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From High Stakes to Rock Bottom | Ed Toller · Real Crime with Adam Shand

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Appoche production.
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shand, I'm your host
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: Adam Shand. Australia is the gambling capital of the world
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: by a huge margin. Daylight is second.
• 0:24
  Speaker 3: Australians lose more money gambling than anyone.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: Else on Earth.
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: Our turnover is greater than the GDP of all but
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: fifty countries of the world, and the losses are just
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: as staggering.
• 0:37
  Speaker 4: In the twenty twenty two to twenty twenty three period,
• 0:39
  Speaker 4: Australian has lost approximately thirty two billion dollars to gambling and.
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: We have an epidemic of gambling related crime. Some of
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: the crimes are ingenious, but most have a compulsive, pathological
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: nature to them. Whenever I see a story where someone
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: has stolen from their employers, family, or friends, I look
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: for the gambling link. Gambling has always driven crime. Many
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: of our most notorious crooks were also huge punters. But
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: the people I'm seeing go through the courts today are
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: not career criminals, but people feeding an addiction. Ed Toller
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: stole one point seven million from people who believe he
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: was a financial advisor who could invest their money wisely.
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: In total, he swindled one million seven hundred and forty
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: four thousand, two hundred and twenty dollars from fourteen elderly
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: and unsophisticated investors, but instead he spent it on backing
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: horses and living a fantasy lifestyle. He promised to invest
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: the money instead, He's accused of gambling it away on
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: horses and sports, but reality eventually came calling, and in
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: twenty eighteen, Ed was sentenced to eight years in jail,
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: and he served five. He's free again, rebuilding his life,
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: and he now shares the story of his fall from
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: grace and what it offers others in the grip of
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: a gambling addiction. And I'm really pleased to welcome Ed
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: to the Real Crime Studio.
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: Okay, Ed, oh good, I Adam, thanks thanks for having me.
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: How do you reflect on what happened to you and
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: your journey to this moment?
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean you.
• 2:13
  Speaker 5: Touched on a couple of things during that intro, and
• 2:15
  Speaker 5: gambling and the money that I took and the eventual
• 2:18
  Speaker 5: consequence of it. I guess you know, they all happened
• 2:21
  Speaker 5: so far apart, but ultimately the downfall, if you like,
• 2:25
  Speaker 5: or the end result was I guess an inevitability. And
• 2:29
  Speaker 5: you know, I probably could have seen it coming twenty
• 2:32
  Speaker 5: years ago, but chose to.
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: I guess it's not that I.
• 2:36
  Speaker 5: Chose to ignore it, but I certainly chose to avoid
• 2:40
  Speaker 5: thinking about it because I could see that gambling was
• 2:43
  Speaker 5: a real problem for me, but I wasn't willing to
• 2:45
  Speaker 5: admit that early on in the piece.
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: You were born in England, and I think you all
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: gambling began there, in horse racing and so forth.
• 2:54
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, I've been involved and tied in with
• 2:57
  Speaker 5: horse racing for a big part of my life through
• 3:00
  Speaker 5: one way or another. You know, I had some family
• 3:02
  Speaker 5: ties within the industry. I loved it.
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: I still do. I'm enamored with the sport. I think
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: it's something that, unfortunately.
• 3:10
  Speaker 5: You either really like it and take a really good
• 3:12
  Speaker 5: interest in it or it's just never for you. And
• 3:15
  Speaker 5: I think unfortunately I was one of those people where
• 3:17
  Speaker 5: it got me early on. And it wasn't initially about
• 3:21
  Speaker 5: the gambling. It was more about the theater of the
• 3:23
  Speaker 5: sport and what it offered. But as my opportunities within
• 3:27
  Speaker 5: the industry sort of dimmed, I found that gambling was
• 3:30
  Speaker 5: one that was always there and I could always utilize
• 3:33
  Speaker 5: and I could always rely on and I guess I
• 3:37
  Speaker 5: was under the impression that I could make a living
• 3:39
  Speaker 5: out of gambling on horse racing and other sports, and
• 3:43
  Speaker 5: how wrong I could be.
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: Well, what was the path then, because I believe you're
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: involved in racing back in England and I think you
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: were warned off tracks for a couple of years there.
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: There was a story about tips and jockeys and so forth,
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: and you were caught up in that, and I guess
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: your livelihood was curtailed then. I think you called it
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: a toxic lifestyle you're involved with. You come to Australia,
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: What was your plan?
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so look, I'll touch on that briefly.
• 4:11
  Speaker 5: Look, I think when I got warned off from tracks
• 4:13
  Speaker 5: in the UK for twelve months, that was a real
• 4:16
  Speaker 5: shock to the system.
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: You know, I let a lot of people down.
• 4:19
  Speaker 5: And I never saw myself in that position before that happened,
• 4:24
  Speaker 5: and I never believed that that would happen. But yeah,
• 4:26
  Speaker 5: ultimately I was very naive in the situation to think
• 4:29
  Speaker 5: that I was going to exploit a.
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: Loophole that wasn't a loophole. Australia.
• 4:35
  Speaker 5: The move, it was all about a change of scenery,
• 4:37
  Speaker 5: a fresh start, you know, a culture change. And you know,
• 4:41
  Speaker 5: little did I know that landing here, I was landing
• 4:43
  Speaker 5: in the gambling capital of the world, which.
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: You know it certainly isn't.
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  Speaker 5: After a week, I went into a pub and it
• 4:49
  Speaker 5: had a bookies in the corner, and I thought, all
• 4:52
  Speaker 5: my dreams have come true, so to speak. It's like,
• 4:54
  Speaker 5: it's that easy. And it was alarming, but not in
• 4:58
  Speaker 5: a bad way. Initially, for someone that loves gambling and
• 5:02
  Speaker 5: someone that loves that the combined lifestyle, the drinking and
• 5:05
  Speaker 5: the gambling and all of that other stuff that goes
• 5:07
  Speaker 5: with it, I thought it was great. You know, I thought,
• 5:10
  Speaker 5: this is just ideal. I can do it guilt free,
• 5:14
  Speaker 5: and you know, nothing will ever happen. But it all
• 5:17
  Speaker 5: unfolded pretty quickly.
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: Because you were a student of the form you would
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: have backed yourself to be able to make good decisions
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: and to make a living, because that's what you've done previously.
• 5:28
  Speaker 3: When did it all start to go wrong?
• 5:31
  Speaker 5: I mean, you know, I could always pick a winner,
• 5:34
  Speaker 5: always never had a problem studying the formula of something
• 5:38
  Speaker 5: I was obviously quite good at.
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: I could find winners. You know, I had.
• 5:42
  Speaker 5: Access to information that others might not, so I had
• 5:45
  Speaker 5: an edge, But the problem was I couldn't stop because
• 5:49
  Speaker 5: I did it compulsively. As any other gambling addict or
• 5:52
  Speaker 5: person who doesn't gamble will understand, if you can't stop
• 5:56
  Speaker 5: doing something, eventually it's not going to work for you.
• 5:58
  Speaker 5: And I think it began to unfold in two thousand
• 6:01
  Speaker 5: and fourteen and I had a business. I had a
• 6:06
  Speaker 5: couple of clients that I could see avenues where I
• 6:08
  Speaker 5: could utilize their funds to try and make more money
• 6:11
  Speaker 5: for myself. So I started doing that, but I wasn't
• 6:15
  Speaker 5: doing it consciously, and I knew what I was doing,
• 6:17
  Speaker 5: and I was in a bad place mentally and physically.
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: And I wasn't making right decisions.
• 6:25
  Speaker 5: And to think that I landed here in twenty twelve,
• 6:28
  Speaker 5: and by twenty seventeen, I was in jail for five years.
• 6:32
  Speaker 5: It's such a small period of time for someone's life
• 6:35
  Speaker 5: to unravel the way it did, but ultimately it probably
• 6:39
  Speaker 5: didn't start unraveling until twenty fourteen, and between that time
• 6:43
  Speaker 5: and the time that I got arrested, it's a three
• 6:45
  Speaker 5: year gap where everything just went boom.
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: Because people rarely set out with the intention to steal
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: to gamble, but it's sometimes let's use the money to
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: chase my losses and I'll get out ahead of back
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: in the black, as it were. But often it doesn't
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: go that way. I think it's very common story.
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Like I never ever intended to take one dollar
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: of any of the client's money, the truth be known.
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: What happened was I was running an arbitrage scheme that
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: went barely up because of my gambling habit, and I
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: decided to leave a bit live rather than trade out
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: of it. And it was for a couple of hundred
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: thousand dollars and I didn't have the necessary funds to
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: replace it, so I had to make a call, and
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: I made a call to another client and I fulfilled
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: the investment, and then I used that money to gamble
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: to chase the other money back. And it was a
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: domino effect that kept going.
• 7:47
  Speaker 5: Until it stopped, you know, until it became too much,
• 7:50
  Speaker 5: until people realized that they probably.
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: Weren't going to see their money again.
• 7:54
  Speaker 5: And unfortunately I wasn't in a position to return that
• 7:57
  Speaker 5: money because I gambled it.
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: Because I think a lot of people see this situation
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: as like a moral failing, but I think it's a pathological,
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: compulsive situation. And I think when you see what happens
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: to people in their day to day as they're in
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: the grip of this sort of gambling bag, it is horrific.
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: Tell us what an average day was like for you
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: as you're chasing your losses.
• 8:22
  Speaker 3: What would you do?
• 8:24
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I think for me, when I was gambling at
• 8:27
  Speaker 5: that sort of level, you know, I might be having
• 8:30
  Speaker 5: two or three hundred bets a day.
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: You know what I find probably.
• 8:34
  Speaker 5: More soul destroying about it is that, you know I
• 8:37
  Speaker 5: wouldn't start off. I would start off under the notion
• 8:40
  Speaker 5: that I'm just going to have a couple of bets today.
• 8:42
  Speaker 5: You know, I used to say to myself that I
• 8:44
  Speaker 5: didn't like to win early because if I won early,
• 8:46
  Speaker 5: I wouldn't stop.
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: I would run out of money by the end of
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: the day.
• 8:50
  Speaker 5: Because I think I can win time after time, So
• 8:53
  Speaker 5: if I win too early, it's no good. But you know,
• 8:56
  Speaker 5: my typical day would be that I'd get up, I'd
• 8:58
  Speaker 5: study the form, I'd start betting at lunchtime, and you know,
• 9:03
  Speaker 5: I might still be betting on greyhound's highness and horses
• 9:07
  Speaker 5: until the middle of the night.
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: You know, of all the betting accounts I ever had.
• 9:12
  Speaker 5: There was only one time from one company did an
• 9:15
  Speaker 5: individual who worked for them say, are you okay? Like
• 9:19
  Speaker 5: you know, you know, you've had like three hundred bets
• 9:22
  Speaker 5: today or in the last week, You've had this money
• 9:24
  Speaker 5: number of bets. And I genuinely respect that guy even
• 9:28
  Speaker 5: looking back, because he wasn't the way that their company
• 9:32
  Speaker 5: was set up. They didn't make direct money out of
• 9:35
  Speaker 5: me on how much I punted, It didn't matter to them.
• 9:38
  Speaker 5: It was more a case of I was just a
• 9:41
  Speaker 5: valuable client to them for many different reasons. But he
• 9:46
  Speaker 5: showed true compassion on a couple of occasions. So I
• 9:49
  Speaker 5: don't want to tie them all with the same brush.
• 9:51
  Speaker 5: But you know, that was one account out of twenty,
• 9:55
  Speaker 5: and I lost a lot of money through a lot
• 9:57
  Speaker 5: of different accounts. You know, obviously the money that we're
• 10:00
  Speaker 5: talking is one point seven million that was stolen, but
• 10:03
  Speaker 5: the true reality of that that was probably turnover of
• 10:06
  Speaker 5: you know, anywhere between three and four So you know,
• 10:10
  Speaker 5: there's a lot of money that's gone over time there.
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: Because you did know the forms, there must have been
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: good days where you're actually winning. Were there moments where
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: you think, well, if I get far enough ahead I
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: can stop this.
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 10:23
  Speaker 5: I mean there was times where I won a lot
• 10:25
  Speaker 5: of money, and you know, I would use some of
• 10:27
  Speaker 5: it to function life, like you know, paying my rent.
• 10:31
  Speaker 5: Because people think, you know, a lot of what was
• 10:34
  Speaker 5: written in the press is ah, he lived this big,
• 10:36
  Speaker 5: lavish lifestyle, he lived in this place, but the true
• 10:40
  Speaker 5: reality is of it. I was with Telstra and I
• 10:42
  Speaker 5: could get the records. My phone got cut off every
• 10:44
  Speaker 5: second month because I wasn't paying one hundred and eighty.
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: Dollars a month telephone bill.
• 10:49
  Speaker 5: So you know, as much as it's looked upon that
• 10:51
  Speaker 5: I was living lavishly, I was living day to day
• 10:54
  Speaker 5: hand to mouth because all the money that I had
• 10:57
  Speaker 5: was going towards gambling on the whole. And you know,
• 11:01
  Speaker 5: there would be times I'd always as a compulsive gambler,
• 11:05
  Speaker 5: I'm always under the impression that I can dig myself
• 11:07
  Speaker 5: out of any hole, because along with being a compulsive gambler,
• 11:10
  Speaker 5: I was a compulsive liar. And I learned how to
• 11:13
  Speaker 5: lie to protect myself and to enable myself to be
• 11:17
  Speaker 5: able to do these things.
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: And you know, I look back at that now and
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: I'm ashamed.
• 11:22
  Speaker 5: Of some of the behavior that I portrayed, but it
• 11:25
  Speaker 5: wasn't a true reflection of me.
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: And I know that.
• 11:28
  Speaker 5: And there's going to be people that will say that's bollocks,
• 11:31
  Speaker 5: and there'll be people that will say good on for
• 11:34
  Speaker 5: turning it around. But the reality is, I know in
• 11:37
  Speaker 5: myself that that wasn't a true reflection my personality and
• 11:40
  Speaker 5: my character. But when this thing gets you, it doesn't
• 11:45
  Speaker 5: stop until it takes everything from you. And they talk
• 11:47
  Speaker 5: about rock bottoms, and everyone's got a different one, and yeah,
• 11:53
  Speaker 5: it can come in any shape.
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: Or size, because what you say is correct, because every
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: gambler that I've spoken to, or compulsive behaviors, even drugs
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: and so forth, there's a gap between a person's values
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: and where they found themselves, and they live in this
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: limbo in between, which was full of anxiety, shame, and guilt,
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: which often prevents them from stopping, and they lose themselves
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: in that. You talk about a rock bottom, What was
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: your personal rock bottom?
• 12:23
  Speaker 5: It's funny because I thought I had plenty before jail,
• 12:27
  Speaker 5: and then I went there, and I think ultimately that
• 12:29
  Speaker 5: was definitely. Like I remember sitting in the court when
• 12:33
  Speaker 5: I got sentenced, and I was so angry that I'd
• 12:36
  Speaker 5: been sentenced for so long. I got such a high,
• 12:39
  Speaker 5: big sentence. I was fuming, and I remember leaning over
• 12:43
  Speaker 5: to my solicter saying to him, you got to lodge
• 12:46
  Speaker 5: an appeal, like that's ridiculous. But I remember going back
• 12:49
  Speaker 5: because I've already had ten eleven months in jail by
• 12:52
  Speaker 5: this time. When I got sentenced, I didn't get any bail.
• 12:55
  Speaker 5: I remember going back to the jail that night and
• 12:57
  Speaker 5: just sitting there and reflecting on it and just thinking,
• 13:00
  Speaker 5: you know what, this is probably a good thing.
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: Ultimately, this is probably what I need.
• 13:05
  Speaker 3: Because the judge didn't spare you.
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: He gave you a good bollocking, a good dressing down
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: in his remarks, and he talked about the people that
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: you had stolen from their elderly people, in some cases retirees,
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: putting their life savings into things, and there was seemed
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: to be a very high moral culpability that he wanted
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: to communicate to you.
• 13:23
  Speaker 3: Did you feel that way.
• 13:26
  Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, definitely. I think, and look, ultimately, with the
• 13:30
  Speaker 5: benefit of hindsight, now I think it was probably the
• 13:32
  Speaker 5: right sentence, and I think that it was a just
• 13:35
  Speaker 5: outcome for the crime that I committed.
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: You know, I don't hide behind the fact that I
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: was a gambler.
• 13:40
  Speaker 5: But what I did was the wrong thing, and it's
• 13:43
  Speaker 5: by law, it's a punishable offense by a criminal court,
• 13:47
  Speaker 5: and I deserved what I got in my opinion. You know,
• 13:50
  Speaker 5: I speak to people all the time and through gambling
• 13:55
  Speaker 5: arenas or whatever it is, and they all say, oh,
• 13:57
  Speaker 5: you know, that.
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: Sentence was ridiculous.
• 13:59
  Speaker 5: But ultimately, you know, I turned people's lives upside down
• 14:04
  Speaker 5: with what I did.
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: You know, that's something that I've got to live with,
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: but they've also got to live with it.
• 14:09
  Speaker 5: So you know, there is a moral accountability that's attached
• 14:13
  Speaker 5: to that, and you know, I need to be held
• 14:15
  Speaker 5: accountable for what I did, and I feel.
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: Like I was.
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: You know. At the same time, the people who are
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: probably along with you for the ride, enjoying that high
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: lifestyle that you're enjoying, they all disappear when you're in
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: the jail cell on your own and you realize you're
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: sort of friendless, and that must be a very difficult
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: moment personally, and you're taking stock of your own personality
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: and your own choices. That's a moment most people don't face.
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: What's that like?
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: It's funny, you know, because a lot of people that were.
• 14:48
  Speaker 5: Around when I was gambling, I honestly would have thought
• 14:51
  Speaker 5: that they would have been quite close friends. And I
• 14:54
  Speaker 5: wasn't under the impression that anything I could really do
• 14:57
  Speaker 5: would ever deter them from having a friendship with me.
• 15:00
  Speaker 5: But I was very wrong about that, and probably eighty
• 15:03
  Speaker 5: percent of the people that I was with prior to
• 15:05
  Speaker 5: going to jail I no longer am. And there was
• 15:09
  Speaker 5: definitely a sense of anger at first. But you know,
• 15:12
  Speaker 5: I've had a lot of time to reflect on that stuff,
• 15:14
  Speaker 5: obviously from where I was, and I think that to me,
• 15:18
  Speaker 5: that's a bonus now to live life without those people
• 15:22
  Speaker 5: and to not have them within my circle, if you like,
• 15:25
  Speaker 5: because I think certainly it's not that i'd believe that
• 15:29
  Speaker 5: they're guilty by association, but certainly they're around when there
• 15:33
  Speaker 5: was all the trimmings of what comes with being a
• 15:35
  Speaker 5: gambler who wants to spend his money on all sorts
• 15:39
  Speaker 5: of different things, you know, and there were people that
• 15:41
  Speaker 5: would take advantage of that situation, and you know, they're
• 15:45
  Speaker 5: no longer around. And to me, do I look back
• 15:48
  Speaker 5: on that and think where are they now?
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: No?
• 15:51
  Speaker 5: Not really, because I think that they're probably doing it
• 15:54
  Speaker 5: to someone else, or they're probably living a life that
• 15:59
  Speaker 5: you know, maybe they regret some of it as well,
• 16:01
  Speaker 5: i'd hope.
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: Well, I'm sure in the Eastern Cumbers of Sydney where
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: I also grew up as well, and I understand the
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: tribe of people that attach themselves to you, and you
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: can back it in that they would have attached themselves
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: to somebody else the next hot thing, and it is
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: a soulless experience and friendships are very tenuous. In jail,
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: you met a different class of people. You went to
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: a private school in England, well educated, you know, here
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: you're meeting people with no chance in life who were
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: in there and this is going to be their life career. Criminals,
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: people have made some really dumb mistake. How did that
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: impact you and give you, I guess a sense of
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: what you'd squandered in a way.
• 16:43
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, jail here is really eye opening. Obviously
• 16:50
  Speaker 5: you touched on the fact that I lived in the
• 16:51
  Speaker 5: Eastern Suburbs. I lived in a community I guess, which
• 16:55
  Speaker 5: is very sheltered and very privileged and very out of
• 17:00
  Speaker 5: the I'd almost call.
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: It far removed from reality in a hones Stone.
• 17:05
  Speaker 5: And when I went in there, you know, I went
• 17:07
  Speaker 5: to a number of different jails within New South Wales,
• 17:11
  Speaker 5: but I met so many people that have literally had
• 17:14
  Speaker 5: the opposite of my lifestyle, the polar opposite. They've had
• 17:18
  Speaker 5: no chance since the day that they were born. They've
• 17:21
  Speaker 5: had domestic violence, they've had drug use, they've had alcohol, gambling,
• 17:27
  Speaker 5: and they've grown up knowing only one route really, if
• 17:31
  Speaker 5: you like, Whereas I didn't, I grew up knowing that
• 17:33
  Speaker 5: crime was bad and that I shouldn't do it, and
• 17:36
  Speaker 5: if I do it, you know, this is what the
• 17:38
  Speaker 5: punishment will be. And I feel like there's so much unknown,
• 17:42
  Speaker 5: you know, there's this like people are obsessed with crime
• 17:45
  Speaker 5: shows and documentaries around crime and what it is and
• 17:49
  Speaker 5: who commits it and.
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: Murder shows and all this whatever else.
• 17:53
  Speaker 5: But the reality is that the people who are committing
• 17:56
  Speaker 5: day to day crimes, if you like, who just keep
• 18:00
  Speaker 5: returning in and out of.
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: The system year in, year out.
• 18:03
  Speaker 5: It's really sad stories that we don't hear about out
• 18:06
  Speaker 5: here because there's no need for it, you know, there's
• 18:09
  Speaker 5: no need for people to hear about it. But I
• 18:11
  Speaker 5: think that some of the stuff, like, you know, I
• 18:13
  Speaker 5: write letters for people who couldn't write or couldn't read,
• 18:17
  Speaker 5: you know, wanted to translate a message across to a
• 18:20
  Speaker 5: judge when they were going in for you know, some
• 18:22
  Speaker 5: form of crime that they've committed. They'd want to write
• 18:25
  Speaker 5: something to the judge, not letting him or her know
• 18:29
  Speaker 5: why they should show leniency. And I think there was
• 18:33
  Speaker 5: I guess I was just living in this bubble where
• 18:36
  Speaker 5: I had no idea of what real society had or
• 18:40
  Speaker 5: was going on. And I think that you know, probably
• 18:43
  Speaker 5: for me, that was a big wake up call.
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: Well it was.
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: I guess it was a humbling moment where you could
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: look at your life to that point and what it
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: could be from here on in. And I mean five
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: years in jail is no joke, and it's about punishment,
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: but it's also about rehabilitation and theory. And you're there
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: a gambling addict. You can still gamble in jail if
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: you want to. There's always ways to do that. But
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: was there any semblance of anything, a program, a person,
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: a moment where you could confront your gambling and start
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: to make a plan about what would happen after jail.
• 19:18
  Speaker 5: I mean, they ran a couple of things when you
• 19:20
  Speaker 5: go into jail, they screen you, so they ask you
• 19:23
  Speaker 5: a load of questions and they say, are you addicted
• 19:26
  Speaker 5: to anything or whatever? I think it's mainly like they
• 19:30
  Speaker 5: ask you whether it's alcohol, drugs. You have to nominate
• 19:32
  Speaker 5: gambling if that's something that you've got a problem with,
• 19:35
  Speaker 5: and I did, but I think it took like two
• 19:38
  Speaker 5: and a half years before I got into a program
• 19:41
  Speaker 5: to address anything around addiction. And they do this thing
• 19:45
  Speaker 5: called Equip's Addiction, which is run by a programs officer
• 19:49
  Speaker 5: in the jail.
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: I mean it's better than nothing.
• 19:52
  Speaker 5: But to me, it was verging on a waste of time,
• 19:55
  Speaker 5: you know, And a lot of people have to do it.
• 19:58
  Speaker 5: They make people do it in order to get certain
• 20:00
  Speaker 5: classifications and potentially even get parole or you know, whatever
• 20:04
  Speaker 5: it may be. So as a compulsive gambler or an alcoholic,
• 20:09
  Speaker 5: you have to sort of volunteer the fact that you
• 20:11
  Speaker 5: want to give it up, because otherwise it doesn't work.
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: You have to be willing to admit that it's a problem.
• 20:17
  Speaker 5: Whereas this is kind of forced upon people who have
• 20:20
  Speaker 5: said at a screening question that they might have drunk
• 20:23
  Speaker 5: too much or taken drugs from time to time. So
• 20:26
  Speaker 5: really that was the only thing that was offered. And
• 20:29
  Speaker 5: gambling's rife in jail in Australia, Like it's everywhere. I
• 20:33
  Speaker 5: gambled in jail a lot. What would you gamble on
• 20:37
  Speaker 5: the footy, the NRL horses anything, play poker, play cards.
• 20:43
  Speaker 5: You probably gamble more in there than you would on
• 20:45
  Speaker 5: the outside, to be fair. It's just that you've got
• 20:48
  Speaker 5: to pay whoever it is within the system, you know,
• 20:52
  Speaker 5: or you've got to gamble against one of your fellow
• 20:54
  Speaker 5: inmates rather than an app or a bookie.
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's everywhere.
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: Which can be dangerous and frightening. In jail is certainly
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: both those things, but it's also incredibly boring too, and
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: you've got to pass the time somehow. You're facing this
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: five year stretch. How you're feeling each day.
• 21:12
  Speaker 5: Well, I went in there very heavy and chubby and
• 21:15
  Speaker 5: bloated and a mess from all the drink and the
• 21:18
  Speaker 5: drugs and the bad food and the gambling. So I
• 21:22
  Speaker 5: pretty much said to myself that I definitely wanted to
• 21:25
  Speaker 5: fix that up. So that was one of the first
• 21:27
  Speaker 5: things that I did, was fitness and got myself in
• 21:30
  Speaker 5: better shape. But I mean, you can only do that
• 21:33
  Speaker 5: to some form of level. It depends what jail you're in,
• 21:36
  Speaker 5: but you know, you're locked in a cell a lot
• 21:38
  Speaker 5: of the time. It might be from three pm until
• 21:41
  Speaker 5: eight am the next day, so.
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: You're very limited in what you can do.
• 21:45
  Speaker 5: You're very limited in what you can eat, what you
• 21:48
  Speaker 5: get access to you know, you have a certain number
• 21:51
  Speaker 5: of TV channels, whatever. But I think that you've got
• 21:54
  Speaker 5: to be able to reflect when you're in there, because
• 21:56
  Speaker 5: that's a lot of your time is going to be
• 21:58
  Speaker 5: spent doing that, you know, especially when you're doing a
• 22:01
  Speaker 5: long stretch, because effectively there is nothing else to do.
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: You know, you can read. I wanted to study when
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: I was in there. I wasn't allowed to.
• 22:10
  Speaker 5: That was a big bummer for me because early on
• 22:12
  Speaker 5: in the thing, I've really expressed an interest in looking
• 22:15
  Speaker 5: into doing a psychology degree, but there was no assistance. Yeah,
• 22:20
  Speaker 5: it was just very They made it harder to do
• 22:23
  Speaker 5: it than not to do it, which, yeah, it's just
• 22:26
  Speaker 5: I think that's a reflection of the system itself.
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: Well, the system is there to punish you primarily, and
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: that's always been the notion of jail. If you can
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: make it a little bit harder than people liked them
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: that that's part of the whole ethos of jail. But
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: as you say, you get that time to reflect, and
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: I guess people can have these demoscene conversions, like bold moments, epiphanies,
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: all that type of stuff. But it's not like that,
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: is it. It's a gradual coming back to yourself and
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: closing that gap between what you'd become and who you
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: really were.
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: Well, a lot of.
• 22:59
  Speaker 5: People love going to jail because they make money in there,
• 23:02
  Speaker 5: or it's an opportunity for them. You learn from the
• 23:06
  Speaker 5: best in there if you want to become a career criminal.
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: So there's two aspects of it.
• 23:11
  Speaker 5: You can either go in there under the notion that
• 23:13
  Speaker 5: you really want to sort yourself out and get something
• 23:16
  Speaker 5: from it, make it a worthwhile exercise, or you're going
• 23:19
  Speaker 5: in there and you come out worse than you went in.
• 23:22
  Speaker 5: And I think that's a part of the reason that
• 23:24
  Speaker 5: we see the reoffending rates and the returns into the
• 23:27
  Speaker 5: system is because of the lack of stability, or lack
• 23:31
  Speaker 5: of programs, or lack of help that there is within
• 23:33
  Speaker 5: that system. So you really have to be quite a
• 23:35
  Speaker 5: strong character, I think, to overcome that whilst in there.
• 23:39
  Speaker 5: And actually try and do something with your times, especially
• 23:42
  Speaker 5: because I understand the people that are in and out
• 23:45
  Speaker 5: doing six month stretches, there's not enough time for them
• 23:47
  Speaker 5: to do a program or a business degree or whatever
• 23:50
  Speaker 5: it may be. But then the ones that are in
• 23:53
  Speaker 5: there longer term, you know, you pretty soon in you
• 23:56
  Speaker 5: know that you're looking at a decent sentence. You want
• 23:58
  Speaker 5: to try and put some things in place where you're
• 24:00
  Speaker 5: going to get something from that.
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: And that was my notion.
• 24:03
  Speaker 5: And I knew the punishment fitted the crime, and so
• 24:07
  Speaker 5: I knew that it was about me being punished, and
• 24:10
  Speaker 5: you know, that meant going from jail to jail, and
• 24:13
  Speaker 5: that meant waiting a certain period of time to get
• 24:15
  Speaker 5: certain things. But I was a bit unlucky because obviously
• 24:19
  Speaker 5: COVID hit when I was in jail, and that diminished
• 24:22
  Speaker 5: any chance of any work release or early release or.
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: Anything like that.
• 24:25
  Speaker 5: So that was all removed from me, which is a
• 24:28
  Speaker 5: normal aspect of prison for most people these days.
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: With a decent sized sentence.
• 24:34
  Speaker 5: That you will get the opportunity to go out to
• 24:36
  Speaker 5: the community prior to your release and either work or
• 24:40
  Speaker 5: you'll get day release or weekend release, and all of
• 24:43
  Speaker 5: that was removed through COVID, So you know, I took
• 24:46
  Speaker 5: a few knocks on the way, and then eventually when
• 24:49
  Speaker 5: I got out, I knew I just had to make
• 24:51
  Speaker 5: some changes in life.
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: Because you went in at thirty four, a good time, Charlie,
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: having a great time of it. You hit the sober
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: reality of Porridge in jail, and you come out nearing forty.
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: The world has changed completely. You're hoping to make changes yourself,
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: but when you walk out, you see there's a gambling
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: opportunity on every corner. It's in your phone, it is everywhere.
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: How did you confront the hard moment of giving up
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: your gambling addiction.
• 25:21
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I was really fortunate that when I came out,
• 25:25
  Speaker 5: I met someone. That person was in a twelve step
• 25:28
  Speaker 5: recovery and recommended that I go to a meeting of
• 25:34
  Speaker 5: gamblers anonymous, and I went to a meeting, and if
• 25:40
  Speaker 5: I'm honest, the first.
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: One didn't really rock my boat. I wasn't taken with it.
• 25:44
  Speaker 5: And I gambled again for a month or two and
• 25:47
  Speaker 5: you know, nothing drastic, but I didn't enjoy it. I
• 25:50
  Speaker 5: didn't enjoy the gambling like I felt this sense of chasing, chasing, chasing,
• 25:54
  Speaker 5: which I didn't enjoy, and I wasn't drinking.
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: So I was sober as well.
• 26:00
  Speaker 5: So I started going to some more meetings and I
• 26:03
  Speaker 5: just I started to meet people that have gone through
• 26:06
  Speaker 5: what I was going through and hearing what they've gone
• 26:08
  Speaker 5: through and hearing that there was some form of solution,
• 26:13
  Speaker 5: and I just decided to give it my best shot.
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: And I haven't looked back since.
• 26:18
  Speaker 5: And I think that ultimately there's success within unity and groups.
• 26:23
  Speaker 5: Like when you see someone else tread a path and
• 26:26
  Speaker 5: they're successful, you kind of want.
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: What they have.
• 26:30
  Speaker 5: And I think that that's what I've probably got now
• 26:33
  Speaker 5: from that. And yeah, it's been a huge, huge help
• 26:36
  Speaker 5: to me. But like you say, advertising and gambling, advertising
• 26:41
  Speaker 5: and the fact that pubs and clubs and Pokeys and
• 26:44
  Speaker 5: every bookie under the sun can advertise, the reality is
• 26:48
  Speaker 5: that I don't think that's going anywhere. The Pokeyes aren't
• 26:50
  Speaker 5: going anywhere, the bookies aren't going anywhere. Horse racing, greyhounds,
• 26:54
  Speaker 5: it's not going anywhere. You know, the footy, the sport, whatever,
• 26:58
  Speaker 5: that's not leaving. So it's up to us as addicts
• 27:02
  Speaker 5: if you like to try and steer clar of it organically.
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: Without I disagree with it all the advertising lite.
• 27:09
  Speaker 5: I don't think it should be allowed to be put
• 27:12
  Speaker 5: in front of our children and kids and the youth
• 27:15
  Speaker 5: of today.
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: But ultimately they seem to get away with it.
• 27:18
  Speaker 5: Nothing's being done on the Murphy recommendations, which is very sad.
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: You know, we've just re elected.
• 27:24
  Speaker 5: Alban Easy and I don't really believe that he is
• 27:28
  Speaker 5: that interested in making any change to it, which is unfortunate. Again,
• 27:32
  Speaker 5: but I don't think that any of them were prior
• 27:35
  Speaker 5: to the election, if I'm honest, and I think that
• 27:37
  Speaker 5: a lot of them would use it as a potentially
• 27:39
  Speaker 5: a sounding board to try and get voters, but I
• 27:41
  Speaker 5: think ultimately there's too much money coming through it.
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: So you've got to work out a.
• 27:45
  Speaker 5: Way where you can stay away from this without that
• 27:49
  Speaker 5: being reality. And I think that that's what I've had
• 27:52
  Speaker 5: to do, and I know plenty of other people that
• 27:54
  Speaker 5: do it, and I think that's, you know, the best
• 27:58
  Speaker 5: avenue to use at this stage.
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: Because governments have a massive conflict of interest in Australia.
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: As much as they'd like to promote responsible gambling messages
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: and so forth, it's inescapable that our budgets rely upon
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: gambling taxes and excise, and that industry relies for its
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: success on the two or three percent of problem gamblers
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: like you, So I can't see how it's ever going
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: to change. It's always up to the individuals such as
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: yourself to do that. And as you say, you're always
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: an addict, how do you guard against relapses? Because, like
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: I say, you walk out the door, you can be
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: hit with a dozen gambling messages before you get to
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: the corner.
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 28:38
  Speaker 5: And I think I mean for me personally, I just
• 28:41
  Speaker 5: do what I've been doing for the last three and
• 28:43
  Speaker 5: a half years, which is I'll concentrate on myself. You know,
• 28:47
  Speaker 5: I might try and talk to people wherever possible who
• 28:50
  Speaker 5: are going through the same scenario.
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: That I was.
• 28:52
  Speaker 5: I think that helping people is a huge part of
• 28:55
  Speaker 5: recovering oneself.
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: Look, I'm very in touch.
• 29:00
  Speaker 5: With what they're doing in the UK at the moment
• 29:02
  Speaker 5: in terms of around gambling and the legislation, and they're
• 29:05
  Speaker 5: doing affordability checks and that's been a huge driver. If
• 29:10
  Speaker 5: someone had come to me when I was in the
• 29:12
  Speaker 5: midst of my gambling and said, how are you affording
• 29:15
  Speaker 5: to do this? I wouldn't have been able to prove
• 29:17
  Speaker 5: my income, and so that avenue of opportunity would have
• 29:21
  Speaker 5: been cut off to me. Now, I know there's black
• 29:23
  Speaker 5: markets and there's bookies, but it's small changes like that
• 29:27
  Speaker 5: that can possibly help just as much as relinquishing advertising
• 29:32
  Speaker 5: and things like that. But if you cut off avenues
• 29:35
  Speaker 5: for gamblers, it's more likely that they will seek options
• 29:40
  Speaker 5: where they could stop gambling. But if everything's open to you,
• 29:44
  Speaker 5: and you know, if you can steal money, or you
• 29:46
  Speaker 5: can take money from employers, or you can take money
• 29:49
  Speaker 5: from your parents, and you can gamble, Like if you're
• 29:52
  Speaker 5: a nineteen year old and you take twenty or thirty
• 29:54
  Speaker 5: grand off someone, no company's going to ask them where
• 29:57
  Speaker 5: they got that money from.
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: They're going to take it.
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: And when I pick up the newspapers every day, almost
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: there's another story about a fraud, an embezzlement, straight out theft,
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: people stealing to gamble, and that also doesn't include the
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: amount of money that's stolen from families. It's never reported.
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: So you've had a chance to see the extent of
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: this problem. And I don't think it's getting any better.
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: No, And I think.
• 30:21
  Speaker 5: That you hit the nail on the head Gambling is
• 30:25
  Speaker 5: a disease, and the feeling that it gives you is
• 30:29
  Speaker 5: a drug. It's just the same as taking drugs. There
• 30:33
  Speaker 5: is a rush like no other when you're doing it,
• 30:36
  Speaker 5: and so for an addict, if he has to steal
• 30:39
  Speaker 5: money to do it or she has to steal money
• 30:41
  Speaker 5: to do it, they will do that, just like a
• 30:44
  Speaker 5: drug addict will take money to go and score drugs.
• 30:47
  Speaker 5: It's the same thing, but it's not universally recognized as.
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: A problem, and that is the problem. The problem sits
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: within the problem.
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: And yet when people come for sentencing, there is no
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: mitigation for a gambling addiction the way that you might
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: have for other forms of addiction, including drugs. You're getting
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: the highest possible sentence, and the media often portrays these
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: gambling criminals, if you like, as losers, as the exception,
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: the people who didn't have the moral fiber, couldn't take
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: the heat, didn't have the courage, whatever it is. So
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: while we have that attitude that stokes the problem with gambling,
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: in my opinion, that we're not addressing the fact that
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: you're not a career criminal.
• 31:34
  Speaker 3: You never set out.
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: To do this, but it was your addiction that drove
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: you in a place and I love the fact that
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: you're not ashamed to admit what you did and take responsibility.
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: But there needs to be, in my opinion, some mitigation
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: given to people like you and sentencing.
• 31:50
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, look, I had two guys I know
• 31:53
  Speaker 5: and have had a bit to do with in the
• 31:54
  Speaker 5: last couple of years, have both been sentenced for similar
• 31:57
  Speaker 5: crimes to mine, And when there were sentences, I was just, honestly,
• 32:01
  Speaker 5: I was fabergasted by the sentences that they received. I
• 32:04
  Speaker 5: was just I'm dumbfounded because their cases pointed towards the
• 32:08
  Speaker 5: gambling side of things, probably way more than minded. They
• 32:13
  Speaker 5: both received quite similar sentences to me, and I thought,
• 32:16
  Speaker 5: how can a judge honestly looking at the facts of
• 32:20
  Speaker 5: where this person spent their money and gambled their money.
• 32:23
  Speaker 5: How can he honestly sit there and say that this
• 32:25
  Speaker 5: is not a problem. I just can't get my head
• 32:28
  Speaker 5: around it. I cannot fathom how they can come to
• 32:31
  Speaker 5: that decision consciously.
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: You know, it just doesn't make sense to me.
• 32:36
  Speaker 5: You know, if someone was high on drugs and went
• 32:39
  Speaker 5: and robbed a house, there's mitigating factors there because they
• 32:42
  Speaker 5: wouldn't do it.
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: Potentially in their right mind or in a sober state.
• 32:46
  Speaker 5: So what's the difference seeing a gambler taking money from
• 32:49
  Speaker 5: his employer to gamble with or someone stealing who's high
• 32:53
  Speaker 5: on drugs.
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: To me, there's no difference there whatsoever.
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: Well, I totally agree. And one thing that I've noticed
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: about gamblers, I mean, I guess drug x as well,
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: is that it's very isolating. People spend all their time
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: feeding this addiction. One psychologist in Canada I've spoken, he
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: talks about feeding the baby tiger. At the beginning, it's fun,
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: it's cute, and it's novel, but it gets bigger and
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: bigger and bigger, and it takes up all your time
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: feeding this ravenous tiger. And by the end you've exhausted,
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: you isolated from your family, there's nowhere to go. And
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: often gamblers end up bankrupt, in jail or dead by
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: their own hand. And we're seeing an epidemic of male
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: suicides in this country, and I would hazard a guess
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: that quite a bit of it is related to these
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: sorts of issues.
• 33:41
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, I think suicide is just at an
• 33:44
  Speaker 5: all time high around the world, but here in Australia.
• 33:47
  Speaker 5: I know, I was looking up some statistics of it
• 33:50
  Speaker 5: the other day just through pure interest, and I think
• 33:54
  Speaker 5: there was something like thirty eight hundred suicide deaths last year.
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: And I think I mentioned to.
• 34:00
  Speaker 5: You that I really despise the way that the media
• 34:03
  Speaker 5: talk about suicide or they don't talk about it. If
• 34:07
  Speaker 5: someone commits suicide, you basically are playing a guessing game,
• 34:10
  Speaker 5: reading the article until the very bottom where it says
• 34:13
  Speaker 5: cool lifeline if you've found this disturbing, or if you've
• 34:16
  Speaker 5: know someone that's going through this. And I find that
• 34:19
  Speaker 5: this is about awareness. Unless people know about it, this
• 34:23
  Speaker 5: is where the problem is. And suicide is a byproduct
• 34:27
  Speaker 5: of someone losing all their money and finding no avenue
• 34:30
  Speaker 5: or being cornered into a situation that they can't get
• 34:33
  Speaker 5: out of, and so there's only one way out, and
• 34:36
  Speaker 5: it's the gates of prison or a mental asylum or death,
• 34:41
  Speaker 5: and death is brought about by suicide. And you know,
• 34:44
  Speaker 5: I've lost a family member through suicide. I also know
• 34:50
  Speaker 5: multiple people that have committed suicide, and it never gets
• 34:54
  Speaker 5: any easier to hear about it. But I do feel
• 34:57
  Speaker 5: like there's a major problem with people not willing to
• 35:00
  Speaker 5: talk about it and not willing to advertise the fact
• 35:03
  Speaker 5: that this has happened because of something. You know, I
• 35:06
  Speaker 5: lived near a notorious suicide spot in Sydney, and you know,
• 35:10
  Speaker 5: I see the cop cars coming up and down here
• 35:12
  Speaker 5: looking for bodies all the time. It never gets any
• 35:15
  Speaker 5: easier to see, but it just doesn't surprise me. And
• 35:18
  Speaker 5: I've bumped into people. I bumped into a guy back
• 35:21
  Speaker 5: in February. He was going to jump, and you know,
• 35:24
  Speaker 5: I sat there and chatted to him for about twenty
• 35:26
  Speaker 5: minutes and I called the police and it turned out
• 35:29
  Speaker 5: he tried to do it the previous two days as well,
• 35:31
  Speaker 5: and he'd been seen on some cameras and you know,
• 35:35
  Speaker 5: I never saw him again. But that's just another example of, like,
• 35:40
  Speaker 5: we don't know what people are going through behind closed doors,
• 35:44
  Speaker 5: but if they read an article that can help them
• 35:46
  Speaker 5: understand about some of these things, there's a good chance
• 35:48
  Speaker 5: that that might carry some weight.
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: Because you've been in that dark place between your own
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: perception of yourself and your values and what you've become
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: a lot of people find that reflection awful, and you
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: did some terrible things, you admitted to it. Did you
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: ever get to that dark place where ending it all
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: seemed a convenient way out.
• 36:09
  Speaker 5: Yeah, yep, you know, certainly the first couple of days
• 36:14
  Speaker 5: in Surrey Hill's lock up and I got arrested initially,
• 36:18
  Speaker 5: and then you know, after I got sentenced, I was like,
• 36:21
  Speaker 5: I've got so long to go. I don't know if
• 36:23
  Speaker 5: I really want to do this. I'm not going to
• 36:25
  Speaker 5: have anything when I get out. But my family, you know,
• 36:29
  Speaker 5: I hurt them so much, and that would have been
• 36:32
  Speaker 5: the icing on the cake to do that. And I,
• 36:36
  Speaker 5: you know, I owe my family everything because they stood
• 36:40
  Speaker 5: by me. They didn't have to, and I can assure
• 36:43
  Speaker 5: you I wouldn't have blamed them if they didn't.
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: But ultimately, my relationship with them has never ever been better.
• 36:50
  Speaker 5: And I look back and think of some of those
• 36:52
  Speaker 5: thoughts that I had when I was thinking about doing
• 36:54
  Speaker 5: the worst thing, and I'm just really grateful that I
• 36:58
  Speaker 5: came to my senses, because I told you the other day,
• 37:02
  Speaker 5: I lost a friend earlier this year to suicide, and
• 37:05
  Speaker 5: ultimately I wasn't that surprised by it. But also what
• 37:09
  Speaker 5: it leaves behind is absolute and utter carnage, and I
• 37:14
  Speaker 5: just don't believe that that's a good way to leave
• 37:17
  Speaker 5: a legacy.
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: That's right and you're now in your early forties, you've
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: come out the other side of this.
• 37:25
  Speaker 3: How does life look?
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: Because I reckon, he's still a young man, because like
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: I'm sixty two, so everyone's young in their forties. How
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: do you see the future from here that you may
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: not have been able to see before?
• 37:34
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I consider myself still quite young because I'm an
• 37:38
  Speaker 5: immature baby, if you like, who's only just started working
• 37:42
  Speaker 5: out how to live life properly on the right side
• 37:45
  Speaker 5: of life. I guess you know. I lead a very
• 37:48
  Speaker 5: simple life these days. I have a very beautiful partner
• 37:52
  Speaker 5: who understands and respects a lot of what I've been
• 37:56
  Speaker 5: through and a lot of what I've done.
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: And yeah, I lead a very healthy lifestyle. I don't drink,
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: I don't.
• 38:03
  Speaker 5: Gamble anymore, and I've started to appreciate life for what
• 38:07
  Speaker 5: it is. I mean, I came to Australia and I
• 38:10
  Speaker 5: did the opposite of what the real culture is here,
• 38:13
  Speaker 5: especially where I live, which is fitness and good eating
• 38:16
  Speaker 5: and all that sort of stuff. I did the opposite
• 38:18
  Speaker 5: of that for the first five years that I was here,
• 38:21
  Speaker 5: and so now I'm out the backside of it and
• 38:23
  Speaker 5: doing I guess what a lot of other people in
• 38:26
  Speaker 5: this area would do and stay fit, and I think
• 38:30
  Speaker 5: I'm about to come to the end of my sentence
• 38:32
  Speaker 5: in totality, So I'm looking forward to that because my
• 38:36
  Speaker 5: travel's obviously been limited because of it. You know, I
• 38:38
  Speaker 5: haven't been able to see my family as much as
• 38:40
  Speaker 5: i'd want to. So a lot of that is things
• 38:42
  Speaker 5: that I'm looking forward to doing and that life's about
• 38:45
  Speaker 5: to hopefully afford me.
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: Sure, unlucky in gambling, lucky in life. Ultimately, it's an
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: amazing story. And I'm sure there are people listening here
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: right now who are confronting exactly the same issues that
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: you confronted, and they're doing it in silence. They're doing
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: it and they're concealing things, they're contemplating how to feed
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: the gambling addiction. What would be your message if you
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: could speak straight to their hearts.
• 39:13
  Speaker 5: I think I'd just say, look, I think twice, because
• 39:18
  Speaker 5: whatever you do now, you won't be able to take back.
• 39:21
  Speaker 5: And I can assure you that the other side is
• 39:24
  Speaker 5: not where you want to be. And I think that
• 39:27
  Speaker 5: you know, if it's gambling that's an issue, there's avenues
• 39:31
  Speaker 5: of help. There's plenty of avenues you know, pick up
• 39:34
  Speaker 5: the phone.
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: And I don't think there's enough of this.
• 39:37
  Speaker 5: I know that us as blokes, especially like we never
• 39:40
  Speaker 5: talk about our problems with each other. And you know,
• 39:44
  Speaker 5: I know there's a number of mental health charities that
• 39:46
  Speaker 5: are very helpful and I really am a massive advocate
• 39:49
  Speaker 5: for that because I've seen the power of one person
• 39:53
  Speaker 5: picking up the phone to another work on so many
• 39:56
  Speaker 5: different occasions that I would just say, before you're going
• 39:59
  Speaker 5: to do anything's really stupid, pick up the phone first
• 40:02
  Speaker 5: and speak to someone, and if.
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: You still want to go and do it after that,
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: you know, we can't stop you.
• 40:07
  Speaker 5: But you know, I think if it's going to be
• 40:10
  Speaker 5: the wrong thing that you're going to do, live with
• 40:13
  Speaker 5: the consequences of what you're going to do, because they
• 40:15
  Speaker 5: will come. You know, we don't go through life with
• 40:18
  Speaker 5: no consequences. Eventually it catches up with us. And you
• 40:21
  Speaker 5: know it did for me.
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: It was the making of me, but that might not
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: be the case for everyone.
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: Ed. I really appreciate you sharing your story today. It's
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: taken a fee bit of courage and also some courage
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: to admit your mistakes and move beyond them.
• 40:36
  Speaker 3: I wish you all the success in life. Thank you
• 40:38
  Speaker 3: so much for your time.
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: Thanks Adam, it's been an absolute pleasure.
• 40:41
  Speaker 5: And yeah, I was really overjoyed to be coming on this,
• 40:45
  Speaker 5: so thanks very much for having me.
• 40:48
  Speaker 3: That was Ed Toller. He's learned a very hard lesson.
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: They fall from a very high place to a very
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: low place, and it's something that a lot of families,
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: a lot of individuals are contemplating. In Australia. We are
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: in the grip of a severe epidemic effort. If you
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: have seen yourself in the story we've told today, I
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: want you to look in the description on this podcast.
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: You'll see some lines from the places you can get help.
• 41:11
  Speaker 3: Do it.
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: Don't miss out because your life is your life. Don't
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: let it be destroyed by your addiction. Face up to
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: what you're doing and try to make amends because take
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: it from Ed, five years in jail is a hard
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: way to.
• 41:26
  Speaker 3: Learn those lessons.
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: This has been a real crime with Adam Shanned, thank
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: you for listening.
• 41:44
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• 41:48
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• 41:50
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• 41:54
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• 41:56
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