Latest / Sleeping Barber - A Marketing Podcast / SBP 221: The PostPod - Lessons from Ty Heath. B2B Marketing is Playing the Game on Hard Mode.

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SBP 221: The PostPod - Lessons from Ty Heath. B2B Marketing is Playing the Game on Hard Mode. · Sleeping Barber - A Marketing Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the Sleeping Papa podcast.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_03: We're back with another postpod.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_03: Post in the blue corner is my I don't know.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_02: I'm kind of the red corner right now.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_02: You are the red corner.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_02: That's definitely summer.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_02: The light comes in earlier and I have to close my window.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_02: Or my sh my blind so that the red light in the background can show up a little bit better.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_03: I got no moon lighting here at all right now.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_02: It's like well, Grease looks pretty great.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_02: Not completely from your kitchen.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm just like it just makes me happy knowing you're there right now, actually.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks, man.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_02: I'm living vicariously through.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_02: I appreciate that.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, postpod for Ty.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_03: One of our favorites.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_03: Everything every conversation we have with her is so good.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, she's great.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_02: She's just such an amazing person to talk to.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_02: She's so lovely.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_02: She's so good.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_02: She's so fun.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_03: Go ahead.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_03: Go ahead.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_03: I was just gonna say we covered it ground on this one again.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_03: So quite a few topics.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_03: Is there something out of the gate that you wanted to highlight?
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_02: Uh the one thing that I remember laughing about a lot was like B2B is playing on hard mode.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: So funny.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_02: Like as a gaming metaphor.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_02: Just playing it on hard settings.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's absolutely absolutely.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_03: Like honestly, it's the we when you think about it, there's like the same marketing principles that really apply to B2B and B2C.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_03: But there's more stakeholders, there's more politics, there's more career risk, there's longer buying cycles, and all those things.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_03: It's like taking our discipline and making it really hard to kind of get get through.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, that environment's a difficult one to navigate.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_03: But if you're close enough to the B2B LinkedIn, sorry, the LinkedIn B2B Institute, maybe that's your cheat cheat code for getting things done, is where we actually took the conversation, which was quite funny.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_02: But so I mean, just about the cheat code, like it's interesting thinking about like you and I have talked about thinking and frameworks a few times.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_02: And one of their great frameworks that came out of that is the 595 rule, which originally was discovered in B2B, well, not discovered, but it was done with B2B research.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_02: And I think has been adopted by a lot of other brands now.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I know James Herman's book has got a lot of uh versions of the 595 rule in a whole bunch of different categories in it.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_02: So I find it interesting thinking about that because it it it is like a bit of a cheat code, right?
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_02: Like if you if you have a better framework in mind and you could see the world more like it actually is, then some of the things that you're doing don't always align to that.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_02: Like if you're trying to go against gravity, you're probably not gonna win very often.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_02: So it it I think it is a bit of a cheat code.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_02: I think it is a bit of a shortcut or um an improvement in and oftentimes a lot of the ways you're doing things.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_03: Well, let's just kind of reflect on your own experience.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_03: You've spent more time in the B2B space than I have.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_03: I I actually have like zero experience in in B2B.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_03: But like what what in your opinion makes that environment so hard to navigate?
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_02: I I would say probably the biggest thing is is ultimately the buying committee.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, okay.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_02: It it and I I'd say well, it's it's not just that.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_02: It's the it's the idea of what we'd call pipeline, like a sales process is generally a fair bit different.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_02: I'm saying this with a caveat and an asterisk as I'm saying this out loud, like I know we were just talking about lovable earlier, and so you can you can buy that online.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_02: So that that is technically probably a B2B service, so it's not necessarily the same thing.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_02: But if you have complex products that aren't bought just on a whim, that would be more like a like a product like lovable or or Claude or something like that, would probably be more of a behavior like a B2C purchase behavior.
• 4:40
  unknown: Yeah.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_02: Because you can just buy online, like you can pair pants.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_02: But when you get into situations where there's more people involved in making a decision, like is this the right thing to purchase for our company or not?
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_02: That decision-making process on their end is a big black box a lot of times.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_02: And then part of the thing with the other part that makes it challenging is that you have on the B2B side, it's no longer just the marketers.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_02: In some ways, it's the same same as B2C, debating myself.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_02: But if you think about the way that's what the pipeline part, the pipeline part is, yeah, like ultimately, I want to say it's different, but it's not that different because you have marketing people that are putting out messages, then there's salespeople that are taking the leads, then there's sometimes product development people that get involved and invested in the conversation because they want to build the product as they're selling the product, and then they hand off once you close the deal to say the customer success team, which then works a lot with the product development team, you know, as through an ongoing sort of land and expand approach.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_02: But that really isn't that much different than B2C.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_02: It's just it's more it's more intentional, like that that they have to work together, I think, in B2B to get the deal across the line where maybe they can operate more in silos in B2C.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think I think that's the hard part.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_03: I think that makes sense.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_03: Again, there is there is complexity, there is nuances between the two, but I think what I do like is that a lot of the principles apply across both.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_03: So it's that's the I think it's there used to be this myth, dare I call it, that you know, B2B is so different than than B2C.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_03: But we're seeing like that's not really the case.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, which is good.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_02: That's why I was debating myself because I don't I don't know that it actually is when I describe it, it's not really that different.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_02: No, that's fair.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_02: Even you, I would debate that you don't you do more B2B than you probably think you do.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_02: Like it just in terms of like the businesses that you're in.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_02: Like they're not exclusively B2C.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_02: Like there would be B2B buyers.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_03: It's just that well, if I were to use like my my current role at TELUS, there is an actual team that's focused on B2B.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_03: So while like mobility, internet, etc., are you know universal to anyone that's in a B2B environment or a consumer, there is a whole team that's standing up a lot of campaigns that are dedicated to that customer.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_03: That's not to say that anything that I do on the consumer side isn't influencing a B2B consumer in some moment.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_03: Like that, I think it would be wrong to think that that's not the case.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_03: But yeah, I mean, the the other thing that I that I was thinking about or reflecting about our conversation with with Ty is she got quite close to to judging and the jury for her, which was awesome for her, great experience.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_03: And she talked about creativity has matured because we asked her outright, like, have we seen, you know, kind of like the overall creativity change?
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_03: And what she said was the question has shifted from can B2B be creative to what makes B2B creativity effective.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_03: And I think we've seen there's a lot of cases that everyone will always be quick to talk about Salesforce, and that's kind of been the one that kind of comes to mind on like they do some great marketing activities.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_03: And there's others that I'm sure I'm just not thinking of in the moment, but the subtle change to what makes B2B a creative effective, I think is an interesting one.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_03: So it's like we've cracked the creativity side, maybe not everybody, but maybe the majority have.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_03: But now it's like, how do we make sure that that creativity that we're leaning into, how do we make sure it's actually creative is effective, sorry.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I love that.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's probably really true.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_02: Funny enough, I was looking up, we're gonna be doing a sharp cut soon on category entry points, and I came across something that SAP was doing, which related to category entry points.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_02: Whereas a few years ago, when I was working in that space, there was nobody talking, like SAP did not talk about category entry points.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's interesting seeing them evolve that process now.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_02: And so there's I think an adoption where, like to your point and to her point, it's no longer just about you know, it can be to be be creative.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_02: There's a deeper uh understanding of behavior and thinking about how do we influence people more or or build memory better.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_02: So then that it's an interesting conversation.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_02: It's interesting to see the maturity of B2B in this space.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_03: I think it also ties to something else that she said as well that when she was talking about the main many can winners uh weren't campaigns, they were built communities, platforms, experiences, and ecosystems.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_03: So it's like, you know, have our are our marketers essentially becoming ecosystem ecosystem builders versus just campaign builders.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_03: And our and our campaigns just really more becoming too short term.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_03: Like I think there's a like there's two two parts to that right now.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_03: If you're just doing campaign, is it too short term?
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_03: But should we be thinking about ourselves being more like ecosystem builders?
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_03: So anything that you do put in market, it's in service of something.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and and B2B really should be the place where long-term thinking can thrive.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_02: I agree.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_02: Because it's the site sales cycles are generally speaking so much longer than just buying a chocolate bar.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_02: And so there's a whole bunch of stuff there that I think is like such an advantage for B2B marketers to think about the systems in place and the experiences in place and yeah, and and constructing that in a way that is not just a here today, gone tomorrow kind of an approach.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_03: You brought this up in Cannes a few times, but like the Amazon port would be a great example of that.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_03: If we think about Salesforce and Dreamforce that they have, uh HubSpot, I think what do they call theirs, like inbound or something.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, yeah.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_03: Like all of those, you see, like they're being put on by these organizations, but it's an ecosystem that they're building around it.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_03: So any brand that was at Cannes probably is thinking in some capacity that way.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe they're not thinking at it as a connected system, but it's really what's happening.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's a good point.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_02: I hadn't thought about that.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_02: Like the port itself is uh is I mean, they talk they talked about a full funnel experience through their platforms because they have of all the different tools they have, and and like they can run video on they can run ads in live sports, they can totally they've got the the click to buy, obviously, with Amazon and there's the AWS, there's all kinds of stuff there, but then the actual physical manifestation of that is a full funnel experience, ironically.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, absolutely.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_02: There's so much in in B2B that I think because the maybe in some cases the channels are a little bit different, just thinking about the Amazon port, the the physical experience around events and event marketing is really interesting.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_02: Because I think if you treat those things, and I know that we talked to Ty about this, not this past conversation, but the one before.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_02: Around events and event marketing, like if you treat it as a short-term sales funnel, like bottom of the funnel kind of tactic, then you I think you're missing out on a big opportunity because there's only a certain number of people who are gonna buy.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_02: Totally.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I agree with that.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_03: I agree with that.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_02: Which I think is what is an interesting thing.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_02: Like when you think about that Amazon port that we're at, aside from just the rose flowing freely.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_03: Literally, it was on tap.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_02: Then the just the ex like the overall experience leaves an impression and thinking about what that means and how that works for your memory is kind of interesting.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_03: For sure.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_03: Because like, you know, I did I did Amazon port the year before and did it this year as well.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_03: And of course, it becomes one of those bigger executions that you want to be, you want to see, and like they brought the full ecosystem there again for a second year, and they're basically putting all their products on display and helping those people that are walking through it and understand how they all fit together for, like you said, the full funnel experience and positioning their products that way.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I wanted to ask you, there's a thing about the contrarian marker that that she talked about when we were just we were having this conversation with her.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_02: Just the the idea of the contrarian market, it was a big bet that they made.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_02: Instead of doing a trend report, they kind of focused on things that weren't changing.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't and thinking about like how to invest in those kinds of things long term.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just curious, uh, as a self-proclaimed non-B2B marketer.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_02: What it's all doing to me.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_02: How do you think about the contrarian marketer approach?
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_02: Like what what would be yeah, like it I think it probably applies, no?
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_02: I think so.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, as far as like just that chasing trends.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think like I guess it would have been a few years ago when when we did this, where we talked to Tom Goodwin about the, you know, being contrarian for the sake of being contrarian when if you're just chasing all the trends, sorry, not being so being contrarian against and and looking at like what you have access to today and just doing really good in that instead of chasing the trends.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_03: I actually think that always has to be your foundation.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't want to put a percentage to this because like innovation is a part of what we do, how we think, how we should be approaching our discipline.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_03: And everyone likes to say, well, it's 5% of your investment or 10%.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_03: It's like I for me, it's less about that because innovation can be in a process.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_03: It's not just like what you put out there.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_03: So I think your foundation should always be built on what can be repeatable, which is likely things that we've done in the past.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_03: So we're thinking about like broad reach tactics.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_03: Build it, build on that.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_03: That's okay.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_03: Then you can maybe do some of that trends chasing, if you will, kind of on the fringes, but don't make that the plan.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's where we get sometimes I'll give you an example, overcorrecting potentially and saying that we're only doing, say, creators for as a part.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm talking about if you're a if you're just a large brand and you have money to spend in in all directions, you could probably test that.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_03: But there's you have to also be careful, and if that's you're making that your own strategy and of itself.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_03: It may work for your product or service, but just be careful on just jumping on, say, a trend because everyone's talking about creators.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_03: And we were at Cannes, and creators was a big deal.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_03: Huge, yeah.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_03: But again, at the same time, does that mean you go all in?
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_03: I yeah, I don't think so.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe in some cases, but it's like you have to think about like where does it fit in your ecosystem?
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_03: Where are the super touch points as a creative dividend report highlighted them as?
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think that's the trick.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_02: Like I keep and whenever I bring this kind of thing up, I always talk about SEO, and not to shit on SP SEO, but it is one of those things that changes so often.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it does.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_02: With every update.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think I always think about that as the example of the opposite of the contrarian, where you can get caught up the same thing, same example, like ultimately as the creator thing that you just brought up, but or GEO.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_02: Like these are the trends that that change frequently.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_02: And so you can invest a shit ton of your time and energy and resources into these things that are changing all the time.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_02: But then that's not really I'm not sure that that is it's to your point, it's not a bad investment if it's a bit of an experimentation to see how it works and think about the the innovation component.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_02: But it's potentially really distracting for what the objective is.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_02: We were just talking about like with Tracy's in the postpod with Tracy thinking about the objectives more and thinking about the problem you're actually trying to solve.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's part of the problem that we have is that we end up thinking on the trend becomes the problem that we're trying to solve instead of it becoming an a potential solution to the problem that is really the important problem that we need to think about.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_03: Which means like we're setting up our objectives wrong out out of the gate.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, because it's just the newest, latest, greatest thing that we're then optimizing towards instead of like the actual big thing that's driving the business forward.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_03: I agree.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_03: I agree.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_03: That's such a great connect there.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, absolutely.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_03: Want to play a quick game?
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_03: The quick fire?
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_03: I love games.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_03: Let's do it.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_03: So obviously we're we're introducing a little sub-segment in a segment, if that's that's the right way to do it.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_03: But this is quickfire, where we highlight the best quote, most surprising insight, and maybe the biggest missed question.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_03: So in your opinion, what was the best quote of our with our conversation with Ty?
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_02: I I think if for me it's it's around the contrarian bet.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_02: Like I like rather than looking at what's changing, look at where you can invest for the long term.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it because you can make good bets on that is is of I'm paraphrasing what she said, but I think that's to me that's that's the biggest one.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_02: How about you?
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_03: It was B2B isn't playing a different game, it's playing the same game on hard mode.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_03: It's what you opened up with.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it was good.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_03: So I just took what you said earlier.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_03: It's still good.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_03: Most surprising insight.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I I think I I need to think about this one a bit more.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_02: But I I for I I think the the team culture part, just thinking about what what they did and what they've been doing at the B2B Institute, and thinking about how they built what they did in a relatively short period of time.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_02: They had great people that were all aligned to this idea.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_02: And so they think that's the big idea on their part was being kind like going for the things that don't change.
• 19:52
  unknown: Yeah.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_02: And then building a great team culture around that.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_02: It wasn't it, it wasn't so much that she said it that it was the insight, just that like thinking about how they built what they did and and turning that B2B institute into something really like a global scale was really impressive.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_02: I think that was really interesting.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_03: On my side, it would have been something that actually floored me.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_03: Confidence, she said confidence may matter more than persuasion and B2B, which I thought was like a really interesting take.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, confidence of the buying committee.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, that funny enough, because we we ended up bumping into Mimi.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_02: We did.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_02: Turner one night just on the quassette.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_02: And and she she had brought that up actually, that that one of the things we talked to her about last year was this idea of category entry points essentially for B2B buying committees.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_02: And it relates aro a lot around confidence, but um I think that's a really important part, like having the cohesion of the confidence with the B2B buying committee.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_03: Totally.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, couldn't agree more.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_03: Biggest missed question then, V.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_03: If confidence is the goal, should we be measuring it?
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_03: How would we even know that marketing is increasing confidence?
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: I should have thought of that in the moment.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_02: But I think this is related to like some of the other conversations we had.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_02: It there's an effectiveness system here.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_02: And if like if that is an objective, then similarly, like if you're if your objective is to like own awareness of the category or or own recall of a category, like you kind of need to measure it.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_02: Totally.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_02: You don't always measure it because you don't like it, it's not right in the platform.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_02: So then that's a good point.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_02: How do you measure it?
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_03: How about most practical practical takeaway?
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_02: This one I thought was awesome from her from Ty.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_02: That's to simplify the strategy so you can explain it in a sentence.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_03: One sentence.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: That's really hard, but like the Occam's razor idea, like the simplest answer is often the best one.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: I yeah.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: So simple, so hard.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_03: And challenge for Marketers V, what do you think?
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_03: I think it was like one of the things we we talked about a little bit earlier, but it's like, are we building campaigns or are we building an ecosystem?
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's it may be different in the moment for for everybody, but having that frame of mind to be like, hey, does this how does this come into the ecosystem as a whole?
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, is also a different unlock to get there.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_03: Like, don't just look at it in the isolation of a campaign and what it's meant to do.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_03: But this is where it goes back to again, so many conversations that you and I keep having.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_03: It's like it has to be rooted in strategy, it has to be rooted in a true business strategy that for the most part, most organizations, I would argue, don't have one.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_02: Totally agree.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_02: Well, yeah, I think they have versions of one, but I don't know that it's always we've talked about this a lot.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_02: It it's so ambiguous a lot of times that it it's almost meaningless.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_02: I yeah, I agree.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I agree.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and with that, thanks, Ty, for for hanging out with us and uh and uh hope you like the shirt.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_03: That's right.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_03: We we still yeah, actually owes us a picture.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_03: And for everybody else, thanks for keeping us in your ears.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_03: Stay sharp, everyone.