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24. Mastering Grief Literacy: Why Widows Leave Their Advisors and How to Keep Them with Kathi Balasek · Planning & Beyond® - Where financial planning meets human understanding

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: When you're dealing with clients that are in deep brain fog, grief fog, whatever you want to call it, it's that cognitive delay of forgetfulness, confusion.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: And so you're asking them to make fill out paperwork, prioritize all of these decisions that need to be made down the road.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: There's certain things and things that we can say to not overwhelm our clients.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: Even the simple word choice of urgent versus priority.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you say urgent, that freaks people out.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: Those words that are said a lot in this industry, just changing some simple words put clients at ease.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Planning and Beyond, the show where financial planning meets human understanding.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: As an exceptional financial advisor, you know that financial planning is about more than just numbers.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's about giving clients the clarity they need to align their money with what matters most.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: Which is why each episode is designed with that goal in mind.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: You'll learn how to uncover the psychology behind client decisions and gain insights and behavioral strategies needed to create deeper, more meaningful client relationships.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: You'll discover techniques for navigating emotional client situations drawn from conversations with leading industry experts in behavioral finance, psychology, communication, and more.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: Whether it's mastering discovery meetings, handling sensitive client conversations, or understanding what is truly keeping your client stuck, you'll walk away with not only strategies that you can use in your next client meeting, but also the confidence to do so.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah, hi.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: I should probably introduce myself.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Ashley Kwame, a therapist who somehow wandered into the world of financial behavior and kind of decided to stay.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: My mission is to help you bridge the gap between financial planning and human understanding.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: Because remember, finances don't have feelings, but your clients do.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: Let's dive in.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Planning and Beyond, where financial planning meets human understanding.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Ashley Kwame.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: Today we're exploring one of the most challenging yet inevitable aspects of client relationships, and that is supporting clients through grief and loss.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'm joined today by Kathy Balasek, who specializes in training financial advisors like you in grief literacy and empathy etiquette.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: I love that phrasing so much, just by the way, empathy etiquette.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: I think it is just brilliant.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: Kathy's expertise, she is in helping advisors really navigate these difficult conversations with confidence, with compassion, because grief and loss come up in your client relationships.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's really a matter of when.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so today's episode is really here to provide some practical insights and strategies that you can implement for when these situations come up.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome, Kathy, to the show.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: I am so excited to have you here.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Ashley.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: It is just a joy to be here and I'm honored, and I can't wait for this conversation.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: I am loving what you are doing, and I just feel very humbled to be a part of it.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: Wonderful.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: Well, the feeling is certainly mutual there.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: So I am an admirer, as we were talking before we hit record, an admirer of yours from afar.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: So even if we don't get to chat often, I love all the work that you do and I'm a cheerleader in the background there for you.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: So before we dive into all of the maybe quote unquote good stuff, right?
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: I'd love if you would be willing to just share how did you get into grief literacy?
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: It is a, I mean, that is a it's a heavy field.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: It is a heavy field.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so if you would just maybe take us through, kind of hit some highlights, how did you get into this work, Kathy?
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: Well, yeah, you're right.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: It is heavy.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it is the unhappy hour of the conversation.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I came to this, you know, my background is in education.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: I've been a teacher professor for decades.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I met this wonderful man years ago, and he changed my life.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: John was the best father and husband, and one day life completely changed.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: And he had a brain tumor out of the blue, very young.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we were in our 30s, and we went from having everything schedules, soccer games, everything like that, to fighting cancer, appointments, schedules, all of those things.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I really went from mom, wife, caregiver to widow at a very young age.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: He fought it for five years.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: But it just changed my life.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I just knew at some point in my life, in my career, that I didn't want to teach people about dying.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: John taught me how to live and how to notice other people who are in pain.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm reminded of when, you know, we'd go to like the mall or something, way back when when there was great malls, and he would like want to go sit at the food court and find somebody in need.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: And we would have conversations.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, he just noticed other people in need.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_00: And it really taught me about, you know, this is so much bigger than ourselves.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: And there's so many people out there that are not recognizing and showing empathy and compassion in a way that helps people through the worst time.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: And that's really my story of, and then I was embraced by this community and the volume of things that people did.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I had wonderful professionals that helped me through this.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I just thought, you know, after COVID hit, I'm gonna do something about this.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: I I'm gonna use my teaching skills and really lean into something that changes the way people think about grief and loss and empathy because I believe it's the your strongest skill out there.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I well, listen, you're preaching to the choir here as a therapist, right?
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like leaning into empathy and understanding the impact of empathy and compassion and the role that that can play, certainly from a relational standpoint, but you know, also just individually too.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of a it's a superpower, really, an untapped superpower, I feel that most of us don't really realize.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: I just think it takes so much bravery and courage on your end to take that kind of life moment, right?
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: And really then turn it into a professional pursuit, certainly, but just you know, a passion.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: This isn't a project at this point, Kathy, right?
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: You've built an entire business, right?
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: But really a passion-filled business there.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: Tell me a little bit about just kind of you said that you were an educator and you took those skills, and you know, you've taken that now into the professional space.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: How are you helping professionals, advisors?
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: What does that look like?
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna maybe ask you to promote yourself here a little bit.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: Tell me, tell me what it is that you're doing now to help advisors and to help professionals.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, absolutely.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know, first when I knew I was gonna do this, I really dove into the research and looked at what profession really needs me?
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: What profession really has some skin in the game?
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: And financial professionals are at risk of clients leaving them and they're taking their money with them.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_00: So I thought, you know, there's a lot of people I could help, but this is this is somebody who needs my help desperately and can affect a ton of people.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: So after I've, you know, you see the stats, the 70% leave, and the number of widowhood is up, you know, grade divorce, all of these things, I started to look into this is a communication skill.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: My degree is in, you know, communication education, curriculum design.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: So how to say things, you know, what to say, but then how to say them, how to ask questions that engage, but how how to level and layer your questions where you're not talking above your client.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: When you're dealing with clients that are in deep brain fog, grief fog, whatever you want to call it, it's that cognitive delay of forgetfulness, confusion.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so you're asking them to make fill out paperwork, prioritize all of these decisions that need to be made down the road.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: There's certain things and things that we can say to not overwhelm our clients.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: Even the simple word choice of urgent versus priority.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you say urgent, that freaks people out.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: Those words that are said a lot in this industry, just changing some simple words put clients at ease.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: Asking for permission to talk about these things.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: I always say with advisors, it's like, tell me about the space you're creating for them.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: And they're like, well, I don't know what safe space means.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know what you're talking about, okay?
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: Which why would we?
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like we were ever taught this language of loss.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: And it starts with actually verbalizing.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: I am here to listen and support you.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: I want you to feel free to talk about your loved one.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm here to spend the time with you and thank you for sharing that with me.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: Clients need to hear that.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: And when you create that first meeting, because advisors are on the front lines of very bad news.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: We have a lot of firsts with these people.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: The first phone call, going to the service is a first.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: Gifting, what are you gonna gift?
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: What are you gonna drop by the house?
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: That first meeting.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: How can you put that client at ease from the get-go?
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: Because world in a grief, illiterate world, we don't know what to say.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: So helping you script exactly what to say on the phone, you know, and you think, well, that's not authentic.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: Well, of course it's not authentic.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: We haven't had a lot of reps doing this, okay?
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: We don't have the muscle memory.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: So we have to practice this, write it out, actually say it in a way that when you call, they hear your voice, they hear your vulnerability.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: You're here to reach out.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a system, there's what you say, and and all of those things that from the get-go sends the message of solidified trust.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like people will come to you for advice in good times and all the shiny objects and all the money and vacation homes and kids' college, but they will stay with you when you can show up in the worst of times.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: We call that, or at least how I frame it, is with the acronym R A-R-E, right?
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: Are you accessible?
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: Are you responsive?
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: Are you engaged?
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_01: And that, you know, being able to hit all three, that trifecta is what drives safety from a relational standpoint.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: And particularly in times of grief or post, right?
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: You know, kind of their after post-loss, being able to do all of those things that you said communicates that safety.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: Now, you just dropped so many gems and nuggets, but I want to go back to one of the comments you made about those who are in a state of grief experiencing grief fog, right?
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: Kind of brain fog.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: Can you talk to us a little bit about when a client is going through the grieving process?
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: Tell me a little bit more about how they might present, what is going on from them, maybe even psychologically.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: Tell me kind of the inner workings here about what is happening for this client so that maybe we can understand, get a good picture right here of.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: I typically give an analogy of you've just been given a thousand-piece puzzle, and the client is supposed to put the puzzle together, and they don't even have the picture on the box.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: They have no clue where to start.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's completely overwhelming.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: And when an advisor can come in and find the corner pieces, the side pieces, divide things into bite-sized components.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: In the research, there's the, you know, what to do now, next, and later for that time frame.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of people frame it within a year.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: However, brain fog lasts over a year.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: And this can be last from two to seven years.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so really thinking about, okay, at first, we are going to get the paperwork done.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: Let's just get the paperwork done.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: I have people to delegate, I have, you know, I'm gonna what we can do, what you can do, what you can have your family delegate, and just simple bite-sized.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: Let's just get the paperwork.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: There's very few decisions that have to be made in the first year.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's a lot of filling out, you know, the death certificate, all of those types of things.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: Then, okay, next, then we want to sort of get organized.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: After that first or second month, let's get organized.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: Let's look at all the paperwork we have and we and then you can help.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: Advisors will ask me, well, should do I should I do it all?
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, no, you have a life and a family.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: No, the point is to help and empower.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: And the only way you can do that is, and I call these the teachable moments with clients.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: You can't do something for somebody, there's no buy-in.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: You get really organized, you find everything.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: And clients can have friends to come in to do that, help them with a filing system you can help them with, but some sort of here's all your insurance things, here's your medical things, here's your estate, you know, all of those things.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: And then later you have options.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, like Susan Bradley teaches the no decision zone.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I love that because there really should be no decisions.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: But you still have options.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: People, anybody who doesn't love choices, who doesn't love options, right?
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: And you have to open up that view for your client.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: Because, you know, for example, the number one thing that that widows will want to handle in the research, so they the home.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: The home is a big sticking place.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: You know, should I sell the home?
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: Should I stay?
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: You know, maybe the person died in the home, maybe this is the family home.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody and their dog is telling them what's how to handle the home.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: And they want to make that decision.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: I want to check that box, I want to have that done, that's that's over.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: And it's financial advisors know that there's some big financial risks down the road for not really open up options and really looking through a lens and prolonging a decision.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: Because again, you only have maybe 50 pieces of the puzzle at the end of that year.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: So until you have most of the puzzle in to a future you can't even envision, it's not the best time to make a decision.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so really understanding from the advisor's point of view is your client, they want to check off the box.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: If that's what they want to do, then gear your content and your emails and your sheet that you they leave with with five check boxes that hold them in that time frame.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: And that's a lot where my education comes in.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: Mode of communication, mode of feedback, what type of feedback, learning styles of your client, where we could really format to get them to the end goal at the end of year one or two.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: I love the breaking down from and using a puzzle.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: Our family likes puzzles.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: And right, first thing that we do is try to find the corner and edge pieces right there.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that's such a great analogy to use in providing some of that initial structure.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: I guess what my question maybe for you and your experience or even just in the research and education is looking at the difference between whether it's a widow or a widower, if they were the maybe financially dominant like partner, does any of that make a difference there in terms of maybe though that first initial year and what advisors should be doing?
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: Should they ask different questions?
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: Or what is your perspective on that?
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the data alliance, it's like 23% are not getting of women are not getting to the long-term planning table.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: Where, you know, I think it's like 78, it was like a UBS study, 78% is are doing the day-to-day finances and the home finances, but they're not getting to the table.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: And part of what I teach, I call it an acronym, it's PACE, preparation, action, communication, empowerment.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: Preparation is how do you get women to the table?
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: Because the reality is 90% of women will solely be responsible at one point in their life, whether it's from caregiving, divorce, widowhood, of the long-term finances.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I believe this is an area that that's such an opportunity for advisors.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: If you know how to get women to the table, and some things that are helpful is number one, you have to know women.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: You have to know how to build rapport.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: We are different.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: You know, men are very rapport driven, numbers, and this is just typical.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not saying everyone, but they're very rapport-driven.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: They like things in a list, then these are the things I'm gonna do.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: Women are very rapport, we're story driven.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: How is our how are these numbers gonna affect me sending my children to college?
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: How are these numbers going to affect certain things in my life?
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: And if you can build rapport, you have to know them.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things that I ask in my workshops is pick one person you know, one client you know that's either a couple or a female, and I want you to list 10 things personally you know about them.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: That's a great exercise.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: Where did they go to college?
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: Where did they grow up?
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: Something about their family, the names of their children.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: And this is something that you could take notes on in an office.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: And when you meet again, and you as an advisor say, Well, how about that ball game about their alma mater or what whatever it was?
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: And you bring up the name of a child, or how how was their field hockey game?
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: I I'm telling you, you will hook that female client because they will know that you cared about them.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: And there's so much research in giving feedback that is related to that person and it engages the person.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: And when you're meeting with a couple or anybody, write notes.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: It sends the message to the client that you're listening, you care enough to write it down, you're gonna remember.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we've all been to a restaurant where a waiter takes your order and they don't write it down, you have no confidence what you're gonna get, right?
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it just sends that.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: Oh no, I hope they remember.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: And when females are very driven that way, they're very tribal.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: We talk about and we refer in groups and packs.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: We go into the restroom and we finish and we're at the mirror and we're talking about, well, who did your hair and where do I go for this restaurant?
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: We're very refer-based.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: And theoretically, women refer three to one in financial instances.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: So if this isn't the biggest opportunity, I don't know what is, and I had no clue about long-term finances.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: I was that, I don't even want to use the word traditional because I want to change this tradition.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: But John loved all of that.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: He loved the numbers, he loved it.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: I had no desire.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: I never thought there was a need for it.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: I trusted him completely.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: That was the biggest mistake I ever made.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: Because when you don't know about money, you have guilt.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: I was embarrassed.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't even know what to ask.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: You have this shame of like, I've been handed all this money now from life insurance and a pension and all of these things, and I don't even know how to do taxes.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know any of that, and I don't want to talk about it because the money represented the ultimate cost, my husband's life.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: So I was spending money like no tomorrow.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, taking my family to Hawaii, buying this, you know, I was outfitted in great clothing, all of this stuff without a thought.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: And nobody was there to reel us in, right?
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: I was too embarrassed to go to my financial advisor and say, this is a problem.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, I am that widow.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: I'm telling you, this stuff happens.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm in a big circle of widows that the guilt, the money shame, the embarrassed, the lack of skills, and really wanting these skills.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: And advisors who build a community of women and have workshops that are social and engaging and fabulous food, and let us engage with you, with the content, and with each other.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's not like we go round up a bunch of widows and say, hey, let's have a meeting.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: No, this is an ongoing, like every month, building of a community of women because the reason that we are so tribal is we talk to one another.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: And an older person who may have experienced a divorce or widowhood is now talking at the table with a young woman who is happily married, and they're getting all of these different points of.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: View and guess what?
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: It helps that younger client be curious.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: I love what you shared there about the kind of your own psychology really framework around like what was happening for you in that state of grief, especially around finances.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: There's the shame, there's some guilt, there's the representation piece of what that money means, and then the outward display from a behavioral standpoint, how that was manifesting there.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that is just so valuable for anyone, but particularly financial advisors, to keep in mind and to hold is that if you do have a widow who is coming to you either after a loss, right, as a first-time client, like they're coming to you, right?
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_01: New client and they've lost.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: Or if you've been working with them as a couple, right, and the male partner who maybe was the primary financial partner in that relationship, if they've passed, like just understanding that female widow, right, she might be experiencing a lot of deeper emotions that maybe she's not even realizing as it relates to finances, the the guilt, the shame, the identity piece too, right?
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: The who now, like kind of who am I?
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just curious, like from your from your side of things, you talked a little bit about how that might kind of manifest.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: Are there other things that advisors that would clue them into like, okay, this is a grief response?
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like this might be some sort of grief response behaviorally or nonverbal cues.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have any insights maybe to share there?
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: When you said nonverbal cues, it made me think about keep in mind women, women read body language first before anything comes out of your mouth.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: And so any type of advisor who isn't confident in this grief conversation, isn't comfortable in this grief conversation, is not going to open the conversation.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: So keep that in mind.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: And that's something I think I teach a lot.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: This is like body language on steroids.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: And we we do things that we don't even realize we're not doing.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: But to your question, when clients might say, I really want to remodel the house, but I don't really know how to start, most advisors would think about money.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: But maybe it's about they want to stay in the house, but they want to change it.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: Or I really want to sell the house, you know, I really want to downsize.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: The advisor might think that's about money.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: Well, maybe the person died in the house.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe the person no longer feels alone in the house.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: Any type of like urgent type of thing, I want to do this, I want to do this.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: Think about where that's coming from.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: Are there family?
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: Is there family that is influencing this?
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_00: Is this the money they want to purchase and get rid of?
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes just asking a question or doing an exercise, like an exercise that I have is they brainstorm all the questions they have on just a sheet of paper.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: And then the advisor can work with, well, this is a housing decision, this is an insurance question, this is a, you know, and then they can kind of put it in columns because again, it's those puzzle pieces.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: And you can tell your client, you know, before you come in, just start writing a list.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: Even if you think it's stupid, I think it's stupid, it's random, whatever.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: How do I find a plumber?
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: This is one thing that where advisors can understand and they can help.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: People who are suddenly solo no longer feel safe alone.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: They don't know who to trust.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I was a big fat fibber.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: I would just tell people that my husband was in the backyard and da-da-da-da.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: I would leave some boots outside the front because I no longer felt safe.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: We get taken advantage of, you know, when a widow walks on a car lot, that's not always the best result.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: And an advisor can start really thinking about, okay, this is what they asked me, like a they would need a plumber or an electrician or a car.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: How about developing wonderful curated resources for your client that you trust?
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: You don't need to take them to the car lot, okay?
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: I want you to empower me, give me a couple resources to buy a car.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_00: And if I have any questions, I could call you if I felt like it.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: But it goes back to we're trying to fix, fix, fix, because what your client has gone through is so incredibly sad.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: We want to help, but you can't go in and do it all.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: And part of empowering and teaching them things and protecting them, making them aware of certain scams, all of these things are pieces of that last piece of what I teach of how to empower.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: Because we think about a grieving client and we think about the during grief and after grief.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: But what we really should be focusing on before, we should be branding compassion, getting resources in line so that anybody looking on their website or whatever, or an email or a newsletter says, oh, here's the price of caregiving.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: Here are, you know, long-term care types of options.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: Because you may be working with a 30-year-old couple, but you know what?
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: They have aunts, uncles, grandparents, parents, and you are starting this conversation before.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: Because when you are heavy in resources and how to delegate it and you've curated it, don't send me to a tax person who's 30 years older than me.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: Then I'm gonna have to go find a new one.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: Have some curated options.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: And when you can do that, guess what?
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: You will be the first person, your advisor.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: You're the go-to person that your client will call when they need something.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: You become invaluable.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, don't we all have that one person, that go-to, that just knows?
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they seem to know what are all the connections.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's just a great overall strategy, right?
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: For having and and building that trust.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, as it relates to widows and clients who are grieving, I can see where that would be even more just necessary and valuable in building that trust and communicating that sense of safety.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: Now, you've given us a lot of examples of what advisors should do, right?
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: Build resources, curated lists, breaking down really that first year, those expectations, finding the corner pieces and the edge pieces, building that structure.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: Lots of examples of how to build compassion communication-wise.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: What I'm curious though, because I know you've got a list, Kathy.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: What are maybe a few examples of just blanket things like advisors should not do?
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: What should they stop saying?
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: What do they need to not do?
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: Because I would imagine some of them are listening and they're like, okay, I kind of understand this.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: What do I need to stop doing?
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: This is the money.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: This is what I teach.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: I want advisors to be grief literate.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: That means you know exactly what to say and exactly what not to say.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: And we all begin with, I'm sorry, or so sorry for your loss.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, that's been done.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: We can do so much better and do memorable things that truly land.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: So some of the worst sort of come into a category that's called disenfranchised grief.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: And when we say certain things, it almost sends the message to the griever that they're not allowed to feel this loss.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it could be a pet loss, it could be retirement, it could be a divorce, it could be any type of life transition is loss.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: When you have loss, you have grief.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_00: So we say things and we disenfranchise people's loss as if there's like a hierarchy, like one loss is more important than the other.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, well, at least they were, you know, 98, at least they lived a long life.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: So that's not as bad as a 40-year-old dying.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, why are you comparing age?
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: Because we are quantifiers.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: Our little brain, when it's tough, we go in to quantify, right?
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: And advisors who are numbers people, they're even more eager to come in with a fix.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, at least they lived a long life, at least they didn't have to suffer.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: Anything that begins with at least, get that out of your vocabulary.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you can say something like, somebody say, Well, you know, my grandfather died.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: And you can say, you know, tell me about your grandfather.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me some things that you loved about your grandfather.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: What was their name?
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and all of a sudden they want to talk about their grandfather.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't ask the age, I didn't ask how they died.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: That's another quantifier.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: When I say to somebody and they ask me, you know, I heard you were a widow.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, yeah, thanks, Einstein.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_00: You know, yes, I am.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: And they go immediately into how old was your husband when he died?
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: What did he die from?
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: How about you ask me about their life rather than their death?
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_00: We're all curious and we care, but if we want to connect, we want to ask them about their person.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: Another popular one is where we measure is you say, Well, my aunt died.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: I'm heading to their service this weekend.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_00: The first thing they say, Well, were you close?
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_00: Well, why does that matter?
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: It was my aunt.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: Why are we judging the closeness of a parent, an aunt, a stepparent, a stepchild?
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: And this gets us into trouble, okay, because then we start saying things that disenfranchise their grief.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: At least it wasn't your mom.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so what we're really saying is that when we offer the at least, is we're saying, you're gonna be okay, it's not as bad, and I don't want to talk about it.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's the message that the griever receives.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_00: And the last big one is comparing, okay?
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_00: The whole comparative suffering, my grief is bigger than yours, and so I'm gonna cut you off and tell you about my grandfather.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_00: And even when somebody I meet on a random place, like an airplane, I'm your worst nightmare because we're gonna get to know each other because I love people.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_00: And they will share with me something about their life, or they might say they lost their spouse, or whatever.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: I never share that I lost mine too.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody wants, you know, stop stealing their thunder.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's not your red carpet right now.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: This stranger just had the vulnerability and courage to share something personal.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: How about you find out about their life, their husband, their where they grew up, how did they meet?
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: I teach grief literacy.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_00: I want the whole world to become grief literate.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: I want to normalize these conversations.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's so much bigger than just the financial advisor arena.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: Because why is it not okay when somebody asks, How did you meet?
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: Well, my story's kind of sad, but my story is a great story, but I don't say it.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: Or somebody who lost a child and somebody says, Well, you know, how many children do you have?
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_00: Well, your child will always be your child.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: And it needs to be okay for us to share these stories with others and make them welcome.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: Holiday stories of people who have passed need to be normalized.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: And having the conversation and welcoming these in makes people feel apart because grief is a lonely business.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I know how to clear a room, I play the widow card and people scram.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: I could see where that would be strategically used, right?
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe I can be a little naughty.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_00: I'll be admitted, and I'll play the widow card.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: But it's true.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_00: We don't know how to respond, we don't know what to say, we don't truly know what not to say.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_00: We ask questions where we think we're caring, but they're very invasive and they they they hurt.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's like I don't want to bring a bouncer around with me so somebody won't ask me questions that send me in a grief spiral.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I think advisors have such a chance to be protectors of their clients.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I think this is such a gap, a conversational gap between grief and money, that if 70% are leaving you, where are they going?
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: If this isn't an opportunity for your company to brand compassion, to be the go-to grief literate advisor, I don't know what you're waiting for.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there's a lot there with respect to, I'm hearing you say, ensuring that you are managing aware, I'm not sure which one, probably both, your own personal feelings, discomfort around grief and loss as well, right?
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_01: That talking about it can bring up discomfort, certainly.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_01: And being mindful and aware, right, of that, but also not allowing that discomfort, being able to challenge yourself to say, well, okay, I kind of stumble on my words there anytime this client comes up and I don't know if I should ask about their husband that's passed.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what do I do?
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_01: I hear a lot of advisors sometimes get in their heads, right?
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know what to do.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I guess maybe after everything that you've shared here with us today, I would imagine there are a few that are like, oh gosh, like, okay, that makes sense.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't mean to offend them, right?
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_01: Or when I make that comparison, or if I say, I'm sorry for your loss, like I think I'm doing well.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_01: Speaking to, you know, our listeners here, if those are thoughts that you've had or have have occurred, Kathy is offering right some suggestions, but an opportunity, and those are the red flags to say, Oh, maybe I need a little bit of grief literacy here.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't realize, right, that that was maybe a thing to learn how to be grief literate, right?
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_01: I I would imagine most probably don't.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: But if those are thoughts, if it's I'm just I'm uncomfortable maybe in talking about this, or I don't know how to, or I don't want to offend, like those are really great thought moments that say, okay, here's what I can do about it.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: I can reach out to Kathy, I can learn more, I can implement some of the things that she's you know shared here today.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_01: If there were Kathy, maybe one small but meaningful action step that you would want to leave our listeners with, if you that you would want to leave financial advisors with, what would that action step be, other than reaching out and engaging in in your content?
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_01: What would be that action step that you would encourage them to do here today?
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_00: I think I'm gonna give you a two-part.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_00: I think number one, to give yourself grace as an advisor, knowing that nobody's been taught this before.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_00: This is a skill set that is recognizing to be new and a need.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_00: And that, you know, if you want to learn something, you just go take a course.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's no different if I wanted to learn a new skill.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_00: And because we think, well, we should know this, and then we go, then we feel bad about it.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: And then we go, well, I shouldn't have said this to a past client.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_00: No, we have today.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_00: We don't have backwards, okay?
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_00: The toes are on the front of the shoe, not the back.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: And the second thing is, is I will say, my biggest tip is to, with anybody you know who has lost somebody, mention their name.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_00: Mention their name and say, you know, I I don't want you to be sad, but I want to tell you that I think of John so often, you know, that just is soothing.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_00: If you know it's the day they died, send them a text and say, I really think of him and this is why I miss him.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_00: And no, no response required.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_00: Send a card and tell them what this person meant.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: If it's a young couple that lost a child back to school, it's really difficult.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: Send them a card, call them and say, I'm sure this is a very difficult day.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_00: Just they will always be your husband, your dad, your child.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_00: When other people remember them, say their name.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_00: That memory lives forever.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_00: And don't be afraid that you're gonna say something wrong, you're gonna not say it right, when you say their name and that you care.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_00: That's your antidote.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_00: It really is.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what I encourage.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_01: Such a wonderful way to wrap us up, Kathy.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for everything that you've shared today.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_01: There are, I think, 5.2 million different little nuggets that you like dropped here is so, so impactful.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_01: And thank you to all of you for tuning in and allowing Kathy and I into your ears and into your mind today.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_01: If you found value in today's episode, I know I did, but if you found value in today's episode, I'd love for you to stay connected with us.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_01: You can follow me on LinkedIn at Ashley Kwame, follow Kathy also on LinkedIn.
• 39:29
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• 39:32
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• 39:44
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• 39:47
  SPEAKER_01: They're inspired by those guests, but we want to make sure that we are equipping you with those resources beyond just the episodes that we drop here.
• 39:55
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• 40:03
  SPEAKER_01: And remember, finances don't have feelings, but your clients do.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_01: Until next time, keep planning, keep growing, and keep going beyond.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for joining me on this episode of Planning and Beyond.
• 40:16
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• 40:22
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• 40:28
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• 40:33
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• 40:59
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