Latest / College Is Fine, Everything's Fine / #71 I Procrastinate Therefore I Cram: How to Break the Procrastination Cycle with Dr. Shannon Bennet

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#71 I Procrastinate Therefore I Cram: How to Break the Procrastination Cycle with Dr. Shannon Bennet · College Is Fine, Everything's Fine

Procrastination with Dr. Shannon Bennett[00:00:00] I have been really, I have been really going back to some grad school folks. Clearly I've been feeling nostalgic. We just had one of my closest friends from uh, grads, hello. It Um, The closest did, it did sort of feel like grads. It did feel like a It does. Yeah.in. Not Boston, but grads school.andUm, So my friend James from grad school and now I have my dear friend Shannon, who was my office partner. She was, we, it is almost like we lived together. It felt like roommates because we were at grad school so much that it did feel like we were roommates in a way. Um, And we've just been in the trenches together.You were in my wedding. I was in your wedding. So we've become mothers together. We've gone through a lot, so we, you know, we keep in touch. You're one of the first people I try to find at any conference I go um, which is hilarious since we've had this podcast for two years that you weren't one of our guests. I'm so happy to behere. yeah, I'm [00:01:00] ex, I'm excited. I don't, I don't know too muchabout you, so maybe you could introduce yourself to our listeners. Shannon,. I'm Yeah. I am also a clinical psychologist. I am an assistant professor of psychology and clinical psychiatry at Weill Cornell Medical School, and I run a program. I'm the associate director of the New York Presbyterian Hospital Center for Youth Mental Health, which is. Very much focused on college age youth in this transition from adolescents to emerging adulthood.So we see kids of all ages, but the program was really created for young people in the transition between adolescents and young adulthood. So 18 to 28 year olds and, and all of the amazing, fun, exciting, scary things that happen during thisI know such a good fit. I feel like we could talk to you about a lot of things, but we've chosen today to talk to you about procrastination, which I think at some point in your life, even if you're not in college, you really are [00:02:00] susceptible to the pull of avoiding. So and I think when I hear that word, I know I think of a lot of different things, but maybe Shannon, you can kind of share like a definition of what procrastination is and maybe we could demystify some beliefs people have about procrastination. Yeah. Well, and I think Sarah, knowing me in graduate school knows that I have a lot of personal experience with procrastination.What we both Yeah, in addition to as many excellent students do, I think in terms of defining procrastination, it's not about, it's not a,certainly not a skills deficit per se. It's certainly not an aptitude deficit, but it, you know, procrastination means putting something off.now. And there's lotsFor another time that you could or should be doing right now. And there's lots of different things that can lead to procrastination, but it's not about being lazy or, you know, not being smart enough or not being skilled enough. So I think as psychologists you mystifying procrastination is a really important step in helping people learn how to do [00:03:00] better at controlling their tendencies towards procrastination.Do you find that people think of it as like a poor personality trait? You mentioned the lazy thing. Is that how people come in thinking like, this is just this huge flawed, it's because I have this X, y, and Z trait, I mean, first of all, it's so common. Like so much of what we deal with is anxiety, mood. All of these things are so common that we're not alone in these experiences. But I think procrastination can make people feel bad, in part because it. Sometimes makes our lives harder and makes our work harder, or because we feel like, why can't I just get this thing done?Or other people are getting things done around me and I'm struggling to move forward in this task or this stage of life, or this particular assignment, whatever it is that we're avoiding.Yeah, well you already let the cat outta the bag that you and I have both at times. Procrastinated, big shocker. Right. And so having the like all-nighter, [00:04:00] right, and I do think that there are times where it can be. I don't wanna say effective. Right. But you can kind of get away with procrastination. But you also mentioned that it can feel bad or kind of evoke a lot of anxiety.So are there things about procrastination that you think keep people doing it that feel like, oh, I kind of get away with it. And when do you start to notice a shift in that willingness to You'reThat's a, a great question. You're reminding me of a, a magnet that a friend gave me in college that said, I procrastinate, therefore I cram. And so yeah, we can get away with many people can get away with procrastinating. And, but then often to a certain point, and there may be consequences of the procrastination, both while we are avoiding the thing that we should be doing 'cause it might feel bad, or we might then start doing other things that maybe are good for us, like doing our laundry or cleaning our room, but maybe are not so good for us.Like I don't know any number of bad [00:05:00] habits that might be preferable to doing our work, but, so that can be a problem, but also the quality of the work maybe might not be as great as if we had been. Planning it out all along. Or we may be losing sleep or not taking as good of care of ourselves if we're staying up all night trying to get something done instead of, you know, scheduling it out over a longer period of time.So even if we're getting it done, there may be other consequencesthink too procrastination, particularly around this transition from high school to college. I don't know if you guys agree. There's so many more contingencies in high school that help us like stop the procrastinating, right? You see the tea teacher in the hallway and they're like, Hey, like I gave you that extension.Like, you know, you gotta hand it in. Or your parents are like, you have to do the laundry. You can't leave the house until the laundry's done. But then you get to college and particularly if you go to a big school, some professors will never know your name, right? Like they're not going to, their face is not gonna like, prime some shame or anxiety in you to make sure you hand something in.[00:06:00] And no one's, you know, hopefully getting mad at you about the pile of laundry on the floor. So I think that, that it really is a, a, I feel like a breeding ground for procrastination, even if you had it under control in high school, that there are some environmental factors that don't exist anymore that might have helped you kind of stay afloat.Potentially so many more distractions. Yes.and potentially so many more distractions or other things that we could be doing, right? If you're living with friends all around you, there's so many different activities that you could be doing. You'll find other people who may also be avoiding their work, where if you're living at home with your parents and it's homework time for everybody that maybe. There might be lessoptions, i was just thinking, so we, we do we hear students say a lot too, this idea of like, suddenly I have too much time. So I think that can sometimes make it feel like, oh, I can get to it later, I can get to it later. Like there is actually a lot more free time and so it can feel overwhelming from that perspective.And then suddenly you're like, wait, I, all that free time went away. [00:07:00] um, I, I'm curious if you have found that there's sort of one overriding reason why people procrastinate, or do you find that it varies depending on the person or the day?to theWell, like many things, I would guess that it's somewhat unique to the individual, but I. I will say that at its core, like many of the things that we do that don't serve us well in the long term, it is in large part 'cause we're avoiding something that's uncomfortable. And so for some people that may be self-doubt or I worry that I'm not gonna do this well, it may be perfectionism.If I can't do it perfectly on the first try, then I'm gonna. Avoid it or I fear that I won't do it perfectly on, at, on the first try. So we put it off. For other people it may be boredom, it may be, once I get this thing done, then that leads to this next thing that also feels aversive or uncomfortable.So we all have to kind of think for ourselves in addition to [00:08:00] all of the other organizational skills and time management. Skills. There's lots of concrete, boring strategies that many of us know that can help us get work done in a timely, organized fashion. But what might be unique to each of us is what is that thing that we're avoiding?Is it a feeling, anxiety, depression, self-doubt? We may just not have the energy or the motivation to get our work done if we're feeling low.Is it the fear that it won't be as good as someone else's, or that someone will judge it harshly and we're avoiding that judgment from someone else? There's so many.Those I think are potentially unique to the individual, those emotional aspects of procrastination that we might not even really be so aware of in the moment.You know, as you were saying that I also was ha, I had sort of a, a reel. Of people I've worked with, or even me for different reasons, like as you were saying, that's different reasons. I was like, oh yeah, I could just sort of see their faces or remember a time when it was about that, [00:09:00] or, you know, if, if I even start this paper, I, I know I'm gonna fail.So they just are so worried about creating a failing paper that they almost create a situation that would make it more likely to um, do something. So it's. Uh, It was just interesting as you were saying that I suddenly just noticed like So it just, it sounds like what potentially might be useful is that the next time you either procrastinate or you have the urge to procrastinate is to kind of reflect on like what's actually going on for you emotionally or thoughts that you might have. You know, I, I think that I saw a patient yesterday and they're like, I like. My mom just said like something about like the Nike slogan, just do it. She's like, it's such a simple task, like why just do it? You know, like Right. And just like oversimplifying, like, okay, like of course, like, I mean, even for me, like making a phone call sometimes or responding to an email, that, and if I could just do it, I would Right.That the, like, I really need to like reflect in some way as like what, what actually is getting in the way? [00:10:00] And it seems like. Trying to pay attention to that is one solution. To then do what? Like what are some maybe like three-ish ways? Like what could somebody kind of take from, okay, now they know that their procrastination is a problem and they have a goal to kind of shift away from the behavior.What would you recommend end? Well, I guess first in terms of that reflection, 'cause it also.moment. Yes.I think is probably the last thing that we wanna do in that moment. We wanna do something that's more preferable, right? We wanna do something fun or something that will feel better than the uncomfortable feeling that the work or the task is bringing up in us.So just to, to acknowledge that. But if we were to do that, we could use strategies like mindfulness, if that's a tool that's you're familiar with, or even journaling, writing down what are three reasons why I hate this right now, or. Three things I'd rather be doing as clues to why this is feeling so bad in the moment.Because that may then lead [00:11:00] to different strategies. If we're feeling anxious, that's different than if we're feeling depressed and not motivated than if we're having self-doubt or we're worried about what other people are going to think of us. Like all of those might then lead us to different strategies for dealing with whatever it is that.We learn about ourselves in what's maybe underlying avoidance and procrastination. Of that I think would then be in addition to some of the other strategies that might help us just do it, like goal setting, breaking tasks down into smaller steps. Picking one thing, just getting started, lots of other strategies we could talk about.About those, you know, in another episode, or we can talk about them now, but there's lots of other ways we can organize our time once we've kind of reflected on what it, is it actually that I'm avoiding. Is it this task or something larger than that?um, because I do, I I agree. It's so hard, even though people do want sort of the [00:12:00] TikTok version of like top three ways to stop procrastinating. Um, And we are, we are trying not to do that here, right? Because it is, it is important to think through. To your point, part of figuring out why you're procrastinating is then figuring out the specific skill that be could be helpful for you, which might be completely different than someone else that said.If someone is just feeling like, ugh, not motivated, is there, you know, I was just working with somebody. Who's had to really come up from a long kind of, you know, a time where she just had to get through a hurdle and to look at all this work was so overwhelming for her, and she just started to feel like, what's the point?Right? Like, what's the point? So if you have somebody who has really figured out that it's because it feels so overwhelming and they just don't think they can do it, or they're starting to think what's the point? Where would you start with them?good questionI think that's a, again, another really good question because I, I often come back to.in this firstSo like, [00:13:00] what's your why? Why, why are you in this position in the first place? And anytime we're gonna make ourselves or try to make ourselves do something that's uncomfortable, face something that feels anxiety provoking or uncomfortable, it's.if we canIdeal. Maybe not easier to do that if we can hold on to some why. What, why did we take this class in the first place? Why did we, you know, come to this school and is there , a longer term goal here that maybe we can look ahead to? So that brings so values. What is it about this that is important to me that if I get this done will feel good to me?That it's not just like. Checking a task off a list, and maybe it is, but hopefully it's in the service of something that is of value to us. I, I want to complete this degree, I wanna work towards this job. Or maybe I just wanna get this done so I can move on to the thing that's really important to me.How, how does this action align with what's important and meaningful in [00:14:00] our lives?I love that. What's your why? And then what about somebody who feels like there's a social anxiety element to it? Would it be something similar, different little additional thing? What would, where would, where would you Yeah, that I think would be a little bit different. So then we wanna think about, well, what am I really worried about here? If I'm thinking about what are other people going to think about this if I do it? And we're really worried about that judgment. Reflecting on why it's important to us might still be helpful, but only because I think additionally, because no matter what anyone else thinks about it, this is important to me because X, Y, and Z, and I'm here because this is important to me for X, Y, and Z.And sure how a professor grades it or how someone evaluates it might be important. But it's, you know, getting it done is al It's also important what we think about it and why it's important to me. So again, we can also say other people's judgments don't mean as much as my judgments of myself and probably they [00:15:00] won't judge it as harshly as I fear that they will.Those are strategies or coping thoughts that we could use. But maybe thinking about the values in a different way, no matter what anybody else thinks. This is important to me because of X, Y, z.Yeah,something we probably all commonly see and I feel like more now than ever is the tendency to be perfectionistic. And so what about, what about the student that's highly perfectionistic and can't even start a task because of their rigidity around? How they're going to complete it and the outcome.Yeah, I see this a lot and sometimes people are aware of it and sometimes they're not. Sometimes students will say to me, you know, I'm just fearful that this won't be perfect. And so I can't get started. My, I don't know exactly what I'm going to write, so I'm not gonna write anything at all. And other times we may not be aware that that's why we're.Not writing anything, but we fear that if it's not perfect or we don't get the grade that we're hoping for, then it almost feels better to not try in some respects. 'cause then we [00:16:00] haven't messed it up if we never even tried. And then I think we have to recognize that nothing is perfect. Nobody's perfect a lot, and that can be really, really hard, but especially with certain, with writing tasks, a lot of it is subjective.You just have to get started and that's so hard. But even if we start by just like writing nonsense or writing whatever incomplete thoughts are in our head, sometimes just writing words down will then lead. To generating more ideas and it is often easier and I try to do this and it is really hard, but just writing anything as imperfect and messy as it might look, it's often easier to then go back and edit it and make it kind of more cohesive or hang together and correct.You know, punctuation and make full sentences and, and sound paragraphs, but we'll be further along if we've gotten the hang of writing a rough draft or an outline or [00:17:00] Writing the purposefully sort of bad quote unquote, bad rough draft. I, I don't remember who this was, and it was, I, I almost should have asked this teacher. When I went back to my reunion, he told me about this story of this uh. who knows if it's true. But anyways, it's worth it until I get here. Who could never get, he could never get started.He would just look at a blank canvas and feel like deer in headlights about it. Similar to how I feel when I'm looking at a blank Google doc, right? It's uh, where do I Um, And apparently his wife would come and just take the brush and just. Make a mark on the page, sometimes she'd slash or give us like, you know, throw some paint on there.And then from that he was able to start. Just something about that. And so I always like to think like, hey, if the, if the masters, of course I can't remember his name, so maybe he's not that famous after all. But if he needed that, then that's okay. We can do that too. Like what can you do just to sort of start, throw anything on the alright. I know we're all trying to not procrastinate Yeah.I was just thinking about one other idea I'll just throw out there 'cause. [00:18:00] Quick is that I think sometimes I tell myself if I were talking to someone or if I was texting a friend about this idea, I would be, you know, I would be texting for hours or, and, and how would I just write this in a text to someone else?Sometimes that feels more safe than I'm writing this. Super important paper essay for a professor. It's another, it kind of reminded me of the mark on the page. Just another way that we can get started and then go back and look at our ideas and we have content there that can then help us. We can build on that.And maybe think about a less intimidating audience can help us I love that,and I'm, I'm so happy we kind of ended with talking about writing because I think. A lot of high school students don't realize how much writing usually is involved in college, and that tends to be the assignments I see that have the most procrastination. Um, And I'm hoping that our listeners got some useful tips to kind of examine their procrastination and have some ideas of directions they can go [00:19:00] into so that, you know, their 20 page research paper does not kind of creep up at them at the end of the semester, and they only have two nights to When you've seen people try these strategies, right? Because a lot of times it's sort of like, eh, I kind of know what I'm doing with the pro. I know how to cram. You know? Have you seen people feel any benefit from it, or what have you noticed for those people who've been able to shift away from this coping or avoid and coping strategy?SaidWell, I guess the, the flip side of what we said earlier, that in addition to maybe getting work done more easily or on time feeling better about it in the process and being able to go back and, and not and revise your work or have that opportunity to make it how you want it to beprocess and feel good about that process.pride and relief.Those are good things to feel.Yeah. What I, I wanna feel, I love the idea of pride and relief. If I could have that at a pill, I [00:20:00] would take it. I would just procrastinate and then take that pill and feel pride and relief. But I guess we have to earnit. Shannon,can you get, can we get together and try on our bridesmaid Oh my God.a drink? Yeah. Or a picture of you guys in your shared office space in grad school.Back.Oh my goodness. I'll have to go back and see if I can find Alright, well thanks for being on.Go through the Um, Alright, well everyone have a good night and all you guys who are listening, we will hopefully this is a good episode to start you off on the right track And Shannon, we'll have you back on.I would love it. ThanksAlright, thank you.