Latest / Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers / #40 Dying to Follow

Transcript

#40 Dying to Follow · Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers

• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, everyone.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: If you were going to start a new movement or a new business,
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: probably the way you would do it is to promise people success.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: Your lives are going to be better.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: You're going to make more money.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: You're going to be famous.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: And when you look at infomercials,
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: when you look at YouTube influencers,
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: you've got promise after promise after promise.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: Tim, just like the things you promised Terry and I regarding the podcast.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 0:47
  I promised you that we would do this and then we would make
• 0:50
  absolutely nothing.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: We would do this for the sheer joy of doing it.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: But if you're going to start a movement,
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: the last thing you probably want to say is,
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: look,
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'm starting a new movement and it's all about dying.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think?
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: Who's in?
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: So you're probably not going to get a lot of recruits.
• 1:10
  And yet here we've got Christianity,
• 1:12
  which billions of people subscribe to it.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: So what is it about Jesus' invitation to die to follow him?
• 1:21
  that has captured the imagination in human history and repels
• 1:25
  others at the same time,
• 1:26
  right?
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: Because it doesn't make much sense.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: So we are picking up on the heels.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: We're doing a Mark Bible study.
• 1:33
  And we have really slowed down the last couple of weeks to
• 1:37
  focus on Jesus teaching
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: his disciples in Caesarea Philippi.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's in Caesarea Philippi,
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: the Las Vegas of Israel,
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: where Jesus asks his disciples,
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: who do you say that I am?
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: You've been following me for a while.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: What are your conclusions?
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: Peter said, you're the Messiah.
• 1:56
  We talked about how his understanding of Messiah was one of a
• 2:01
  conquering hero.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: And then we said last week that Jesus turns that upside down and said,
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: no,
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to be a Messiah who dies.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: And then he and Peter have a rather heated conversation about that.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: Now Jesus turns his attention to what it looks like to be his follower.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: If his mission in life is to lead through dying,
• 2:24
  then it might stand to reason that that's what his followers
• 2:27
  will be called to do
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: as well.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: And Jesus doesn't disappoint.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: So we're going to have Arizona Actress of the Year, famous voice actress.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: actor who has narrated many,
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: many books,
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: including the Adventures of Toby Baxter books,
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: and has done a superb job.
• 2:45
  We're going to have Terry Summers read for us in the way that
• 2:50
  only Terry Summers can read.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_02: It's getting dizzy!
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: Let's do it.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: This is Mark chapter 8, verses 34 through 30 whatever, 8.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: Here we go.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: Then...
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_02: Calling the crowd to join his disciples,
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_02: he said,
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: if any of you wants to be my follower,
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_02: you must give up your own way.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_02: Take up your cross and follow me.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_02: If you try to hang on to your life, you will lose it.
• 3:25
  But if you give up your life for my sake and for the sake of
• 3:30
  the good news,
• 3:32
  you will save it.
• 3:34
  And what do you benefit if you gain the whole world but lose
• 3:38
  your own soul?
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_02: Is anything worth more than your soul?
• 3:42
  If anyone is ashamed of me and my message in these adulterous
• 3:50
  and sinful days,
• 3:52
  the Son of Man will be ashamed of that person when he returns
• 3:58
  in the glory of his
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_02: Father and the holy angels.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: Well, there's not much there.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you guys have any other comments.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: Now let's set the scene a little bit.
• 4:17
  Let's put it,
• 4:17
  let's put it in,
• 4:18
  in context,
• 4:20
  maybe the United States of America.
• 4:25
  When you walk down the street,
• 4:28
  you see the street lined with electric chairs and
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: And there are bodies in those electric chairs.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: And as you walk by,
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: you just see people,
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: the button is pushed and these people are electrocuted to death.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: And you're walking down the street with Jesus.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: He said,
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: hey,
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: if you want to be my follower,
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: you need to take up your electric chair and follow me.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: I think at that point, we'd say, man, Jesus, have a good day.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: God bless you.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: I'm out of here.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: This guy is nuts.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: They would have that same.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: Only as horrifying as the electric chair is,
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: there has never been a form of torture as devastating as the cross.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: And they would all know that they would all see it.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: The cross was not only this form of horrific punishment,
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: it was ultimate and dehumanizing people.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: It was seen as a curse.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's just nothing, nothing.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: compelling about taking up a cross.
• 5:34
  And so the listeners to this must have thought,
• 5:39
  what is this guy talking about?
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: To take up a cross?
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: What kind of Messiah does that?
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: Messiahs take up swords.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: Messiahs ride on horses.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: Messiahs ride in tanks.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: Messiahs take up their AK-46s or whatever those things are called.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: Messiahs don't take up forms of death for themselves.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: They may kill others in the process to try to reach the ultimate good.
• 6:13
  But messiahs don't give up their own lives for the ultimate good,
• 6:17
  nor call their followers to.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: So this is a really,
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: really interesting chapter or passage because we,
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: as Christian people,
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: this side of the cross,
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: we understand now what Jesus is saying.
• 6:33
  But hearing it for the first time before Jesus goes to the
• 6:36
  cross and dies,
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: there's no context for it.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why you don't even really hear any response to it.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: He just sort of puts it out there.
• 6:46
  And the author doesn't tell us how horrified they all must have
• 6:50
  been with that statement.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: So we're going to try to,
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: to the best of our ability,
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: tease out a little bit what Jesus is saying here.
• 7:00
  But I am curious to see,
• 7:03
  we'll start with John because he made Terry read today.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: John, your initial impressions of...
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 7:16
  I actually was thinking I wanted to read from the message
• 7:20
  because I'm super jealous
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_01: that Terry always gets to read.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: So please do.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: The message.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have it for us?
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: Just before we started the podcast,
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: I said Terry should always read because she just is fantastic.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's a God-given gift that she has.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: And the rest of us just read.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: But when she reads...
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like drawn into the text.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: So I'll do a disservice because to the listeners and read it,
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: the message,
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: because I have it pulled up.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: But I think it's super interesting on this.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I'd like to see what you say about it, Tim.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: This is the message.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: Calling to the crowd to join the disciples.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: He said, anyone who intends to come with me has to let me lead.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: You're not in the driver's seat.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: I am.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: Don't run from suffering.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: Embrace it.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: Follow me and I'll show you how.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_01: Self-help is no help at all.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: Self-sacrifice is the way, my way, to saving yourself, your true self.
• 8:20
  What good would it do to get everything you want and lose you,
• 8:25
  the real you?
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: What could you ever trade your soul for?
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: I think that there's some helpful things in there.
• 8:36
  I think he loses the shock and the horror and the scandal of
• 8:44
  what Jesus is saying
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: by removing any reference to a cross.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: I think that was your original question.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: So while you're kind of mulling on that,
• 8:53
  let me just say that this is one of those places in scripture
• 8:57
  that is shocking
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: enough that it makes me think,
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know what my answer would have been.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, honestly, that just sounds like a lot.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a couple of places in scripture,
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_01: that have sort of the same reaction to me.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: My honest gut reaction is,
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_01: I'd like to be able to say at this point,
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: all right,
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: I'm in,
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: but I don't know.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: Terry.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_02: Well,
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_02: hearing the message read and I think I have to say,
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_02: and of course it's this side of everything that,
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_02: that this darkness of how Jesus communicates was so
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_02: for lack of a better term,
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_02: brilliant,
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_02: because it was really cutting and kind of,
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_02: and,
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_02: and,
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_02: I also have to remember being human,
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_02: the trepidation that he had to have had in contemplating what was coming.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_02: So that's where, that's where Jesus is.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_02: So, um,
• 10:18
  trustworthy I guess is the word that comes to mind or like
• 10:22
  shows himself worthy of
• 10:24
  me to say and I agree with you John I don't know if I would
• 10:27
  have then but for me to
• 10:29
  say because he understands the scary of that because he's
• 10:35
  sitting in it or standing
• 10:36
  in it himself and not yet to have experienced it it's coming
• 10:40
  but I don't know
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_02: that they would have known literally,
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_02: figuratively what he meant or,
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_02: or,
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_02: and taking it so literally.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't know.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not, I guess I'm just sort of mudding the waters on that.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_02: But one thing that I kind of retreated from,
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_02: from the message,
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_02: nothing against it is I feel like he alluded to sacrifice.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_02: Our sacrificing was somehow where the,
• 11:12
  where the where the wind was when that part is was really
• 11:16
  already taken care of it
• 11:19
  would be taken care of in his sacrifice yeah so that so it
• 11:22
  didn't it didn't kind of
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_02: paint the same um picture but yeah so yeah i i think it's helpful
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: to first say what Jesus is not saying here.
• 11:39
  And a lot of times you'll hear people say,
• 11:41
  well,
• 11:41
  this is the cross I bear.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: This is the cross that I've had to carry.
• 11:50
  And when they're talking about that,
• 11:51
  they mean some sort of challenge in their lives.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's a challenge to their personal life.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: It might be a rebellious child.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, she's the cross I bear.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: It might be cancer.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: This illness is the cross that I bear.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: When Jesus talks about taking up the cross,
• 12:11
  he's not talking about bad things that happen to us or
• 12:16
  challenging things that
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: happen to us of a personal nature.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: Taking up the cross is not about me seeking out suffering and
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's not about the suffering necessarily that I'm going through.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus,
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: when he's talking about taking up the cross,
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: and that's not to minimize the suffering people are going through,
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus is using taking up the cross missionally.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: It is about how we respond to the world.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's about our approach to the world.
• 12:59
  And we're going to be teasing this out now for quite a bit
• 13:03
  because from this point on,
• 13:05
  the rest of the book is about the death of Jesus and what it
• 13:09
  means and what it's
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: saying about God.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: But one of the helpful ways,
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: I think,
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: at least for me,
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: of thinking about the cross is that the cross...
• 13:22
  is the way that God enters into solidarity with broken human
• 13:27
  suffering human beings.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: That on the cross,
• 13:32
  God experiences what it is to suffer and comes alongside of us
• 13:39
  in our suffering.
• 13:41
  On the cross,
• 13:43
  God as a human being experiences what it's like to feel
• 13:46
  forsaken by God.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: On the cross,
• 13:52
  God in the person of Jesus experiences what it's like to be
• 13:55
  betrayed by people you love,
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: to have people abandon you when you have been going through a tough time.
• 14:05
  It's about what it's like as a human being to be attacked by
• 14:09
  your enemies and not
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: only misunderstood by them,
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: but misrepresented.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's through the cross that God enters into solidarity with us,
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: enters into our suffering and walks into our suffering with us.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so when Jesus says,
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: take up your cross and follow me,
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: he's not saying,
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: I want you to go now and suffer,
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: or I want you to find ways to suffer.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: He's saying, I want you to identify that.
• 14:42
  Areas where people are suffering and enter into their suffering
• 14:45
  with them and bring
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: grace to them.
• 14:50
  To take up the cross is not about me stepping back and,
• 14:54
  oh man,
• 14:55
  I'm hurting,
• 14:56
  I'm broken.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: We need times like that.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: But Jesus is saying to follow him is to do what he does.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: And to do what he does is to give his life for people.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's entering into suffering and not just suffering alongside of people,
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: but when we can,
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: helping them.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: So it is, to take up the cross is to feed the poor.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: To take up the cross is to love our enemies and turn the other cheek.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: To take up the cross is to pray for people who are hurting.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: To take up the cross is to stand against forms of oppression,
• 15:34
  to stand against forms of racism and anti-Semitism that rob
• 15:38
  people of their humanity.
• 15:41
  we may suffer in the process,
• 15:43
  but the point isn't for me to take on suffering.
• 15:45
  The point for me is to enter into the suffering of others and
• 15:48
  to bring grace and reconciliation,
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: and if at all possible,
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: to bring about a change in their situation.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: Go ahead, John.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: Because losing your life,
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: though,
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: certainly sounds like he's saying,
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: let the suffering begin for each one of you.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: I think what he's saying isn't,
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: he isn't saying lose your life in the sense of,
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: again,
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: go and seek suffering.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: I think what he's saying is,
• 16:17
  maybe a better way of saying it is invest your life in the
• 16:20
  lives of broken,
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: hurting people,
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: the way that I am.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe that's a little better way of saying it.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: Invest your life.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: So let me contrast it before you make your comment.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: There is a strain of Christianity called prosperity gospel.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: which is not what Christianity is about,
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: but essentially it says,
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: if you do these things,
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: then God will reward you,
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: and you're going to live this good life.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: You're going to live a wealthy life.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: That is the antithesis of cross theology.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: The cross isn't about gaining for myself.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: The cross is about putting myself out there for the sake of other people.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: And in the process,
• 17:07
  as I enter in their suffering,
• 17:08
  I may suffer myself,
• 17:09
  but the point isn't for me to suffer.
• 17:12
  The point is for me to walk alongside people who are suffering
• 17:14
  and to try to help them,
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: not to gain for myself.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: Go ahead, John.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yeah, but now I have other comments that I'm going to forget.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: That's all right.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: So I just want to, so what I would say is if you're, you know,
• 17:31
  A lot of what we talk about are things that just have this
• 17:36
  beauty of depth of exploration.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I would say that,
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 17:42
  if the prosperity gospel is something that a listener is
• 17:47
  hearing and is thinking about,
• 17:50
  I would just encourage you that it's probably worth some more
• 17:53
  thinking about.
• 17:54
  I mean,
• 17:54
  it's just a it's it's something that you probably want to spend
• 17:58
  some time with.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: So like so many other things are things that you want to spend time with.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: That's just my take, of course.
• 18:07
  And in this particular section though,
• 18:09
  Tim,
• 18:10
  I think what I'm waiting to ask you
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: is to walk us through the very last sentence,
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: which looks super close to an if-then statement from Jesus himself.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: If I do this, then this bad thing is gonna happen.
• 18:28
  And oftentimes those if-then statements are one of those areas
• 18:34
  of beauty that
• 18:35
  require some depth of exploration with God and with the
• 18:39
  community around you.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: it turns out that there's probably some troubling theology in there,
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: but also some,
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: flip the coin,
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: some real beautiful theology.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: Is that right?
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:51
  I think that there are some things that I wish Jesus had never said,
• 18:55
  and that's one of them.
• 18:58
  Because he makes our jobs as Christians and as articulators of
• 19:04
  the Christian faith
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: really difficult.
• 19:06
  Because you're going along,
• 19:07
  you say,
• 19:07
  okay,
• 19:07
  yeah,
• 19:07
  that makes sense,
• 19:08
  that makes sense.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: Wait, you just said what?
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: So it's kind of like Peter.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'd pull him aside and say, you know, there are better ways to say that.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: And then Jesus would say, thank you, Tim.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: That's very nice.
• 19:20
  Why don't you just get back there and hang with me for a while
• 19:23
  and let's see what this means.
• 19:28
  And just hang on,
• 19:29
  hang in there for a while,
• 19:31
  because I really do know what I'm talking about.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I do want to come back to that,
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: John,
• 19:37
  but I do want to kind of make sure that we get the heart of
• 19:42
  what Jesus is saying here.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: When he's saying deny yourself,
• 19:47
  he's not saying go live like a hermit and just live with the
• 19:52
  bare essentials.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: Some of us may feel called to that.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: That's great.
• 19:57
  But what Jesus is saying here to deny ourselves essentially is
• 20:00
  to say,
• 20:02
  let's
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: put ourselves out there for the sake of others.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: And then it's when we find, that's when we find purpose in life.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: That's when we find what life is really all about.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's found in being where Jesus is.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: And where Jesus is,
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: is with the suffering and the hurting,
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: the broken,
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: the sinner,
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: the tax collector,
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: the hungry,
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: the oppressed.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: That's where Jesus is.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, he's with middle-class people as well.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: And we've all got our own stuff.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: But be where Jesus is.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: Do what Jesus does.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's where life is found.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: Go ahead, Terry.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um,
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_02: one of the words that you used,
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_02: uh,
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_02: just back a few minutes ago in terms of the,
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_02: um,
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_02: what the cross is to us.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like I,
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_02: if I recall correctly,
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_02: you use the word solidarity,
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_02: that it's God's solidarity with us.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_02: Is that how you worded it?
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 20:55
  That's the word solidarity seems to kind of say so much if
• 20:59
  we're in solidarity with
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_02: Jesus and he's,
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_02: um,
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_02: about,
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_02: uh,
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_02: helping,
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_02: loving,
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_02: standing with,
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_02: being on behalf of others,
• 21:13
  then we're in solidarity with him and we're in solidarity with
• 21:16
  each other.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_02: So we wouldn't, so solidarity is,
• 21:22
  I just pulled it up while you were talking,
• 21:23
  no offense,
• 21:24
  but I've now closed it.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_02: But just to look at the word,
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 21:28
  it just means we're in agreement and we're here with each other
• 21:31
  and standing with.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_02: So that's just a great word.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_02: Unless I'm taking it too literally when you said that.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: No, I think that's a very powerful aspect of what the cross is about.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: And again, this is saying something about God, the creator.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: And part of what Jesus is saying,
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: and we'll say through the cross,
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: and then Paul's going to pick this up in his letters.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: We always look for God in the powerful moments.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: We look for God in strength.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: And God, to use the language of Luther, hides God's self on the cross.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: That's the last place you would expect to find God is on a cross.
• 22:18
  And yet that's where God is fully revealed to us about the kind
• 22:22
  of God this God is.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: That this is a God who uses God's power to enter into our suffering,
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: to suffer with us,
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: to bleed with us,
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: to hurt with us.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: And then ultimately,
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: by entering into all of that,
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: brings resurrection,
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: life,
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: forgiveness,
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: and hope.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: This is a God who is not to be feared.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: This is not a God who is distant.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: This is a God who is right there in these moments with us.
• 22:53
  And that's what it means to take up the cross,
• 22:54
  to be in those moments with people.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: And as we said last week, for Jesus, this isn't just spiritual stuff.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: This is real life stuff.
• 23:06
  How do I stand in solidarity with my addicted brother-in-law,
• 23:09
  for example?
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't have an addicted brother-in-law, but if I did.
• 23:12
  Or how do I stand in solidarity with those teenage girls who
• 23:19
  right now are really
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: struggling with body image stuff because of social media?
• 23:22
  How do we stand in solidarity with them and then offer them
• 23:27
  hope through the gospel?
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: How do we stand in solidarity with the hungry, the oppressed?
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: Those are that's what it means to take up the cross.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what it means really to lose ourselves,
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: because now we're we're not talking about me,
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: me,
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: me.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: We're talking about other people.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: And in that process, I become more fully human.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: Really,
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: the more I'm invested in others,
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: the more fully human are the less I'm invested in others.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: And the more I'm about myself, the less human I become.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: And we've certainly seen examples of that over and over again,
• 24:00
  of people basically losing all humanity because they have
• 24:05
  accumulated so much stuff
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: it's become just about them.
• 24:10
  And then how do we enter into solidarity with that kind of a
• 24:12
  person who desperately
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: needs grace as well?
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: So yes, solidarity is going to be one of the big themes now that we have.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: The solidarity,
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: again,
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: with God forsakenness,
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: with being treated wrongly by enemies and loneliness and despair,
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: death enters into solidarity with us,
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: our fear of death.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's the one great equalizer.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: Grace is the great equalizer.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: Death is the great equalizer.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: So that's what Jesus is saying here.
• 24:43
  It's not about actively going out and doing things so that
• 24:46
  someone will kill me.
• 24:48
  It's not about actively going out and suffering,
• 24:51
  causing myself to suffer.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's about entering into the suffering of others.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: Now, to John's question.
• 25:01
  Those who are ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and
• 25:06
  sinful generation,
• 25:08
  of them...
• 25:10
  The Son of Man will also be ashamed when he comes in the glory
• 25:14
  of his Father with
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: the holy angels.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: And let me just read the next verse then.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: And then he said to them,
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: Truly I tell you,
• 25:23
  there are some standing here who will not taste death until
• 25:26
  they see the kingdom of
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: God has come with power.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: Now, isn't that interesting?
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: Because he's just talked about power is different.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: I actually have a footnote here.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: Where's my C?
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: Or in power.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: Comes either with power or in power.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: And,
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: of course,
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: the power of the kingdom of God is found in a cross and resurrection,
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: not in a sword,
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: not in defeating nations,
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: etc.,
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: So what do we do with this verse?
• 25:59
  Those who are ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and
• 26:02
  sinful generation
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_00: of them,
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: the son of man will also be ashamed when he comes in glory of his,
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: in the glory of his father with the holy angels.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: John, can you read what the message says on that?
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have that up still?
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: I do.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: Uh,
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: I think I do.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: Here you go, from the message.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: If any of you are embarrassed over me and the way I'm leading you,
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: when you get around your fickle and unfocused friends,
• 26:34
  know that you'll be an even greater embarrassment to the Son of
• 26:37
  Man when he arrives
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: in all the splendor of God,
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: his Father,
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: with an army of the holy angels.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that didn't soften it at all, did it?
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: No, that's no help.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 26:54
  I think these are,
• 26:55
  first of all,
• 26:56
  let's just say,
• 26:57
  these are passages that we really wrestle with.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: Because they,
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: for our ears today,
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: especially in the light of what we know about Christianity,
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: that Jesus isn't ashamed of any of us,
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: that he loves us all,
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: this
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: It can be a challenging verse.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: And the first thing I would say is,
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: and I was sort of saying it tongue-in-cheek a little earlier,
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: just get back behind Jesus and let's see where he takes us on this.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: And we'll have more depth of meaning as we hang out with Jesus more.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: The second thing I would say is,
• 27:35
  we always need to be careful about letting one verse define the
• 27:39
  whole gospel for us.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: So it would be easy to say, well, see, look, there is condemnation.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: If you aren't on Jesus' side, he's going to be ashamed of you.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: You're going to roast in hell for the rest of your eternity.
• 27:52
  Well,
• 27:52
  it doesn't say that,
• 27:53
  but it would be easy to come to that conclusion.
• 27:58
  And that's just one verse after he's just encouraged us to
• 28:01
  enter into the suffering with others.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: I think one way to look at this is,
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: is to take it in the context of what he's just said.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: What will it profit to gain the whole world and forfeit your life?
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: Indeed, what can they give in return for their own life?
• 28:28
  And so I wonder if in part what he's saying is,
• 28:34
  this is kind of what happens.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: If you get all focused on yourself,
• 28:39
  you're going to lose sight of me and you're going to lose sight
• 28:44
  of what life is really about.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so if you're ashamed of me,
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: in other words,
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: if taking up the cross is a line too far,
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: you're going to lose yourself in the wrong way.
• 29:03
  You're going to sort of lose out on what it really means to be
• 29:06
  a human being.
• 29:08
  And I think that at least helps set the context for what he's
• 29:13
  saying here.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: And if it's just another way of sort of saying,
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: what does it profit a person to gain the whole world and lose their soul?
• 29:20
  If you want to find life,
• 29:23
  they're found in these words that I'm teaching you.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: If they're too much for you,
• 29:28
  you're going to sort of end up on the wrong side of the deal in
• 29:31
  terms of your life
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: and life experience.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: This is not a verse saying you're going to go to hell.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: In the context, that's not what it's saying.
• 29:41
  This is saying something about the context of serving Jesus and
• 29:45
  not serving Jesus.
• 29:47
  And sort of losing the fulfillment of life that God has for us
• 29:54
  if we don't do that.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_00: So that's part of how I would read this.
• 29:57
  I need to go a little deeper into some study to see what others
• 30:00
  are saying.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: But that's the context that sets the stage for that verse.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 30:08
  part of me wanted you to say he was only referring to those
• 30:11
  adulterous and sinful
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: days 2,000 years ago.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: Sure, we could do that too.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: No, not at all.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: But I don't think that's true.
• 30:20
  So what I have to tell myself sometimes is there's so much
• 30:25
  depth and beauty here
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: that there are going to be some things that I'm going to wrestle with.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I might not get sort of some insight on that for a while.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: It might not be today.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: That might not be Monday.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 30:39
  and it's always good to remember we need all of Scripture to
• 30:43
  help us interpret
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: passages of Scripture.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: And again,
• 30:47
  the context here is that Jesus is saying God enters into all of
• 30:51
  life with us,
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: solidarity with us,
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: and the way to the Jesus life is by doing the same,
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: entering into solidarity with other people.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: And to not do that, you just sort of miss out on the Jesus life.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: That's the context for all of what's happening in that passage,
• 31:10
  which helps bring a little bit of sense to a really difficult
• 31:15
  verse at this point.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: Terry, anything you'd like to add before we hang up the phone?
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_02: I think probably not because my, I mean, I do struggle with that verse.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_02: And we're, you know, I know we're,
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_02: nearing a time when we're going to bring this episode to a close,
• 31:33
  but maybe we can pick it up next week or at least touch on it
• 31:36
  sometime because my upbringing,
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_02: uh,
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_02: would say,
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_02: um,
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_02: well,
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_02: Jesus said it.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_02: And, um,
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um,
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_02: those are things you don't split hairs over or you don't,
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_02: or so my upbringing would say,
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_02: what,
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_02: what are you going to say about that?
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_02: Like,
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_02: it's like,
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_02: he's pretty clear,
• 32:01
  but I know there's more going on and in the context and I'm
• 32:04
  absorbing it all,
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_02: but I do wrestle with that.
• 32:08
  That's what makes my pendulum sort of go back and forth on
• 32:12
  other things because of
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_02: that verse as well.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:16
  And of course,
• 32:16
  Jesus is the one who said,
• 32:17
  if your hand causes you to sin,
• 32:18
  lop it off.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't seen many Christians who've done that.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: Or if your eye causes you to sin, poke it out.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: I don't see many Christians doing that.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_02: No, no.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's always context.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus is something really important there.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's always context.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: And the context of this verse is not about going to hell.
• 32:35
  The context of this verse is about investing our lives in the
• 32:39
  lives of other people.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: And as we do that, we find ourselves.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: And so in some ways,
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus may be saying,
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_00: if you're ashamed of doing that,
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: then you'll find out that you've missed out on the Jesus life.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_02: So he does have an opinion about those that might be ashamed.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 33:02
  But this,
• 33:02
  but it's not in the context that you're going to go and spend
• 33:05
  eternity in hell.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, no, no, no, no.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_02: I,
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_02: I,
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_02: I completely,
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_02: I'm,
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_02: I'm with you on there,
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_02: but I'm saying in terms of him going,
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_02: okay,
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_02: all right,
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: Terry.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, there could be that tone.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus is saying, yeah, Jesus says, if you want to follow me.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: And if this is what it looks like.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that hurts.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not a sort of if-then deal because Jesus is saying,
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_00: I've already called you to follow me.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_00: This is what it looks like.
• 33:37
  And he's basically saying,
• 33:40
  this is what discipleship looks like for my followers.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: Every rabbi had their own set of this is what it looks like to follow me.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_00: And you want to follow me, then do what I do.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_00: And what do I do?
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: Enter into solidarity with people.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_00: I bring grace to people.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: I love on people.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the call.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_00: That's a mark of Christianity.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: So again,
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_00: let's just,
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_00: we'll wrap it up by saying,
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: when two people get married,
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_00: there are certain expectations you have once you're married.
• 34:14
  Well,
• 34:16
  if you're going to marry me,
• 34:16
  then we're going to be faithful to each other.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_00: You're not going to have any more boyfriends.
• 34:22
  You're not going to go sneaking off in the middle of the night,
• 34:24
  not telling me what to do.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: These aren't things that restrict us.
• 34:29
  These are things that we do because we love each other,
• 34:32
  because we have chosen each other.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_00: Now, you could turn your marriage into an if-then.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: If you do this, I'll do this.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: Well, then it's not really a marriage anymore.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_00: It becomes a because-therefore.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: Because you love me, I'm not going to date other women anymore.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: Because you love me,
• 34:49
  I'm not going to sneak out in the middle of the night and not
• 34:52
  tell you what's going on.
• 34:52
  Because you love me,
• 34:53
  I'm not going to cheat on our finances and not tell you.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: Because you love me, these are things I'm not going to do anymore.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_00: And that's basically what Jesus is saying.
• 35:03
  Because I love you and because you love me,
• 35:06
  this is what our relationship looks like.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: And it doesn't change God's grace for us.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus has a mission.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus has a mission,
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_00: and that mission is to bring grace to the world,
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_00: and this is what it looks like.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_00: And we've experienced it.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_00: Now let's share it with other people.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: But don't be afraid of it.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_00: Don't be ashamed of it.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_00: Just get out and be Jesus to people.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_00: So next week,
• 35:33
  we are going to move into each story now that takes us closer
• 35:38
  and closer to the cross.
• 35:41
  We're going to go up the mountain next time with Peter,
• 35:44
  James,
• 35:44
  and John,
• 35:44
  and Jesus.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_00: We're going to meet some old people from the Bible.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_00: Well, older people from the Bible.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: And that'll be next week when we go up the Mount of Transfiguration.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_00: I am Tim Wright, along with John Burgess and Terry Summers.
• 35:57
  And we sure encourage you,
• 35:58
  if you like this podcast,
• 36:00
  share it with your friends.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_00: See ya.