Latest / Beyond Labels Premium / Episode #65: Should we grant amnesty to everyone involved in the "global health crisis"?

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Episode #65: Should we grant amnesty to everyone involved in the "global health crisis"? · Beyond Labels Premium

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: So the problem here, Cena, is that that the the the financial and uh well you know the the um the power position prestige and profits okay uh are are so strong in in this sphere the the pharmaceutical companies or the you know the the the agriculture chemical companies or whatever the the the the that that is so strong that it it it prejudices what our eyes see you know we say well i'll see it um i'll believe it when i see it actually that's wrong uh you actually you actually see it when you believe it it because our our our uh our screen uh uh that's all screened by you know again power position profits prestige um it it it it screens what what we can see you know the best example I know is like Chernobyl when Chernobyl blew Moscow was calling them saying what do you see you know and and graphite was falling on the yard in front of the control panel at Chernobyl and they said everything's under control nothing's a problem they they they had so much faith in their safety procedures in their backup plans that they could not literally could not psychologically process the fact oh that's that's the graphite core falling on the lawn out there hi everyone welcome to beyond labels with uh your co-host joel salaton the farmer and Dr.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: Cena McCullough the researcher and we're delighted to announce today for the I think for the first time that um next June 23 and 24 will be our third this will be our it's hard to believe Cena that's been uh uh this will be our third time doing the two days of truth summit at uh here at at Polyface Farm and uh we're hoping to fill this up this year uh we'd like to see all of you come out it's it's an unbelievable time of gathering and encouragement and learning and this year's theme is going to kind of center on you know how science got it wrong it's going to it's going to dig into the uh the basic assumptions about disease about um about what we all were thought we knew about science and uh and actually there's um there's a lot of debate about some of these basic uh you know things that people that that we all that we all grew up believing and thinking and so some sometimes the greatest breakthrough is a break with and so as a result of this I think we'll all break with some of the assumptions that we've had that have uh that have hampered us in our ability to stay healthy and live uh truly satisfied lives so June 2324 mark your calendar there will be a lot more coming uh later as we as we formalize our theme and our speakers and all that but uh we wanted to get this on on your radar right away uh now that we have the dates picked and the theme picked so today's topic is about COVID amnesty and there's been quite a bit of discussion about the Atlantic carried a large article about it and so I'm gonna let Cena kind of introduce the topic and then I think we're gonna have some interesting uh interesting chit chat about COVID amnesty.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: Cena?
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: Great thank you Joel okay I love this question because um obviously COVID affected all of us and so I wanted to go ahead and give a little background for anyone who hasn't followed the story.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: And my main question here that I'm gonna pose to Joel is um from a biblical perspective should we actually grant amnesty to everybody?
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: All right so we're gonna get there but just hold on stick with us for this beginning.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: So the Atlantic um published an article by Emily Oster and it's titled Let's declare a pandemic amnesty let's focus on the future and fix the problems we still need to solve.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so if you read this article um she's saying this is a quote from the article treating pandemic choices as a scorecard on which some people racked up more points than others is preventing us from moving forward.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: The people who got it right may want to gloat those who got it wrong may feel defensive and retrench into a position that doesn't accord with the facts um she says all of this gloating and defensiveness continues to gobble up a lot of social energy and to drive the culture wars, especially on the internet.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: All right so she goes on to say that um that some people are still spreading misinformation um so she says some people intend to mislead and made wildly irresponsible claims misinformation was and remains a huge problem but most errors were made by people who were working in earnest for the good of society.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: Okay so that's the gist of the article that was published and now many people have responded to that article um from both sides one of them here is from Zero Hedge and the title of this article is no there will not be any pandemic amnesty nothing is forgotten nothing will be forgiven um so we have we have quite quite the um divide that this article's proposition has actually made and what I thought would be interesting is if Joel let's go ahead and just share some ways in which you know as a recap almost some ways in which this whole COVID situation has personally affected us.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_00: And then you know to kind of recap it and then we can discuss should we forgive these people right and and if the answer is yes how do you do that so do you want to start I can start you can start with some some examples some just quick examples of how this situation has affected you yeah well uh for me for me uh I mean a lot of my life is of course wrapped up in our farm our business uh that sort of thing and uh right off the top in the spring of 2020 we lost roughly three quarters of a million dollars that would be$750,000 a year worth of sales when our restaurants all had to shut down so from a that that was a big hit you know I mean that was uh that's uh whatever uh you know a third of our income suddenly was was uh shut down and um the so you know I I don't want to just talk about money but but you know you gotta have money to live we we had we had employees depending on us for a paycheck you drop you know you drop uh a third of your business and suddenly you know that's a big deal because it starts starts affecting people now we can't pay them now what are we gonna do and so that was probably the single biggest uh effect you know right off the top um the second one was that my you know my travel schedule eliminated I had five uh five uh transcontinent you know uh uh foreign uh speaking tours scheduled all of those immediately canceled um and and everything shut down in the U.S.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: so all of these so all of the the get togethers the fellowshipping the encouragement uh that that farmers were used to coming around together um were suddenly eliminated and I'm certainly not the only you know encourager out there but but there's a lot of encouragement in just getting together with other people and and and being with them and so in the the farming community the isolation uh created a new and as as many farmers I knew had the same thing happen they lost their restaurants but they can't even get together and cry about it you know or or brainstorm what can we do about this and and so there was this this massive uh uh change in how we uh uh did things of course you know personally not uh fortunately our our church fellowship where we go uh didn't shut down for very long they shut down for I don't know what two months that was it and then we said forget this reopen and and we went on with it and uh what was interesting there was the first time we came back uh they split the sanctuary in thirds two thirds for the ones that wanted to wear masks one third for the ones that didn't when we showed up two thirds didn't wear masks and once they had to shift all the chairs around real quick to accommodate uh all the ones that I I think the leadership was surprised at the at the uh um you know our pastor's wife is a nurse okay so you know they were they were thinking the congregation be one way and it ended up being the opposite um uh so you know that was uh that was an issue and then here at the here at the store at the farm store uh you know we we finally we got we got tired of of of um you know here on the farm ourselves we're in this bubble here on the farm and our uh staff and everybody and I mean we didn't if you had dropped in on us you wouldn't have known anything was going on we just went on about our work we were out with the chickens and cows and the chainsaw and you know doing our thing and but we we were constantly getting this this thing in the store um our our delivery driver that goes to these urban drop points she was having to mediate fights among customers one would be mass one would not be mass they show up for their food pickup how dare you you know and so I mean these these ladies were getting in I mean little physical altercations and the driver just about went into you know uh uh uh psychological trauma uh with our customers you know dealing with this with this um um attention and so we finally out on the farm store we finally put a sign up you know masks your your body your healthier choice and of course then a a local the local newspaper picked that up ran a big diatribe and crucified us in the local newspaper well then we lost we lost several you know friends and business colleagues in the local community because now we're a super spreader then of course we had the Weston A price foundation thing in the fall of 2020 when they got canceled in Atlanta and then we were accused of having a super spreader so yeah it's uh it's been a lot been a lot of pushback a lot of tension yeah yes and you am i'm mistaken in this you were once you attacked personally like for blogs that you were oh yeah yeah about it and did you ever receive like death threats or no no no no people people like I thought it wasn't there at one point like people were threatening to come and like shoot your cows or something oh that wasn't that wasn't over covet that wasn't over covet that's because I'm a racist okay yeah that was that that was all going on at the same time so you know we we were we were we were under under pressure from uh numerous fronts I'm just keeping this just strictly to the COVID issue oh okay I mixed the two I thought that was for COVID I forgot that you're a racist so like which by the way in case anyone's listening who's not familiar with that story that was later somewhat retracted right like they that was kind that was obviously just proven that you're not a racist correct well uh I I don't know if you I don't know if you can ever uh actually uh actually you know undo that it it's hard to unring that bell you know so so here we are yeah well okay so yes that sounds like an awful uh couple years for you yeah um okay so I'll share a couple things um some were very similar the isolation obviously um losing friends um you know simply because we wanted to exercise our medical freedom of not being vaccinated or wearing masks um my children lost play dates um for the same reason we lost we were uninvited to um a family kind of like a family reunion that happened toward the end of COVID um everybody who was vaccinated was allowed to come um you know to the family gathering and so but you still had to do a COVID test before you arrive um and we we were not so obviously we were not allowed to come obviously you know I've shared the story in a previous podcast about how the masking affected the development of my my daughter who's now two years old and that was the final straw that motivated us to move um out of Virginia um another one um I have two more two more quick ones so another one was for probably well for like probably a year Donnie and I were very stressed because we didn't know if he was going to lose his job at any moment because they had come down um the the the the higher ups had made it very well known that they were all afraid of COVID and that they were going to place mandates on the on all of the employees and it was constantly a shifting target you know like maybe they'll allow some exceptions maybe they won't allow some exceptions and then um you know then they came out with and and everybody was sent home right and so we were like why do we don't know what's going to happen you know um they finally did come out and say that you needed to upload a vaccine passport even though you weren't they still weren't in the office.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so you know that's a whole long convoluted story but my husband refused to do it you know even just based on principle he was like even if I did go get vaccinated I'm not getting giving them a passport on it you know and but of course he did not get vaccinated.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: So we we stayed in this space of uncertainty and of course he's basically our only um the only member of our family that brings in any you know constant stream of income so so if we lost that we would have no financial income so we stayed in that state of uncertainty for for quite a lot of time it was very stressful not knowing if they were just going to be able to send out an email and bam he would not have a job the next day because it was going that direction for quite some time.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: So he actually started looking for another job and he did change jobs.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: So now he works remotely.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: The one that um affected me the most though was um oh and it's already bringing up tears um was the situation with my mother.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: Because as you know you know to condense this story um my mother had come to live with me after her husband died in about seven or eight months we had reversed all the diseases that she had because she was about to die as well.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: So physically she was completely healthy um with the one exception that we found out she was dying of a broken heart stress induced cardiomyopathy and so what happened was when I finally asked her if she wanted to live she said that she wanted to go be with her husband.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: So we my my husband and I said we will support you with in that decision but my husband was firm in that she could not go through the dying process in our home in front of our children.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: So I found a very very good like assisted living facility for her.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a lot of them that are not good.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: This one was actually a high quality one and we paid the money for it and it was just down the street from my house.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: So we put her there to have nurses with her 24 hours and whatnot and doctors on staff so that she would have whatever she needed and the idea was that I would just keep going to visit her um until the end.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: And almost right after we moved her there COVID happened and she spent those they would not allow me to come in to see her.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: So she spent those last four months already dying of a broken heart and she was alone and she died there alone even though she was just down the street from me.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah so I never got to see her and um we weren't allowed to do a service um so that one actually probably affected me the most right because no one wants your loved ones to die alone.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: Sure yeah well you know Cena we we uh Teresa and I went through that with with her dad uh Teresa's dad same exact same situation and um and and he died uh if you ask our stepmom today what did daddy die of she'll say um he died of loneliness yeah and I mean he he he thought he well yeah uh that at the time when a person needs support the most to withdraw that is it's it's criminal it's just criminal and and that's part of what's driving this no amnesty thing don't you think is is these kinds of stories because a lot of people have these stories I've run into these stories all over the country people have these stories and and uh they they they want justice if not vengeance and vengeance you know that that that that's the human that's the human in us coming out uh we want retribution because that because that's what that's what we feel when we go through something like this yes it because it was inhumane what they did to my mother it was inhumane for them to do that you know like I treat my dogs better than that like you know what I mean like yeah um so it's interesting you say that about people wanting like retribution and whatnot so I talked about this with my husband with Donnie um because because obviously we both went we both share these experiences so I asked him what do you think should we be giving amnesty and so I just I wanted to share what he said so a couple points he said um one thing that thought was interesting so now obviously I'm a scientist and my husband is an engineer PhD in chemical engineering one of the points that my husband brought up was that he is actually angry he's angry toward what he calls the fake scientists the ones that didn't actually prove anything but still tried to force their fake beliefs onto us he says it's anti science and that is anti-science right yet they were saying they pointed the finger at us saying follow the science you are anti-science but what they actually did to come to these conclusions that forced uh behaviors upon us is actually anti-science and he sees it as a giant betrayal that they ruined they quote ruined science by creating this fake science and you know I hadn't actually taken it to that extreme but it's true science has you know science as a scientist I feel safe in saying this science is science has its faults right and you and I discussed this before you can't ever prove anything in science science is not designed to prove it's designed to disprove right and this is one of the reasons why we came up with this theme for our next health summit.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: And it the summit's not just about COVID it's not just about acute illness it's about how it's also about how chronic illness forms and solutions behind it because if you understand the how you can now better understand the solutions.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's about understanding things like urine we think urine is a waste product right and it's not I'll be explaining that at the summit how urine actually has stem cells a healing ability in it and so science yes is flawed but what they've done is that they've seriously wounded science in any in what the science what science actually stands for and what the scientific method actually is they have turned it into a fake science they've turned it into a political arm of their political machine right to try to force us to do things.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so it actually discredits science and it discredits scientists like me.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: Sure sure sure you know uh the thing the thing about science there there are two there are two principles that I think people don't uh don't recognize enough is that science is limited by what we can see that's right and what we can replicate.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: If you can't see it and you can't replicate it, which is why, you know, what why I think all the the the the origins of the universe are silly because nobody was here to see it and you can't replicate it.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: So so so whatever origins in the universe come up, it's not science.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: Because it violates the very two fundamental laws of science is you have to be able to see it and you have to be able to replicate it.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so uh so the problem here Cena is that that the the the financial and uh well you know the the um the power position prestige and profits okay uh are are so strong in in this sphere the the pharmaceutical companies or the you know the the the agriculture chemical companies or whatever the the the the that that is so strong that it it it prejudices what our eyes see you know we say well i'll see it um i'll believe it when i see it actually that's wrong uh you actually you actually see it when you believe it it because our our our uh our screen uh that's all screened by you know again power position profits prestige um it it it it screens what what we can see you know the best example i know is like Chernobyl when Chernobyl blew Moscow was calling them saying what do you see you know and and graphite was falling on the yard in front of the control panel at Chernobyl and they said everything's under control nothing's a problem they they they had so much faith in their safety procedures in their backup plans that they could not literally could not psychologically process the fact oh that's that's the graphite core falling on the lawn out there they uh and and that's how powerful that's how powerful our belief systems are and why I know why you spend so much time dealing with your if you actually believe oh I've got the big C I'm gonna die well you probably will and so our so this this questioning the very foundations of the of the beliefs surrounding where we are that are presented to us as science but actually they're just very strong beliefs they are scient that scientists have put forth uh that that are are prejudiced in many cases um you know it it it changes so so you asked the question um from a biblical perspective what do we we we do do we so um I I'd like I'd like to just kind of pursue that in the in the remaining uh few minutes that we have uh got about 10 minutes left um to to uh point out that forgiveness does not eliminate consequences um uh I I mean a a perfect example is is David David and Bathsheba in in the Bible you know David David sees his beautiful woman bathing and he goes and gets her and gets her pregnant and then when she's pregnant then he goes and calls her husband Uriah the Hittite uh home from battle and uh and and sends him back out to to get him killed so that you know he and and um and you know the forgiveness of God was that that that God eventually gave David and Bathsheba Solomon the the king you know Solomon the wisest man in the world uh who enjoyed you know the zenith of Israel's whole history is during Solomon's reign but that child of that of that pregnancy died and and and God said told David that um that that family family dysfunction and infighting would plague his household the rest of his life and of course it did you know Absalom started a rebellion and then I got hung up in a tree with his hair you know I mean uh the rest of David's kids his family was a was a disaster and so while there was forgiveness the the the consequences still have have to come there and so you know um so that that's that's one element and and and another and another one is that um that that a lot of things happen that God allows in his will but he doesn't will them to happen so so sometimes sometimes christians say well it's okay god's in control you know and we kind of say it flippantly oh it's okay you know God's got this he's in well we know that he's ultimately in control but you know in the in the um lord's prayer um thy kingdom come thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven why would jesus ask for if if if if God is is a is is manipulating us like a bunch of marionettes why does Jesus have to pray thy will be done on earth as it is I'm asking for your will to be done on earth as it is in heaven in heaven God does control i mean micromanage you know he he he but but on earth he doesn't micromanage he can anywhere he can intervene anywhere he wants to but he chooses often not to and so we have evil we have things done that are that are evil that are bad um and and God allows those things to happen but he certainly doesn't he certainly doesn't even I I would even go so far as to say I'm not sure he he doesn't even want them to happen.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_01: He doesn't want them to happen because how could God want sin to happen you know no God doesn't want them to happen but he allows them to happen and and so um and so those are just some some you know some thoughts and and ultimately you know vengeance is vengeance is God's justice is is is up to him uh and and and if we if we live if we live with consuming hatred and vengeance uh for these people the rest of our lives we'll probably get sick too just from having that kind of bad attitude yes and that was that's my point so obviously we were affected greatly personally um by COVID and we're still affected today right and as they were spewing this mis they were spewing misinformation and calling it science they were pointing the finger at us and saying that we were killing people that we were literally killing people right by just standing for our truth.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: So so obviously there's a lot wrapped up like I have never in my life felt like um a state or an area in the United States was going to run me out right like we literally felt like we were getting run out of Virginia at one point you know based on the governor's race and who was going to win and whatnot.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: We were like wow this you know we've never we've never felt that type of um separation from America and from other Americans it was quite astounding.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: So there is a lot to forgive there's a lot of layers to move through in order to walk that path of forgiveness with God and in our family we our litmus test in any situation is what would Jesus do we may not like the answer right right like my husband um when I was like what would Jesus do and he you know in this situation would he forgive and my husband says well I know what I want to do so my husband wants a yeah he goes he wants a um a statue of Fauci built in DC and the statue would just simply say always remember there would be a public ceremony to unveil it while Fauci is still alive so that Fauci would know that that was going to be his legacy.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so it would serve as a punishment to Fauci and a warning to others that they will not get away with it if they try to push us again like force us into a corner again.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah and I assume this Fauci Fauci statue would have little horns thrown out of the head right well I left out the grossest part he said he wants it to be legal for you to pee on the statue.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_01: No I was like all right so that's the whole vengeance right that got vengeance for God right but I thought that was kind of comic but that that's that tells you how deep rooted this anger is and that we are still we are still trying to process and release it so that we can forgive for me um I was actually a little surprised to hear the depth of his anger because you know my husband and particularly as an engineer he's he's pretty monotone like he was pretty he's pretty he's pretty as we we'd say he's pretty chill he is really chill yes he says that I'm like the golden retriever I'm like like always excited and then I'm like oh and I crash you know I'm very excitable um I and explore my emotions freely where he's like yeah I'm fine you know so I was quite surprised but this tells you the magnitude of the experience we've all had so um I have actually for me I have actually already walked through many of the layers of forgiveness and I have let it go and my driving force is one because what would Jesus do?
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: And that's how I try to live my life in every situation I ask myself okay let me put my ego aside and simply ask what would Jesus do?
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: And two because I've already been chronically sick nearly died and fought back from it.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I do not want to go down that road again.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I understand the connection between lack of forgiveness and disease.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: And in fact on the emotional level right when you're looking for the root cause of any disease on the emotional level we say that the root cause of disease is an inability to forgive so whenever there is a sickness you look for where in your life you have not forgiven.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_01: So that's how powerful forgiveness is there's stories published in the medical journals of individuals who have had spontaneous reversals of even terminal stage four cancers simply by a major act of forgiveness, right?
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_01: They changed nothing else on the physical level they did not change their diet they did not try a new drug they simply had a massive act of forgiveness in their life and the the tumors the disease vanished almost instantly so I understand that connection and that's how I try to live my life that's why I do these emotional detoxes on a daily basis.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_01: And this one this one is not like in one day I can do an emotional detox from all the stuff that happened during COVID.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: But I am and I have continued to work on it one level at a time.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_01: And one thing that also helps me through that is by shifting my perception.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: As we talked about even in science even swayed by your beliefs, right?
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: What you believe becomes your reality.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_01: So I have begun shifting my perception over about the last year.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_01: So for instance with the whole situation with Donnie losing his job or you know Donnie leaving his job and the whole uncertainty for like that year if he was going to get fired or whatnot.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: Well that pushed him to find a new job, one that he now loves he loves what he's doing for the first time in his entire career um he is at home now which provides um a unique opportunity for us to experience the family dynamic right before before parents one parent or two parents went off to work every day the parents were with the children all the time and it has dramatically changed our dynamic and our the whole entire energy of our house and we love it.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_01: We have now moved out of Virginia which is something we were looking to do anyway we've moved to northern Georgia and now we've found this great community and we love it here.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: We're also encouraged because we feel like more people have begun to open their eyes to the government control and corruption and um that they may not be as easily controlled anymore right if this happened again right more eyes are opened right um and one thing is the children who are affected especially like teenagers you know preteens that are old enough to have kind of understood what's happening and were forced to you know get the vaccine and wear the mask and social distance and mask and social distance at school and all this stuff um we're starting starting to see some evidence that they may turn out to be libertarian right they may push back on all especially the ones that weren't allowed to have graduation or prom or sports anymore they may actually it there's nothing like a hands-on experience right right so we may see this generation that's being raised up that actually push back on it so those changing my perception helps me to forgive is my point yeah you know the the one uh huge difference between humans and god is uh God says when he forgives he forgets he puts it as far as the east is from the west and he remembers it he says he says I remember it no more the problem with us as humans is we even when we forgive we don't forget that that that's that that's a that's a singular whatever uh uh you know uh trait of ours and so even when we say we forgive there's still that gnawing little but I remember I remember you know and and that's why this is uh this is so hard for us I think those were great uh great responses Sina and and and I I I would just add yes um that there there is a difference between um government response and individual response uh the Bible is clear about that that you know we we if somebody wrongs us we don't take that as personal vengeance we go to the magistrate i mean the whole Levitical Israel you know uh uh uh Jewish uh um jurisdiction system the the cities of refuge and all that was all about letting letting the government and the it was the rule of law it was it was letting the law handle it rather than uh rather than us taking this uh in our own hands and so uh that's a big deal and and I would just simply say yeah living in the moment is is a is a big deal to to finally come to the point where you know what I can't change the past it is what it is but now we have this moment now how can I move people how can I leverage COVID and move people now beyond that so that if there is another one if there's something else happens you know how can we how can we move that uh so so that the response is even uh more dramatic next time than it was the first time it doesn't mean that we that we hate anybody doesn't mean that we seek vengeance on anybody it just means hey everybody living in the context let's let's learn from our past and let's be positive about our response in the future you know those are things that that move us to a better place uh in our in our attitude and our spirit yes and if I might just add one thing you know you had spoken in the beginning about you know forgive but there's consequences to the actions right and I think this is one thing that kind of hangs us up from actually forgiving is we want consequences.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_01: And in this type of situation I mean do you really see that Fauci is going to have consequences like do you really think people are going to be you know just it does it seems like justice won't be served.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_01: So someone might be hung up saying well what how am I gonna how am I even going to move forward and forgive because nobody's gonna be held accountable and that's not fair and we have to remember this you know and so this is how I break it apart.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_01: Forgiveness is different than the consequence okay it's separate the and the whole concept of forgive and forget I separate those two.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_01: Okay it would be lovely if we could just kind of you know from a personal standpoint forget from a historical standpoint we don't want to forget right hence my husband's concept of let's build a statue and say always remember right because we don't want it repeated but here's the thing I separate out forgiveness from all of that because forgiveness is not about the other person right forgiveness is about yourself forgiveness is really about you saying I am no longer willing to carry this toxic burden you can have it back right you are you are loving yourself to the point where you're saying I love myself too much to carry your burden any longer and so energetically you give it back to that person.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's letting go it's letting go and it and so it is releasing that toxic burden from yourself.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't mean you have forgotten right um and and it doesn't mean you don't think there should be justice like clearly people should be held accountable right do I think that's gonna happen no but I'm okay with that because number one we have even if it's just oral history handed down to the generations to explain it right but number two forgiveness is separate from that forgiveness is releasing yourself of the toxic burden.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah that's that's well said well said well this has been a this has been a great uh I think uh a great discussion of a really really tense subject and um thank you for your insight uh Cena and for Donnie's too and and it's uh it's been it's been good to explore this and I hope it's helpful to folks that are that are carrying this this clenched fist carrying this clenched fist around 24 7 clenched fists carrying around 24 7 is not healthy it's it's not good for you and and it doesn't put us in a good place so um thanks for being with us on another uh Beyond Labels podcast and we look forward to seeing you next time