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Off Record: Victim Turned Scammer · The Knife: A True Crime Podcast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Knife Off Record. I'm Hannah Smith.
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: I'm patia Eton, and today I have a story for you, Hannah.
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: I'm so excited to hear it.
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: It's another one from your home state of Oklahoma.
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: Wow, they're just coming to slam dun the story.
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: Not like targeting Oklahoma. Okay, Oklahoma, They're.
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: Just popping up. Let me see your search history.
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: Seriously, Oh god, If my search history ever makes it out,
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: I'm done.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: Everyone will be like, what's wrong with this person? It
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: might be actually the best cover for us, because we're like, well,
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: we're true crime podcasters. We obviously have to research all
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: yeah stuff.
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: Seriously, they would have such a time if I was ever,
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: like on trial for murder going through my forensics, computer forensics.
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, I would not want that job. Okay,
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: So today's story. It's January eighth, twenty twenty five, so
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: a little over a year ago now.
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: An agent Justin Hokitt is at his desk inside the
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: Oklahoma Attorney General's Consumer Protection Unit, and he's working through
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: the usual flow of fraud complaints identity theft online scams,
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: financial exploitation.
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: This is what he does.
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: So the Consumer Protection Unit assists Oklahoma consumers through this
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: is from the website, community outreach and education programs, mediation
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: of complaints, but it also helps take legal action and
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: protect individuals from businesses engaged in deceptive, fraudulent or in
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: for advertising.
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: Or sales practices.
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: Businesses or individuals who are engaging in fraudulent or deceptive practices.
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: Gotcha.
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: So usually a tip or referral comes across an agent's
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: desk from a victim. And you know, with financial crimes,
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: when money's been stolen, it's usually really hard to get back.
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: The damage is done and you know that money's long
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: gone or it's been laundered, and it's just it just
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: becomes hard to recoup.
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: It can be hard to prove as well.
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: It can be really hard to prove and it can
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: take a long time, and people a lot of times
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: if they're waiting for money, don't have that long enough
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: to sort of move on. So this then leaves the
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: victim just trying to piece together how it all happened.
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: But this time a tip comes in from a bank
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: in Oklahoma City and it's mid first bank, so more specifically,
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: the tip comes in from a man named Bill Mohler,
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: a certified fraud examiner at the bank. So, a certified
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: fraud examiner is a credentialed expert trying to prevent, detect,
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: and investigate various types of financial fraud.
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: Wow, so that's like a full time position at a bank.
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess maybe it's like that's a pretty that's
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: like a national bank chain. Yeah, Like he's not I
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: don't think working out of one bank.
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: Right, right. I think he's over something now that I'm
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: saying it. Yeah, Okay, So that's his job, and he
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: is like the one that flags us.
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: Right, he's the one who sends you the text frad alerts.
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: So Bill notices some bank activity that doesn't look quite
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: right to him, and this strange activity starts in October
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: of twenty twenty four. So a woman named Christine Joan
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: Echohawk opens multiple accounts at a mid First Bank branch
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: in Stillwater, Oklahoma. Now, Christine Echohawk is the sole signatory
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: on the accounts, and she lists her home address as
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: being in Pawnee, Oklahoma. Okay, yeah, so it's a little
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: over half an hour from Stillwater. The population in Pawnee
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: is less than two thousand people. Very small town. But
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: there are I checked multiple banks that are closer to her.
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: But she opens the accounts in still Water. Okay, is
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: that like because that's the closest, bigger city. Well I
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: have some guesses as to why, but okay, call, I'll
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: kise them. Yeah, but great question, Hannah.
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: Thanks.
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: So pretty quickly after these accounts are opened, they start
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: receiving sizeable deposits, tens of thousands of dollars at a time,
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: and the deposits are all coming in from out of state.
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: And almost as soon as the money hits these accounts
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  Speaker 2: at mid first they're transferred right back out to a
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: local bank and Pawnee ooh weird. That feels suspicious, suspicious,
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: and you know Bill would agree. So he's curious, like,
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: who is Christine Echo Hawk, Why is she receiving all
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: this money and why is she taking it right back
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: out of these accounts? And this is what he does,
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: is he investigates these sorts of odd transactions. So he calls,
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: I mean, he actually does what I would love to do.
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: So if podcasting doesn't work out, yeah, this is your
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: second option totally. He calls the people who are making
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: those deposits. Okay, and he is like, hey, and by
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: the way, I got this information from Naffi Davit.
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: Okay, we'll get into later.
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: He calls them and asks them, what's this money for?
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: Who are you sending it? To? Tell me about yourself.
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: It doesn't take long before Bill puts together that this
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: is likely a romance scam slash elder fraud.
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: Oh wow.
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the deposits are coming from four separate individuals. All
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: of them are elderly women who live out of state.
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: M Yeah.
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: So one's in Florida, one is in Utah, two of
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: them are in Texas. And they all tell Bill the
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: same thing. They're sending money to someone that they believe
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: they're in a romantic relationship with.
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: So he's able to track down the people sending the
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: money because bank records or whatever. And so he's calling
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: not just Christine echohawk, but also the four women sending
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: the money. Yeah, he hasn't called Christine yet. Okay, So
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: I see, I'm.
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: The people who are sending her money.
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: See. I confuse that I thought he had called her
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: and was like confronting her. Not yet, Okay. So he's
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: doing research. He's called all the people who are sending
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: the money.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, he's doing what I would do, So you know,
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: maybe he learned this all from us, that's right.
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: But he calls all the people that are sending the money,
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: sending Christine money, and gathers information and thinks, Okay, this
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: is a scam that's happening.
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: Do they know that they're in a relationship with Christine?
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: So they just believe they're in a romantic relationship with
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: someone they met online. Okay, men, they believe that the
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: person is a man, and the victims are all between
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: the ages of sixty four and seventy nine.
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: Wow.
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  Speaker 2: One woman says that she met a man online who
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: calls himself Edward Lotts. He told her he needed money
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: to unlock this two million dollar payment that would be
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: coming his way once he paid off a debt he owed,
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: and at that point he would have access to all
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: of his money and they would start their life together.
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: So all he needed was for her to help him
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: pay off the debt.
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: As a side thing, we should probably at some point
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: look into, like is that ever a real thing? Like?
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: Because that's how that's always come from this storyline. Of
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: I just need a little bit of money to like
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: unlock or be able to access this large amount of money.
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: Is that ever a scenario that's real?
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: Like that is a great question, because I've actually never
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: heard of that.
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: You've never heard of it being real.
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: I've never heard of it being real. Yeah, Like, in
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: what world would you need to pay money to get
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: an inheritance or a payment you're owed? I mean, maybe
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: it happens in like business transactions.
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure.
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  Speaker 2: I couldn't find the details of like what this Edward
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  Speaker 2: Lott's character said the debt was about, or said that
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: two million dollars was four.
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well we should look into it. If anyone listening
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: is like I know of a scenario, write us and
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: tell us. Yeah.
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: And so she believes him, and she sells her fully
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: paid off home and she sends him six hundred thousand dollars.
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Another woman says she was helping a man who she
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: believed to be a man named Jason Morris, and he
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: claimed he was stuck over seas and needed money for
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: fuel and supplies for an oil tanker that he had
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  Speaker 2: some involvement with, and she sent him more than one
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  Speaker 2: hundred thousand dollars in gift cards, wire transfers in cash.
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  Speaker 1: Wow yeah.
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  Speaker 2: A third victim says she was speaking with someone she'd
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: known years earlier that he called himself Glenn Goddard. He
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: told her he was sending a financial portfolio from Syria,
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: but he needed help with expenses. Like don't ask me
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: how that makes sense, I don't know, but something to
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  Speaker 2: do with like if you help me with these expenses,
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: another sort of I'm going to unlock this whole financial
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  Speaker 2: portfolio I will then be in possession.
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: Of in Syria. Wow yeah.
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: She sends him a quarter of a million dollars.
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: Oh.
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  Speaker 2: Fourth woman says she's helping again with an oil vessel
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  Speaker 2: that's returning to shore in Alaska. She sends forty thousand
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: dollars in gift cards, another one hundred and seventy thousand
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: dollars by wire. All of these transfers lead back to
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  Speaker 2: these accounts, and Christine joan Ecohawk. This is a lot
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: of money coming into a bank in Oklahoma, still Water,
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  Speaker 2: which is like not a huge place, yeah, Pawnee, which
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: is even smaller.
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: And then being transferred to Pawnee. It's yeah, this would
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: raise a red flag.
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I looked up the median income and Pawnee forty
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: two thousand dollars. Yeah, median household income. So it's a
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: ton of money. These accounts posed as multiple men, oil workers,
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: long lost college friends, all of them, you know, convincing
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: these elderly women to send money and gift cards or
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: in the case of the woman who sold her home.
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: So the scam needs to be stopped, and that means
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: sort of investigating it before Christine starts to understand that
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: it's being investigated, because you have to really like catch them.
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: We don't want to give it away. And then she
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: starts destroying evidence.
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so now all of her accounts are under scrutiny
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: at the bank, like they're being watched. And so I
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: think that means that when he called these victims on
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: the phone, he didn't fully tell them why. I'm guessing
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: because I didn't speak with him. But if I'm understanding
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: it correctly, he calls them well before he ever talks
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: to Christine to try to understand what's happening.
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: But he doesn't warn them, like, don't send more money.
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: I don't know that he doesn't, but I didn't see
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: that in the affidavit okay. So on December twenty sixth,
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: twenty twenty four, one of the victims attempts to transfer
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: one hundred and twenty thousand dollars into one of Christine's
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: accounts at mid First Make, but it's intercepted by the
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: fraud team and it never hits her account.
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: Christine had listed this account as belonging to Mourristine Ventures LLC.
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: Okay, the bank must.
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: Have alerted, you know, hey, your transfer isn't going through,
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: Like she gets some alert, or maybe she just hears
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: from the person that the money bounced back they couldn't
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: get it to her. I'm not totally sure, but when
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: she realizes that the funds have been intercepted, she immediately
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: tries to get the funds.
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: Christine does.
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, She's like, okay, well we got to fix this.
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: Does she go to the bank.
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: She sends an email, so she I believe she also
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: made phone calls, but I know for sure she sends
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: an email. And what she tries to explain to the bank,
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: and this email is that she does this by sending
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: a fake well we know now it's fake, an invoice
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: that she creates for Morristine Ventures, saying that this one
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: hundred and twenty thousand dollars is money she's owed for
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: a property purchase. Bill calls the person who sent her
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: the money, and that person backs up what Christine is saying.
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: That it's for a property purchase.
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's one hundred and twenty thousand dollars for
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: a property purchase. But it's not clear to me if
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: it was like Christine was purchasing the property and getting
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: the money for that. I think it was like this
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: person was sending money to technically buy a property from Christine.
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: But there's no details on the invoice about the property.
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: It's not how big is it? Where is it?
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no property details, it's just land and pawnee. It's
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: also like I have to wonder if when it didn't
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: go through, if there was some conversation between Christine or
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: whoever is kind of acting as this man and the
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: person who sent the money. Like the bank's giving me trouble,
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: so I need to say it's for this property, right?
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: And will you say that too? This is total conjecture. Yeah,
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: but I'm just like, yeah, what's going on there? Well,
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: you're totally right.
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: So to flash forward for a minute, we know now
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: that Christine then contacts his victim and says, here's what
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: you need to tell the bank. And so she's orchestrating this.
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: So what is her role here? Right? Is she the
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: man behind these accounts? Like?
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: What's going on?
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's reminding me of that audio book we both
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: listened to. There is no Ethan. So as the investigation progresses,
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: the victim tells the bank the real story that she
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: believed Christine to be a man named Edward, and Edward
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: told her to lie to the bank and make up
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: the story. It's only thanks to that bank that Christine
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: never got that money because this woman was fully convinced.
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: Was this a new victim?
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: No, this was one of those four elderly women, but
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: I don't know which one.
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: Okay. So in theory, she's already sent money previously. Yeah, okay,
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: she had already sent money out. Yeah.
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: So this is all taking place in December of twenty
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: twenty four, this one hundred and twenty thousand dollars being intercepted.
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: January twenty twenty five, Agent Justin Hoke at the Consumer
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: Protection Unit receives the referral and over the next couple
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: of months they put this investigation together and by March
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: they feel ready to speak with Christine, and surprisingly, at
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: least to me, she's like, Okay, yeah, I'll talk to you.
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: And so Oklahoma Attorney General Agent Richard Lashar sits down
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: with Christine at the Pawnee Police Department on March twenty sixth,
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: twenty twenty five.
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and Christine tells him she's a high school graduate,
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: has an associate's degree in business, and multiple nursing home
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: health care related certifications. And before the interview even really
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: gets going, Christine asks the question that is very telling.
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: She says, if the victims get paid back, will this
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: just all go away?
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: Wow?
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you can imagine the answer is no, yeah, it's
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: not going away. You know, I'm not a lawyer, but
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: I feel like that's an interesting strategy.
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: It did not work.
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: And then Christine comes out and tells this story that yes,
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: she has been receiving cash checks, wire transfers from people,
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: that she's played a role on deceiving people that believe
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: she's in an online relationship with them. But it's way
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: more confusing than that, because she's been doing this since
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: twenty twenty three. And this all gets really twisted because
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: Christine goes on to tell investigators that when this all started,
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: she was a middleman helping to deposit money from a
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: man that she believed she was in a romantic relationship with.
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: Who is the actual scammer?
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: What?
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So basically what she's saying is she believed that
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: she's in an online relationship with someone who is using
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: her to help obtain money from people. But he's the
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: person behind the accounts. Oh, she is the money mover.
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: Now did she just believe that she was in a
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: relationship with him in the beginning or does she still.
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: Unclear to me, but I think when they arrested her,
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: she still believed that.
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: Wow. So does that mean that the money is going
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: from Pawnee somewhere else?
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: Yes?
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: It does. Wow.
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: So turns out months earlier, well before the mid first
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: bank accounts and Bill's involvement, in January of twenty twenty four,
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: so a year before the Consumer Protection Unit gets involved
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: at all, local law enforcement had already spoken to Christine
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: ecohawk and they got a tip somehow about like money
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: being moved around, and they sit down and talk to her.
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: She tells investigators she's transferring money for a man that
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: she believes she's in a romantic relationship with so this
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: is the same story, and she tells them his name
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: is Maurice de Niro. Obviously de Niro money, oh right, So, yes,
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: Christine was scamming people, and she knew that she was
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: scamming people. I shouldn't say she knew outright, but so
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: she goes on to tell people that law enforcement and
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: the Consumer Protection Unit agents. Yes, I saw a lot
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: of red flags. This wasn't making sense to me either.
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: So she believes that she's in an online relationship with
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: Maurice de Niro, who was also named as an unidentified
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: suspect in the affidavit, So I think this is real.
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: So he's unidentified. Though he's unidentified. What did she think
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: that Maurice was doing with these other women these victims.
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: Unclear to me, but he was clearly the person quarterbacking
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: this whole thing. So Christine should not have done this.
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: She knew that this was not right. But she didn't
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: gain a lot from it either, which really shows you
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: the power of these romance scams, because although they end
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: up finding some cash and gift cards at her home,
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: all of the money that she transferred over the course
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: of even back in January twenty twenty four. She's been
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: doing this since twenty twenty three. She took it out
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: of those accounts, converted it to cryptocurrency, and sent it
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: to this person. Oh my god.
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: So she wasn't like which is not traceable, not.
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: Traceable, and so she was not gaining from this, like
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: investigators estimate that one point five million dollars has flowed
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: through these accounts, and she had not a lot. She
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: had some personal gain from it, but no, she wasn't
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: sitting on one point five million. This was all going
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: to this person who was scamming her. Okay, my mind
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: goes to he's this guy Maurice, whatever his real name is.
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: Obviously it's probably not Maurice. Damira is needing someone who
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: understands how to transfer money into crypto and send it
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: to him. Yeah, and I'm guessing he taught her how
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: to do that, yeah, or I don't know that. It's
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: a man, I guess, but this person.
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, it could be it could be anywhere. Yeah,
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: and so we don't even know where Maurice is because
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: it wasn't transferred to a bank in like New York
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: or something. He could be anywhere, it'd be in another country,
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: like we don't know. Yeah, Like their relationship to me
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: is in a way reminiscent of the Donna Nelson story
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: we did where this you know, grandmother in Australia believes
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: she's in this relationship. Well, that guy is never in
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: longne where she ends up going yeah. Yeah, And so
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: this Maurice DeNiro guy is not someone that they've identified,
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: if they do know who he is or who they are.
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: But from what I could find online, Christine spent most
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: of her life, if not all of it, in Oklahoma.
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: She was married, but her husband passed away in October
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: of twenty twenty one. She worked in home health care.
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: She was well liked in her community. She contributed to
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: local potlucks, spent time with family and friends. There were
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: Facebook posts from friends and family thanking her for gifts
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: that she had made them. No criminal history prior to
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: these financial crimes. But on April seventh, twenty twenty five,
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: she's arrested.
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: Wow. Yeah, I mean it's like I saw Facebook posts
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: of people in morning her husband and they all acknowledged
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: the loss for Christine too, and looking at the timeline, Okay,
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: so she lives in a small town. Her husband passes
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: away in twenty twenty one. By twenty twenty three, she's
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: moving money for this person that she's met online.
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: So probably there's been an established relationship there. So who
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: knows when she met this person online? How old is she?
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: She's fifty three when she's arrested five Yeah, and so,
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: I mean, we hear about this so much with online
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: romance scams, elder fraud, online dating. So I'm guessing she
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: got online, started dating someone who started building this relationship,
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: and then came up with some story that persuaded her
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: to do this, and she did do it. I mean,
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: she did do it. So she's fifty three years old.
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: She's arrested in charge with multiple counts related to laundering
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: criminal proceeds and using a computer to violate state law.
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: Christine pleads guilty in August of twenty twenty five to
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: all five charges and is sentenced to a combined total
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: of sixty two years in prison, with eight years to
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: serve and the balance of fifty four suspended. So I'm thinking, Okay,
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: they're recognizing she was in a bad.
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: Place, also victim, and she's just been manipulated.
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's like, wow, you know, it's a tricky
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: one because she knew what she was doing was wrong.
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: She told investigators over the course of their meetings that
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: she was fearing that she would be arrested, so she
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: knew she was breaking the law. She knew she was
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: deceiving people too. Yeah, I mean she was communicating with people.
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: I don't know if she was using a male voice
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: or if she was acting like sort of an associate
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: of this person they believed they were in a relationship with.
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: But she was in communication really these other victims.
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: Okay, that's surprising. Yeah.
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: It wasn't like Okay, money has hit your account, move
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: it here, right, She was also, I think in communication
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: with them.
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, well that feels like more of a significant
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: involvement to me than just never communicating with victims and
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: being told to transfer money. I could see in that
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: scenario how you could sort of deceive yourself into thinking, like,
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: I don't know what's going on, but maybe they're just
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: gifting him money or whatever. Delusional thinking you might be
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: able to conjure up. But when you're talking with these victims,
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: these women in their sixties and seventies who are sending
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: large amounts of money at that point, like you have
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: to stop and think what am I doing?
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah? I watched a YouTube video that someone had made.
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: It looked like, honestly, like kind of AI driven, but
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: they said in the video that an investigator said that
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: looking through her phone was like this isn't for a
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: beatim but you know, looked like many different personalities communicating.
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: I didn't see that, but you know, maybe they found
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: something I didn't. But I think that she's in the US.
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: I don't know where Maurice de Niro lives, but you know,
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: the whole like it, needing to be in crypto and
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: distancing yourself from a financial crime by doing it internationally
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: can protect you in a way.
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, did she ever speak with Maurice on the phone.
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: I couldn't mind much about their relationship because she pleaded guilty, right,
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: so it never went to trial where I assume those
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: things would have come out. But I did see in
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: Facebook posts where you know, this was the headline, certain
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: people would comment and be like, well, she was scammed too,
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: and you know she was so Yeah. She was sentenced
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: to a combined total of sixty two years, with eight
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: years to serve a balance of fifty four years suspended.
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: She was ordered to pay over six hundred and twenty
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: thousand dollars in restitution to the four victims.
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: How is she ever going to pay that? Exactly?
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: How five hundred dollars to a court fund and two
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: point fifty to the Victims of Crime Act Fund. So strangely,
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: this is like a little fact with the story that
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: I thought was interesting. Christine was represented by her legal defense.
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: She was represented by the Oklahoma Indigent Defense System because apparently,
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: you know, like we were talking about, she sent all
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: of them, or not all of the money, but you know,
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: the vast majority of it to this Maurice de Nero person.
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: So she actually didn't have any money, and this group
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: exists to represent people who don't have any money. And
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: so this person who had taken played a role, when
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: taking an important role, one point five million dollars from
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: people had to be represented by something that's set up
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: to help people who you know, cannot afford their own representation.
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: She was ordered to pay them two hundred and fifty
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: dollars for her defense. So, yeah, Americans lost over a
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: billion dollars to romance scams in twenty twenty two elder
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: fraud and romance scams, and you know, we know that
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: number has to be climbing with the rise of deep
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: fakes and a.
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: Think about what you could do with a billion dollars,
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: I know.
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: And it's also you know, these these scams start so small.
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: I need help with a plane ticket, I need you
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: help with this, and need help with that, And then
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: you know, you become sort of like bonded to someone
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: through what you think this trauma is that they're experiencing
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: you feel like a hero, and who doesn't want to
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: feel like a hero. Yeah, and yeah, that's what happened
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: here is I think this Maurice de Nero character kind
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: of did the leg work and needed Christine on the
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: ground in the US. I don't know this person wasn't
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: in the US, but I assume it behooved them wherever
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: they were to have someone who it was easy to
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: transfer money to, because transferring money internationally has to require
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: added steps.
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and you have to have a bank account with
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: a person's name and address associated with him. So pinning
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: this all on Christine and having her do that and
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: then transfer it to crypto, you know, just covers his
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: tracks or their tracks. Yeah, completely totally.
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: And I don't know that Christine wasn't invested in crypto
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: before meeting this person, but it seemed like she worked
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: some sort of like healthcare job, and I don't know,
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: it seems unlikely to me. So yeah, I thought her
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: sentence made sense. You know, I'm not an expert in sentencing,
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: but it's not okay what she did. She should have
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: listened to those her intuition, those red flags. But given
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: the timeline of losing her husband and yeah, everything else,
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: I think it makes sense that she had fifty four
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: years to see.
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think so too. The sentence makes sense, and
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: she's you know, will spend eight years in prison. But
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: I have to imagine if you're the faily members of
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: the victims, and you know, let's say your mother has
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: just sold her house that was paid off and sent
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: all of that money six hundred thousand dollars, you know,
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: to this scammer. It probably in some sense when you
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: hear okay, there's legal action being taken that might encourage you,
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: but there's no good outcome for the victims, because I mean,
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: does it make them feel better that this woman is
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: spending a year in prison?
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: Maybe, but it doesn't get you your money back.
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: No, there's no chance that they're going to get their
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: money back. Yeah, Christine's not gonna be able to give
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: them their money back, and it's gone, it's untraceable. So
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: it's just like it's such a lose lose situation for them.
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: It's horrible.
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: It's horrible, and I think the only thing that we
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: can do to protect against this is talk to our
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: friends and family who are dating online that might be
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: less aware of these kinds of scams, and it might
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: be kind of uncomfortable because it's like, I don't know.
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: One of these women was seventy nine, she's not on
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: some online dating site. Some of these women were just
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: on Facebook. Oh really, someone reaches out, hey, oh you know,
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: makes a connection. It's like, you don't think of those things. Well,
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: of course, you know. If that's somebody's grandmother, well, well
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: my grandmother's not dating online. But if you know someone
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: who's interacting with people online, the risk is I think
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: the same, unless they're aware of these scams, and especially
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: I think in those older generations, the shame and embarrassment.
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just hard to swallow. Sometimes people meet someone
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: online that like lives in another country or whatever, and
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: they're real person, and it's like great, really it's so rare. Yes,
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: online dating is great, but like meet the person in
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: person sooner than later. If there's any reason why you
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: can't that can't happen for more than like a couple
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: of weeks or something, it's just it's just probably not
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: a good idea.
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And if they come to you with this urgent
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: problem or financial need and you do want to help them,
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: maybe you could do some research on like nonprofits that
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: they could speak with or something or I don't know.
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: I mean, if you feel like doing that, but don't
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: send them money. You know, it's a huge red flag
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: and it preys on people who are, you know, embothetic
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: and lonely.
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: Looking for love. Yeah. Ough, it just breaks my heart.
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it makes me want to interview someone who works
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: at the Consumer Protection Unit.
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we'd love to speak with somebody. I wonder how
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: many cases like this they come across. I mean, this
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: one feels so blatant. Yeah, you're seeing one point five
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: million dollars being transferred in and out of this bank
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: quickly over the course of a year or something like.
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: It's surprising to me that it wasn't cut sooner actually
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: in some ways.
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: Well yeah, I mean, knowing that she spoke to law
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: enforcement in January twenty twenty four about some activity that
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: didn't look right, I have to wonder how much did
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: they know? Why Why wasn't it pushed further?
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it could have stopped there.
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: Also, it wasn't like enough to scare her to stop
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: doing this.
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: But then we see the whold these online relationships can
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: have on people. You know, like I keep I kept
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: thinking about Donna Nelson while I was working on this story,
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: and you know how excited she was about this relationship. Yeah,
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: and you know, these are intelligent people with important relationships
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: and whole careers and who doesn't want to connect with people?
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's so sad because we see this happening
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: to a lot of people in like the Boomer generation currently,
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: and people I know their parents are dating online. And
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: if you think that, like your parent is dating someone
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: online who might not be a real person, who might
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: have like ill intentions, that's a really tricky conversation to have.
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: And you know, there's so many tricky conversations to have.
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: Is like your parents' age about like agency and decision making.
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: And this is like yet another one that's become like
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: a common modern situation that people are dealing with. You know,
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: how do you ever tell your parent like you shouldn't
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: have a driver's license anymore? Like things like that are
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: really hard. And also, you know, telling someone that's excited
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: about someone that they've met online that this is a
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: scam and that that's probably not real. It's such a
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: tricky conversation to have.
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and how do you even know what's happening? A
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: lot of times these people, these scammers, they don't mention
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: our relationship to people. They're gonna judge us or get
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: between us or tell you not to talk to me.
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: And then if they do tell someone and that happens,
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: they're like, see I told you.
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, tricky. Yeah.
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: Well, on a lighter note, I have a recommendation.
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: Oh great.
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: So I was scrolling through my streaming platforms as one does,
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: and I came across an HBO show and it's called Neighbors.
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: I saw this pop up, but I haven't watched it. Okay, yeah,
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: I really liked the cover art looking through the windows.
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, follow the chaotic and complicated disputes of neighbors
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: and the extreme lengths they'll go to to defend what's theirs.
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: I watched episode one, which it was so bizarre, but
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: I actually loved it because it was like this super
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: zoomed in story on someone's life, Like we're not talking
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: about how these people, like one of the disputes is
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: happening in rural Montana, and we're not talking about how
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: did you guys get here to do what you're doing here,
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: because they both have very specific reasons for being on
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: this rural piece of property, Okay, and they're both interviewed
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: for the yeah, for the episode, fully on board with
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: the episode, and they're interesting characters and they're so similar
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: in certain ways, which I found interesting given that they're feuding.
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: But yeah, they both wanted to like leave city life
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: behind and live the super remote lifestyle. But there's a
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: dispute about a gate that is blocking entrance to land
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: that other people feel entitled to. But I thought it
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: was shot in sort of a strange way, but I
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: actually really enjoyed the episode overall. And then there was
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: another dispute in the episode about shoreline access on Santa
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: Rosa Beach in Florida. This is interesting to me. We
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: live in California. I live like fairly close to the beach.
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: The idea that beaches are private is so screwed up.
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: Screwed up like owning a beach, Like the beach should
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: be free to everyone. Everyone should be able to go
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: to the beach. And I understand that if you're a
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: property owner and your backyard is a busy beach, that
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: could inevitably mean you're dealing with people who are sometimes
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: using poor judgment or you know, disrespectful about your property.
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: But we can't say I own the beach. That's like
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: wild to me. Yeah, and so there's this neighbor dispute
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: about the beach and this sort of like anonymous defender. Anyway,
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: I thought it was interesting and I'm going to keep watching.
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: Do they try to resolve the disputes in the episode?
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: They tried, They trially fitted that, but they tried. Okay, Actually,
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: I'll say this, one person tried. From my perspective, yeah,
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: there's you know, two people in Montana, two people in Florida,
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: I would say one person tried.
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: Okay, Like, what is it like to produce that show?
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: Just imagine? Okay, I need neighbors who have disputes, and
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: think about all of the pitches that would come through
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: and all of the neighbors that are mad at each
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: other over like, yeah, it's like fences.
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: And you have to also be someone who's so sure
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: that you're right that you're going to agree to be interviewed,
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: because you have to think people are going to watch
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: this and decide who they think is right. I think
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: beaches should be accessible to the public and anyone who
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: wants to visit them. Yeah, the Gate feud, I kind
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: of saw both sides. One of the issues the guy
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: has with it is that the people who want access
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: to his property or horse owners and the horses are
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: causing issues for him. And I don't want someone else's
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: horses on my property either. That could be dangerous if
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: they get hurt. Whose fault is it?
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: So anyway, I'm going to keep watching.
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I wonder if it ever gets darker than that,
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: because you have to imagine there's a lot of pretty
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: sinister neighbor stories out there. We should try to find
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: one actually to do an episode. Yeah, it would be interesting.
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: I know multiple people actually in my life who have
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: had to leave their homes because of contentious relationships, Like
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: one of them was with their landlord actually, so that's different.
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: But someone who lived close by was sort of like
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: on the landlord's team and was doing things like writing
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: graffiti on their house and like blocking the driveway. And
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: another person that I know back in Oklahoma, they owned
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: their home and they ended up like selling it and
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: moving because their neighbor was I can't remember what d
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: happened to him, but they figured out that he was
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: doing things like pouring chemicals on their yard and like
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: kill their plants. Oh my gosh, like pretty weird stuff.
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: And they had a kid, so they were like, this
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: feels unsafe actually, like we don't know what this guy
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: is capable of. But it's wild to think that you
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: buy a house or you're renting a place or something
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: and you don't know who is living next door and
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: hopefully it's like good people. And I'm very much on
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: board with people like knowing their neighbors and creating community,
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: like we're way too isolated, but like what if you
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: live next door to someone who is just determined on
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: ruining your life? Oh I know.
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: I mean, I've luckily never had a bad neighbor experience.
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: But in my childhood house, the two neighbors in our
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: cold AzaC other than us, we're feuding about a tree
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: for like years, And I mean, to this day, I
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: think that tree is still there, and I'm like, like
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: someone wanted to chop it down either, Yeah, exactly. I
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: think that whether or not I thought I was right,
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: I would get so sick of fighting about it. I
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: would probably just let it go. But if it's a
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: safety thing or someone dumping chemicals in your yard, then
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: like absolutely not. But yeah, I had a situation in
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: my very first LA apartment. It was in Los Felis,
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: so if you're familiar with LA, it's East La, East
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: Hollywood area. It was one thousand dollars a month for
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: a one bedroom, one bathroom with underground parking, air conditioning.
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: And amazing, amazing And this was in non existent, non
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: existent today.
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: This is in twenty twelve, and I was so excited
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: about this apartment and I loved it, and I was
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: working as a personal assistant and it was just the
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: best feeling to have this place to myself. And the
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: landlords lived there with their two adult sons, and I
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: lived there for a year. It was kind of fine.
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: The landlord was very involved, but I just kind of
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: passed it off as like quirkiness. And I remember at
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: one point a guy I was dating came over and
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: the landlord came over and told me that he couldn't
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: spend the night.
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: Was like he has to pay rent or something.
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I was like, uh, I just pretended like I
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: didn't understand what he was saying because there was like
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: a language gap. But I was just like, excuse me,
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: Like what you're going to tell me this person can't
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: spend the night. I just played dumb, but I was
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: like very kind of freaked out because I'm like, why
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: do you even care?
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: What are you watching?
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah? No, he was always wandering the building. One time
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: I was walking through the hallway with a can of paint,
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: so I was going to paint one of the rooms,
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: and he chased me down, was like I don't want
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: you to paint, and I was like, I'm pretty sure
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: I'm allowed to paint, Like it's just you'll decide my
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: security deposit. I have a friend who calls her security
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: deposit a personality fee, and I love that.
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: It's so true.
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: It's so true, and like whoever gets that back? Seriously?
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: So weird stuff, but like whatever, I love the apartment.
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: It was close to where I work.
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, like him being hyper controlling over this apartment complex, yeah,
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: like so annoying.
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: Actually yeah, and then something bad happened where I had
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: just got a brand new MacBook. I worked for Patti
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: Stinger at the time. The Millionaire match.
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: My favorite point of your resume.
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: Yes, still the most important one. Shout out to Patty
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: if you're listening. And Patty bought me the most like
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: beautiful dresses at this boutique in Beverly Hills. She bought
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: me this new computer. Like she was a very generous boss.
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: I had so much fun working with her. And anyway,
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: the wait, did she buy be the computer?
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: I think she did. People don't know she's the Millionaire Matchmaker.
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so Patty had a Bravo show called The Millionaire Matchmaker.
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: I don't know if it's still on or not. She
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: was a matchmaker for millionaires, Yes, and I was her assistant.
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: And I first worked for.
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: Her in New York and then in LA And it
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: was such a crazy job, but I loved it and
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: I remember it fondly. For the first time in my life,
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: I had things that to me were like expensive and yes,
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: and I was like very excited about it. So anyway,
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: I'm carrying my like new MacBook into my apartment and
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: I passed my landlord's two sons, who were probably in
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: their forties, and they were like asking me about it,
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: and I didn't think that much of it. I was
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: just like, oh, yeah, I just got it whatever, and
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: I just went into my apartment. The next day, I
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: came home and I had been burglarized. Really, yeah, someone
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: came in everything.
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: I don't know, you know.
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: I went to my landlord and I said, I, you know,
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: I locked it when I left, and it was locked
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: when I got home, and everything is gone, and yeah,
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: of course that's horrible. I don't know if he could
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: have even figured it out. But I left after that.
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: It was a bad feeling.
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: I remember I had a Michael Core's watch that I
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: like saved up for.
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: It was gone.
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: I had this horse necklace. My friend Melissa got me.
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: It was, oh, did you make a police report? I
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: don't remember now. I don't think I even.
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: Thought of it back there.
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I was just so freaked out. I
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: just wanted to move.
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: But that's for me because that feels really scary. Someone
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: had access to your home, Yeah, and like took these things.
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: That's I think it was probably the landlord sense.
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: I think so too. I mean whoever got in used
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: to keep Yeah yeah, so sorry that sucks. No, I've recovered, recovered,
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: but it's good. Yeah, that's my landlord story. Kind of
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: neighbors you just never know. Well, that's a great recommendation.
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: I'll have to check it out. And Millionaire Matchmaker too.
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: If you haven't seen it yet, those older episodes, they're
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: probably available. Kattie, you know she gives that tough love.
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, she's always telling people to like Yeah, all right, cool.
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: Well, thanks so much for telling me that story today,
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: many stories, yeah today, Thanks for listening. We'll see you
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: next week.
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: If you have a story for us, we would love
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: to hear it. Our email is The Knife at exactly
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: rightmedia dot com, or you can follow us on Instagram
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: at the Knife Podcast or a Blue Sky at the
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: Knife Podcast.
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: This has been an Exactly Right production hosted and produced
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: by me Hannah Smith.
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: And me paysha Eny. Our producers are Tom Bryfogel and
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: Alexis Samarosi.
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: This episode was mixed by Tom Bryfogel.
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain.
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: Our theme music is by Birds in the Airport, artwork.
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: By Vanessa Lilac.
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: Executive produced by Karen Kilgareth Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer.