Latest / Butterfly Days w Tami Jorden / Talk Before A Crisis: What's Your Quality of Life with Maureen Kures

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Talk Before A Crisis: What's Your Quality of Life with Maureen Kures · Butterfly Days w Tami Jorden

• 0:00
  Tami Jorden (00:00:00)
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  What an amazing conversation today with Maureen Kures because what she shares is so direct and usable. It's just an excellent episode, one that I think you're going to want to pass on to other women so we can all sort of get ahead of this. Maureen Kures is a registered nurse with over 40 years of experience in oncology, intensive care, and hospice.Plus, close to my heart, she is a certified end of life doula as I am. She's the founder of Radiant Mourning, the website that you may have heard of. Mourning is spelled M-O-U-R-N-I-N-G, and she helps individuals and families navigate end-of-life planning with clarity, compassion, and confidence. Her work is grounded in what she's witnessed at bedside. When people take the time to plan ahead, it isChanges everything. That's why we're doing this episode. I think we can help you. She guides clients through her signature approach, which is decide, document, and discuss. And then that helps them clarify their values, complete advanced directives, and have meaningful conversations with those who matter most to them through consulting and her Beyond the Will workshops, kind of cool Beyond the Will, get it, and her self-paced courses.Because she keeps the end in mind, Maureen makes end of life planning approachable, empowering, and deeply human. And that's what you're gonna love about this conversation. You can check her out on her website and I will put the links in the show guide.
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  Welcome to my realm. I'm Tami Jorden, and this is Butterfly Days, the podcast that proves you're not past your prime. You're living in it right now because women don't have expiration dates. Butterfly Days is a celebration of the extraordinary potential of Gen X and Boomer women. Throughout history, women have shared wisdom to uplift and empower one another. And you're about to learn hard-earned wisdom and best kept secrets.Tami Jorden (00:02:13)
• 0:03
  From interesting, inspiring women. So if you're ready to embrace your butterfly season with confidence, find joy in the present, and create a legacy that matters, you're in the right place. No more holding back. Let's spread our wings now. Here we go!Tami Jorden (00:02:34)
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  Welcome to my realm. This is Tami Jorden, and you're listening to Butterfly Days. Today, my guest, Maureen Kures, is so fantastic. And what I love about her is that she is able to give us information about things that we need to do, but in a way that's not guilting or pressuring in the wrong direction. Instead, she gives us really solid, usable information.You're gonna wanna share this with somebody else, I am sure of it. Let's meet Maureen. Hi Maureen, welcome to the show.Maureen Kures (00:03:11)
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  Hi Tami.
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  Tami Jorden (00:03:13)
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  I am so glad to have you. I initially found you on LinkedIn, I think. And now I have spread to be following you on Facebook and Instagram as well. I was super excited to realize, I can get these videos even easier if I go over to Instagram. So I've been enjoying that very much. I know that you are certified doula, which I'm super excited about.But would you give us just a little bit of information about how you got to this point?
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  Maureen Kures (00:03:47)
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  I would love to. So I started out I'm a nurse. Started out as an oncology nurse. It was the first job I could get out of school and thought, I'm gonna get out of here as fast as I can because who wants to work around people that are dying? You know, I came from a family that we stuffed our grief, we didn't talk about anything. And I wanted to be a flight nurse. So I thought I'm gonna be here for a year, get my experience and move on. But I fell in love withEnd of life. You know, I found out it wasn't as scary as I thought, that the conversations and the people and just those relationships were so powerful and so important. And it really influenced my nursing career. And then in 2019 I was introduced to this incredible woman, and she told me she was a death doula. And I had been a hospice nurse at one point. And I'm like, a death doula? I've never even heard of that.And that conversation, I'm like, I wanna do that, you know? And that started the the ball rolling and she still a great friend today. We ended up creating a doula training program, she and some others, and yeah, it's taken off from there. But I just you know, I really love working with people. I focus on planning because that's what I had created when I met this death doula, butEvery step of the way and a death doula, an end of life doula. I like to say end of life because we really encompass so much more than actually dying, but we can choose whichever niche we want to go into. And there's so many and that so many that are so important.Tami Jorden (00:05:27)
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  Yeah, yeah, I agree. Doulas have a range of services and aspects of the end of life process that they can support. But I kind of love where you landed and I wonder how that correlates, because you were at bedside for thirty five, forty five years in that right. What drew you to think about what gets us to that bedside? Or what appealed to you, I guess?Maureen Kures (00:05:54)
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  About doulas getting to the bedside?
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  Tami Jorden (00:05:57)
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  Yeah. In other words, like for you, where does that shift happen?
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  Maureen Kures (00:06:01)
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  Well, for me, you know, when I first heard about a death doula and a life doula, you know, for me, I thought, my gosh, what a great collaboration with hospice. That's right where my mind went to because as a hospice nurse, I had an hour to be in, to assess, to, you know, educate, to, you know, readjust medication, to nurture the family. And then I had to be out onto the next person. AndTo find that there was this profession, if you will, which it is a profession, that could fill in all those gaps that could be there for so many different parts of the journey. I just so excited. And I've been asked by hospice directors, especially five years ago, you know, the hospice is much more open to doulas now than they wereWhen I first started shouting it to all my friends that were still working in hospice, like, this is the greatest thing. And they said, our chaplains take care of that. our social workers. I'm like, No, no, they do not. But so I've had a couple of hospice directors saying, How can we integrate doulas in? And I said, right off the bat, life review. I mean, let's start with life review to get a doula in with you. The importance of life review.Tami Jorden (00:07:21)
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  Yeah,
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  Maureen Kures (00:07:24)
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  Is that it helps people look back and take that journey and see, you know, I think when we are all nearing death, at least this is what I saw as a nurse, we want to know that our life had meaning and purpose. And that's what a life review does. It helps us look back and we're like, Hey, my life did have purpose. It did have meaning. It does. And and I'm leaving this world a little bit better than
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  Tami Jorden (00:07:43)
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  Is that
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  Maureen Kures (00:07:53)
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  It was when I entered into it. I've had that experience time over time. So I think that's a great way to just start out with hospice.
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  Tami Jorden (00:08:00)
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  Yeah. This is I think so too. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you have the medical care. And that would be one way that doula work differs from, for instance, hospice, because doula work is non medical care at end of life. And that can encompass a range of things from planning to we ask a lot of questions like, Do you want to be by a window? Would you like a blanket?Maureen Kures (00:08:02)
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  Time to do that.
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  Tami Jorden (00:08:28)
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  Are you somebody who gets cold? There are legacy things that we can help people do. I assume you work with that also.
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  Maureen Kures (00:08:37)
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  Yes, I do. My real focus, like I said, has been on the planning. Yeah. That's what I s when I stepped out of my last nursing job, my friends encouraged me because I'd been an advocate for having someone that could speak on your behalf if you can't for thirty years, you know, because of some experiences as a nurse. And they said, You should start just about that. But I love the legacy and the life review and what do you want to be remembered for.Yes, I do do some of that. You know, you're talking about what we want. Do we want to be near a window? Another big thing is smell. You know, smells. Like I love lavender, but I hate the smell of lavender candles and lotion. So, you know, everyone always thinks lavender, and I'm like, Okay, I've told my family. I love lavender. But no candles and no lotion.Tami Jorden (00:09:24)
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  But no.
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  No candles, man.
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  Maureen Kures (00:09:32)
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  Rose is okay. But you know, thinking of all those little things and you made great point. We are non medical. And the thing with I've had when we were doing our training program, people were like, Well, we have no medical background. I'm like, that's awesome because it's so much easier. Because coming in with a medical background, you have to remember you gotta take that medical hat off and not be trying to come at it from a medical point of view. It'sTami Jorden (00:09:55)
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  Yes.
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  Maureen Kures (00:10:01)
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  purely practical, spiritual, emotional, you know, all of that and not and non medical.Tami Jorden (00:10:09)
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  Yeah. I think about why the conversation is so darn hard because you in your business and in your model, you help people do end of life planning. And it's a lot of it is the written part. You begin with the life review that you're mentioning and then you work onto that. But why do you think it's so darn hard? Actually of two questions. Why do you think it's so darn hard to have the conversation?And why do you think very often the work falls to the oldest daughter? Any thoughts on that?
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  Maureen Kures (00:10:47)
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  I think it's so hard to have the conversation because we're all afraid of dying. You know, it's the one thing, one thing that's gonna happen to all of us.
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  Tami Jorden (00:10:56)
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  ButMaureen Kures (00:10:58)
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  But we don't have to pay our taxes. Hunt us down eventually. But we really don't have to pay our taxes, but we can't get out of this. And so but people are afraid. Like my mom, gosh, I love her. She's gonna be ninety and a couple months, less than two months, and she still doesn't want to talk about that, you know. So it's like prying things out of her, which is okay. But it's fear. It's fear, you know.Tami Jorden (00:11:25)
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  The unknown.
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  Maureen Kures (00:11:26)
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  Fear of the unknown. People ask me a lot, and I don't know if you get this, are you afraid of dying? And I said, you know, I'm not afraid of being dead, to be quite honest. But, you know, sure, it gives me pause. How will it happen? You know, personally, I'd like to go to sleep one night and not wake up, but that's not the norm. I mean, I hate to tell you folks, it's not the norm. So the more we can think about it and prepare.People are afraid, according to The Conversation Project, which if you haven't been there, it's an amazing site. Like 80 some odd percent, maybe it's even ninety, as high as ninety-three, people that are dying, first of all, they know they're dying. Right. That's one thing as a nurse I knew. They knew they were dying, but they don't want to upset their family by talking about it. And then the family doesn't want to upset their person by talking about it. AndTami Jorden (00:12:17)
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  Conversely, yeah.
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  Maureen Kures (00:12:21)
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  The sad thing is is this rich, valuable conversation and you know, connection is lost. So get out there and talk about it and it's scary at first. You know, it is scary to start these conversations, but yeah, there's lots of ways to do it. And I think w I'm the second daughter and my sister actually lives a mile from my mom and I'm always trying to help like I live, you know, two states away.But I don't know why it always I think it just tends to fall to the the daughters more than the sons. Maybe it's just that innate Yeah, historical nurturing. I have three sons, so I'm like, okay guys.
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  Tami Jorden (00:13:03)
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  Historical. Yeah.
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  Tami Jorden (00:13:10)
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  My three sons, yes.
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  Maureen Kures (00:13:12)
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  But so usually I think historically, not today so much, but historically the daughters were the ones that were home more. They were the ones that are giving was you knowTami Jorden (00:13:26)
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  Caregiving was their basic generations that were taught that we could be anything. And while that did include caregiving also, apparently we were supposed to do it all, you know, all previous generations, this was pretty solely the work of women in a community. Yes.
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  Maureen Kures (00:13:45)
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  You know, just look at nursing. Majority women, although now there's so many I love that there's men so many you know, I worked each job, if there was any, it was usually just one. So the fact that men are becoming more involved and and it's all evolving into the caretakers role. But I think it's just, you know, historically the women were the caregivers. And so especially women of like myTami Jorden (00:13:50)
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  Some great guys and nurses.
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  Tami Jorden (00:14:03)
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  Yeah.
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  Maureen Kures (00:14:13)
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  mother's generation. I'll share a quick story. I had been traveling last fall and she had to have a valve replacement. I have a brother and a sister that live in near her. My sister's a teacher and she was traveling her with us. So she had to go back to work. So my mom's like, can you come out? And I said, you know, mom, I will be days away back from a Europe trip. Andrew, my brother, said he would do it.His wife will do it. My other brother that lives in Florida said he would come out. I could never ask them. They all work. Because I don't go to a hospital or a clinic anymore. You see me as not working, which has been a big deal since I started doing other types of work. So I did go. But it was just that, they work. You know, they're the men and your sister's a teacher, so they can't help. Yeah.Tami Jorden (00:14:53)
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  Okay.
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  Tami Jorden (00:15:03)
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  Yeah.
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  Maureen Kures (00:15:10)
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  So it's just you know, I think it's just generational and I think it's good.
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  Tami Jorden (00:15:14)
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  Yeah. And I think, you know, it has been taboo to talk about death for a long, long time, and we're slowly moving past it. Do you have any tips for the woman listening to this who's like, my parents flatly refuse to talk about any end of life planning? And I want to start the discussion.But I'm not sure what's a good way to begin laying some groundwork because I'm gonna assume patience is your friend in this.
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  Maureen Kures (00:15:47)
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  Yes, patience is your friend. I think the best way is if you don't use people in the media. I mean, Dolly Parton just died. That is a great conversation starter. Gosh, mom. You know, I've been thinking a lot about since Dolly Parton died. And it seems like she has some stuff in order. It's made me think, you know, not that I think you're dying anytime soon, butWould you be willing to listen to me on what I would want? And maybe I would like to talk to you about like so I want to make sure if anything happens to you, that we as your kids, your family, we honor you. And so would you be willing to have this conversation? Or I've been thinking a lot about myself since Dolly Parton died. Would you talk to me about what I'm thinking about? And it's an opening. So any person that they can relate to.I think Dolly just across you know, every everyone knew of Dolly Parton and it seems like
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  Tami Jorden (00:16:51)
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  It's a nice touch point. Yeah. Yeah.
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  Maureen Kures (00:16:53)
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  Yeah. So but it could be that, hey, my friend's mom just had a pretty big heart attack or my friend's dad had a massive stroke and now he's this. You know, would you be willing to talk to me if this were ever to happen to you? What? And if they say no, that's okay.
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  Tami Jorden (00:17:08)
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  [crosstalk]
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  Tami Jorden (00:17:12)
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  Yes, I mean that's your answer. Try again later. My friend Kirsten Mau, who has a great podcast called Who Gets the China? And it's about, you know, as your parents age, how to navigate all the things. One of her great tips, which I love and it marries perfectly with what you're saying, is you could go in with the Dolly Parton or the local lead. You could say, I'm thinking about this for me. But she said you can also say,When it starts to get into it and they're a little giving you a little bit of pushback, this would really help me. If I know you don't want me to worry. And it would really reduce my anxiety if I just knew what you wanted, so that in honoring that, I could feel like I was taking care of you.
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  Maureen Kures (00:18:02)
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  That is really a great
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  Tami Jorden (00:18:04)
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  [crosstalk] Yes.
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  Maureen Kures (00:18:06)
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  Yes. I've tried that with my mom. When she was diagnosed with COVID, I'm like, Okay, mom, now you know, back inTami Jorden (00:18:14)
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  Now's your moment. Yeah. Mom Did it go anywhere? What's that? Did it go anywh did it go anywhere? I have to know.Maureen Kures (00:18:21)
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  Yes, you know, only because I I was her decision ma I am actually I Yeah change it to my brother who's local a as the first, I'm now the second. But I said, you know, I called her, I said, Five hours from now you might not be breathing. We just don't know. And yeah, I said, I need to know what to do with you. So I gave her three scenarios and I just told her full everything you want to try, but not to be intubated.Tami Jorden (00:18:45)
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  What would you want?
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  Maureen Kures (00:18:51)
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  You want everything but not to be intubated or you want comfort only. And I said, I want you to think about that. I'm gonna call you in one hour, but I said, Mom, I can't serve you if I don't know what you want. And so she called me back like five minutes later, comfort only, you know. And that was the moment and I but she still still to this day doesn't really like to talk about it. But at least we all know comfort only andTami Jorden (00:19:22)
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  Yeah. You have your marching orders. So actually this is good because there's probably a woman listening here and thinking, Well, I don't know what kinds of questions I should be asking. Give us give us a l your short list of what kinds of things that you help people realize they need to be asking.
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  Maureen Kures (00:19:41)
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  Well, I think just starting with we'll just keep saying mom or dad or honey, you know, what is quality of life to you? What is living a good day? You know, what makes a day worth living to you? And start the conversation that way. because then you can find out, okay, so and this should be, you know, over time. It's not something you sit down and you're gonna get all the answers, especially if you're not.Tami Jorden (00:20:09)
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  Yeah.
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  Maureen Kures (00:20:11)
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  But, you know, for the first conversation, you know, I'd really like to know what do you think is quality of life for you? And what brings you joy and makes life worth living? Then the next conversation could be, Mom, what's a good day for you? You know, as you're aging, what's a good day? What makes it a good day? And then, mom, how would you envision your life changing to keep it with quality, to make sure you're having good days?
• 1:37
  And start the conversation there. Well, would being on a ventilator, if need be, would that be quality of life and a good day for you? Or would and that's okay. Like I know many people that they want to try. And it's like, okay, mom, if you go ha would have to be put on a ventilator, what happens if you go downhill? What do you want us to do?Or like after how many days, if you're not getting better and you're getting worse, would you want us to keep you on the ventilator or not? Just start peppering it with little things, but it could just be a lot of conversation about quality of life, living well, a good day to begin with. And then as they get more comfortable, start asking some of the more in depth questions. And you need no medical background to ask these questions. It's just like really we all get to choose what's living well.Tami Jorden (00:21:36)
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  Yeah, and I think asking about, you know, if you could well, there's the breathing tube issue, there's the feeding tube issue. There are people who if I can't eat, it's a sign that I need to head out. And there are other people who are like, Are you kidding? Hook me up with that. And it's good to understand that. You talked about another thing I think that's really important about I know.I think it's that aspect of care versus cure. If we cannot get you back out of the hospital once you go in for this, or if we can do this treatment but it won't cure you, if you would lose your ability to shower, toilet, these things, how do you want us to look at that for you? Like therePeople don't imagine that. They just think, I don't want to die, I don't want to die. But what I love in what you've said is you said what is quality of life for you because not wanting to die and wanting to stay in a non quality of life position are two different questions.Maureen Kures (00:22:51)
• 1:39
  Totally different questions. And you know, I'll use an example. And this was a man I took care of years ago. He was fine. Like quality of life for him was his his cancer was progressing. And it got to the point where he had to be transferred from the bed to his recliner. And then pretty much only the bed. And I followed I ended up following him in hospice. I had been with him in the hospital. And then
• 1:40
  But those were good days for him. He thought that was great because he loved sports. And as long as he could watch his favorite sports on TV, and you know, back in the day, ESPN came into power and twenty-four-seven sports and he was happy as a clam. And yeah, you know, and that was good and that made life worth living for him. Now my uncle, he was the exact opposite. I was his decision maker and he
• 1:41
  used very I mean very specifically wanted to be completely independent, live independently, and we had had a lot of c conversations about what if, but he didn't want to be watching. He wanted to be playing. He wanted to be playing golf. He wanted to be out there participating in life. And so two men that were ended up being about the same age when they died, but very different. Yeah. SoTami Jorden (00:24:11)
• 1:42
  Yeah.Maureen Kures (00:24:13)
• 1:43
  We all get to choose what quality of life is for us. So just because I might disagree with my mom, that doesn't make it wrong. You know, she's the one that gets to choose what is acceptable and not acceptable for her.
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  Tami Jorden (00:24:27)
• 1:45
  Yeah, and I love that you are creating frameworks for people to have these conversations, to think about them for themselves, which sort of leads me to another question about this. Like we're talking about how hard it is to get your parents to do it, but I sometimes find that we plan for our parents, but then we put it off for ourselves.Maureen Kures (00:24:50)
• 1:46
  Mm-hmm. You know, yes, people ask me, when should we start doing this? And I said, well, actually when you turn 18. Or when you turn 18 or 10. You know, 18-year-olds, once kids become legal adults, as a parent, we have no access overall to what's happening with them. Yeah. You send your kids off to college and something happens and you can't get information. I've had this happen withTami Jorden (00:25:00)
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  For today.
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  Maureen Kures (00:25:20)
• 1:49
  a couple of different people I know, they couldn't get information until they got there. You know, or and but today is the day. So like talking about advanced directives, the healthcare power attorney and living well portion of the plans, those are for the what ifs in life. You know, I could walk out, get in my car, get in a major accident and not be able to make decisions for myself. So I you know, hopefully I'mnot quite ready to have a heart attack or stroke, but it happens of any age. So those are the what ifs in life. What if I have a major heart attack? What if I have a stroke? Can't what if I'm in an accident and can't make decisions for myself? Do I have a plan in place? And that's sort of what drew me to doing this work is because all of a sudden my kids were home at the it was towards the end of summer and they were all heading back to college and grad school. And I'm like, hey, I want to have this conversation becauseTami Jorden (00:25:51)
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  Stroke, yeah.
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  Maureen Kures (00:26:17)
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  My sons are best friends and I did not want them fighting and disagreeing and having a fractured relationship, which as a nurse I saw over and over again at the bedside, especially when it was in the intensive care unit where so many what ifs and because no one had ever made decisions, they end up ended up. But I said, I want you to know directly from me and you know, what if your dad and I are in an accident together and neither of us can make decisions for ourselves?I want you to know why we've chosen who we chose and this and that. I want you to think about the lamp in the corner, who wants it so you don't fight over that, all these things. And it was a greatTami Jorden (00:26:57)
• 1:53
  I bet the boys love that.
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  Maureen Kures (00:26:59)
• 1:55
  Well, at first I thought I'd get pushback, especially from my youngest son. He doesn't like talking about any of this stuff, but he's very introspective. And two of his friends had been in a big accident right after they graduated from high school and like this angel paramedics told their parents an angel was surrounding this smashed up world as they walked away from it. But he said it could have been so different. Maybe we should have this conversation. And it was such a rich, powerful conversation. We laughed a lot. I cried. You know, we talked about realYeah. And I thought this is what I want other families to have.
• 1:56
  Tami Jorden (00:27:34)
• 1:57
  Yes. It's an act of love to have that conversation. We don't always realize it. You said something really good because we are primarily speaking with women born between I think it's 1955 and 1980. And that's midlife now. And this is the time to think about your plans for sure.And you mentioned two things. You mentioned an advanced directive and I think a will, is that correct? Do you wanna Living Will, there we go. Thank you.
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  Maureen Kures (00:28:07)
• 1:59
  The advance directive has the power of attorney and the living will. But yes, everyone should have a will.
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  Tami Jorden (00:28:13)
• 2:01
  Can you line that out? Because there are people that don't know what those three documents are or why they should have them. What do you think?
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  Maureen Kures (00:28:21)
• 2:03
  Will is for your estate. Yeah. The will is legal. You need an attorney to do that. There are free options property and your assets and how to distributed. And the advanced directive consists of the power of attorney for health care document. That's who your behalf if you cannot. So it's you'll hearTami Jorden (00:28:28)
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  For property primarily.
• 2:05
  Tami Jorden (00:28:42)
• 2:06
  Deal.
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  Maureen Kures (00:28:46)
• 2:08
  People called healthcare decision maker, healthcare surrogate, healthcare proxy, there's all different words. But the documents called the power of attorney for healthcare. And then, you know, who will make decisions on your behalf if you cannot? That's what I've been outspoken about for 30 plus years, because seeing people that I thought, I'm sure you didn't want to end up this way, but you had no one. And there's a next of kin hierarchy, it's still active in most states. Like if
• 2:09
  one woman I took care of, she did not have a spouse. She was sixty three. She was at had just played tennis that morning. She had four kids. This is what made me just shout it from the rooftops to everyone I knew at the time. You could go to some office supply store and for forty five dollars buy this kit. But her kids disagreed on what to do with her and sh declaredTami Jorden (00:29:39)
• 2:10
  goodness. Brain death brain death. Yeah.
• 2:11
  Maureen Kures (00:29:42)
• 2:12
  And I think thirty years later, I'm sure that family's still as fractured as they were in that hospital.
• 2:13
  Tami Jorden (00:29:48)
• 2:14
  Damage that that can do to a family.
• 2:15
  Maureen Kures (00:29:52)
• 2:16
  a family. I mean, they fought so badly 'cause all four of them, if you have if you don't have a spouse and you have children, all of them have to agree. One disagrees with what to do, you know, and like this family, two of them wanted to follow the doctor's recommendation to take her off life support. Right. And two of them refused. So she was kept on life support. AndTami Jorden (00:30:04)
• 2:17
  in Washington.
• 2:18
  Maureen Kures (00:30:20)
• 2:19
  You know, it's also if you have a blended family, it's so important to have this spelled out. if you are a child and your parents are still both living, but you might not have a good relationship. Your parents have equal say in what decisions are made. And so there's that health care power attorney. And you should have a primary.Tami Jorden (00:30:31)
• 2:20
  [crosstalk]Maureen Kures (00:30:47)
• 2:21
  person and then an alternate. And that's say, you know, my husband's my decision maker, which would have legally been the next of kin. But let's say we're driving along, we're in an accident and God forbid he's [inaudible]. Something happens. Yeah, we need someone, then this the alternate. And some people even have a second alternate. And then the living will part of it, the third part. So the will that has to be done by an attorney, the advanced directive with the healthcareTami Jorden (00:30:59)
• 2:22
  Yeah.
• 2:23
  Tami Jorden (00:31:17)
• 2:24
  AD.
• 2:25
  Maureen Kures (00:31:17)
• 2:26
  decision maker, healthcare power of attorney. And then the living will portion is what you would want if this then that. You know, what would you want if you stopped breathing, your heart stopped? You know, what kind of care would you want? It goes there's many different forms out there. They're all essentially the same. And people can just go online and type in, I would say Google but, you know, put it in a chat or whatever, healthcare advanced directive for Washington State [inaudible].Tami Jorden (00:31:46)
• 2:27
  There you go. Wherever you are.
• 2:28
  Maureen Kures (00:31:47)
• 2:29
  or Vermont, you know, and it'll be a specific one. The legal part of that, if as long as they're notarized or witnessed by two people, the advanced directive, the legal part of it is who you name as your decision makers. That is legally binding. You can change it at any time. That's the beauty of that. You don't have to go to an attorney. You can just pull up a new one and every time you want toTami Jorden (00:32:14)
• 2:30
  Again.
• 2:31
  Maureen Kures (00:32:15)
• 2:32
  And then the living will is the roadmap you give your family or those who matter most or whoever you've chosen to make the decisions for you. It's best to share that though with everyone that matters most to you because it impacts many more than just the decision making.
• 2:33
  Tami Jorden (00:32:32)
• 2:34
  And because we have, you know, email and digital capacity, you can share that with all three boys in your case, in my case, two girls.Maureen Kures (00:32:43)
• 2:35
  And you know, not just my boys, my siblings, my mom. You know, I I I made copies and to to everyone, you know, my you'll be asked when you go to a hospital if you are admitted for any reason do you have advanced directives?Tami Jorden (00:33:01)
• 2:36
  Right. Or even surgeries in our state.
• 2:37
  Maureen Kures (00:33:03)
• 2:38
  Surgery. Yeah. I was going in for surgery. Do you have an advanced directive? I said, Yes, I do. I just updated it. So I gave them my updated form and and then that but you know, the the pre op nurse, she was going through everything. She's like, Well, I hate to ask you this, but I have to. Do you have an advanced directive? I said, Yes, I do. And actually may ask why you hate to ask it. Well, you know, it's just not.People don't like to think about that. And I said, Well, actually I'd like to ask you to reframe that because it's so important. I want my doctors to know before I go into surgery. Yeah. If something happened, what I would want. So that's the guide you give. And that's so important. But getting all those documents together and then bringing them to your family. I always encourage people to have a family meeting. Say, you want to come over for pizza and beer, cake and coffee, whatever. Whatever's your deal. Will you come and let me share these with you?Tami Jorden (00:33:40)
• 2:39
  Love that.
• 2:40
  Maureen Kures (00:33:59)
• 2:41
  And like I told my boys, I want you to hear from me, not and you know, not from anyone else, or I don't want you guys this is what happens so often. They're at the bedside trying to figure out what would mom have wanted. my gosh. And then they disagree and or are we giving up too soon? Did we do this? You know, and then the regret and the guilt and the stress and itTami Jorden (00:34:22)
• 2:42
  And you don't want that for your kids, you know? You have pointed out something though that you and I see clearly because of our experience in hospice and with the doula work. But if you haven't had this happen, it can catch you off guard. So we should be clear about it to the listeners. If you do not have conversations about this and God help you,should end up in the sort of situations that she's talking about. And I have a friend who went to a doctor's appointment, left, and on the way back home had a stroke. Luckily he had a clean family situation, but just to not just like the woman who went out to play tennis, next thing you know, she has a medical situation. The problem with not having any known choices is that family and friendsloved ones around you will have to make this choice, which I'm sure you've you go, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, they have to make this choice at crunch time. You're injured. There's not time to process this and get over it. The timing of when it happens and you're that moment we are in our amygdala. We're in trauma brain. This bad thing has happened and now we need to make thePerfect choice that none of us is going to regret. You, the patient, or me, the surviving, possibly surviving, you know, family member. The encouragement to take care of this is because if you put this off, you will still be dealing with the same issue potentially, but in a far less comfortable point in time.
• 2:43
  Maureen Kures (00:36:09)
• 2:44
  Yes. And you know, I think we all want things to be as easy as they can for our family, just in general, but we don't think about what we put them through when they have to when they have no idea what we would want. Time to share one more story. A woman that I l loved dearly, she's a dear friend, ended up with stage four metastatic lung cancer.Tami Jorden (00:36:28)
• 2:45
  Right. Yes, please.
• 2:46
  Maureen Kures (00:36:37)
• 2:47
  in her mid-sixties. And as her disease progressed, she had done everything. She and her husband, we had had many, many conversations, but he wanted her to try everything. He was older than her, but well, she lived two and a half years. We never expected her to live that long. Most of it with good quality. But he called me because he had to rush her to the emergency room. And she could never actually sign the documents.And she couldn't just couldn't and we had conversations about that. And she just said, I don't want to upset my husband too much. So the doctor said she won't survive without being put on a breathing tube. And he said, Yes, do it. Which was her one wish never to go on.
• 2:48
  Tami Jorden (00:37:23)
• 2:49
  Right.
• 2:50
  Tami Jorden (00:37:29)
• 2:51
  You got you don't know how many times I hear this exact
• 2:52
  Maureen Kures (00:37:33)
• 2:53
  And so, you know, even though so then he started calling me and and he's like, I had to do everything. I had to do everything and he said, Do you think I did the wrong thing? You know, you did what you felt was right. And I said, How long do you think you will how long do you want to see before whether it's working or not?Tami Jorden (00:37:58)
• 2:54
  Yes and good for
• 2:55
  Maureen Kures (00:37:59)
• 2:56
  And kept saying, Well, I said, Did she tell you she wanted to be on this? I knew not because I'd been with her. Well, no, she didn't. But, you know, she did tell some people. And I said, Well, who did she tell that she wanted this? You know, I'm supportive of you doing what you needed to do. I really am. But at what point, you know, do you wanna say enough's enough? AndWell people s came out and they told me. I said, Are they in her inner circle? Was it her closest people? Was it well no, it was people that knew her peripherally and he just you know, and this is the th
• 2:57
  Tami Jorden (00:38:35)
• 2:58
  Bless his heart. Yeah.
• 2:59
  Maureen Kures (00:38:39)
• 3:00
  A weekend she was deteriorating and they were he was encouraged to take her off the ventilator. And that is a very painful decision that has to be made. He is still living with guilt and regret and, you know, did I did the wrong thing? And I said, No, you didn't. You did what was right for you at the moment. And the one thing I know to be true in this is thatShe could have told him more specifically. She could have had it written out. She could have but she didn't. And she knew that and she and I talked about this was a consequence because, you know, he had a hard time even acknowledging that she had this terminal illness. So she was well aware that this might happen. And so I'm always trying to reassure him that it's okay. You did what you needed to do. But if you truly don't want that to happen to you.Be proactive and have these conversations and have them often, not often, but if as life changes, as you get that life limiting diagnosis or your chronic illness, or you know, I told my kids, Hey, you're we're gonna have these meetings every five years until you die by seventy five.Tami Jorden (00:39:52)
• 3:01
  The update until we croak.
• 3:02
  Maureen Kures (00:39:54)
• 3:03
  And you know, the funny thing is, five years later, it was the summer, five years, a couple of my sons called and said, Hey, we're all gonna be home at the holidays this year. We're having another one of those meetings. And I'm like, I totally forgot. Yes, we are.Tami Jorden (00:40:11)
• 3:04
  That as a matter of fact, yeah.
• 3:05
  Maureen Kures (00:40:13)
• 3:06
  Yeah. So there is value and importance to to this. But it takes a lot of to start these conversations. And it takes a lot of courage to learn about what's out there. Like that there's this wonderful thing called death doulas or end of life doulas and not to be afraid of hospice and palliative care and all this. So I could talk forever, soTami Jorden (00:40:18)
• 3:07
  Love to.
• 3:08
  Tami Jorden (00:40:31)
• 3:09
  Not to be afraid.
• 3:10
  Well, and I will I will have you come back and talk about hospice. I would love to do so. You have called your company Radiant Mourning, M-O-U-R-N-I-N-G, for people who are listening and not looking. Where's the Radiance? Tell us about that name.Maureen Kures (00:40:53)
• 3:11
  You know, I when I was starting my business, I really you know, death can be so dark and people are afraid of it because of the darkness and the heaviness of it and everything. But one of the things I had learned throughout my career is that it is such a sacred time. And when I think of sacred, I think of, you know, just the radiant joy that can be come in these sacred moments.And that there can be joy with the grief. There can be peace. And and it was my friend that said she didn't come up with Radiant Mourning, but she said it's like you should use radiant or light or something. Yeah. I just said, Yeah, I want it to be light and shine light and bring light to the the conversation. And ITami Jorden (00:41:42)
• 3:12
  Yeah, to the Valley of the Shadow.
• 3:13
  Maureen Kures (00:41:44)
• 3:14
  Yeah. And the mourning, you know, we're all gonna grieve and mourn and no matter what. But if we have these candid conversations and the courageous conversations and we know we can change we don't get to plan perfectly because life just isn't that way. You know, we can plan all we want, but it might not be exactly but at least those that matter most to you know what matters most to you so they can honor it as best they can.Tami Jorden (00:42:05)
• 3:15
  We
• 3:16
  Maureen Kures (00:42:14)
• 3:17
  And so I thought that just gives us the ability to grieve and not have to worry about all like my friend's husband who's worried that he that he did the wrong thing and is filled with regret. And so instead of just being able to grieve fully, we have all this other complicated grief on top of theTami Jorden (00:42:36)
• 3:18
  Yeah. Which is you don't have to. I don't know about you because I was gonna ask you how has living this close to death changed you? Because I know that I have a fairly robust circle of friends and we talk all the time about what would you want or you know, that's incredible. Have you heard about this new composting thing after people are gone orI've tried to in my friend group at least to normalize conversations about end of life because we're all going to get there. There's a hundred percent mortality rate on earth. So why not be a part of the discussion and you know get some ease in that? Do you think that living this close to death for all these decades, how's that changed you?Maureen Kures (00:43:28)
• 3:19
  It's made me appreciate life more and to embrace life more and to you know, an oncologist that I worked with that we all called him our Fresno dad. That's my first job was in Fresno, California. But my friend wanted me to be a traveling nurse that I was saying, you know, and he said a girl that I'd gone to college with died when she was twenty three. She was he was her doctor and he said, You know, you never thought college friend, she never thoughtShe would die at 23. He said, Go out and embrace every opportunity that's within your means. And I've always tried to live that way because we don't know. And that doesn't mean it's morbid. It's just like, let's live life to the fullest, to the best of our ability while we have it. Because naturally, as we age, we're going to, you know, over time not be able to do what we do want to do. And I used to see everyone put off things for retirement, only they ended up.
• 3:20
  It's my patients in an oncology unit.
• 3:21
  Tami Jorden (00:44:29)
• 3:22
  Yes. You know.
• 3:23
  Maureen Kures (00:44:32)
• 3:24
  Or something. And and so I think that by talking about it, it allows us to live freer. And I do, you know, my friends they all know that we're gonna have conversations. It's funny, I'm in a gardening I was in a gardening group where we'd go work in each other's yards. And I was really into like when I first heard of human composting, I thought, Ooh, that's sort of creepy. And then I thought, Wait, I'm a huge composter, why do I think it's creepy? Yeah, now I think it's the best thing ever.Yeah, but so we all had these great conversations around what we thought of composting, you know, bodies and stuff.
• 3:25
  Tami Jorden (00:45:06)
• 3:26
  Yeah. Yeah. Well, it really le it I was gonna say it's fertile ground for conversation. [laughter] Yes it is. But I think I love what you're saying because one of the, you know, pillars of what I do here at Butterfly Days is to encourage people to have memento mori mindset. And that's the Latin for remember you are mortal. And if you can allow for that and not run away from it.It's like this door that once you walk through it, it's a better place. You're stronger, you're more able to just do you, you know? And to love what does happen. You don't fold.
• 3:27
  Maureen Kures (00:45:43)
• 3:28
  Yes.
• 3:29
  Maureen Kures (00:45:48)
• 3:30
  Yeah, when people get their planning done, they're like, my gosh, I feel so much lighter. Like I know if anything happens, I'm covered. Yeah. So it's like just
• 3:31
  Tami Jorden (00:45:57)
• 3:32
  Yeah.
• 3:33
  And the converse that if anything happens, I'm covered, but then the converse of that, if your people do it, you're like, okay, if something happens, I'm not gonna be terrified. How can I best love you? Because it really is an act of love to take that burden off of the people who mean something to you up front. You know what, in thinking of that, as we begin our wrap up here.If the listener does one thing this week, maybe two, what would you recommend?
• 3:34
  Maureen Kures (00:46:36)
• 3:35
  I would recommend that they search for advanced directives for their state. And then look at the form and see, you know, I like organization PrepareForYourCare.org. You can type it in and click on the button, drop down button for your state and it pulls up an advanced directive and you can start reading over andThinking, okay, who would I want to make my decision for me? So many people think, my spouse. Spouse would be the worst because like my friend's husband, it was way too emotional for him. And but if you know, who would I want? Who could I? And how would I approach this? And and then look at the questions and think, should I st what can I do to find out information about how to make these decisions? That's it. Just pull it up and look at it.Tami Jorden (00:47:27)
• 3:36
  That is brilliant.
• 3:37
  Tami Jorden (00:47:31)
• 3:38
  PrepareForYourCare.org. I love that. I will put it into the show notes. And I wanted to let people know and I've told them at the beginning of this where you work, but they can find you at radiantmourning.com. Mourning is spelled with a U because of what it is. And but they can also find you on social media, Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn.Maureen Kures (00:47:57)
• 3:39
  And TikTok.
• 3:40
  Tami Jorden (00:47:58)
• 3:41
  stop it. Fancy. Wow. Super super hip. Hashtag hip, right? Yeah. I love that. I love that. And you had a little something, something you wanted to share with us. What about the things that first of all, feel free to tell us exactly what you offer so that folks listening know. But then tell us what else you have.Maureen Kures (00:48:21)
• 3:42
  Well, I do work with people one on one to help get this done. And I've also created a online workshop where it's over the course of three weeks focuses this focuses really on the advanced directives. I call it Beyond the Will. Everything beyond the will. So how to navigate this, how to get you know, make these decisions. We go deep into that and to get it all completed so thatYou just have to take it down to the UPS store to get notarized or to pay for the t it was ten dollars, who knows with prices of things now. Or get two friends to witness it, to review it and witness it so you can get it done. And then, you know, part of that is how to have the conversations with your family and with those people that matter. So that's all wrapped into a three week, once a week for 90 minutes. And I have coming up online. You can get people.
• 3:43
  Anywhere. And that starts in my next one's in in November.
• 3:44
  Tami Jorden (00:49:25)
• 3:45
  So we've got folks have time to run out and get yourself signed up.
• 3:46
  Maureen Kures (00:49:29)
• 3:47
  I do have a discount for your people. BUTTERFLY100 [verify code]. Mentioned that in the discount little offer section, you could get it a hundred dollars off.
• 3:48
  Tami Jorden (00:49:32)
• 3:49
  We love it, does it? Butterfly.
• 3:50
  Tami Jorden (00:49:43)
• 3:51
  that is fantastic. I love this and I love the idea that we can encourage women in midlife, that we can have a level of control. Medicine and the medical world, if you do not work in it, is its own culture, is its own rules if you've ever been in a hospital. And you don't want to be there figuring out such important complex choices that we're talking about.Maureen, I'm so glad that you are out there, that you're helping people, that you're speaking up. And I I just want you to know I love your work and I'm rooting for you. I'm just like, girl thank you.
• 3:52
  Maureen Kures (00:50:24)
• 3:53
  Yeah, you know, we just need more people doing this.Tami Jorden (00:50:29)
• 3:54
  Yeah. Yeah. It's okay to talk about it. It doesn't get worse. Yeah, you're not gonna know exactly what's gonna happen, but it takes so much of the charge out just to have the conversations. And I would encourage people to follow you on TikTok and stuff or Facebook because hearing your voice come up and seeing your videos, I think that's just a small tool that we can use to begin to get ourselves comfortable with it. This is midlife.Game on, we need to stop playing silly games. It's over. Silly games are done. We're done with
• 3:55
  Maureen Kures (00:51:04)
• 3:56
  Yeah. And usually it is the women driving these conversations that like you said, the daughters that are taking care of the situation. And so often we still have our kids at home and we're trying to deal on both sides. So take care of yourself, women.
• 3:57
  Tami Jorden (00:51:19)
• 3:58
  Yeah. Sandwich generation. I love that. Take care of yourself. Remember that Maureen said take care of yourself. Thank you for joining us today.
• 3:59
  Maureen Kures (00:51:28)
• 4:00
  Thank you for having me.
• 4:01
  Tami Jorden (00:51:33)
• 4:02
  I'm so grateful you listened to this episode. I hope it was a real value to you. If there's a sister in your life who needs this message, please share it. Just like women have done to lift each other up over the centuries and across cultures. Women lifting each other is so important. It's why I do this work. And to avoid FOMO and keep up leveling your own life, make sure you don't miss the next episode.You may be losing hormones, but your life has given you powerful perspective. And I believe you have something to give that no one else does, that the world needs. So remember, I'm rooting for you. Let's go.