Latest / Roast the Post Podcast / Learning Experience Designer: Unsupervised Hiring, with Jonny Havey

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Learning Experience Designer: Unsupervised Hiring, with Jonny Havey · Roast the Post Podcast

• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: This week's job ad is a reminder that the goal of Roast
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: the Post isn't to tear employers apart,
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: it's to read between the lines,
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: because some postings are actually pretty good,
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: which raises an interesting question.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: What can you learn from a job ad that's well-written more than you might think?
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: How lucky are we that our special guest today is Jonny Havey,
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: founder of eLearning Partners and someone who spent his career figuring
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: out how to make learning less painful and a lot more effective.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: He works with organizations to build online learning experiences that people
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: actually want to complete.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: And he's spoken extensively about instructional design,
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: AI and modern learning, which means today he's exactly the person
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: we want sitting beside us
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: while we roast an eLearning job ad.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: Make sure to check out Johnny's podcast,
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: Learning Transformed, at elearningpartners.com.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: All right, welcome, Johnny.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome Johnny.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: it's so good to be here.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: I'm excited to roast this post.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, one of us.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: So I,
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: when we have a guest on, we do try to find a job ad that's like within their,
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: when we have a guest on, we do try to find a job ad that's like within their,
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: wheelhouse.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: ~ And I did look for job ads based out of Colorado.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: That's where you're joining us from today.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: But I couldn't find one that I felt was interesting enough to have
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: a good conversation about.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so instead,
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: I found one that's based in... surprise... Canada.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's where Paul and I
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: Nice.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: are both located.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: So apologies on that front,
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: but I think I found a pretty good one.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: And this was just a matter of really searching and searching and searching.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: We like to give a bit of a background about how we found these job ads.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: And it was just a matter of ~ spending a lot of time Googling until I found
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: one that I felt was appropriate for us.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: So with that being said, let me share with you the Roasty profile.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: So little bit of extra information as we go into it.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to remind the listeners that Paul and Jonny have not seen
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: the job ad ahead of time.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: So everything is going to be an absolute surprise,
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: which makes it even more fun.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: Job title,
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: "Learning Experience Designer".
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: The report-to title is unknown.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: The company size is 11 to 50 employees,
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: and the industry is, if you've been paying attention,
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: e-learning.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: What do they do?
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: A learning and development consultancy that helps
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: organizations design custom training programs,
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: e-learning, onboarding, learning experiences,
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: and training videos to improve employee performance and organizational capability.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: The head office location is Milton,
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: Ontario, Canada.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: The job location is remote, Canada.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: The geographical operating area,
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: I couldn't figure that out.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: I just put unknown and the job type is full time,
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: but it's a contract position.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: So that's one thing to note here is not a,
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: you know, permanent full time employment job.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: So that's the Roasty Profile.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_02: Is it a fixed term contract
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_02: or is it... like a month-to-month sort of thing?
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_02: Do they say like six months, twelve months just says contract?
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: I don't remember.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe we'll get to that.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: But my gut is telling me it doesn't say that.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's somewhere along the lines of like could lead
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: to permanent full-time employment in there.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: And again, we don't name and shame,
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: so we're not going to name the organization itself.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: But that's...
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_02: But I will
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_02: absolutely shame you, Jen, for not memorizing the whole damn thing.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't memorize it.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: And if this is
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: a full-time contract, are they looking to contract out another e-learning company
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: to fill that role?
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: Because we could do that.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: could be, could be.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: They may after they listen to this episode.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_02: There you go.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_02: If... you know, company,
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_02: if this doesn't work out for you,
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_02: call up Jonny.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_02: We'll put the link to his website in the show notes so
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_02: you can get in touch with him.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_02: it's common in Canada.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_02: It's kind of funny how we classify jobs.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_02: there are, you think about it from like a... from a kind of like
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_02: a legalese standpoint, there's a job with a determinate endpoint.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_02: so that's like your three-month contract,
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_02: your six-month contract, your 12-month contract.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_02: That's really common for maternity leaves and stuff.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_02: and then for for full-time employment, that just... it's a job,
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_02: that's referred to a lot of times as indeterminate end.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_02: So it's kind of like saying, you know,
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_02: your indeterminate endpoint is actually your your prize.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_02: That's the prize that you want to end,
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_02: but it's a terrible name for it.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_02: So a lot of job ads in Canada,
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_02: when they say this is a contract role,
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_02: all that they're saying is that you don't have an indeterminate end date.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_02: All the stuff in the middle of that.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_02: Who knows?
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_02: We'll just make it up.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_02: Mmm.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: Huh, okay.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: So this job ad is not very long and sometimes we do pull
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: out specific points to highlight,
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: but for something like this, I think it's okay to just read through it.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: And it's got a few different sections that we will go through
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: as well because sometimes those headings are super interesting as well.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: So it starts with...
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: at this company.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: I've removed the name so we're just going to call
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: it this company from here on in.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: take this company, we take learning seriously,
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: but ourselves not so much.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: We're a fully remote team of creative minds,
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: coffee enthusiasts, and... oh god...
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: GIF?
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: Is it GIF or JIF?
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's the debate.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_02: Is it GIF or JIF?
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: go with GIF, but JIF sounds cooler.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: I think I'm going to say JIF just because your name is Johnny and you're
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: our special guest, so I'm to name it after you.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: So we are JIF connoisseurs,
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: now that sounds wrong, but whatever.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: I'm in, I'm in it... who believe that work should be meaningful
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: and fun without the corporate grind.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: Our mission is to shake up how people teach and learn.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: We build innovative hands-on learning experiences that are inclusive,
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: engaging, and anything but boring.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: From custom simulations to technical training platforms,
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: our work helps
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: organizations actually change how people learn,
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: not just check boxes.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: As our client list grows,
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: we're looking for a seasoned learning experience designer who wants
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_00: to do meaningful hands-on work,
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: grow their craft, and escape the bureaucracy of traditional L&D roles.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to stop there.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: That's one section that I think ~ we've
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: got enough to unpack.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: So curious,
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: maybe we'll go with you, Paul,
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: first.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: Can you just share some of your thoughts?
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean I like the employer branding that they're putting into this so far.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_02: Like they're very... it's very clear that they're after a specific type
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_02: of person, like personality.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_02: They want a very specific type of person
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_02: to come into the organization,
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_02: probably because they have an established culture that they're building around
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_02: and they want to check off some of those compatibility boxes.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_02: So they're using this employer branding statement.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_02: It's a bit of a filtering point.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_02: early on, which I think is smart.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_02: I found it funny, well written.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_02: Like if it... if I were looking for a role and I was a learning designer,
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_02: this would appeal to me.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_02: I would gravitate towards it.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_02: particularly the GIF / JIF thing.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_02: Like that entertains me a lot,
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_02: even though I think we were probably putting more into it than they did
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_02: when they wrote this.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_02: I do wonder
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_02: ... this almost sounds like a like an agency,
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_02: a learning management design agency.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_02: That it feels so far like that.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_02: This doesn't have the kind of character that I would expect to
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_02: get from an in-house learning management team.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_02: or learning and development team.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_02: But... Jonny, you know, you're you're much more tied into this space than I am.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_02: What were your thoughts on the first kind of part
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_02: of the job description?
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: mean, they did a lot of the show,
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: not tell.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: Which is great because instead of saying we have a fun culture and all of this,
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_01: they're very descriptive about coffee and gifts.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: And then it goes into, we're not the typical agency or company.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: And from that standpoint,
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: love it.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: Really clear culture from a...
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: just the rest of it.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: Really does come off a little more generic to me,
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: but it's just because I've read so many of these over the years these different
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: postings like this and I think from that standpoint is right
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: on for what a learning experience designer Would be looking for like
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: it hits that perfectly...
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: I also agree that this is
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_01: an agency, this is an organization that is going to be contracted
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: out by most likely for corporate training,
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: for building out internal training programs for organizations.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: Because an e-learning really can break it into internal and external.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: Internal being creating e-learning programs that serve employees.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: And then external would be
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: the other side of business creating programs that are meant
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: to either educate customers on an organization's products
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: and services or to actually sell as a product to customers.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: So it sounds like from this part of the description that they're looking
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: for a learning experience designer that focuses on building programs,
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: corporate training programs for organizations to train employees.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: And they have a fun culture.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like those are the three things I get out
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: of this part of the description.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I agree with both takes.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: It is informative.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like in a small section,
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: they've packed a lot of information in there.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: A question I have for you, Jonny,
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: is what do you think they mean by escape the bureaucracy of traditional L&D roles?
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: What do they mean by that?
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: most likely they are positioning themselves as work for us instead
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: of an internal L&D team at a,
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: you know, an enterprise at an organization because I mean
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: in agency and then they already told us that 11 to 50 employees,
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: they're pretty small.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: So my guess is they probably are going to have,
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: they probably already have some
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: L&D, Learning Experience Designers, on staff and they're looking
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: to scale and bring more in or maybe they are focused on other things
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: in e-learning and they're bringing a specific L&D... Learning Experience Designer...
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: professional to kind of join the team.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: But that's my guess because if you go and you work internally at
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: an organization on like an L&D team or an HR team or you know
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: the culture and people team,
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: it's going to be, there's going be a lot more red tape and anything,
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_01: because I work with S&P 500 companies and support learning
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: and development departments.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I work with these internal professionals,
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: these professionals that are on these internal teams and their biggest qualm
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: is how slow everything happens.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: You have to get
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: literally half a dozen approvals to move anything forward on these teams versus
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: when you're working for an agency like this company that we're reading about right
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: now... you probably have a lot more freedom and it's probably gonna move
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: a lot faster It does depend on what kind of organizations this agency serves though
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: because this agency serves
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: Larger organizations and they're still going to run into the red tape...
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: they're just going to be a third party in that transaction instead
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: of directly having to deal with those restraints,
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: so yeah, anyway...
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_02: And it... you can flip that to the employee side of it too,
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_02: The candidate side, Jen.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_02: I tend to think of people who are in the labour market as either
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_02: big company people or small company people.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_02: You you don't find a lot of people who can easily go between small companies
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_02: and big companies, big companies and small companies.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_02: When you get to a certain point in your career,
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_02: you've figured yourself out and you figured out what environments
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_02: you really thrive in.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_02: And usually at that point it bifurcates and you're like,
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_02: yep, I want to be in the huge publicly traded companies because
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_02: a lot of predictability, it's super regimented,
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_02: there's structure, there's a ton of people,
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_02: that's what I need.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_02: Or I don't want to be in that because I need to build things.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_02: I need to be hands-on.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_02: And this part of the job that it's very clearly filtering
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_02: for that, right?
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_02: Like they're trying to appeal.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_02: And I think based on what Jonny said,
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_02: I think they're really trying to appeal to small company people.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_02: Who don't want to be in those rigid hierarchies.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I agree.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: I personally am a small company gal.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I prefer.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: But I was getting giddy,
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: Jonny, when you were giving your response,
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: because this is why we love having a guest on
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: who is an expert in this sector.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: Because you, the things that you were saying when I asked you that question
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: are going to start to show up in the job posting,
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: the one that you have not seen yet.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so I'm excited because you're actually like,
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, naming it's just we're just a bunch of like nerds geeking out about this shit.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's like so I could talk about this all day long.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: But it but it's so exciting because like,
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: you know what you're talking about,
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: and we're gonna see some of the things that you were just describing show
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: up later in the job.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm just really excited.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's so great when we have someone who's like,
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: not that we don't know what we're talking about,
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: but knows what they're talking about in this specific sector.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm going to carry on.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: that,
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that was just the opening.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: That was just the opening and there was a lot to unpack there.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: the next section explains,
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: well, the heading is why this role is different.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: And this is what I was trying about,
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: Jonny.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's what you were mentioning.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: Boutique autonomy.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: You won't be stuck managing red tape or sitting in endless stakeholder meetings.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: You'll design, build and ship real learning experiences.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: Flexible remote first lifestyle.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: Work anywhere in Canada and shape your day around your life.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: We operate with core collaboration hours of 10 a.m.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: to 3 p.m. eastern with flexibility outside that window.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: Meaningful portfolio worthy work.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: We've created custom learning solutions for organizations like the blah,
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: blah, blah.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: That's the name of a company I took out.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: Projects we actually want to show off.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: Mentorship and craft development.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: Work closely with senior leaders who care deeply about intentional learning design,
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: storytelling, and continuous improvement.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm going to stop there... just to talk about...
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean the the last sentence in that really stood out for me.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_02: what they're signalling is that they have an intentional design
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_02: of the structure inside the organization that is flatter.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_02: You know, they're saying you as the the LM, Learning Management Designer,
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_02: you as this person who is probably a grunt in this industry,
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_02: like they're doing the work,
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_02: they're chewing it out... you're gonna work very closely with senior leadership.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_02: So that right there kind of evokes, this is a flat structure,
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_02: not like it's a holocracy or anything silly like that from 20 years ago,
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_02: but this is a flat structure where there isn't a lot
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_02: of intermediary management layers in the organization.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_02: That's gonna reinforce that they're looking for small company people.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_02: Because small company people they gravitate to that,
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I think that's another positive signal in this that they know what
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_02: they're looking for and they're writing for that person.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_02: But what did you think, Jonny?
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_02: There's a little bit more nuance there to unpack,
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_02: I think.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean the coolest thing that stood out to me is they actually gave hours
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: in the description of when you're expected to be available,
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: which is I, I don't look at as many postings as you guys do.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: I've never seen this where it says like that specific of 10 a.m.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: to 3 p.m. eastern, you are looked at to be available and
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: and working and yeah, you can be remote really anywhere in Canada.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: You need to be available during this timeframe.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: And other than that, you can kind of customize it as you will.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: So that's really cool.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: think that's a good signal.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: It shows some boundaries related to,
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: hey, this is remote, but you probably need to be available for these five hours each
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: day, which is probably for meetings and other things.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: Cause this is probably a really agile company.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: Some of the other signals that this posting
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: is giving is that they move really quickly and I wouldn't be surprised
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_01: if they're running something like EOS or Agile or Lean
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: or something internally to move quickly.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: So because this specific timeframe that tells me that you probably have
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: a huddle of some sort every day on the team.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: you're interacting in a very collaborative environment,
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: even though it's remote.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's really cool that they set it up this way.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you can definitely imagine too that in those core hours of ten to five,
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_02: the the learning designer would be doing a lot of co-design,
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_02: Because they've signaled that senior leadership is is intimately involved
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_02: in these projects.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_02: so I can imagine this person sitting down,
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_02: you know, like 1 p.m. till 3 p.m. every day with different teams
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_02: and actually doing co-design on the experiences that they're creating.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's probably a lot of that time and that's why they set those fixed hours,
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_02: which is smart.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: What we're seeing in this job ad is something
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: I think is fascinating... is that you can say,
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: we're a collaborative environment.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: But like you said earlier, Jonny,
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: you're actually showing that by saying we have core hours.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so they're not just saying we collaborate,
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: but they're explaining to you.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: that that's actually a real practice within their organization.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not something we see very often.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like you hear of companies that have core working hours,
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: especially in remote environments where you're working with different time zones
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: sometimes, but explicitly in a job ad,
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: it's actually quite rare.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: We don't see it too,
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: too often.I like, too,
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: they're speaking to the culture by saying,
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: you know, there's mentorship, there's craft development,
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: they call it a craft, which I think is putting a lot of respect on
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: the industry and the work that goes with it.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things I despise is when people refer to someone's work as like,
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: and then, you know,
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: Jen went and did her magic and voila,
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: we have this.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, fuck you,
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: magic, magic.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like this is actual work.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: And so to name it that, to call it a craft,
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: I think it puts a lot of respect on that industry.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: far I really like it.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things I kind of wanted to foreshadow
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: is the line where they say,
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: you won't be stuck managing red tape or sitting in endless stakeholder meetings.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: I just want to plant that little seed there, because something comes
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: up down the road in the straw bed that makes me wonder how true that is.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: And this is where we run into things where sometimes things sound really good,
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: but in practice, is that actually going to be the reality?
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I am
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_02: I am absolutely right now, Jen,
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_02: picturing you wearing a Gandalf hat.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_02: Saying, let's move on, Mofo.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_02: That's gonna stick with me for at least the next
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_02: 15 or 20 minutes.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_02: So if I just start like smirking and giggling out of nowhere,
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_02: it's because I'm picturing you wearing a gandalf hat.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: I think we're also mixing a few different magical reference points,
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: but that's okay.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: Okay,
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: so then we go to what you'll bring.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: That's the next section.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm just gonna combine two because they're both pretty short.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: So what you'll bring, you'll thrive in this role if you bring a strong
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: mix of analytical expertise,
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: So you ask the right questions,
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: dig into complexity and make informed decisions.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: Exceptional communication and rapid writing.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: Whether chatting with teammates,
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: presenting to clients or quickly drafting course content,
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: you communicate clearly and efficiently.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: Creative problem solving.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: You think beyond templates and build engaging solutions.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: Collaboration energy.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: You enjoy building ideas with others and iterating together.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: Pardon me.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: Detail obsession.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: You catch the small things that make
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: the big picture work.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: So that's what you'll bring.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: Then we're going to go into what it's like
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: to work at this company.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: This is a full-time contract position with
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: the possibility of extension or permanent employment.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: We offer flexible scheduling, 7 a.m.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: to 7 p.m. full work window, fully remote work environment,
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: a supportive team culture, opportunities to grow your skills and expand your craft.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: So going to stop there.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: We covered what you'll bring and what it's like
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: to work at the company.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe Paul,
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: do you want to go first and share your thoughts?
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, there's a few, there's a few interesting things in there.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_02: overall, like in general,
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_02: they're talking a lot more about soft skills in that section than
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_02: a lot of companies do.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_02: They're talking about creative problem solving,
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_02: they're talking about collaborative... collaboration skills,
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_02: which...
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_02: I think that that fits into what they were talking about.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_02: I think that fits into your concept,
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_02: Jen, of collaborative range, pretty well.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_02: Like they're they're really evoking all of that.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_02: Which I take is a very positive sign.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_02: they talk about detail obsession.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_02: how they've kind of described this...
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I I don't know a lot about the work of a learning designer,
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_02: but if this was in like an experience design, for like an app kind
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_02: of category or for like a website kind of category,
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_02: they would be describing a user experience designer almost to a T.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_02: Like this person, it seems like they're going to be really focused on
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_02: the meta and the movement of the experience rather than actually doing like
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_02: sketching and doing like Photoshop stuff and doing like the visual graphic rendering
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_02: of what they're putting together.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_02: And that's interesting... because I would expect a small organization like
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_02: this to try and cram everything together.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_02: And be like, you need to dream up the things,
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_02: you need to do the user research,
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_02: and you need to kind of create the things.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_02: They're not doing that explicitly yet.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm kind of optimistic and hopeful that this one won't turn into
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_02: a dumpster fire, but we will see.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_02: the work window, 7 a.m. to 7 p.m.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_02: That kind of supports the core working hours thing and the remote thing.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_02: I assume that they mean 7 a.m.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_02: to 7 p.m. eastern time, because they talked about the core hours of 10
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_02: to 3 being in eastern time.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_02: So we can assume that even though
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_02: didn't say it out loud... that's kind of cool too,
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_02: because you're you're then saying,
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_02: like, hey, if I'm on the West Coast,
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_02: if I'm in Vancouver, then I can,
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_02: you know, start early but end early.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_02: Some people would dig that.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_02: Some people would love having that full-time
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_02: job wrap up at, you know, 3 p.m.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_02: local time and then they can go about their day.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_02: For a lot of people, that's dope.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, good for them for reinforcing that in this job posting.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_02: But what did you pick up?
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_02: from this, Jonny.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sure that you've got thoughts too,
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_02: and there's probably a lot of stuff that I missed that you will not.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, more so I have a lot of questions now and I'm really curious
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: if they're gonna get answered as we move further on or
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_01: not.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: This makes a lot of sense
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: for a larger organization hiring multiple learning
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: experience designers because kind of like what you said.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: it... there's
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: a lot of soft skills and
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: In my head, what's missing would be
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: who is dictating what we're creating in the first place.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: what I mean by that is, if this is an agency,
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: then they're probably getting hired out by most likely
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: a smaller, medium-sized org, just based on the fact that they said that they don't
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_01: deal with red tape very much and whatnot.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: So they're probably getting hired.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_01: by a smaller organization, but not too small because you really need a hundred,
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: a couple hundred employees or more in order to even hire someone
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: out externally like this agency to help you with building your
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: internal training program.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: But what I'm wondering is how much
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: client-facing time this individual is going to have?
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: Are they just going to be working internally with the team or are they going
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: to be interacting with the client themselves,
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: with the organization that they're building these training programs for?
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: So that's one question I have.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_01: based on this, it doesn't say anything about customer service skills.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: So my guess is the answer is they're not.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm curious because in my head,
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: Every time that we have consulted an organization,
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: whoever is building the, or consulting on the build,
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: there's a lot of client-facing time there.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of collaboration between clients and designer.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_01: The other thing I'm kind of reading between the lines
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_01: is there's probably at this organization,
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_01: there is someone
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: Dictating what's being built and it's being then passed down
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: or delegated to this person this learning experience designer to prom solve
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: and make it happen which makes a lot of sense,
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: but they also said they're a small company So I'm like curious why that
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: and maybe this learning experience designer
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: the opportunity for growth in the future is to actually look
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: at the business challenge that the client is having and then come
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: up with the education program,
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: the training program that actually helps solve that challenge.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: That is the main thing I'm saying because just in general
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: and e-learning and corporate training and L&D, what we find
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: and what I see, what
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: their potential clients run into is we can't just create a program
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_01: to create a program.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: There's a business result that the organization
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: is looking at getting to actually make the initiative fundable
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: for the organization.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: You can create a program and really hope that
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: it increases culture, improves culture and all of this,
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: but you're not gonna...
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: have long-term longevity of the actual training and development program unless
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: it actually solves a business decision.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm curious who on the team is responsible for identifying
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: or helping their customers identify what that is,
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: and then they're working with the learning experience designer to plug that gap.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: Or maybe this is what this role would grow into.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: This is interesting and why Paul and I have a hard time when people don't
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: say who the role reports into it because even just having that
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: one piece of information, what is the reporting structure for this role,
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: helps to answer those kinds of questions.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_00: Then you can start to kind of imagine and visualize what that reporting,
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: the full reporting structure looks like.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: But without knowing who this reports to,
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think this is a really huge question and it's a gap that a
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: lot of organizations have in their job ads.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: The rest of your questions, think that most of them will be answered when
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_00: we get to responsibilities.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah,
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: those are really good questions.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I think my thoughts on this section,
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_00: the what you'll bring and what it's like to work in the company.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: mean, having that window, that work window,
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: I think is another very explicit example of...
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: A commitment that they're making to someone and I really appreciate that
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: it's right there so you can say to yourself if I work here.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: I can expect you mentioned earlier boundaries.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: There are boundaries
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: and they're they're in black and white they're like codified boundary
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: so I really appreciate that.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: And then there was something, yeah,
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: the exceptional communication and rapid writing.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_00: And it even goes as far as to say whether chatting with teammates.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_00: I love that because I'm a very "get to the point" type person.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's a personality trait.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm interested in how they are going to assess that when they're interviewing.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like how is that going to be?
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: How are they going to gauge that?
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I guess
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: I guess it will be during the interview process and maybe how concise someone
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: can be.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_00: But I also think that it's narrowing their candidate pool because
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_00: if they have a bunch of people who are like quick communicators
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_00: and like rapid thinkers or writers or whatever,
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: they're limiting themselves with other forms of expression
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: and communication that can help to...
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: expand their collaborative range that can help to even scale their organization.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_00: Paul and I talk often about companies who look to,
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: they found something, it works well.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: They're like, how do we make more?
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_00: How do I clone myself?
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: And that's how they start to hire.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: That's how they build their organization.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: And they're really painting themselves into a corner when they do that.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: That's not how you scale.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: You start to hire for gaps that you have
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: at your organization and then start to plug in those gaps.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: So that's kind of what stood out to me.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_00: I thought that that was interesting.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_00: How do you assess for it?
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: Is it necessary that everyone in your organization behaves in that way
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: or is it specific to this role?
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: That's a question that I would have about kind of the culture of the organization.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_02: I really
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_02: wonder if like this organization is... it's like a... it's 11 to 50 people,
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_02: We're pretty sure it's an agency.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_02: This is... so this is a small agency.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_02: I wonder if they are kind of using that partner / account manager /
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_02: business developer model where you have a founder who has just a
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_02: ton of industry connections, or you know,
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_02: a co-founder, same sort of thing.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_02: You've got two people at the top who pretty much run and own the business.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_02: kind of handling business development,
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_02: but also working on managing those client relationships.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_02: So I wonder if there's that model where you know these people at the
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_02: top are getting the business, managing the relationships,
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_02: and working with the people inside to deploy the finished product,
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_02: the finished work.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_02: If that's the case,
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_02: quality's probably gonna be pretty good,
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_02: but those people are gonna be run ragged.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, that's a lot for a couple of people.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, we're speculating.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe the rest of the job ad will kind of unearth some signals,
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_02: but that's that's my guess for what this organization kind of looks like.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: It makes me wonder too, because when we say 11 to 50 is like a LinkedIn category,
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_00: like that... it's already categorized for you.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: So it could be 11, right?
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: Like it could be 11 people.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: But I also wonder if it's a founder and a bunch of contractors
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: or if they're legitimately that many employees.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: that's also, yeah, that's that's an interesting question,
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: Paul.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: Let's move on to responsibilities.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: There are only two more sections left,
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_00: but the responsibilities is actually like the biggest portion.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: Lots of bullet points here.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't want to leave any out because
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's not my industry.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if I'm leaving out something that's like super important.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm just going to go through them.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: Participate in client meetings to scope learning projects based on identified needs.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: Conduct training needs analysis to
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: Align learning programs with business goals.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_00: Define learning objectives, tasks,
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: and design structures.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: Conduct learner and task analyses and align them
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: to design strategies.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: Identify performance outcomes and delivery approaches with stakeholders and SMEs.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: And we always try to explain the acronyms in the show because
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_00: not everyone understands, but my understanding of SME in this context would
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: be subject matter experts.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_00: Simplify complex technical processes into clear
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_00: logical steps.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_00: Rapidly draft and create high volumes of instructional materials with accuracy
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: in brackets that's e-learning,
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_00: videos, tutorials, user guides,
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_00: job aids, scripts, storyboards and assessments.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: Design and develop blended and technology enabled learning solutions.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_00: Develop accurate and well structured technical documentation and job aids.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_00: Collaborate closely with the LXD team on project delivery.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_00: Jonny, what's "LXD"?
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_01: That would be Learning Experience Design Team.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_00: Contribute to innovative learning design decisions,
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: align learning programs with operational and business outcomes,
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_00: optimize use of learning technologies for scalability,
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_00: apply evaluation best practices to generate data-driven insights.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: Those are the responsibilities.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I will just say, my preference is when responsibilities are broken down by like,
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_00: with subheadings so that you can of like things in a little bit.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's just easier to digest.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_00: But those are the responsibilities.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_00: thoughts, maybe we go to Jonny first on this one and see what you think.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: Can you remind me the job title?
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_00: It was Learning Experience Designer,
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_00: which is now I know LXD.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_01: This is a lot.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for validating that because that was like,
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_02: We always love it when an expert comes on the show and we're like,
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_02: we think this is really out to lunch,
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_02: and they're like, Hmm, this is out to lunch,
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_02: and we're like, Okay, so we know what we're talking about too.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_01: The reason why I asked for you to remind me the job title is because
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_01: and this might just be an opinion because I don't
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think this is beyond the scope of the job title.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_01: that doesn't mean that there's not a lot of postings
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_01: out there that are, you know,
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_01: cookie cutter set up just like this.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_01: But when I think of a learning experience designer,
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_01: I think about creating the content itself.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_01: This also
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_01: talked about technology.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_01: So it sounds like specifically
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_01: was talking about kind of optimizing learning technology.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know what the exact point was,
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_01: but now we're talking about like an LMS or an LXP administrator.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_01: We're talking about a technology strategist or specialist.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_01: So what, what now I'm wondering is,
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_01: there specific
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_01: systems that this organization works with.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know if there's going to be a section on this job post that says
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_01: you need to know how to use and then dot,
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_01: dot, dot seven different systems.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_01: But that is typically out of scope
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_01: for a learning experience designer.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_01: They need to interact with the system,
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_01: but it talked about like scalability,
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_01: like being able to harness the system and
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_01: and leverage it for scalability.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_01: That's more of, I mean, that's what I do.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I can also do learning experience design,
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_01: but we're talking about leveraging technology as a tool
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_01: for... yet again,
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_01: we're talking from the agency's perspective.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_01: So actually consulting the organization on technology.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's also went into data, which is very important.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_01: I think that this is something that
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_01: they got right on is when we're actually creating experiences,
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_01: we're creating these programs.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_01: You have to close the loop from the standpoint of you create the program,
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_01: we get it in front of the learners,
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_01: we're assuming that the learners are employees of the agency's client,
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_01: and then we need to analyze that data,
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_01: the analytics of
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_01: how the employees are actually interacting with the program and then make changes.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_01: This, I feel like,
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_01: is probably the most important thing on this job listing.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_01: But yet again, this is not something a learning experience designer would typically
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_01: be responsible for if it was a larger company.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_01: Since this is a smaller company,
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_01: of course they're responsible for and they should be,
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_01: but I may change the job title.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_01: that case because my guess now after reading the responsibilities is this agency
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_01: is trying to pay a learning experience designer salary
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_01: for someone who is worth a lot more and is responsible for a lot more which
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_01: is what this company most likely needs they're trying to get away with,
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_01: "hey... we're gonna call it a learning experience designer, but they're actually gonna
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_01: do all these other things" and
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_01: That really comes across with a lot of the other pieces with this
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_01: responsibilities list as well.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_02: The first thing that stood out for me once once you
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_02: got through the bullet points,
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_02: Jen, there, was that... there's a blend of four functional areas in this job.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_02: And that's a lot.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_02: Like they're looking for you to be doing aspects
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_02: of research.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_02: They're looking for you to be doing aspects of strategy,
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_02: they're looking for you to be doing aspects of the analyst work,
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_02: you know, analyzing data and whatnot.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_02: and they're looking for you to design scalable architectures for information.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_02: for one person, that's a ton of stuff that's just squished together.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_02: and I think there's a bit of a mismatch between the job title and
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_02: and what those bullet points represent.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_02: And Jonny kind of said that out loud too.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_02: It's like... the job title is Learning Experience Designer,
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_02: but I'm feeling something else in the responsibilities.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_02: And it also said something in there where... you'll be coordinating with
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_02: the LXD team, which we now know as the the learning experience design team.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_02: So that suggests that there's a team of people who are working with
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_02: you to deliver and deploy content.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_02: what that structure is, I don't know.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_02: This person, it doesn't sound like is doing that,
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_02: which is good, because that would be way too much.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_02: This is already like a lot for this job,
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_02: but if they were creating content and deploying it too,
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_02: it'd be like.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_02: Mm, this better be a two million dollar a year job so you can hire five buds.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_00: This job ad is the reason why when we first started this show,
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_00: we were giving our rating at the end on the job ad itself.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_00: This is why we started giving an additional rating on job design because
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_00: the job ad so far is so good,
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_00: but the job design is,
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_00: it's, it's not sustainable.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's too many hats.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_00: And this again, makes us all, I think...
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_00: realize it's not a 50 person company,
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_00: it's closer to the 11 person company,
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_00: because with small companies, you wear a lot of hats.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_00: And this is the perfect example of that.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_00: So the whole point of the story behind the bullet points is that we
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_00: can start now painting a really good picture,
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_00: a very clear picture of this organization.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_00: And we can really see what is happening here.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_00: And it is trying to cram
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_00: a lot of duties into a title that really doesn't make sense here.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_00: So the one thing I also wanted to say,
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_00: when I planted that seed earlier,
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_00: I just scrolled back up to where it was.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_00: It talked about why this role is different.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_00: And it said that you wouldn't be stuck managing red tape or sitting
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_00: in endless stakeholder meetings,
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_00: but...
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_00: in the bullet points or the responsibilities,
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_00: like the fifth or sixth point in says that you're going
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_00: to identify performance outcomes,
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_00: delivery approaches with stakeholders and subject matter experts.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_00: like, which one of it is true?
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_00: Because how can you I guess I'm just wondering how they could even claim that
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_00: you won't be stuck seeing an endless stakeholder meetings,
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_00: but anyone who's met with stakeholders knows that the likelihood
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_00: of having one meeting and everything is like,
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_00: cool, good.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_00: is like next to impossible... so how do they reconcile that statement
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_00: when one of the responsibilities is sitting in those stakeholder meetings?
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I thought that was pretty interesting as well.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_02: just apply the "rapid writing" paintbrush and everything will solve itself.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_02: If you can "rapid writing" rapidly enough,
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_02: your stakeholders will fall in line in three minutes and you can move
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_02: on to your next thing.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_02: It's cool.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_00: and they won't even know what
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_00: happened.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_01: I was going to say, if you're quick enough at communicating,
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_01: then your meetings will be so short.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_01: You're going to have a ton of meetings,
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_01: but they're going to be so short that you won't be stuck in them.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_01: That's true.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_02: this also makes me think that this agency either is trying
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_02: to or has been punching above its weight class.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that maybe they're taking on projects that
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_02: are bigger than their capabilities.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_02: Like their, you know, their arms are a little bit too long for their mouth
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_02: or whatever that old saying is where it's like,
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_02: you just got a lot and it's more than you're capable of,
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_02: but you're trying to make it work.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_02: This is starting to sound a little bit like that with this job ad that
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_02: has the responsibilities of different functional areas squished together
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_02: in such a way.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm curious if this is
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_01: an optimistic hire ad.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_01: And what I mean by that is they don't have the work for it yet,
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_01: but they've probably served a handful of clients where they did this
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_01: for and they're like, well, we need to make sure that we have access
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_01: to a team member if we need it.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I say that because, and yet again,
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_01: this could be a difference between Canada and
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_01: U.S.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_01: But when I
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_01: see full-time contractor versus bringing
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_01: on a full-time employee, there's a bigger commitment with a full-time employee.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_01: You're bringing on a full-time employee to serve work that you've already brought
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_01: in.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_01: You kind of put a feeler out for a full-time contractor to have access
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_01: to them if you close the deal that you need them for and then you throw them
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_01: in the deep end.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_01: But the confusing thing to me about this responsibility section is what
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_01: you brought up, Jen, where it said you're going to be interacting with
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_01: the LXD team.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_01: Because until you brought that up,
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_01: I was really thinking that they probably only have one or two,
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_01: but there's a full team.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_01: So now I'm a little bit confused on
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_01: how big the company is.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_01: If you have a whole team, then why does this one have so many responsibilities?
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_01: just... the picture isn't clear anymore.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_00: But this is it.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_00: So job ads contradict themselves or they kind of show some
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_00: of their cards without maybe meaning to because Paul and I have run into this before
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_00: where it will say,
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_00: like work with a team.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_00: But then when we go and deep dive into
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_00: the organization, isn't a team.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_00: They're like, it's aspirational.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's like when we build that team.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_00: So it's almost like making this promise of like,
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_00: We don't have this yet, but when we do,
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_00: you'll be working with them because you just nailed it.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_00: Why would this, if there is an LXD team,
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_00: then what the hell are they doing?
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_00: Why am I doing all of this other sh*t?
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_00: So it is like, and I would say,
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_00: I wonder too, if maybe they plumped up their LinkedIn number,
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_00: employee count to make it seem a little bit.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_00: higher because it really is reading like it's a small,
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_00: small operation here.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_01: I mean how
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_01: it sounds to me almost is this might be to what Paul brought up earlier
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_01: is I feel like you might have a founder or a couple founders
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_01: who were doing all the things and now they're trying
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_01: to replace their responsibilities almost from
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_01: the standpoint of well I've been responsible for the actual
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_01: fulfillment of what we're selling we need someone to take that over so
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_01: I can focus on a couple other things in the business like it almost feels like that
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_01: of Founder or if there's two one of them was responsible for that
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_01: and they're looking at okay.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_01: How do we scale?
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_01: we got to take this off of our shoulders, throw this into a role so we
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_01: can focus on other things.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_01: It kind of feels like that even and then like
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_01: you said Jen, it's aspirational to have an L&D, to have an
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_01: LXD team.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_01: And that's probably what they'd even say in the interview is,
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_01: hey, so you're the first one we're bringing on right now,
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_01: but in X amount of time down the road,
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_01: you're going to be working with a handful of other team members.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_01: that, it almost feels like they're teeing that up in the interview.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that makes sense because you've got to think why a contractor?
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_00: And that... your story that you're sharing here,
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_00: to me, that makes the most sense.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_00: One or two people, they don't know yet whether or not they have like
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_00: a sustainable strategy or business plan to hire.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_00: an employee.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_00: And once you hire an employee,
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_00: especially in Canada, there are a lot of costs that come with it.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_00: So you're paying their benefits most of the time.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_00: If you have to let them go because business is slow,
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_00: you're looking at termination pay and severance.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_00: we are not, you know, in the U.S.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_00: there are a lot of at-will type conditions.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's not like that here.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so you're taking a smaller risk by hiring
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_00: a contractor than you are as
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_00: As you would be hiring employee,
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_00: however, there's like a liability issue because if this person is full time
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_00: and you are determining their work, and
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_00: hours to a certain extent, technically they are an employee.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_00: If you are their only source of income,
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_00: technically.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_00: they're an employee and if you're not paying taxes for them and
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_00: if you're not providing like all of these other things that come with being
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_00: an employee, then you can get into a lot of trouble for that.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_00: So they're playing a risky game here by hiring in this way in my opinion.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, particularly
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_02: where you are in BC.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_02: British Columbia has
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_02: amongst the strongest labour protection standards... in the province,
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_02: like Quebec does too, Ontario a little bit less,
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_02: but BC's got really strong protections for workers.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_02: the... and there are a couple of different pathways that this contractor thing could
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_02: go down, right?
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_02: Like we're not even we're not even fully cognizant of what kind
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_02: of a contractor is this.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_02: Are they looking for a contractor who's what
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_02: we would call a freelancer?
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_02: You know, a self-employed business person who is going to invoice you every month
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_02: or every two weeks or whatever it is.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_02: That's super common.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_02: Those are typically not protected by employment protections,
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_02: with the exception of what Jen talked about,
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_02: where it's like, hey, sole source of income,
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_02: we're going to go to court, we're going to go to mediation.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_02: The courts and the mediators will very often side on the the side
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_02: of the person saying, "no, actually I'm an employee and I'm entitled
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_02: to these benefits."
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_02: They often side that way.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_02: So there's like that freelancer thing where you're billing as a business.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_02: Then there's also like, hey, am I working hourly as an employee with
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_02: an indeterminate, unfixed schedule?
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_02: Like maybe some weeks it'll be 10 hours,
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_02: maybe some weeks it'll be 30 hours.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_02: You never know.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_02: Those arrangements exist.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_02: or is it a contractor in the sense of,
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_02: hey, we're gonna go month to month.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_02: You've got a one month contract that extends and flips over every month unless
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_02: we say otherwise we mutually agree to terminate or there are other clauses,
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_02: blah, blah, blah.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_02: What does contractor mean?
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_02: We don't know.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_02: We don't know.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things that they've done here actually,
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_00: they've shot themselves in the foot a little bit because I think
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_00: by having those hours stated,
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_00: they are actually determining the workers hours,
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_00: which you're not supposed to do with contractors.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_02: You're right.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_00: I like it for an employee,
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_00: but as a contractor, the contractor could say,
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_00: like, they've determined these are my working hours.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_00: And that's one strike against them.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's like a three,
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_00: or four point test that if you answer yes to like however many numbers
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_00: of these questions, then you are essentially an employee and they owe you
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_00: a lot of things as a result.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_00: So actually,
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_00: the first thing I would advise this organization is to either get rid
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_00: of the hours on the job ad or make this an employment position,
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_00: a full-time employment position.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_00: The last section we have is qualifications.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_00: So... qualifications, and this is just as meaty as the responsibilities section.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_00: lot of bullet points here.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_00: Bachelor's degree in education,
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_00: instructional design, or equivalent experience.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_00: Five plus years of experience as a learning experience designer.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_00: Five plus years working with modern learning technologies in corporate environments.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_00: Five plus years applying adult learning principles.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_00: Five plus years of experience in articulate storyline.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_00: Exceptional writing skills with proven ability to synthesize complex information
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_00: into clear, concise contact quickly.
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_00: Knowledge of instructional systems design,
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_00: rapid drafting and development methodologies,
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_00: adult learning theory, research methods and assessment tools.
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_00: Experience
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_00: with technical software content is a strong asset,
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_00: ability to thrive in a fast paced self-directed environment,
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_00: strong project management and organizational skills,
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_00: excellent problem solving and interpersonal abilities,
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_00: experience leading or coordinating projects,
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_00: and CPLP or similar certification is a plus,
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_00: and that is certified professional in learning and performance.
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_00: And scene.
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_00: Those are the qualifications.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_00: So.
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_00: Hot takes on that.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_02: there's a lot of sh*t that's all thrown in the pot there.
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, there's there's stuff in that section that I think belonged
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_02: in other sections.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_02: they're mixing soft skills and actual qualifications
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_02: and certifications together in a way that's really... it's really weird.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_02: It's really weird to me, I would say.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_02: Jonny, what is articulate storyline?
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_02: Is that an industry term?
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_02: Or are they trying to describe something?
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't quite get what they meant when they said experience in articulate
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_02: storyline.
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so that's probably the best qualification bullet point actually,
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_01: because that's the standard tool used in learning design.
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_01: Storyline is probably one of the best tools out there actually but when
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_01: we look at the rest of this it sounds like They have to be a project manager
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_01: now which I had no idea until now that I was signing up for
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_01: a project management role and that and that's a completely different skill
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_01: set like typically a learning experience designer would work with
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_01: a project manager and this just comes back to what we talked about before once
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_01: we got into responsibilities is
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like what they did with this job description,
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_01: and maybe this is what a lot of companies do,
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_01: I've probably done this, like guilty,
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_01: but it started very narrow and we're just getting wider and wider
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_01: the lower and lower we go on this description.
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, project management, I think it's extremely important.
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's probably the most important part of learning and development.
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_01: But when you're looking at getting someone that has five plus years
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_01: of experience in storyline and three or four other things in qualifications
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_01: and you want them to project manage,
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_01: I just don't think those things are going to line up.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like I'm much more of a project manager.
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, founders of companies,
• 56:25
  SPEAKER_01: you should be a project... like you have to be a project manager because when
• 56:29
  SPEAKER_01: you start the company, you're managing everything.
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_01: So yet again, it comes back to,
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_01: I do think that
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_01: They might be trying to offload responsibilities that the founder
• 56:39
  SPEAKER_01: or founders had into this role versus hiring a learning experience designer who's
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_01: great at articulate or storyline.
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_01: And a couple of these other qualifications make sense too,
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_01: where it says, I mean.
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_01: I'm glad when it was first saying bachelor's degree in education,
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, you don't need a bachelor's degree in education to do this.
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_01: But then it said,
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_01: equivalent experience so so that's interesting because when I first heard okay
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_01: bachelor's degree in education or instructional design I don't know.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think... like, the best Instructional designers I know did not study
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_01: it.
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_01: They just are very good at storytelling and I feel like it's
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_01: not something you can really study It's something that you're just innately good at
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_01: When it says equivalent experience,
• 57:31
  SPEAKER_01: that's kind of vague, unless they're defining that below by saying five plus years
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_01: of experience in the next four items.
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_02: I for a second there, Jen, when you were reading out the bullet points,
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_02: in my brain I was like, she's gonna say PMP.
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_02: They want a PMP, which would be nuts.
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_02: It would be insane for someone like this to need a PMP designation.
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm sure they would like that,
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_00: but that wasn't in there.
• 57:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean it's... like Jonny kind of said,
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_02: there's a lot put together in there that
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_02: I'm more confused now than I
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_02: was halfway through the job ad... of what they actually want and what they actually
• 58:07
  SPEAKER_02: need.
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_02: Like the the the story is getting hazier,
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_02: which I find kind of challenging.
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I wonder if that's going to also reduce their pool
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_02: of candidates because people are going to be like,
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_02: I've been working as a learning instructional designer,
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_02: learning experience designer.
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_02: and I can do like 50% of this,
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_02: 60% of this.
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yep, hands down, cool,
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_02: done.
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_02: But the rest of it, not my bag.
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_02: Am I going to apply?
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe not.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_02: Especially if there are dozen,
• 58:39
  SPEAKER_02: two dozen job ads that I find in kind of the same place on LinkedIn
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_02: or Indeed or whatever... that are more closely matched up to what I do.
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_02: Like, am I going to bother with this one?
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 58:50
  SPEAKER_02: This one, like I am not a
• 58:53
  SPEAKER_02: experienced designer by any means.
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_02: Like I've done content generation for knowledge portals and I've done that type
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_02: of work before.
• 58:59
  SPEAKER_02: I've project managed stuff like this before.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_02: but this this this seems like a hot mess.
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_02: Like I would really struggle with this as a candidate.
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_00: So my brief thoughts on the qualifications aspect is when
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_00: you see a job like this that has a lot of responsibilities,
• 59:18
  SPEAKER_00: again, you have to wear a lot of hats,
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_00: you're doing an aspect of BD and project management and this and that.
• 59:24
  SPEAKER_00: to me, that's always going to be someone who's a bit more junior.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_00: because they're gonna be more willing to put up with that earlier
• 59:32
  SPEAKER_00: on in their career.
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_00: Someone a bit more seasoned looks at
• 59:35
  SPEAKER_00: all those responsibilities and they see exactly what we see and they're like,
• 59:39
  SPEAKER_00: f*ck that, I'm not doing this.
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like I paid my dues, I'm not doing that anymore.
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_00: Or someone who maybe is really like desperate for a job.
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so you might have someone who's more experienced.
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_00: but they're in the job market,
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_00: they need something and maybe they're not values aligned.
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_00: And that's a problem too, right?
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_00: Or you have someone who's a little bit more junior and willing to do
• 1:00:04
  SPEAKER_00: all of those things, but then you look at the qualifications and you're like,
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_00: there's a mismatch.
• 1:00:09
  SPEAKER_00: Are you actually gonna find a more junior person
• 1:00:12
  SPEAKER_00: who has project management experience,
• 1:00:14
  SPEAKER_00: who has five plus years in all these categories?
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_00: Probably not.
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_00: So something's gotta give.
• 1:00:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like you look at a job ad like this and you're like,
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_00: what is the, what are you willing to trade off?
• 1:00:25
  SPEAKER_00: That's another thing I would advise the organization with.
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_00: What are you willing to trade off?
• 1:00:29
  SPEAKER_00: You can't have someone with all of this experience who's also willing to
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_00: do all of these things.
• 1:00:34
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a mismatch.
• 1:00:35
  SPEAKER_00: There's definitely a mismatch there.
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_00: And that's really my, my two cents on the qualifications.
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_00: That's the job ad.
• 1:00:44
  SPEAKER_00: It just ends.
• 1:00:46
  SPEAKER_00: So there is, there is nothing further.
• 1:00:48
  SPEAKER_00: And
• 1:00:49
  SPEAKER_00: Unfortunately, there is no listed salary.
• 1:00:54
  SPEAKER_00: So because we can't...
• 1:00:57
  SPEAKER_00: guess the salary and know whether or not we're right.
• 1:00:59
  SPEAKER_00: I still think it's worth just like,
• 1:01:01
  SPEAKER_00: know, what price tag would you both put on a role like this?
• 1:01:05
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think a role like this should be paid?
• 1:01:09
  SPEAKER_00: That's my question.
• 1:01:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, what do you what do you think,
• 1:01:11
  SPEAKER_02: Jonny?
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_02: Like what would what would you pay for a learning experience designer
• 1:01:17
  SPEAKER_02: in a fairly sizable market in the US,
• 1:01:20
  SPEAKER_02: in US dollars?
• 1:01:20
  SPEAKER_02: What would that look like down there?
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_01: So I have two answers... one for what to pay a learning experience designer
• 1:01:28
  SPEAKER_01: and second answer is what we should pay this role
• 1:01:34
  SPEAKER_01: So for a learning experience designer in let's call
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_01: it California or Seattle or New York is gonna
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_01: be the highest paid markets.
• 1:01:47
  SPEAKER_01: You're probably looking at USD $100,000
• 1:01:49
  SPEAKER_01: to USD$ 120,000
• 1:01:51
  SPEAKER_01: a year.
• 1:01:51
  SPEAKER_01: In Colorado, would be more like USD $80,000
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_01: USD $70,000 or $80,000 a year.
• 1:01:56
  SPEAKER_01: So that'd be a learning experience designer.
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_01: Now, if we're looking at what this role is,
• 1:02:05
  SPEAKER_01: which is more of a learning experience strategist
• 1:02:10
  SPEAKER_01: or an e-learning strategist or I don't even know what
• 1:02:16
  SPEAKER_01: I'd call this role because it's pretty high level.
• 1:02:20
  SPEAKER_01: you're probably looking at it closer to USD $200,000 in those markets.
• 1:02:27
  SPEAKER_01: I that would be the only thing that...
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 1:02:31
  SPEAKER_01: I'll tell you this, my company when we work with organizations will
• 1:02:34
  SPEAKER_01: do all the things listed here,
• 1:02:36
  SPEAKER_01: and we charge a quarter a million, plus do a revenue share.
• 1:02:41
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're looking to hire that out,
• 1:02:44
  SPEAKER_01: that's probably about what you're looking at.
• 1:02:47
  SPEAKER_02: The responsibilities that they listed out and kind of all
• 1:02:51
  SPEAKER_02: the stuff that they've put in this job out.
• 1:02:53
  SPEAKER_02: Like I would value this job as written... somewhere around CAD $150,000.
• 1:02:58
  SPEAKER_02: So call it a range of like CAD $140,000 to CAD $160,000 sort of thing.
• 1:03:04
  SPEAKER_02: So that'd be USD $110,000,
• 1:03:08
  SPEAKER_02: give or take, kind of in that ballpark.
• 1:03:10
  SPEAKER_02: That'd be my guess if I was guessing on a number that they put down,
• 1:03:13
  SPEAKER_02: but they didn't, so they broke the law.
• 1:03:15
  SPEAKER_02: Shame on them.
• 1:03:16
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's a contract... so...
• 1:03:20
  SPEAKER_02: so maybe they didn't.
• 1:03:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, if if it's not a directly employed position,
• 1:03:25
  SPEAKER_02: you don't have to list the salary range in Ontario.
• 1:03:28
  SPEAKER_02: Jonny, we... Jen and I talk about this a lot,
• 1:03:30
  SPEAKER_02: and for the folks at home, because pay transparency laws are becoming
• 1:03:36
  SPEAKER_02: a thing in Canada for the first time.
• 1:03:39
  SPEAKER_02: Ontario...
• 1:03:40
  SPEAKER_02: the largest province in the country.
• 1:03:42
  SPEAKER_02: its pay transparency laws started this January.
• 1:03:46
  SPEAKER_02: So companies are still... they're figuring their stuff out.
• 1:03:49
  SPEAKER_02: Like a lot of companies are starting to put those salary ranges on their
• 1:03:52
  SPEAKER_02: job ads and they're starting to figure out how do we actually comply with this
• 1:03:55
  SPEAKER_02: legislation.
• 1:03:57
  SPEAKER_02: Six months in, seven months in,
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_02: it shocks me that companies aren't.
• 1:04:01
  SPEAKER_02: Because it is not difficult to comply with
• 1:04:05
  SPEAKER_02: the rules as written.
• 1:04:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't say that a lot about government stuff.
• 1:04:09
  SPEAKER_02: Governments make things too darn complicated.
• 1:04:12
  SPEAKER_02: But this isn't that.
• 1:04:13
  SPEAKER_02: It's actually very easy to comply.
• 1:04:15
  SPEAKER_02: So it blows my mind when companies don't.
• 1:04:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I will say that based on what my view of the world and how people
• 1:04:22
  SPEAKER_00: pay for things like this and kind of because they've written it the
• 1:04:26
  SPEAKER_00: way that they have and their expectations,
• 1:04:29
  SPEAKER_00: I would think that they would probably be like,
• 1:04:31
  SPEAKER_00: this is a $65 an hour role, something like that,
• 1:04:36
  SPEAKER_00: know, like, yeah, that's my thought on it.
• 1:04:50
  SPEAKER_00: so we are back from intermission and we are ready to give some ratings.
• 1:04:56
  SPEAKER_00: So as a reminder, we do two ratings.
• 1:04:59
  SPEAKER_00: Each one is for the job ad itself,
• 1:05:01
  SPEAKER_00: how it was written, the story that it tells,
• 1:05:04
  SPEAKER_00: whether or not it's compliant legally.
• 1:05:07
  SPEAKER_00: And then the second rating is for the job design.
• 1:05:11
  SPEAKER_00: So basically the way Paul describes it is whether or not
• 1:05:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's a hot mess, right?
• 1:05:19
  SPEAKER_00: Is it sustainable?
• 1:05:20
  SPEAKER_00: Does it make sense?
• 1:05:23
  SPEAKER_00: And all of the other things that come with it.
• 1:05:26
  SPEAKER_00: maybe our, actually, I'm gonna ask who wants to go first?
• 1:05:31
  SPEAKER_00: Who's actually itching to give their rating first?
• 1:05:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'll go first so I'm not swayed.
• 1:05:41
  SPEAKER_01: Bold, I love it.
• 1:05:44
  SPEAKER_01: so for the job posting itself,
• 1:05:48
  SPEAKER_01: it started out real good.
• 1:05:50
  SPEAKER_01: And as we kind of
• 1:05:53
  SPEAKER_01: got deeper into it, there's a lot
• 1:05:56
  SPEAKER_01: of contradictions and my biggest takeaway from it is it becomes
• 1:06:03
  SPEAKER_01: a very selfish ad.
• 1:06:06
  SPEAKER_01: There's not much,
• 1:06:07
  SPEAKER_01: there's not much there for what I actually get as the new team member.
• 1:06:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's very much about the company and for these reasons,
• 1:06:17
  SPEAKER_01: at best I can give it a three.
• 1:06:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm probably being nice.
• 1:06:20
  SPEAKER_00: That's for the job ad portion.
• 1:06:23
  SPEAKER_01: for the ad.
• 1:06:23
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, what about the, I mean,
• 1:06:26
  SPEAKER_00: say more.
• 1:06:28
  SPEAKER_01: For the job design,
• 1:06:30
  SPEAKER_01: I actually really like the design itself.
• 1:06:34
  SPEAKER_01: The challenge is there's a mismatch between what they're actually describing
• 1:06:39
  SPEAKER_01: for the job role and what they're calling it.
• 1:06:43
  SPEAKER_01: So if the title of the job was adjusted to something like Fractional
• 1:06:49
  SPEAKER_01: CLO, which would be acting as a outsource Chief of Learning Officer,
• 1:06:57
  SPEAKER_01: And we don't know what the pay is,
• 1:06:58
  SPEAKER_01: but if the pay was in the USD $175K or more,
• 1:07:04
  SPEAKER_01: then yeah, I'd give this a seven or eight.
• 1:07:07
  SPEAKER_01: But since the job title is Learning Experience Designer,
• 1:07:11
  SPEAKER_01: the pay is not expressed.
• 1:07:15
  SPEAKER_01: This job is a hot mess.
• 1:07:17
  SPEAKER_01: which means I think I gotta give it a one.
• 1:07:20
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely fair.
• 1:07:21
  SPEAKER_00: What about you,
• 1:07:22
  SPEAKER_00: Paul?
• 1:07:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I was I was definitely in the same ballpark with this as Jonny.
• 1:07:28
  SPEAKER_02: The the job at itself, and man,
• 1:07:31
  SPEAKER_02: it started out so great.
• 1:07:33
  SPEAKER_02: It started out really,
• 1:07:35
  SPEAKER_02: really good.
• 1:07:36
  SPEAKER_02: You know, companies that... companies that pay attention
• 1:07:39
  SPEAKER_02: to their employer branding, like these folks did,
• 1:07:43
  SPEAKER_02: usually I'm able to rate them really,
• 1:07:45
  SPEAKER_02: really well.
• 1:07:46
  SPEAKER_02: But like you said kind of earlier on in the show,
• 1:07:48
  SPEAKER_02: Jen, like
• 1:07:49
  SPEAKER_02: They were writing, writing, writing,
• 1:07:50
  SPEAKER_02: it was all good.
• 1:07:51
  SPEAKER_02: They were putting effort into it.
• 1:07:52
  SPEAKER_02: They were creative and then they stopped and they were like,
• 1:07:55
  SPEAKER_02: Alright, push the button, we're done.
• 1:08:00
  SPEAKER_02: ... and that bothered me.
• 1:08:02
  SPEAKER_02: Like down in the qualifications section,
• 1:08:04
  SPEAKER_02: there were things that just didn't make any sense
• 1:08:08
  SPEAKER_02: to be in there, like ability to thrive in a fast-paced,
• 1:08:12
  SPEAKER_02: self-directed environment.
• 1:08:13
  SPEAKER_02: It's not a qualification,
• 1:08:14
  SPEAKER_02: don't put it in there.
• 1:08:15
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 1:08:16
  SPEAKER_02: you really needed to write
• 1:08:18
  SPEAKER_02: Another section in this job ad that spoke to the characteristics
• 1:08:22
  SPEAKER_02: of who they're looking for.
• 1:08:23
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 1:08:24
  SPEAKER_02: a lot of companies when they do this,
• 1:08:25
  SPEAKER_02: they'll have a section that says something to the effect of we're looking
• 1:08:29
  SPEAKER_02: for you too... we're looking for a... you are a... the perfect fit will...
• 1:08:36
  SPEAKER_02: They describe those characteristics of the person and then list all that,
• 1:08:40
  SPEAKER_02: you know, off.
• 1:08:41
  SPEAKER_02: But they jammed it into qualifications.
• 1:08:42
  SPEAKER_02: They're not qualifications.
• 1:08:44
  SPEAKER_02: There were really only
• 1:08:45
  SPEAKER_02: I'd say five, maybe six things in here that were qualifications.
• 1:08:50
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I would have written this as qualifications,
• 1:08:52
  SPEAKER_02: one section, experience, another section,
• 1:08:55
  SPEAKER_02: personal characteristics, another section.
• 1:08:57
  SPEAKER_02: Branded differently if you want.
• 1:08:58
  SPEAKER_02: I would have broken it out that way.
• 1:09:00
  SPEAKER_02: This is jumbled.
• 1:09:01
  SPEAKER_02: It's confusing... the way that it's written
• 1:09:03
  SPEAKER_02: doesn't tell the job seeker a lot about the organization or what they're getting,
• 1:09:07
  SPEAKER_02: to Jonny's point.
• 1:09:08
  SPEAKER_02: for me, this is a four.
• 1:09:10
  SPEAKER_02: This is a four, and I feel like I'm being generous.
• 1:09:11
  SPEAKER_02: Like I think maybe I should have scored it a little bit lower,
• 1:09:14
  SPEAKER_02: but I'd call it a four.
• 1:09:15
  SPEAKER_02: I would not apply for this if I was a learning designer.
• 1:09:18
  SPEAKER_02: The role design itself, definitely with Jonny,
• 1:09:23
  SPEAKER_02: this is a dumpster fire, it's a hot mess.
• 1:09:26
  SPEAKER_02: I just gave it more points.
• 1:09:28
  SPEAKER_02: I gave it more points.
• 1:09:28
  SPEAKER_02: I would give this a three out of ten for the job design.
• 1:09:32
  SPEAKER_02: big problems that I found with this.
• 1:09:35
  SPEAKER_02: There are too many functional areas or responsibilities or things that
• 1:09:40
  SPEAKER_02: you will own.
• 1:09:41
  SPEAKER_02: Put into one design for a role that is not a leadership or a management
• 1:09:47
  SPEAKER_02: or a very senior position.
• 1:09:49
  SPEAKER_02: This is this is really meant to be a grinder.
• 1:09:51
  SPEAKER_02: This is a worker bee.
• 1:09:53
  SPEAKER_02: This is someone who is going to go out,
• 1:09:55
  SPEAKER_02: do the work.
• 1:09:56
  SPEAKER_02: They're part of a team.
• 1:09:57
  SPEAKER_02: They're not managing relationships.
• 1:09:59
  SPEAKER_02: They're like, they're getting the stuff done.
• 1:10:01
  SPEAKER_02: and they're also a project manager.
• 1:10:02
  SPEAKER_02: How fun is that?
• 1:10:04
  SPEAKER_02: Those things are squished together in a way that
• 1:10:06
  SPEAKER_02: is not sustainable.
• 1:10:07
  SPEAKER_02: The person who gets this job,
• 1:10:09
  SPEAKER_02: it's not going to be a long-term gig.
• 1:10:11
  SPEAKER_02: Unless the company actually sits down with them and figures out,
• 1:10:14
  SPEAKER_02: oh... geez, yeah, we designed this poorly.
• 1:10:16
  SPEAKER_02: So let's take these things, put them somewhere else.
• 1:10:19
  SPEAKER_02: Let's take these things, put them somewhere else,
• 1:10:21
  SPEAKER_02: or not worry about them.
• 1:10:23
  SPEAKER_02: Unless they go through that process,
• 1:10:24
  SPEAKER_02: this is gonna fall apart pretty quick.
• 1:10:26
  SPEAKER_02: So I would say to the company or other companies that are writing job ads like this,
• 1:10:31
  SPEAKER_02: be very thoughtful about the different functional areas and different skill sets
• 1:10:36
  SPEAKER_02: that you're trying to squeeze together.
• 1:10:38
  SPEAKER_02: Because when you put them together in ways that don't work,
• 1:10:40
  SPEAKER_02: that don't match up with how people naturally work or what they are
• 1:10:44
  SPEAKER_02: or what they represent or what their background is,
• 1:10:47
  SPEAKER_02: you're gonna find that things fall apart pretty quick.
• 1:10:50
  SPEAKER_02: I would guess that this job gets reposted in about four months.
• 1:10:52
  SPEAKER_02: That's kind of my personal take.
• 1:10:54
  SPEAKER_02: So four out of ten for the job ad,
• 1:10:55
  SPEAKER_02: three out of ten for the role design for me.
• 1:10:58
  SPEAKER_00: For me, did like the job ad.
• 1:11:01
  SPEAKER_00: I thought that it was really interesting
• 1:11:03
  SPEAKER_00: and sounded appealing.
• 1:11:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's lacking all sorts of things though,
• 1:11:07
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 1:11:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's really hard for me to separate the job design from the job ad.
• 1:11:11
  SPEAKER_00: They put pen to paper, they tried to be creative,
• 1:11:13
  SPEAKER_00: there was an effort there, but we know that they're missing a bunch
• 1:11:17
  SPEAKER_00: of things and we know that it doesn't make sense.
• 1:11:20
  SPEAKER_00: think, yeah, there was an effort to represent their organization
• 1:11:26
  SPEAKER_00: and their culture.
• 1:11:28
  SPEAKER_00: I think too, docking points, because if you're going to have the audacity
• 1:11:32
  SPEAKER_00: to list those kinds of responsibilities,
• 1:11:35
  SPEAKER_00: then you need to have the conviction to include a salary,
• 1:11:39
  SPEAKER_00: to attach a salary to it.
• 1:11:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like,
• 1:11:41
  SPEAKER_00: just they lose all the points for any company moving forward,
• 1:11:45
  SPEAKER_00: in my opinion, needs to add a salary.
• 1:11:47
  SPEAKER_00: But when it's that much that you're asking for and that many different skill sets,
• 1:11:53
  SPEAKER_00: then yeah.
• 1:11:54
  SPEAKER_00: name the price.
• 1:11:56
  SPEAKER_00: So for me, was like,
• 1:11:57
  SPEAKER_00: I'm being a little bit more generous.
• 1:11:59
  SPEAKER_00: It was like a three and a half ish for me out of 10 for the job ad itself.
• 1:12:05
  SPEAKER_00: And then for the role design,
• 1:12:07
  SPEAKER_00: yeah, that's where they lose all of the points.
• 1:12:09
  SPEAKER_00: just, there's nothing new to be said there.
• 1:12:11
  SPEAKER_00: It just doesn't make any sense.
• 1:12:14
  SPEAKER_00: The person who gets this role,
• 1:12:15
  SPEAKER_00: they're gonna be like, why can't we find the right person for this role,
• 1:12:19
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 1:12:19
  SPEAKER_00: And it's all gonna be the candidate's fault.
• 1:12:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's gonna be nobody wants to work anymore and all of that like bullshit.
• 1:12:24
  SPEAKER_00: that we're hearing all the time.
• 1:12:26
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not that, it's that you have poorly designed this role,
• 1:12:30
  SPEAKER_00: bottom line.
• 1:12:31
  SPEAKER_00: So for that one, I would say I'm giving them like a one and a half,
• 1:12:35
  SPEAKER_00: maybe a two, because it's Thursday,
• 1:12:38
  SPEAKER_00: I'll give them a two.
• 1:12:41
  SPEAKER_02: And they're probably gonna come in with a goofy salary too when you
• 1:12:44
  SPEAKER_02: get through the interview phase.
• 1:12:45
  SPEAKER_02: They're probably gonna be like,
• 1:12:47
  SPEAKER_02: okay, we'll give you the equivalent of CAD $75,000 a year,
• 1:12:51
  SPEAKER_02: This is it.
• 1:12:52
  SPEAKER_00: This is what I'm saying.
• 1:12:53
  SPEAKER_00: and it'll be like, Really? Come on.
• 1:12:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 1:12:54
  SPEAKER_00: absolutely.
• 1:12:54
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.