Latest / The Growth Project / Episode 392: Play to Win, Not to Avoid Losing with Coach Mike Noonan

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Episode 392: Play to Win, Not to Avoid Losing with Coach Mike Noonan · The Growth Project

• 0:00
  we as coaches have to maybe the course has, but the decisions are being made on the field by the players and it is.
• 0:07
  It is such a metaphor for life or game. And that's why I'm so passionate about it, and that's why I love it so much.
• 0:16
  welcome to the growth project. This is Milt Lauter with my good friend,
• 0:20
  as well as the head coach of men's soccer at Clemson University.
• 0:24
  Mike Noonan, Hall of Famer.
• 0:26
  my goal was for you to get a chance to coach the U.S. men's team one day. I don't know if I'm going to have enough, pull for that.
• 0:33
  would love to see you have that opportunity. So I think you're a third time guest. You probably are the or the, that's probably the most guest we've had visit.
• 0:39
  So thanks for making yourself available.
• 0:42
  Wow. I didn't realize I'm on that, the pedestal of the growth project. But, but I love, love speaking with you, Milton. And the audience, I think we do is fantastic. And I listen to it all the time because it's really, really helpful. Well, you've been such a blessing in my life and have expanded, not only my understanding of sports psychology and how it plays out in terms of, sports and life and developing the young men that we have a chance to interact with.
• 1:11
  But except expanding my soccer knowledge, I think admittedly, some of the things I laugh about over the years, the first time you wanted me to come in and talk about
• 1:20
  goal setting and and I'm running a little bit late as on what to do. And, and I see Liam and, Jonesy in the, in the room, and I'm like, wait, where's Coach Nunez?
• 1:29
  Like, oh, he's talking to the team. So what's he talking to my son about? Goals. And I'm like, oh my gosh. So I'm burst in the door. This is like 2010 or 11 like your first or second year. And you give me that great stare that is like, we didn't know each other that well yet. You're staring me down and I'm like, hey, coach, sorry I'm late and I'm sorry.
• 1:48
  I know you want me to talk about goal setting. And Jonesy and Liam said, you're already talking. And you looked at me with this complete stare like you are an idiot. I'm talking to our team about where we score goals, and I look up on the on the screen and you're breaking it down. I'm like, oh, I got to get used to this language.
• 2:07
  Well, you've never been an idiot. You've only had value. I can go in there and and again, we at 17 years of education, I think, we can call you a semi expert now in our sport. Yeah, I'm getting better. Like I used the other day. I was so proud. I was talking to to a company and I was like, hey, you got to get on the front foot.
• 2:25
  So I'm, I'm get I'm getting better. But, it's it's been an amazing journey just to kind of watch what you've built at Clemson, but really wanted to take you call me last week and said, hey, milk. Hey, what do you think happened with the US men's team against Belgium? What do you what do you think really?
• 2:42
  Was going on, there was a completely different team and we had a conversation. I know that's where we want to go, but but a couple things to talk about before we get there. Just your overall observations. I know you got to go to a game down in Atlanta. I think that was England in Argentina. I believe.
• 2:58
  yeah.
• 2:58
  I got I got to three.
• 3:00
  Oh you got three. Yeah I got Morocco, Canada down in Houston and I got, Switzerland and Colombia out in Vancouver, as well as the Argentina England game. Atlanta those great. Well, and so your thought of having this and hosting this, what were your overall thoughts on the on the whole experience.
• 3:18
  Well I think the games were phenomenal right. I mean the actual games in the in the play throughout the games was sensational. What the World Cup does, no matter where it is, brings the world together like no other sporting event. Maybe the Olympics, but if not, it's not the same as the World Cup because of the the passion that every nation holds and and I think that for the United States, I can remember 1994 when the World Cup was here last, and it was almost a novelty.
• 3:52
  And out of that came the MLS and the professional league here, which is now taking a grip. And we've taken steps and stages. Right there was the Beckham factor when Beckham signed with LA. And then obviously the Messi factor right. Which ratcheted the MLS up even more. But it's going to be interesting. This World Cup is going to leave a legacy and the legacy is going to leave.
• 4:15
  Is that for the last five weeks this has been the sport on the sporting landscape. I mean, the British Open was played and there was a winner crowned just you can't even find it on the news. Right. Because it's the World Cup final and I think that our country embraced it. I was getting telephone calls and texts from Jim from Greenville.
• 4:36
  What about this rule? What about that? And and there were people who were just fascinated with the pageantry and with the what goes into this World Cup? And it was really the first time a lot of people in this country were exposed to it, that in the fact that I think there were certain points for the US were playing where I said to my staff and I said to others that it was the best I've ever seen our national team play, and I'm really proud of that.
• 5:07
  And I think our country should be really proud of that. It was a disappointing ending right? But for the US, but it certainly wasn't a disappointing ending yesterday because the right team won. The best team won. Yeah. And it was a great display of our sport. Yeah I I've always thought if we could as human beings across the world, even in America, think about and focus on the things that we have in common and focus on the things that unite us instead of divide us.
• 5:33
  Doesn't mean there aren't challenges and different views and philosophies. You know, I've had some great conversations and debates over the years which I've thoroughly enjoyed, but to me, I think that was great to see at least what America is supposed to be about on full display. And people from all over the world come in and experiencing that and have enjoying the game, the passion and the energy to watch, we're just brilliant and and so much fun to kind of sit and learn to just see the energy, that it brought.
• 6:03
  So, I appreciate your observations. And I love the thought that, hey, you saw us play some of the best soccer we've played.
• 6:10
  no question. And and again, you know, I'm curious to see what is that legacy and where do we go with the sport in the United States. And does it help, you know, tick another box moving the MLS forward.
• 6:24
  How does it evolve the college game, which is going through a lot of changes now, and what that whole ecosystem will look like moving forward. And I really think that the World Cup left a footing and a foundation that, you know, there's only going to be great things to build upon. So, so one question I just thought about, as you watch this and I know how you watch the game more as a coach than as a fan.
• 6:49
  What's maybe 1 or 2 things you're going to take away from all the soccer you watched? And I don't want to give any way secrets here, but but what's something that really stood out to you about the way the game was played that you may try to put into play for, for your program and your team?
• 7:03
  I'm a sports fan, right?
• 7:04
  We're all sports fans. Anybody who watches the World Cup has got some sporting fandom in them. And the cliche and the adage that defense wins championships, right? The the Spanish team had seven shutouts, only conceded one goal. Now they played attractive soccer. They had young Romanians, Marshall. And they had some amazing players. But the fact that in every sport right, every team sport defense wins championships.
• 7:35
  And if you watch the game yesterday, I think I think Spain, they said they only had like 14 or 17 shots against them in the entire tournament that were on goal. Argentina, one of the best teams in the world, only had two shots and none on goal yesterday, with Messi on the team. And if you watched the game yesterday, it was what we call counter-pressing.
• 7:58
  Yeah, Spain had most of the ball but as soon as they lost the ball, yes, Argentina couldn't make two passes without Spain winning the ball back. And so I think that's that's certainly one of the great observations. And then I watch coaches. Right. And we're going to talk about this it's such a player directed game that it's really hard for coaches to have an impact other than at halftime.
• 8:25
  And this made up hydration break thing that they had in this World Cup. But kind of watching the decisions that some of the teams made. And I think we're going to talk about this. Yeah. You know, focusing on either not wanting playing not to lose or playing to win. Yes. And that is always you talked about front foot right.
• 8:50
  And and being true to yourself. So we hear about that and every you know every sport. And I think the teams that did that advance the furthest. And the final thing I'll say is that it's the representation. I think the United States was another step to go in the fact that I feel strongly that we played right to represent the United States of America.
• 9:15
  Our team did, and we were proud to do that. We played right to continue to engage people in our sport and to grow our sport here. That was the purpose. That's not the purpose for every other country, for every other country. They wanted to win for their people. Yeah, and that's a difference. And you know, that bring back to Clemson.
• 9:37
  Because when we play this fall, we want to win for our people. And our people are Clemson.
• 9:43
  Yet not just to represent but we just we we know we're going to become our best version of ourselves when we sacrifice to be a part of something greater. And so be proud of how you wear the ball. But remember why you're here.
• 9:56
  You're here to win it. Imagine what it would feel like if you won. If you win for everybody that you represent, correct? Yeah. And I think that that's that's something that we have to keep in focus. And it's very hard for coaches, managers, bosses to keep that principle in focus while you're trying to do all the things it takes to to get to that point.
• 10:18
  Yeah. Well, I look forward to seeing the defense, come to life here on the field. This year. So let's break down a couple of games. So so let's just start yesterday. You know, the final Spain, Argentina. Your thoughts about the strategies and tactics going into the game. It looks like Spain executed their game playing really well.
• 10:36
  You know, just give the casual observer like me some thoughts of the match up and how you thought the game played out. Yeah, the game played out the way that I thought. Other than the scoreline, I thought the Spain would score more goals. And I think you saw that, hot goalkeeper can keep a team, you know, that has a goalkeeper in their sport in the game.
• 10:57
  We see it in the NHL. We see it in soccer quite a bit. But I think Spain, Spain was true to what they did throughout the tournament. They brought the French team in the semifinals to their knees with unbelievable amounts of talent on it because they were a team and they didn't they didn't, go any. I mean, it was the exact same plan against Argentina was to dominate the ball, which they did.
• 11:24
  But when the ball turned over, they did not let Argentina in in their attacking half of the field. And I think its structure is purpose. But more than anything else, it was a fantastic team effort throughout the tournament. And Argentina, on the other hand, had they're an experienced team and their experience did them well in their semifinals and throughout the tournament, because they are they are the king of the dark arts of the game.
• 11:55
  But I think so. So it's like so explained the dark arts a little bit to, to when you say the dark arts of the game, but the Argentinian spirit and culture and how they show up and how they fight. But tell us what you mean by that. Well, that's what it is, is that they're willing to fight to the death to win the game in any way, shape or form.
• 12:15
  And the dark arts are, you know, the things Americans don't love about the game, right? The guys on the ground, the guys wasting time, the yellow cards, the pushing the edge right to the edge of the fouling to disrupt the game. And and just finding different ways, you know, they knew that Spain was probably a better team and that the tournament and probably taken more out of Argentina than out of Spain.
• 12:41
  So they were going to do anything they could to make sure that the game stayed at zero zero, and hoped that Messi could find a way to win it for them and or get it to penalties. And, and they did a fantastic job until they got the guy sent off for being a little overzealous, and he thought that was the right call on the red card there.
• 13:01
  Yes. Yeah. Well, yeah. Well, it's a second. It's a second yellow. Second yellow okay. Yeah, yeah. Both yellow cards were deserved. And and you know, he's, Martinez is a passionate player as all Argentinians are. But, you know, there is a line and he across the line. Yeah. Well he was he was out of control to me it seemed the whole game.
• 13:19
  And so you just knew that that that passion I think that's the hardest part is how do you manage that motion, that emotion and that passion throughout the game?
• 13:28
  And I think the second, the second foul was frustration. Yeah. Argentina could not get the ball back from the Spaniards and it had gone, you know, almost 100, you know, 90 minutes.
• 13:38
  And and that's that's a frustration comes out. It comes out, like I said, not just in our sport, in all sports, when another team is dominating you, when you when you want to do the same thing to them and it just becomes frustrating. And I think he let that, you know, the emotional control that you and I talk about all the time is it's hard sometimes to control those situations.
• 13:59
  So one just question more on the on the, the counter-pressing what what made Spain so effective at shutting Argentina down? And what could maybe Argentina could have done differently?
• 14:10
  talk a lot about the, the, the soccer brain. Right. And, and the speed of their brain with the ball to keep the ball, but more important, the speed of the brain and angles to shut the ball, the passing angles out of the Argentinian team.
• 14:28
  And you know, they didn't man Mark Messi, but they knew that everything was going to go through Mexico. I mean, I think he had three touches or four touches in the first half of the game. So, you know, it was tactically a masterclass as it was against France. I mean, different day, an incredible coach who's grown up through their youth systems and, and, you know, got won in the Olympics with many of the same players who he had there.
• 14:54
  The consistency of that in the Spanish team and in the Spanish country has now led to Spain holding the World Cup title for both men and women.
• 15:05
  which is pretty remarkable. You know, program. Yeah. So. So what do you think? I remember a game last year or two years ago. I think we took like at Clemson, 25 shots.
• 15:15
  I don't know how many will go and didn't score. And and so I was thinking a little bit about that yesterday as Spain just kind of kept attacking and attacking and and and the goalkeeper and you're like just standing on his head in that process, talking about the frustration for that as a team building, you're getting chances.
• 15:34
  How do you handle that part of the game?
• 15:37
  Well, again, that was Western Michigan last year in the NCAA tournament that eliminated us. Won one zero. Oh, wow. Okay. And many other times last. That's for the Queen's game. I mean, there were there were like 3 or 4 queens is the one I was thinking about.
• 15:53
  What happens what happens is that again, the frustration again continues to mount and staying consistent to the principles that you're trying to play to instead of going outside of those is is something that the Spanish team did not.
• 16:07
  They were disciplined and they were going to get they were they're hoping they were going to get their opportunity and eventually they they did. But what happens to the players on the field is that they start pressing and they get, you know, we have to score now or we, you know, and players get more individualistic and, you know, they take more risks.
• 16:29
  They have to take more responsibility on themselves. And and again, what you're really doing is creating more chaos within in your team. And you know, it's really, really hard in our sport when those things are happening right. To change things because you don't have a timeout. Yeah. And you can't stop the game. So let's say, you know, it can be it can be frustrating watching it from the sideline and certainly frustrating when, you know, like you said, the goalkeeper standing on the head, players are throwing their bodies and sacrificing their bodies to block shots.
• 17:06
  And you know, it can get in our sport because it is a low scoring sport. Getting that first goal and then really getting the second goal, is one determine, you know, more outcomes or not. So it's maybe one thing we got to think about is how do we prepare the team for those opportunities? When you're dominating the game, you're controlling it.
• 17:28
  How do you stay patient? And look at the reasons you've been successful and not sacrifice that. That's a good thing to think about. Prepare for.
• 17:36
  And I and again, I think it really is mental because the, the, the tactical application should stay the same. And, and the technique and the skill for you to be dominating the game.
• 17:48
  There's a reason for it. Right. So I do think that it's being able to and that's why they, you know, golf has 18 holes in soccer is 90 minutes long because you get in those late, you know, parts of the game where you have to keep that mental focus and concentration. And if it wavers at all, particularly under the emotional, you think of the World Cup, the emotional, stressors and the physical stressors.
• 18:17
  And I think that's what really did Argentina yesterday. They're an experienced team. They are the holders of the World Cup. But the man's 39 years old, and he's been playing in the heat every third day in the heat. And their team was older than the Spanish team. Spain had 219 year olds on the field. Right. And it's just amazing.
• 18:40
  You know, their their maturity is 19, but the Argentinian team looked slow and looked a little bit old and looked like their time had come. So, you know, I think just a quick thought for most of our listeners who are not playing in the World Cup or not coaching at the highest level, that happens so often in our business strategy or in our life, that we let the emotions dictate our reactions and our responses instead of kind of informing us, hey, this isn't working.
• 19:09
  We we we we compromise our game plan. We change our strategy. We're reacting to the demands of the competition or the market or whatever. Instead of being able to evaluate and say, okay, what little tweak can I make right now and not throw out the whole game? Plan the goals. I'm not getting the immediate results. And I think that's what I love.
• 19:31
  The connection between sports and life and business is like, okay, what can we learn from these lessons and how might they apply to me? How am I handling my emotions? What is my mental preparation? Who am I leaning on for support? How do I not react just to the moment and make sure I'm playing the long game? Or as we say, all the time for 90 minutes, or as long as it takes.
• 19:53
  And that's the beauty of our sport, because all those things have to be done by the players on the field. Yes, the coaches and leaders have to do all those things, maybe times to right as you as you thinking about impacting the game with substitute, you have to keep your emotions in those. And
• 20:11
  we as coaches have to maybe the course has, but the decisions are being made on the field by the players and it is.
• 20:19
  It is such a metaphor for life or game. And that's why I'm so passionate about it, and that's why I love it so much.
• 20:25
  And that is one thing. I'll give you a credit, because I know the intensity and the passion with which you live life and how you coach. But when I observe you on the sidelines, it's it's a very calm, at least exterior relaxed.
• 20:39
  Yeah. Understanding that if you or not, you know, what do we sell all the time? It's not going to happen through you unless it happens first within you. That it that you don't want to ask your players to do something you're not capable of doing. And I think that's experienced, too. I wasn't always that way as a coach when I when I was younger, and it's also having good mentors like you and Bill and people who who do observe me and, and help me stay centered and grounded in the most high pressure situations.
• 21:11
  Yeah. So much.
• 21:13
  So let's get back to, let's go to specific game. England. Argentina. You were there. Just the at this. What was that like? Absolutely fascinating. From a coaching perspective, in a game perspective, because England dominated the first 60 minutes or so of the game and then they scored and they were one nil up. And I don't think they were prepared for that moment as a team.
• 21:42
  No. When when the game was even, they were fine and they were in Argentina wasn't really getting a kick of the game. And this was where I leaned on, you know, and I do think that fatigue played a lot into this. I mean, the England team played at altitude in Mexico City. They played with ten men down and and Mexico beating, you know, a host country and and again emotional output.
• 22:07
  That is exhausting right. They scored the goal in the 65th minute and just stopped playing. Yeah. And why that happened. The coach is getting a lot of heat online and over in England because, they went into a defensive shell. But really that's what happened on the field with the players. And if you look at the defending and the lack of energy, that, that England played with from that point forward, it was inevitable that Argentina, with the talent they had and their, experience at that point never say die the fight the, you know, the Argentinean spirit with, you know, it felt in the stadium like there were four Argentinians to one English
• 22:54
  player before the game. And then when, when after England scored, it was like they were 5 to 1 in the stands. I mean, it was so loud and and I think that I think again, England just went on the back foot and tried to not lose the game with a one nothing lead. Instead of, you know, if there's anything, our trainer came in here the next day or has looked at me, goes, there's one thing I learned from Coach Noonan is that when you're up a goal, you go and get the second one.
• 23:21
  Yeah,
• 23:21
  yeah. And I think there's a couple of things. One, that fatigue. What did Churchill say. Fatigue makes cowards of us all. And so when you run out of energy it's hard. It takes energy to be courageous. It takes energy to be brave. It takes energy to stay focused on your game plan. So I think that's really important.
• 23:38
  How are you managing your energy, too? I think you you said it best. They weren't prepared for that moment. At that moment when the magnitude of the moment becomes greater than what you were doing in the moment, it can shift away from your game plan is just human nature. Our brain remembers, created to protect us from threat.
• 23:59
  It's human nature just to hold on to what you have. And and the coach probably didn't, create that mindset, but I imagine with a defensive substitutions, he reinforced the mindset. That's exactly what happened. That is why you're such a genius, is that it? You know, if he had brought on I mean, there's a big controversy that that, soccer didn't play in the game.
• 24:25
  Who's one of their best attacking players? Didn't start the game and then didn't play in the game. And then in the third place game, he scored three goals. Wow. Against France. So there's some controversy there. But if he had brought Saka on, instead of Dan Byrne, the extra defender, the message he would have been sending his team is that we're going to win this thing.
• 24:52
  Now we're going to defend this thing, you know, and I think that was a critical error to that. And like you said, it wasn't just that. I mean, the players. And you've got to think about this in the court and in the course of the quarterfinals or the round of 16 game against Mexico, right. They went down to ten men.
• 25:12
  They were up a goal. They had to defend because they were down a man. And that's what they did against Norway in the in the round of eight. Right. They scored late. They didn't score early. They scored an extra late against Norway. Yeah. Right. And and then they had to defend for a short period of time and that's what they did.
• 25:34
  So they scored with 30 minutes left and they said okay now it's time to hang on. Wow. And now it's time to defend because we've got the lead and we did it the last two games. And it's just again, you talk about human nature and the human mind. It just went into all right, it's time to defend. And I think you need in those situations you have to prepare for two.
• 25:56
  Well not just necessary, but I think as a coach you have to prepare for two things. You have to prepare for adversity and when things aren't going your way. And we'll talk about that with the US. And you have to prepare for situations when things are going your way and maybe you don't expect it. And when there's that reaction needs to be and I would have brought an attacker on again.
• 26:19
  Yeah. I don't want to second guess I'm not Thomas to go. This is way advanced than I am this coach in in the World Cup. His coach in England world Cup. But Monday morning quarterbacking you bring an attacking presence on because of the messages sent to your team and the message it sends the other team. Yeah. And and also, you got to
• 26:37
  know who you're playing as well
• 26:38
  you know, they are going to quit and they look for those moments to attack you.
• 26:43
  Have you, as you've described the Argentinian experience so well you got to know who's on the other side of the ball. And you, I imagine you could feel the momentum in the in the stands, in the inter, just like Argentina. Never quit believing they were going to win. It sounded like, yeah. And and again you're studying your opponent.
• 27:01
  Argentina was down with 30 minutes to go two nothing to Egypt in the game beforehand and came back and won the game. Right. So you know you're going to get you know you're going to get it. So you just got to keep giving it. You got to keep giving it and keep giving it and let the cards fall where they may.
• 27:16
  And again, I think that some people would say that maybe tactical suicide, but you can still defend while you're attacking. Right. Two troops can be the same. Absolutely. And I think to me, why don't we talk like the research suggests in our life and in the game, you're going to grant what you didn't do instead of what you did.
• 27:33
  Yeah, it and what you didn't do is you didn't really play to win. And you changed completely the mindset that you had. The other thing that I think it's so important for all of us that you have, it's hard to prepare for what you can't predict. And so what great coaches do and great players do, we got to visualize success.
• 27:52
  And how do we keep that mindset? What were the reasons that contribute to that success and how do we learn from that? Now you don't want to be reckless, but you also have to prepare for adversity. And so there's a huge difference in a reaction and a response. And maturity means we respond the right way. We stay focused on the way we play the game.
• 28:13
  We stay focused on the things we can control.
• 28:15
  it's so difficult to do all that. And to think that all through is games going as a games going on and and you're absolutely out of legs. Yeah. And that's why the substitutions again needed to be, I think more in an attacking fashion with fresh legs and, and defending fashion because the attacking players, they were exhausted.
• 28:38
  Yeah. I mean England's route to that point was exhausting and they had played so well for 65 minutes to get the lead. And so, you know, it's a fascinating it's a fascinating, you know, reflection of our game, but also a fascinating reflection of what happens. You know, what I see in other sports. And yes, you know, I love being at Clemson and being a lab that has such great coaches and has such great sport.
• 29:06
  The constantly learning and constantly examining, you know, different situations. Well, I think, you know, there's so many reasons that I love working with you and appreciate you, but that curiosity, you're constantly evaluating, observing. So I love kind of getting this, this knowledge of, of your thoughts on the game. So let's let's turn to kind of the U.S. men's team and its experience in the World Cup and more specifically with you.
• 29:31
  And I want to really talk about today was a little bit of the red card, controversy, of of not only getting the red card and whether it was the right call or not, but just some of the spirit of the game, the history of the game, whether there ever AP or how that it might affect the preparation, how that might affect the mindset.
• 29:50
  So just overall, you said earlier you thought you observed the U.S. men's teams playing some of the best soccer it's ever played. But what did you notice that seemed different or felt different? Yeah, I think, one we were at home, right. And we absolutely came out of the gate flying against Paraguay. And again, the decision making the the athleticism, every part of the game.
• 30:15
  And that's a Paraguay team that beat Germany and sent Germany home. Right. And and took France score one nothing game. And we dominated. And so out of the gate there was this huge feelgood factor. And we I mean again all the things we were talking about the Spain team. We played quickly, we played efficiently. Our counter press was really good.
• 30:37
  Paraguay couldn't get into our half. All those things that dominate a soccer game. We did. And then our performance. Our next two performances, though, we lost to Turkey. It was the second team. You know, we played really well against Australia again and so the confidence builds within the the camp, the confidence built within the the country.
• 30:59
  and then we get to the Belgium game. We're playing at home. We haven't had to travel as much as everybody else. So, you know, one of the benefits of being a host country and the feelgood factor was just way, way high. And, and, you know, to be honest with you, I think if you want to Vegas, I think we were actually favored in the game over Belgium, despite Belgium having beaten us a couple months earlier soundly.
• 31:27
  But it wasn't our full team. And the fact that we hadn't beaten European competition in about 15 games leading up to the World Cup. So those two factors, you know, gave me caution, but I was like, I was caught up like everybody else. Right. The red card, before we get the red card, there's a couple of questions I want to ask you there.
• 31:49
  First one, the strategy of playing the second team against Turkey. Yeah, I think that was part of continuing to build the, the cohesiveness of the group. Okay. Right. And I think that was really important because you didn't play the whole second team. But the margins in our team, as in most teams are not that great between the first 11 and the next 11.
• 32:15
  Right. But continuity in our game is really important. If you make too many changes, you lose that continuity. And, and I think that, you know, I think that was one of the best parts about that Spanish team and the fact that, like, there are guys on the bench who came off the bench, they didn't care whether they're on the bench.
• 32:33
  They start the game, didn't start the game. It was irrelevant. And I think the US had some of that going at the beginning of the tournament too. It's like, all right, let's went, let's, let's we all wear the same uniform and let's it doesn't make a difference who's doing it as long as we're doing it together.
• 32:48
  as though Spain players were taken off, I imagine the biggest game of their life wanted to make a difference.
• 32:54
  What do they do? They hug the other guy coming on the team and Patrick on the back, and I'm like, okay, that shows a connection, the chemistry, the willingness to sacrifice. Those were moments that that stood out to me as well as during the hydration breaks. They were all locked in arms, all unified. I think that's been such a strong signal to me, and I think it's something we can learn as coaches of how do we stay connected in times of adversity?
• 33:20
  For 90 minutes or as long as it takes
• 33:22
  without question. And that's that's why it's so great to see you observe and see those signs. Right. That many times as coaches, we try to, instill those things, we try to work those things into the way we do things, but sometimes we miss because we're so caught up watching the game instead of watching individuals and watching the team and how they're reacting with each other.
• 33:44
  But you're right, Rodri is the best, you know, central midfielder in the world and he struggled last year with an ACL injury. And Manchester City. You know many people are saying it was past a sell by date. But no he was the best player in the World Cup. The bus. And they had the confidence to take him off, which is unbelievable, and replace him with maybe the second or third best midfielder to play.
• 34:08
  But that guy sitting on their bench. Yeah, right. But you never heard anything about who started in the media. There was nothing on that Spain team, no other than one team together to win. So not and I do think the US had a lot of that going for it.
• 34:24
  Until the red card. And so then the pressure's building and we talk about the goal of coaching.
• 34:29
  We believe the art of coaching, the art of big performances, knowing when to add pressure, knowing when to take it away. Everybody is caught up in that emotion. So they're just battling all those emotions anyway. And then that red card comes going into that game. And so just for the casual fan and I ask you this question, how often is a red card appealed successfully.
• 34:50
  never. As a matter of fact, you know, I'm on multiple text chains with high school friends and former college teams and this, that and the like. And a couple of them were can we appeal that? Can we appeal that? And my answer back to them was they can appeal it but it's never going to be overturned.
• 35:06
  They went to VAR. It is a red card. Whether it was a right call or the wrong call, whether it was intentional or unintentional. It's a red card in in our game that is never overturned, never.
• 35:21
  I think the irony of what happened, right, was that the entire US team, the coach, the staff, the players, the player who was red carded were prepared to play the game without him.
• 35:36
  And they were preparing for four days to play. The game was all about him.
• 35:41
  you called me and said, hey, well, what did you think happened last night? And I said, you know, I was trying to give you my psychological perspective. There's a lack of connection. There's a lack of chemistry, there's a lack of confidence, there's a lack of communication on the field. They just seemed a little disjointed.
• 35:56
  They were not playing well together. And I was. I was asking, was the moment too big? Was, was the team better, than who they played? And were they prepared for that? And that's when you brought up hey mode. I think the psychology behind the red card that not only were they not prepared with the team that was on the field, they were prepared not to play with him.
• 36:19
  And and knowing that it is inconsistent with how the game of soccer's always been played, your other thought was there was a little bit of doubt in their mind of should he even be playing in Utah? And then he came out with an article, flair and again said even in The Athletic afterwards that he wasn't quite sure it was a am I am I remember that correctly.
• 36:45
  Well, he, he didn't said whether it was right to play him or not, but what he did say is that he felt that it affected. Yes. The players in the preparation. And, and it was clear that it had that was that that team was a shadow of a team that had played in the first three games and everything.
• 37:02
  It was was still, you know, the external preparation being in Seattle, where they had had such a good performance before the fans. So everything was the same, except the team was in the same because there was doubt. Yeah. Should this be done, shouldn't this be done? The other thing that I think was critical too, is that you hand in motivation over to your opponent, right?
• 37:27
  So, you know, if if Dougan isn't on the game day roster, whether he's what is available or not, if he's not on the game day roster or he's on the bench, the message you're sending is we can beat you without him.
• 37:44
  And that message was never sent. Yeah, right. The second thing is, is that, you know, in situations like that because and you saw all these situations, whether it's the Argentina England game, whether it's a final yesterday, pressure mounts throughout the tournament as you go further further into it. And the US stated goal was to get past the round of 16 where we've been before and get to the eight.
• 38:09
  That pressure you could see on their face now they have doubt. Should he play? Shouldn't he play? And it's an unconscious thing as a player because you know the way the game is, you know, I know the halftime show people liked yesterday, but there's no place for that in our game. If you're taking attention away from the actual game.
• 38:33
  Right. And you extended 27 minutes when it's supposed to be 15 minutes, right? It's the same thing. That's why it's not getting world reviews as being something, even though they have great entertainers and great music. Yeah, right. Yeah. It's not it's not what the game has been and what the game has been called for. And that was the doubt that was in the US mind.
• 38:59
  And a little bit of doubt goes a long way. And it's hard to be aggressive and and consistent and courageous when you when you have that question in your mind, should he be playing, you should not be playing. And so one of the things I thought was really interesting is you said whether he appealed or not, I thought maybe Belgium appealing the appeal was okay, we're in their heads a little bit, but but you're saying we should have not even started him because one, it sends a message.
• 39:26
  We respect the way the game that the history of the game, the honor of the game, the integrity of game two is it sends a message to our team. This is the team we prepared for, and we believe we're good enough to win without you. Right. And I think that that's, you know, again, the margins. Yes. He had had a fantastic World Cup.
• 39:46
  Yes. He had scored big goals for us. Yes. He had a great club season in France scoring goals. Yes. We haven't had that player for other World Cups. All that doesn't outweigh what you've been preparing to do. And I think, you know I think the there's a there's another huge factor that goes into this to milk is that we got punched in the nose early.
• 40:10
  Yeah. And our response to that was so the Belgium scores early in the game. We haven't been in that situation so far in the World Cup. So how do we deal with adversity. Are we prepared for that. You know what are we going to do. And it just looked like we were frozen and running in mud. We came into it a little bit.
• 40:34
  And this is my, it's my take on hydration breaks. We came in and we scored the goal on a deflection. And then we came into the game a little bit. And then there was a hydration break and into the hydration break and came out of it. And the rest of it was disaster. It almost seemed like every restart, every kind of after that break, Belgium kind of got reinforced, re-energised and went back on the attack.
• 40:59
  And if I remember correctly, I'm not sure, but elegant. He made a difference in the game,
• 41:04
  he? Didn't I think he had one shot, in the game. Very few touches. He was a shadow of himself. And again, you've got to give Belgium credit, right? They are also coming off the bench with world class players.
• 41:17
  They have, you know, but it was an aging Belgium team. Their goals and their generation was now in there, you know early 30s mid 30s. And you know we're getting into the latter stages of the tournament and we're playing at home. And it's the middle of the day and it's open air. And I mean let's go. Yeah. And we just didn't have it in us.
• 41:39
  And and I think it was the emotional piece and, and the fact that the decision came when the decision came, the decision came like less than 24 hours before the game. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and now you're asking people to react and to make to and do you start them don't you start them. Well yeah. We're just gonna play the same team that's just played up.
• 41:59
  It's not the same teams, same people, but it's not the same team. For the last 24 hours. There's very little tactical changes or preparation. For the most part. I know it's kind of a really quick turnaround, but just from a coaching perspective, you're kind of game plan and your team, you've already got that played out for the most part correct?
• 42:19
  That's right. And there was only one player changed. Yeah. Right. But that it's it's everything. That's why that's why I called, you know, because this wasn't a tactical thing. This wasn't a soccer thing, that Belgium was that much better than we were. Yeah, this was completely emotional. Psychological, maybe a little physical, but even even I didn't think Belgium had a some physical elements of the game either.
• 42:44
  But I was like, I was fascinated that because I've, I've done that to teams myself. Right. And, you know, uncertainty. Who's going to play, who should play confidence. All these things that go round team selection, tactical selections. You can freeze a team, you can freeze. I remember one of my first I think we played in the quarterfinals, the NCAA tournament.
• 43:07
  Was it Brown was playing against the University of Virginia. And I gave the guys a ten page scouting report. I knew that Virginia in and out, and we went out to play the game at Virginia. And guess what? My team looked just like the USA team. And it wasn't until afterwards what I realized. They had too much information.
• 43:27
  They couldn't think for themselves then. Our game is so beautiful, and the fact that it's a players game and the players has to be in peak mental, physical, emotional, place in order for the best to come out. And when it does, and we did this many times in the tournament, it's beautiful to watch
• 43:49
  but it's such when it's not.
• 43:52
  It's such a stark contrast to what you've seen a witness. I think you know, Bear Brian had that great quote. A confused player can't be a great player. And, and I think, I think the question we talked about all the time as coaches, as leaders, are they winning because of me or in spite of me? Am I helping them win or are they having to overcome my decisions, my emotions, my reactions, my interference with with making the simple, complex Am?
• 44:20
  Is am I making the complex up or making the simple complex? I think that's what I'm taking from all of this. Is not only how we've prepared the team, but what's the message I'm sending the team by my decisions, my by strategy, by who's on the field, what's that underlying message in my building, their confidence or my creating doubt?
• 44:44
  I think that to me is is what I'm hearing here from from the England manager, from, putting Galligan on the field or not on the field, putting them on the roster, not on the roster. Regardless of what people's decision was, there's an underlying message that that we are sending the people that play for us, the people that we work with, that that is bigger than sometimes the decision.
• 45:07
  Yeah. And that's true. And you have to recognize and that people like you to help us recognize it. But but I'll be I'll be honest with you. I think I saw it, you know. There. Fantastic job. Right. And you think about it a little bit, right. The guys presented with this, you know, less than 24 hours before the game.
• 45:27
  The leader of the free world has come out and said that he was part of, of of asking for the right. And now the coach has got to make a decision. Do I plan don't I mean, yeah, I mean, the bird, the burden that put on of Tino. Yes. After he had done such a really good job of getting our team ready.
• 45:49
  The last point I'll make and I'll go back to, to what I said in the, in getting punched in the face at the beginning of the game. And the adversity piece is that the internal leadership and the feel good factor that had gone on to the US throughout the tournament when they faced that adversity, it really it's got to come from the people on the field and they have to sense it and have the, and intestinal fortitude to change something and lead.
• 46:29
  I mean, and that's why leaders are so hard to come by. And I think that, you know, there were leaders in the team when things were going well. Yes. But I'm not sure we had the strength of leadership that we needed, like Argentina being down a couple goals. Right. Like having a Rodri in your team. I mean, he's just a consummate leader.
• 46:54
  We still have to develop those types of people and and have them show up, because I think that's just the next stage of what we need to go with the game. Yeah. And I think the best teams that have been a part of, Clemson with your soccer program, with football, with like any of the sports I've worked with is when the players take ownership.
• 47:12
  And I was smiling when you talked about the intestinal fortitude and the gals on the field. I can't repeat what Gail said. I think on our podcast of when they were courageous and brave. But I'll never forget it when I said, hey, guys, how did you do this? And I could just remember this great accent. And like I said, I can't repeat it, but it was basically saying we had great courage.
• 47:34
  And we stood the test and we stayed together. That is one of the highlights of that national championship run for that team that they had the courage to to fight. And it wasn't you or the staff as much as they took ownership, and they refused to let that adversity dictate how they played and how they showed up.
• 47:54
  Yeah. No question. And I remember right when we were there's a tent down at USF at halftime and Dale was going off and he wasn't the captain of the team. He had just come into the team, right? He came from Morgan State on a transfer and my staff wanted me and them to go in and calm him down.
• 48:13
  I said, no, you just stay right here. We're not going in there. Right? And then it came out and you know, I'll leave the profanity out. But it was this. He said, this is my life, nothing else. This is my life. And we need to play. We all need to play like, this is your life. And it was, it was, it was beautiful.
• 48:33
  And it was unifying. And and after that point. Right. He didn't need an armband. But we were all following him. Well. And it was and it was in the point of adversity. We were losing the game. Yeah. Against an inferior opponent. So yeah I'll, I'll, I'll never forget them. I'll never forget that moment. Yeah. Yeah. That was that was fun to witness.
• 48:54
  Always, love our conversations. I learned something every time I'm with you. And I appreciate you kind of making in the effort to kind of break this down, for all of us. And. And I think what I hear is the future is bright for soccer. What's the legacy going to be? And even for the U.S. men's team, how do we develop leadership?
• 49:16
  How do we get a little bit better? How do we stay connected? How do we prepare for success and adversity? I think those are the challenges that not only our team faces, but all of us face as we kind of go through this thing called life.
• 49:28
  so I think that's that's the point.
• 49:30
  And why I love working with you. Because you are able to take all these complex situations that are appearing and make the complex, simple and, and stated in, in a way that is understandable and that we all can relate to and that teams and people and players and coaches have an opportunity to be able to, you know, crystallize so they can be the best version of themselves.
• 49:55
  So thank you for I appreciate you saying that. It's been a blessing. And, and like I said, you made such a difference in my life and my career and have opened me up to a whole new world of soccer and, introduced them to so many people from all across the world. I think, you know, one of the highlights of last year for me is having 12 different languages, out on Mill Pond playing paintball, and hearing some, some colorful language and all different, dialects.
• 50:23
  That was a highlight that I think and Liberty, South Carolina. But, any final thoughts or comments and what kind of maybe also think about outlook for the season here as we wrap up.
• 50:33
  Yeah. No, I think things you said, right. I mean, we're in the education business. Right. And World Cup is is also the education business, but it's educating the world and into the the principles that you talk about unity and love and passion.
• 50:45
  And I think that here at Clemson, that's what that's why I love my team is because it does by design, come from all over the world. We learn, we appreciate, we accept and embrace diversity within our team while pursuing excellence and emphasizing education. So, I, I love what I do. I love that the World Cup was here and there was a laboratory for us to look out for in the last 5 or 6 weeks.
• 51:12
  And I hope that, I hope that we've been able to bring some insight, maybe into some reviewers and listeners, you know, no doubt. And, I appreciate you. You're the best. And, for all of you listening, any comments? Thoughts? Questions? For us, please send our way. And until, next time, continue to be better and pursue better.