Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Did pervs try to lure Little Leaguer at 7-Eleven for candy, then shoot boy dead? Who murdered little Chuckie Mauk?

Transcript

Did pervs try to lure Little Leaguer at 7-Eleven for candy, then shoot boy dead? Who murdered little Chuckie Mauk? · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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  Speaker 1: Nancy Grace is coming to Fox Nation. I want Justice
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, available now only on Fox Nation.
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: You know, I never pushed the twins to be involved
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  Speaker 1: in any particular sport, but I can't tell you how
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  Speaker 1: proud I was when Lucy played volleyball and John David
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  Speaker 1: it's a soccer star. I'm talking about Chuck Ye Mak
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  Speaker 1: Chuckie Mak, a little boy and I will forever remember
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  Speaker 1: him in his little league outfit. His mom, Cathy so
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  Speaker 1: proud of him, and she tells me she'll never forget
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  Speaker 1: the night she had her hands in the sink washing
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  Speaker 1: dishes after supper and he called out, mom kind of
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  Speaker 1: go to seven to eleven and get some candy, and
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  Speaker 1: she said sure. He was never seen alive by her again.
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  Speaker 1: Who murdered this beautiful boy, Chucky Mack. I want Justice
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  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. What could be more innocent
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  Speaker 1: than a little boy asking mom to ride his bike
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  Speaker 1: about a block and a half to the seven to
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  Speaker 1: eleven the convenience store to get candy. You know, when
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  Speaker 1: I look around, not Lucy, but John David, my son's bed,
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  Speaker 1: all around his computer and basically everywhere he is in
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  Speaker 1: the car, I find candy rappers. I do not give
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  Speaker 1: him that, but he gets his hands on it somehow.
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  Speaker 1: I guess the black market. At school, I'm just thinking
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  Speaker 1: about this little boy, Chucky Mock. And when I think
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  Speaker 1: about Chucky Mack, I envisioned him in his Little League
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  Speaker 1: outfit because that's one of the only pictures I have
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  Speaker 1: of him, and he has his big smile on his
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  Speaker 1: face and he's looking right at the camera. I think
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  Speaker 1: about my son at that age, and then I think
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  Speaker 1: about Chucky's mother, who is now a friend of mine.
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  Speaker 1: What happened to Chucky? And that one evening everything changed
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  Speaker 1: that one question, Hey Mom, can I go get some candy?
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  Speaker 1: Everything changed in an instant. I mean, see, Grace, this
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  Speaker 1: is crime Stories. Thank you for being with us, with
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  Speaker 1: me an all star panel to make sense of it all.
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: Jim Elliott, lawyer, Butler Snow legal counsel for Georgie Municipalities.
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: You can find in Butler's Snow dot Com. Professor Forensics,
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon.
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan, Psychoanalyst to the Stars, Joining me out
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  Speaker 1: of Beverly Hill's Doctor Bethany Marshall at doctor Bethany Marshall
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  Speaker 1: dot com, Founder and director of the Cold Case Research Institute,
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  Speaker 1: My longtime colleague. We met at a crime scene, Cheryl McCollum,
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  Speaker 1: Crime online dot com investigative reporter Levi Page. But first
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  Speaker 1: I'm going to go to my friend Kathy Miller, Chuckie's mom. Kathy,
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  Speaker 1: I'm so glad you're with us today. Hey, my friend.
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  Speaker 1: You know, Kathy, even when I hear your voice, I
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  Speaker 1: would recognize it anywhere. But there are thousands of people
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  Speaker 1: that don't know you and don't know Chucky's story. Can
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  Speaker 1: I get you to start at the beginning When Chucky
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  Speaker 1: asked to go to a seven to eleven. Okay, it
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  Speaker 1: was February seventeenth of nineteen eighty six, and you know,
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  Speaker 1: we had just had supper. I was just cleaning up
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  Speaker 1: the supper dishes and he just came in esp if
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  Speaker 1: he could go to seven to eleven because he would
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  Speaker 1: buy candy to sell at school the next day at break.
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  Speaker 1: He just thought he was making himself a little sending money.
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  Speaker 1: So you know, in my hurry, you know, White, Kathy,
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  Speaker 1: I've got to tell you something. There's been a development
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  Speaker 1: with John David. Lucy is not let me see an entrepreneur. Entrepreneur,
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  Speaker 1: but John David comes home because Mom, I invested in
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  Speaker 1: a company. I'm like, really, tell me, because I invested
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  Speaker 1: a dollar four quarters and so and so's company is
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  Speaker 1: going to be big. Mom, because he told me I
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  Speaker 1: can make a million dollars in a year. I'm like, well,
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  Speaker 1: I hope that works. Gosh, that sounds like chuck at
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  Speaker 1: a bank. I think it was like ten dollars at
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  Speaker 1: the bag. Wanted to the last thing, but um, so
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  Speaker 1: you're you go in my midst of climb a cli
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  Speaker 1: and dishes and everything. I didn't look at him, and
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  Speaker 1: I just said, okay, but hurry back. Okay, No, wait
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  Speaker 1: a minute. The time of the day was it, Kathy?
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  Speaker 1: It was like seven thirty, seven thirty at night in
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  Speaker 1: the evening, not yet dark, and it was still light out,
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  Speaker 1: and this little store is just like walking distance. It
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  Speaker 1: was just like riot rumore is it? Did he go
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  Speaker 1: on his bike as the crow flies? He went on
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  Speaker 1: his bike? Yeah? Or did he go down the street
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  Speaker 1: and turn? I mean, because yeah, he went like just
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  Speaker 1: a few feet down the street and then into it's
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  Speaker 1: a huge like like a little shopping center with a
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  Speaker 1: bowling alley, yes, and a little grocery store. After we've
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  Speaker 1: been the center, not big like a strip center, but
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  Speaker 1: small like you know, just a few things in it.
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  Speaker 1: So he goes, it's still light in the neighborhood, and
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  Speaker 1: this was a neighbor Let me ask you something with me?
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  Speaker 1: Is Kathy Miller? This is Chucky Mark's mom. Oh gosh,
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  Speaker 1: I wish you could see that photo of Chucky in
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  Speaker 1: his little League outfit. Okay, back to that evening you
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  Speaker 1: had had dinner with the whole family. You said you
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  Speaker 1: didn't even look at him. I understand that's because you
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  Speaker 1: had your back turned to him in your hands in
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  Speaker 1: the dishwater. Yes, I was. You know, you're doing a
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  Speaker 1: million things and you just but I always used to
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  Speaker 1: and I always tried to look at him before he'd left. Really,
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  Speaker 1: why why does that stick in your head? That night?
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  Speaker 1: I didn't, But why does that stick in your head?
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  Speaker 1: Why would you always try to look at him? I
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  Speaker 1: don't know. I just had it. I don't know, it
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  Speaker 1: was just something I always did. I like, you know,
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  Speaker 1: he had watched all these crime stories and they'll say, well,
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  Speaker 1: what did he have on? You know? Or and they
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  Speaker 1: did ask me that, you know, what was he wearing?
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  Speaker 1: And it was just something I did. But I just
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  Speaker 1: in the midst of everything, you know, I just thought
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  Speaker 1: he'd been right back. I didn't do it, you know,
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: joining me. You may know her well. Kathy is the
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  Speaker 1: founder and director of the Cold Case Research Institute. We
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  Speaker 1: met on a crime scene. I don't know how many
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  Speaker 1: years ago, Cheryl McCollum. You know, Cheryl, I was so
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  Speaker 1: I only thought about it later, but I was so
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  Speaker 1: knocked out when a while back, it was Valentine's Day
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  Speaker 1: actually that you and I read a crime event that
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  Speaker 1: you arranged to help a family when an unsolved case.
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  Speaker 1: And I said, where's Huck, which is your son? And
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  Speaker 1: you could tell me immediately where he was and he
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  Speaker 1: is actually in college on lacrosse scholarship and traveling that
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  Speaker 1: night from his college to a lacrosse game somewhere out
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  Speaker 1: of state, and you knew exactly where he was. And
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  Speaker 1: I'm listening to Kathy, and I have this thing. I
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  Speaker 1: take the twins to school, pick him up every day,
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  Speaker 1: come hell or high water, and I watched them until
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  Speaker 1: they walk in, until they have their hands on the
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  Speaker 1: door and they go in. I think subconsciously it's because
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  Speaker 1: of Karen Horman. I'm not sure about that, but I
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  Speaker 1: watch to see them walk in once they get out
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  Speaker 1: of the car, just like Kathie is saying, every time
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  Speaker 1: he left, just for whatever reason, she always looked at him,
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  Speaker 1: except that night. That night. And I tell you, Nancy,
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  Speaker 1: my youngest son, Greg, who is forty two, I know
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  Speaker 1: where he is all the time, and when he walks
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  Speaker 1: out the store, I look at him. Cheryl McCollum jump in.
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  Speaker 1: There is no doubt in my mind that you and
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  Speaker 1: I parent differently because of believe ephrades, because of the chuckies.
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  Speaker 1: We know, we know that there are devils walking this earth,
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  Speaker 1: so we protect our children differently than our mother's protected us.
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  Speaker 1: So to speak. Our mom said, hey, stay together on
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  Speaker 1: the bike or come home before he gets Really mine
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  Speaker 1: never said that, but he knew you. This is funny, funny, odd,
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  Speaker 1: I guess we were out in the middle of nowhere,
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  Speaker 1: as you know, Kathy, in rural Bibb County. It was
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  Speaker 1: not even in the city of Making, And when we
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  Speaker 1: would hear the chimes ringing in the church steeple, we
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  Speaker 1: would know it was six o'clock. Or way at the distance,
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  Speaker 1: would hear somebody blowing the car horn and that would
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  Speaker 1: be a message wherever we were to come home right
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  Speaker 1: then get home. So let me ask you, Kathy, exactly
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  Speaker 1: that evening it was you, Chucky, his then little brother,
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  Speaker 1: anybody else in the home, Yeah, my husband Chucky steps right, okay,
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  Speaker 1: So take a listen to what you told me. February seventeenth,
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  Speaker 1: nineteen eighty six. The night he died, It was a
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  Speaker 1: Monday night, the night he died, at the full Monday
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  Speaker 1: night for us, the night he died. And that's kind
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  Speaker 1: of like when my world just fell apart. Had wanted
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  Speaker 1: to go to the grocery stores right down the road,
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  Speaker 1: right around the corner from where we lived. It was
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  Speaker 1: an over in a matter of moment, to buy some
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  Speaker 1: candies for the next day. There was a group of
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  Speaker 1: kids here all the time. One of his friends came
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  Speaker 1: to our door and told us that Chucky it looked
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  Speaker 1: like Chuckie was hurt. But you never forget this point. Gosh,
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  Speaker 1: he's fallen off his bike, he's hurt his leg or something,
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  Speaker 1: and he was just laying right here. And the closer
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  Speaker 1: I got, I knew it was so much more than that,
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  Speaker 1: I knew the um light and that's when we found it.
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  Speaker 1: And that's where it happened, Kathy. After he leaves, you're
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  Speaker 1: still washing the dishes. What happens next, Um, a knock
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  Speaker 1: on the door. And how much later? Huh? How much later?
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  Speaker 1: About It was about eight, like five after eight something
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  Speaker 1: like that. It's about twenty thirty five minutes. Yeah, yeah,
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  Speaker 1: And you know, so I knew it was getting a
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  Speaker 1: little light. But knowing Chucky, he probably stopped and picked
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  Speaker 1: a friend up and they all rode their bikes together.
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  Speaker 1: So I said, so she anyway, she knocked on the
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  Speaker 1: door and said, I think Chucky is hurt. I can
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  Speaker 1: see him laying, you know, in the parking line. I thought,
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  Speaker 1: you know, oh my gosh, he's broke his leg. He's
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  Speaker 1: hurt his arm. So me, my husband and Greg, you know,
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  Speaker 1: we started going up there, and then Pete started running
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  Speaker 1: and you had did you have the little brother? Were Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: because I remember one time you described to me how
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  Speaker 1: you were basically dragging him by the arm. Yeah. And
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  Speaker 1: then Pete, because I had him know, we were just
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  Speaker 1: walking up there, you know, because I thought I'd see Chuck.
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  Speaker 1: He's sitting there just saying, oh, Mom, it's nothing, you know,
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  Speaker 1: I just hurt my leg. But um, the closer we
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  Speaker 1: got that felt like I was in slow motion and
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  Speaker 1: like I couldn't get there, And that's where we found
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  Speaker 1: him laying there and he was shot the back of
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  Speaker 1: They hit Climb Stories with Nancy Grace February seventeenth, nineteen
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  Speaker 1: eighty six. The night he died, it was a Monday night.
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  Speaker 1: The night he died had before Monday night for us,
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  Speaker 1: the night he died, And that's kind of like why
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  Speaker 1: my world just fell apart. Chucky had wanted to go
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  Speaker 1: to the grocery stores right down the road, right around
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  Speaker 1: the corner from where we lived. It was an over
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  Speaker 1: in a matter of moments to buy him candy for
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  Speaker 1: the next day. There was a group of kids here
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  Speaker 1: all the time. One of his friends came to our
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  Speaker 1: door and told us that Chucky. It looked like Chucky
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  Speaker 1: was hurt, But you never forget this place. God, she's
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  Speaker 1: fawn off his bike, he's hurt his leg or something,
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  Speaker 1: and he was just laying right here and the clothes
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  Speaker 1: here I got. I knew it was so much more
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  Speaker 1: than that. I knew the light and that's when we
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  Speaker 1: found it. That's where it happened. This little boy with
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  Speaker 1: a big smile and his the league outfit. I'm looking
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  Speaker 1: at it right now, the cap on it. Who would
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  Speaker 1: want to hurt this little boy with me? His mother,
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  Speaker 1: Kathy Miller, Kathy, you left off where you felt like
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  Speaker 1: you were going in slow motion when you saw he
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  Speaker 1: wasn't sitting there saying mom, I hurt my leg. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: what did you see? I could see him laying on
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  Speaker 1: his stomach, and I could see the blood, and he
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  Speaker 1: was so steell, and and I knew I just I
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  Speaker 1: knew it, and it just felt like I could get
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  Speaker 1: to him fast enough. And then the police were there,
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  Speaker 1: and then my husband came up and told me that
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  Speaker 1: it was Chucky, and I just didn't believe it. I
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  Speaker 1: just didn't believe it was him. I thought maybe somebody
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  Speaker 1: had borrowed his bike, you know, and they were just
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  Speaker 1: lying to me. But it was him. And when they
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  Speaker 1: rolled they thought at first it was a hit and run.
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  Speaker 1: And when they rolled him over, the bullet came out
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  Speaker 1: the side of his face, so they didn't know it
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  Speaker 1: was a He had been shot at close range. What
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  Speaker 1: of that haze stands out in your mind? The most
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  Speaker 1: cathy like where they outline his body with the chalk
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  Speaker 1: that stands out, and the crowd that just the crowds
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  Speaker 1: stands out, and everybody pulling me away, not to get
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  Speaker 1: close to Chuckie, just pulling me and trying to calm
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  Speaker 1: me down as I guess what stands in my mind.
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  Speaker 1: But I just knew I couldn't take my eyes office,
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: you know, you know, there's just so much going on,
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: just so much, and then it was it was just
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  Speaker 1: something no parents should see. To doctor Bethany Marshall's psychoanist
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  Speaker 1: joining us out of la Doctor Bethany, I'm listening to
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  Speaker 1: Kathy Miller described what she recalls, and I've asked her
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  Speaker 1: several times, and I do the same thing to witnesses,
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: because every time you hear it, there's a tiny difference
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: or maybe a fact or a tidbit you didn't hear
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: the first time, but was striking me right now, Doctor Bethany,
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: is I remember when my fiance was murdered? What stuck
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  Speaker 1: out of what I remember? I remember walking across campus
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  Speaker 1: and after a statistics exam and stopping halfway at a
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  Speaker 1: pay phone and the student co op to call the
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  Speaker 1: library where I worked to tell them I was going
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  Speaker 1: to be late because the test ran over, and they
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  Speaker 1: said call Keith's sister Judy. And I remember trying to
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  Speaker 1: call and my hand was like a moth around a
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  Speaker 1: light as the elo I can describe it, trying to
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  Speaker 1: punch the buttons correctly. And I knew. I knew immediately
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  Speaker 1: that Keith was gone. It was over. It's interesting, I
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  Speaker 1: remember I told you the story wants, Doctor Bethany. The
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  Speaker 1: first carjack murder case I ever tried, that I ever
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  Speaker 1: took to a jury. It was a young guy who
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  Speaker 1: just walked down in his driveway to get something out
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  Speaker 1: of his car, and the purps came by shot him dead,
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: just to get his car. A neighbor ran out and
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: brought a pillow as the victim was dying in the
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  Speaker 1: driveway or already dead, and put his head on the pillow.
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  Speaker 1: And that fact, not the horrible violence of the fact.
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  Speaker 1: It was the pay phone. It was the pillow. For Cathy,
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: it's to chalk outline. What does that mean, Doctor Bethany,
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  Speaker 1: Why do we do that? I think we have something
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  Speaker 1: called evocative memory, where oh wait a minute, I've never
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: heard this from you. Evocative memory, Okay, go ahead. Evocative
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  Speaker 1: memory where a site, a smell, a sound, a feeling,
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: an experience gets paired with the event and then that
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: one that pairing in our mind gets kind of seared
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: into our memory. For instance, whenever you tell me about Keith,
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  Speaker 1: your fiance, you tell me a certain sequencing of events.
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: You tell me you were taking a test, that you
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: were slightly late, you had to go to a pay phone,
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: that you had to call Keith's sister. I mean you
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: have paired a certain sequencing of events with that particular
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  Speaker 1: time of your life, and that is what we call
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: evocative memory. I think another thing that happens that you're
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: pointing out is that we human beings have to live
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: with an illusion of safety, meaning that how we go
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: about our days is we feel safe. So when Chucky's
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: mom said, sure, go to the store and gets some candy,
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: there was an illusion of safety, and that is a
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: part of good mental health. But when you think of
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: homicide stats, according to one stat one and one hundred
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: and thirty three people will be a victim of homicide
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: and whole households can be victimized. You know, not only
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: with Chucky victimized, but the whole household, by proxy, was victimized.
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: That is not a very safe situation. All of us
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  Speaker 1: can be victimized. So her illusion of safety was shattered
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  Speaker 1: in a minute, and that fears itself into one's memory, Kathy.
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: And that's why, Kathy, I know you can hear what
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: doctor Bethany's saying. So what did the witnesses say? You
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: said there was a crowd gathered around, Yeah, what happened?
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: I mean, were you even in any shape to say
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: what happened? Though? I wasnot? But um, you know, this
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  Speaker 1: crowd had gathered after Chuck he died, so only two
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  Speaker 1: people saw him talking to someone in a white car.
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  Speaker 1: But these two people, two people were children, and they
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: were in a car driving on the road next to
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: the parking lot. And all they did was say, well,
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: wait a minute, I gotta tell you something about children,
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: Kathy Miller did Jim Elliott trial lawyer with Butler Snow
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: butlersnow dot com. Longtime trial lawyer, Jim Elliott. You know,
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: under a lot of jurisdictions law children are treated under
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  Speaker 1: the law as quote their words not mine, idiots or lunatics,
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: their words not mine, because it's assumed in many of
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: jurisdictions that children don't know right from wrong and can't
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  Speaker 1: tell the truth. I disagree. I have found children to
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  Speaker 1: be some of my very best witnesses ever because they
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: don't always have the ability to lie like adults. So
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  Speaker 1: in my mind, you know, if you can unlock what
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: they're saying, child witnesses are excellent. Well, they gave us
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  Speaker 1: a composite sketch of the person they saw. Did you
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: hear that? They said to their dad, you know, there's Chuck,
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  Speaker 1: So they did see him and he was just holding
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: onto his bike leaning talk to someone. Jim Elliott weigh
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: in on child witnesses. Absolutely, I mean they're not they're
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: not as jaded as we are as adults. They don't
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: have they haven't been through situations where they have to
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: make up something or I mean absolutely, I think the
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: propensity for truth is much greater Franklin than a child
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: than it would be in many adults. So bottom line,
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: have they what did they say happened? They just said
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: Chucky was talking and that was there talking to and
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: then someone and white light colored car, a male, A male.
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: I think it was two. I've never been told that
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: for sure, but for some reason I think the detective
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: that was first there said they said there were two
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: people in the bar Clime stories with Nancy Grace. Chuckie's
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: family lived right behind the Bowling Alley on Burns Drive.
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: He'd write his bike to a nearby convenience store all
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: the time to buy candy. But one February night was different.
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: Sometime when in those ensuing minutes, someone heard a loud pop.
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: One witness that I've talked to XU described and just
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: thinking it was a firecracker and kids playing. This is
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: where Chucky's body was found. He lived in the neighborhood
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: just beyond this fence. Post witness this say they saw
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: him talking to someone in a light colored call, but
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: he don't know who. We had a lot of witnesses,
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: a lot of people saw things. They see a vehicle
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: speeding away as they approached. Within the next two minutes,
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: Chucky's found a seas you're hearing our friends at forty
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: one NBCWMGT that Skyler Henry's speaking with me an All
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: Star panel. Kathy Miller, Jim Elliott, Joseph Scott Morgan, doctor
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall, Cheryl McCollum, and Levi Page to this day,
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: his murder has not been solved. To Levi Page investigative Reporter,
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: Crime online dot com, where you can find this in
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: all other breaking crime and justice news. What do we know, Levi, Nancy,
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: we know that there were witnesses that had witnessed certain
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: elements of this murder. The little girl saw him fall
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: off of his bike alerted his mother. Another witness says
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: that they heard a loud pop that they thought was
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: a firecracker going off, but it was much more sinister.
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: It was not an accident on the bicycle. It was
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: not a firecracker going off. He was shot, And Nancy,
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: this is what is so disturbing. He was shot in
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: the back of the head. It went through the back
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: of his head and left his nose. It servered his
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: brainstem and when he was found, he was found in
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: a pool of blood and he was still gripping the
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: bubblegum that he purchased at the store along with the receipt. So,
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: Kathy Miller, that tells me, this is Chuckie's mom, And
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: believe me, it hurts her to hear these facts, but
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: she's here because she, like me, have not given up.
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: Because I believe that this case may be solved. Kathy Miller.
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: That tells me he made it into the seven to eleven,
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: that he was on his way home. Kathy, what do
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: you hold on tipline four seven eight five four two
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: two zero eight zero four seven eight five four two
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: two zero eight zero, Kathy Miller, what do you think happened?
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: I've always thought that either one or two white males
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: tried to lure him into that car. That's always what
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: I thought, because Chucky had no enemies. I mean, he
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: wasn't a bad kid. I mean he was good and
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: like everyone loved him. And I think someone wanted him
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: in that car and he wouldn't get in it, and
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: they and I think they knew that he knew them
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: and was check. He probably said, you know, I'm going
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: on in Mimi film my mom or my dad, and
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: they didn't want him to tell, and they shut him up.
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: Was his bike that he was riding facing back towards
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: the seven to eleven or was he coming home? He
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: was coming home and it was it was like, yeah,
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: he was coming home, but it was facing like sideways,
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: not like because he was standing next to it, so
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: he turned to get on it, and then you know
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: he fell and then it just fell right, Nancy to him,
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: joining me. Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: Beneath My Feet on Amazon Death investigator Joseph Scott Morgan.
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: Joe Scott, you know years have passed, She's lived with
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: this unsolved burden all this time. This case can be reconstructed,
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan help me out. Yeah, absolutely it can, Nancy.
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: And this is why these these bits of information that
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: are coming into us are critical. What I'm really curious
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: about is we have Chucky on the ground adjacent to
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: his bicycle. We have this information about the car. I'm
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: I'm very curious. And what's a big tell here is
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: the idea that, um, there is a relationship, a physical relationship,
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: and I mean like attitude in between Chucky and the shooter. Uh,
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: that could tell us a lot. Was he Uh? Was
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: he above or below Chucky when he shot? We want
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: to know about right, right, right he was in the cars,
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: I recall us and that right, Kathy, yes, no, right right,
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: he was sitting. They said the way the bullet entered,
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: it didn't um, it had to go the bullet had
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: to go up because it entered, you know, the back
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: of his name entered, the back of his head came
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: out through the nose area, So that that means that
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: we haven't interaction. We can validate what they're saying about
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: the interaction between Chucky and this individual in the car
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: of the individual never got out of the car, so
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: they fired literally from below to above. And this is key.
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: Something had happened so that Chucky changed his physical attitude
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: where he is moving away and in that instantaneous can
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: you just talk like regular people just for a moment
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: when you say change his physical attitude. That's what I
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: was trying to ask earlier Joe Scott, because I think
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: he was leaving the seven to eleven going towards the street.
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: He was confronted by one or two white males in
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: this vehicle I think, to get into his car. Did
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: he turn around, Joe Scott to go back to safety
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: to the seven to eleven? Did he move the angle
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: of the bike? What are you saying he changed his
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: physical attitude? Well, when I say physical attitude, what I
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: mean is that he's literally turning his entire body and
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: the bike so that as as his mama was saying,
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: he is trying to get back home. He's headed in
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: that direction. He's not going to win the store. Something
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: has occurred where he wants to put distance between himself
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: and the vehicle. He wants to go to the safety
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: of home. And it was at that moment time that
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: this person in the vehicle felt so comfortable in a
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: public environment that they would fire around out of their
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: vehicle and strike Chucky at that moment time. Now we
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: have a projectile, we have the bullet itself. According to
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: what I'm hearing, that's key. And here what was the caliber?
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: Do you know, Joscott? I do not know what the
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: caliber is, and I was really good. Do you know, Kathy?
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: Do you know the caliber? Who found the bullet? Okay? Well,
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: if that is the case, there could be fragments of
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: the bullet that were left behind. My curiosity has peaked
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: here because I want to know if those were recovered
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: at autopsy. One more big piece is that if this
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: was a semi automatic handgun and the individual stuck the
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: weapon outside of the vehicle, there is a high problem
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: ability that it would have echecked it out onto the
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: ground that is spent casing. Now, if it's a revolver.
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: It's not going to be there. They would have taken
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: that with them when they left with the weapon. Take
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: a listen to our friends at forty one NBC WMGT
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: Skyler Henry. The call first came in as a hidden run.
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: It was soon determined that he was actually died as
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: a ult of a single gunshot one and I'll say
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: some single gunshot one through the head. But who would
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: shoot a thirteen year old boy. We don't expect our
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: children to be shot and killed in House and County
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: in this matter. People during that time quit letting the
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: kids ride their wives. They quit letting them go up
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: the street on the box. Captain John Holland, like the
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: House and County Sheriff's office, says he an investigators interviewed
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: dozens of people trying to find that answer. They turned
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: the neighborhood inside out. They campased the neighborhood. I think
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: they set up road chicks during that time just to
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: find people that had seen things. And even to this day,
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: we do get calls with people that either have some
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: information or have an idea about who may have been involved.
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: There is still no suspect. It's a tough conversation. For Holland,
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: especially when he talks to Chuckie's mother, she still has
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: some hope that one day she'll get some resolution, but
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: it's difficult. Take a listen to what Captain John Holland says.
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: There are people in this community that when's the music
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: at that time, that no will happen to cut them
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: all and we'll have information that will lead to the
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: resolutions escape. Hi, guys, Nancy Grace here, we have all
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: worked so hard to bring to you, Don't Be a
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: Victim Fighting back against America's crime Wave, a brand new book.
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: After interviewing literally hundreds of crime victims and police, we
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: put our knowledge into Don't Be a Victim. You could
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: pre order now go to Crime online dot Com. Pre
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: order now and know that portions of our proceeds goes
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. Crime
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: Stories with Nancy Grace, I am a brief mother first
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: and foremost, I am a brief parent, and I am
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: a parent of a murdered child. Was he and I
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: was he scared? I guess that's that's something that's still
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: you know, was he scared that night? And you know
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: I wasn't there and was he scared and did he
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: know what was going to happen. The initial thought of
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: myself and the police department was that it was a
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: hit one. And when they turned Chucky over they found
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: that it was a gunshot to the head. People say, well,
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: maybe it was just a stray bullet. Well, no, not
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: to hit him. Somebody knew what they were doing, you know,
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: they didn't want to hurt him. We walked from down
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: there and came up here and then he was laid
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: right there and that's where we found him. They pushed
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: me over to this fence and I had to stand
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: there and then it was just it was out of control.
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: It was just mayhem. And that's sort of like when
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: I went away mentally. I guess you're hearing the voice
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: of Kathy Miller speaking to me. Kathy, the mom of
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: Chucky Mack gunned down in the parking lot at a
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: seven to eleven. This little boy just going to get
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: candy when he was shot by either one or two
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: white males from inside their car. He had the receipt
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: in the candy in his hand and was heading home
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: to mom. Kathy Miller, you have told me that people
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: seemingly blame you that somehow they're not the kind of
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: person this happens too, but you are. Would you recount
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: that story for me? Yeah? Yes. I worked at a
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: doctor's office and one of the patients has seems Chucky's
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: picture and asked me, you know, are you Chuck's mom?
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: And I said yes, I am. And you know, she
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: was just saying how awful it was Howie was murdered.
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: But she said, you know, when parents don't take care
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: of their children, God caused them home. And I was
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: just devastated because, like down deep in my heart, that
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: was a fear, like I should have been watching him.
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: I shouldn't have let him go. You know, this is
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: all my fault was. She hit on that, and I
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: was hysterical, but she meant it if I had just
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: been watching him, God calls children home. What did you
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: do When she said that, I've just excused myself from
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: my office and ran to my doctor and I was hysterical, crying.
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: I couldn't catch my breath because she said everything that
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: I believed for so long and made it all come
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: back like I knew I was right. I knew it
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: was my fault. I'm the one that should have said no,
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: and I just believed it, Doctor Bethany Marshall, What is
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: wrong with people? Why would anybody say that to Kathy?
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: She's already lived through the death of her son, the
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: shock of seeing his body and a parking lot bleeding
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: from the head, being pulled back from the scene. He
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: was only gone, you know, less than a few minutes.
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: And then yeah, somebody approached her like that, NANCYA could
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: be that the idea of a mother losing a son
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: of murder, of this being a crime of opportunity, that
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: this patient in this doctor's office, perhaps she has her
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: own children, that this reality is so undigestible, so horrible,
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: that she took a flight into a very trite, shallow
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: idea to bind her own anxiety about it. In other words,
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: it's easier to call on a silly, stupid, superficial idea
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: than to look a grieving weather in the eye and say,
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: this must be devastating for you. People do it all
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: the time, they retreat, you know, they really do. And
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum, I know you're not a psychoanalyst like doctor
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall out there on Rodeo's drive, but you and
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: I have doubt was so many violent crime victims. And
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: I really think that people say these her full things
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: like they said to Kathy, because it makes them feel safer.
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: Like you know, Cheryl, I've been working or working or working,
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: I'm a new book, don't be a victim. And people
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: always say, oh, well, that wouldn't happen to me, because
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: I would never go jogging at night, Well I have.
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: Or I would never park in a parking deck in
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: a distant spot, Well we all do it. Or I
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: would never this, or I would never that. Because it
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: makes you you feel like it won't happen to you
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: and you can get through your day a heck of
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: a lot better that way. I think it's absolutely a
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: way to protect yourself. That's all it can be. I
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: don't think that woman would be in as evil as
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: she came up, well I do. I think she's a hateful,
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: hateful minions straight from Hell. That's what I think. But
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: that's just me, you know. I mean, why does Kathy
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: need more pain heaped on her? I do? I think
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: she was protecting herself. But I tell you to look
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: at this case. The things that stick out to me
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: are the fact that Chucky was leaving, he was trying
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: to get away, and the killer never even got out
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: of his car. This was close range and to me,
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: the base of the neck, through the nose, that angle,
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: that was a kill shot. This person did not aim
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: at his back, towards his lungs or his heart. The
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: larger target. They picked, the smaller target that was absolutely
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: meant to kill him. On a little boy, a little
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: boy with a bag of candy and a receipt, riding
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: his bike. I really believe, Cheryl, that the killer knew Chucky.
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: I have no doubt in my mind, because, hey, Jim Elliott,
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: this is your backyard. Jim Elliott, veteran trial lawyer, joining
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: me from the area. You can find him at butlersnow
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: dot com. Jim L. Elliot. It's a very low crime
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: rate in that area when Chucky was shot, very low
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: crime rate. There was nothing at all wrong with letting
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: him go. The three blocks is the crow flies if
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: that much to get some candy in daylight, that's a
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: very common practice. It was a small town. I mean,
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: the chances of some random violent act like this were
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: incredibly small, especially at that time. You know what you're
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: making me think of right now? The murders at Delphi
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: of Liberty and Abigail up on that trestle bridge. That
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: is a very small town. What I'm saying, Jim Elliott,
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: the pool of suspects is very small. It's got to
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: be definitely very small. You know. Then there was another
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: interesting aspect of this matter, and Miss Miller can confirmed this.
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: The incident happened right on the right outside of the
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: city limits, and so there was some confusion initially about
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: which law enforcement agents see had jurisdiction. Yeah, and you know,
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: unfortunately a few a very short delay like that can
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: can create problems that can never be resolved, such as, Hey,
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: I'm a j D I'm not a mystic. What are you?
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: What are you trying to tell me? I'm just saying,
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: you know, who's going to take charge of the investigation?
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: This is my case? No, this is my case. What
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: do I care who's running the investigation? You said it
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: could hurt the investigation. How did that pause, that tiny delay,
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: How did that hurt the investigation. I'm not saying it
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: did hurt the investigation. I just think there's a chance
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: that happened because again, people couldn't react as quickly. Maybe
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: there could have been an opportunity to find that vehicle
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: much more quickly. Ah, yes, exactly the vehicle, Jim Elliott.
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: What do we know about in the vehicle if anything?
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: From people say why? Some people say light colored? You know,
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: unfortunately not very much. I don't think Kathy Miller wasn't
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: there a little more? Was it a four door vehicle? American?
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: May light color? What more do we know? Did have
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: a landown roof? What do we know about the vehicle
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: of anything? That's it? Oh? It was just a light
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: colored car. And mister Elliott is right because on my
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: side of the street was that county. Across the street
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: was the city blue line. Yes, and and there have
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: been odds about, like you know, who's doing what and
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: who's doing what? But did that really delay the investigation?
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: Do you think it did? I don't think it did,
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: But you know, I don't. I don't know. I don't
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: think it did. Me always knew there was Of all
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: the things to remember, why does that shalk outline stick
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: in your head? I don't know, but I don't. I
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: don't know. But it's just as clear, just as clear
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: as anything. Can you remember the funeral or the memorial? Um?
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: I can remember parts of it because when I was
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: going into the funeral home, there was this voice that
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: talked to me. It was me, but you know, it
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: was just I was the only one that could hear it,
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: and it just said, just remember, that's not him. He's
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: in Mississippi with his grandparents, so just go in and
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: sit down. And it was this sounds crazy, but this
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: voice did talk to me, and it would tell me
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: to do certain things, like I know what I hate
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: because they already look at me funny because I'm a
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: parent of a murdered child, Like I've already done something wrong,
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: you know, because your child was murdered. What else did
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: do you recall about that voice? About what the voice,
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: the voice you heard them, the voice that talks. Yeah.
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: And then it told me that because i'd go to
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: after he died, I'd go to his junior high school
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: and wait to pick him up for school from school,
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: and the voice, after we had waited there forever and
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: the school was all empty, the voice would say, oh,
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: he probably already rode his bike home. He's already at home.
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: So I would leave and go home. Kathy, after Chucky
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: was shot, you would go to the school to pick
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: him up Uh huh, because I'd go first and pick
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: up Greg and then I'd go pick up Chuck. I
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: didn't know that. I just kept Yeah, I'm just something
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: I remembered. I kept on doing it until I just
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: one day I just stopped. Would you share with everyone
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: what you told me about the pictures? What happened to
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: the pictures when you finally moved from that house that
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: you had with Jackie? Right? Um, Yeah, we've moved quite
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: soon afterwards, and we got a new house just because
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: i'd have to pass that every day. Yeah, and I
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: have his room. I just mentally I didn't think I
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: could do it, and so we bought a house and
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: you know, we're hanging things and hanging his pictures and
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: you know, just doing that, and then all of his
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: pictures fell. They all fell at the same time in
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: one room now, like there was in the living room,
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: my bedroom, in the hallway, you were hanging pictures and
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: then all at once, all the pictures of Chucky crashed
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: to the floor. I know it sounds crazy, It doesn't
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: sound crazy to me. Yeah, you'd be probably about only
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: one that understands that. Everybody else just just looks at me.
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: So I'll just put it out there, and I've taken
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: a lot of heat for this in the media industry.
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: I believe. I believe there is a life after death,
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: and I pray to God that I meet Chucky. There
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: with me is Kathy Miller, Chucky's mother. This is an
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: ongoing investigation. The tip line four seven eight five four
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: two two zero eight zero. It's been thirty four years. Nancy,
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: can you believe that? No? I can't. I just I mean,
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: and you know, Nancy, sometimes I ask myself, you know,
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: how what how long do I do this? I mean,
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: I know, how long until you can't? Until you can't?
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: But it seems like sometimes you just want to run
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: away from it, but there's nowhere to go. You know.
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: It's just it's it's with me constantly, and you know,
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: you look at people and you think, I wonder, you know,
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: does he look kind of look like that person? And
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: you know, it's just in every bit of happiness, there's
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: always that there that I think of, and then you think,
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: you know, why why are you laughing? And you know
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: you had a child night and I just don't know it.
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: They say time heals, but it might heal, but it
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: doesn't take away the herd. Our prayers go on for
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: Chuckie's mother Kathy and her family. There's still a chance
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: at justice for seven eight five two two zero eight
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: zero Nancy Grace Crime Story, signing off goodbye friend,