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Resilience, Risk, and Taking Up Space with Deborah Dixon · Tits, Wit, & Grit

• Sara Frasca: So today, We are so excited to welcome Deborah Dixon. Deborah is one of my very dear friends and clients of many years and is ⁓ an attorney out of San Diego. And Deborah has won so many awards that it would take me about an hour to go through all of them. I mean, we're talking best lawyers in America, super lawyer, top lawyer, all the things she has done, so many things. We'll ask her a little bit about that. But in short, ⁓ she's a prominent Laura Raether: Thank Sara Frasca: San Diego attorney, a trial lawyer known for her plaintiff work in very complex litigations against big corporations and bad guys and all of that, ⁓ but also has played a role in the NFL, which is really unusual because we know it's kind of a, I would say primarily masculine ⁓ or male dominated field. So Deborah, welcome. Tits Wit and Grit is a podcast created to hold honest, intelligent conversations with women who lead, build, and navigate demanding professional lives. This podcast was born from a belief that women benefit from spaces where experience is honored, perspective is shared openly, and leadership can be discussed in both depth and candor, and maybe even a little laughter. Each episode brings forth voices that will offer insight Deborah Dixon: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited for this conversation. Tracy Laskos: you Sara Frasca: drawn from their experience, and we will all speak honestly about leadership, resilience, ambition, and personal evolution. So let's get started. Tits, wit, and grit. Well, we're happy to have you here because you certainly have seen a lot and we want to dive in. Tracy Laskos: Absolutely. Laura Raether: All right, are ready, Deborah? I'm starting out hot, maybe. Why rapid fire? I mean, it is Little Friday after all, so we're kind of in that mindset, right? ⁓ Tell us about kind of an ⁓ shit moment that changed the trajectory of your career. ⁓ And as much details as you can share, like, ⁓ what happened? And I don't know if you said ⁓ shit or not, but we'd to hear it all. Deborah Dixon: Yes, I am. Rapid fire. Yeah. So one, one, just one oh shit moment? that what we're doing? Laura Raether: What? Yeah. Tracy Laskos: No. We got time. Deborah Dixon: You know, I would say that there have been so many ⁓ shit moments over the years Where there are revelations? I think that one of the most amazing things about all of the women on this podcast and and the women that are listening because they're tuned into this type of community is the ever desire to continue to improve the ever desire to work on ourselves to have better perspective, to take learning moments and actually learn from them. I have heard that saying sorry is manipulation unless you change your action. And I think that that's one distinction that we make is many of us want to learn from those ⁓ shit moments. Sometimes it is an ⁓ shit, that was so great, how do I replicate that? And then sometimes it is shit, what just happened? ⁓ And all of them are learning. points and so I would say that over the years when I have had those ⁓ shit moments from deciding to go to law school I distinctly remember going ⁓ shit now I'm gonna have to apply for law school now I'm gonna have to be in three more years of school I was so ready to be done with college but then I could not ignore the feeling and the consistent feeling of wanting to be a lawyer and wanting to advocate for people ⁓ as a profession. And so that was a huge ⁓ shit moment. And then of course, many in law school, taking the bar exam, passing the bar exam, being a young lawyer. But in all of those, what I have tried to learn and the overall concept that it continues to bring me back is I have to trust myself. And I think as women, that is a very big ⁓ shit moment for me in my life and what I've seen other ⁓ women, and maybe you all have experienced this, which is so often we're not trusted. What we're said is not believed. What we are explaining as symptoms to our medical professionals are ignored. What we are telling our colleagues is downplayed. We are not given the credit that we are due in so many aspects. I think that's just generally how society has treated us. And so we start second guessing. start learning, ⁓ wait, I'm feeling uncomfortable but maybe that's just me overreacting. We try to justify our behavior and such a big ⁓ shit moment for me was time and time again, okay, see, you're gonna trust yourself, okay, we're gonna, we are going to lean into that feeling that you're having because it means something. Don't ignore it. It's gonna keep coming. Haven't you learned? It's gonna keep coming. Laura Raether: you Deborah Dixon: And so I would just say that's sort of like an overall general ⁓ shit moment that I have had repeatedly and I am reminded constantly that that is ultimately ⁓ what I need to be doing more of. Sara Frasca: I actually said in a meeting today, Laura was in it, but there were also a bunch of men and I said, am I overreacting here? And I think it's a really profound, like I cannot do that. Like I had an instinct, clearly something was giving me a bad feeling. ⁓ man, that's good. Deborah Dixon: And it's not just work, it's the intuition that we have. I now they're able to identify sort of more through biology, now that they're actually paying attention to women's bodies and women are being included in clinical trials and all those things, ⁓ since we're 50 % of the population. ⁓ But they're actually being able to identify sort of those reactions that women have because, again, life experiences but also... Tracy Laskos: you Deborah Dixon: The feeling, like when we say, I feel it in my stomach, I feel it in my chest, like those are actual things that they're being able to identify. And so for so long, it's always worried about overreaction, always worried about, I must be misreading the situation. ⁓ must, I'm being too sensitive or I'm, you know, kind of goes hand hand with we raise a lot of our young women to feel afraid of everything because that's easier if women are afraid. ⁓ But when we decide to be brave, then it's like, wait, we have to still worry. And am I worrying too much? So I think, Sara, we've all felt that. Like, am I overreacting? Or I'm going to blame it on something else that maybe it's not actually me trusting myself. Sara Frasca: Yes. Mm-hmm. Laura Raether: Yeah, I mean I think a women's intuition is Tracy Laskos: I'm Laura Raether: amazing and it's powerful and I do think it's something that women have. think men have it, I think women have it to like a super duper sense. ⁓ You know, I have two daughters and I talk to them about kind of trust your intuition and in certain situations trust your creep meter because I think we do have a creep meter where whatever you want to say, hairs on the back of our neck, stand up, feeling in our gut, whatever it might be, palms get sweaty, but it's like that intuition Deborah Dixon: Yes. Yes. Yes. Laura Raether: creep meter stuff is real and I'm glad we've got it. Sometimes we don't use it. Sara Frasca: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Deborah Dixon: I am full agreement with what you're saying. Not only am I glad that we have it, but I do think that we do have to use it. And I think that one of the reasons that we have it at a higher level, we have this intuition, we have this, you know, is because we have had to. And we've been in so many situations where we've had to say, I need to figure out the room. I need to figure out who is going to be friendly, who is going to be creepy, who is going to be, you know, should I be scared in this situation? We have had to navigate those. And that... Tracy Laskos: Mm-hmm. Deborah Dixon: is like any other muscle where it is used and so it gets larger. And so for many men who have had the privilege of not being in a parking lot and being worried about where you are or not being told how to carry your car keys or where you park, mean, that is privilege, but that just strengthens that muscle. And then yet when we're feeling it, we don't want to believe it or we don't want to listen to it. And so I think that's wonderful advice that you're giving to your daughters. Tracy Laskos: Yeah, absolutely. Sara Frasca: Yeah, me too. It's funny, I was telling my husband I had such a great time traveling with Laura, like a week ago, we were in Chicago together for maybe four days. And one of the reasons was that traveling with another woman was, I had a breath. I was actually enjoyed myself more. And I would say most of the time I love traveling, but I'm traveling by myself or I'm traveling, and there was just this comfort with like, I'm safer, because there's two of us. Laura Raether: Thanks. Tracy Laskos: We. Deborah Dixon: Yeah. ⁓ Yeah, yeah. Tracy Laskos: This is too good. Sara Frasca: Anyway, I do think it is something that men don't understand. There's like this biological, like, well, survival mode instinct that's like on. And then when I was recognizing like, yeah, it was turned off and it was like a really fun, relaxing way to travel. anyway, ⁓ the other thing I was going to say, Deborah, based on what, you know, ⁓ trusting your instinct, I can remember one time where it was a really positive. Deborah Dixon: Yeah. Sara Frasca: And it was a male doctor in this case. And it was when I had my first baby. And you know, you're leaving the hospital and you got this thing and you're like, ⁓ my God, like I can't believe they're letting us leave with this thing. And you know, you don't even have to sign anything. You're just like walking out with it. And the doctor said to me, before there were doctors, there were moms. And I was like, ⁓ my gosh. And I get goosebumps when I say this story because I was like, holy shit, like I. Deborah Dixon: You Tracy Laskos: Mm. Deborah Dixon: Mm-hmm. Bye. Yeah. Sara Frasca: am gonna be fine. Like because I have the instincts in me, nobody has to teach me, I've got it. And so again, there are some really positives, even though there are also some really negatives, so. Laura Raether: And if you don't, there's therapists. Yes, and. Deborah Dixon: Yeah. ⁓ Sara Frasca: Yes, Yeah. Deborah Dixon: Yes, yes. Yeah, I love hearing that. love I'm so going to steal that Sara and remind, you know, my friends and all of us that, know, before there were doctors, there were mothers and that it is true. You know, I think that we have a lot of support in medicine, not necessarily with women, but you know, there are good things that are coming out of out of medicine, but those kind of reminders, which is but you can do this ⁓ have been doing it since the beginning of time. Tracy Laskos: I love it. Sara Frasca: Yeah. Tracy Laskos: Yeah. I love the kind of building upon what you're talking about. And it's something that I have worked on for many, many years, Deborah, is learning the art and the gift of extending grace. So as a leader ⁓ in whatever vertical, right? But specifically in the legal space, right? Having grace just for those learning opportunities as you're creating your space, finding your voice. Deborah Dixon: Yeah. Tracy Laskos: as an attorney, as a leader, as an entrepreneur, we have those opportunities where we're taking that leap of faith, we're leaning into the intuition and we're saying, yes, right? But then there's that pause and like, well, shit, that didn't work out. And we have the choice in that moment to be like, okay, it didn't work out, I'm never doing that again. Or we can sit back and be like, okay, it didn't work out, but I learned this or giving yourself that moment of grace and. Sara Frasca: That's it for today's episode of Tits, Wit and Grit, where bold women, big ideas, and a little bit of fearless attitude collide. Deborah Dixon: Yes. Yes. Tracy Laskos: I guess I'm curious because it's something that I continue to work on on a daily basis and similar to Laura teaching my daughter, right? What grace looks like. Is there an experience or a moment of grace that you gave yourself throughout your career, throughout your life, whether it's professional or personal? Deborah Dixon: Mm-hmm. Tracy Laskos: If today's conversation sparked something for you, share it with someone who needs it and make sure you're subscribed so you don't miss what's coming next. Deborah Dixon: think it is something I am actively working on. I think I did not understand the importance of giving myself grace until I had felt that I had earned that, which is the opposite of grace. And I think that I was harder on myself than I was on others. It was very easy for me to give others grace. It was very easy for me to come up with a really good explanation for why things happen and have understanding for others. Wasn't always the easiest for myself to give me grace. And I was just talking about it literally before this call on a call with another lawyer. And I just had repeated that, you know, we all do need to give each other grace, but we also need to give ourselves grace. And so when I think the legal field capitalizes on this concept of competition and ⁓ outperforming because it is one of the only professions that I am aware of where you have somebody hired on the other side to disagree with everything that you do and say and to come up with every mistake or counter argument that you can. So in medicine, doctors are collaborative. ⁓ In accounting firms, people are collaborative. they're saying, nope, you missed a one. Nope, they're just, hey, let's work together, let's figure it out. In the law, because of our system, our advocacy system, I always have an opposing counsel who is wanting to make an argument against everything that I say. And if I make a mistake, it will be noted, it will be addressed. And so it is very difficult in those situations to give grace because you know someone is going to be. Laura Raether: Remember, show up with confidence, trust your wit, and never underestimate the of grit. See you next time. Deborah Dixon: checking everything that you do and that you say, I understand why, because we need to be making sure that we are correct, we're making arguments. That being said, there doesn't leave a lot of room for saying, that's okay. You know, that one's not gonna be that big of a deal. And so recently, I would say that once I felt comfortable enough in my own space as far as, okay, I have been in the legal industry for a while now, I am not brand new. There is not many things that come across Tracy Laskos: you Laura Raether: You Deborah Dixon: my desk that I have not seen or heard of before. I mean the content maybe, but the ideas of it. And so then I started being able to say, I have been able to give grace to others. I've been able to say anything that needs to be done to be fixed can be fixed. So I've started to try to really tell myself that too. ⁓ It goes along with the idea that it doesn't have to just be me doing things. That's why you have a team. Sara knows that delegation is a difficult concept for someone who has created a hyper independent life. And so learning to delegate and trust other people is difficult. When you have a wonderful team, it becomes easier, but still that idea of that's okay. If I give it to somebody else, we can still work on it collaboratively. If I have done something that is wrong, I am okay admitting it. When I was a younger lawyer, The last thing I felt comfortable doing was saying, I'm sorry I didn't understand that. Can we say that again? Even in a deposition of somebody who was supposed to be able to explain it to me, I would just nod my head, sound words out in my head, write it down as if I had an idea what they were talking about, because I was too fearful to say, I'm sorry, I don't understand what it is that you're asking me to do. I've never heard... Laura Raether: you Deborah Dixon: that word, can you please say it to me again so I can write it down slowly? ⁓ And now I just don't have any problem ⁓ doing that. I think there's a level of security that we feel that we're not brand new lawyers. ⁓ And also that we've just come to the idea that I'm very well aware that I am not perfect. And I don't even try to pretend to other people that they might think that I am. There's just no facade anymore. I'm so past that. Tracy Laskos: Yeah. Laura Raether: room. you Tracy Laskos: Yes. Sara Frasca: There is some beauty in that as you age, like I feel like there are chapters in life where like you kind of go over a hill and it's like screw that, like I'm not taking any of that on anymore. I mean like none of us are old but it's like oh my god thank god we're not that young anymore. There's like beauty almost. Deborah Dixon: Yeah. ⁓ Laura Raether: comment. Deborah Dixon: Yes. You know, one of the things that you should ask along, Laura, with that, you know, ⁓ shit moment is no shits. Because I will just say that there are more and more of no shits to be given. Like I am so sorry. ⁓ We have ⁓ shit and no shit. just, you know, there's just a time of I can't hold on to that anymore. I can't take on what you are projecting. I just am not going to do it anymore. Tracy Laskos: Hmm. Laura Raether: I like it. I love it. ⁓ Tracy Laskos: Yeah. Yeah. Ha! Laura Raether: Yeah, I like it. I love that build. Do I need to pay you a licensing fee for that? Okay, you heard it here everybody. We're making t-shirts, yeah. All right, Deborah, so tell us about sticking with our tits wit and grit. Give us some grit, gritty moments, career. Give us some good stuff. Sara Frasca: me too. Deborah Dixon: Yeah. No, you have that. You have that one. Yeah, so I would say there's, ⁓ I love this idea because there's books that are written about how you have to have the grit and then there's, you the books that are written like you can't teach hungry and all these things and women lawyers have been talking about this resilience and this grit that it takes to be in this industry, particularly, I mean, I can only speak from my industry, but it's everywhere. ⁓ And that concept was so significant to me and it just resounded. so clearly to me when I heard it the first time because that I knew I could have. I may not have the IQ of every single person that I was going to come up against, you know, these Harvard grads, these, yeah, great, awesome. I may not have their IQs, but there was not going to be a doubt in my mind that I was going to have more grit or at least the same grit. And to me, it is infiltrated every part of my career. ⁓ in that it is, you know, there is nothing that someone's going to do to be able to outwork me in a case. I go up against large law firms, some of the largest law firms in the world on cases. And my firm, there's a total of eight of us. There's four other lawyers other than me. And I'm not always by myself in the law firm. But there have been plenty of times where it has just been, you know, my small team going up against the largest in the world. And that grit, is triggered daily. It's triggered in the cases that I take on. It is triggered in my steadfast belief that we still should have justice. We still should have accountability. We still should have the right to have redress in our court systems and against corporations or people who are doing things that are wrong. And so ⁓ it sometimes allows me to work the very long hours that you have to work to put in what I believe you have to do to win. It allows me to have the empathy that I have for my clients that I want to work as hard and I want to dig deep and I want to have that grit in the cases for them. But quite frankly, it was what made me feel that I could start my own law firm. It was what made me feel that I could take on this ridiculous notion that I could be the head legal counsel for an NFL team. You know, the concepts of, you know, we're going to do this and we're going to figure it out. And people would say, well, how are you going to do those things? I don't know, but I'm going to do it. I'm going to figure it out. And I think that innate sense of grit, like I didn't, there are many a times when I doubt myself. ⁓ But those are becoming quieter and quieter and the relying on experience of, you have done this, you have been able to do this. Those are the things that I try to listen to louder, which is I may not know the full plan. As Phoebe and friends says, I may not even have a plot, but I know I'm going to do it. Laura Raether: Yeah, I love it. I love it. Sara Frasca: Thank you I mean. Deborah Dixon: You can cut the whole Phoebe thing, but it's often a statement. I don't even have a plug. Laura Raether: No, that's good. Tracy Laskos: I love it. Sara Frasca: sort of think the fact that you took on both at the same time is again just indicative of the type of grit you had. So, I mean, I was with you and for our listeners, you know, I had the total honor of being kind of by your side as you started this, ⁓ you know, this NFL, whatever you call it, general counsel or that role while opening a law practice. for the first time. mean, like both happened at the same time. Both were highly successful. Again, all because of your grit. Deborah Dixon: You know, I was ⁓ some say insane and that may be, you know, I guess there is some insanity in all the things that people do. ⁓ But it was in a time where I, as Sara knows, and I think you all know, ⁓ you we had started a firm, I ⁓ was doing it sort of under the umbrella of another lawyer. And then I ⁓ had partners that we were kind of just, you know, in this great partnership that. felt like I had some sense of security because I just had not just me on the whole firm. But then I was managing the firm and right after, within a year of me saying yes to doing something ridiculous such as I'm going to take on this extra role right before that, like six months before, we had decided we're not gonna... we're going to only work together on these cases and we're going to actually hire employees and we're going to sign a lease and we're going to open up a real law firm. ⁓ And then on the heels of that, I get this phone call about joining the NFL team and it was crazy. And then through that progress, it became my own firm. And so shortly after doing that, it was transitioned to only, only me. And so that was the progression of doing those things at the same time. Tracy Laskos: Mm. Deborah Dixon: You Tracy Laskos: Astounding. mean, that really, really is. I mean, I'm curious, how was the experience and being, you know, associated with the NFL being general counsel, what was that experience like for you? I mean, because similar to what Sara said before, I mean, it's a very, it's, mean, it's, it's a male sport, like in here you are coming in as a powerful female. was that experience like? Laura Raether: Yeah. Deborah Dixon: Yes. Yeah. Honestly, fantastic. there were so many moments where I was familiar with the idea of I was the only in the room. And I think, again, as women, that is also a muscle that we have built over time is being very comfortable with being the only. And in In the beginning when you are that, you are very aware of that. And then all of sudden it just becomes like, yeah, that's right, I'm going to walk in and I'm going to be the only. Now, there were a couple other teams that had general counsel that were women. It was often though, because it is, there are so many males who play the sport. Obviously there's only men who play, and coaches and ⁓ athletic trainers and all things. And the front office with the CFOs, the COOs, know, things like that. ⁓ But I found the experience to be extremely rewarding. ⁓ It has been some of the most interesting transition in a career of doing something like that, which is not like the things I've been doing. You know, I've been a litigator my entire career and that was very different. But I did find it to be interesting. The other thing I will say is I think it gave me some confidence that I didn't know that I would gain from it. which is always great. As women, they do all the studies that by the time of 10, little girls' confidence start losing and they don't ever fully get it back. It's all of the things. Before that, everybody wants to say they're president and then all of sudden little girls start saying, I want to be pretty. That's not the same thing. Men are still saying they want to be president, they want to be astronauts, they want to be engineers, they want to be... ⁓ So you start seeing that dip and... anything we can do that gives us that extra boost. But I will say the reason that I felt a little bit of confidence is walking into the room thinking, I don't belong in this room, and then quickly realizing, neither do any of them. Laura Raether: No. Sara Frasca: That's great. Deborah Dixon: like, okay, I can do this because if they can do it, I can do it. Laura Raether: Deborah, I'm gonna ask on that, like being the only one or one of few, did you also find it kind of like, well, I'm gonna use this to my advantage. Like, you know, like. Deborah Dixon: Yeah, well. You don't, so here's the interesting thing. You don't really, ⁓ you don't get lost in the crowd. You kind of stick out. So that was an advantage. ⁓ We would have meetings and there would be, know, other general councils and things like that that were women. It was most interesting when I would show up to sort of like the owner meetings that they had because that was when it was very obvious that there was very few women and also that they all were like, well, Laura Raether: Yeah. Deborah Dixon: you're not somebody I know, you're not somebody I recognize. And so you start becoming very aware in those situations. And I think there are a lot of ways to use that to your advantage. I think sometimes we tend to observe and figure out, what's this going to feel like? And then once we realize that we have something to add, that our opinion does matter, then it becomes easier. But yeah, I would say one of the things I've learned in my career is I am completely fine being underestimated now. It still happens and I am completely fine with it. I hated it when I was a young lawyer because I didn't want to be underestimated and I wanted them to know that I was a lawyer and I didn't want to be asked if I was the court reporter. Court reporters are amazing and doing what they do is really important but I didn't go to school for that. I went to school to be a lawyer but because I was a woman and I walked in in a deposition, I was frequently asked if I was the court reporter. ⁓ And it just made you feel like you're not the you're not there as the lawyer, you're there as something else, or you don't belong, you don't look like you belong, you don't, you know. And so going to court and being asked if I was the client, if I was representing myself, just not assuming that I was a lawyer. ⁓ And so I hated it when I was younger, ⁓ being at lunches with other colleagues who were my age, but they were men, and judges would come up and they'd say, ⁓ it's so nice you take your secretary to lunch. And I'm like, I don't... What about us looks different except that I'm a woman and you just assumed I was a secretary? And ⁓ it wasn't even like they were old. My colleagues were my age and I was the only woman, so they assumed they were taking me to lunch because I was their secretary. So I hated it. But now I definitely don't mind it because it means that people are not going to assume that I am as capable as I know that I can. And I definitely ⁓ am happy to have people underestimate me. ⁓ Tracy Laskos: No Sara Frasca: I'm sorry. Laura Raether: Mm-hmm. Deborah Dixon: find that I can gather a lot more information when I'm underestimated. Laura Raether: That's awesome. Sara Frasca: Do you clap back at that ever? like, again, like I feel like I'm getting snottier in my old age. Like, you wanna like, you know, put them in their place. Like, what do you do? Deborah Dixon: So ⁓ when I was younger, would, it's, know, the, do you do when you're in a situation, people have the fight, flight or freeze reaction. And I would freeze a lot when I was younger because I would be more stunned. Like what, why? More like confused, what was I? And then there was a couple of times I clapped back, then people, ⁓ sorry. ⁓ Laura Raether: one. Deborah Dixon: Sometimes it would be as simple as, ⁓ no, I understood, I'm a woman and therefore you didn't think that I was the lawyer. Now I will say in a deposition, this one lawyer, when I was a younger lawyer, ⁓ he continued to refer to me as honey in the deposition. And it was, ⁓ honey, ⁓ honey, ⁓ And at first when he did it, I mean was red hot and I was like, I don't know, but we're in a... And so after he did it like four times, I said, excuse me, I prefer sweetie. Thank you. And the reporter's eyes, she just like lit up and she looked at me and he goes, ⁓ And I was like, well, you've been calling me honey and that's not my name either. So if you want to ask, I prefer sweetie. And he just kind of stopped. And it was just like a way to say like, I have caught this. You have done it repeatedly. ⁓ sometimes when people will say things like that, I will say, Deborah, ⁓ I don't know what. Laura Raether: Ha ha ha! Deborah Dixon: My name is Deborah and so then there then they it's like yeah I heard what you said, but I'm gonna ignore that you just said it I had it happen to me I think Sara shared this with you that I was in a meeting and related to the NFL and one of the other Attorneys on the other side purposely. I was the only woman and and he said Hi, sweetie, and I just didn't him trying ⁓ pretend desperately that he wasn't talking to me when I knew he was, but I was like, well, it's not me, I'm not sweetie and I'm not, not my name. And so I just acted like it wasn't to me when I know very clearly it was, but I didn't know how else to address it in this meeting. And so I was like, well, I'm gonna ignore it as if it wasn't to me. So it's really hard in those situations to figure out what to do. I'm sure you all have those experiences. Laura Raether: and Tracy Laskos: and Laura Raether: Yeah. Sara Frasca: Unfortunate? Yes. Tracy Laskos: Mm-hmm. Laura Raether: How do you, I'm sorry, how do you help, you I know you have some young professionals in your office, like, how do you help them so that, know some of it's like experience, but just like. Deborah Dixon: So none of that would ever happen in my presence to another lawyer that works in my office because while there are many things that I can feel like I can handle and I can take because of things that I experience I have in my career and maybe this level of extra thick that I have gained, if somebody did that to another lawyer in my office, I would be immediately responding. Laura Raether: Yeah. Deborah Dixon: that is not her name, you will not speak to her that way, you will not refer to her as that. I would probably follow it up with a letter to say if you want to speak to Ms. So-and-so again in my office, you will not refer to her as that. There is no doubt in my mind that in that moment I would have no problem coming. Laura Raether: Okay, stop. Are you hiring? Because every woman that's listening to this podcast who's in your field is going to be like, hire me. I mean, because that's amazing, Deborah. We don't hear that. We... Deborah Dixon: Yeah, there is no doubt in my mind. Yeah. Tracy Laskos: No. Laura Raether: you know hats off to you for like it's stopping we the three of us have talked about like why are we still having some of these issues to this day like why aren't we standing up why aren't the leaders who are leaders saying things so you as a owner leader love it Deborah Dixon: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And again, sometimes you accept things more than you would accept it for somebody else. And again, but no tolerance for it to be happening to anybody else. I mean, I have done that when people have disrespected paralegals, legal assistants, lawyers in my office. I am like, you will lose your privilege to speak to them if you speak to them like that. Again, that is not acceptable behavior. And I have no problem doing it. I fully believe, and then Sara, I know you wanted to say something, in the notion of amplification. So if I am in a meeting where I often am the only woman, but maybe there's another one, I don't care what is said, I would say, I agree with Laura. I like Laura's point. Tracy had a great point when she said that because you otherwise, we know that we are what we said and someone will either mansplain it or they will say, ⁓ I think this is a great idea and you just said that idea. And so I have been in meetings where I have said, Laura Raether: Yeah, great. Tracy Laskos: Yeah. Deborah Dixon: You know what? I did think it was a great idea. I thought it was a great idea the first time Sara said it. And I really want to go back to what she said. I have been in meetings and done that because I'm like, no, no, we're not doing this. This happens all the time and it's not happening in my presence anymore. Laura Raether: Yeah. Sara Frasca: Yeah, what I was going to say is that we have taken an active stance in helping to rehabilitate the male clients we have when they call their staff girls. And so just know, like we are arm and arm with you on this. sorry, like none of us are girls at this point. You've got certified paralegals, you've got attorneys, you've got all sorts of wonderfully qualified people. And we're going to just help you like get into the now, the here and now, like Tracy Laskos: Mm. girls. Deborah Dixon: Yaboya! Sara Frasca: Let's call them women if nothing else. Like, yeah. Deborah Dixon: Thank you. Thank you. You can say women, you can say ladies if it's too difficult for you not to remember. So what I have started to do is two things. One, sometimes I will flat out say, I have not been a girl since 12 years old. So please, that is not how I am referred to. But sometimes I will then say, I know, I was thinking about the boys when they were doing it because then people go, wait, what? And it's like, I know it sounds ridiculous. Tracy Laskos: Yes. Deborah Dixon: So it's just as ridiculous when you say it to us because we are women. I had a photographer come to my office to photograph me for a feature article that was going to be done on me and my firm. The article was doing an article, you know, they were writing an article on me. And he kept referring to, at that time there was, I only had women working in my office. Now I have one man. And he kept referring to us as girls. And girls, and then the poses were so inappropriate. He'd like, lean forward like this a little bit. you know, the, ⁓ girls, what do you girls do? And I'm like, you see what we do is on the name of our firm when you walk in. Like I was, and I finally said after the third time, because at first I'm like, okay, it's okay Deborah, calm it down. And then finally I said, none of us are girls. That is not how you were referred to us. ⁓ and I said, I know, but it's not accurate. because it was constantly deflating and I didn't want them to think that that is an acceptable way. They were photographing a bunch of women who were working in a law firm who were doing incredible work and he was like, what is it that you do? it was just, no, I'm not doing it. Tracy Laskos: Yeah. Laura Raether: Did he ask you to like lay your head with this, with a rose on it? Deborah Dixon: It was like lean forward and do this and I was like, and I said, nope, none of us are doing that because we have different bodies. I know exactly what that was going to feature. And it was like, stick your hip out with your, and I said, none of us are doing that. You can take pictures like us like this. We will sit. If you want us to sit, we are not leaning across our desks and pushing ourselves forward or backwards or to the side. Thank you. Tracy Laskos: Good. Laura Raether: Love it. You know what that is? That's all, that's good shit. Tracy Laskos: That is good shit. So we've got oh shit, no shit, good shit. We've got the trifecta of shit. Laura Raether: Good shit. Yeah, good shit. Yep. I'm writing it down. Deborah Dixon: I love it. I love it. That shirt I would wear. ⁓ Tracy Laskos: I love it. We're gonna get some t shirts, Deborah. I love it. I love it. mean, Deborah, I think you really covered like the wit aspect, right of tits wit and grit just through all of those amazing stories. But what I'd love to kind of lean into a little bit is the tits aspect, right? Like, what is it that you love about being a woman? Sara Frasca: Glory! Laura Raether: Yep, for sure. Deborah Dixon: I'm wearing it. I'm wearing it. So many things. Because I don't know anything else. you know, this idea of all the privilege that comes along with being a man. Yes, sure, I recognize it. But I love being a woman. And part of it is, in my mind, it's more how we raise our young girls and our women. And some of it is, you know, just the biology. First of all, as we celebrate in a women's History Month in March. I love the saying where they say, we created all of you. And so, I mean, that at its very core is pretty amazing that, you know, there was the quote when they said, you know, who do you think is better? And you start listening and they said, ⁓ yeah, women, women are better. And they said, yeah, because they you wouldn't be here without a woman, you know, and it is that idea. Laura Raether: Mm-hmm. Deborah Dixon: The things that I am aware that I see being necessary in particularly this environment, but just as a woman, and we are sort of coming into acceptance of it, is we have a lot of skills that have not been traditionally appreciated that I just think we need to highlight and we need to acknowledge because there are so many things that women have had to do over the years that are just not well recognized and taken for granted. Laura Raether: And for our male listeners, what are those skills? Deborah Dixon: Yes, exactly. for example, and there's tons of research. Yes. And there's tons of research on this about why our brains are more exhausted because of the amount of decisions we have to make in a day. And we handle that. We go through life. We may be on our menstrual cycle. I mean, how many of the Olympians were on their menstrual cycle? Sara Frasca: Ten fellows. Deborah Dixon: and they were performing at an Olympic and nobody once thought of it, but we are thinking of it. We are thinking, the figure skater who said, I have to be in this tight little outfit and I have to kick my leg up in front of the entire world. And there is a fear because, but we handle it. We are in pain and we handle it. And we acknowledge, nope, yep, the pain that they have recognized is like small heart attacks. We just act like nothing is happening. I have been in trial. I have, I mean, we all have been in situations like this. But every day we have to make a ton more decisions, the micro decisions. We have to be aware of logistics that are just rolling around in our head that men say, ⁓ you're better at it. Well, we have been socialized to be better at it. We have used that muscle. We multitask like none other. But above all, we still maintain our empathy. Laura Raether: you Deborah Dixon: and care for humanity. When we have the ability to the same things that we are accomplishing, we have proven over and over again we have the ability to be in every single industry and to thrive. And yet we do it with a lot more baggage that we have to still deal with a lot more issues. We still have to deal with a lot more burden that comes with being a woman in certain spaces and yet we're still able to succeed. So I love that. Sara Frasca: Okay, I have a really good capitalist idea and I'm gonna test it on you. And okay, so this is the marketing now. Hey, all you business owners out there, do I have an idea for you? I can drop 15 % or more to your bottom line instantly. Wanna know more? Hire all women. And if you want even more business owners out there, Tracy Laskos: Mm. Laura Raether: Yeah. Deborah Dixon: Yeah. ⁓ Sara Frasca: hire women of diversity, I can almost guarantee 50 to 45 % right to your bottom line. Because guess what? You don't have to pay them as much. I mean, Deborah, what in the heck? It's 2026. How are we going to fix this? Deborah Dixon: Yes. Yeah, I think still showing up. think time and time again, it's exhausting, but still showing up, not allowing ourselves to, you know what, we take the time we need, we rage, we, whatever it is, but then we keep showing up because we're gonna keep demonstrating, nope, we're still here. We're not going down. And I love this idea of over the years, like these rights that we have acquired, the right to vote, the right to have a credit card, the right to open up a bank account. Laura Raether: house. Tracy Laskos: Yeah. Deborah Dixon: a house, own my own business. These rights were not given to us. They were not said, we truly think you all are equal to us. It was, you are gonna give it to me and we are going to keep it and we are gonna show you how good this is for America, for the world, that women have financial independence, that women are just in every industry. And one day we won't be so remarkable for being women business owners because there will be so many of us. It'll just be one of the many and I can't wait for that day. But if I would say one thing that may or may not fit into this agenda, but I just have to say it. Men are not the standard. I do not look at men and say I can do what men can do because duh. It is I get to do what I want to do. I do not. value and say I'm going to do it the way that men have done it. I can do it the way that men have. They are just not the standard. And I think that that's a wonderful thing about being a woman is I don't need to compare myself to men because I refuse to believe they're the standard. It's somebody else in my industry. It's not a man in my industry. Laura Raether: Mm-hmm. Sara Frasca: It's the best. doesn't matter who the gender is or what the gender is or what the, yeah. Deborah Dixon: Correct. Correct. Tracy Laskos: person. Laura Raether: Okay, Deborah, I have to ask you a question. And again, this is your opinion. But do you believe that women help women enough? Or do you believe we kind of put the governor on things? Tracy Laskos: Mm. Deborah Dixon: In my experience, women help women. In my experience, there is a divide that men like to make about how women treat other women. And there are always gonna be, you know, that famous saying, there's a special place in hell for a woman that does not help another woman. know, I think that it's awful when we see it and you can see it. You can hear the rhetoric. You can hear people who are like, Laura Raether: Great. Deborah Dixon: buying into the misogyny. But in my experience, women have helped women. We can do better. Just like men can do better with helping women and men can do better. but this whole, I mean, we just have to get into a place where we have the same level of power because we're all, there's this idea that there can only be one of us. And I don't buy into that. If there can be one, there can be 10. And it's our job that if we get in that room that we bring other women into that room because we know that that effectuates the most change. But I think there is this fear of there's one woman who's going to be able to get this promotion. There's one woman who's ever going to be the CEO of this company. And that's where you get this fighting. And we buy into what men are looking at, is, but we already have one woman. We don't need another. But there's 12 other men. So why don't we say that? We have 11 other men, we don't need another. And that's not the concept. And so I think that creates this idea that we are competing against each other when we are not. Tracy Laskos: Yeah. Laura Raether: Well, good. I'm glad because sometimes I would say, I don't know if we've done enough for each other. And sometimes my experiences have been, you're exactly right. Well, only one SVP is going to get it. It's not going to be two, you know, it's only two women when it's maternity leave or something like that. They have to job share. yeah. Yeah. ⁓ Deborah Dixon: Yeah. Yeah. Sara Frasca: Yeah. Deborah Dixon: We can do more. I agree with you. We can do more. And we have to shed this idea that we're buying into. There can only be one of us. Because we have that fear. There can only be one woman who makes it in that level. And so I think we have to shed that and not buy into it. And we have to do more. I agree with that. Laura Raether: Yeah, I mean, we've even kicked around on this podcast, like, should we have a challenge for anybody who's listening and as this grows, like, you know, it's the challenge and whether it's equal pay for everybody, whether it's, you know, promotions or whatever it might be, we're kind of simmering on it still, but when you think of some of the successes that people have had rallying around a certain thing, you know, we think that there's opportunity. So stay tuned. Deborah Dixon: Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Sara Frasca: I love it. Okay, Deborah, one of my favorite stories about you that kind of involves the tits wit and grit components is a recent trial that you went through and you had a very, I'm gonna say humorous ending or at least kind of middle ending to this story because of ⁓ maybe somebody was a little less gritty than you. you tell our listeners that story? I know it well because, ⁓ boy, we had some good laughs, but tell our listeners what happened to you. Deborah Dixon: Yeah, so in part of my practice I take on, as I mentioned before, sort of these larger corporations. And in this particular one it was I represented a lot of people who were suing a very large corporation and they had a huge law firm defending them, lawyers from all over the country. And we were starting trial in San Francisco, so it was West Coast. I had to fly ⁓ as well as all the other lawyers. And after I had... already checked in my bag, was at the airport, was about to board the plane, literally in line to be boarding the plane, I get a phone call from one of the other attorneys that says that they're going to have to move the entire trial because another one of the attorneys was experiencing a medical condition. And that is all I heard. And of course my initial response, again, being a human being, was absolutely, of course, that this, you know, people's health takes priority over anything. I don't care who it was or what it is, absolutely. So I started trying to get my bags off the plane and I'm telling him I can't. And during this time I was particularly sensitive but I always would be human first in these situations. I don't care what it is. But I was particularly sensitive to it because I had just gone through a quite significant medical procedure myself and a medical issue where I had 34 staples in my skull going from the top of my forehead all the way down. And I had actually fastened fake bangs to my hair to cover the 34 staples. But I'm at the airport and I'm ready for trial and I'm and they don't know because I don't share my medical problems with other people. ⁓ And then after I'm getting my bags and I'm waiting for it, the lawyer calls me back and says, well the person had a bloody nose on the plane and they weren't sure if it was altitude or if it was a problem and so he's gonna need to be evaluated. And of course I was like, ⁓ that's awful. And then I thought in my head, and here I am with 34 staples across my head, fastening fake bangs so people don't see my staples across my head, ready for trial. And I was doing the entirety of the trial and this lawyer was taking one witness three days later from that. But sure, we will move the entire trial. Because we ended up moving it three months. Laura Raether: Yeah. Tracy Laskos: Yes. Sara Frasca: or they delayed it for six or seven months. Okay, three months. Deborah Dixon: ⁓ But still, you have witnesses lined up. I mean, it's not easy. And I just rolled myself back to the office and everyone's like, what's going on? I'm like, you know, there's a bloody nose. And I'm not downplaying bloody noses. very difficult. I'm not downplaying it. But again, this concept is, we bleed regularly and we still do this. Tracy Laskos: Yeah. Sara Frasca: Yeah. Tracy Laskos: Yep. Really good point. Laura Raether: Exactly. Deborah Dixon: And I never once said, hey, by the way, I have 34 staples in my head. I just said, OK, no problem. I understand. Everyone's level of their resilience is a little different. Tracy Laskos: Yep. Sara Frasca: Yeah, well, you prove yourself as my hero time and time again. So thanks for being willing to share that story. It's one of those that again, gives me goosebumps all over my body of just how brave you have been and that poor man, we're not saying, know, wasn't experiencing something terrible, but also just maybe different levels, just different levels of things that were happening. Laura Raether: Yeah. No. Deborah Dixon: No! Yeah, yes, yeah. And also it was, again, I thought in my head, the idea of asking to move or postpone the trial never crossed my mind. I have shown up when I have been in the emergency room with cysts ovarian cysts that have burst and I've been in the emergency room. Six o'clock in the morning I get out and I show up to the office and I don't let people know that I had just spent the last. Laura Raether: for Tracy Laskos: Yeah. Laura Raether: Yeah. Deborah Dixon: I mean, all the things that we do where the thought didn't even cross my mind to say, could we postpone that meeting? Could we postpone? And a trial? There's just no way. But again, that level of feeling comfortable to do that, I, in some respects, need to learn more of that. Where other people, particularly men in my field, feel very comfortable ⁓ rearranging people's schedules. They are okay with it. And that is something that I still am needing to work on. Laura Raether: Yep. That's crazy. I mean, crazy. Deborah Dixon: Yeah. It's a constant fear of and I know I'm changing topics but it is this fear that I'm working through of already the premise is you are weaker and therefore anything that makes it seem like we are I am very opposed to. just, you know, for me not a good thing. I shouldn't adopt that. But that's why it's like if I have to ask for a break then it's a weakness. it's not. It's not a weakness. I am a human. Sara knows like, ⁓ I have to, you know, most people have to use the restroom some part during the day. ⁓ just, now I'm starting to say, wait a minute, I need to take a 15 minute break if I'm in a deposition because I need to eat something. Whereas before, there's no chance. I would go all day and just say, that's okay, I don't need food. Like, my human body works off of air. Like, it's not true. It's just not. And so those are the things I'm still working through is... not being so afraid for people thinking that you are weak just because they already have this idea that maybe women are weak and we know we are not. Sara Frasca: Mm-hmm. Laura Raether: Correct. Well said. Well said. Tracy Laskos: Yeah, yeah, I love it. love it. Well, Deborah, with just a few minutes left, one of the things that we love to do is kind of rapid fire some questions for you. Are you ready? Yes, I love it. All right. So tell us your favorite book that helped shape you. Deborah Dixon: here for it. Yes. That's such a good question. So I would say there's a book called ⁓ Fail More Fear Less. ⁓ The whole idea is ⁓ not to be perfect. ⁓ And that changed me. There's been so many that I have read along the way of dealing with this idea that perfect is not the goal. ⁓ And so. you know, that's one that has certainly changed an aspect. There are many. I just finished Finding Me by Viola Davis, and it is incredible story of resilience and grit. I mean, what she has gone through and overcome, is incredible. So I highly recommend that one too, but that's just top of mind because I just finished it. Laura Raether: Thanks. Tracy Laskos: love it. see Laura writing it down, Laura. Laura Raether: Huh? I got it. I got it. Deborah Dixon: Yes, yes, yes, yeah. Tracy Laskos: Thanks, Lassie. Awesome. So next one, what is a mantra or phrase that you live by? Deborah Dixon: Oh, that is really good. I know it's supposed to be rapid fire. I think that a mantra phrase I can live by that I is I can do it. I can do it. And and it's sometimes it's good. Sometimes it's not because it's I can do it. And it's like, OK, well, I can do it. I'm not sleeping well, but I can do it. But but it's but it's a phrase that I try to to remind myself. And and, you know, the very basic one that we hear a lot, which is we can do hard things doesn't mean it's easy. Laura Raether: Hello? Tracy Laskos: Yeah. Laura Raether: Yep. Yep. Deborah Dixon: but we can do hard things. It's hard, but we can do hard things. Tracy Laskos: Yep, 100%, I love that. Sara Frasca: Well on that note, we're kind of at our time commitment with you, so I just want to thank you again for being such an amazing woman for other women and for the world. I really, it's just been an honor to know you and you do such amazing work and ⁓ thanks for being on the podcast. Deborah Dixon: Thank you. want to make one clarifying point. I'm so sorry. The actual full name of the book is Brave Not Perfect, Fear Less Fail More. So as soon as I said it, I was like, wait, I missed the whole title. Like the phrase is that, but the title is Brave Not Perfect. Laura Raether: Yes. Sara Frasca: Sure. Tracy Laskos: Mmm. Laura Raether: Great. Deborah, thank you for sharing all your shit. ⁓ We appreciate it. ⁓ And I'm going to ask ⁓ one last question, because it is 5 here it's Little Friday. Your favorite happy hour mocktail or cocktail of choice? Because that's what I'm doing when I shut this down. Deborah Dixon: Thank you. Tracy Laskos: Yeah. Deborah Dixon: You are just making this go, I love it. Yeah, it's usually a shot of tequila, Don Filano or Fortaleza with a side of orange is my favorite. It is incredible. Or some margarita that has that tequila in it is a go-to. But I really will take anything. I can do wine. I can do a martini. Sara Frasca: Hmm. Laura Raether: Awesome. Well, I... Sara Frasca: Who? Tracy Laskos: Fantastic. Laura Raether: Well, you're West Coast. You got more work left to do. We're down on it over here, Tracy Laskos: That's crazy. Deborah Dixon: Thank you so much for your time and thank you so much for inviting me on your podcast. I felt so honored and so appreciative to get to connect with all of you. Laura Raether: You're welcome.