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You Are Not Your Trauma with Robyn D. Walser, PhD and Darrah Westrup, PhD · The Trauma Therapist

0:00
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Trauma THEAPIS podcast. My name is go Macpherson.
0:04
Speaker 1: I interview incredible people who dedicated their lives to helping
0:07
Speaker 1: those who have been impacted by trauma. Here we go,
0:11
Speaker 1: so five four, three, two and one, our folks, welcome
0:16
Speaker 1: back to the podcast. Very excited to have as my
0:18
Speaker 1: guests today Robin Walzer and Dara Westrup. Welcome ladies.
0:24
Speaker 2: Thank you for having us.
0:26
Speaker 1: Yeah you all right? So. Doctor Walser is a clinical psychologist, educator,
0:31
Speaker 1: and internationally recognized expert in trauma and acceptance commitment therapy,
0:36
Speaker 1: serving as assistant clinical professor at UC Berkeley, director of
0:39
Speaker 1: Research at Bay Area Trauma Recovery, and staff member at
0:42
Speaker 1: the National Center for PTSD. Doctor Darre Westrup is a
0:46
Speaker 1: clinical psychologist and act expert based in Durango, Colorado, known
0:51
Speaker 1: for her work with complex trauma, international training workshops, and
0:55
Speaker 1: leadership roles at the VA and Palo Alto Women's Mental
0:58
Speaker 1: Health and Trauma pros. Welcome ladies. Before we get going,
1:03
Speaker 1: share with the listeners where you're from originally and where
1:06
Speaker 1: you are currently. Darra, let's start with you Originally.
1:09
Speaker 3: I'm from Greeley, Colorado. I spent quite a bit of
1:13
Speaker 3: time in the Bay Area hanging out with Robin, and
1:17
Speaker 3: now I'm in a mountaintown called Durango, Colorado, southwestern Colorado.
1:22
Speaker 1: Okay.
1:24
Speaker 4: I am originally from a little, tiny, teeny tiny place
1:28
Speaker 4: called Liman, Wyoming. That's where I spent my formative years.
1:32
Speaker 4: I don't recommend anybody to go there. And I now
1:38
Speaker 4: live in the Bay Area. So I'm near San Francisco.
1:42
Speaker 1: Okay, So let's start out just briefly. How did you
1:45
Speaker 1: two meet?
1:48
Speaker 3: Oh, that's so fun. It's been a long time. It's
1:51
Speaker 3: like twenty five years or something. So I was an
1:56
Speaker 3: intern at Palo Alto BA Pale Alto Healthcare System and
2:00
Speaker 3: after that was offered a position to come and direct
2:03
Speaker 3: the women's Trauma Recovery program. And I had been I
2:07
Speaker 3: had done a dissertation that was related to ACT and
2:11
Speaker 3: my colleagues knew that I was interested, and everywhere I went,
2:14
Speaker 3: I heard, you need to meet Robin Waalzer, you need
2:17
Speaker 3: to meet Robin Walzer. And I did finally meet Robin
2:22
Speaker 3: Waalzer and happily found a colleague who was very, very
2:28
Speaker 3: masterful in the therapy that I was very passionate about,
2:31
Speaker 3: and together we brought ACT into our residential treatment program
2:35
Speaker 3: for women. It was the first time it had ever
2:37
Speaker 3: been in a residential program, and it was incredibly exciting
2:41
Speaker 3: and rich, rewarding work, and we spent about eight years
2:45
Speaker 3: doing that, Robin, I think, as well as doing after
2:48
Speaker 3: group follow up booster groups for years.
2:53
Speaker 1: Why were people telling you you've got to meet Robin.
2:56
Speaker 1: Was it because you're at the commonality, the shared experience interest,
3:00
Speaker 1: or what?
3:01
Speaker 3: Well? I think it was the universe, but I think
3:06
Speaker 3: it was because they knew that she was experienced an
3:11
Speaker 3: acceptance of commitment therapy. I'll let Robin speak to herself
3:15
Speaker 3: her own experience there in coming up with Steve Hayes's lab,
3:18
Speaker 3: and so she was well known for that. And then
3:21
Speaker 3: when they heard me talking about ACT and what I
3:23
Speaker 3: thought it could do and my interest in bringing it
3:27
Speaker 3: into our work, it seemed a natural thing that needed
3:31
Speaker 3: to happen, and.
3:32
Speaker 1: They were right, awesome, Robin, what would you add there?
3:36
Speaker 4: Oh, well, it was really fun to hear about Dara
3:39
Speaker 4: and that she was interested in acting, So of course
3:43
Speaker 4: I was like, oh, a fellow traveler, a fellow traveler,
3:47
Speaker 4: And I think when we first met we just hit
3:50
Speaker 4: it off right away, like we started talking about how
3:54
Speaker 4: we can treat trauma with ACT. We were both super
3:57
Speaker 4: interested and he's developed to a really strong friendship that's
4:03
Speaker 4: been now on for since twenty two thousand and we've
4:08
Speaker 4: written together, and we've worked together, we've done trainings together,
4:12
Speaker 4: we've traveled together and survived and that's a good sign.
4:16
Speaker 1: And so amazing.
4:18
Speaker 4: Yeah, so a long time friendship and excellent collaboration and
4:24
Speaker 4: putting together at for trauma.
4:26
Speaker 3: Well, I think you should add travel to places like
4:29
Speaker 3: and did trainings in South Africa and Hong Kong and
4:33
Speaker 3: zen Zabars, So not just travel but travel.
4:37
Speaker 1: Right right, Wow, like wow, travel, that's inspiring me. All right,
4:41
Speaker 1: So as you're talking, my mind is like going, there's
4:44
Speaker 1: so many things to talk about. But if we can,
4:49
Speaker 1: I want to kind of start macro and kind of
4:53
Speaker 1: dial in. But I'm really curious about both of your
4:59
Speaker 1: int in trauma and why how did you get interested
5:05
Speaker 1: in that?
5:06
Speaker 3: Uh?
5:08
Speaker 1: Go please?
5:09
Speaker 3: Okay, I have two answers, if you'll bear with me.
5:15
Speaker 3: I'll try not to talk too long here, But one
5:18
Speaker 3: is I feel as though a path opened in front
5:21
Speaker 3: of me and I just kept stepping into it. I
5:24
Speaker 3: went into a program and heard about an excellent vertical
5:27
Speaker 3: training team vertical meaning students from every single level of
5:32
Speaker 3: the program we're participating in. So you could have that
5:36
Speaker 3: sort of mentorship and getting really solid treatment on how
5:41
Speaker 3: to work with trauma and PTSD getting a very nice
5:45
Speaker 3: internship that also had very strong rotations in that area,
5:50
Speaker 3: and then having a job opportunity and stepping into it.
5:54
Speaker 3: So that's the surface answer.
5:57
Speaker 1: Okay, so PTSD, So was this at the VA. Yeah,
6:04
Speaker 1: so we're talking about trauma related or trauma related to combat,
6:09
Speaker 1: et cetera.
6:10
Speaker 3: Well, yes, so by the time I got into my position,
6:16
Speaker 3: we were working with every sort of trauma. So in
6:20
Speaker 3: a typical trauma group, we would have individuals with extensive
6:25
Speaker 3: childhood trauma including stashisical sexual abuse who had joined the
6:29
Speaker 3: military as a means to escape that vin revictivise, and
6:33
Speaker 3: then had combat related trauma as well. So we really
6:38
Speaker 3: had the full gamut of trauma experiences.
6:42
Speaker 1: So I mean, obviously heavy duty. How did you deal
6:46
Speaker 1: with that? I mean that however you slice it, it's
6:50
Speaker 1: intense to work with that. What was your experience, initial
6:54
Speaker 1: experience working with that?
6:56
Speaker 3: I get asked that not inly, I bet you do too,
7:01
Speaker 3: Robin kind of how do we do the work that
7:04
Speaker 3: we do? And I always feel like, oh my gosh,
7:07
Speaker 3: I see the best part of human nature.
7:10
Speaker 1: I see the part but when you first started, when
7:13
Speaker 1: you first started, yeah, that might be a little different,
7:17
Speaker 1: you know, because did you just did you think? Did
7:20
Speaker 1: you get into the field, like, okay, I want to
7:23
Speaker 1: work with trauma?
7:26
Speaker 3: So I personally didn't that unfolded And as I've worked
7:32
Speaker 3: in those areas, my interest grew and I saw the
7:36
Speaker 3: sorts of recovery that could happen, and so I just
7:40
Speaker 3: didn't have that experience that you're describing of being oh no,
7:45
Speaker 3: this is too hard, this is overwhelming. And part of it,
7:48
Speaker 3: I'm sure Robin will want to speak to this too,
7:50
Speaker 3: is the model that we work with helps you be
7:54
Speaker 3: in a place as a provider that that mitigates those
7:59
Speaker 3: sorts of effects of feeling a burnout as we hear
8:03
Speaker 3: about it or Vicarry is truma because you are in
8:06
Speaker 3: order to do it effectively, you need to embrace it
8:09
Speaker 3: and you use the very skills that you're helping your
8:12
Speaker 3: clients have and that helps me hold it in a
8:14
Speaker 3: way that isn't oh no, this is.
8:17
Speaker 1: Too much sure, sure, sure, which can be easier said
8:21
Speaker 1: than done. Robin, how about you? What was your entree
8:26
Speaker 1: into it? How did you What were you thinking about
8:29
Speaker 1: it when you when you got into it? Why? What
8:32
Speaker 1: was the attraction in the sense?
8:36
Speaker 2: Well, it probably wouldn't be.
8:41
Speaker 4: Authentic if I weren't to say that I do have
8:43
Speaker 4: a trauma history myself and so experience trauma in my background,
8:49
Speaker 4: although that wasn't what initially ignited my interest in working
8:54
Speaker 4: with trauma.
8:55
Speaker 2: I thought I was going to be a medical doctor, and.
8:58
Speaker 4: You know, I was headed on a different path, but
9:00
Speaker 4: could not do the freaking chemistry. So landed in psychology
9:07
Speaker 4: and started looking at the impacts of trauma and then
9:10
Speaker 4: thinking about the impact on my own family of trauma,
9:14
Speaker 4: and did my master's thesis in the area of childhood abuse,
9:20
Speaker 4: and then moved on and did a dissertation using experiential
9:25
Speaker 4: avoidance processes inside of act to look at the difference
9:29
Speaker 4: between people who are open to experiencing versus closed, And
9:36
Speaker 4: then got a job at the National Center for PTSD
9:40
Speaker 4: and history kind of wrote itself after that, and so
9:44
Speaker 4: been at the National Center for twenty five years.
9:47
Speaker 1: Awesome. Appreciate you both sharing that all right, let's kind
9:50
Speaker 1: of shift use a little act.
9:55
Speaker 2: What is it, Robin, So, act is an intervention that.
10:03
Speaker 4: Is about opening up to internal experience, very natural human emotion,
10:09
Speaker 4: learned thoughts, sensations that our body naturally has, and allowing
10:15
Speaker 4: them to be there for what they are, rather than
10:18
Speaker 4: fighting against it and trying to avoid them, which, by
10:22
Speaker 4: the way, is not human being's fault. We're taught that
10:25
Speaker 4: we should run away from these things, but the process
10:29
Speaker 4: of running away creates a lot of problems. And so
10:33
Speaker 4: what we want to do is help people turn toward
10:35
Speaker 4: open up, become aware of their experience, and then make
10:40
Speaker 4: a life that's about committed action related to values and
10:45
Speaker 4: creating meaning rather than a life that's about battling trauma
10:49
Speaker 4: symptoms and.
10:50
Speaker 1: Sounds amazing, Yeah, some sounds Buddhist. Yeah, there's a sense
10:56
Speaker 1: of acceptance there. Dara, give us an example of what
11:02
Speaker 1: Robin explained. What would that look like in practice?
11:06
Speaker 3: Well, it points to we're talking about different ways of
11:11
Speaker 3: being and different ways of relating to what is showing up,
11:15
Speaker 3: and that starts from the minute someone walks through my
11:18
Speaker 3: door and I first start having a conversation with them.
11:23
Speaker 3: The way that I'm talking about it and guiding them
11:26
Speaker 3: to start thinking about it as an experience that's showing up.
11:31
Speaker 3: So if they're saying I'm this that I might start
11:34
Speaker 3: reflecting back. So that sounds a really tough thought. What
11:39
Speaker 3: other thoughts come along that? What else shows up with that?
11:42
Speaker 3: And I'm already starting to point to an experience that's occurring,
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Speaker 3: and that there's a distinction between the client and the
11:51
Speaker 3: experience that we're talking about. So that's just a small
11:54
Speaker 3: example of how we start the work.
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Speaker 1: So just if I'm hearing you, they might someone might
12:02
Speaker 1: come in and say, my god, I'm feeling what crappy
12:07
Speaker 1: I'm feeling like? So turns about what happened, and you
12:11
Speaker 1: might say, what else is coming up for that to
12:15
Speaker 1: offer different ways of looking at it? Or what well, I'm.
12:18
Speaker 3: Glad you're saying reflecting it back because it's so important
12:22
Speaker 3: not to to. I think we're very quick to create
12:29
Speaker 3: sort of an algorithm or a rule in terms of
12:32
Speaker 3: how we would handle what someone says and what, of course.
12:36
Speaker 1: I mean the other everything's different and everyone's different.
12:38
Speaker 3: We all know that I'm looking for is the process.
12:40
Speaker 3: So the first thing I would do is, really, like
12:43
Speaker 3: I think any therapist really helped that person feel understood
12:47
Speaker 3: and joined. So my first reaction might be just something like, wow,
12:52
Speaker 3: that sounds really difficult, but I want to start working
12:59
Speaker 3: with this in a way that joins them in the experience,
13:02
Speaker 3: almost like we're together looking at something. Mm hmmm, So
13:08
Speaker 3: I would then yeah, So then I could say something
13:10
Speaker 3: like that sounds like a really well that is a
13:13
Speaker 3: painful thought. Even when you say that, my stomach kind of.
13:16
Speaker 1: Just drops right, Yeah.
13:18
Speaker 3: What happens to you right there?
13:23
Speaker 1: Okay, And I'm just trying to get an idea of
13:26
Speaker 1: this concept of acceptance. How might that weave into this.
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Speaker 3: Well, it's it's huge, it's we will sometimes speak to
13:41
Speaker 3: willingness as another term for acceptance, because so many clients
13:46
Speaker 3: come in with these notions of acceptance, meaning that they're
13:48
Speaker 3: supposed to somehow feel differently about it right that if
13:52
Speaker 3: they accept then it will change what it is that
13:55
Speaker 3: they're trying to accept. And we're really looking at radical
13:59
Speaker 3: acceptance of what is, which includes the way you think
14:03
Speaker 3: and feel about the trauma in this case. And so
14:07
Speaker 3: it's a stance of being open to what's there to
14:11
Speaker 3: be had in a way that isn't growing the struggle
14:16
Speaker 3: by fighting against it or trying to change it. So
14:19
Speaker 3: it's it's quite a skill that we're talking.
14:21
Speaker 1: About, Robin.
14:25
Speaker 4: Would you add to that, Well, I think I would,
14:31
Speaker 4: and I didn't hear that. What we're helping people do
14:34
Speaker 4: is take another perspective on the way they relate to themselves.
14:39
Speaker 4: So we're trained over and over again that we shouldn't
14:44
Speaker 4: feel particular ways, So you shouldn't feel crappy, for instance,
14:47
Speaker 4: what you brought up earlier, And if you're feeling that,
14:50
Speaker 4: what you need to do is figure out how to
14:53
Speaker 4: stop feeling it and then you can live your life.
14:57
Speaker 4: But the problem with PTSD is that people don't stop
15:00
Speaker 4: feeling those things even when they're working really hard to
15:04
Speaker 4: try to stop doing it, and the ways that they
15:07
Speaker 4: try to stop actually lead to harm, for instance, substance use,
15:12
Speaker 4: or getting out of relationships that are important or valuable
15:17
Speaker 4: to them, or being hypervigilant and not being able to
15:20
Speaker 4: go places because they don't feel safe. All of the
15:23
Speaker 4: ways that people run from their own emotional experience to
15:26
Speaker 4: try to tame it and get rid of it, because
15:30
Speaker 4: that's the message. If you feel bad, get rid of
15:33
Speaker 4: that so you can feel good. But the problem is
15:36
Speaker 4: is that people sacrifice their lives to try to feel good.
15:41
Speaker 2: And so what we want to do with acceptances.
15:44
Speaker 4: Take a new perspective that maybe running is the problem,
15:48
Speaker 4: not the emotional experience itself.
15:51
Speaker 2: And so we want.
15:52
Speaker 4: People to observe their experience and engage life now rather
15:57
Speaker 4: than wait to engage life when they feel better.
16:00
Speaker 2: I want them to live well.
16:01
Speaker 4: Does that make like rather than working on feeling good,
16:04
Speaker 4: we're going to work on feeling what you feel and
16:07
Speaker 4: living well?
16:09
Speaker 1: Right right? Yeah, I mean it makes perfect sense. And
16:13
Speaker 1: I think as we all know, again that's that's a
16:17
Speaker 1: hard calls. That can be a tough call for a
16:19
Speaker 1: lot of us. Let me just remind everyone I'm speaking
16:23
Speaker 1: with Daryl Westrup and Robin Wallzer. The new book is
16:27
Speaker 1: called You Are Not Alone in a CC Guide for
16:30
Speaker 1: Healing from Within.
16:33
Speaker 2: The guy, can I say you are not your trauma?
16:36
Speaker 1: You were not your trauma? What did I say?
16:37
Speaker 2: You are not alone? But they're not alone? You are trauma?
16:42
Speaker 3: Could be another subtitle.
16:45
Speaker 1: Thank you for that, Thank you for that correction, you
16:47
Speaker 1: are not your trauma and act guide for Healing from Within?
16:53
Speaker 1: All right, So why the book? Why did you write
16:58
Speaker 1: this book?
17:01
Speaker 3: Shall I go or do you wanna take it?
17:04
Speaker 4: Well, I'm happy to talk about it for a number
17:08
Speaker 4: of reasons and BO and some of those are just
17:11
Speaker 4: personal for me and there like, we wanna help people
17:14
Speaker 4: who are suffering from trauma, and there's not enough therapists
17:19
Speaker 4: to do that, and so this book is an offering
17:22
Speaker 4: for those people out there who either can't afford therapy,
17:25
Speaker 4: don't have insurance, and for those who do like it's
17:28
Speaker 4: a it's a terrific book for people who are struggling
17:32
Speaker 4: with trauma and want to find a way to work
17:34
Speaker 4: through it. So it's a way to reach a lot
17:36
Speaker 4: more people, and it's a way to share with folks
17:41
Speaker 4: what we've found to be healing, and we wanna offer
17:45
Speaker 4: that to trauma survivors uh finding a new way to
17:49
Speaker 4: engage their life. It's not just about running, hiding and fighting,
17:54
Speaker 4: but it's about getting out there and doing values based
17:57
Speaker 4: living in this one short life that we have.
18:01
Speaker 1: We'll see more about this, this value concepts you've mentioned
18:05
Speaker 1: it before. How does that come in? Where does that
18:08
Speaker 1: come in with act?
18:12
Speaker 2: Well, so we.
18:16
Speaker 4: A lot of people are focused on getting rid of symptoms,
18:19
Speaker 4: like let me not feel what I feel as I
18:22
Speaker 4: was mentioning earlier, and what gets sacrificed is how you're living.
18:29
Speaker 4: And you know, Darren and I have thought about this
18:33
Speaker 4: and the number of times and that you know, death ism,
18:36
Speaker 4: and for everybody, you have a short time to be here,
18:39
Speaker 4: and so how do you want to spend that time
18:42
Speaker 4: becomes a really important question. And for those who've been traumatized,
18:46
Speaker 4: it's like their time has been stolen by the emotional
18:49
Speaker 4: experiences that they're struggling with, in the memories that they're
18:53
Speaker 4: struggling with. And we want to see if we can
18:55
Speaker 4: get folks reoriented to living in ways.
18:58
Speaker 2: That create meeting based.
19:00
Speaker 4: On their values, based on what matters to them, so
19:04
Speaker 4: that it's not just about opening up to experience and
19:08
Speaker 4: learning that these emotions and sensations are not dangerous.
19:12
Speaker 2: It's also about okay, and now where do you want
19:15
Speaker 2: to go? What do you want to build.
19:17
Speaker 4: For yourself in your life? What root truly matters to you,
19:20
Speaker 4: and what would that look like? And so we want
19:24
Speaker 4: to understand people's values, see what they care about, and
19:27
Speaker 4: then help them engage in behaviors that get.
19:30
Speaker 2: Them oriented in that direction. I don't know if you'd
19:34
Speaker 2: have anything, Dad, No, I thought.
19:37
Speaker 3: That was a nice description. I was thinking of the
19:41
Speaker 3: many people we've worked with over the years who when
19:44
Speaker 3: you said that their life had been stolen. And I
19:47
Speaker 3: was thinking also, especially with some of the veterans that
19:51
Speaker 3: we worked with, who felt that they no longer deserve
19:53
Speaker 3: their values because of things seen and done and experience.
19:58
Speaker 3: And so it is pretty meaningful work to help people
20:03
Speaker 3: contact values like a point on a compass that's always there,
20:07
Speaker 3: regardless of what's gone before, that they can connect to
20:10
Speaker 3: and care about, and they in the next moment can
20:13
Speaker 3: choose what they will care about and whether the next
20:18
Speaker 3: step they take in my life is toward that value
20:21
Speaker 3: or not, and that stands regardless. And I've felt that
20:24
Speaker 3: was a really precious message that came out of this work.
20:31
Speaker 1: Robin, you talked a little bit about the book UH
20:35
Speaker 1: being accessible for people maybe who don't have access to
20:38
Speaker 1: therapy or even an ad jump to people who do,
20:42
Speaker 1: But more specifically, who who's the book for?
20:46
Speaker 4: Well, I think anyone who is struggling with trauma, including
20:50
Speaker 4: complex trauma, which means somebody has had multiple different types
20:54
Speaker 4: of trauma and usually across on a lifespan or a
21:00
Speaker 4: during childhood, so childhood sexual or physical abuse or severe neglect.
21:06
Speaker 4: But then they've also had other forms of trauma. So
21:09
Speaker 4: complex means multiple forms of trauma. And by the way,
21:14
Speaker 4: the clients that Dare and I see are often in
21:17
Speaker 4: that category. They have not just had one trauma, they
21:20
Speaker 4: have had many traumas. So anybody who falls into that
21:25
Speaker 4: category or even has a single trauma, like maybe they
21:28
Speaker 4: were in a car accident and they're having a really
21:31
Speaker 4: hard time, or they were the victim of violence, that
21:36
Speaker 4: it's really there for anybody who's experienced or struggles with
21:40
Speaker 4: the fallout of.
21:43
Speaker 2: A traumatic experience.
21:46
Speaker 4: Clinicians too, by the way, yeah, yeah, yeah, Okay.
21:51
Speaker 3: I had a clinician mentioned to me that she's been
21:55
Speaker 3: waiting for a book that would help her really help
21:59
Speaker 3: her clients. And I love thinking about the book being
22:03
Speaker 3: used in that way.
22:06
Speaker 1: So obviously there are many modalities out there. How does
22:13
Speaker 1: how would you say act within the context of trauma
22:19
Speaker 1: is different? What does it do differently? What's the perspective
22:22
Speaker 1: that's different?
22:26
Speaker 4: Okay, but you want me to start this one there
22:28
Speaker 4: or would you like to take a swing at it?
22:30
Speaker 3: Go ahead, go ahead, okay.
22:33
Speaker 4: So but by the way, guy, just for folks out
22:36
Speaker 4: there in the world who will be listening.
22:38
Speaker 2: We usually refer to it as ACT.
22:40
Speaker 4: And not ACT because there's another therapy called ACT out there,
22:45
Speaker 4: and so we say it is one word act, and
22:48
Speaker 4: it also speaks to the therapy itself. So if you
22:53
Speaker 4: hear us saying act, we're referring to you.
22:56
Speaker 1: Got it? Yeah, thank you for that.
22:58
Speaker 4: Yeah, just a general a term that people are used
23:01
Speaker 4: to in the act world, as they call it ACT.
23:05
Speaker 4: So it's different because fundamentally, and this is one of
23:11
Speaker 4: the things that I appreciated about it when I first
23:14
Speaker 4: contacted it, is that you treat the person as a
23:18
Speaker 4: whole human being, that they're not broken or dysfunctional or
23:24
Speaker 4: irrational or illogical about anything that's going on inside their skin.
23:32
Speaker 4: This is an approach that says you're a whole human
23:35
Speaker 4: being as you are. And the struggle is in that
23:40
Speaker 4: you've been told you shouldn't feel certain things, and if
23:42
Speaker 4: you've been traumatized, you're going to feel stuff. Things are
23:46
Speaker 4: going to show up there and it's naturally part of
23:49
Speaker 4: what you're going to feel.
23:51
Speaker 2: The problem is some people just get stuck, and largely
23:54
Speaker 2: what makes them stuck.
23:55
Speaker 4: Is there don't want to feel what they're feeling and
23:58
Speaker 4: it isn't allowed to process through, and so we're going
24:03
Speaker 4: to approach them from a position of your whole. To start,
24:08
Speaker 4: you're not dysfunctional, you're not broken, you're not a bag
24:13
Speaker 4: of symptoms. You're a human being who's had an experience
24:18
Speaker 4: that would elicit these kinds of arousals and emotional states
24:24
Speaker 4: and memories, and we're going to help you learn how
24:27
Speaker 4: to relate to those in a way that they no
24:29
Speaker 4: longer impact what you choose to do in your life.
24:33
Speaker 4: And so a lot of other therapies are about this
24:36
Speaker 4: is a dysfunctional, disordered process, and what we need to
24:40
Speaker 4: do is fix your disorder, get rid of the dysfunctional
24:44
Speaker 4: pieces of it, and that would be the treatment.
24:48
Speaker 2: And so we depart in that space.
24:52
Speaker 4: We're not going to try to make you think differently,
24:56
Speaker 4: so to speak, like you have to get rid of
24:58
Speaker 4: certain thoughts or memories or negative evaluations of yourself, but
25:04
Speaker 4: instead seem for what they are learned behaviors that you
25:08
Speaker 4: got a long time ago, that don't have to be
25:10
Speaker 4: in charge of your life.
25:12
Speaker 2: That many many, many human beings have.
25:15
Speaker 4: Right, Like, we all have negative thoughts about ourselves.
25:18
Speaker 2: But that's not your fault.
25:20
Speaker 4: You learned that you didn't come out and you weren't
25:23
Speaker 4: born with negative thoughts, you learned them, and so we're
25:27
Speaker 4: going to help you create a different relationship with them
25:29
Speaker 4: where they no longer have the impact that they seem
25:32
Speaker 4: to have.
25:33
Speaker 2: And Dre, I don't know if you want to add
25:34
Speaker 2: to or about the distincle.
25:36
Speaker 3: It's so interesting, guy, would you ask them these questions?
25:40
Speaker 3: Like I have a quick little montage of people that
25:43
Speaker 3: I've worked with over the years, and I was I
25:47
Speaker 3: just had this memory of sitting in my office at
25:50
Speaker 3: the VA with yet another a woman coming into the
25:54
Speaker 3: program and getting her initial interview, and they're talking about
26:02
Speaker 3: how excited she was and how long she'd waited to
26:05
Speaker 3: get in, and how we were going to change your
26:07
Speaker 3: life and how she was going to change your life
26:08
Speaker 3: to just having this huge sense of setup, right that
26:14
Speaker 3: she's set up, we're set up, and a feeling like
26:18
Speaker 3: if I look deep in her eyes, I was seeing fear.
26:24
Speaker 3: Because if you ask the right questions and you keep asking,
26:28
Speaker 3: you get you the right question. What you get to
26:30
Speaker 3: is I wanted to be gone. I wanted to not
26:33
Speaker 3: have happened, and I'm not okay until that's gone and
26:39
Speaker 3: not happened, and there's already this sense of hopelessness because
26:42
Speaker 3: we all know that can't occur. And until ACT, and
26:48
Speaker 3: until Acting in on board into our program, we didn't
26:51
Speaker 3: know how to address that. And it offered a way like, yes,
26:57
Speaker 3: that sense of that what you're wanting is not possible,
27:02
Speaker 3: you're right, and there is a way to hold this.
27:07
Speaker 3: There is a way to have a vital life, to
27:10
Speaker 3: feel whole and intact even with this, And prior to
27:14
Speaker 3: this therapy, I didn't hadn't found a way to help
27:17
Speaker 3: someone who had never had the experience of feeling acceptable
27:21
Speaker 3: or whole contact that and live from that place. ACT
27:26
Speaker 3: offers that, And we can't get there if people are
27:30
Speaker 3: stuck in the battle of trying and get rid.
27:32
Speaker 1: Of what is mm hmm like setting up this duality.
27:39
Speaker 1: This is bad and I have to get rid of.
27:41
Speaker 3: It, and I'm bad as long.
27:43
Speaker 1: As I have it right, right, right. Well, there's something
27:50
Speaker 1: as you both were talking, there's something I was feeling.
27:56
Speaker 1: How much sense pressure or ease I would feel if
28:07
Speaker 1: I walked into either of your offices and heard what
28:10
Speaker 1: you were saying. I'm not saying it would be easy
28:14
Speaker 1: to accept but there's that that that different perspective. It
28:21
Speaker 1: feels very to me like martial arts is coming up,
28:25
Speaker 1: you know, moving with not against yes. And that's again
28:33
Speaker 1: it's not always easy to do because all this crap
28:36
Speaker 1: and ship we're experiencing in shame and yeah, we want
28:40
Speaker 1: to get rid of it and we don't want it
28:44
Speaker 1: to have we want it not to have happened.
28:52
Speaker 4: Wow, there's a real paradox interestingly in wanting to not
28:58
Speaker 4: have your internal variance, right. The struggles like if you
29:02
Speaker 4: want to get rid of a memory, which many people
29:05
Speaker 4: who've been traumatized do. They don't want to think about
29:07
Speaker 4: the bad thing that happened to them, but it's intruding, right,
29:10
Speaker 4: Like that's the and so you do something like I
29:15
Speaker 4: want that memory to go away. Then you've had and
29:17
Speaker 4: you keep doing that. What you're doing is having more
29:21
Speaker 4: interaction with the memory. So if you want to memorize something,
29:25
Speaker 4: what do you do? You repeat it again and again
29:27
Speaker 4: and again, and so then people are in there, I
29:30
Speaker 4: don't want the memory. I don't want the memory.
29:32
Speaker 2: What memory? The one that I'm saying I don't.
29:33
Speaker 4: Want, repeat, repeat, And so it gets bigger.
29:37
Speaker 2: Do you see how it got bigger, not smaller.
29:40
Speaker 4: And so our job isn't to like help them figure
29:42
Speaker 4: out how to excavate something out of their mind, but
29:46
Speaker 4: to be present to it, have some compassion for your experience,
29:52
Speaker 4: let it flow and be. And it isn't Eastern has
29:56
Speaker 4: Eastern philosophical flavors in there, right, you can hear it,
29:59
Speaker 4: let it come and goal.
30:03
Speaker 2: It's the not letting it go that.
30:05
Speaker 4: Actually creates more of the suffering if you don't want to.
30:09
Speaker 4: It's hard to not have a thought, like if I
30:12
Speaker 4: said right now, like you guys don't think a thought
30:14
Speaker 4: and it's next second or two like it's impossible. So
30:19
Speaker 4: people take control that they can do out here, Like
30:23
Speaker 4: you can move things around in your environment, So why
30:25
Speaker 4: can't I move things around inside my skin?
30:28
Speaker 2: Because it doesn't work that way.
30:31
Speaker 4: It's it's not the thing they're inside your skin that's
30:35
Speaker 4: the problem. It's the trying to control them that's the problem.
30:39
Speaker 4: And so this is where Dara and I can come
30:42
Speaker 4: in and look at where control is effective and look
30:45
Speaker 4: at where it's not and it's not effective and trying
30:48
Speaker 4: not to feel. We're built to feel. That's a very
30:52
Speaker 4: human experience, and we want to have compassion and humanity
30:57
Speaker 4: for that experience. We want to help people come back
31:00
Speaker 4: to knowing what it means to be a human being.
31:03
Speaker 3: All the good stuff is there too.
31:05
Speaker 2: Yeah, good stuff is there to do.
31:07
Speaker 4: By the way, if you if you're suppressing emotion, you
31:11
Speaker 4: can't suppress. You don't get to choose which ones you're
31:14
Speaker 4: gonna suppress. Like we are not very good as human beings.
31:17
Speaker 4: That's saying I don't want to feel anxiety, so I'm
31:19
Speaker 4: going to suppress that one.
31:22
Speaker 2: What you end up doing is suppressing at all.
31:24
Speaker 4: And so if you don't want to feel anxiety, you're
31:27
Speaker 4: also cutting yourself off from joy. You open up to
31:31
Speaker 4: the flow of experience, then you open up to joy
31:34
Speaker 4: as well. And Darre and I want our clients to
31:37
Speaker 4: feel joy like that is on the agenda because joy
31:42
Speaker 4: feels like it's not there, it's not available until I
31:45
Speaker 4: get rid of this trauma. And what we want to say, No,
31:48
Speaker 4: it's there, it's a it's available, and when you get that,
31:53
Speaker 4: let's bring it into your life.
31:56
Speaker 1: So as we kind of wind down, here are our
32:01
Speaker 1: You're obviously you're not saying you know. Obviously you're not
32:10
Speaker 1: saying you know someone comes into your office and they're
32:12
Speaker 1: having all these symptoms. You're you're not saying, you know,
32:14
Speaker 1: shut up and deal with the symptoms. I'm just I'm
32:18
Speaker 1: just making making a point. But you know that's not
32:23
Speaker 1: very emphathic. But you're you're you're in one tn You're saying,
32:32
Speaker 1: you know, looking at it, being with it is one
32:35
Speaker 1: way of managing or or dealing with it correct dancing
32:40
Speaker 1: within in a sense.
32:42
Speaker 2: Dancing with it, I said, probably a better metaphor.
32:45
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm putting myself in our listener's seat here. What
32:52
Speaker 1: are other ways that you might deal or work or
32:58
Speaker 1: address these symptoms that someone is coming into your office with?
33:03
Speaker 1: Or is that the entirety this process of learning to
33:08
Speaker 1: be with and to bring in one values and as
33:12
Speaker 1: you were speaking with about earlier, Robin, is looking at
33:15
Speaker 1: someone's values and seeing what does light them up in
33:20
Speaker 1: their life.
33:23
Speaker 5: Well, there's a set of skills that are very interrelated
33:28
Speaker 5: that all are pulled into play, and I see our
33:35
Speaker 5: work as helping our clients develop those skills.
33:39
Speaker 3: But I think I would really want the listener to
33:41
Speaker 3: understand and anyone considering learning more about this is that
33:45
Speaker 3: it's a deeply as Robin pointed, to it. It's a
33:48
Speaker 3: deeply compassionate therapy, and we are not saying you need
33:54
Speaker 3: to think and feel differently about this. Quite the opposite.
33:58
Speaker 3: We're helping. We're joining in that difficult experience, the human
34:02
Speaker 3: nature experience of how we experience difficult things, what we
34:10
Speaker 3: do that tend to make those things even more difficult,
34:14
Speaker 3: and how we might hold them in a way that
34:17
Speaker 3: allows us to re engage in the good lives. But
34:20
Speaker 3: that is not in any way suggesting that they should
34:23
Speaker 3: be thinking and feeling differently. We're joining in that experience
34:27
Speaker 3: of suffering and kind of boldly pointing to that, saying,
34:32
Speaker 3: you know, there's a reason why, on top of the
34:35
Speaker 3: pain of this experience you're struggling, let's talk about that
34:39
Speaker 3: pass But it's not a hey, you need to work with.
34:44
Speaker 2: This differently true well in symptoms.
34:48
Speaker 4: Interestingly enough, if you look at the research data, although
34:52
Speaker 4: symptoms are not the target of the treatment, like, we're
34:56
Speaker 4: not saying let's go take that symptom and push it
34:58
Speaker 4: down that we're saying, let's go see what you're feeling
35:02
Speaker 4: and open up to it, which might sound a little
35:05
Speaker 4: bit scary to some people, but it's actually moving through
35:08
Speaker 4: and showing exposing yourself to your emotional experience, and what
35:13
Speaker 4: you learn is that they're not dangerous.
35:15
Speaker 2: Emotions are not dangerous, they're not harmful. Memories are not.
35:19
Speaker 4: Harmful, and so we want people to learn that. But
35:24
Speaker 4: when we do that work, people report that their symptoms
35:27
Speaker 4: go down. But we're not targeting their symptoms. But part
35:32
Speaker 4: of it is is that they've stopped that battle that
35:34
Speaker 4: you're pointing to. And when you stop the battle, turns
35:38
Speaker 4: out your symptoms.
35:43
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so and there.
35:45
Speaker 4: You know, we do some work that's called a selfish
35:48
Speaker 4: context or perspective taking. We help people connect to a
35:52
Speaker 4: larger sense of self that can.
35:55
Speaker 2: Hold all experience.
35:56
Speaker 4: We work on mindfulness and presence and being aware and
36:01
Speaker 4: tracking what's happening for you in your life and what
36:04
Speaker 4: the consequences of your own behavior are so that you
36:06
Speaker 4: can shift and change and adapt and vary in ways
36:10
Speaker 4: that are going to help you depending on the context
36:13
Speaker 4: that you're in. So you know, we're we're not just
36:16
Speaker 4: saying let's open up to this, like we're doing a
36:18
Speaker 4: lot of different things in.
36:19
Speaker 2: The room and in the book as well.
36:22
Speaker 4: We're walking people through these different processes to help establish
36:26
Speaker 4: a sense of being willing and moving into acceptance as
36:31
Speaker 4: a way of walking through the world with your values
36:34
Speaker 4: intact and being lived.
36:35
Speaker 2: Out as a process not an outcome. Right, Does that
36:39
Speaker 2: makes sense?
36:40
Speaker 4: Like you don't arrive in your values, you don't arrive
36:43
Speaker 4: at loving and go I'm done with that one.
36:46
Speaker 2: Loving is always there to be done.
36:47
Speaker 4: And so how do I keep doing that as I
36:49
Speaker 4: move through life, even when I come against other challenges?
36:53
Speaker 2: And if you've got.
36:54
Speaker 4: New learning on board, you've learned a new way, you're
36:57
Speaker 4: going to be able to do that versus continent and
37:00
Speaker 4: youing to battle yourself forever. I mean, Darren and I
37:03
Speaker 4: have worked with veterans who are you know, in their
37:06
Speaker 4: seventies in eighties, and they're telling us things like I've
37:11
Speaker 4: been struggling with.
37:11
Speaker 2: This all my life.
37:13
Speaker 4: All my life, I've been burying this burden and it
37:19
Speaker 4: didn't have to be that way. And so, you know,
37:23
Speaker 4: we want to We hope that people listening can hear
37:26
Speaker 4: it doesn't have to be something that.
37:28
Speaker 2: You bear the burden of your whole life. It can
37:31
Speaker 2: be about something else.
37:34
Speaker 4: And that's the work we want to that's the work
37:36
Speaker 4: we want to do, and that's the work that's in the.
37:38
Speaker 1: Book once again. The book is called You Are Not
37:43
Speaker 1: Your Trauma and Act Guide for Healing from Within by
37:47
Speaker 1: doctors Robin Wallser and Darah Westrup. Dar Let's start with you.
37:52
Speaker 1: What's the best way for people to learn more about
37:55
Speaker 1: what you're doing.
37:56
Speaker 3: Well, I'm on LinkedIn. You can find me doctor Darrek
37:59
Speaker 3: west there, and I'm on Instagram, and i have a
38:04
Speaker 3: web page dub dub doctor Dara dot com, which I
38:08
Speaker 3: know is doctor Phil but hey, and I try to
38:13
Speaker 3: keep my activities updated there and we'd love to welcome
38:19
Speaker 3: you all to join me in whatever way interests you.
38:23
Speaker 4: Awesome, how about you, Robin, Yeah, I've got a website,
38:28
Speaker 4: Robin Walser dot com where people can learn about the
38:31
Speaker 4: trainings and consultation and treatment that I'm doing. I've also
38:37
Speaker 4: got an Instagram account, Facebook account, and blue Sky account
38:44
Speaker 4: and so. But people can connect to all of these
38:46
Speaker 4: on Robin Walser dot com. They're all there, and if
38:49
Speaker 4: they're interested, they can follow in me those in those places.
38:52
Speaker 4: I put out a newsletter on a monthly basis that
38:57
Speaker 4: a lot of folks have been quite interested in and
39:00
Speaker 4: so if people want to join me there they can
39:01
Speaker 4: do that as well awesome.
39:03
Speaker 1: And we'll have each of those, all of those linked
39:05
Speaker 1: up here at the show notes page at the Trauma
39:07
Speaker 1: theaprispodcast dot com. Both of you, thank you so much. Obviously,
39:12
Speaker 1: there's a lot to talk about and I'd love to
39:16
Speaker 1: have you back at a later date. Both awesome. Thank
39:19
Speaker 1: you so much for being here, and we'll be in touch.
39:21
Speaker 1: Thanks all right, take care,