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The Ocean Agency You've Never Heard Of, But Depend On Every Day · How To Protect The Ocean

0:00
What if the most important agencies
0:01
protecting your food, your weather
0:03
forecasts, your safety,
0:05
and the ocean was being cut apart and
0:08
most people still do not
0:10
know what it does? Today,
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we are talking about NOAA, the National
0:15
Oceanographic and
0:16
Atmospheric Administration,
0:17
and why it matters, what is at risk, and
0:20
why people everywhere should care.
0:23
This is the How to Protect the Ocean
0:24
podcast, your weekday news update.
0:27
If you care about staying informed on the
0:29
ocean every weekday,
0:30
hit that follow button
0:31
right now so you don't miss tomorrow's
0:33
story. Today's episode is a
0:35
special interview with Jeff
0:36
Waters from the Ocean Conservancy. Now
0:38
Jeff works at the
0:39
intersection of ocean policy,
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government funding, and public advocacy.
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He helps translate
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what happens in Washington
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into what it actually means for the
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ocean, coastal communities,
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wildlife, and to be honest,
0:53
everyday people. In my interview with
0:55
Jeff, we break down
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what NOAA really does,
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why so many people depend on it without
1:00
even realizing it and
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what recent cuts could mean
1:04
to the administration and why protecting
1:07
public science
1:08
infrastructure matters far beyond the
1:11
coastline. If you have ever checked out
1:13
the weather, eaten
1:14
seafood, cared about marine life,
1:16
or wondered who was watching over the
1:18
oceans, this conversation is
1:20
for you. So let's get into it.
1:22
Here's the interview with Jeff Waters
1:24
from the Ocean Conservancy. Enjoy, and I
1:26
will talk to you after.
1:27
Hey Jeff, welcome to the How to Protect
1:29
the Ocean podcast. Are you
1:30
ready to talk about NOAA?
1:32
Of course, thanks for having me.
1:34
You bet, I'm excited. This is a very
1:36
important interview because I've talked
1:38
about all the cuts that
1:39
have happened to NOAA,
1:40
but I've also talked over the 11 years
1:43
that I've been doing this podcast about
1:44
the benefits that NOAA brings
1:46
to not only the US, but to the world
1:48
really in terms of the research that it
1:50
does, the work that it does,
1:51
the services that it provides for safety
1:54
and so forth. So we're
1:55
going to get into all of that,
1:56
but we're also going to talk about what's
1:58
happening with NOAA since this latest
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presidential administration has gone in
2:03
and made severe cuts to
2:04
many of the programs. I've had,
2:07
you know, full disclosure. I've had some,
2:09
a lot of friends who are
2:10
out of work because of it
2:11
that were doing amazing work. And I feel
2:14
like online and just
2:15
people in general really don't
2:17
have a good grasp of what NOAA does. And
2:20
so what I want this interview to be where
2:23
you and I, we're going to
2:24
talk about the benefits of NOAA.
2:25
We've been talking about the benefits of
2:27
NOAA in these episodes leading into this,
2:29
but also just what it brings, what it is,
2:31
and what people need to understand about
2:33
NOAA that's so important for us, not only
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as like for people of American
2:37
citizens, but for the world and that we
2:39
need to support them more and the
2:40
government needs to support them.
2:41
So we're going to get into all of that,
2:43
but Jeff, before we do, why don't you
2:44
just let us know who
2:45
you are and what you do.
2:47
Well, thanks. So I, in my work life, I'm
2:51
the guy who goes into the depths of the
2:53
government to figure out what the heck is
2:55
actually happening, right?
2:57
So I'm the guy who goes along with my
3:00
team and my colleagues who are fantastic
3:01
here at Ocean Conservancy.
3:04
You know, we go into the budget
3:05
spreadsheets, we go into the
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appropriations bills, the legislation,
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the OMB spending spreadsheets, and we try
3:11
to translate that into what it actually
3:14
means for the ocean,
3:15
what it means for people, what it means
3:16
for communities, what it means for ocean
3:19
wildlife, because at the end of the day,
3:22
what happens in Washington, D.C. matters
3:24
for everyone, including the coast and
3:27
including the oceans.
3:29
And so, but in terms of who I am, in
3:32
terms of my role, I'm the vice president
3:34
of external affairs
3:35
here at Ocean Conservancy.
3:37
So I oversee our government relations
3:39
team, our international government
3:40
relations team, and our Florida program.
3:43
So whether it's the state, federal,
3:44
international level, you know, really
3:47
helping our teams to do the advocacy that
3:49
we need to do on behalf of the ocean.
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I can imagine you and your team must be
3:54
so detail oriented to sift through all
3:57
those line items in the budget and all
3:59
the policies that are going through.
4:01
Like, it's not easy work to go through
4:04
amendments and regulations. And it's not
4:07
exciting reading, let's be
4:09
honest, to many of us, right?
4:11
You're not reading a novel or nonfiction
4:13
novel or whatnot. You're reading like
4:15
some pretty dry stuff, but to get through
4:18
it all and to put it into a kind of like
4:22
a product, I guess, or something that we
4:24
could all understand of what's happening
4:25
and bring it down to try and simplify it
4:29
as much as possible, as complex as a lot
4:31
of these things are.
4:32
I think that's really important. Now,
4:34
you've spent your career at the
4:37
intersection of science and policy.
4:38
But what like what first pulled you into
4:41
ocean policy, especially growing up in
4:43
the Midwest, you grew up in, I believe it
4:44
was Illinois you
4:45
mentioned before we press record.
4:47
What called you to get that coastal envy?
4:50
Because I've had it too. I grew up in
4:52
Ontario. I have the Great Lakes and you
4:55
might have a piece of the Great Lakes.
4:56
Great Lakes. But the ocean call is a
4:58
different call. So what
4:59
brought you that that call?
5:01
I mean, it's funny you say coastal envy
5:02
because that's literally the phrase that
5:04
I use when I explain things to people.
5:07
Yeah, I'm a kid from the Midwest to grow
5:09
up with coast envy. I wish I lived by the
5:11
beach and never had the chance to. We
5:14
would go down to Florida every year as a
5:15
family and do our family vacation. And so
5:18
that was the sliver of the ocean that I
5:21
got to experience every year.
5:23
When I went to the University of
5:26
Wisconsin, Madison, I went there for
5:27
undergrad and for graduate school. And
5:29
for grad school, I went there for
5:31
limnology and marine science. That
5:32
limnology is like basically lakes and
5:35
streams and rivers and wetlands. So I got
5:37
to play around in all these great
5:40
freshwater environments
5:41
in northern Wisconsin.
5:42
And then the marine science part, which
5:45
is where I did all of my research for my
5:47
master's degree. My research focused on
5:50
sea turtle bycatch in the Hawaii long
5:53
line fisheries. So they'll swordfish and
5:55
tuna fisheries. So every winter during
5:59
grad school, I got to go to Hawaii and
6:01
dig into the details of sea turtle
6:05
bycatch issues. But I was hooked once I
6:07
went into grad school. I was hooked on
6:09
ocean issues and knew that that's what I wanted to spend my time.
6:11
I wanted to spend my career doing. So you
6:13
always grew up having that that that
6:15
coastal envy going to Florida. Where did
6:17
you go in Florida? Was it always the same
6:18
place? Yeah, Madira Beach. So come here,
6:21
St Pete. So yeah, yeah, yeah. That's like
6:25
growing up in Toronto. You know, we go
6:27
down there. Of course, he hit the Orlando
6:28
for Disney World. And so for the one
6:30
thing that I worked out of Louisiana and
6:33
one thing I learned is Destin, Florida
6:36
probably has the best beaches. But we
6:38
don't not a lot of people from Canada. I
6:40
hear go there. Oh, that's right.
6:40
I feel like that's more of a southern
6:43
sort of destination. They kind of keep it
6:45
quiet, but it's so beautiful. Probably
6:47
some of the best beaches I've ever seen
6:49
in the US. So so yeah, I just think it's
6:51
hilarious how we always go to the same.
6:53
And I don't know if you actually been
6:55
down there in some of the state parks,
6:57
but some of the coastal state parks where
6:59
there's, you know, these barrier islands,
7:01
Sandy, your islands that are completely
7:03
undeveloped. You know, you're used to
7:05
just seeing condos in these places.
7:07
They're all built up.
7:07
And so to be able to experience that in
7:10
its natural state is really eye opening
7:13
in terms of the beauty of that part of
7:15
Florida. I'm going to tell you as a as a
7:18
Canadian, the National Park System in the
7:21
US is one I envy. I got we have a great
7:24
National Park System here too. But I just
7:26
love it. I think it's a great, great
7:28
program, which obviously is also under
7:32
fire at times. But it seems like a lot of
7:35
a lot of Americans love their their national parks.
7:36
So hopefully that will will will stay
7:39
intact. But you know, it's interesting
7:42
because you you've you know, you
7:44
mentioned that like I think it's funny
7:45
how you chose like Hawaii to go. I don't
7:48
obviously bycatch is important Hawaii as
7:50
well. But I love how you chose Hawaii. I
7:52
think that's a good good for you to do
7:55
that. That that kind of fall in your lap
7:57
with the master supervisor or do you
7:58
actually seek it out being like, no, no,
8:00
I want Hawaii. No, it totally fell. It
8:02
fell on my lap. I wish I could say I was actually smart on my own.
8:05
But no, it was an opportunity that that I
8:09
just couldn't pass up.
8:10
Gotcha. Yeah, it's twist your rubber arm.
8:12
And they say, yeah, you're going to get
8:13
in the winters. You're going to go to
8:14
Hawaii, especially in being in Wisconsin.
8:16
Like it's pretty cold there.
8:19
No, like for people who are hearing your
8:20
name for the first time, because this is
8:21
the first time. Hopefully we'll get we'll
8:22
get you back on down the road to get more
8:25
information on updates and stuff.
8:27
What's happening with Ocean Conservancy?
8:29
But what do they know about your experience that helps you understand sort of how Washington.
8:31
Decisions affect the ocean.
8:36
Yeah, it's a great question. So I, you
8:39
know, after grad school, I had a
8:40
fellowship actually through the Canals
8:42
Sea Grant Fellowship
8:43
program, which is a NOAA program.
8:46
I was basically a fellow and on Capitol
8:49
Hill for a year and then stayed on as a
8:51
full time staffer for several years. And
8:54
it was, you know, it was an eye opening experience in terms of the way government really works.
8:56
How it can feel so inaccessible for
9:02
people, but how it really is more and
9:05
more accessible than you think. And that,
9:07
you know, governance and politics. It is
9:09
not a spectator sport. It feels really
9:12
distant. It feels like it's hard to to
9:15
impact. But at the end of the day, it's the people who show up and the people who make their case.
9:17
Person to person, human to human. It
9:23
really is thousands and thousands of
9:25
small conversations. And, you know, I
9:28
think that's a it's a wonderful thing. It
9:30
can be immensely frustrating because we
9:32
live in a big country with a lot of
9:34
people who have a lot of different
9:35
beliefs that often, you know, can conflict with one another.
9:36
But that human to human process is is
9:42
just fascinating to me. And so to be able
9:45
to do that on behalf of the ocean and on
9:47
behalf of the environment, which I am
9:49
deeply passionate about, it's just an
9:52
honor to be able to do that every day.
9:54
Well, and we appreciate the work you and
9:55
your colleagues do because like you said,
9:57
it's not always easy and you have to get
10:01
to know a lot of people. You have to
10:03
definitely smooth your way around Capitol
10:05
Hill and understand what you're doing.
10:06
It can be a lot of fun. But you have to
10:06
understand how it works and who to speak
10:08
to. And so one of the things that the
10:10
stories that I really like, I did an
10:12
interview in a number of years ago and a
10:15
gentleman that was on would say that he
10:17
brings like a book of stories that he
10:20
gets that he collects from people and he
10:22
brings him and he goes to
10:23
Democrats and Republicans alike.
10:27
conversations with him over the
10:28
relationships that he's built over the
10:29
years with these politicians to have
10:31
conversations be like hey
10:32
Here's what I'm looking to do
10:34
And these are all the people who are
10:35
supporting what we're trying to do and
10:37
they take it and they
10:37
go back and they try
10:38
And do their best but a lot of these
10:40
these politicians are very environmental
10:42
focused whether they're
10:43
Republican or Democrats
10:44
It's just a matter of what's what's being
10:47
what line is being towed at that time and
10:49
hopefully you get people on the right day
10:51
So those relate that relationship
10:53
building must be a big part of of your
10:55
job and of you and
10:56
your team's job, correct?
10:58
Yeah, I mean relationship building and to
11:00
what you just said storytelling, right?
11:03
Yeah, the story is how you open someone's
11:05
mind and help them visualize and
11:07
understand what it is that you're saying
11:09
It's not about putting up charts that
11:11
tell the facts of the world
11:12
It's about telling a story that someone
11:14
can relate to and wrap their heads around
11:16
You know, sometimes people say that, you
11:19
know Capitol Hill runs on
11:20
anecdotes and it's really true
11:21
But I think again, that's a that's a
11:23
reflection of the very human nature of
11:25
the process where you know
11:27
The story is how you reach someone and
11:30
are able to convince them
11:32
It's not always about just you know,
11:34
reciting talking points and
11:35
facts and figures and data
11:37
It's about telling a story
11:38
that someone can understand
11:40
Absolutely. It's going back to I'm not
11:42
sure if you know Randy Olson his don't be
11:44
such a scientist book
11:45
where he talks about
11:45
getting it to the gut of people getting
11:47
to their emotions and
11:49
Working on that instead of just the logic
11:51
of sharing data like we do as scientists.
11:54
I think it's it's really important
11:56
Yeah, now going back to your your
11:58
master's degree with
11:59
the sea turtle and bycatch
12:02
project or thesis
12:04
Did working with these
12:06
types of marine animals?
12:07
Did that like that change how you thought
12:10
about like policy and conservation how
12:12
important it could be?
12:14
When when we're looking at you know
12:16
bycatch and the regulations that go
12:17
around bycatch
12:18
especially around sea turtles
12:19
I mean it was actually the working with
12:21
the people part that change
12:22
Oh interesting and really shaped the way
12:24
I kind of view the world because you know
12:27
The the sea turtle
12:28
bycatch issue down there
12:29
It was something that was you know, kind
12:31
of popping in the
12:32
late 90s and early 2000s
12:34
Yeah, it's a big problem for the fleet.
12:35
There were a bunch of lawsuits. There
12:37
were all sorts of administrative actions
12:39
You know trying to find a
12:41
solution to the bycatch issue
12:43
You know so that the fleets could
12:45
continue to fish and the turtles can
12:47
continue to survive and
12:49
it was a it was a real
12:51
lesson in the importance of conflict
12:54
In that, you know conflict drives
12:57
creativity and solutions
12:59
as painful as it can be
13:01
But also the the potential for conflict
13:04
to get out of hand and sometimes if you
13:05
get mired in a fight
13:07
Where it's not just
13:08
about winning on your side
13:11
It's about making
13:11
sure the other side loses
13:14
That can be a dangerous place and you can
13:16
really lose sight of your your original
13:18
goals and intent and
13:20
what you're trying to do
13:21
on behalf of the environment and on
13:23
behalf of the world and so it taught me a
13:25
lot about how conflicts can be a very
13:28
constructive and
13:30
innovative driven kind of force in our
13:33
world but can also kind of get out of
13:35
hand and can become very
13:38
You know destructive if you don't kind of
13:42
Go into it with a lot
13:43
of thoughtful awareness
13:45
Yeah, absolutely
13:46
Absolutely
13:47
and you know
13:47
there's a lot of stuff that goes on like
13:49
with these regulations that we look at
13:51
these policies that we try and and
13:53
Implement and and some have like we just
13:56
in the US just celebrated
13:57
I believe it's 50 years of the
13:59
Magnuson-Stevenson's Act
14:00
Which is probably one of the most
14:01
successful fisheries acts
14:02
in in the world at this point
14:04
Bringing back a lot of fisheries that
14:06
were in trouble in the 1970s, which was
14:08
brought in by Republicans
14:10
I like to remind people in the 70s with a
14:12
lot of those regulations the Marine Mail
14:14
Protection Act and so forth
14:15
And so we saw like the people were very
14:19
Worried about the
14:20
environment at that point
14:21
Especially around fisheries that were
14:22
declining and you know using those
14:24
policies to bring them back
14:25
But not only just putting the
14:27
implementation and having you know
14:29
advocates like yourself and the ocean
14:31
Conservancy and and other
14:33
you know ocean ocean focused and or or
14:37
Big NGOs that look at these types of work
14:39
and even small NGOs that make sure that
14:41
the government is looking after this
14:43
But the government itself, you know
14:45
Evaluates how these regulations are doing
14:47
and you know stays up to date on on
14:49
fisheries and stock assessments and and
14:51
so looking at marine
14:52
Mammals are they being harassed? Are they
14:54
not making sure those
14:55
regulations are put in place?
14:56
It's a very important aspect and one of
14:58
those bodies that does
15:00
that within within the
15:02
Within the US government is Noah the
15:04
National Oceanographic and
15:06
Atmospheric Administration
15:07
Now it's a mouthful to say and a lot of
15:09
times I mess it up and probably I'm happy
15:11
to say that I didn't mess
15:12
That one up. We'll call it Noah from now
15:14
on but Noah is a huge organization
15:17
It's a huge department that sits within
15:20
the US government and being Canadian
15:22
I don't know exactly how it sits. I know
15:24
it's part of the
15:24
Department of Interior, but
15:26
Actually the Department of Commerce
15:28
commerce. That's right.
15:29
There you go. Yeah, sorry
15:31
So it's a very good example
15:33
Exactly. So can you Jeff?
15:34
Can you just talk about you know, what
15:36
Noah is where it sits
15:37
within that hierarchy?
15:38
And and how important it is for like for
15:42
what Noah does and we'll get into
15:44
obviously what it does
15:45
But just how important it is. Yeah, I
15:47
mean at the highest level
15:48
I think of Noah as the eyes and ears of
15:51
our ocean and our atmosphere
15:53
It all boils down to that whether it's
15:55
weather forecasts whether it's you know
15:58
Trying to manage our fisheries
15:59
sustainably so that the
16:01
seafood that lands on your plate
16:02
When it's wild caught in
16:04
the US is is sustainable
16:06
Whether it is ocean monitoring marine
16:09
sanctuaries like the eyes and the ears of
16:12
the ocean and the atmosphere
16:13
And and the planet as a whole and so, you
16:16
know, it does a lot and it's hard to
16:19
Articulate all of the specific details of
16:21
what you're done. So much. Yeah, but at
16:24
the highest level it's our
16:25
eyes and ears in the world
16:27
And so you said it sits within
16:30
Department of Commerce how and and why is
16:33
it in the Department of Commerce? That's
16:34
what I would love to know
16:35
Yeah, so it was originally created as
16:37
part of an executive order by President
16:40
Nixon under the Nixon administration
16:42
There's a long winding history about you
16:45
know, where the fisheries
16:45
service was and you know
16:48
And is that part of commerce versus an
16:50
interior there? You've also got you know,
16:53
the various histories of
16:55
you know, the the
16:56
predecessors of Noah in terms of you know
17:00
Surveys and ocean
17:01
surveys and that sort of stuff
17:02
And so, you know
17:03
I can't speak to exactly why Nixon chose
17:05
to put it in commerce the
17:07
way he did other than that
17:08
There's a long and winding history behind
17:11
that it has a lot to do with bureaucracy
17:14
and the way bureaucracy evolves
17:16
And it's constantly something that people
17:18
are questioning, you know
17:19
Does it belong in commerce? Should it is
17:22
it a better fit if it was in interiors?
17:24
Should some of the functions move over to
17:25
over to interiors? So that's a that's a
17:28
live discussion under both
17:29
Democratic and Republican
17:31
Administration, so it's a it's a good
17:33
question and one that
17:34
people keep asking for sure
17:37
Well, yeah, cuz it's such a you know
17:38
people when I think it's it's interesting
17:40
because there's definitely
17:41
a commerce side to the ocean
17:43
The ocean has a lot of ecosystem services
17:45
including fisheries and so forth that
17:46
brings in a lot of money
17:47
Especially in in the past when you had
17:49
whaling and everything like that
17:51
Obviously that's that's done now
17:52
But it I think for now a lot of people
17:55
when they think of ocean and atmosphere
17:56
they think of protection
17:57
and conservation less about
17:59
money bring being brought in and commerce
18:02
and revenue and so forth so I can
18:04
understand where that where
18:05
that comes from and where that
18:06
That is and of course, you
18:08
know with with executive orders
18:09
You just never know what's gonna happen
18:10
and what the thought
18:11
process was back in the 1970s
18:14
especially with the Nixon
18:15
era and and and so forth and
18:17
But I think it's I think it's really I
18:19
think it's really interesting
18:22
But you know, it's it's it's also
18:24
interesting to look at just Noah in
18:27
general, you know, cuz like a
18:31
lot of people that they they they haven't
18:33
really heard of Noah
18:35
Yeah, I'm sure even in the US like
18:37
there's like, you know,
18:38
all is as big as they are
18:39
They probably haven't heard of it and
18:40
maybe really don't know what it does
18:42
You kind of talked about some of them in
18:44
this and like and you
18:45
talked about in the simple form
18:46
But why should people care about having
18:49
Noah around because I
18:51
mean it's it right now
18:53
You can talk a little
18:54
bit about this, you know
18:55
Noah a lot of the programs with a Noah
18:57
are in question a lot of the budgets have
18:59
been slashed some of the Noah
19:01
Departments within
19:02
Noah have been taken out
19:04
So like why should people everyday
19:06
Americans even know or just people around
19:09
the world care that Noah exists today
19:11
Yeah
19:12
I mean Noah is like the silent force in
19:15
your life that you don't even know is
19:16
there until it's gone
19:17
or until it's in trouble
19:19
Like literally every single American uses
19:22
and depends on Noah services
19:24
Every single day without even knowing it
19:26
because a lot of the
19:27
times when you interact with
19:29
You know Noah's dad our Noah services.
19:32
You don't see a Noah logo
19:34
So you don't know that there's this
19:36
agency behind it whether
19:37
it's the seafood on your plate
19:39
Whether it's your you know, your weather
19:42
forecast on the local news. It's your
19:44
local news station's logo
19:45
That's on that not necessarily Noah and
19:47
that national weather service
19:49
But I'll give you like one great little
19:51
example of like a way that
19:53
an example of when Noah is
19:55
Important in a way that you probably
19:56
haven't even thought of so a
19:58
number of years ago, you know
20:01
Our house where we lived was on this the
20:04
short little street the street
20:06
You know, it was a hilly street and there
20:09
were all sorts of flooding issues with
20:10
our neighbors at the bottom of the street
20:13
The street, you know didn't have
20:15
Kind of any sewer
20:16
stormwater drainage system
20:18
So it just kind of flowed down the street
20:20
the county for years as
20:21
this was a county road
20:23
The county for years knew that this was a
20:25
problem and they you know over many years
20:27
decided that they needed to put in
20:29
a stormwater drainage system and so they
20:31
dug up our street and I I don't know if
20:33
you've ever lived on a street when it's
20:35
Being completely dug up. Oh, man. It is
20:38
such a mess. It's such a pain
20:40
well, and my heart broke the
20:42
day they had to come in and like
20:44
Tear down like half the trees on the
20:46
street because they were
20:47
like too close to the street
20:49
Is this street that's been around for you
20:51
know years and years? Yeah, so they you
20:53
know, they tore down the trees
20:55
They dug up the street. They dug up the
20:57
sidewalks and everything and they you
21:00
know put in this brand new
21:01
You know stormwater drainage system,
21:04
which is wonderful fix the flooding
21:05
problems and everything
21:06
brand new street. It's beautiful
21:09
the thing that most people don't know is
21:11
that when the engineers from the county
21:12
and the department of transportation
21:14
Make all of the design choices and then
21:17
engineering choices for all the water
21:19
flow for the stamp stormwater drains
21:21
Literally the pipes underneath your feet
21:23
when you're taking a walk all of those
21:26
You know decisions are made based on rain
21:30
tables and precipitation
21:32
Tables that are all fed by the weather
21:36
and climate labs at NOAA
21:38
Like it is NOAA data and NOAA predictions
21:41
about it's not just about what is the
21:43
rain gonna be like today?
21:44
It's one of the risk windows in terms of
21:46
the biggest precipitation
21:48
events that you can anticipate
21:50
you know 50 years from now because
21:53
Goodness, you don't want to have to do
21:55
this every 20 years in
21:56
terms of digging up my street
21:57
Right you want those assets to last for
22:01
decades and decades?
22:02
And so it's at times it's literally
22:04
things like the engineering decisions for
22:06
the pipes underneath your feet
22:08
To make sure that your street doesn't
22:10
flood NOAA data are there and
22:12
it's these kind of like unseen
22:15
Unknown kind of ways that this agency,
22:17
you know silently, you know
22:20
Helps inform the life in our communities
22:22
around us that I think many of us don't
22:24
appreciate many of us take for granted
22:26
And frankly the government should just do
22:29
this stuff, right? We
22:30
shouldn't have to take for granted
22:31
You know, we should be able to take it
22:33
for granted that the plane just works.
22:35
Yeah communities. So yeah
22:38
Yeah, no, absolutely
22:39
I mean, that's you're right
22:40
We do take it for granted because we're
22:42
just like this is what the
22:42
government is what we pay
22:43
The government to do is to make sure that
22:45
we're safe and that the
22:46
infrastructure is there
22:47
I think it's interesting when you know,
22:49
you hear Noah you think atmosphere ocean
22:52
you don't think about rain tables
22:54
You don't you know, you don't think about
22:55
how water flows in and around your area
22:58
Maybe if you're along the coast, but you
23:00
don't think about it in the interior
23:01
And I think that is
23:02
something that you know needs to be
23:05
You know
23:07
Reiterated every once in a while to
23:08
really understand, you
23:09
know what what they do
23:12
So that's that's good to know. So now
23:13
like with that said, you know, if Noah
23:15
disappeared tomorrow
23:17
What would be the first things that
23:18
people would notice
23:20
missing in their daily lives?
23:23
I mean other than the rain tables, you
23:24
know, it would probably be the food on
23:26
their plate and their
23:27
weather forecasts, right?
23:29
Mm-hmm. And you know the weather
23:30
forecasts in particular
23:31
It's not just about the forecaster in the
23:34
National Weather Service
23:35
Office that like yes the call and issues
23:38
the forecast. It's that entire
23:40
Pipeline of data and information and
23:43
information processing
23:44
that leads to that moment
23:47
And let me give you a great example
23:49
because people often are like, all right
23:51
Why should someone in Kansas care about
23:53
ocean observing systems, right? Because
23:55
ocean Conservancy I
23:57
care about the ocean stuff
23:59
well tornado outbreaks in Kansas and
24:01
storms and droughts in
24:02
Kansas are all driven by
24:05
Precipitation that flows up through
24:07
basically a you know, a small
24:10
You know, it's like a mini jet stream
24:13
about a mile up that carries moisture
24:15
from the Gulf of Mexico
24:16
To the Great Plains in Kansas
24:19
so if you don't understand what's
24:21
happening in the Gulf of Mexico and if
24:23
you don't understand the temperatures and
24:25
the moisture that flows from the
24:26
Gulf of Mexico over to Kansas
24:28
You can't do a good job predicting
24:31
tornadoes so that you can
24:32
give a family an extra 10 minutes
24:35
To go to their basement and and get out
24:38
of harm's way and that could be like a
24:39
life or death situation
24:41
Absolutely. It is day in and day out and
24:43
it's not just tornadoes or
24:45
storms. It's also, you know
24:47
Drought events can be just
24:48
as devastating as as you know
24:51
Major storms and tornadoes and drought
24:54
events too. It's about what happens in
24:56
the Pacific Ocean, you know
24:57
We hear people talking
24:58
about the El Nino La Nina cycle
25:00
If you don't understand what's going on
25:03
with El Nino and La Nina in the ocean
25:05
You can't predict what's gonna happen
25:07
with drought and severe
25:09
weather anywhere in the country
25:11
Yeah, especially coastal zones, but also
25:13
in places like Oklahoma, Kansas or
25:16
Illinois or Wisconsin
25:17
Yeah, and all the way
25:18
up to Canada as well
25:19
Yeah
25:19
When there I think I think I heard
25:21
something we're going into a super El
25:23
Nino coming out of an El Nino like
25:25
We don't know this unless we have that
25:27
data and we have those predictive models
25:29
that come out of of Noah
25:32
What like, you know, there's a lot of
25:34
stuff that that Noah does
25:36
that we maybe take for granted
25:38
Like, you know the weather for instance,
25:40
you know, people will take
25:40
for granted. Why do you think?
25:43
when when cuts were announced
25:46
There are a lot of people being like
25:47
yeah, these are a lot.
25:48
There's a lot of wasteful
25:49
Programs at Noah like they need to be cut
25:53
and it seemed like you know, some of
25:54
those programs were like, oh no
25:56
We actually really you know, we need this
25:58
Why are people so quick to and with your
26:01
experience, you know in
26:02
in government affairs?
26:04
So why are people so quick to sort of
26:06
dismiss some of these programs right off
26:08
the bat when that people
26:09
are saying they're gonna get
26:10
Cut I think it's because they've never
26:12
heard of the programs and they don't know
26:13
what they do, right?
26:15
So like, you know people will rush to to
26:18
come to the aid of the National Weather
26:20
Service and their local, you know
26:22
Forecast office and their local
26:24
meteorologists in charge because they've
26:26
heard of that and they understand that
26:28
and they know what that is
26:29
But other parts of Noah like a you know
26:31
cooperative institutes and
26:33
research labs and you know
26:35
Severe weather storm centers all that
26:37
sort of stuff. It's you
26:39
know, people haven't heard of it
26:40
They kind of assume that like oh, it can
26:42
that really be that
26:43
important if I've never heard of it
26:45
And yet those very things are the things
26:47
that provide the data
26:48
and process the models
26:49
Uh that there's you know
26:51
The forecasters actually need to do their
26:53
job or you know that all of us need to to
26:57
understand and improve, you know
26:59
forecasts for hurricanes a
27:01
Perfect example is when you look at
27:03
hurricane Katrina compared to today
27:06
We have dramatically improved our
27:08
forecasting ability for hurricanes
27:11
If you look at all of the specific labs
27:14
and institutes and parts of Noah
27:17
That actually did the work to improve
27:19
those forecasts chances are you haven't
27:22
heard of most of those entities
27:24
You've never heard of them. It doesn't
27:25
mean that they're not important
27:27
And so a lot of what we need to do right
27:29
now when these kind of cuts are being
27:32
proposed is to tell that story
27:34
Right. We've got to
27:35
make that stuff accessible
27:36
So people understand what these different
27:38
parts of Noah do why they're important
27:40
how they're linked and interrelated
27:43
And how if you you know chop off one part
27:45
of Noah that damage
27:46
just doesn't stay there
27:48
It affects all sorts of you know ripple
27:50
impacts across the agency
27:52
services that people depend on
27:54
Indeed indeed. Let's talk about the
27:56
overall ocean conservation impact of
27:59
Noah. How does Noah
28:00
directly keep the ocean healthy?
28:02
Yeah, so Noah has a whole bunch of
28:04
management responsibilities
28:06
So under the endangered species act it
28:08
has all sorts of
28:10
responsibilities to you know
28:11
Analyze when people want to do things
28:13
that are going to
28:13
potentially endanger a species
28:15
Um, they're responsible for recovery
28:17
plans. They're responsible for protected
28:20
areas like natural marine
28:21
sanctuaries the management
28:23
And stewardship of those areas one of the
28:25
biggest impacts is
28:26
through fisheries management
28:28
trying to make sure that we do fisheries
28:29
management in a way that is sustainable
28:32
and that doesn't you know,
28:34
You know have all sorts of the you know,
28:36
bycatch issues and habitat destruction
28:39
Uh, so noah plays a direct
28:41
role in a lot of the activities
28:44
That you know directly harm
28:46
Ecosystems and marine environments and
28:48
marine wildlife. Noah is the steward for
28:51
those resources. Noah is responsible
28:53
under the law for managing those
28:55
resources for making those
28:57
decisions and making those calls
28:59
It doesn't mean that noah always does
29:00
what I wish they would do
29:02
But they are the agency
29:03
that has the responsibility
29:05
To help us make sure that we've got you
29:07
know thriving wildlife in the ocean and
29:09
that we're taking care of habitats
29:11
And that we're managing our fisheries
29:13
sustainably for the future
29:15
Yeah, and I can just I I know I don't
29:17
know if you know the number off hand
29:19
How many people generally work at at noah
29:21
with all their departments if you if you
29:23
look at it from an overall perspective
29:24
Oh, I should know this but I don't okay.
29:26
It's a few thousand. Yeah, it's several
29:28
thousand people several thousand
29:29
Yeah, so it's not just like a small
29:31
department that you know
29:32
You have five or six people in each
29:34
office as you go around
29:35
it's spread around the country
29:37
All around the country not just along the
29:38
coastline especially, you know, obviously
29:40
headquartered in washington d.c
29:42
like this is
29:43
It's it's got its hands in every pretty
29:45
much everything around the
29:46
ocean and and and atmosphere
29:49
So I just wanted people to to know that
29:51
there's several thousands because like we
29:53
know so many people who
29:55
Are in it probably between just the the
29:57
two of us. It's it's uh,
29:58
it's an important thing
30:00
Um now, yeah, we so we talk about its
30:03
involvement in in you know, endangered
30:05
species protecting
30:06
endangered species and so forth
30:07
One thing he didn't mention is it's also
30:09
involved in ocean exploration, you know,
30:11
like the deep sea and things like that
30:13
So why is that? Can you just I know you
30:14
and I know why it's important
30:15
But can you just talk a little bit about
30:17
why it's important for noah to explore?
30:19
Different parts of the ocean to get a
30:21
better understanding
30:22
of it. Yeah, I mean noah
30:25
Is is basically the only agency that we
30:28
have that can explore
30:31
the vast majority of the planet that
30:33
we've never seen or explored and have
30:35
very little understanding of
30:37
And so, you know, it's almost hard to put
30:40
into words how important that is
30:43
Um, other than that they are on the
30:44
forefront of science
30:46
It is not very often that you have true
30:49
exploration on the planet right now and
30:52
the ocean is where that exploration
30:54
is happening
30:55
uh
30:56
Because without that we just we're going
30:58
to continue to live in ignorance about
31:00
the nature of our planet
31:01
And you know 70 of the globe is going to
31:05
just go unseen unknown and unexplored
31:09
Yeah, yeah, it's it's uh
31:11
I think one of the you know, we we just
31:13
had artemis to go into
31:14
space and that was wonderful
31:17
Imagine having a live feed of people
31:19
going out into the ocean and being able
31:20
to see what's down the ocean and how
31:22
similar it is to work
31:23
In in such difficult environments, you
31:26
know, it's not an easy thing, you know,
31:28
and I know we don't do as many
31:30
You know people man like people subs
31:33
going down a lot of
31:34
remotely operated vehicles
31:35
But the amount of money and and the the
31:37
challenges that we're faced to go down
31:39
there sometimes rivals space
31:41
So I think it's important
31:42
that that we that we get that
31:44
Uh involved like that that involved in
31:47
exploration now, you know talks about
31:49
this overall ocean conservation impact
31:51
It's very important. You
31:52
know, no is involved in a lot
31:54
What happens to ocean science and
31:56
conservation efforts from noah?
31:59
When you know the funding that we're
32:01
seeing or just in
32:02
general becomes unstable
32:04
year to year
32:05
Yeah So I think the first impact that we saw
32:08
right off the bat at the
32:10
beginning of this administration
32:11
Is the people impact in terms of the
32:14
intellectual kind of firepower that the
32:17
federal government has through
32:19
incredibly
32:21
experienced and seasoned
32:23
Scientists and engineers and and
32:25
world-renowned experts
32:27
Uh when you start trying
32:29
to undermine that workforce
32:31
And that that brain that we have at our
32:35
fingertips as taxpayers
32:37
um
32:38
That's hard to get back
32:39
It's it's really hard to get back and
32:42
there's a human toll
32:43
Uh as well in terms of the you know
32:46
taking some of our best and brightest,
32:47
uh, you know scientists
32:49
on ocean and
32:50
atmospheric science and you know
32:53
Uh basically making it so they don't want
32:56
to work for the people anymore
32:58
um
33:00
And I think that's that's just a huge
33:02
loss, uh for our country and it's it's
33:04
hard to rebuild that and
33:06
it's expensive to rebuild that
33:07
It's extremely
33:09
extremely short-sighted, uh in terms of
33:11
the the damage that that does
33:14
in the long run
33:15
But I think what people don't realize too
33:17
because we like in canada
33:19
We saw these cuts happen during the
33:20
harper administration
33:22
Uh conservative government in the early
33:24
2000 or mid 2000s and
33:26
early 2012 no teens, I guess
33:29
um
33:29
And what was happening is is what we saw
33:31
and we're probably going to see the same
33:33
thing as these cuts happen is
33:34
You get a lot of people who have been at
33:36
the agencies for a very long time
33:39
They're towards the end of their careers
33:40
and they kind of get
33:41
pushed out a little early
33:43
Uh to allow for something yet, but the
33:44
problem is is that knowledge transfer
33:46
with the experience that they have
33:48
Doesn't necessarily get transferred
33:50
because it's such an abrupt change and
33:52
they're and they're
33:53
obvious like just gone
33:54
Uh, and and they've retired but then also
33:57
you get if there's a lot of
33:58
cuts you get that loss of that
34:01
You know sort of mid-career group of
34:03
people who have accrued all this
34:05
information have
34:06
learned from their mentors
34:08
Over those years and they lose and they
34:10
lose that and they get jobs other places
34:12
But they you lose again that that that
34:14
knowledge and then the passing off of
34:16
that knowledge for these programs that
34:17
have gone on for decades
34:19
uh, and not only are you getting gaps in
34:21
the in the data from those
34:23
years where the funding is is
34:26
unstable
34:27
But you're also losing the people who
34:29
worked in those and and so the efficiency
34:31
of that program can't
34:32
get better as as we go
34:33
Along the knowledge in there that the
34:35
amount of questions that are being asked
34:37
and being pushed so that we
34:38
can find out more about how
34:39
To stabilize fisheries and and make sure
34:42
things are doing are going well with with
34:43
endangered species and so forth
34:45
It just gets all disrupted and then to
34:47
rebuild it takes a lot longer than I
34:50
think people realize
34:51
It's not just you can lay off these
34:52
people you can disrupt their lives
34:54
They have to go get other jobs and
34:56
they're going to be in
34:56
those jobs for a long time
34:58
Hopefully, but they're not it's not as if
35:00
they're going to just
35:00
come back to the government
35:02
As quickly as as we all think and that
35:04
knowledge kind of it takes years and
35:05
years to put that into place
35:08
Am I off on that or or is that no, you
35:10
know, that's what's the concern as well?
35:11
Yeah, you're totally right. I think part
35:13
of what you're getting at is that it's
35:14
not just personnel. It's
35:17
institutional capacity, right? Yeah
35:19
Yeah, you know even the people who are
35:21
still there who are you know within noah?
35:24
They're having to deal with these, you
35:25
know potential budget
35:26
cuts and what does that mean?
35:28
And you know the people that so great
35:30
example the office of oceanic and
35:32
atmospheric research
35:33
Which is the line office that does all of
35:35
the research for ocean stuff for
35:38
atmospheric stuff for climate stuff
35:40
everything
35:42
That line office the administration is
35:44
proposed zeroing the whole thing out just
35:47
completely getting rid of it
35:49
So if you are a scientist
35:51
At oar and you have managerial
35:54
responsibility. Are you planning on
35:56
closing up shop or do you
35:57
wait and see what congress does?
36:00
I mean, there's a huge amount of over,
36:01
you know uncertainty that overhangs all
36:04
of these programs and all of these kind
36:06
of capacities within
36:07
uh within noah that are critically
36:09
important right? I mean these these
36:12
climate labs are are essential for doing
36:14
things like getting precipitation
36:16
uh, you know
36:18
Predictions so that we all know how to
36:20
you know build our pipes in our streets
36:23
And the question is
36:24
where do you go from there?
36:26
And I think a lot of people are trying to
36:28
kind of just get
36:29
through it and and figure out
36:31
Um, you know how to provide services the
36:34
best they can and the best they know how
36:36
but it's a volatile time
36:38
And I think it's it's a shame when when
36:40
some of our best and brightest people
36:43
Are having to spend
36:44
their energy and their time?
36:47
figuring out how to deal
36:48
with the political kind of
36:50
chaotic system that they're living in um
36:53
as opposed to focusing on uh,
36:56
their their you know, their brain power
36:58
and focusing that on on solving kind of
37:01
the the biggest mysteries and and
37:03
You know coming up
37:04
with solutions for society
37:06
Absolutely
37:08
I want to kind of switch a little bit, uh
37:10
to highlight some another important
37:11
aspect of of noah and that is seafood
37:14
Like just fisheries
37:15
food and jobs in general
37:17
Um, a lot of people don't connect noah
37:19
with seafood prices, which I didn't
37:22
initially went until until I found out
37:24
So how does noah funding affect what
37:27
people pay at the
37:28
grocery store at a restaurant?
37:30
Yeah, so
37:31
Noah's responsibility is to try to make
37:33
sure that in the long run we have
37:35
fisheries that are sustainable that can
37:37
be sustainably harvested
37:39
For everyone and so what that means is
37:42
that they're ideally under
37:43
the magnus and stevens act
37:45
Ideally, there is a kind of a steadiness
37:47
and a stability to our seafood economy
37:50
Where you know, you don't have these
37:52
huge, you know gluts where fisheries, you
37:55
know fleets go out and
37:56
kind of devastate the fishery
37:58
And then it's gone
38:00
Yeah, instead you it's about sustainable
38:02
yield. It's about trying to make sure
38:04
that our sustainable
38:05
uh, you know our seafood economy is
38:08
sustainable and predictable and so that
38:10
that results in you know
38:12
seafood supplies that are
38:14
you know fairly steady but always with an
38:17
eye towards conservation
38:18
and always with an eye towards
38:20
Making sure that the
38:21
stocks are there in the future
38:23
Now that's a tough job, right? It's it's
38:25
not easy to do that and do it well
38:28
And you know the agency makes mistakes at
38:30
times and fisheries sometimes, you know
38:32
overshoot and overfish
38:34
stocks that they're fishing
38:36
But at least overall in the in the system
38:39
as a whole the idea is that we need
38:41
sustainable wild caught fisheries
38:44
That we can all access because when I go
38:46
to the grocery store and
38:47
when I look in the seafood case
38:49
If it's caught in the united
38:51
states as a wild caught fishery
38:53
I want to have a confidence that the us
38:56
government is making sure that that is
38:58
happening sustainably, right?
39:00
I don't want to have to
39:02
uh go and and you know have a phd and
39:05
fishery science to understand which fish
39:06
are sustainable and which are not
39:08
We should have an expectation to be able
39:10
to know that what we're eating
39:13
we can eat
39:14
safely and that it is not going to be at
39:17
the detriment of future generations
39:21
Now if cuts happen, yeah to noah and in
39:24
this and their seafood, you know programs
39:28
Uh, that stock assessment and and you
39:30
know the economy the
39:31
economics around it as well
39:33
Uh, how could coastal communities and
39:35
fishing jobs be affected? Yeah
39:38
it's a great question and the
39:40
the
39:41
one of the things that
39:43
The agency is already toying with as an
39:45
idea is that we're just going to take
39:47
some stocks out of management
39:49
We're just we're just going to stop
39:50
managing them at least some of them
39:53
and
39:54
What does that mean? Okay what that
39:56
means? It's almost as if you're driving a
39:58
car down the highway
39:59
Yeah, and you're like, all right. This
40:02
highway is kind of straight
40:03
I feel kind of confident but like it
40:06
takes a lot of energy
40:06
to keep my eyes open
40:08
So i'm just going to put a blindfold on
40:10
and we'll hope for the best right?
40:13
And so hopefully we're
40:14
still going straight. Yes
40:16
So you may not
40:17
experience tragedy right away
40:19
But sooner or later you're
40:21
going to end up in a car wreck
40:23
And your chances of being in a car wreck
40:25
have gone way up by
40:26
putting on a blindfold
40:28
And that's basically what we're saying
40:29
we're we're going to choose to do is, you
40:32
know, if we say, uh, it's a
40:33
self-fulfilling prophecy, right?
40:34
Uh, we can't afford because we have
40:37
budget cuts. We can't
40:38
afford to manage these stocks
40:39
So we're just gonna stop managing a bunch
40:42
of them, right? That's just saying we're
40:43
not going to be the eyes and ears
40:45
We're not going to look at it. We're not
40:46
going to try to manage
40:47
it. We're going to give up
40:48
We're going to put on the blindfold and
40:50
then we'll wait for disaster to strike
40:52
and mark you it will
40:54
happen. Yeah sooner or later
40:56
Yeah, and we talk a lot about you know
40:58
with weather and safety and communities
41:00
and so forth already
41:02
um, you know, but some people are like
41:03
with these cuts a lot of people are like
41:05
and I guess this is a very
41:07
I'm gonna say like conservative way of
41:08
thinking like in terms
41:09
of conservative politics
41:10
But some argue that you know private
41:12
companies could replace, you know
41:14
government services, right? Especially
41:16
like science services
41:18
um
41:19
Potentially like weather stations and and
41:21
so forth. Where does
41:23
that argument fall short?
41:24
Yeah, because it because it like it
41:26
doesn't that doesn't seem like that's a
41:28
good idea in the long run
41:30
So where does that argument fall short?
41:32
Yeah, so I think
41:34
The the weather service is actually a
41:35
great example of this and it's a great
41:37
example because much of
41:39
what the weather service does
41:41
Is already a public private partnership
41:43
Right in the sense that a lot of the
41:45
weather that you get the delivery of it
41:47
is often from the private sector
41:49
It's from businesses. It's from the
41:51
weather channel. It's from your local
41:53
Weather station it's from your you know,
41:55
whatever app you use on your phone
41:58
um
41:59
But in order for you to get that forecast
42:01
It's kind of like we need to treat
42:03
weather or think about weather the way we
42:05
think about the post office
42:07
Right the post office basically
42:09
guarantees that anyone
42:11
anywhere in the country
42:13
can send and get mail
42:15
That is incredibly empowering for
42:17
everyone universally across the country
42:20
And if you take that universality away if
42:23
you say, you know what?
42:24
We're just gonna you know, we'll collect
42:26
have you we'll let
42:27
the private sector do it
42:28
We'll let the private sector decide when
42:30
and where to collect weather data
42:33
Do you think remote areas and rural areas
42:35
are going to get good service in the way
42:37
that they do if they do?
42:38
They'd have to pay a lot of money
42:40
Exactly people can't afford and now we're
42:43
playing with people's lives here.
42:44
Exactly. I think that's the problem
42:46
Yeah, so I very much think of it in in
42:48
those terms where it's like it doesn't
42:50
matter whether you live
42:51
in some remote area in
42:53
Alaska or new york city
42:56
Or rock island, Illinois where I grew up
42:59
You deserve to have a decent weather
43:01
forecast and it's the government's
43:02
responsibility to make sure
43:04
We have the data and the information to
43:06
keep you protected and keep you informed
43:09
Yeah
43:09
Now I guess, you know a lot
43:11
of the stuff that came out
43:12
especially since the trump administration
43:14
they're attributing it towards politics
43:16
like this is a political thing that
43:18
happened and we need to
43:20
uh
43:20
Understand that if the politics change
43:23
Maybe things will change and that's I
43:25
think that's the general hope for these
43:26
midterm elections that if you know
43:28
If things flip or things change then
43:30
hopefully things will change, you know in
43:32
especially in this in this situation
43:34
But is it could it be more about whether
43:37
like society values public service
43:39
infrastructure like
43:40
especially for science?
43:42
Like is this is this a sign where like
43:44
the you know, somebody just uses, you
43:46
know, a party comes in it
43:47
could have been democrats
43:48
It could have been republicans. It just
43:49
happened to be republicans this time and
43:51
said, hey, you know what?
43:53
We know we can find
43:54
room for for cost savings
43:56
And we're going to go into noah and we're
43:59
going to go into science
43:59
We're going to cut a bunch because it's a
44:01
big department. It's easy to cut
44:04
You know and we'll probably get a lot of
44:06
backing from the public on this
44:07
So is it more of like a political shift
44:09
or is it more of just society just
44:11
doesn't understand how important?
44:13
A service like noah is
44:15
I think it's a mix
44:17
I try to when it comes to noah in
44:20
particular. I try to not think of it in
44:21
partisan terms at all
44:24
And you know, frankly when
44:25
you see what congress has done
44:28
So the bush the trump administration
44:30
proposed their initial budget to really
44:33
just eviscerate noah
44:35
And then congress in the most recent
44:36
appropriations funds
44:37
that we worked very hard
44:39
To push against that and to advocate for
44:41
congress to fully fund noah
44:43
And that's basically what congress did
44:45
and that was republicans and democrats
44:48
Okay, so it wasn't a partisan issue and
44:51
you can't argue it as a partisan issue
44:53
At the end of the day, this is about
44:55
services that everybody needs
44:57
Everyone relies on everyone depends on
45:00
and so it doesn't actually help
45:02
To tell in telling that
45:04
story to make it a partisan thing
45:07
Uh, so, you know
45:09
We're seeing the trump administration go
45:11
through the process again where they
45:12
proposed another budget
45:13
They're cutting the you know operational
45:15
funding for noah by about a third
45:18
I mean it would just completely devastate
45:20
services that people depend on
45:22
And I think it's the sort of thing that
45:23
it may sound good politically in theory
45:27
But once you actually look at the details
45:29
and once you talk about the realities of
45:32
what that would mean
45:33
And what that would take off the table
45:35
for people's constituents in
45:38
congress and for businesses
45:40
Uh, then like all of a sudden you see
45:43
people getting really practical really
45:45
fast in terms of like, okay
45:47
We can't we can't cut that funding
45:49
because it's more
45:50
important than than we realized
45:53
And to get that
45:55
Across that message across like not only
45:58
do does ocean conservancy work within the
46:01
walls of government and to
46:03
Build those relationships, but you also
46:05
have relationships with your
46:06
constituents, right?
46:07
The people who who support you the people
46:09
who follow ocean conservancy
46:12
um and some people who may be affiliates
46:14
of those of those people family members
46:16
and so forth who may
46:17
not follow directly but
46:19
You know
46:20
Maybe need to be convinced that hey noah
46:21
is really crucial and especially in
46:23
certain certain situations
46:25
like we've discussed today
46:27
um
46:27
Has the has the ocean
46:29
conservancy had success?
46:31
in changing people's minds about
46:34
The importance of noah who may like to
46:36
for people who may not have thought
46:39
That noah was important
46:40
and agreed with the cuts
46:41
But now we're like, oh wait, we either we
46:43
either realize we're missing this service
46:44
that noah provided because of the cuts
46:47
Or we understand now better because of
46:50
the messaging from
46:51
ocean conservancy and other
46:53
Nonprofits and other people who are
46:54
trying to fight these cuts
46:55
Yeah, I mean when we go to capital hill
46:58
when our teams and we have a fantastic
47:00
Team of people here at ocean conservancy
47:02
when we go to capital hill
47:04
um, we are very
47:07
Methodical about making sure that we're
47:09
not just going into offices where we know
47:11
people are going to agree with us
47:13
Yeah, we go into offices, you know
47:15
The leading edge offices where we think
47:17
they're probably going to disagree with
47:18
us, but we've got to tell
47:19
the story anyway, right?
47:21
We've got right and I I tell you what as
47:24
long as we're going in
47:26
with a a practical
47:28
Story based like let's talk about your
47:31
district and your constituents and why
47:33
this matters for your people
47:36
As long as we're going
47:37
in with that attitude
47:38
It's amazing how often we get surprised
47:40
by people who you know
47:42
Theoretically are not people who are
47:44
likely to agree with us
47:46
And so it's it's
47:47
about doing that hard work
47:49
Of you know, like I said before a
47:51
thousand small conversations.
47:53
It's about telling the story
47:55
It's about you know, we will always start
47:57
from the place of the ocean,
47:58
right when I talk about kansas
48:00
It's about how important ocean sensors in
48:03
the gulf of mexico are to kansas
48:05
Because that you know, there there is a
48:07
nexus though, but it's actually really
48:09
cool that those stories
48:11
happen to align with the
48:13
intersectionality within
48:15
noah, right the fact that
48:17
You know, let's talk about the importance
48:19
of the ocean to kansas and that literally
48:22
demonstrates how you cannot cut
48:25
Any of that that chain
48:27
that ends up with a tornado
48:30
forecast
48:31
In in the heart of the midwest or the
48:33
heart of the great plains
48:35
Because if you ignore the ocean
48:38
You don't have a chance in doing what
48:40
you're trying to do, uh in in the middle
48:42
of kansas or oklahoma
48:43
or illinois or wisconsin
48:46
gotcha now, um
48:48
there's a lot of
48:50
fight
48:51
from conservationists
48:53
ocean advocates people
48:55
around the us and around the world
48:57
To bring like, you know to make sure no
48:59
doesn't get cut and also to
49:00
fight a lot of other policy
49:01
There's deep sea mining policy. There's
49:04
Oil and gas exploration policy that a lot
49:06
of people are fighting
49:08
and it can get
49:10
a little
49:11
you know
49:12
uh depressing at times
49:14
because once you know
49:15
You think you fight one thing then
49:16
another thing comes out and all these,
49:19
you know rfi's like request for
49:21
information are coming out for
49:23
all these different policies, um
49:25
And you know it it can it can kind of you
49:28
kind of lose the hope at some point
49:31
what
49:32
You know, what gives you hope right now?
49:35
Uh, you know about the
49:37
future of ocean policy?
49:40
Oh
49:40
It's such an important question
49:42
And I think that the the thing that
49:45
Is easy to forget is the perspective if
49:48
you only look at a short time period
49:51
But when you look at a broader time
49:53
horizon and you look at multiple decades
49:56
Yeah
49:57
Climate change is is getting worse and
50:00
that's a big challenge.
50:01
That's like on the upswing
50:03
You've got you know
50:05
Plastic pollution in
50:06
the ocean is a big problem
50:07
That's a big thing that we need to fight
50:09
and battle and tackle for the future
50:12
But there are also a lot of challenges
50:14
that we've actually gotten our hands
50:16
around pretty well, right?
50:18
The sustainability of our fisheries in
50:20
the united states is
50:21
vastly better than it was
50:23
Back in the 70s when the maggots and
50:25
stevens act was originally passed
50:27
You know the state of endangered species
50:29
while there's a lot of species
50:31
recoveries that need to happen
50:33
We have stopped seeing the rate of
50:35
extinction that you know originally was
50:37
happening or and was
50:38
anticipated to happen
50:41
You know back in the 70s and so
50:43
Much less talk about water quality and
50:45
air pollution and those sorts of things
50:47
again. There are way
50:49
more challenges. I mean
50:50
Water pollution is fascinating that we've
50:52
come so far and yet we
50:53
still have so much further to go
50:55
right
50:57
But I think the the thing that gives me
50:59
hope is the fact that we have made
51:01
progress in so many areas
51:03
Yeah, the areas where I think
51:06
we have a lot more work to do
51:08
You know, it can feel daunting, but
51:10
that's where innovation happens, right?
51:12
Yeah, and that's where you roll up your
51:14
sleeves and you do your work and you call
51:16
your member of congress because that's
51:17
what we all need to do
51:18
Yeah
51:20
But at the end of the day, we can't do
51:21
any of this if we don't have the basic
51:24
federal infrastructure in place
51:27
And the the primary ocean agency that is
51:30
intact that has the best scientists in
51:32
the world and the
51:33
best experts in the world
51:35
If we don't have that
51:36
It's a much harder place to start from so
51:39
we've got to keep our basically our core
51:41
infrastructure in place
51:43
Yeah, and we can tackle these problems.
51:45
I'm not saying we're
51:46
going to win everything
51:47
Right in the next 10 years, but but you
51:50
know, we've demonstrated time and time
51:51
again that we can find
51:52
solutions and we can make progress
51:55
You you hit on a really
51:57
interesting point we've come so far
52:00
Right in terms of like I mean at one
52:02
point lake gary set itself
52:03
on fire. It was so polluted
52:06
You know having the the clean water act
52:08
the clean air act on the
52:10
canning inside having similar acts
52:12
That allowed us to have safe drinking
52:14
water that allowed us to have all these
52:16
Different things that we
52:17
don't even know about most of us
52:20
That are already enacted and have helped
52:22
us serve for a better environment
52:24
And I think it's interesting we hear
52:25
about a lot of stuff
52:26
that we still need to do
52:27
You know, we hear a lot of endangered
52:28
species still need help and this and that
52:30
But like you said because these acts have
52:33
been passed we're seeing
52:35
less of extinction, right?
52:37
Do you think that like as you know ocean
52:38
advocates ourselves like whether it's
52:40
ocean conservancy
52:41
whether it's us as individuals
52:43
We have the
52:43
responsibility to kind of remind people
52:46
Of how good some of these acts do and do
52:48
you think like we may have?
52:51
I don't want to use the word failed
52:53
But maybe miss the
52:54
mark in reminding people
52:56
That these are things that I got on a
52:58
regular basis that these are things that
53:00
Have helped and these and and and having
53:03
things like specific departments
53:06
Within noah have helped us maintain
53:10
The level that we have now even though
53:12
there's improvements to be made
53:14
Yeah, I mean, I think we need to
53:15
constantly be telling those stories
53:17
and in in some respects
53:19
moments like right now
53:21
When things seem to be
53:23
under fire and under threat
53:26
People are more open to hearing those
53:28
stories now than they are when everything
53:30
is just fine and not really under
53:33
kind of the
53:34
You know the political
53:35
threat that uh that it is today
53:38
and so in some ways, you know
53:40
Like right now is a wonderful moment to
53:43
be able to tell the story of noah and how
53:45
important noah is in your life
53:48
Yeah, because it is under threat and we
53:50
are at risk of losing things
53:52
And my goodness
53:53
You need to call your member of congress
53:55
and let your member of congress know
53:57
That you don't want noah to go away and
53:59
that noah needs to be fully funded
54:02
but the um
54:04
The storytelling is a constant exercise.
54:07
It will never be
54:07
done. We'll never be done
54:09
For sure. Um, but I think as long as
54:11
we're driven by curiosity
54:14
In that storytelling, I mean there's
54:17
nothing better than being curious and
54:19
there's nothing better be to be curious
54:21
about than the ocean
54:23
Absolutely. I was gonna ask you if you
54:25
could leave our
54:26
listeners with one message
54:27
About no, I feel like that's that's it
54:30
I mean, you know, I we you and I know a
54:33
number of people who work for noah
54:35
They're driven by
54:36
curiosity. They're driven by
54:38
This this mission to help
54:41
Uh the agencies that they work for
54:42
protect the ocean protect the people
54:45
In the us and around the world
54:48
Uh, because we they do have programs that
54:50
help us around the world
54:51
You know not only from like looking at
54:53
sharks and and looking at different fish
54:55
species to making sure
54:56
that people have seafood
54:58
Uh, not only in the us but also around
55:00
the world, you know, but also look the
55:02
the the meteorological
55:04
services that they provide
55:06
tsunami warning
55:08
Technology and and and
55:09
services is just huge
55:11
Uh, no, those are just a couple of like
55:13
less than a handful of
55:14
the things that they can do
55:16
So I think it's really
55:16
important now, you know
55:18
One thing that I always say too is as you
55:19
as you mentioned calling your
55:21
congressperson to say hey, you know
55:23
We need to you know, remind them of their
55:25
duties to protect the citizens and and
55:27
and protect the ocean
55:29
and if they don't listen
55:30
there's some midterms coming up and
55:33
You know if if somebody's
55:34
not listening to what you want
55:36
You have the right to to vote for
55:38
somebody who will listen
55:39
to to what you want. So
55:41
You know feel free to to exercise your
55:43
right to do that, you know, and I think
55:45
that's that's a an important message
55:47
especially coming up
55:49
And and the way the things have gone and
55:50
it hasn't gone in the
55:52
way of the environment
55:52
So if you want things to
55:53
change this is your time to change
55:55
It's not sitting on the couch and be like
55:57
no my my vote doesn't
55:58
matter. It does matter
56:00
And I think it's really important to to
56:01
get out and vote so that people
56:03
listen because you know,
56:04
one thing i've seen is uh,
56:07
Is work that people put in to make sure
56:10
that people comment, you know against
56:12
these these deep sea mining rfi's and
56:14
uh during the public comment period as
56:17
well as the oil and gas exploration and
56:19
although some many of them have been
56:21
ignored or will be ignored by this
56:23
current administration
56:25
If you vote for the right people
56:27
Afterwards that that could switch in the
56:29
midterms, right and
56:31
they could look at that
56:32
Like you're the new congresspeople can
56:33
come in and look at that and be like
56:35
well, hold on a second
56:36
People don't want this and we work for
56:38
the people. So hopefully
56:38
that that can get changed. So
56:40
um, that's what i'll leave but if you
56:42
want to leave any last words that you
56:44
want to give give my audience this but
56:46
We have a lot of
56:47
americans in the audience
56:48
And people who love noah in this audience
56:51
who are americans and and beyond so what
56:54
would be the last
56:54
thing you'd like to say?
56:56
Uh for for this time because
56:57
we'd love to have you back on
56:58
No, just plus one to everything that you
57:00
just said and it's it's why calling
57:03
members of congress is so important
57:05
I think a lot of people think that it
57:07
doesn't matter. It really does as someone
57:09
who's worked in a congressional office
57:11
You've got a call members of congress
57:13
want to know where their constituents are
57:15
at and if there's something burning
57:17
That you care deeply about that. You
57:19
don't like the way things are going
57:21
Give them an earful. That's what they're
57:23
there for and yeah, um, you
57:25
know, then they can go into
57:27
Uh any election season at least they know
57:30
what uh, what what matters to you?
57:33
Yeah, absolutely. Jeff. This has been uh,
57:36
so much fun to have you on
57:37
I thank you for the work that you and
57:39
your colleagues have done
57:39
over at ocean conservancy
57:41
We're a big fan of you here at the
57:43
podcast of of of of the
57:45
organization of the work
57:46
And and coming on and sharing why we we
57:50
need noah why we should care about noah
57:53
So we thank you so much. We'll get this
57:54
message out as much as possible
57:57
We'd love to have you back on talk more
57:58
about your work at ocean conservancy and
58:00
hopefully next time you're back on
58:02
We'll see a bit of a change and and um
58:04
and some changes and some
58:05
policies. Yeah, that's great
58:07
Yeah, thank thank you so much. Appreciate
58:09
it. Thank you. Thank you. Jeff for
58:11
joining us on today's episode of the how
58:13
to protect the ocean
58:13
Podcast it was great to have this
58:15
conversation. Look noah is
58:16
one of those institutions
58:18
Many people never even think about until
58:20
something goes wrong
58:21
But as you heard today from jeff it
58:23
touches your daily life in
58:25
more ways than most of us realize
58:27
From storm warnings and safer seafood to
58:29
wildlife protection and ocean discovery
58:32
So I want to say a big thank you to jeff
58:34
waters for joining us on today and
58:36
helping us make sense
58:37
Of what is at stake with these funding
58:39
cuts and if this episode helped you
58:42
better understand why noah matters
58:44
Share it with someone who should hear it
58:46
Just all you have to do is just share the
58:47
link with whatever
58:48
podcast app you're listening to
58:49
It's easy for them to
58:50
pick it up and listen to it
58:52
And of course if you are new to the
58:54
podcast or if you haven't
58:55
followed the show before
58:57
Click that follow button right now in
58:58
your favorite podcast app, whether it's
59:00
apple podcast spotify
59:02
Amazon music whatever that might be to
59:04
follow the how to protect the ocean
59:05
podcast for next week's ocean
59:07
Update. I want to thank you so much for
59:09
joining me on today's episode of the how
59:10
to protect the ocean podcast
59:12
I'm your host. Andrew and have a great
59:14
day. We'll talk to you next
59:14
time and happy conservation