: What are you physically doing?
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um I just feel again, I I know it sounds a little maybe like too uh philosophical, but like I just feel them being more free, being more being like comfortable in their shoes, comfortable in their classrooms, comfortable.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, for example, um they're not just sharing me what their favorite hobby is or their favorite band, which is still interesting and a way to connect to kids.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: But again, if my my manifesto version of Rich Kim is saying that's too surface level, that's too superficial.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I want to know about how you feel in your friendship dynamic.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: Do you feel like you're a group a group of kids?
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: How do you feel um when you feel small?
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: How do you feel in class when everyone gets it and you feel like you don't get it and you're not getting it at all?
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like these honest, like human things.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: So um again, I see a transformation from the art um being a little more critical, which is awesome, but I feel um a sense of self-forming quicker.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, a sense of like, you know, self-awareness, not just being aware of how you treat people or empathy or apathy, but just like um, you know, who you are, how you come across, um, how you say things, how you feel about certain things.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_00: You know, um, a lot of times like my students are like, I love that album.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I say, What do you love about it?
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: I love the songs, I love how they sound.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like all these generalities, and I like, I love that you're passionate about something, but it's so weird that you don't know why.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's like, oh yeah, you know, uh, and that is even just like again, like critical thinking of like why you love that Taylor Swift album so much.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so again, um, I don't know if I'm yeah, they're thinking deeper about their work and making those connections, but I think the thing that I see, the reason why I do value this is that um I see them just being comfortable in their shoes in a school setting, um, making art, doing what they want, making uh very interesting, crazy, random, bizarre, um thoughtful decisions.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like uh I want to see that all the time.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: That's why I'm greedy in that sense.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I I I I will admit, you know, it's not selfishly for me, you know.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like art making, I tell my students all the time, like um the art making, it's the most positive way you can be selfish.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: There is nothing selfish about whatever you want to do, whatever decision you want to make, decision you want to make, whatever you want how the work to look, um, how you want the work to interact with people, be selfish.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we tend to be um selfish in negative ways, or people like to call things out on that, but it's totally fine to do that.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: But um, for teachers, art education is the opposite of that.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: You're in service of the students, you know.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um that was a lot to take in, but that was I mean, that was fantastic.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, Rich, I was thinking about some of the ways that uh I try to teach creativity in my room.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I mean, we just actually just did that with a whole bunch of sixth graders.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: We did exquisite course just because I wanted to teach them the idea that it doesn't matter what the n what the segment was before or after, what are you doing right then and there?
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_01: And that part staying in the now.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's staying in the now, and um, you know, it's it's very interesting because I'm like, okay, now you need to go trade it with somebody else in the other room, you know, in the opposite side of the room.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: So um and I'll and a lot of other things I do that are similar to that.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I just love and I loved how you ended that because in a way we are being selfish for us because we enjoy watching kids have fun while they're making, and those things that we can teach them, I think, um along the way to kind of let their their judgment go is um is definitely important.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: So um I am kind of wondering, just kind of on those on that same note, like you know, as a as an art educator as you're trying to design your your curriculum or you know, kind of build some some of these reflective practices or routines into your into your daily your daily habit.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um how do we rather than it just being kind of like an exit ticket or kind of a oh yeah, I need to have them tell me why they're blah blah blah.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_02: Give me that self-evaluation or just an artist statement at the end.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, rather than just treating it that way.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like what what are what are some what are some things or how can people go about maybe trying to you know introduce that into their into their habit?
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think um with SEL, I think um mindfulness is the best thing you can do.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, sometimes, you know, I can be very like uh what's the reality of this?
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because I can feel, you know, we're human, so it's gonna make some people uncomfortable, but um asking students questions um about themselves, about where they're at before they start art making, I think like um it's not that I I expect them to focus, because uh I think uh engagement is also being yourself in the space and uh interacting with others if you choose to be, if you choose to do that.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um so it's not a sense of focus, but more like uh just feeling more grounded, especially in a school day.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's uh it can be very hectic and stressful, and you don't even know what you're stressing about or you don't even know what you're worried about.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so what I mean by this is that um one activity I do is that I set up um these, I make these um mindfulness cards that have prompts on them.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: And um there's three colors.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, let's just say red, white, and blue for the sake of that.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so the red ones, I don't tell the students this, but the red ones are sort of just like um uh an all-about you.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: So for example, one of those prompts is um describe your favorite artwork, movie, dance, or song by the way it makes you feel and not the way it looks or sounds or what you like about it.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um so it's just uh they're getting to know themselves.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: And then the next card um starts digging a little bit into the sense of self and who we are as humans.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: For example, create a list of three unanswerable questions like what's the purpose of life?
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: Why are mozzarella sticks so good?
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: Why do you do such stupid things sometimes?
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know?
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: And then the last card gets um a little more personal, makes them a little more vulnerable.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, for example, um, how does your um artwork practice, how does your studio practice do yourself justice?
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_00: Or um even like I try to make light of serious questions.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like, why won't you just release the beast when you make artwork?
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: What's stopping you?
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: You know?
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: So the kids come up, they take one uh card from each deck, and um, I say you don't have to answer all three, you just have to answer one.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: And at least I can um the reason why I give that range is so they have a comfortability level.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I want to do the all about me thing.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_00: I want to ground myself that way.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_00: Or it's like, what is stopping me from releasing the beast of my artwork, you know?
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so they're thinking of themselves that way.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: But um, you know, I think at a certain time, a certain rich Kim would have been like, oh God, are kids gonna really do that?
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: Is that really gonna work?
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: Are they gonna be honest?
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_00: Are they, you know?
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but um, I'm not gonna worry about that, you know.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think a lot of things can factor into that.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_00: I think, again, that at least I'm not giving the most vulnerable question that they need to answer.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'm giving them a range so they can decide their comfortability in answering that question.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: And again, for once in a really long school day, they're just thinking about where they're at in that moment, right then and there.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: And now, not again, they're they're not focused, but they're grounded.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_00: So now they're ready to make art, you know.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that allows their brain to start thinking of themselves and again, selfishly in the most positive way, because it feels uncomfortable to do that, to want to sometimes to want to do think about yourself in a macro sense, to let the ego in and have a conversation with that, you know.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I think that um when it comes to students being reflective, instead of just an exit ticket and seeing if they learned it, I think like grounding them is a good idea.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: I also think um to value critique, I mean, like, gee, I I have a love-hate relationship with critique, and I don't know which I which is more, the love or the hate.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but uh I'll say this like I want to find as many crazy critique ways as possible to just get kids involved and again to have an opinion, to have a voice, to like feel really strongly about something.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_00: So um, like one version I do is uh like in the yearbook when you have superlatives, like most unique, most likely to drop out of school.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so I don't use that one, but um, so like superlatives I would be really crazy if I did.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: But so I have these superlatives.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_00: So um they like walk around and they're looking at the work and they're assigning these superlatives.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I'm not saying this is brainwashing and manipulation is my favorite um pair of to describe my teaching, but um, it's forcing them to look at the work because the number one problem I wanted to address is that when we would have critique and I would say, All right, all right, carousel around, uh they took me literally and carouseled around and but stop.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_00: Look at the work and when we go on field trips to museums, look at the work.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_00: All right, done.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_00: And they're sitting down, like, why are you sitting?
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like, we look, we saw everything.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they're like they're they're so quick to look.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_00: But if they have to assign a superlative, now their brain is brain is saying, all right, I have to make a connection between this language and what I'm visually seeing.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_00: So now they're looking longer at the pieces.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_00: So fine, they're not getting, you know, oh, you gotta fix the contrast in this.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I think this color scheme, you know, fine.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: They're not getting all those visual things, but I think it's a good entry way to let kids have an opinion that feels like it sounds like I like it or I don't like it, but it's not necessarily that, and it is actually feedback.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, mine is the most unique.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, I didn't think mine was unique at all.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it creates that dialogue.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_00: Another critique method I do is called grouping.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_00: I do it in silence, and um, I recommend taking pictures of the artwork and doing this with pictures because the students are gonna touch them a lot, and I don't want to damage the artwork.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_00: So, anyway, um, all the artwork is laid out on the table, and I say, All right, we're gonna be completely silent.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's only gonna be five minutes, you'll survive, I promise.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: So um, there's four table groupings.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_00: I want to see four different groupings by the end of this.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_00: There's 24 artworks, I'm gonna see four, and there could be two on one, there could be 18 on another, there could be three on another, but for whatever reason you think, oh, these colors match.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I want to put all the artworks of the the colors over here, or these um projects over here, they all have a 3D element.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_00: Whatever reason, just group them.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_00: And they're like, how do we know what we're grouping them for?
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_00: How do we know what the other person's thinking?
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, you don't.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_00: You're all 24 kids are just moving around, moving these artworks, and again, it's forcing them to look at the artwork, to study it, to make an opinion and say, All right, I'm gonna put this here.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_00: So now kids are moving things, and then one piece will just be moved, and another kid will grab that piece and move that piece immediately to another group.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll be looking around and playing games, and I'm not gonna lie, I like um I'm a manifesto kind of guy, like I said, so I'll move one just to be rogue for no reason.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_00: And they'll be like, and then like then we actually start conversing and having fun with each other, like, Mr.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_00: Cam, why'd you move that one?
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_00: That group was perfect.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, no, I can't tell you why.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_00: We can talk, even though I said it's a silent grouping, but I'm not gonna tell you why.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_00: And kids will do crazy things, like kids have literally built bridges between two tables and put artwork in the middle and saying, No, you know, so again, it's like um a different way to critique artwork.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_00: They're forcing them to really, it is actually authentically appreciating each other's artwork and making judgments and opinions about them that are obviously um, even if they can articulate it, they are backed up by information because they're moving them around, you know, they're making uh they're making visual connections.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_00: So I think um as much critique as you can have in that sense, um, you know, it trains their brain to also think that way when they're making the artwork, not just when they're assessing everyone's altogether as a group.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I suggest those um two activities or ideas.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_02: I am going to go offer questions and throw anyone at you.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_02: Oh no.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_02: I I think one of the things is uh I've been thinking a lot about just the word contemporary since we've been talking and thinking about you know teaching as a contemporary as well.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um but I'm also thinking about something you said earlier about you know it's kind of our responsibility to continue to research and learn about what is contemporary in the now.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm curious what you would recommend for teachers, you know, in their very busy lives for staying contemporary, for learning new, you know, about new contemporary artists and their practices and their processes.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um you know, looking is really important, and I think I ended the first podcast with this where like we are so blessed in this age of YouTube where like art historians, gallerists, influencers, they're like doing walkthroughs of you know art shows in Paris and New York, and like I don't have, you know, like I said, I probably should be a good artist and see it in person, but um, we're busy, we have lines, so um looking at the work um is one thing.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_00: But if I'm being honest with you, like all uh I know I'm making it sound simple, but we're like human beings are stubborn.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_00: It really is just the mindset that you know, I guess the typical responses that I that frustrate me the most are from elementary school teachers that like that's chaos, kids will never be able to do that.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, they do that naturally, they want to do it.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_00: They take crayons and draw all over the walls, they take like a bunch of gunk and like mommy, look what I did, and they're covered in brownie mix, and you're like, ah, and like, and in my head, I'm like, wow, that's the first really cool performance piece.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_00: It really is just the mind, it's really just the mindset of like um it's interesting because it's not even a teacher or an artist or uh a thing, it's just a human thing of just like let go of that control.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_00: Stop saying that you're not capable or it's gonna be disastrous if you give elementary school kids freedom or that, you know, be okay.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like I said, it's like um being in the now, being okay with unknowns.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like, give a prompt where you really don't know, like, is this gonna work?
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_00: And it's okay if that like you're gonna get more information from that than, like I said, your SMART goal where you already know what the outcome is, you already know the lesson's gonna work.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_00: And like it's totally fine to do lessons like that too.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_00: Again, my idea isn't that you should only be doing contemporary stuff, it's just like open up that range, though, you know.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and if can if the only the simplest idea of like contemporary art that everyone complicates is that you can make whatever you want and the possibility is endless, then like I think we need to work backwards from that idea that like it's not about a facsimile or even just challenging yourself and saying, Yeah, I do give choices, Rich, but like more choices.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_00: And then when you have a you create a project that you create a lot of choice, and there's like you know, three or four kind of general mediums or outcomes, tell yourself, okay, how do I make even more choices?
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_00: How do I make a student come up to me and say, I want, I'm not a tap dancer and I'm not a sound person, but I want to get these tap shoes and I'm gonna bang them on the table, and that's gonna be the result to the prompt you gave us.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_00: I want a student to be, I want, I want to be wowed and shocked by that kind of sense.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_00: Not a technical proficiency, that weird brag that I know I can already get them to, not to like the most innovative or the best idea in the class.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_00: Something where a kid is saying, you know what, my brain said this to do, and like that's really a true reflection of who I am, of myself, of the way I think, of the way I feel.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_00: So I I really think it's just the mindset of letting go.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_00: But that's not sometimes that's not easy, you know.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_00: Even for me, even for me.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I was I I was wanting to ask yet another question, but I I'm I'm afraid that you'll drop even more wisdom on us.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna cut you the chase here and you know, go for the the the question that everyone is uh always dreading, um, which is our our question our hardest question of all, which is what's one thing you wanna in addition, do you wanna leave with our listeners?
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_02: Whether it's parting wisdom.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, for full transparency, this was the question that I rewrote like about 18 million times before.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_00: It is the heart, you know, it is very hard to answer.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, other than to buy Art Education Manifesto by Richard Kim on Amazon.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um that kind of worked in it.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_00: You know what?
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's so cringe.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_02: We're gonna make sure that link is shared.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_00: You guys are so awesome.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think it's like just to give uh one more little like push and nudge to everybody who's listening.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I come from a certain time where um, you know, no excuses.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_00: Nope, nope, you can't do that.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_00: No, you don't want to do it where you're gonna you will where you are gonna do it and it's gonna toughen you up and yada yada yada.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I've also lived in the time where like, no, it gives me anxiety.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not gonna do it.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_00: No, I'm gonna put myself first and say no.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_00: No, I'm gonna take care of my mental health.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_00: But like, it's not that I'm going backwards, but I'm just, again, a mindset deciding the things that stress me out, the things that worry me.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_00: I'm no longer gonna attach these negative connotations to that.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm gonna understand that patience and grace, you know, when I talk about all these things that I've learned, like I again, I said this last time, it didn't happen overnight.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_00: It happened in such a weird way, in such a weird path.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_00: I wish I could give better information and say, do this.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_00: This is specifically the strategy you need to do to get from point A to B.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_00: But it's just accumulation.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_00: But like if you don't have that manifesto attitude or approach, not attitude, um, you can't accumulate anything.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you're kind of like circling around.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, it's almost like uh just operating in your comfort zone or what you know or in your vacuum.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, some days you are gonna need that.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_00: Your ego, yourself, is gonna need you to operate in that vacuum.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_00: But don't um make things that may be scary or stressful or worrisome or difficult to decode or figure out.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_00: Don't make those indefinitely have negative connotations that you uh eventually avoid them forever.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you can work at your own pace, you can go back to something, you can um, you know, it doesn't have to be uh right now.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_00: So just take some time for yourself, but also um, you know, all kinds of stress are good.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_00: All things, you know, all that stuff is gonna inform what you do because it's not easy.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but um, I will be, you know, I'm probably one of many, many, just like you guys, that um not trying to sound corny, but like not not only is it worth it, it's just like I just again, I feel like I'm teaching and learning um more than I ever have in my life at this point.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and I think like uh that's very uh exciting and encouraging.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_02: No, I was just I'm not again, I'm emphatically nodding because until they as you move through your career and you you find these different phases of your career and and your thinking evolves and your your interactions with humans evolve and you really start to realize what matters and what doesn't, and you know, like you wrote a manifesto, like those are what that's what matters, you know, and that's I think that's where it is, you know.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um but I just um thank you so much, which I'm just blown away every time we visit with you.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I did I do want to take that moment for you to do like a little little shout out about the book, where people can purchase it, and you know, of course, we'll have the link available with the materials with the podcast.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_00: So um it's Art Education Manifesto, it's um available on Amazon.com if you um just Google that or you Google my name, Richard Kim, and um not so much a plug because I cringing doing this, but um I I would say as a something that I will say that's a positive of it, of it, I is that I think it's very accessible.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um there's a lot of storytelling in there, how I felt when I was a student making art, how I felt stories from when I was a teacher, um teaching students how to make art, um little secret art projects that I never told anybody because I was self-conscious of.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_00: Everything that comes that we feel as artists and teachers, there's a lot of storytelling in there.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um there's also over 47 lessons, which is a lot.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and I preface that in terms of giving you a framework of like, you know, maybe not to just copy them if you want to, that's totally fine, but just as a framework to um get your brain going and to think in a certain way.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_00: Also, the book is littered, littered with student artwork.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_00: So um, even if you don't actually end up reading the book, at least you have a uh a range of photographs of student artwork of saying, Oh, a kid can do this, then a kid can do this in my class too.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so I think the accessibility of it and the language is very, very easy.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_01: Rich, I'm so glad.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_01: We're so glad that um we finally were able to make this all work and that you were able to be back on the on the podcast.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate it so much.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_00: I love um talking with you guys all the time.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_01: And um I mean it's how do you respond?
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's just so good, and and I think the hardest thing about doing the podcast sometimes is you're so deep in thought and you're listening to these great ideas, and and then it's like I don't have anything as good to say.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_01: Oh I there were quite a few times I'm like, okay, I'm just gonna let Rich just jump because there's he was covering so many things.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_02: I just he's sharing resources.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_02: So speaking of those resources, speaking of resources, where do listeners go find them?
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_01: Where do you go?
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you go to davisart.com and you look under free resources and you'll find the podcast as well as each episode, because you could actually stream each episode from the Davis site, which is pretty cool.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then with each episode they have a resource page that um all the things that the guests got to share.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_02: You know, when when someone has a really great idea and and you know, maybe they write a book like Rich or they just have things they want to share and talk about, or they're you know, excited about some research, how can they reach out to us to say, hey, I got an idea to share.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_01: I got an idea.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_01: I got a book.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um so one of the best ways is going to be through Instagram at creativity.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um another way, if you're maybe not on social media, is to send us an email uh at thecreativity at gmail.com and we would love to hear from you.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_02: And then if you do us the wonderful favor of making sure that you sub subscribe subscribe, that's a hard word tonight.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen to it, and make sure that you rate it and you know share it with others.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_02: We really, really appreciate it.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_02: It helps us keep the podcast going.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but most of all, I'd like to wish everyone a very creative week ahead and thank you for listening.