Latest / The Chuck ToddCast / Interview Only w/ Paul Rieckhoff - Politicizing The Pentagon Is The Most Dangerous Thing Trump Can Do

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Interview Only w/ Paul Rieckhoff - Politicizing The Pentagon Is The Most Dangerous Thing Trump Can Do · The Chuck ToddCast

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  Speaker 1: and joining me now is somebody I've known a long time,
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: somebody that I've would feature as much as possible in
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  Speaker 1: my NBC days. He founder of the Iraq and Afghanistan
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: Veterans of America. He had been a fierce advocate and
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  Speaker 1: still is a fierce advocate for veterans and when it
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  Speaker 1: appears the VA is not giving our returning soldiers the
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  Speaker 1: care and attention that they need, and he owes a
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  Speaker 1: terrific podcast Independence that's focused really on as he calls
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: himself the angry middle, or he wants to be representative
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  Speaker 1: of the angry middle. As you know, that's sort of
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: I think of politics from the middle out. I call
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  Speaker 1: myself an incrementalist. Paul calls himself an independent representing the
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: angry middle. So that's going to be a lion's share
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  Speaker 1: of our conversation.
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  Speaker 2: We did a home and away. I was in his podcast.
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  Speaker 1: Earlier this month, so I appreciate him return in the
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  Speaker 1: favor to me, mister Raikoff.
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  Speaker 3: Good to see man, Good.
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  Speaker 2: To see you, Chuck. I really appreciated you coming on mine.
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  Speaker 2: We had a great super Bowl conversation too. Yeah we
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  Speaker 2: did hear you talk about politics, but when you talk
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  Speaker 2: about football, it's even better.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, well, you know, maybe even pocketed a couple
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  Speaker 1: of bucks.
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  Speaker 2: A very conventional wisdom. Super Bowl.
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  Speaker 1: It sort of went exactly like every expert said it
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  Speaker 1: would go.
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  Speaker 2: You know, yeah, it was also you know, it was
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  Speaker 2: a really good team super Bowl, and maybe that's more
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  Speaker 2: of what we need in America right now. I mean,
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  Speaker 2: it was old school blocking and tackling. I told my sons,
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  Speaker 2: like you though, I've got two young boys who play football.
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  Speaker 2: That was the best blocking game I've seen in a
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  Speaker 2: long time. Seattle is a really good blocking team working
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  Speaker 2: together eleven people, and that's kind of more what we
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  Speaker 2: need in America right now.
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  Speaker 1: Well that that, well, this is why I'm a I've
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  Speaker 1: always been a such a huge advocate of football, almost
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  Speaker 1: more so than every other team sport, because you know,
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  Speaker 1: you really have to row in the same direction. You
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  Speaker 1: have to have eleven guys doing their job. You cannot
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  Speaker 1: you can. You can have a basketball team where four
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  Speaker 1: guys slack off. You can have a baseball team where
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  Speaker 1: there a few guys slack off. You cannot have in football.
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  Speaker 1: And it's just it is such an important life skill
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  Speaker 1: to get across, which is why I'm happy to see
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  Speaker 1: flag football, which creates more gender opportunities, gender equity there.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, I just think the whole concept of football
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  Speaker 1: is so team oriented. More so that it is. It
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  Speaker 1: is a great teaching tool.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it requires selflessness at a time when most sports
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  Speaker 2: are really about individuals. And look at me, and you know,
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  Speaker 2: I've coached football for many years, played football, played in college,
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  Speaker 2: and I don't think that there's anything like it because
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  Speaker 2: it requires sacrifice, it requires teamwork. It requires cooperation and
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  Speaker 2: requires forward planning. It's obviously strategic in terms of field
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  Speaker 2: position and all the other elements, but I think it's
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  Speaker 2: the ultimate team game. And I've played rugby, I've played baseball,
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  Speaker 2: I've coached a lot of sports. It's very hard to
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  Speaker 2: teach young people because it's so complicated, but I think
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  Speaker 2: it really instills the values, and I think it reflects
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  Speaker 2: the cooperation and teamwork we need and democra You know,
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  Speaker 2: football is a lot like democracy. If we don't figure
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  Speaker 2: out a way to work together, things can get brutal
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  Speaker 2: real quick. And I feel like our democracy looks like
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  Speaker 2: Drake may under constant pressure and getting hit from all sides.
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  Speaker 1: Oh right, we have no left side of the offensive
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  Speaker 1: line right at four, guys, I mean.
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  Speaker 3: The left side's gone, the right side's gone, and we
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  Speaker 3: got to depend on the middle.
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  Speaker 1: Hey, before we leave football, since you coached it and
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  Speaker 1: you watch it in a in a way that's probably
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  Speaker 1: not just from a fan perspective, it really does seem
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  Speaker 1: like in the last forty eight months, both in college
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  Speaker 1: and the pros, which is defense is not just caught
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  Speaker 1: up to offense. But I think we're now in a mode.
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  Speaker 1: I mean it was. You look at the college football
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  Speaker 1: playoff and look Miami in Indiana one because of their defense.
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  Speaker 3: That's why they got to that finals.
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  Speaker 1: You know, it was it was and you could say, well,
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  Speaker 1: you know, if a little better offensive performance by Miami,
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  Speaker 1: maybe they win that game. But the point being is
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  Speaker 1: that the defenses were the domin minute. You know, Ole
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  Speaker 1: Miss didn't have one. That's why they they were limited
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  Speaker 1: in how far they could go. And we see it
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  Speaker 1: in what happened in the NFL this year where it
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  Speaker 1: was the defensive teams and by the way, two defensive
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  Speaker 1: coaches making it to the Super Bowl, which might be
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  Speaker 1: a first.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, I'd build on that.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, you know, defense gets you to the championship,
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  Speaker 2: but defense is not the difference in the championship. And
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  Speaker 2: I think we've seen that in both the college game
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  Speaker 2: and in the pro game. And what I would tell
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  Speaker 2: you is it ultimately comes down to leadership, and it
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  Speaker 2: ultimately comes down to the quarterback, and it comes down
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  Speaker 2: to the quarterback who's not going to make the great play,
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  Speaker 2: but the quarterback who makes the bad play. And we
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  Speaker 2: saw that in the Indiana game. You know, and you're
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  Speaker 2: Carson Beck, I was not made a bad play and
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  Speaker 2: Mendoza didn't, everything else being equal, if Carson Beck makes
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  Speaker 2: those plays and Mendoza doesn't, it goes the other way.
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  Speaker 2: Drake may had an opportunity to make the game close.
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  Speaker 2: You know, in the third quarter, he throws a pick.
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  Speaker 2: He makes some bad throws, So I think it really
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  Speaker 2: there's nothing like being a quarterback.
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  Speaker 3: On a football field.
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  Speaker 2: In leadership, it's kind of like elected office or an
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  Speaker 2: executive functioning. Think about a president or a governor. It's
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  Speaker 2: all eyes on the quarterback. And the quarterback is important too,
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  Speaker 2: because he doesn't just have to know his job. He
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  Speaker 2: has to know all eleven people's jobs every single time
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  Speaker 2: and has to be the ultimate coordinator. That's why, frankly,
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  Speaker 2: I'm excited about Mendoza as a role model for our culture.
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  Speaker 2: If this kid runs for political office, and I hope
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  Speaker 2: he runs as an independent, he's exactly the kind of
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  Speaker 2: leader that people need. He's selfless, he's humble, he's kind.
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  Speaker 2: He's an example of the kind of leader that we need.
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  Speaker 2: I'm glad that he especially was elevated during during this
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  Speaker 2: last couple of weeks.
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  Speaker 1: I'm with you, there's something you know, sometimes some guys
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  Speaker 1: are too good to be true, and you're like, boy,
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  Speaker 1: I hope I'm not missing something here. Let me go
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  Speaker 1: a little bit. I know a little bit of your
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  Speaker 1: origin story, but I don't know if all my all
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  Speaker 1: my listeners do. How'd you get into the military, Why
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  Speaker 1: did you? And this is what you're doing now? What's
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  Speaker 1: an alternative path that you thought you'd be doing twenty
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  Speaker 1: years ago?
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  Speaker 3: Wow?
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  Speaker 2: Well, twenty years ago, I guess I was already out
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  Speaker 2: of college and the football dream was gone. But you know,
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  Speaker 2: I did not expect this kind of winding path. But
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  Speaker 2: it started with my time in the military, and it
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  Speaker 2: started with a sense of service. My father was drafted
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  Speaker 2: during Vietnam. My grandfather was drafted during World War Two
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  Speaker 2: and spent three years in the South Pacific. And I
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  Speaker 2: thought that was how everybody's family was when I was
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  Speaker 2: growing up, your third generation there, I am. But you
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  Speaker 2: know I was the first to volunteer, which I think
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  Speaker 2: is also a reflection of our times, right. I mean,
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  Speaker 2: I came from an immigrant family. My grandfather immigrated from
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  Speaker 2: Germany and spoke no English. My grandmother on the other side,
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  Speaker 2: came from Hungary and spoke no English. But that generation
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  Speaker 2: they all served. My other grandmother had eleven brothers and
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  Speaker 2: sisters had nine brothers. All nine brothers served, all Italian
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  Speaker 2: Americans from the Bronx. They all served. So I came
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  Speaker 2: from a community and a fam, a working class background,
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  Speaker 2: where service was pretty much expected. I was the first
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  Speaker 2: one that didn't have to go, but I wanted to go.
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  Speaker 2: I wanted to give back. I wanted I felt like
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  Speaker 2: I owed it to my family and to my community
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  Speaker 2: and to my country. Because I was the first one
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  Speaker 2: that didn't have to go. I got to go to college,
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  Speaker 2: I got to play football, I got a great education.
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  Speaker 2: But I really wanted to give something back, and it
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  Speaker 2: came down to either the Peace Corps or the military.
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  Speaker 2: I viewed them both as ways to give back. And
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  Speaker 2: the military, you know, I wanted to jump out of
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  Speaker 2: airplanes and blow stuff up. And I also wanted to
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  Speaker 2: challenge myself in a way that I had never been
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  Speaker 2: tested before.
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  Speaker 3: And I think I got a lot of that. But
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  Speaker 3: it also sparked in me in understanding that politics.
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  Speaker 2: Impacts all of us, and maybe no more so acutely
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  Speaker 2: than when you're in the military. There's nothing more serious
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  Speaker 2: our politics can do than send young men and women
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  Speaker 2: to war, and that's what pulled me into activism. That's
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  Speaker 2: what pulled me into this work, and frankly still drives me. Now.
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  Speaker 2: I want to fight for our country. I want to
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  Speaker 2: fight for our democracy in whatever way I can. And
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  Speaker 2: instead of a rifle, now I've got a microphone.
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  Speaker 1: What kind of scarred at Vietnam? Leave for your father?
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  Speaker 1: Because Vietnam scarred my father and he didn't serve, and
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  Speaker 1: I'll tell you the story in a minute, But what
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  Speaker 1: kind of scar did that lead?
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  Speaker 3: So my father got very lucky.
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  Speaker 2: He got drafted in nineteen sixty eight, but did not
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  Speaker 2: get sent to Vietnam, so he got sent to Europe.
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  Speaker 2: But you know, plenty of his buddies in the Bronx,
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  Speaker 2: you know, were killed guys he went to high school.
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  Speaker 2: He always told me the story of when how he
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  Speaker 2: found out he was getting drafted. My grandfather pulled out
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  Speaker 2: an envelope and he felt in the bottom of the
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  Speaker 2: envelope it was from the government. There was a subway
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  Speaker 2: token in it, and if you felt the subway token,
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  Speaker 2: you knew you were getting drafted. And my grandfather looked
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  Speaker 2: at my father and said, Paulie, you're getting drafted.
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  Speaker 3: For Vietnam, right, and that was the way they found out.
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  Speaker 3: I think the really important thing, though, even more.
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  Speaker 2: Than the scarring, was there was a social accountability. Everybody
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: felt like they had skin in the game, except you know,
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  Speaker 2: for Donald Trump and some of the elites who got
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: out of it. But there was an understanding that we
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  Speaker 2: were all in this together and there was that shared sacrifice.
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  Speaker 2: So my grandfather and my father will talk about the
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: hard times, but they also talk about the unity. They
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: talk about the diversity in different terms. They don't say diversity,
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: but they all got out of a train together. They
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  Speaker 2: all went to basic together, and then they all went
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  Speaker 2: across the country. And my father's best man in his
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  Speaker 2: wedding was a guy who served in the army with
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  Speaker 2: from Chicago. They never knew each other until they went
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  Speaker 2: in the army. So those relationships, I think are really
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  Speaker 2: important and maybe a bit of the silver lining from
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  Speaker 2: those times that we're missing right now, that social connection,
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  Speaker 2: that cohesion. But I've also worked with countless Vietnam bets.
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  Speaker 2: The scars are significant and I think also cresting now
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  Speaker 2: in some ways, Chuck that people don't understand the suicide
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: rate is now over seventeen per day, and many of
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  Speaker 2: them are older veterans. They're suffering from agent orange and
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: tox and exposures. Mental health, COVID has been hard. They
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  Speaker 2: deal with isolation and economic stress. And I think these
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  Speaker 2: times are compounding a lot of things for veterans that
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: are making it especially tough.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Look, my dad's best friend, he had a sort ofast
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  Speaker 1: few years of his childhood were kind of a mess
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  Speaker 1: with his father in particular, his mother. And his best friend,
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  Speaker 1: who's about a year or two older, dies in training
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  Speaker 1: in Pensacola after being drafted, and it just it made
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  Speaker 1: him obsessed with not going, and it made him obsessed
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: it and in fact, he ended up. He will say
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: that the reason he became a Republican is he blamed
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  Speaker 1: Johnson for killing his best friend.
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  Speaker 3: That's how he viewed it.
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  Speaker 2: He did.
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  Speaker 1: He viewed it very personally, and there were so many
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  Speaker 1: You're not alone right these different ways. By the way,
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: the other thing that I was it sort of it's
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  Speaker 1: made me And I'm curious how you feel about certain
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: active I'll just tell you the person Richard Blumenthal. When
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: Richard Blumenthal said he couldn't remember everything about his about
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: his draft status. When my dad died, I found a
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: foul folder of every single piece of paper, every thing
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: he needed to know about his draft status, about eligibility.
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: And at first he was able, he was not eligible,
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: and then he became elgron. He just ended up getting
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: a high lottery number and he didn't have to get picked.
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: But I remember thinking, and it was sort of one
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  Speaker 1: of those things that sixteen year old me said, you know,
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: anybody of the Vietnam era, if they tell you, oh,
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: I don't remember how it happened, I don't remember bullshit
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: you were.
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  Speaker 3: My father was obsessed with it.
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  Speaker 2: He had a whole and he kept it all. He
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: saved it all. He had felt like he had have
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: all his record with him.
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: So I've always found the easiest way to find out
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: who a lying politician was from that was of eligible
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: to serve in Vietnam. When they tell you they're not
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: quite sure, they think they got this, they think they
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: got that. They don't want to tell you the details.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, every guy I know who got drafted and remembers
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: that moment they know their lottery anything about it, right, Yeah? Yeah,
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: I mean, you know, my father talked about it, and
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: he knew when his buddies in high school went. You know,
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: I think there's also something interesting about Vietnam check with
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: regard to our politics, is the Vietnam veterans took so
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: much of that angst and frustration and disillusionment, and they
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: took it on personally in a way that we never have.
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: And I don't know if any generation of American veterans
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  Speaker 2: has right. That was a generation where the country confused
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: the people with the politics, and I think it manifested
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: itself in so many ways all the way through to
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: the fact that they might be the only generation of
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: veterans that never had a president. They came close, and
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: I talked to John McCain and other folks about this.
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: There was a point where you had John McCain was
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: a presidential candidate, John Kerry was a presidential candidate. At
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: one point, I think there were three Vietnam veterans in
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: Obama's cabinet. You had Shinseki, Hegel and Carry and the
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: number of Vietnam bets said, you know, we came close,
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: but we never got the White House.
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: It's the strangest thing, and I wonder if it really
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: is that they were that the public view of Vietnam
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: veteran is too politically scarred to lead. Maybe they didn't
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: say it that way.
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: There was a lot of different evolutions if you think
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: about like when Bob Carey was a presidential candidate, He's
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: a friend and mentor and a Medal of Honor recipient. Right,
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: we were much more conflicted about it, even talking about
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: Bill Clinton's lack.
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: Of velo and Bob carry story only got more complicated
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: the more we learned about his Medal of Honor, you know, right.
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  Speaker 3: Right, But I think the insight is that.
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  Speaker 2: The political trajectory of Vietnam veterans is a reflection of
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: the way the country processed all of it. And at
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: the end of the day, they never elected a Vietnam
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: better Now, now flip that around. Now we've got a
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: vice president who is the first post nine to eleven
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: veteran in jd.
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: Vance.
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: Trump has loaded up his cabinet with veterans. The Democrats.
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: I have Reuben Diego on my show today. I mean,
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: he's a post nine to eleven veteran. We have long
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: said that we think we will have a post nine
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: to eleven veteran in the White House. You'll probably have
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: a couple, and you can envision any number of scenarios
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: Pete XXth to Wes Moore, everybody in between. There's a
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: unique moment for them to meet right now. And also
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: I think reset the way the country understands service.
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: Are you surprised that the scars from Iraq and Afghanistan
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: and didn't hit our politics the same way Vietnam did?
• 16:12
  Speaker 3: I mean, I think we're still processing it, Chuck.
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think there's a different part of our politics,
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: which is we were the first generation that went to
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: war while most of America lived life uninterrupted. Right we
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: were the first pro tact shop of the all volunteer military.
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: So I think we're still processing now when Trump can
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: strike Venezuela or talk about hitting Iran because it's other
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: people's children. And I think that maybe that is one
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: of the most important things to understand about this time,
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: is that the all volunteer military is great for the military,
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: but I would argue it's terrible for our democracy because
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: there is no social connectivity, there is no backstop. And
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: that's why I work so much with independent veterans, because
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: they don't want to pick a side, right, So many
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: of them view themselves as country first, and they're like, hey,
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: I'm wearing a camouflaged uniform. I don't want to choose
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: blue or I want to keep camouflage.
• 17:01
  Speaker 3: I want to stay true.
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: And I think it's very exciting to understand that so
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: many of them are there and they want to serve,
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: especially in this moment. So I think we're still processing it,
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: processing nine to eleven, processing the manipulation.
• 17:14
  Speaker 3: Around the Iraq War, and even you know, rewriting history.
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: If you look at someone like Hegseth, you know he's
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: talking about Iraq and Afghanistan in very different terms. He's
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: talking about being okay with leaving the Geneva Convention, being
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: okay with getting out of NATO, stuff that would have
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: been unimaginable even just twenty years ago. And he could
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: do it in part because he's kind of cloaked in
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: that veterans status. And I think both parties use it.
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: They understand that veterans are uniquely powerful politically, but so far,
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: for the most part, they've also been proxies for both parties,
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: and that may be true all the way to the
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: twenty twenty eight election, where you could have a Democrat
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: and Republican VET against each other.
• 17:54
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  Speaker 1: is something you should really think about it, especially if
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  Speaker 1: you've got a growing family. What do you at what
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  Speaker 1: point do you worry about how military recruiting is changing
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: under Pete Heggst every.
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: Day, all day.
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think that you and I have talked
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: about this a bit, but maybe not on your show.
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: I think it's really important to understand that Trump's strategy,
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: in my view, has been extremely focused and extremely effective,
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: and in his view, he wanted to transform the way
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: the country operated, and the most important place to start
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: was the Pentagon. That's why he nominated Hegseet first, a
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: person that many of us know and thought would never
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: get through a Senate confirmation hearing. But he threw the
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: long ball and he got heg Set through and that
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: really bust open a hole for Tulsea Gabbard and Kennedy
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: and so many others that would have normally seemed like
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: a long shot. But they went for the Pentagon first
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: because it's the most powerful, it's the biggest budget, it's
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: got trmendous cultural influence, it's easy to move.
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: And it's where the guns are.
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: So when they secured the Pentagon, it was kind of
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: the first chess piece on the board, and that allowed
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: them to put in place, in my view, a culture war,
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: because that's what hexth is. And if you want to
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: wage culture war, you started the Pentagon and you move outward.
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: So I'm very concerned because the Pentagon is how Trump
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: wants the rest of the world to look that is
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: more male, more white, less diverse, less politically diverse, which
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: is maybe the most alarming. We don't want it to
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: be a maga army, but if you continue to drive
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: people away who don't feel welcome, it will increasingly become
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: politically monolithic.
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: It'll become gender monolithic. And we see that already.
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: So you can goose the numbers in the beginning and say, hey,
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: we've got tremendous recruiting, but that is not sustainable over time,
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: and you have to ask a question of quality, right,
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: what kind of military are we building? And the reality
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: is people can see what Ice looks like. The military
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: is more and more looking like Ice, but you don't
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: see them they're military.
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: I'm just gonna say, the Ice recruit, Look, you recruit,
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: how you recruit is what type of force you're going
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: to build?
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: And those Ice recruitment videos, excuse me, where they where?
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: They specifically addressed blue cities. I remember, you know, I'm
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: we started our conversation with football. I'm a obsessive college
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: football guy. And what was interesting this fall is how
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: often you'd see during these football games, whatever market was
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: the primary market of whatever team lived it would, you know.
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: So you're watching a University of Washington game, you get
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: this ad that said, hey, Seattle law enforcement, are you
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: tired of not being able to do your job right?
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: It's this, it's this sort of negative pitch.
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: You know, well, guess what if you come to Ice,
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: We're going to first of all, throw a bunch of
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: money at you. Fifty grand signing bonus, which is that's
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: a big chunk of change. That's that is that gets
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: you out of debt. That's a that's a get me
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: out of student debt. That's a right size, that's a
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: down payment on a house, that's a it's life changing.
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: Fifty grand is is both is a lot of money
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: for a lot of people, and it can it can alter,
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: it can it can accelerate a path in life. But
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: you're recruiting them on this you don't get to do
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: your job, And essentially you're saying it's it's going to
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: appeal to a certain type of law enforcement official. Are
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: you seeing those same tactics in military?
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: And it should?
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: Are more of our friends in the press corps missing
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: a story here?
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: Yes, I mean, you know I've long said that Trump
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: wants to transform society. He wants to transform the Western hemisphere,
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: and he'd probably love to transform the whole world. And
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: if you want to see what it looks like, it
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: does look like the Department of Defense. And let me
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: go a step deeper. Things like book banning. Right, when
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: they decide what books they want to ban, they can
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: do them at military schools, because the military has to
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: do what you say, right, And it's not like you're
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: going to go with the Cincinnati or into Miami and
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: have a debate with the school board. If the Secretary
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: of Defense is these books are gone, they're gone. They
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: can restrict women's rights, they can restrict abortion access, they
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: can change recruiting quotas, so they can move the edges
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: in ways that will transform the complexion of what the
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: military looks like. And yes, I think the most important,
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: one of the most important stories is that the military
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: is becoming more partisan.
• 25:25
  Speaker 3: It's becoming more.
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: Politicized, in part because it's built in the image of Hegseth,
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: who in my view, is the most overtly political Secretary
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: of Defense we've ever had.
• 25:34
  Speaker 3: I do think he's a culture warrior.
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: He's got an ideological approach to the way he wants
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: to transform not just the military, but our culture. That
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: includes an emphasis on Chaplains. For example, if you hear
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: Hegseth talk, he's not doing Jewish prayers, he's not talking
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: to agnostics and atheists.
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: It is Christianity. It is a lot of white men.
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: It has really attacked diversity, and they openly say they
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: want to destroy DEI. I think it's important for people
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: to understand that the first real DEI initiative in modern
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: times was for veterans. There's a veteran's preference in hiring
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: at the Pentagon, at the VA, across the entire federal government.
• 26:12
  Speaker 3: But that's a water's edge that they haven't hit yet.
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: So I do think the overall transformation of the Pentagon
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: is very, very important. And I think the biggest story
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: in America, and I've said this to anybody I can
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: talk to, is that Donald Trump can do anything he
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: wants with the most powerful military the world has ever seen,
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: and nothing stopping it. He can bomb Ron, he can
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: send them into American cities, he can remove women from
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: combat arms. He can do anything he wants with this military,
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: and almost nothing has stopped him. And the Congress, in
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: my view, has completely abdicated their responsibility, and I do
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: think that the press Corps especially has a failure of
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: imagination around what he can do with the military to
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: the most immediate threat, which I would argue is the
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: Insurrection Act. He can invoke the Insurrection Act at any minute.
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: The Congress won't stop him. He'll send the eleventh there
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: worn Core into for example, Minneapolis, and Congress will be
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: protesting afterward. But the eleventh, the Airborn Court, will be
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: in Minneapolis in the same way he's deployed Ice in
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: the same way he's deployed federalized troops in other places.
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: And I think that will be a very important break
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: class moment for our country.
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: So it sounds like that what you're saying is that
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: more people are to see what's happening right now. It's
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: really hard to report on the military. I mean, look
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: what they just did to the Stars and Stripes publication.
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's in part hard to report
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: in the military because they're totally stone walling the press.
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: They've removed the Pentagon Press Corps.
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: They've replaced it with what I call the Propaganda Press Corps,
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: which is Laura Lumer.
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: It's hard to call guys TV Network.
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: Right, But even this, Chuck, they haven't done a press
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: conference with them in two months.
• 27:46
  Speaker 3: Right, they haven't even done one with them.
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: And so some of these right wing activists Matt Gates
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: and others are pissed off because they're not getting information
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: and they're not getting access. So I do think again
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: that their war on the press started in the Pentagon,
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: where they came after guys like Don Lemon. They were
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: removing the pre depending on press corps and kicking out
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: the Washington Post. And it's all in coordination because if
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: there is no oversight over where you're moving troops or
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: even when troops die, right, we're not getting casualty reports
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: about where troops are dying, how many are wounded, how
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: they're doing, and not to mention, they struck another boat
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: last night off the coast of Venezuela, Right, and there
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: was a survivor, Chuck, let me give you an example.
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: There was a survivor. We don't know who that survivor is,
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: we don't know where they've gone, we don't know if
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: they've been interrogated. It just kind of goes away, and
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: we still haven't had the conversations about war crimes and accountability.
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: So I think the number one focal point for everybody
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: should be national security because it's where they've got the nukes,
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: it's where they've got the tanks, it's where they've got
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: the National Guard, and it's where they literally could put
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: troops on your corner if they want to.
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: It's literally the most dangerous part of government if it
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: gets partisanized.
• 28:59
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, it's the biggest weapon that can be used.
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: And even not just not just partisanized, chuck, but totally unchecked.
• 29:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: Right, I mean, you know, if you've got to Let's
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: say he's whimsical at best. If Trump decides he wants
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: to strike Mexico, he will do it, and then Congress
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: and Blumenthal and everyone else will whind about it afterward. Right,
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: I mean, he is all gas and no breaks, and
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: nothing is slowing him down. Even for example, when the
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: courts ruled in Washington, d c. That the National Guard
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: deployments were illegal, they claim they filed for an extension
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: because the two National Guard troops were shot in the
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: head and they got it. So those National Guard troops
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: are still in DC. Right, So he can even push
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: away the courts, find an excuse, find a reason. And
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: I think the overall strategic landscape that people need to
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: understand is he continues to push with the military n
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: ice and kind of toggle deeper and further without any
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: real block or slow down from Congress or anyone else.
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: The only thing stopping him is himself and maybe Chairman
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Dan Kane, who might
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: be the single most important person in America because he's
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: probably the only one stopping Trump from doing whatever else
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: he wants to do.
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: What's what we saw with Milly in the first turn, right,
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: and you know, I feel like Millie has become a
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: polarizing figure to some where simply he was just trying
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: to preserve preserve norms. Like he didn't do anything outwardly politically.
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: He was just trying to preserve the apolitical status of
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: the US uniformed military.
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: I mean, there's an old saying in the Marine Corps,
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: no better friend, no worse enemy, and I think that
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: that is true in politics when it comes to veterans. Right,
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: if you've got Pete, hegseth on your side, and you
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: can wrap him in the American flag and he can
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: do lots of pull ups, and he can talk the
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: tough talk. He's a very formidable political actor. And let's
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: use the flip side. He got somebody like Senator Mark Kelly,
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: who Trump is focusing on because he's uniquely effective, because
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: he's an act at because also, I think an underreported story, Chuck,
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: if you can shut up Mark Kelly, you can send
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: a chilling effect across two million military retirees in America,
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: because they don't just want to shut up Mark Kelly,
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: they want to shut up me any other veteran who
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: can be uniquely effective in pushing back on any of
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: these issues we've talked about. So I think it's really
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: important to note that in this term especially, Trump has
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: been extremely strategic, and I think he's on plan, or
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: even ahead of plan. Imagine how far he'd be if
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: Hegseth wasn't screwing up all the time, right, I mean,
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: imagine how much further they would be toward their goals.
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: In twenty twenty five for Trump, in my view, was
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: about dominating America. Twenty twenty six is about dominating the
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: Western hemisphere from Greenland to Venezuela to potentially Cuba and
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: other places in between.
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: What's your historical analysis as to why Democrats, why many
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: active military veterans just pause a little bit more when
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: comes to democratic leadership of the military than Republican leadership
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: of the military.
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: You know, I think that's an oversimplification. That's changed the
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: bay I hear that. I know I'm oversimplifizing.
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: Look, I go back.
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: Look the fact is a majority of veterans voted for
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: Bush over Kerry.
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: That's true, yeah, you know, but a.
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: Majority of veterans in the Obama you know, it was
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: a pretty sizable victory over McCain, but a majority veterans
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: support of McCain, I believe.
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, you know, veterans are a reflection of
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: the country, right, and if you took a group of
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: older white men who tend to be from the South,
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: they're going to vote Republican, right, and and that you know,
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: that's what the officer corps looks like in the military.
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: So it's more you almost it's almost more where that
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: it's it's more of I always say, we're all born
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: with original bias, literally where you're born, who you're born to,
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: all of that that has It's not the military itself
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: that pushes veterans to lean right. It's their own cultural
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: essentially formation as a child that makes them lean und Yeah,
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: and the.
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: Military kind of like football, is like a family affair.
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: I mean, the oversimplification is that there's kind of three
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: kinds of people who join the military nowadays. Right. It's
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: people who join because they're family joined it was a
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: family business, or it's part of their legacy. Right. There's
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: people who yeah, And then there's people who legitimately want
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: to serve. Right, this is maybe the smallest percentage, the
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: folks that want to fight the good fight or they
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: want to give back. And then there's a lot of
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: people who need health care or want the money for school.
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: And I think that that's an important subset too, because
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: the enlisted ranks, especially prior to this administration, tended to
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: be more diverse ethnically racially in terms of gender, and
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: they were more gettable for Democrats, and they tended to
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: vote more Democrat. Right now, the veterans population is different.
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: That's nineteen million people have gotten out. They tend to
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: be older white men, and older white men tend.
• 33:51
  Speaker 3: To vote Republican.
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: Right, So I think what's really interesting is that over
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: fifty percent of veterans and active duty are independent politically unaffiliated,
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: and they haven't had a home, so a lot of
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: them stay on the sidelines. They will sometimes choose a
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: John McCain or they'll choose a John Kerry, and I
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: do think they tend to gravitate toward another veterans. But
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: the reality is they're looking for a Mark Millie, They're
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: looking for a Colin Powell. They're looking for an Admiral mccraven.
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: Who's an example I know you will give. And they're
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: like most Americans. Most Americans are independent. Now forty five
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: percent was the last Gallup poll. Only twenty seven percent
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: of Democrats and Republicans. Those numbers are shrinking in the
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: military too. On a trajectory basis, now you do have
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: Republicans and Fox Newswatchers and petext fans that are over
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: indexing in the military right now, But if you look
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: at it longitudinally, they are reflective of where the elector
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: is for the most part.
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: When you look at the twenty eight field, you know,
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: it's fascinating to see that essentially we haven't elected a
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: military veteran as president since George HW.
• 34:59
  Speaker 3: Bus.
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: I think some would argue national Guard service.
• 35:04
  Speaker 3: With George W. Bush.
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: I'll put that in the it's somewhere in the middle.
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: Where do you let mean no, as a military veteran,
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: where do you put that? Where do you put national
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: Guard service?
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: I mean it's better than nothing, right, but he's not
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: a combat and it are different today.
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: Right, If you were in the National Guard in the
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: twenty first century, you may have been sent overseas. I
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: think when the National Guard of the sixties or seventies,
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: you weren't, right, and too often.
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: This becomes like a keeping up with the Joneses thing
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: within the military. But I think for veterans, have you
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: served at all? That's important, right. I think it's important
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: to the country as well. Have you put the country
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: ahead of yourself? And to me doing National Guard? Yeah?
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: All right, in anywhere there's plenty if folks more than
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: most people. Yeah, But then combat service is important in
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: understanding the human cost of war up front, having your
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: buddies die, you know, knowing what it's like.
• 35:51
  Speaker 3: To write a letter home to your mother in case
• 35:52
  Speaker 3: you're killed.
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: John Kerry understood that. George Bush the first understood that.
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: And I think now you're going to have a generation
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: from both the Republican and the Democratic Party that understands that,
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: and I think these are actually the people to watch, Chuck.
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: I mean, Jadie Vance is obviously on the playing field.
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: Who knows that Hegseth is. You've got people like Tom Cotton,
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: Ron DeSantis served in the Navy. Almost every one of
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: them has got some kind of military service. On the
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: other side, you've got Mark Kelly, who we've talked about.
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: You've got Reuben Diego, You've got Mikey Cheryl, the governor
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: of New Jersey.
• 36:23
  Speaker 3: You've got Wes Moore in Maryland.
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: I mean, they all have some kind of military service
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: and combat experience. Now how they view that combat experience
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: is dramatically different, and that's why I argue they're often
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: proxies for the parties, but they are very effective proxies
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: for the party so far. And I think that was
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: an under reported.
• 36:41
  Speaker 3: Part of Mikey Cheryl's victory, span Berger's victory.
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: They were able to appeal to a broad swath and
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: especially to independence because of their national security experience, because
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: of their veterans experience, and they're leading with that because
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: most of all, Chuck, it establishes trust, and I think
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: people don't trust politicians. They don't trust authenticity, they don't
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: trust that they're going to fight for them. And there's
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: a natural baked in respect for veterans that can transcend
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: party in a way that almost nothing else can.
• 37:09
  Speaker 3: Maybe celebrity and money, but veterans are kind.
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: Of like a secret superpower in politics that can always work.
• 37:17
  Speaker 3: That's where why you and I are so in line
• 37:19
  Speaker 3: on this.
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: I think that I certainly view it this way for
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: when we're trying to repair something that's broken in the
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: moment right and right now, where our politics is broken
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: and are a military veteran might be the best way
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: to go. And frankly it's not lost on me, And
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: I think I said this to you before that for me,
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: there are two presidents that stand out as being the
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: closest we've ever had to actually having independence as presidents,
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: people that truly did put country over party.
• 37:51
  Speaker 3: One was our first.
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: One, and he's got plenty of receipts to prove that
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: one and the other's Eisenhower. And I don't really think
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: there's anybody else that comes close.
• 38:02
  Speaker 3: Do you concur with that or you think.
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: I mean a different roll of the dice, And it
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: could have been Colin Powell, right, Colin Powell could have
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: been the first African American president, you know, first black
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: president in history, right, if it had gone differently.
• 38:13
  Speaker 3: And I think that's important to.
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: Recognize too, because at that time he had a unique
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: credibility and popularity in the country that was probably even
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: higher than John McCain or someone like that, Right, So
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: there was there was a potential opportunity there. But I
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: do see especially at the local level, and this is
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: what I'm doing now with Independent Veterans of America. We're
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: running one hundred candidates this fall. We're running as many
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: as seven or eight per Senate who I think will
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: be competitive in places where Democrats are Republicans can. But
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: at the local level, mayor's, school board, county executives, people
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: don't want a partisan school board representative, right, you shouldn't,
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: I my view, you shouldn't have a Republican or a
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: democratic school board. And veterans are now stepping up and
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: they want to run, but we have to help create
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: a pathway where they can be viable, where they can
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: get ballot access, where they can compete with the big
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: money and the parties, where we can have open primaries,
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: something I know you've talked about and focused on. But
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: if the field is leveled, veterans will serve and they
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: can get things done. They can be pragmatic, they can
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: represent everybody, and they can represent what is the biggest
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: voting block now in the country, the forty five percent
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: of the independence and non affiliateds that are also the
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: fastest growing percentage of our electorate, sixty percent of young people.
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: Every demographic. We see that people are saying no to both.
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: And it's not just middle chuck, it's none of the above.
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: They're just throwing a middle finger up to all of it.
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: They don't want corporations, they don't want corporate media, they
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: don't want the parties, and they want to be independent
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: in the spirit of George Washington.
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: And this is I think the challenge, this continues to
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: be the challenge of tapping into this on what on
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: paper looks like an incredible group to tap into, and
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: yet the problem when you take this forty plus percent
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: that self identify as not either party, right, they say, no,
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: I'm independent, I'm really not comfortable with either party. Obviously,
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: when you push you can figure out, oh, culturally they
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: lean this way, and culturally they lean that way, and
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: all of that. It is hard to find a unifying
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: set of issues for this independent movement. This is what
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: I've what you what becomes the flaw in the ointment here?
• 40:17
  Speaker 3: Right?
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: What seems like a no brainer on paper. Look, people
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: pick independence for a reason, right, Bernie Sanders is independent.
• 40:25
  Speaker 3: I hear he's not a real independent.
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: Well what he he's not comfortable being with either major party,
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: but he's obviously ideologically wants something a little bit different.
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: And he caucuses with the Democrats. But there are a lot.
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: Of people who call themselves independent but are decidedly either
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: you know, uh, sort of conservative libertarians or progressive independence.
• 40:53
  Speaker 3: There's a lot of different reasons for folks to be independent.
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: I think it's really important for folks to think about
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: the fact that independent is an attitude.
• 41:01
  Speaker 3: More than it is a political affiliation.
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: Right, It's not an ideology, it's not an ideology, right,
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: But what the unifying factor is They reject the status quo,
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: and they reject both parties, and they're looking I would
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: argue for leaders even more than issues, and too often
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: they're dismissed as spoilers or they're leaning. Very seldom do
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: we actually have a chance to vote for an independent candidate.
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: Because oftentimes they can't even make the ballot. They have
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: higher thresholds to reach the ballots, they don't have the
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: same fundraising mechanisms, and that's a problem that we're working against.
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: But when you look at someone like Jesse Ventura, he
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: won he won a governor's race in Minnesota.
• 41:37
  Speaker 3: This was decades ago, right.
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: And I think in many ways that's an indicator for
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: what can be happening now. Because he had the power
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: of celebrity, he was able to obviously master the media.
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: But there's an independent mayor of Colorado Springs right now
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: named Jemmy Mobilatti. And there's an independent mayor of Chattanooga,
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: Tennessee named Tim Kelly.
• 41:56
  Speaker 3: And there are a number of veterans running for.
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: Senate, like Dan Osborne in Nebraska who can potentially win
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: in a Senate race where a Democrat can't. There may
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: be one in Montana, which might be the most ripe
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: for the Senate in terms of running an independent candidate,
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: because right now we know that the Democrats are very
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: unpopular and the Republicans are very unpopular, and independents are
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: in a unique position to run against everybody to say
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: I'm against all of it. And if you capture that
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: with the veteran persona like I think some of these
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: folks are or celebrity. If Matthew McConaughey decides to run
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: in Texas or the Rock decides to run for president,
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: I don't say that dismissively because Ronald Reagan once did it,
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: Jesse Ventur once did it. If people can can jump.
• 42:37
  Speaker 3: Do Donald Trump has done it.
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: Let's not pretending anthing other than sort of a celebrity.
• 42:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah, the moment is ripe right now.
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: And the other thing that I think we're close to, Chuck,
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: is a significant scalable investment. The left has the Soroses
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: of the world and the right has the Koch Brothers.
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: There's been no real billionaires jumping in to this. Elon
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: Musk has talked about it, but there is a market
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: opportun unity here that sooner or later somebody is going
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: to recognize. And I think it's really like an oil
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: well set to be spiked.
• 43:07
  Speaker 3: So we're going to run a hundred of them.
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: We're going to take some good shots, but we win
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: one Senate seat, and it could be Idaho, South Dakota, Montana, Nebraska,
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: and we may see a couple others. Then that will
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: immediately be the single most powerful member of the Senate.
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: An independent fulcrum who doesn't caucus with either the Republicans
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: or Democrats, especially if it's a veteran, could be the
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: most powerful member of the Senate.
• 43:28
  Speaker 3: And that's what we're shooting for this fall.
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• 46:24
  Speaker 3: I've never understood.
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's been one of my frustrations with Angus
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: King in there, which is I thought he could build
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: all you need is four to six members, right, you
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: already really have two foundational members of this independent block
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: who I do think who if they would agree basically,
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: will we're either all going to vote for one party
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: or the other depending on what you're promising when it
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: comes to the independent Senate agenda. Angus King and Lisa
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: Murkowski could be these ten polls and they won't do it.
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: And I don't know why, right which, because if they
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: would pledge to do this, they already have the backing
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: of their own states to do this. So if they
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: would join hands, and they could have done it with
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: Mansion and Cinema and likely recruited a Susan Collins, although
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: I don't know, but in theory, let's say they could
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: have done that. Maybe at Todd Young I could throw
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: in there, maybe at John Curtis out of Wyoming, where
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: that says, look, we're going to be independents first, and
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: we're going to vote as a block to decide which
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: party gets to organize the Senate based on here are
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: our five demands. You don't need the majority. Right, It's
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: exactly what you're saying. And I don't know why this
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: has been so hard to get somebody to try to
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: be the leader of the independence.
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: To be frank well, politicians are often behind the curve,
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: not ahead of it, right, And I think the people
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: want this. But if you look at someone like Angus
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: King or Bernie Sators, they were essentially elected with the
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: expectation that they would caucus with the Democrats. Right, So
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: I would chole whether.
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: The reason I single out Angus King is when Angus
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: King rings ran for governor, he ran against both parties.
• 48:06
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, but he won his governorship. Yeah.
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: By the time he had ran as the Senate, You're right,
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: Democrats just said, hey, we're not going to recruit somebody
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: against him, and if we don't, he'll probably caut us
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: with us.
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And I do think Angus King is probably the
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: closest thing we have in the Senate to being that leader.
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: And I've had this conversation with him on my show
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: and I've challenged him on it. But I also think
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: we're close to a breaking point, Chuck, where we only
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: need one or two to break ranks and defect and
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: let me give you two examples. Jared Golden in Maine
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: is a Democrat, a veteran who very easily could break
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: ranks with the Democrats and declare his independence become unaffiliated.
• 48:40
  Speaker 3: And someone like Don Bacon.
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: Also a veteran from Nebraska who continues to buck against
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: his party. If the two of them came together and said,
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: we're going to send a message, We're going to break
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: the seal. It's safe out here. You can leave the
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: Democratic a Republican party. You can get media attention, you
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: will have other people who look out for you, and
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: there will be money.
• 48:58
  Speaker 3: Because here's the real truth, Tuck.
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: I've got a lot of folks who call me up
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: and say, you know, I'm thinking about running, but does
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: anybody have like ten million dollars.
• 49:05
  Speaker 3: For me if I run? Yeah, they need air cover.
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: Admiral mccraven says he doesn't want to run. If Mike
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: Bloomberg gives him a hundred million dollars, he might rethink
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: that situation.
• 49:15
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: So we have to, I think, simultaneously attack the systems
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: with open primaries. We have to address the lack of infrastructure,
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: front fundraising, ballot access, but we also need super captivating leaders,
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: and I think we're very close to seeing that. Dan Osborne,
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: I think broke through tremendously in Nebraska because of his
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: realism because he was a steam worker. You know, he's
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: a union guy, he's tough, he's got tattoos, he's talking
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: real We're going to run like one hundred Dan Osborne's.
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: But we're also one step away from getting Mark Millie
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: or Admiral mccraven or someone like that. And I think
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: once we get a high visibility person that can drive
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: that infrastructure behind him, people are going to defect. They're
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: not happy as Democrats and Republicans. They just have to
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: know that if they leave, they can survive. And that's
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: where the people come in. You have to worth those
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: independent candidates and make it viable for people who put
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: country over party. And the people that want to kill
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: it the most are the parties. The parties do not
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: want us to do this. That's why when when when
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: Brad Lander and Mom Donnie, when they when they won,
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: one of the first things they did was kill the
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: open Primaries initiative to get on the ballot in New
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: York City because they want to slam the door behind them.
• 50:21
  Speaker 2: The DSA ran the table, they worked the Democratic primary,
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: and they want to ensure there are no open primaries
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: going forward, because if you want a counter to Mom,
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: Donnie or Trump, open primaries.
• 50:33
  Speaker 3: Is probably it.
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: Uh yeah, look it's it's the two parties are the
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: reason why.
• 50:40
  Speaker 3: You can't.
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: It is so difficult in some states to even get
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: on the ballot, which I know you're experiencing with what
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: you're helping. Let me flip the script there this way.
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: If you were if the Democratic Party and the and
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: or the Republican Party came to you, in fact, I
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: want you to answer both questions, and they say, okay,
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: Paul were we need to figure out how to appeal
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: to this large block of independent veterans. What's your advice
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: to the Democrats? What's your advice to the Republicans? Is
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: it the same or is it different advice for each party?
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: Well, they do that, I will tell you, Cantley. I
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: hear from a lot of elected leaders and leaders from
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: both parties, and what I tell them most of all
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: is drop your party affiliation because your brand is shit.
• 51:21
  Speaker 3: You can't run.
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: The minute you put an r DA, you can't. This
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: is a truth, nothing but skepticism. This is the truth
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: is that Americans don't trust Republicans or Democrats, and their
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: brands are sinking, you know, Like I think ten thousand
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: people are leaving the Democratic and Republican Party every single day.
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: They're checking out. And I think it's a new normal
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: where people can order fifteen different couches from Amazon, but
• 51:44
  Speaker 2: they only have two options on the ballot. People want
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: more choices, and that's the future of America in my view.
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: So the number one thing they can do is not
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: be themselves, which is hard for them to do. But
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: I do think it comes down to a focus on
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: national security, for example, on issues like law enforcement and
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: first responders, talk about things that they don't want to
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: talk about sometimes like taxes. Right, But I do think
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: that most independence, more than anything else, want to hear
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: that you will be independent, meaning you won't be beholden
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: to donors, you won't be beholden to parties, you won't
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: be behold into ideology, and you will truly put the
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: country and your community first. And the ones who can
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: do that with authenticity will get independence. Right. And Trump
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: knows how to play that tune.
• 52:27
  Speaker 3: He does it.
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: He knows what populism sounds like he also knows how
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: to capture culture right where you can get politically adjacent
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: people who watch sports, who watch music, and I think
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: those folks are more movable as well. So my advice
• 52:39
  Speaker 2: to them is to legitimately be independent, show you can
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: buck your party.
• 52:43
  Speaker 3: And let me give you a really good example, Wes
• 52:46
  Speaker 3: Moore and Gavin Newsom.
• 52:48
  Speaker 2: The redistricting that they're doing in their states is great
• 52:51
  Speaker 2: for the Democrats.
• 52:52
  Speaker 3: In my view, it's bad for our democracy.
• 52:54
  Speaker 2: Fighting fire with fire is not good for America, and
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: I would argue that if they want to attract independence
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: in states, or if they want to run for president,
• 53:02
  Speaker 2: don't do the redistricting. Don't do the redistricting and support
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: open primaries in your state, which would empower millions of
• 53:10
  Speaker 2: people to vote equally in your state. That's a really
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: easy one, Chuck. You can understand and appreciate the true
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: cowardice of a democratic Republican. If they won't support open primaries,
• 53:19
  Speaker 2: they won't support an equal vote for someone like me
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: who served their country and doesn't have the same power
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: as someone who decides to run to participate in their
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: private primary, which is publicly funded, uses public resources and
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: public schools.
• 53:35
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: Oh, I don't see how it's constitutional. I don't think
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: that this stuff is unconstitutional. I think it diolates the
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: Equal Protection clause. And I think the idea that I
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: got to register for a party. Luckily I live in Virginia,
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: no party registration, so I can I've got all the
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: freedom as a voter. That is not the case I
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: believe you're in New York. Not the case in New York.
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: And that's just I thought we used to call those
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: poll taxes. No, that's right, that's exactly right. And I
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: think it's really important for people to think about this. Look,
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: I would argue everyone should declare their independence.
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: Right, you have a lot more power as a voter
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: if you are politically and now you could argue you
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: want to vote in the primaries, but this is the
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: way things are going. And if you just give them
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: your name, you give them your affiliation, and you don't
• 54:19
  Speaker 2: make them work for it, you're an easy get right.
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: And I think more Americans are tired of that, and
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: they don't feel like they feel like the Republicans are
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: driving our country off a cliff and the Democrats can't
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: stop them, so they want alternatives who can hold the
• 54:34
  Speaker 2: line and represent more people. And I do think they
• 54:38
  Speaker 2: want unity, right, And if you're an independent I think
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: you can legitimately offer unity and at the same time
• 54:44
  Speaker 2: challenge people who are extreme. Whether you view Trump or
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: Mom Donnie as.
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: Extreme, Let's try to get a lighter here at the end.
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: You're trying to you you're running an independent media operation.
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: I'm running an independent media operation. I'll tell you the
• 54:59
  Speaker 1: one thing that I feel growing with me all the time,
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: which is I feel like I'm so focused on content
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: that I'm not doing enough ingestion and I have to
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: carve out time and it is increasingly difficult to keep
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: up simply because there's more good content available than ever
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: before thanks to sort of this massive fragmentation. We're all
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: you know, I mean, look at the world of podcasts.
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: There are more hours of podcasts that I want to
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: listen to than I have time during the week.
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: How do you do it? What's your diet? Give me
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: your diet?
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: How do you still do leisurely reading and podcasts listening?
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: Because I think finding that's the time I'm struggling to find.
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: It's like everything is all geared towards the work product
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: that I'm finding myself.
• 55:53
  Speaker 3: Missing my casual stuff. You know, whatever.
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: It is, your sports podcast, maybe a movie pod, it is.
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: I'm curious. You're doing a lot. That's why I got
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: to think. And you've got a kid at home. Still
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: I'm empty nests. Yeah, I'm empty nest. So I got
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: a little of less of that responsibility. How are you
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: balancing this?
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: I mean, the short answer is discipline, right, and that
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: comes from the military, and part it comes from being
• 56:18
  Speaker 2: a social entrepreneur. An entrepreneur comes from.
• 56:21
  Speaker 3: Being a dad.
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: But I am extremely rigorous about getting up at a
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: very early time each day. And the first thing I
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: do is I go get some sunlight, and I make
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: sure I get direct sun, and I get some fresh air,
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: and I get some coffee, and I get to do
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: some breathing and stretching and exercise and a really cold
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: shower because I want to do hard things to start
• 56:41
  Speaker 2: my day.
• 56:41
  Speaker 3: And I get interested.
• 56:42
  Speaker 2: You're a cold shower guy. I don't have a cold
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: pl I live in New York City, so I can't
• 56:46
  Speaker 2: have a cold plunge, and I don't have a lake outside.
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: But I do think starting my day without my phone,
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: where I can set the tempo, I can lay out
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: my goals. I can reflect and get my body in
• 56:57
  Speaker 2: my mind right, is really really key before the kids
• 57:00
  Speaker 2: get up, before the assault of news comes. And then
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: I do read like I mean, I read newspapers and
• 57:06
  Speaker 2: international papers and blogs. I try to consume as much
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: information as I can because part of my job is
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: helping people navigate it. And that's the I think the
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: upside of this, Chuck is that you are like a
• 57:18
  Speaker 2: compass for people. You're an asthmyth, and I think at
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: times like this, it's our job to help people process
• 57:23
  Speaker 2: and find a path through the chaos. And that's the
• 57:26
  Speaker 2: exciting part here is I think they actually can trust us.
• 57:28
  Speaker 2: We don't have corporate sponsors and we don't have to
• 57:31
  Speaker 2: run by agrads all the time. We can wake up
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: and focus on the things we care about. And I
• 57:36
  Speaker 2: do think that it requires me to be especially disciplined
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: around things like veterans issues. I'm covering the suicide numbers,
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: even though it's not exciting first responders issues. I'm focused
• 57:46
  Speaker 2: on the fact that the nine to eleven records have
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: not been fully released. Right because I know who my
• 57:51
  Speaker 2: audience is, I know who my community is.
• 57:53
  Speaker 3: Vets are depending on me to talk about.
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: The VA because almost nobody else does right, and that
• 57:59
  Speaker 2: forces me, I think, to have a degree of discipline,
• 58:02
  Speaker 2: and frankly, national security is the ultimate clarifier. So if
• 58:05
  Speaker 2: I'm worried about too much stuff, you know, nukes are
• 58:08
  Speaker 2: a great clarifier. Attacks on Iran are a great clarifier.
• 58:12
  Speaker 2: I still also have to make time for joy and
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: for creativity. So you and I talked on my show about.
• 58:18
  Speaker 1: I know, fallout. I know we got it. Both got
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: obsessed with that.
• 58:22
  Speaker 2: Right fallout. And you know I love Landman and I
• 58:25
  Speaker 2: watch tons of sports, But I think it's also important too, Chuck.
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: I shut it off when I spend time with my boys.
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: And there's nothing more important to me than being with
• 58:34
  Speaker 2: my boys, who are ten and six, and I coach,
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: which I think is the most important clarifier, because I
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: can't turn on my phone, I can't get distracted. I've
• 58:43
  Speaker 2: got six year olds on a football field or a
• 58:45
  Speaker 2: basketball court and they're all looking at me, and that,
• 58:48
  Speaker 2: in some ways is the most important thing I think
• 58:49
  Speaker 2: many of us can do, which is demonstrate good leadership
• 58:53
  Speaker 2: and be good role models in our community. And I
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: tell my boys all the time, you got to read
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: readers or leaders. It's over my shoulder here. My son
• 59:01
  Speaker 2: won super reader, and you gotta be disciplined and read, Chuck.
• 59:07
  Speaker 3: That's my long winded answer.
• 59:09
  Speaker 2: Beyond the cold showers and doing lots of push ups
• 59:11
  Speaker 2: and stretching, you got to read people.
• 59:13
  Speaker 1: You got to read the cold shower ideas.
• 59:18
  Speaker 2: That's something I might.
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: I might because I'm an obsessive early riser for the
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: same reason I want as much time without distractions as
• 59:26
  Speaker 1: I can.
• 59:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 59:27
  Speaker 1: Right, And the only time of day you can get
• 59:29
  Speaker 1: it is somewhere between four and seven.
• 59:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, I like doing one of the hardest
• 59:34
  Speaker 2: things possible to start my day because then I know
• 59:37
  Speaker 2: I knocked out something hard. I mean, I'm not a
• 59:39
  Speaker 2: craven making my bed. Making my beds important too, But
• 59:43
  Speaker 2: if you freeze your ass off in a nice cold shower,
• 59:45
  Speaker 2: you're awake and you know that you can do.
• 59:47
  Speaker 3: Other things after that.
• 59:49
  Speaker 2: But I also think it's very very important for us
• 59:51
  Speaker 2: to talk about mental health, and it's about your mental
• 59:54
  Speaker 2: health and making sure you taking care of yourself and
• 59:57
  Speaker 2: what is not only chaotic times, but likely to be
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 2: staying chaotic times. This is our normal, Chuck. There are
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 2: going to be no days off from the news cycle. Hey, listen,
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 2: citizenship is active. You know. I remember the first time I.
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 3: Visited Israel it was an six And.
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 1: Look, there are a lot of people that have very
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: strong opinions about Israel in the moment because of what
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: happened in Gaza, and I respect that. But what I
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 1: want to drive at in Israel is an Israel. To
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: be a citizen is an active job. You were surrounded.
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 1: It's you know, being the only democracy sort of from
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: you know, one of the in that region, or or
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: certainly more democratic than than than other other entities in
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: that region. It is you've got to be a participant.
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 1: It's a there's an activist, there's an there's an activist
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: mindset to be a citizen in Israel. We had that
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: in this country for over one hundred years. You know,
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: when you read Detokol Democracy in America and he was
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 1: trying to, you know, sort of figure this out. And
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 1: he was this outside observer, you know, he marveled at
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 1: a few things, how interested and local we were and
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 1: sort of how active everybody was.
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 3: It was. It was participatory.
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 1: It does feel as if we got you know, and
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: I vacillate on this, Perhaps apathy is a sign of stability.
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 1: And it is not lost on me that our highest
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 1: turnouts over the last in my lifetime have all come
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 1: since the era of Trump. That the instability Trump is
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 1: is brought to the system has brought more people to
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 1: pay attention, and we have higher vote We've had higher
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: voter participation rates, pure and simple. It's interesting to me
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 1: that it's it's because people are nervous that they show
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 1: up to the polls, not because people are satisfied. And
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 1: so I I vacillate there on that, but I wonder
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: you know how to make people feel as if you know, hey, look,
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 1: citizenship is there's it is a job.
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 3: And you can't be passive.
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, vigilance is the price of freedom. About it? What's
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 2: your tagline? You say it all the time, Stay vigil
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 2: Stay stay vigilant.
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 3: And I'm going to build on why you say that?
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 3: What do you mean by it?
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 2: Well, because you know I would put it in in
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 2: these most focused terms. Somebody once said, you know, you
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 2: might not be into politics, but politics is into you, right,
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 2: And I think the reality that folks need to face,
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 2: either now or later, is that your democracy, your freedom,
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 2: your security, your economic prosperity, in my view, is under
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 2: direct threat right now.
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 3: Whether you know it or not.
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 2: There is a war going on in America for the
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 2: soul of America, for the future of our country. And
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 2: I would argue for freedom worldwide. So my job is
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 2: to is to fight for freedom foreign and domestics, supporting
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 2: you know, the freedom fighters in Ukraine and supporting protesters
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 2: in Minneapolis who are standing up for the constitutional rights.
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 3: In my view, this is a moment.
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 2: Some folks in generations say, I wish I lived in
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 2: you know, civil right's time. I wish I lived during Vietnam.
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 2: We are here now, We're here now. I used to
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 2: buy the way.
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 3: I was one of those people.
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I remember as a reporter, young reporter in the nineties,
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 1: I used to think, oh, man, I there's a part
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 1: of me that wishes I had I had something more
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: defining for the country to cover.
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 2: Little did I know.
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 3: And it is literally it is literally at your doorstep.
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 2: Right, this is the moment, you and I, You and I, Chuck,
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 2: let's break it down, right, talk about independent media.
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 3: They arrested Don Lemon.
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they can arrest you, they can arrest me, They
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 2: can arrest anybody with a substack account right, anybody who
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 2: speaks out, if you're if you're if you're a military
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 2: retiree like Senator Kelly, you could have posted something on
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 2: your Facebook and they could come after you for your retirement.
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 3: The important point, I think is that.
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 2: You're not Mark Kelly.
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 1: If they do that, Mark Kelly can at least shine
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 1: a light on this.
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 2: ICE has made it immediate. I think everybody can recognized
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 2: that ICE might knock at your door, and if not
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 2: your door or your neighbor's door, or they might be
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 2: outside of the end of your street, or they might
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 2: snatch up someone you know, or they might disrupt your
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 2: place of employment. I think that in the immediacy of
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 2: that threat and the clarity of that threat, without warrants,
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 2: without badges, without it feels unconstitutional, It feels unlawful, and
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 2: really importantly, Chuck, it feels deeply un American. And even
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 2: for people who can't call it what it is now
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 2: they're understanding that feels deeply un American, and it's inspiring
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 2: a new kind of patriotism that's really about a fight.
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 2: You've got to fight for it. And if you think
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 2: you can be a pedestrian right now, if you think
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 2: you're not on the battlefield, then you're the prey. Right.
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 2: And that's the approach I take for everybody in this
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 2: country right now, right, So what are you running for
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 2: office if it becomes viable for an independent Chuck? Right?
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 2: I mean, and that's the truth. Like I have thought
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 2: about running for office. I've been recruited by both parties.
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 1: Actually, you're a New York City resident, right.
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 2: I am a New York City resident, and I am
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 2: a political independent. If I was a billionaire, maybe I
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 2: could run against Kathy Hokel as an independent, and if
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 2: she was running against someone like Stephanic, maybe there's a
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 2: pathway for me. But the reality is, I'm trying to
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 2: build the infrastructure for people like me and for thousands
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 2: of others who want to run. So that's where I'm
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 2: focused right now, is you know, using my microphone to
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 2: fight for freedom and democracy and to try to create
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 2: a pathway for others. And that's really why what we're
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 2: building with independent veterans of America is so important. We
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 2: have to make it viable for people like man. Maybe
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 2: for you, Chuck, you know, I assume you're politically independent.
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 2: We need folks like you and the game as well,
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 2: but we're starting with veterans as a tip of the
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 2: spear because we think it's the easiest to understand.
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 1: It's I think that's the most incredible. Yeah, leaders, we
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 1: want to create a give them.
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 2: So we want to create a model for veterans that's
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 2: scalable for any independent American that wants to run for office.
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 2: So for now, I'm building the machine. I'm supporting my
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 2: brothers and sisters. I'm excited about the candidates that we've gotten.
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 2: I'll tell you one other thing, Chuck, I say this
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 2: a lot. I'm kind of like Zelenski. I don't need
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 2: a ride, I need AMMO. Right, we need ammunition for
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 2: this fight. And so letting people go say they want
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 2: to help you out, Independent Veterans of America dot org.
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 2: You can help us recruit, train, support independent veterans to
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 2: run for office, but also to be actors in their community.
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 2: And there's a campaign we just launched yesterday, Chuck, that
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 2: I think is important. We're focusing specifically on veterans because
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 2: one third of ICE agents are veterans. ICE is heavily
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 2: recruiting veterans. We're saying, don't join ICE, join us, join
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 2: us instead of Ice. You want to serve your community.
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 3: You want to lead for the people around you.
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 2: You want to do something that's truly patriotic and not
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 2: do something criminal that might end up putting you in
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 2: jail down the line. Don't join Ice, join us. We
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 2: need you, your country needs you. You don't have to
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 2: run for office, but you can start at school board.
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 2: And if that's not interesting to you, you can support
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 2: other people who can. And we are the future, Chuck,
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 2: I say that we're not moving the needle.
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 3: We are the needle.
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 2: And the future of politics in America is independent and
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 2: we're recruiting. So, Chuck, I hope you can run one day.
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 1: Look, man, your enthusiasm is infectious and your determination is
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 1: you know, let's let's just say that you strike me
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 1: as somebody that ought to be at the front of
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 1: this line, not just the not just the head recruiter.
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 2: Brother. Well, you know, I'm trying to be effective in
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 2: whatever way I can if that moment comes and I
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 2: can meet it, get those boys raised.
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 1: I do think focus on that this politics ain't great
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 1: for kids.
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 2: No, And look, Chuck, that that's a real thing too.
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 2: I got little kids, and you know that it's a
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 2: very difficult environment. But I also will tell you I'm
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 2: not kicking the can down the road. I do think
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 2: in this this year, in this moment, I want to
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 2: create hundreds of George Washington's right, hundreds of Dan Osborne's,
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 2: hundreds of mc craven's, and they're ready to go.
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 3: Chuck.
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 2: Every day we hear from more and said, you know what,
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 2: I never wanted to get in, but.
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 3: I'm in now.
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 2: And ice in particular has been a really activating threat
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 2: in a way I never could have imagined.
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 3: So I hope it's not just veterans.
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 2: I hope it's teachers and firefighters and even you know,
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 2: iconic media figures like yourself.
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 3: Paul Raykoff. Always fascinating to talk with you.
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 1: I always learned something, and more important, I always feel
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 1: a little bit better about me in America.
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 2: Well I feel the same, Chuck. Appreciate all your public service,
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 2: in your years of leadership in public service. Thank you, Chuck.
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 2: You got it.
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 1: And we got one more episode of Fallout right for
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 1: this season.
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 2: I haven't watched the last one.
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 3: Neither of I.
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 2: I no no worry, neither of I. It's so damn
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 2: good I have.
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm trying to is it real life or not.
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 2: I'll tell you what. As we talked about on my show,
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 2: it is is.
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 3: It has definitely got a lot of parallels to our
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 3: real life right now.
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 1: And it's sort of what I love about it is
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 1: I think it's sort of like, here's an extreme.
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 3: Ending if we take the wrong path.
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, if you saw a Handmaid's Tale, you
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 2: were like, oh my god, that could be our future.
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 2: Fallout is an even further extension of how bad it
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 2: can get if you don't stay vigilant.
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 1: Well, especially in the relationship with corporate America, which is
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 1: the most fascinating bad guy template that I feel like
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 1: all of Hollywood is shifting towards these days.
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 2: Oh yes, they become more corporatized. That's the oh yeah,
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 2: and the Epstein Files Or where do we watch Fallout?
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 2: By the way, we talked about this, Unfortunately you have
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 2: to watch it on Jeff Bezos's Prime.
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's an anti corporate screen on Jeff Bezos' Prime.
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 3: You can't make it up. Yeah.
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 2: Well, if you want to create the opposite of Jeff Bezos,
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 2: it's somebody like Dan Osborne, who's been the guy turning
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 2: the wrench and so that's going to be next season
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 2: on some network. We're going to do a different kind
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 2: of hero and they're not going to be the billionaires.
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 2: They're going to be the citizens. That's right. And the
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 2: music is really good and everything else is really good too.
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 3: I mean, it's so good.
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 2: It's it's very good. It is. It is, all right, brother,
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 2: talk soon, thank you, sir. M h m hm