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Spotlight On Corrupt Cities | UK Column Interviews · UK Column Radio

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: My interview with Martin Brighton covers a twenty year timeline
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: of fraud, corruption and the cover up of child abuse
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: by city authorities, police and the courts. The crimes described
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: in our discussion continue to this day. Exposure is the
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: key to stopping these crimes. Please note that there are
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: some minor audio glitches in this interview. These sections are
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: audible but sound slightly different in quality to the studio
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: audio recording. Hello and welcome. I have Martin with me
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: in the studio, and Martin and his lady Eve have
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: come down to visit us in Plymouth. But also it
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: gave us the opportunity to sit in the studio and
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: have a conversation about how we got to know each
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: other and in particular what Martin has been investigating over
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: some twenty years. And that's a journey of investigation which
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: has ultimately ended relatively recently with a police raid and
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: the removal of a lot of evidence and computer equipment.
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: So this is quite a story which will come to
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: in due course. Martin brilliant that you're here. Thank you
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: very much, and you the audience, probably for me, knows
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: a bit about my background that I became interested in
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: what was taking place in Plymouth about twenty five years ago,
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: and in particular I was looking at misappropriation of very
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: large sums of money, of public money. I tried to
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: report that to the correct authorities, and that meant that
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: I was then subjected to pressure in my business. I
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: had used hypodermic needles put in the flower baskets in
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: my home. I had my family threatened. I had a
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: work colleague threatened, and this was an interesting journey. As
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: a result, I put up a website which was called
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: the Devonport Column Website, where I was talking about what
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: I was experiencing. And one evening, I think it was
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: a gentleman called Martin called me, which was your good self,
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: and you said that you'd had a look at the
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: website and that you also knew a little bit about
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: what I was describing because you were experiencing the same
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: thing in Sheffield. It was a bit of a long
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: winded opening. But do you remember those days from that
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: as long as long ago? I do, indeed, yes.
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: The memory is when it kicked off and just coming
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: home one afternoon we're talking about nearly thirty years ago now,
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: and my wife was crying on the settee, and she'd
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: been told that she wasn't going to be involved in
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: the community center anymore. She was no longer to be
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: a volunteer. They were going to take her clients, the
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: play group and the building and none of this was legal,
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: but she wouldn't know because someone from the council said
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: it was all a done deal. Now, at that time,
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: I was acting as an auditor, so I started asking
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: the questions, where's all this coming from? And it was
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: at that time when I started to dig deep that
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: I realized that from central government topped down, they were
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: appropriating European in funds and using it for their own agenda,
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: not for the benefit of the people, and if anyone
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: got in the way, they were removed.
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: So this is where there was a direct synergy, wasn't there,
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: Because I had experienced what I've just described in Plymouth,
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: and I was well apart from the threats and intimidation,
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: that was one thing, But I was particularly aghast at
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: the fact that so much public money was being misappropriated,
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: used fraudulently. And you'd got in touch with me, and
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: I think there's an important little bit of the story
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: is that I came up to Sheffield and we met
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: at a particular hotel and discussed what had been happening
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: to both of us. And I always describe it as
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: a glove, hand and a glove. So when I described
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: the type of person that I was watching in Plymouth,
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: because I believe that they were up to no good,
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: and when I described the tactics, you said, that's exactly
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: what's happening here in Sheffield.
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: That's right, that's right. In Sheffield, we'd had over seventy
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: cases of fraud and corruption within Sheffield City Council. Pamela Gordon,
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: who was the chief executive, was given a golden ticket
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: out of the place and in came Robert Kurzlake. He
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: granted amnesty to everyone, and the fraud and the corruption
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: simply continued with the misappropriation of funds, always from the
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: Labor Party down and right at community level. Despite the
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: promises at the time to devolve democracy to its lowest
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: practicable level and have community regeneration on a bottom up basis,
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: the exact opposite was happening.
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: Right, let's just join the two bits together. That you
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: come home and really unpleasant situation that your wife is
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: crying because she's essentially been bullied, and do you start
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: to investigate that? And I think you also say to her,
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: do you want me to start? Because once I start,
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: I'm not going to stop. Yes.
• 6:21
  Speaker 3: What then happens is it that as you investigate around her,
• 6:28
  Speaker 3: you then come to understand more about the money or
• 6:31
  Speaker 3: other connection.
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: How does it work?
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: I started asking the questions, who's paying for this, where's
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: the money coming from? Where is it going to? And
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: I didn't see any evidence of the money going to
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: where it was claimed it was going.
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: And was this money for sort of low I don't
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: mean this with disrespect, but the lower level community projects.
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: It was for community regeneration, which is much like what
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: we've seen in the last twenty four hours with those claims.
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: And instead of that money going the Labor Party was
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: coordinating the creation of a structure where they can control
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: from top right down to community level, and anyone who
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: gets in the way is but bullied or given false
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: accusations or otherwise inconvenienced. The idea is warning, you know,
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: go away, But as an auditor, you know you have
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: to keep asking the question what next? And show me?
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: So I kept asking the questions. I was asking a council.
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: I was asking of local organizations and I was always
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: getting the same noncommittal answers and more trouble.
• 8:05
  Speaker 4: That.
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: There are lots of lots of examples. I remember one
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: where the local Labor party chair of the area came
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: in to a public meeting fuming and he was banging
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: on a table and saying, I've heard rumors that people
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: are talking to each other. It's got to stop. Well,
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: the community center got rid of them eventually, and a
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: local area manager whose job it was on behalf of
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: the council to rest control of this group under to
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: put it under council control. They failed, so he got sacked.
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: The councilor for the area said he was sacked for
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: non delivery, which tells us what his job was. And
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: they couldn't control the community center and the groups that
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: were in it, so they destroyed everything. I then asked,
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: under freedom of information, show me the evidence that the
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: money that you've drawn down has benefited the people of
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: the area, and the answer came back no evidence held.
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: So I took that to ERDF European Regional Development Fund people.
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: Because that's where at that time it was European money
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: that was coming into Sheffield and to Plymouth.
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: Not only not only was it European money, it was
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: also match funded by government, So the amounts that we
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: see on paper you doubled. And I then went to
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: OLAF European Organization against Fraud, and they seemed to know
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: pretty much about what was going on the last thing
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: the government expected me to do was to go to
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: Brussels and give a presentation there. The outcome of that,
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: of course, was more bl leeing tactics and more threats.
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: You didn't actually go to the I went to Brussels,
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: to Brussels to present evidence. They seem to know much
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: about what was going on, but under Masterist the rules are,
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: if there's something naughty going on in a country, then
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: it's up to that country to sort it out. That's
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: an interesting little get out clause, isn't it, Because the
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: European Union can say, well, yes we know something's wrong,
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: but it's being dealt with in country, when in fact
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: nothing and it was absolute corruption. Am I right? It
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: was in this period that Neil Kinnock was head of
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: the European Council and ultimately he had to resign. It
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: was Neil Kinnock who said we have to be whiter
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: than white. Although other politicians borrowed that meme, it was
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: his wife I believe, who was head of OLAF European
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: organization didn't know that. And after by presentations and publicity,
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: the website holders of the material that put this up
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: were threatened to have their public license revoked if they
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: didn't take down my material, and a barrister from South
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: Wales which gave me a clues to the source, which
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: was mister Kinnock, we're threatening to sue me for libel defamation.
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: The usual things. Important points really for the audience, and
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: I can imagine a few people are thinking, really, you know,
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: really this is going on, Yes, it's going on. Is
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: the fact that when you did you you started probing
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: into what was going on. You've always been somebody that's
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: been very methodical euro System's analyst. I think that's the
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: great quession.
• 12:00
  Speaker 5: So you were used to having a look bit of
• 12:02
  Speaker 5: problem in a very methodical way. But you're also meticulous
• 12:06
  Speaker 5: in keeping records of conversations, letters and later on emails
• 12:12
  Speaker 5: and things.
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: I had to be careful there because I didn't want
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: to expose myself to litigation, so that when I made
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: the claims I made. It was solid. There was no
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: room for argument, and the only response you got from
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: the local authority, which was labor On, was rhetoric, insults,
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: public humiliations. But if they're doing that, that means you're
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: on the right track.
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: This is very, very interesting to me, and it was
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: at the time we first started talking, because once I
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: had realized money was being misappropriated in Plymouth, and this
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: was overwhelmingly regeneration money, and it was exactly the same system,
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: and it was European funding that was then matched by
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: various government funding pots. Once I started to say, well, actually,
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: these large sums ten million pounds in one case was
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: coming into the city and when you said where are
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: the accounts, well they clearly weren't any proper accounts. What
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: started to happen around me, well, aside from the used
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: hibernermic needles and things, that was pretty hard, what else
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: was going on was my name was being smeared in
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: the local business community. So, oh, that Brian Gerish is
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: a problem. He's you know, he's a nuisance, he's causing trouble.
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: So they went down that angle, and then later on
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: there was some not the threat of physical violence but
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: there was definitely a threat against my family, which ultimately
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: was pretty unpleasant for my wife, and I had come
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: to realize myself that as you dug deeper into the
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: what I regard as criminal activity, what happened was this
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: a sort of assault on you. Sometimes it came from
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: an individual, and sometimes it was counsel departments talking to
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: each other where you knew that they'd been discussing you
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: behind your back. And then eventually they put pressure on
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: my business colleague and suggested that if I Brian Gerrish
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: didn't stop doing what he was doing, he was going
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: to lose contracts, so they were going to damage his business.
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: So that's how the screws were put on me, and
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: your experience mirrors.
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: That absolutely, And for example, my wife was obviously traumatized
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: by the abuse that you were suffering, along with other
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: community volunteers as well, because it was anyone who was
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: perceived to be a potential threat were targeted. It was
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: ruthless and it was relentless. She went to Citizens Advice,
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: only to find out much later on that everything she
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: said to Citizen Advice was going straight back to the
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: local authority. So things were getting worse. But we had
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: to ride it through. And you're quite right to remember
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: that I did say to the life things are going
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: to get worse before they get better. But having started it,
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: if you want me.
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: To carry on, then we must see it through, Martin,
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: because you've done such fantastic work over the years which
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: we're going to be going to be exploring. And I
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: can say to you now, I'm just delighted that I
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: did actually get to know you, to meet you, because
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: at that time to be able to speak to you,
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: somebody knew, remote different city. To hear you describing the
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: same thing was a big boost because perhaps we can
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: look at the audience and explain the thing about the
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: physical attack. When stuff is done, which is physical, you
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: see it for what it is, but it's the psychological
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: attack that was being used in a way that you
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: knew people had been trained in it because there were
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: little techniques that they would use. One person did it
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: and you noticed it, and then somebody else used that
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: same It was as though they were being taught how
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: to interfere with people in a psychological way. Would it
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: would you agree with that?
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: I absolutely agree with that. When they replaced Pamela Anderson
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: with Robert Kerzwaik. It wasn't long before we realized that
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: this man was In my opinion, he was just a psychopath.
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: He enjoyed what he was doing and the harm that
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: it was creating, and he was ideal for the local
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: labor party. One MP was a minister and they remained
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: friends right up to his death. No matter what happens,
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: he seemed to turn a blind eye to the abuses. He,
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: despite the principles of Nolan, was quite happy to see
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: all the adverse publicity exactly the same as yours, trying
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: to destroy a person's career, destroy their credibility. On one occasion,
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: one meeting with a manager, I used the word we.
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: He went apoplectic with raid. We're using the isolation technique.
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: Now make him isolate, isolated, psychologically, break him down.
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: It make you fearful. And then the we demonstrates the
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: power of people working together. And this brings a smile.
• 18:14
  Speaker 4: To my face, because I interviewed a lady.
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: Earlier today and she ended her interview slot by saying, well,
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: of course, the most important thing to deal with this
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: problem is that people talk to each other and they
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: work together.
• 18:31
  Speaker 4: And you are giving a classic example here.
• 18:35
  Speaker 5: Why Because the bad guys who are up against are
• 18:39
  Speaker 5: terrified people who can successfully work in groups or teams.
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: Yes, for the corruption and the fraud to succeed, they
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: have to have people that they can control, and they
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: have to be able to control the flow of information
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: and where that has been lost, especially with South Yorkshire
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: and the previous PCC, he lost control of child sex
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: exploitation and very quickly he was ditched by the Labor
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: Party and replaced by second in command in the Council
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: at that time to David Blunkett, Allen Billings. And then
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: from then on I noticed that Alan Billings with his
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: team didn't answer any of my FOI questions properly. They
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: even fabricated an email using my name to say that
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: I'm making vexatious requests, which.
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: Is a very common one, isn't it. If the pressure
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: comes on.
• 19:45
  Speaker 4: They try and branding the extension.
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: Because they can then use that as an excuse for
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: not dealing with you in accordance with their own rules
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: as a public body. For example, they make their own
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: rules up as they go along. The question for you,
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: you were there in Sheffield, there's the unpleasant incidence with
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: your wife, and then you are discovering corruption around large
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: sums of money. Who is doing this? Is it Sheffield
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: City Council or is it the Labor Party? Both both.
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: What I did find was, although during one short period
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: the Lib Dems did run the council for a while,
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: they didn't really get their feet under the table enough.
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: And I have a sneaking feeling that some of those
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: Lib Dem counselors knew what was going on, but they
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: didn't want to stop the flow of money. Where who
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: was taking the orders? Well, in my opinion, the orders
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: were ultimately coming from Number ten locally mister Blunket, to
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: the local labor apparatts and then to his what I
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: regarded as his personal puppet, Bob Kurzlake, and so it
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: carried on like that.
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: Kursley was a chief executive of Sheffield City Council.
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: Yes, he was parachuted in after the seventy odd cases
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: of fraud and corruption in the Department of Deed were
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: outed by Price Waterhouse Coopers, the auditors at the time.
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: So Bob kurzlike sacked to the auditors, granted amnesty to
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: all the people that had been identified, and the frauds
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: went on.
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: Reputation management and sweep it under the carpet.
• 21:45
  Speaker 4: How much? What's the biggest sum that.
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: Was being effectively used fraudulently to try and give the audience,
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: you know, a scale for this. We're not talking about
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: a few hundred thousand pounds. What soize was this abuse?
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: The big number I saw was eight hundred and seventy million.
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: That's not to say all of that money was fraudulently used,
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: but that was a big pot that labor could use
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: to pursue their own agenda whilst claiming it's the communities.
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: The local party chairmen were also the chairmen of the
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: local community groups, which they called forums. They were also
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: being coordinated by a separate organization and I didn't know
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: anything about that organization at the time till I met you.
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: And that was what twenty years ago. Now, I was
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: flying blind to some extent, but I was trying to
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: trace what is the line of command? And eventually I
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: did get the documents. The one particular one which you
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: saw on a presentation had Blunkets signature on it. There
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: was another one from a senior civil servant who did
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: a like a three page destruction of me, and he
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: actually wrote in the introduction I have been asked to
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: write this by the minister. Obviously he knew it was
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: lies and he was covering himself.
• 23:22
  Speaker 4: So again.
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: Another case was with.
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: Pcos or blunkets blunkets babes as they were called, and
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: he came on to the to the area of Sheffield
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: where we live, using the local labor chairman and we
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: held a meeting which I chaired on behalf of the
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: local Tendants Association.
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: It was.
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: His historical meeting in that we had over one hundred
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: and twenty people turn up, which for small community meetings
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: had never been done before. And one of the questions
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: was can we use levee money tenants levee money to
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: pay for the for the blunkets.
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: Babes, police, community sports officers? Is that correct? As were
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: then and it was a unanimous note.
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: A few weeks later in the bright Side Ward where
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: they had a political meeting, it was minuted that they
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: held a public meeting in the south of the city
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: and had unanimous support and wasn't the first time where
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: the local Labor party had falsified minutes of meetings. On
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: one occasion I made an arrest of a chairperson of
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: a meeting who refused to tell the truth because he
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: was committing crime under citizens' powers of arrest. It was
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: an offense over five years. He was in the act
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: of doing it. I gave him three opportunities and he didn't,
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: so I arrested him. Needless to say, the council said,
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: all right, we'll cancel the minutes of the meeting. So
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: the police said, oh, no record, then no crime. And
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: guess what it carried on.
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: And this is the common theme, isn't it. This's collusion
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: between these people. I'll say a bit more about that
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: before it goes out of my head. I think it's
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: important for me to say when I was looking at
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: this ring of corruption in Plymouth and I had this
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: feeling there was something about the way it worked and
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: was coordinated that I couldn't put my finger on. And
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: then one of the community members kindly said to me, Brian,
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: I think you need to look at an organization called
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: Common Purpose. I had no idea what that was. Turned
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: out to be a charity, but when you dug into it,
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: it clearly had political agenda and it was very close
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: to the Labor Party because at one time the officer
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: of the Deputy Prime Minister which its name escapes me.
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: Alongside Blair. Common Purpose was sharing those offices. But this
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: was a charity that said it trained future leaders. And
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: I was to suddenly discover that all sorts of people
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: in the city, both in the city Council and the
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: police and the fire service and education were involved with
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: this charity, but they were not declared. It was not
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: being declared openly, and it was clear that these people
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: acted in a coordinated cabal together. So whatever people might
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: say about the Masonic movement, and that certainly exists in Plymouth,
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: here was a political charity that was recruiting and training
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: people in the police, in the Fire service, whatever, and
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: then those people were working together. They were acting in
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: fact with the Common Purpose. The irony is that a
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: Common Purpose is a crime at law, if my memory
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: serves me correctly, and we were to discover that, of course,
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: Common Purpose was operating in Sheffield as well.
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: Blunket ordered the commissioning of the Manpower Services commission a
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: massive building in the heart of Sheffield, and in there
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: there was an office for Common Purpose, which they had
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: free for seven years, again never declared. It did come
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: out eventually and then Common Purpose were quietly removed from
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: the building.
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: Right and this reminds me and I can't remember the
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: lady's name, but there was another lady in Sheffield who
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: was pretty critical in all of these we'll say dodgy
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: dealings going on, who was not only common purpose, but
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: I think she eventually was sort of promoted to Australia
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: if I remember.
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: Yes, now we're moving into the area now of child
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: sex exploitation. This particular person was the head of a
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: children's department in Rotherham, and when I looked into her
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: history before she moved to Sheffield, she'd lost a court
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: case in Birmingham for being a racist bigot, and then
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: she was perhaps miraculously transferred to Leeds where she set
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: about attempting to privatize child care services and education in
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: Leeds that failed miserably and cost millions, and she went
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: to Rotherham. There you got child sex exploitation. She successfully
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: kept the lid on that, but when it was exposed
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: guess what She was then made head of social services
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: in Sheffield. I think it was social services or child
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: welfare service. I'm not sure which, but she was a
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: director anyway, and I kept saying to her, are you
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: a member of Common Purpose, because I didn't know much
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: about Common Purpose at that time. What you told me
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: about Common Purpose earlier was new to me then. But
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: everything as you said earlier, hand in glove, it fitted.
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: And she kept refusing to tell me, and thevent surely
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: she did deny it. And then I said, oh, this
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: document here for Common Purpose. It is your signature on that,
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: isn't it. Well then the cat was out of the bag.
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: And this lady for all the cover ups of CSE
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: in Rotherham and Sheffield, by the way, is far worse
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: than Rotherham, but the legal departm which is more sophisticated,
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: and it's also closer to the bright Side constituency. She
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: was outed. I think the phrase was she's bravely decided
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: to further her career in an alternative direction.
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: And then she pops up in Australia.
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: Head of Social Services for children. So I wrote to
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: Australia and said do you know this lady and sent
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: them the full file and immediately there was uproar in
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: I think it was the Southwest State. They said no,
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: where was the due diligence And we didn't know. Well,
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: we did find out later that there was a Common
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: Purpose office in Australia and then she was ousted from
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: there and came back to England. The sad part about
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: it is academic. She was very good, but when she
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: was taken out of that environment into what we call
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: the real world, she didn't know which was ideal for
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: Common Purpose and the Labor Party.
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: I need to say something here because I've made this
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: point on many occasions. I have over twenty years been
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: very critical of Common Purpose because it's a charity. You
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: shouldn't be active politically as a charity, but they are.
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: So that's a problem to start off with. They're recruiting people,
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: they're training them in a particular way. But the important
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: thing to say is that many of the people who
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: Common Purpose approaches and draws in are completely unaware of
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: what's actually been of happening to them. So Common Purpose,
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: i use the term loosely, is reframing people to believe
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: in its future leader status and breaking out of the
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: silo and people in a city working together the police,
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: working with a chief executive, working with the head of
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: the hospital. But many people who are drawn into this
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: web have no idea what they're involved in. And because
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: some pretty sophisticated training. I'd say applied psychology is used
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: on them. They are not aware of what's actually been
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: done to them. It's only only been in more recent
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: years when the government has become completely open about it
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: using applied psychology in a political sense. So it's behavioral
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: insights team that we've now come to know from qualified,
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: for example, neuro linguistic programming practitioners, that if you have
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: the right group of people in the right room, you
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: can use psychology to change the way they think and behave.
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: That last statement is a quote from the office document
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: Mond Space. So we know and the government knows because
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: it's using it in a commercial political sense, that you
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: can apploy psychology young people, they become different people do.
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: Indeed, I did witness that Robert Kurzlake was a recruitment
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: officer as well for Common Purpose, which I spo. I
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: shouldn't be surprised because of the way Common Purpose was
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: so tightly integrated into the local political structures. And I
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: had one counselor from door she complained to me about
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: this almost bullying technique. I then uncovered documents for recruitment
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: to Common Purpose. They're not just taking on anyone who
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: just wants to be there, who was actually in that
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: document that they are selected for membership according to their
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: potential financial and political interest which serves Common Purpose agenda,
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: And that would nailed it for me really to say, no,
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: this organization isn't a proper charity.
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: We're describing rampant fraud and corruption in cities, and we're
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: describing the networks that help run this fraud and corruption,
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: and clearly Common Purpose people were involved in this. When
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: you had a Chief Constable on the advisory Board of
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: Common Purpose deciding who was going to be selected as
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: a Common Purpose graduate recruit to be trained as a graduate.
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: You've broken down all of the boundaries between organizations. So
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: the chief Constable uses is paid police time to sit
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: in with a political charity to not do police work,
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: to do the charities work. And all those documents are
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: still available or just say for the audience.
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: But it goes worse than that. They're still having those meetings,
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: except now they don't publish the minutes of the meetings anymore.
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: Their rules now are such that people aren't allowed to
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: discuss what was said at meetings, and people who are
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: not part of their organization are now no longer entitled
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: to have copies of minutes, and if you do ask the.
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: Information commissioner them say sorry, you can't have them.
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: I started to look as well, fraud and corruption, and
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: then I saw what was having at community level, and
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: it tracked all the way to government, central government, which
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: we'll come back to later, because we're seeing the same
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: again now. And I kept seeing the same pattern, not
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: with just fraud and corruption, but virtually everything that government,
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: both national and local, was involved with. It was the
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: same pattern throughout.
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: This is the what's the favorite phrase these days, systemic endemic.
• 36:26
  Speaker 4: And endemic totally out of control.
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: Or totally in control because it was control, it.
• 36:33
  Speaker 4: Was itself the control mechanism.
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: That was the conclusion I came to.
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: I think, for the most part that may be true.
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: But I saw some areas where it was literally out
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: of control, and people saw common purpose, or if they
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: weren't common purpose, saw what was going on, and they
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: used it to further their own agendas. One example is
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: a manager of social serch decided to take his retirement
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: money early and use that money to put in a
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: bid and were then given very lucrative contracts with the
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: same authority.
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: It could only be done by insider dealing.
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: And if you look at Common Purpose the way it
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: operates within companies, it is through insider dealing.
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: Yes, we also raised concerns about Common Purpose because we
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: became aware of links with really nasty stuff and abuse
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: of children. And then we had the classic case of
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: a man author the border called James Rennie who was charged,
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: found guilty and imprisoned of abuse of very young, very
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: young children. He'd been recruited by Common Purpose, so he
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: was part of their secret networks and Common Purpose that
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: was also targeted school young's, teenage school children, and you
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: had a ped default in that secret organization clearly up
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: to no good. No, what are the checks that you
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: have to do for the play new diligence for one thing?
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: And see see what they call CRB checks at that
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: at that time was going into.
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: Schools, No CRB checks, running secretive networks, pedofiles in their networks.
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: Absolutely no concern from the from the top management of
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: Common Purpose. I actually raised that with the local authority,
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: all the questions I raised with them, generally speaking, if
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: I wasn't using Freedom of Information Act, I was using
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: them at the public meetings, right, So that they were.
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: The questions went to me. One of the specific ones
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: was why.
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: Is it that you are sponsoring common purpose to take
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: toildren away for weekends or long weekends and not one
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: of those personnel has had any CRB checks. Okay, it's
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: the Disclosure Barring Service now, but it was called CRB.
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: Then the council couldn't answer.
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: And did they ever answer? Probably not know. They attacked me.
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: That's what they normally do. Your whole life changed, Martin,
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: once she got into this. I call it the game.
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: Sometimes we have to use this term to keep a
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: sense of balance. So you're in this. You're still watching
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: what's going on with the corruption in the council and
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: the money. When was it that the issue of child
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: exploitation of children? How did that come to you?
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: Really it was through third parties asking for help. They
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: were trying to whistle blow and they were being silenced.
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: They knew about me because they'd seen from the local
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: press how I was being denigrated and just generally insulted.
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: And I had.
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: Some involvement acting as a McKenzie friend for people in court.
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: It might have been a mother whose children were being abused,
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: for instance. So these people generally were from the minorities. Ok,
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: they were the defenseless people, so they could easily be
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: picked off.
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: Just to give us a little bit more on that,
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: people English not their first language, this sort of person.
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: They were from areas such as the Middle East or
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: North Africa, places like that, and the children were being
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: abused and they didn't know how or why or what
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: they could do about it. So eventually they came to
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: me and did ask for help, and that started piquing
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: my interest and thinking, what's going on here? This is
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: what we call a slam dunk for evidence. Why is
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: the council doing nothing? Why are the police doing nothing?
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: There's one just to break in here because we know
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: there's a lot of emotion out there at the moment
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: to do with grooming gangs. And we can come to
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: that subject again on its own. But what's really interesting
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: here this is members of the minority communities, many of
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: them immigrants themselves. They are doing moms and dads doing
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: the right thing.
• 41:42
  Speaker 4: Why they know that there's abuse.
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: Going on, they approach the services who should be there
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: to protect them.
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: The object of the exercise, for want of a better phrase,
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: was get the children stealing as far as I could see,
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: children were being abused, mothers were being accused of not
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: being good mothers. But they were the ones that's complaining
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: about the abuse, and they're saying help us. They weren't
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: getting help from the police. They weren't getting help from
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: the local authority. They were just not believed. But actually
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: I think they were believed, but neither the police nor
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: the council wanted to go there.
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of money to be made out of
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: abused children and children in care.
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, that's right. Not only that we don't want
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: the publicity, do we, because we've got reputation management to consider,
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: and political pragmatism and all these other non reasonable reasons
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: why they do nothing. I recall one incident where I
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: was with a mother whose children were being abused. I'd
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: taken in CDs to a meeting with senior people in
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: South Yorkshire Police at their headquarters. I gave them two
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: CDs with all the evidence on translations, transcriptions, photographs, videos,
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: everything was there. The police said thank you very much.
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: Six months later, I said, what's happening. Why haven't why
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: hasn't anyone be prosecuted? You had it all at the
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: meeting the answer came back, what meeting? There were eight
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: people in that room. This is bigger than just one
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: or two people.
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: And the audiences to pay attention just because if they
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: think that you are just making off the cuff remarks,
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: absolutely not.
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: We've seen the publicity, haven't they. It became a national
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: and it still is national embarrassment to government.
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: So throw a rock in the pond here. So the
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: police that you gave evidence to, were these Pakistani police
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: or they white police? Senior police, white seniors were given
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: evidence of the abuse of children, they covered it up.
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: That means they are part of the abuse ring, doesn't it,
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: I would imagine. So yeah, I would imagine so absolutely
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: So if you cover up the abuse of children, you're
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: part of it.
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: Is the case where two women were being three women
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: were being abused and they came to me for help.
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: They weren't sure they were being abused, but didn't know
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: why or anything else.
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: It would just being targeted. Came to me for help
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: and we found out what was going on. So I
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: started asking the right questions and it was a council
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: officer that was doing the abusing, and I reported it
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: and then I got a phone call from the local
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: police saying, if you don't stop doing what you're doing,
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: we will prosecute you for wasting police time. I did
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: what I usually do, put it out there, next thing
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: in Ogi's gone. Nevertheless, you've got and you get warned
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: off for the police. And I'm deliberately making this point.
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: We're not talking about Pakistani police. We're talking about white
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: senior policemen. Yes, yes, this is what I've encounter to
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: do with my journey over twenty years of working with
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: families where abuse has taken place. So I'm particularly challenging
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: the notion that all of the abuse in this country
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: comes from the grooming gangs, because the reality is the
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: grooming gangs could not have done what they did without
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: the connivance of.
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: Yes, I didn't know at the time how big a
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: picture it was. We now know it's literally over one
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: hundred thousand children being abused, but we didn't know that then.
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: When it started to get publicity, it started the snowball effect.
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: But I asked the question, what's the policy going on here?
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: Who said anything? As anybody whistleblown, And there were two
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: people who whistle blew, and they made it absolutely clear
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: the orders were coming from the Home Office, who was
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: in the Home Office during those formative years, who was
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: making those decisions that facilitated the abuse of tens of
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: thousands of children. We're back to the same people that
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: were in power between nineteen ninety eight to two thousand
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: and eight. Should you give us some name? In my opinion,
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: mister Blunket was one of them. But I am going
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: to give him a bit of an out because on
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: some of the documents I've got, rather than his own
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: hand written signature, it's a stamp. So I've got to
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: start thinking now, were some people in the Home Office
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: or someone above Blunket who gives the orders creating these
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: documents and putting blunkets stamp on without him knowing?
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: And of course he was blind. Of course he was blind.
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: So I have lots of personal dealings with mister Blunket
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: which are very unpleasant, but for specific items that we're
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: talking about now, I can't come straight out and accuse
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: him because there is a possibility that somebody was abusing
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: his name. And this is a very good point. There's
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: a good point lots of levels, not least because people
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: who are listening to this and or people who want
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: to be active they want.
• 47:58
  Speaker 4: To do something to so you have to be very careful.
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and if we're seeking justice, we have to be
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: sure that we are apploying, we're dealing with other people
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: in a just way.
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: Yes, his personal dealings with me have been quite offensive
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: and quite wrong. We don't need to go into those
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: except yes, they were on his orders. But you can't
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: make a generalization without the proof.
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: Certainly everything's coming from central government from at say two
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: thousand and one onwards, and that's when you had people
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: like Adele Gladden started whistleblowing and her career was destroyed,
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: and then there were other people coming forward and their
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: careers were destroyed and they were attacked. And one person
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: who did eventually win her case described what was happen
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: to her as worse than the mafia. And yes, having
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: worked in sicily, i'd say that was a pretty good description.
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: And they or the octopus, which you may be aware
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: of before this one leaves my mind. When we're just
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: talking about sheer and not a corruption, we've got to
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: give the courts and mentioned and I know that for
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: one case, a child protection case, you experienced a social
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: worker lying yes, I.
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: Was trying to help a mother who was at a
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: wits end. Her children were being abused, she was being
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: accused of being a rubbish mother, and English was not
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: her first language. So what we arranged for was whenever
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: she has a conversation with council officers, record the call.
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: And that's what she did. And then she called me
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: later she's just had a visit. So I went round
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: straight away, and she didn't know what was being said
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: in full detail or the repercussions of it. She got
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: a gist, but that night, having listened to it, I
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: stayed there and made a full transcription of the entire conversation, edited,
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: topped and tailed the recording as well, and put them
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: on a memory stick and explained to her exactly what
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: was being said. She was being told that the social
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: worker was going to lie in court and if that
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: lie was called out, she would fix it so that
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: the mother never sees the children again. So the following
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: afternoon I went again as a McKenzie friend. I went
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: into the court building. I'm not allowed into the family court,
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: but I did ask the clerk to the court to
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: give this recording to the barrister acting on behalf of
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: the mother. The barrister before lunch, asked the social worker,
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: have you ever threatened my client?
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: No?
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: Came the answer, Judge, I think you ought to listen
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: to this, and gave the judge the stick. After the
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: court hearing, sorry after lunch. After lunch, the judge asked
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: the social work to stand up and said, leave this room.
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: Think yourself lucky. I'm just expelling you.
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: She could have been She should have been sent there
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: because it was a threat, wasn't it. But she wasn't so.
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: And this, of course is a court in which there's
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: no jury and usually there's no press.
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: But it gets worse, Brian. After the whilst we won
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: won the battle, the barrister came out with a face
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: like thunder at me.
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: How dare you do that?
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: We'd already agreed the outcome of this hearing, how dare
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: you interfere? And then it that for me was the
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: moment that I realized that all this it was child stealing,
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: it was covering up, and it was not just one
• 52:33
  Speaker 2: or two men people. It was, as you said earlier, systemic.
• 52:39
  Speaker 2: It was the whole system. And what happened to the
• 52:42
  Speaker 2: woman who perjured herself in court, she was promoted so
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: she was put in a position where they she can be.
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, for people that don't understand it, these people get
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: promoted because they're very valuable, because they can do certain
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: job to a certain life, and because of the dirt
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: on them, as you say, they can be controlled. So
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: these are and you can follow certain individuals through the
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: political sphere, both from local level up to national political
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: and you see them create devastation and move on promoted,
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: devastation promoted. So people who are destroying, creating chaos are
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: the ones who are promoted to do more damage. In
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: some cases they are also graduates have come up indeed
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: in this part of your journey. So you're coming up
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: against these cases of child abuse or child protection cases,
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: and you've indicated a lot of these people are vulnerable
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: because they're migrants. English not the first language. But you
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: also mentioned to me, excuse me, you also mentioned me
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: on one occasion that they were targeting specific communities, I
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: think the Roman and Gypsies you mentioned.
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: Yes, I didn't follow that through as much as I
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: would have wished, but it just came through on the statistics.
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: I like to look at numbers sometimes, and.
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: They were overly represented in terms of abuse cases, and
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: it was claimed that the authorities couldn't do anything because
• 54:38
  Speaker 2: it was part of their culture and they didn't want
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: to upset community cohesion. Again, it's just played with politics.
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: A lot of the immigrants come in, they see labor,
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: they vote labor, so you have to protect the vote.
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: Ultimately at national level, it's a power yeah, and that's
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: part of what it was.
• 55:04
  Speaker 2: And yes, the Romans were being abuse by neglect really,
• 55:09
  Speaker 2: that's what it was about. An abuse by neglect is abuse.
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: Really you might as well be physically doing it yourself
• 55:17
  Speaker 2: as allowing it to carry on.
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: Right, How does this experience with child abuse lead through
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: to the next stage, which is where you're really challenging
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: authority in what it did and what it did not do,
• 55:34
  Speaker 1: what it covered up. And that's taken to you to
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: a serious place because you've eventually ended up with a
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: police in your home, police who are clearly very frightened
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: at what you know and what you've discovered. Tell us
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: about that journey from understanding that the child abuse is
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: going on to starting to see orchestra ready to cover
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: up at a very high level.
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: This is when I started liaising with other people who
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: were also trying their best to whistle blow, and I
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: was saw from them how they were targeted the same
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: as any other whistleblower, and how they were having their
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: lives destroyed. They were being isolated, they were being publicly denigrated.
• 56:27
  Speaker 2: And once we started talking to each other, we realized
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: it's not just individuals here who are doing the whistle blowing.
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: There's a community of whistleblowers here who have all been
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: trying for years and decades to try and.
• 56:42
  Speaker 1: Get the truth out.
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: Upon one of them or indeed, I mean a famous
• 56:48
  Speaker 2: one of course, is Maggie Oliver, which we all know about.
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: There are some who are not quite famous, and there
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: are I think the best of my knowledge, I think
• 56:59
  Speaker 2: it's about six court cases going through the courts higher
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: and higher trying to expose and disclose information about cover ups.
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: And they've included contempt of court, for instance, when they've
• 57:18
  Speaker 2: been ordered to disclose information but refuse to do so.
• 57:23
  Speaker 2: That's when I realized this is quite big. It's not
• 57:27
  Speaker 2: just me. There was a detective he whistled blew. His
• 57:35
  Speaker 2: career was cut short very quickly, and he made it
• 57:38
  Speaker 2: clear that the Home Offices issued an instruction do not
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: investigate and prosecute these groomers because these eleven year old
• 57:49
  Speaker 2: girls are making fully informed decisions about their lifestyles. Now
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: that was in two thousand and eight.
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: Only, in my opinion, the only person who could make
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: a statement like that is a pit of all. He
• 58:08
  Speaker 1: wasn't He was a whistleblower and he whistled blowed. Unfortunately
• 58:13
  Speaker 1: he took five years before he plucked up the courage
• 58:16
  Speaker 1: to do it, but he did it.
• 58:19
  Speaker 4: I'm coming on. That was a response to the whistleblower.
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: Let's just clarify that. That's why I said.
• 58:25
  Speaker 2: Another one, and to his credit, was Nazia Afseal. He
• 58:32
  Speaker 2: also said exactly the same. Now, these were total strangers
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: five years apart saying the same thing. Yvette Cooper, who
• 58:43
  Speaker 2: was the Home Office Minister at the time two thousand
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: and eight, which just happened to be the year that
• 58:49
  Speaker 2: Keir Starmer was appointed DPP, she protested and said this
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: makes me look bad. So Nazia, although he was telling
• 58:59
  Speaker 2: the truth, started to backtrack. I still think he's a
• 59:03
  Speaker 2: genuine guy, but was a bit politically naive.
• 59:08
  Speaker 1: But he was trying to get the information out about
• 59:12
  Speaker 1: the abuse.
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: Yes, and if you remember he went against the establishment
• 59:20
  Speaker 2: to prosecute the Rochdale.
• 59:23
  Speaker 1: Abuses, and that was another cut out of the bag,
• 59:28
  Speaker 1: so to speak. Escalated very quickly from then and you
• 59:34
  Speaker 1: are following through.
• 59:35
  Speaker 4: This, you're following this excavation through to understand it.
• 59:40
  Speaker 2: Yes, it's I keep tracing it back which ministers in
• 59:45
  Speaker 2: that period, Blair, Brown, Blunket, and there was another man
• 59:52
  Speaker 2: in government at that time, but I don't know if
• 59:55
  Speaker 2: he was involved or not, called Burnham, who was making
• 59:59
  Speaker 2: the those decisions at cabinet.
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: Level, decisions to keep the lid on what was what
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: was taking place, the abuses.
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 2: We keep seeing little pointers but not the proof because,
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 2: as you say, the lid is on there. We did
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 2: ask the PCC of Manchester and mister Burnham his department,
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 2: saying can we have your response from the predecessor, Your
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 2: predecessor when he wrote to Keir Starmer in ninety in
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 2: twenty twelve saying why didn't you prosecute Cyril Smith despite
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 2: an eighty page file of evidence? They never answered. So
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 2: I went to the Information Commissioner usual system. They they
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 2: were told allegedly that the document had been destroyed. So
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 2: I said, that's a breach of the law because you
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 2: can only destroy it is if you say it's of
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 2: no public interest and a document such as that is
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 2: of extreme public interest. But the Information Commissioner wouldn't move Burnham.
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 2: His department never produced that response.
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 1: Right Martin, what would you say the key documents are
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 1: that you've been chasing. That's that's caused you to be
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: such a a nuisance to the higher levels of government
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 1: because you've looked at the inquiries as well.
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 2: As I've looked at the child abuse inquiries. And I'm
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 2: not the only person, especially victims or survivors who've said
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 2: all the inquiries have been a whitewash because they haven't
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 2: released the documents and named the senior politicians who made
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 2: the decisions that facilitated years of child abuse. That decision
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 2: was made at the top of government and not one
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 2: of these inquiries, and there have been over a dozen
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 2: identified who made those decisions. With regards mister Burnham, I
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 2: think he's asked for three inquiries and one of the
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 2: people who was complained said this was a whitewash. It
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 2: was nothing more than a pr exercise.
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 1: And just to be very sure in present times, which
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 1: mister Burnham, wile you're talking.
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 2: About the prospective Prime minister. But he was in government
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 2: during the years when all this was being covered up,
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 2: and are we to believe that he knew nothing about
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 2: what was going on. I find that hard to believe.
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 1: So hard to believe, because in our conversation leading up
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 1: to now, we've been describing how the sheer corruption and
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 1: criminality has a network, and that network is engaged right
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 1: down to community level. So if we say that the
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 1: years of the corrupt state are pretty efficient.
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 2: Yes, I made a statement well over twenty years ago
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 2: now and I'll give it now. I'll try and remember
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 2: it the bout him. This government is corrupt. The corruption
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 2: is absolute, led from the top down and out of control,
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 2: being rotten to the core, and from the core everything
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 2: it touches, it taints, having neither the capacity nor inclination
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 2: to change outside intervention is indicated. And I've maintained that
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 2: everything we see from then is such like furthers that
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 2: that sentence, mister Blunkett wanted to uh prosecute me for
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 2: saying that under sedition laws, except.
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 1: That the sedition laws of now being repealed. But nobody
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: told David Blunket that my book in order to protect
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 1: people who are actually carrying out sedition. But yes, it's
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: very interesting that you you are accused of doing what
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: they are actually doing. That's the that's what the way
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 1: my mind interpret inter.
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 2: You are first accused of being and doing what they
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 2: in fact are and do themselves. Uh it's gatekeeping, isn't it.
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 2: And it's gaslighting.
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 1: So just push here. You are following along the trail
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 1: of cover up at very high level to do with
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 1: abuse of very large numbers of children. At what point
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 1: do you feel that it's sort of the switch flipped
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 1: and now you've got the police interested in you, not
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 1: just in a warning off. They are showing an interest
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 1: in that. They're becoming.
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 2: Malicious well apart from threatening to prosecute me for wasting
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 2: police time, which cost a senior policeman his career. It
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 2: was always ignore, lie and deny, and that's the same
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 2: with other authorities as well, not just the police.
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 1: It was so secos what I said earlier on that
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 1: you're meticulous with your records and the research you did,
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 1: So you're using that meticulous research and evidence to go
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 1: back in to challenge the state as to why it's
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 1: not protecting children, which it says is the first response.
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 2: It's not just children, it's other vulnerable people as well.
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 2: More recently, since the appointment of a due Chief Executive
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 2: in Sheffield City Council, I've been finding evidence of abuse
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 2: by neglect of vulnerable people, and I was finding insider dealing,
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 2: misappropriation of funds and things like that, and council officers
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 2: were blatantly lying. One example was I asked a question,
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 2: who's been releasing these documents highly sensitive in breach of
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 2: the Data Protection Act? The council said it was a
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 2: mistake and the third party has already been to the
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 2: Information Commissioner. So being an audist is the first question
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 2: you say is show me.
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 1: The lie.
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 2: The Nation Commission said they haven't been in contact with
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 2: us at all. There's been nothing from them. So the
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 2: orders were coming, I believe from the Chief Executive, who
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 2: is politically driven. And as for the woman who gave
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 2: that lie at a public meeting, blatant lie, nothing happened
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 2: and then she was given another job at a higher level.
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 2: So this tells us this isn't right. So we start
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 2: thinking about Reaper, which I wasn't which I was aware
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 2: of but didn't know it was playing apart. Then I
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 2: kept giving the Chief Executive.
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 1: You have to explain Reaper for people who might not know.
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 2: It's the regulation of information and I forget the Yeah
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 2: Act them. It gives them powers to just come and
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 2: take whatever they want, basically if they think it's a
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 2: crime against the state or something like that. But the
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 2: only person that I could find that was had the
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 2: authority to order Reaper other than the police was the
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 2: Chief Executive, who I had identified as being involved with
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 2: corruption within the local authority, who are themselves under political direction.
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 2: Then it was labor at the moment, it's it's hung
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 2: and Sheffield yes.
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 1: And the police force is what South Yorkshire Police.
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 2: Yes, And that's when I I realized then that this
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 2: is going to involve the police because the police have
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 2: to get involved. It's corruption and things started getting naughty.
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 2: Now I'm going to backtrack a little bit because I
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 2: didn't really you don't really get the full picture until
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 2: other bits of the jigsaw sort of come together, which
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 2: which might be there might be months or years in
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 2: between where ladies were being abused. It was all recorded
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 2: and the council wanted to close them down. There were
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 2: community centers around Sheffield where if they couldn't be controlled.
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 2: They were destroyed and this was another one of these.
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 2: So I recorded all that made out a full document package.
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 2: The judge at the lower level at the lower court
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 2: said we can't prove that the cases against them is disproved,
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 2: which I thought was a bit upside down, and he
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 2: wouldn't look at the four hundred plus document. So the
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 2: council won that. So we put in an appeal straight
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 2: away and said he hasn't The judge didn't go to
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 2: where the evidence was, so it went to a higher court.
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 2: The hearing was there on the appeal. He said, well,
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 2: the judge didn't actually break the law himself. However, I've
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 2: got here this document. So I'm telling the council now
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 2: you can either reconsider your decision or if you continue,
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 2: I'll be your blome to release this four hundred plus
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 2: page document. And the council walked away.
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 1: Still targeted the group and to call their assets from
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 1: if you will stay on the actions of the police.
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 1: Now you are pushing and pushing and pushing some senior authorities. Yeah,
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 1: so you're clearly creating pressure. When is it that the
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 1: police actually come for you?
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 2: This is now what a year ago? Now they came
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 2: to me shortly after one of the documents to the
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 2: council demonstration that the Chief Executive was breaking the law,
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 2: breaking the Freedom of Information Act, breaking the principles, the
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 2: Nolan principles as well.
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 1: And it would have been very embarrassing.
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 2: As chief Executive, that's her job to protect the reputation
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 2: of the leading party, which was Labor then. So I
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 2: think it's more than coincidence that shortly after the final
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 2: semi final documents that were went in then the police
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 2: took an interest. But the interesting part is they've had
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 2: those my evidence now for over a year. All the
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 2: fraud and corruption files are there. They should be crawling
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 2: all over them. They should have been coming back to
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 2: me and saying, where's your hard copy with the signature
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 2: of this on where's so and so? And they've done
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 2: police have done nothing apart from delay and delay and delay.
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 1: And now Martin, you correct me if I've got this wrong.
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 1: But you are not saying you handed all this material
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 1: to them. He took it. You took it because the
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 1: house and why did they say they were at your house?
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 2: They thought that I might have illegal material on my
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 2: h There was no evidence presented. They thought I might
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 2: have an illegal, illegal material on my electronic devices. So
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 2: they took my laptop, my phone, my backup computer, only
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 2: one of them, and the main computer.
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 1: They took them there and then, and I sense that
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 1: the accusations you might have illegal material on your your
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 1: equipment is a deliberate smear that you might be you
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 1: might have some dodgy material.
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 2: I'm not going to speculate because I don't can't prove that, but.
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 1: I'm going to suspected. I'm giving my opinion.
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 2: The more that time goes on, I keep getting delay
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 2: after delay. I put in my Freedom of Information Act
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 2: straight away and say what evidence have you got for this?
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 2: I was told I wasn't allowed to see it. Now
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 2: that was interesting because they interviewed me. So then under
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 2: data protection I said, give me all the evidence from
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 2: the data protection as well. If you're not going to
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 2: give it me from freedom of information, give it me
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 2: under data protection. If and one of the statements I
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 2: made was by taking this material, you are taking thousands
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 2: of files about child abuse, fraud, corruption, police corruption. And
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 2: I actually made the statement and signed it. This is
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 2: what you have done, and this is the effect you
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 2: are delaying this material being placed in the public domain.
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 2: I signed it, but when it came to a court case,
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 2: because I took it to court, that's that's what I do.
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 1: So after they raged you you took it to court.
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 2: I went through the normal channels freedom of information right,
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 2: Information Commissioner ignored, Data Protection refused, Commissioner ignored Court and
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 2: then this surprised me. We got to a judge in
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 2: court and he said, oh no, it got to court
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 2: and I spoke to the barrister outside for the police.
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 2: He said, we want to maintain the position not to
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 2: release any information. Well, okay, you're you're acting on half
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 2: of somebody else. You know that that's the position you've
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 2: been told to do. So my argument wasn't against him.
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 2: Then he went into court for over twenty minutes. Then
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 2: I was allowed in. I went in there and I'd
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 2: already given the judge a full document of saying why
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 2: they should be releasing this material because according to what
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 2: I'd seen, I'm being accused of unspecified charges by unnamed
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 2: people and in the absence of evidence.
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 1: Right, which is a regular thing. But the judge.
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 2: Agreed with South Yorkshire Police not to release it, including
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 2: the statement where I said, by taking this material this
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 2: is what you're doing. And the judge said.
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 1: Just reinforce this what you you're telling me. You're turning
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 1: out audience, the audience that's with us. That the police
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 1: raide your home, they take thousands of pages of evidence
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 1: of the cover up of the abuse. They attempt to well,
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 1: they insinuate that you've committed some crime which they don't
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 1: want to disclose. And then when you point out you've
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 1: now picked up the tar baby because you've got the
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 1: evidence of the cover and it's also showing corruption inside,
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 1: the police spits itself that is covered up.
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 2: At interview, this is where is the corruption? I said
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 2: in this building and at the morning, I remember the
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 2: two detectives that I was giving the interview to. They
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 2: were visibly shaking. The judge was clearly discomfort by what
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 2: he was having to say. He wasn't going to budget
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 2: and he wouldn't even let me have that document.
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 1: You've done a tremendous job, Martin, and much of it
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 1: has been on your own. You have had support from
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 1: time to time from other people, but you've been the
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 1: spearhead of this and you've, in my opinion, you've been
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 1: able to achieve so much and you've survived because you've
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 1: been so meticulous in the way you've researched and the
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 1: evidence you've kept. But your story is overwhelmingly of the
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 1: fact that the financial corruption is one thing, but that's money.
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 1: But the abuse of the children and the cover up
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 1: of the children, that's something completely different, because that is
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 1: the utter destruction of that child's life and the family
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 1: and communities, and that abuse of children is obviously known
• 1:19:01
  Speaker 1: by the establishment and they are prepared to cover up
• 1:19:04
  Speaker 1: that abuse. So the idea that we live in a
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 1: country where we've got these nasty grooming gangs, I'm going
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 1: to come back to this and they're doing their nasty
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 1: thing and we should be absolutely shocked at all these immigrants,
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 1: Pakistani's whatever they're to be called, are abusing the children. Yep,
• 1:19:26
  Speaker 1: they were abusing the children. But they are one small
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 1: part of a pond where the abuse of children is
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 1: condoned by the highest levels of government. And it brings
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 1: my mind back to it was I believe it was
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 1: mister Jack Straw who was Home Secretary, I think, And
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 1: there was one newspaper which I think was The Independent,
• 1:19:52
  Speaker 1: that many years ago you could read the puzzlement in
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 1: the journalists who he's trying to get a law through
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 1: which would make it unlawful for children in care who
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 1: were being abused to speak out, to speak to a journalist.
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 1: Why would you want to stop a child in care
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 1: who was being abused from speaking out.
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 2: I've got two cases there, historical cases. One case fully
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 2: documented and it actually went into the public domain. Was
• 1:20:28
  Speaker 2: a fifteen year old girl was being prosecuted for offending
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 2: public decency and called a prostitute for three years because
• 1:20:41
  Speaker 2: she was being abused. She was prosecuted for offending public
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 2: decency and accused her of being a prostitute. She was
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 2: forced to undergo examination, and the person who examined her
• 1:20:55
  Speaker 2: gave evidence to court that she was well used. That's
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 2: a quote, and that's in the public domain as well.
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, this is horrific and disgusting stuff. But we are
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 1: only going to deal with it properly when people understand
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 1: that it's no good looking at a few gangs who
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 1: are up to no good. We've got to start realizing
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 1: that the corruption is to the very highest level. Yes,
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 1: only the political power, but it's also the establishment as well.
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 1: Because if we look in the direction of Epstein and Andrew
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 1: we can see, we can see the spread of it.
• 1:21:36
  Speaker 1: But you've now taken us on that full journey from
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 1: coming home to your wife crying because she's been abused
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 1: for the system, to the fact that that takes you
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 1: through the money corruption all the way to the real issue,
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 1: which is the abusage.
• 1:21:54
  Speaker 2: For me, it's all wrong, okay, whether it be money, power,
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 2: sex abuse, whatever. I lumped them all together and say
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 2: it's systemic, it's endemic, And I think what happened was
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 2: it was deliberately allowed to get out of control, and
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 2: then once the publicity started, people powerful people started backtracking.
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I certainly believe the country is being deliberately
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 1: destroyed at the moment. And one of the ways you
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 1: destroy countries you break down its institutions. Police don't function properly,
• 1:22:35
  Speaker 1: the courts don't function properly, and then you're going into
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 1: lawless territory. But I mean, not that many years ago
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 1: we had the fraud around the Pedophile Information Exchange and
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 1: Pedophiles Pedophile Action for Liberty, where we had people in
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 1: government closely alongside, if not supporting, those pro pedophile organizations.
• 1:23:03
  Speaker 1: HH comes to mind. Yes, this was reported in the press.
• 1:23:10
  Speaker 1: Now a lot of details did come out in the press,
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 1: and a lot of apologies were made and backtracking, But nevertheless,
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 1: when you then look at how the abuse is continued,
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 1: it does seem remarkable.
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 2: The mindset has become institutionalized. It's become its own monster,
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 2: hasn't it.
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 1: Yes, And then then we have.
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 4: The British state pointing a finger at.
• 1:23:37
  Speaker 1: The Russians and saying, well, of course, those terrible Russians
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 1: have been stealing children from you know, for abuse out
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 1: of Ukraine, when actually the evidence that is now coming
• 1:23:50
  Speaker 1: in my direction is that the children are being stolen
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 1: out of Ukraine and not going east, they're going west.
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 2: May well be the case. I think what we're seeing
• 1:24:01
  Speaker 2: now as well is deliberately pointing us in different directions
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 2: rather than keeping focused on the core issues at home.
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 2: It's distraction and diversion.
• 1:24:15
  Speaker 1: I think that's very important. I'm going to thank you
• 1:24:20
  Speaker 1: for all the work you did, and I'm also going
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 1: to thank you for bothering to phone me all those
• 1:24:25
  Speaker 1: years ago, because that people have often said to me, Brian,
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 1: when all this stuff was happening around you and you're
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 1: seeing the fraud and corruption and the threats are coming in,
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 1: did you ever feel that it was frightening, and I didn't.
• 1:24:43
  Speaker 1: I actually found it more weird because I'd never experienced
• 1:24:48
  Speaker 1: what I happened before. But having other people around who
• 1:24:51
  Speaker 1: could see it was a very big support issue because a.
• 1:24:56
  Speaker 4: Lot of this, as we mentioned earlier.
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 1: Do with psychology to make you even doubt yourself that
• 1:25:04
  Speaker 1: what you see is real, that it's happening.
• 1:25:09
  Speaker 2: When as someone I was helping was being abused, I
• 1:25:15
  Speaker 2: went with that person to a council officer and I'll
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 2: try to remember what the officer said, We are not
• 1:25:27
  Speaker 2: so sure that what you say you thought you heard
• 1:25:32
  Speaker 2: was what we wanted you to understand. Now that completely
• 1:25:37
  Speaker 2: bamboozled me at the time. I now know that it
• 1:25:40
  Speaker 2: was just saying get lost, We're not going to do
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 2: anything about it.
• 1:25:45
  Speaker 1: Abusive psychology is a key part of this, and of course,
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 1: people who understand issues around the abuse of children, the
• 1:25:54
  Speaker 1: use of psychology to groom the child, to make the
• 1:26:00
  Speaker 1: the child fearful of telling other people that cover up
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 1: malicious supplied psychology is a key part of it.
• 1:26:08
  Speaker 2: That that I would say, yes, it's it's it's organized,
• 1:26:13
  Speaker 2: it's coordinated, and it's not just the CS. It's anywhere
• 1:26:18
  Speaker 2: there's a whistleblower, they will immediately target them, they will
• 1:26:22
  Speaker 2: isolate them, they will apply psychological techniques if you can
• 1:26:28
  Speaker 2: to contain them. The people that they use, they've been
• 1:26:33
  Speaker 2: mind framed so they don't think they're doing anything wrong.
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 2: Oh it's for the greater good that we shut this
• 1:26:39
  Speaker 2: person up. I think that's how they how they're playing,
• 1:26:44
  Speaker 2: and all that does really is make things worse in
• 1:26:47
  Speaker 2: the long run. But politicians can only think to the
• 1:26:52
  Speaker 2: next election, right, So that's that's their horizon, the next election,
• 1:26:57
  Speaker 2: never beyond, so eventually.
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 1: Think it will catch up. It's such a pity that
• 1:27:03
  Speaker 1: so many people are being heard and have been heard,
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 1: and probably will be heard before all this gets sorted
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 1: dot with. Thank you for that, Martin. Let's end on
• 1:27:16
  Speaker 1: the positive and it's over to you. But we're going
• 1:27:21
  Speaker 1: to be talking to several hundred thousand people. What would
• 1:27:25
  Speaker 1: you like to see them do you can talk to them,
• 1:27:28
  Speaker 1: and what would you like to see people do to
• 1:27:31
  Speaker 1: not just sit there and reel at what you've just
• 1:27:34
  Speaker 1: told them, But what would you like to see them
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 1: do to make a real difference.
• 1:27:41
  Speaker 2: All I can think of is come out together as
• 1:27:47
  Speaker 2: one voice. If you can, because one thing that no
• 1:27:52
  Speaker 2: government can withstand anywhere on the globe is if when
• 1:27:56
  Speaker 2: the people say no, where that haapens, the government is
• 1:28:01
  Speaker 2: forced to act. Very often governments fall and things get
• 1:28:06
  Speaker 2: worse before they get better. But it's a process that
• 1:28:09
  Speaker 2: you have to go through, and I think that the
• 1:28:13
  Speaker 2: people themselves have to realize I can make a difference.
• 1:28:19
  Speaker 2: My small voice can be part of a much bigger voice.
• 1:28:24
  Speaker 1: It's only when we come together to say we're not
• 1:28:26
  Speaker 1: tolerating this anymore. Have had.
• 1:28:31
  Speaker 2: All these independent inquiries which never were independent, and the
• 1:28:36
  Speaker 2: outcome of those inquiries was decided before the inquiry even started.
• 1:28:42
  Speaker 2: Look at the present one, the gang rape inquiry that's
• 1:28:47
  Speaker 2: already being fettered. Information requests were put into them saying
• 1:28:56
  Speaker 2: are you going to determine who gave those political disc
• 1:29:00
  Speaker 2: decisions that allowed all this to happen. They refused to answer,
• 1:29:05
  Speaker 2: and the Information Commissioner refused to make them answer. Now
• 1:29:09
  Speaker 2: you will remember in Parliament what did they say. No
• 1:29:13
  Speaker 2: stone will be left unturned, there will be no hiding place.
• 1:29:18
  Speaker 2: We will be passed into law that if you don't.
• 1:29:21
  Speaker 1: Tell what you know, you will be prosecuted.
• 1:29:23
  Speaker 2: So I say, as I wanted to show me. So
• 1:29:27
  Speaker 2: that's the first question, and it fell on all three
• 1:29:29
  Speaker 2: straight away.
• 1:29:30
  Speaker 1: People or other people are saying that the inquire is
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 1: good to be a waste of space. Okay, now, probably
• 1:29:36
  Speaker 1: these papers which are just lift up, you know, to
• 1:29:40
  Speaker 1: show there's quite a lot to hear. This is part
• 1:29:42
  Speaker 1: of your story which I printed off for a couple
• 1:29:45
  Speaker 1: of days ago just to refresh myself on some of it.
• 1:29:49
  Speaker 1: But of course you're dealing with thousands of pages of evidence.
• 1:29:53
  Speaker 1: I'd like to if the UK can assist in these
• 1:30:00
  Speaker 1: and dissemination of the evidence that you've got, because I mean,
• 1:30:05
  Speaker 1: there's some of the emails that you've sent our masterpieces,
• 1:30:09
  Speaker 1: as are the responses as the establishment tries to cover up.
• 1:30:13
  Speaker 1: But I think it's brilliant if we can do our
• 1:30:16
  Speaker 1: bit to help you push this up there. And can
• 1:30:20
  Speaker 1: I just end by saying that what is brilliant about
• 1:30:24
  Speaker 1: what you've done is you never gave up. And you
• 1:30:28
  Speaker 1: probably didn't imagine that twenty years later you'd be sat
• 1:30:32
  Speaker 1: here talking to me and we're.
• 1:30:35
  Speaker 4: Really liftings, but you kept going.
• 1:30:38
  Speaker 1: And that's really what's made the difference. So thank you,
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 1: thank you, thank you.