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Meat Sacrificed to Idols · Walk Talk: Faith in Motion

• Randy: So I have a confession to make. I've been eating meat sacrificed to idols. But I hope you don't judge me for that. So we're gonna get into that today and a whole lot more on this episode of the walk talk. All right, brother. Obviously I'm just joking. I haven't been eating meat sacrificed to idols, but I think that's a a good place for us to start in terms of the conversation we're gonna have today. What do you think? Pj Verdin: Okay. All right. I I'm I'm up for it. But I was gonna say, how do you know it hasn't been sacrificed to idols, man? We Randy: Well, that's that's a good point, actually. I really honestly don't know. and let's I think let's just jump into the word right off the bat, and then we could talk about whether or not we should even care. How about that? Pj Verdin: Sounds good. Randy: All right. So here, let me let me go ahead and pull up First Corinthians chapter eight, and then I'll just start by reading through the first few verses here. So it says, starting at verse one now concerning food sacrificed to idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge makes one's conceited, but love edifies people. If anyone thinks that he knows anything, he has not yet known as he ought to know, but if anyone loves God, he is known by him. And Pj Verdin: Come on. Randy: then we get into it. Therefore, concerning the eating of food sacrificed to idols, we know that an idol is nothing at all in the world, and that there is no God but one. For even if there are so called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed. There are many gods and many lords, yet for us there is only one God, the Father, from whom all things and we exist for Him, and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom all things by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. However, not all people have this knowledge, but some being accustomed to the idol until now eat food as if it were sacrificed to an idol, and their conscience being weak is defiled. Now food will not bring us close to God. We are neither the worse if we do not eat or the better if we do eat. But take care that this freedom of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. For if someone sees you, the one who has knowledge dining and in in an idol's temple, will his conscience, if he is weak, not be strengthened to eat things sacrificed to idols? For through your knowledge, the one who is weak is ruined, the brother or sister for whose sake Christ died. And so by sinning against the brothers and sisters and wounding their conscience, when it is weak, you sin against Christ. Therefore if food causes my brother to sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I may not cause my brother to sin. That's a lot to unpack there. Pj Verdin: yeah, that's that's a a ton. But I Randy: Now when I read this, I take it more than just eating meat. But what do you think? Pj Verdin: Yeah, absolutely. I mean this is this is basically, you know, the the the part of the Bible that that gets highlighted whenever you're having discussions about, you know, what can we and can we not do, right? What is permissible and and and how how should we handle th these situations, man? whenever you're you're Randy: Mm-hmm. Pj Verdin: trying to, you know, just kind of figure these things out. Yeah, I I I've heard this in that context. but yeah, I think it's applicable to basically anything. So yeah. Randy: So, so when we say anything, let's talk about some of those things that it might be applied to. So, when I read these verses, what I'm seeing is, you know, this is Paul writing to the Corinthians, and he's saying, Look, we know there's only one God. We know that this food is sacrificed to an idol, and an idol is nothing. Therefore, because we have this knowledge that all things come from God, we're going to eat it if we want to eat it, and we're not going to even feel bad about it. However, Because love is number one and we should do things out of love. If me eating this food is in front of someone who don't have this understanding causes them to stumble, I'm not gonna even eat it. Right? That's kind of Pj Verdin: Right. Randy: how I interpret it. And that's that's in that's in Randy's words. Wait, did it did I get that? You think I got that close enough? Pj Verdin: Yeah, yeah, no. Yeah, I I would I would I would agree with that. And and and yeah, so I mean i he he picks, you know, food sacrificed to idols because that was their big thing at the time. You know what I mean? That's stuff that we that they they were dealing with and it was the most ready comparison that he can make. So for us today, I know the things that that you hear obviously you know, are are your your big buzzwords more like, you know, towards alcohol. or or tobacco or you know, whatever. But and and and I get it because, you know, from a religious perspective of just being like, well this sounds like it it'd be in line. And you know, people I I think that they're they're all they're quick to get on board with those like, yeah, you shouldn't drink, you shouldn't smoke, you shouldn't do whatever, the X, Y, and Z. But then they don't realize that that that could apply to just about anything, right? like you could say, hey, hey, listen, ma man, like I I'm a diabetic, but I have a sweet tooth. Like if you're eating this ice cream in front of me, it should be the same, right? If you're causing me to basically Randy: It should be. Pj Verdin: stumble, but it's not viewed like that because we we like to have a more religious mentality. Randy: We s yeah, and we select certain things and call them good or call them bad. And you're right, like Pj Verdin: Hundred percent. Right. Randy: alcohol might be one of those things that gets selected. Smoking might be one of those things that gets selected. There might be a whole list of things that get selected, but then other things that could be just as equally bad, like overeating or just being lazy, or just, you know, like Pj Verdin: Right. Right. Randy: you said, eating something very sugary in front of a person who can't have that sort of stuff. Like there's a lot of things that I think could fall into this category. But at the end of the day, what I hear Paul saying is like, you know, he's not giving a commandment and saying, you know, this is blanket for everybody, do this or don't do this. He's saying, no, look, man, that's kind of between you and God and your walk with God and your understanding as to whether it's okay. But even though you have that kind of you know freedom, keep in mind your brother. Pj Verdin: Be loving. Yeah. Love your brother enough to be like, man. And look that that's the way I I'll take it. And and and so I I will I will say this. I personally don't feel like there's anything wrong with drinking alcohol. Personally. That's just my opinion. But let me just tell you that well, there's a lot of right. A Randy: Now there's a lot of Christians who would disagree with you. Whole denominations that would disagree with that. Pj Verdin: hundred a hundred percent. And I I get that. And we'll we'll unpack that a little bit more in in a minute. But so I I would just say just As a blanket statement, I would say in my personal opinion, I don't think that there's anything wrong with a Christian or anyone drinking alcohol. However, would I drink alcohol in front of somebody who used to be an alcoholic who has now turned from that and and dedicated their life to Christ? No, because I do not want to be the reason why maybe, you know, they lose that battle to to to falling back into that that old cycle. So I mean there there's you know I think that there's there's, you know, reasons, right or wrong ways to handle just about anything. It it doesn't have to be something big like alcohol. It it it it you know, there there's a you can basically insert just about anything in here and and and it's applicable. and then, you know, so I guess before we we move on too much, I guess to to kind of contrast what what Paul was saying there to to the Corinthians, you know, it's like what what I What I keep going back to, and I know we talked about this you know, not too long ago, is is I fall back into Colossians chapter two, which if you want, I'll I'll share that just to to kind of refresh everybody's mind. Randy: Sure. Yeah. Pj Verdin: Mm. And so this is this is Sharon off of Bible Hub. this is in the the New King James Version. And you know, I'll I'll just go ahead and and kind of skip down basically. I mean, this whole chapter, I encourage everybody to go and read it in its entirety, but just to kind of get to the the point, which is this is all really good stuff. But starting in verse 20, it says, you know, no, let me jump up to to 16. So let no one judge you in food or in drink or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbath, which are a shadow of things to come, but the sub but the substance is of Christ. Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding in those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by a fleshly mind, and not holding fast to the head. From whom all the body nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments grows with the increase that is from God. Therefore, if you have died with Christ from basic principles of the world, which we have, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations? Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle, which all concerns things which perish with using according to the commandments and doctrines of men. Again, this is a distinguished this is not the the The doctrine of God, the gospel. This is the doctrines Randy: Mm-hmm. Pj Verdin: of men that are telling you don't do these things. But why are you doing it? Okay. So these indeed Randy: Right. Right. Pj Verdin: have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, which is false humility and neglect the body, but are no but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh. I mean, that that to me it is is such a a str powerful statement, man, because I see that happen all the time. We Randy: Hundred percent. And what was that reference again? What what what chapter was that? Colossus two, okay. Pj Verdin: Colossians chapter two. And that started yeah. So I mean dude, that whole that whole thing. I mean it's basically Paul is letting them know, like, listen, you know what? Stop a hundred percent. Randy: It it sounds similar to what he's saying to the Corinthians, just without getting as specific about the the meat. Pj Verdin: Yeah, and I feel like he has to clear it up over and over with these different churches. And and and what what I what I hear is is an echoing of like what we've talked about before, where Jesus is saying, hey, look, you know what? Beware of this doctrine that these Pharisees are trying to teach y'all. I know that they're the most learned people in your culture, and and I know that they know the the the Torah. I know that I know, but beware. And then you hear Paul saying, Hey, listen. Y'all received the gospel. Stop worrying about the doctrines of men, about what people are coming up with. Like y'all, I gave y'all the gospel. You know what I mean? I gave it to y'all. Y'all know the truth. Stop letting other people tell you according to how they think and they feel something different. Stop trying to hold yourself to the standard of men whenever you got the word of God. Like and so I just see that over and over. Randy: Well I think they yeah, and I think that goes back to what we talked about previously about God's original design for mankind. He didn't design us to follow this very long list of rules. That's not what he you know what he did when he created, you know, Adam and Eve and he put them in the garden, he didn't say, you know, Adam, here's Eve, you know, Eve, here's your list of rules, right? Like you guys go follow these list of rules. He's no, I mean he gave them one rule. And you know, my understanding, what I truly believe, is that he intended to guide them with his Holy Spirit in in in all truth and and to show them what to do and not to do by you know that his relationship with them, not by a list of rules. And I think that's you know what Jesus is trying to do with us today. And so Paul, like you said, he has to keep reminding these churches, guys. Like, we got all these rules, we got all these, all this religion. And you don't need to keep going back to that. Now you have the Holy Spirit. Let the Holy Spirit does do what the Holy Spirit was intended to do, which is to guide you in all truth and to, you know, remind you of the things that Jesus taught us and to, you know, work out that salvation in you know, through love. Pj Verdin: Right. Well, and and it's funny, man, because you you think about it, right? How often do do believers try to to fill the role of the Holy Spirit and telling other believers, like, hey man, I you shouldn't be doing that. You shouldn't be doing that. Like, man, listen, I have the the the spirit of God living inside of me, guiding my steps and and directing me and and you know, r helping renew my mind. Like I I I I got this, but it's like, but and look, and I'm not I'm not advocating For drinking necessarily. Like I said, I don't I don't believe that it's a problem. But the the the thing is this whenever you just make blanket statements, I I understand it's probably coming from a good place because I'm sure most people have seen the negative side effects of of anybody who who would drink alcohol. But but j d even though that may be the case, you can't start just throwing your personal opinions in in into scripture and trying to get other people to follow it. Because one of the first things, and Randy: Yeah. Pj Verdin: again, like I said, this is not me. advocating for for drinking alcohol or not or whatever. But I'm gonna say if we're gonna be biblically accurate, then then let's let's let that be the foundation. And so what I've you know people will say you you should never drink alcohol and I'll say okay yeah that through it through a religious lens or mind frame that sounds like that that'd probably be a good idea. Well then why was Jesus's first miracle to turn water into wine? Is he trying to set people up for failure? No. Randy: Exactly. What in and there's no Yeah. And there's no real good answer to that. I mean, I've heard Pj Verdin: No. Randy: people say, well, the water back in the day wasn't that clean, blah, blah, blah. So they drink wine for their st okay, great. And what's different today then? Like, you know what I mean? Seriously. Like, you know, the I I'm not buying any of those excuses about the water's Pj Verdin: Well Randy: cleanliness and wine. No, it wine is wine. People were s Pj Verdin: Right. Randy: were getting drunk off of wine in Jesus' day, just like people Pj Verdin: Moses Yep. Randy: are doing today. Pj Verdin: Right, right. Moses got drunk off the I know that's a little bit of a separation, but Randy: Noah. Pj Verdin: yeah, yeah, Noah. Sorry. Yeah Randy: You thinking of Noah after the flood? Pj Verdin: yeah, yeah. Noah, sorry. But anyways, but but so just to right. A drunk. Randy: And it was wrong for him to get drunk. And that's why the Bible says not to be drunk. The Bible makes it clear that we shouldn't be drunk, but we should be full of the spirit. But that's different than just drinking, period. Pj Verdin: Correct. And so I and I would I would agree a hundred percent. And and I believe why the Bible warns about, you know, us not being drunkards or getting drunk is because whenever we are intoxicated and not in our right mind, it's more likely to lead us to do something that soberly we would not do. And so it's basically just a Randy: Yeah. Pj Verdin: a a a it's it's a care it's not a it's not a rule like you better not get drunk as much as it's like, man, listen, you know all the things that could happen to you. if you get drunk. It's it's more of a a in my opinion, it it feels like a more of like a loving like, hey look, I just don't you know, it's like not wanting your kids to drink and drive. It's it's not saying, you know, I I I I condemn whatever. It's just it's a it's a I feel like it comes from a loving place is what I'm saying. Randy: Yeah, I agree. And it's interesting that, you know, I I forget where it's at, but the Bible says not to be, you know, drunk, but to be full of the Holy Spirit. And and it's it's it's interesting to me that it makes that comparison when alcohol is often called spirits, right? And there is this whole, you know, other conversation we could be having about whether drinking alcohol opens you up to, you know, any sort of, you know, I don't know, it demonic influence or outside influence. Why is it called spirits? I don't know. but I Pj Verdin: P people bring that up all the time. Yeah. Randy: sure, sure, people do. And and it but I do think it's interesting that the Bible itself, you know, kind of juxtaposes the two of them and says, like, don't be dr full, you know, don't be drunk, don't be subject to drunkenness, but be full of the spirit. but but at the end of the day, you know, I I I tend to fall more on your side. Like I'm a person who does drink moderately, very moderately. Usually if I do, I don't have more than one or two at a time. and it's you know maybe, maybe once a week, sometimes none a week. but I don't judge anyone else for their drinking. I don't, you know, think it's wrong that I drink. But I also think that, you know, like you mentioned earlier, there are people who I won't drink in front of. you know, I won't say any names, but someone very close to me who spins, you know, come when they come to visit, when they come to town to visit, a lot of times we'll either you know, spend the night at my house or, you know, at least they're at my house a lot and I won't drink in front of them because I know that alcohol is something that they've struggled with. And so I won't do it. And and it's not just them, but you know, anyone who I know that's in that same, you know, I mean I've had people I've told I've talked to people and said, hey, you know, you want to get together, you know, for coffee or for beers. And they've said, well, you know, I don't drink beer, but you know, I'm happy to meet you somewhere and you know, and I'll just drink a soda. And my response is no, then let's drink coffee then. Let's get together and get coffee. Like it's not a big deal to me because I want to make sure that, you know, whether you're someone who just doesn't drink because you do think it's morally wrong, you don't drink because you, you know, maybe grew up in a in an abusive alcoholic home, or maybe you don't drink because you struggle with alcohol and you don't want to be tempted. I don't want to be in a position where I am, you know, negatively impacting you. And I think that's Pj Verdin: Hundred percent. Randy: the heart of what Paul's saying here. Pj Verdin: Yeah, I I I I would agree with that. And and you know, it it it's funny. so a few things come to mind. So I I think that, you know, the reason why most people drink, who who do, you know, is is to, you know, kind of maybe relax, right? Or or or find a little bit of peace or or whatever. And and so I think that that's why it does say that in the Bible where it's like, man, you know, basically g be full of the spirit. Like the the the spirit should should be what relaxes you it comforts you and and in and helps you find that that peace. Randy: That's good point. Pj Verdin: but but I I do think it it's kind of interesting and maybe even worth noting especially you know you you started off with with Paul writing to the the Corinthians and you know Corinth was was crazy. And and so Randy: Mm-hmm. Pj Verdin: I I I remember you know the verse that Randy: Like the Las Vegas of of of its day, right? Pj Verdin: right right hundred percent so I I I you know, remember the verse that it's in Corinthians where that everybody uses to basically, you know, they take remembering the Lord's Supper and and and thinking that man we gotta be we gotta reflect on our own track record and do all that stuff. but but the funny thing is is you know, whenever you you get down to what was actually going on, it is back in those days, whenever Whenever they took communion, like it wasn't just a little shot glass and and a little bread, like they had a full-on feast. Okay. With yeah, yeah, yeah, that they they ate like they they drank, Randy: Mm-hmm. Yeah, they were like having like a dinner or a lunch or something. Yeah. Like a full meal. Pj Verdin: yeah, they they drank wine and they ate ate food. And so Paul is writing to the Corinthians because what people started doing, especially the wealthier people, is they would show up and drink enough wine to get drunk and they would eat all the food. And whenever like the poorer people who would this would probably be their only meal, Randy: Right. Pj Verdin: you know, would show up, there was no more food left. And and the the the the richer people were already drunk on all the wine, acting a fool. And so Paul is writing them to say, hey, hold up. Y'all y'all need to reflect on how y'all are carrying out this process. This is supposed to be in remembrance of what Jesus did. But but mind you, in in this correction, if you go find this in this correction, like he he He basically says, Y'all get back to remembering this the way it needs to. And if if you know, if you need to, eat at home, drink at home. He's Randy: Yeah. Pj Verdin: he's not sitting here saying, you know what? y'all are out of the faith because y'all are getting drunk while y'all are supposed to be taking communion, remembering what Jesus did for us. You know what I mean? You don't Randy: Right. Pj Verdin: never hear that language. So I mean, it it and and it's not to say that it's it's he's condoning it because he does address it like, man, y'all need to s basically, you know, re Look at w the way you are doing these things and and and do better. But he's you know I'm sorry. Randy: Yeah. So so I do want to go back to Corinthians again one more time because later on, so we read I think it was in Corinthians one, right? But in Corinthians ten, so Paul comes back again and and mentions the the idols. And so I just think it's very interesting that earlier he says, Look, we know that idols are nothing, right? And you're eating the meat sacrificed to idols, and idols are nothing. But look what he says now. So starting in 10 chapter chapter 10 verse 14, he says, flee from I I idolatry, my beloved. I speak as to wise people. You then judge what I say. Is the cup of blessing which we which we bless not a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is the bread which we break not a sharing in the body of Christ? Since there is one loaf, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf. and then he starts talking about Israel, and he says, look at the people of Israel are those who eat the sacrifices, not partners in the altar. What do I mean? The food sacrificed to that food sacrifice to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, but I say that things which Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons. They sacrifice Pj Verdin: Mm. Randy: to demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake at the table of the Lord. And the table of demons, or do we provoke the Lord to to jealousy? We are not stronger than he, are we? I okay, so I'll stop right there, but I do want to read a little bit more. But I think that's very interesting that earlier he's like, hey, if it's sacrifice to idols, it's nothing. Idols are nothing. But now he's he may he's kind of pivoting and he's saying, Well, sometimes it's actually a sacrifice to demons. What do you what do you what do you think about that? Pj Verdin: Man, I I think i I I like that he he does make the dist the distinction, right? Because Randy: Mm-hmm. Pj Verdin: I I mean, I guess hm I I don't know man, I I'd have Randy: I mean he says, I do not want you to become partners with demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. That's pretty interesting, right? All right, so let's keep Pj Verdin: Hmm. That is that is interesting. Well Randy: going. Then he says in verse 23, All things are permitted, but not all things are of benefit. All things are permitted, Pj Verdin: Amen. Randy: but not all things build people up. No one is to seek his own advantage, but rather that of his neighbor. Eat anything that is sold in the meat market without asking questions. For the sake of the conscience. For the earth is the Lord's and all that it contains. If one of the unbelievers invites you and you want to go, eat anything that is set before you without asking questions for the sake of your conscience. So I mean, he keeps bringing up the sake of your conscience, don't ask questions. So to me, he's saying, look, you know, don't ask any questions about it. Just thank God, because everything belongs to the Lord. But I I think it's very interesting here. He's making a point to say, just don't ask where it comes from. Pj Verdin: Hm. Yeah, that that is wild. Randy: But then it goes on. sorry, go ahead. Pj Verdin: No, no, no, no. Go ahead. Randy: Well, verse twenty-eight, but if anyone says to you, This meat this is meat sacrificed to idols, do not eat it for the sake of the one who informed you and the sake of consciousness. Now by conscience I say, Do not mean your own, but the but the other people's, for why is my freedom judged by another's conscience? If I partake with thankfulness, why am I slandered about that? For which I give thanks. So right here he's saying, look, when I'm talking about conscience, I'm not talking about your conscience. I'm talking about the people around you's conscience. You're giving thanks for it. You know everything comes from God, and it's okay to eat it, but don't ask any questions. The second someone puts you on the spot and says, you know, that was sacrificed to demons, what does he say to do? Pj Verdin: Don't eat it. Well, right, Randy: Don't do it. And it's not for you, it's for them. Pj Verdin: right, yeah, well, a hundred percent because basically that's like saying l like we talked about it's like consent by omission, right? It's like, well, you know, i i it's like I I'm Randy: Right. Pj Verdin: I'm co doesn't I'm cool with that. Basically I'm endorsing that it's you know, so yeah, you do you do have to be careful in those in those those situations, you know. Randy: And then and then the last thing here it says, Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all things for the glory of God. A verse which is usually taken completely out of context and applying to all kinds of different stuff, by the way. Do Pj Verdin: Right, right. Randy: not offend Jews or Greeks or the church, just as I also please everyone in all things, not seeking my own benefit, but the benefit of many, so that they may be saved. Which to me, Paul's just saying here, look, man, it just all that matters is you're doing it out of love. Don't go around trying to offend people. Go around trying to, you know, act out of love and so that many so many people could be saved. So if that means that, you know, even though you know it's okay to to do it, don't do it around those people. That's kind of what I'm reading between the lines here. Pj Verdin: Yeah, I mean that I think, you know, yeah, and I mean this one is it's a little, you know, the it's a little bit harder to to interpret, but I mean he there's multiple letters that he writes to multiple churches that echo this same thing. Like you know, we were already Randy: Right. Pj Verdin: given a example in Colossians, but I mean there's there's multiple books where he's he's saying all the things like, Man, listen, stop making this harder than it has to be. You know what I mean? Like it the and and you gotta keep in mind at this time there's a huge culture shift, like we've talked about before. There's a huge there there's so many changes, and it's like, man, like they're literally trying to figure out the the new direction of the church and and what that looks like and and breaking away from this. And you have people who have grown up their whole lives, you know. I mean, look, we two thousand years later are still struggling ourselves with separating our daily walks today. Aside from the law from the old covenant, we're having problems. These these Randy: Right. Right. Pj Verdin: people grew up with the law in effect in their lives, actively every day Randy: Very true. Pj Verdin: for their lives, and then they had to say, wait, hard stop. Jesus died for this and resurrected. That thing is done. Now we're in the we're in the baby steps of this new covenant. And and I I have a lot of undoing that needs to happen. And and so I I mean I get I get why. And and and again in these letters, you know, everybody's spread out. So but Paul's you can see consistent messages. They don't deviate. It it's Randy: Yeah, yeah. Pj Verdin: it's, you know, letting everybody know the same thing. Randy: So I think that's a great perspective because you're right. You know, 2,000 years later, we're still struggling with separating the old covenant from the new covenant. We're still struggling to live by faith and to trust in grace versus our own works and you know the things that we need to do. And you're right to say that, yeah, these people they grew up in a very, you know. Intense culture where their whole life, everything about their life was governed by the law. And now, you know, they're trying to understand this message. And yeah, I c it you're a hundred percent right. I mean, we can't even imagine how tough it would be for them and why. And I and this is exactly why Paul has to keep reiterating over and over and over. If I were to just kind of just you know put it in into my own words, what I what I hear Paul saying in verse 10. I'm sorry, in chapter 10, this is what I get from it. This is what I get. And you tell me what you think about my interpretation. What I get from it is he's saying, Look, guys, look, when you are taking part in a sacrifice, right, you are becoming one part of a body. We are doing this in remembrance of Jesus. So we are partakers of. And there's many of us, but we're all part of the body of Christ. So don't go be a part of a sacrifice to a demon and also try to be part of that body as well. Just like I don't want you to go and be part of the sacrifice in a temple and try to be part of the law either. So what I'm going to tell you guys is stay away from the table. Don't go partake in the sacrifices. However, when you're buying meat, if it happens to come from one of those places, eat it. Praise God. Don't ask any questions until someone points it out to you. and then stay away from it. That's kind of my synopsis. What do you think? Pj Verdin: Yeah. I mean I I think that that's pretty clearly put of of what he he's getting. Yeah. I I think that's well put. I agree. And and I mean, you know, you you see it like like I said, you you think about basically what you summarize is to be in the world and not of the world, right? Or you know, you you can't serve two masters. Like all all these same core fundamental ideas are are echoed throughout multiple situations, whether it be, you know, meet or you know work or whatever. Like it's same core fundamental ideas. And so yeah. you you know, I I I see the the correlation and the consistency there. And Randy: And at the end of the day, Paul is telling us, like, you know, all things are permitted. You could do it, but it's not gonna be beneficial. You could still eat the meat, even if someone points it out to you and they're like, Hey, you know that meat you're eating right now, it was sacrificed to idols. You could still, in good conscience, eat that meat. It is permitted, it is not a sin necessarily for you, it is not gonna separate you from God, it's not something that you know is wrong. But for the sake of those around you, he's saying, look, it's not everything that's permitted is is good. Not everything's gonna build people up. So it's not gonna be beneficial. Pj Verdin: Right. It's not it's not gonna be beneficial. Yeah. And and and I think that as a born again believer, right, I think what you're gonna notice is that you're just not gonna like it. You're just not, you know what I mean? You can do all you can do the things, but you're gonna feel differently. If if you're if you have a new heart and your heart has been changed and made a heart of flesh from a heart of stone, you are gonna feel different about it. I I mean it's just I I I've I've felt it firsthand in in my life in in multiple ways. And and that's kinda like my gauge, right? I allow the Holy Spirit to deal with me personally and and and that's how I I I see where I'm at. There are so many different things, man. that that I've I've used so differently than than how I used to. There's so many things that I feel like deeply in in in my heart now that I before I would have never even I would have never battered an eye. Like I I'd have been able to sleep like a baby. Now it's like I'm sitting there thinking like man like why is this it just eats me up the thought about you know, doing these kind of things are people who do and and and people that I care about just the whole nine. It it's completely different. Now I I'll Randy: Yeah. Pj Verdin: I'll I'll be honest. So you know it drinking is one of those things for me. I you know I I believe that anything that we prioritize above the Lord and and I mean I do mean anything it is a problem. Right? I I think that if you Prioritize sleep. And and I'll tell you so this is this is just a you know a a personal story for me. at one point in time I was doing a lot of traveling for work and I'd have to be at the location, which was an hour and forty-five minutes away from my house at six o'clock in the morning. Okay. Well, on Wednesday nights, church usually doesn't get out until like 10 o'clock. Or we usually don't get home until like 10 o'clock. It gets out at like nine and it's an hour home from church. And so I got to this point where I like, man, like I I'm not trying to be out that late. I need to get my rest. And and I I feel like that, you know, hey, that checks out. Man, you know what? Like, if I wanted to go hunting, I don't care how late I stayed up, I'd still go, you know, I'd I'd stay out late and I'd wake up early just as early as I need to to go hunting. And I was like, but I I won't do that to go here. word of God and so it just kind of it just kind of low check in my spirit and I was like you know what it's one it's one night a one night a week man and and and guess what I was able to make it make it work and you know whatever like I started doing it but but I feel like something that simple right you don't realize like I feel like and and I'm not condemning anybody who would say I would just get to sleep. I'm just saying I I believe that if we're gonna be accurate and and and go apples to apples here That anything that you prioritize above God is a problem. Now, you know, that that's not to say that's that maybe that was the only time that I was getting the word or anything like that. It's just for whatever reason, for myself, like that that's kind of what the the spirit dealt with me about. Was like, man, you know how many times you've stayed up late for things that I guess you would want to do and had no problem getting up, but but trying to Randy: And and I'm glad you make that distinction because right there you're telling me that that's between you and God and your walk in your relationship with Him. Because me personally, and this is a good example of the meat situation, right? Because for me personally, I would say, you know what, my sleep is very important to me. And me wanting to have a good night's sleep so that I could be my best self tomorrow and be rested and healthier is by no means putting sleep above God. It by no means would be. But for you, you're having a different thought. You're thinking of it as, well, hey, I would normally wake up for X, Y, and Z and wouldn't think twice about it. Why wouldn't I do this to attend this service or what have you? That's that's between you and God. But if someone were to ask me my opinion, I would say, go to sleep. But you know, and and there's no right or wrong about it. It's again, Pj Verdin: Yeah. Right. Randy: it's between you and it's between God. Pj Verdin: Right, no, and and and and I agree. And and and for you, like I wouldn't be like, man, so you you might need to pray about that. Like man, that's your walk. And and that's that's the thing I think we try to we we try to put too much of like you know, like I've said it before, we come from so many different walks of life, so many different backgrounds, have so many different testimonies, so many different things that we've been through, different, different, different, and then we become children of God and we think that we're all supposed to be the same. It's like he he he gives us free free will because he didn't want a bunch of robots. You know what I mean? And we all come out like looking the same. And I think that that's what makes the body of Christ necessary. You know what I mean? I I I I know that there's a part where, you know, I I think it was again Paul, more than likely, talking about like if everybody had the same spiritual gifts, like what what what would we do with a bunch of eyes? Like what you know what I mean? Like it would be pointless. The the diversity, yeah, 100%. So Randy: Right. Yeah, yeah. We need we need the the variety. We need our differences to make us yeah, yeah, exactly. Well as we're sorry, go ahead. Pj Verdin: No, no, so I was going say I don't understand why we're so fixated on trying to make sure that everybody's walk looks just like us. But I think what it comes I Randy: Everyone is the same. Yeah. Well as go ahead. Pj Verdin: I think what it comes down to is is because whenever we realize it like we we're we're thinking like, well, we're all following the same law. You know what I mean? So everybody should be doing and not doing the same thing. And it's like, no, no, we're not. You know, I think that's where that comes from. Right, right. Randy: Right. We're not following the same law, first of all. And so we we shouldn't be doing all the same things. But yeah, Pj Verdin: Right. Randy: I yeah, you're 100% right. But there should be common themes, which we all agree to, right? We a person who is growing in their walk with Christ should be moving in, we should all be moving in the same direction. I'll say that. Pj Verdin: Right. A hundred percent. Randy: Well, well, as we've been having this conversation, and I and I just really, you know, really like how Paul ended, you know, chapter 10 of First Corinthians talking about like, you know, do what's Even though everything's permissible, do what's going to be edifying, do what's going to build up. This is the other verse or passage that came to mind that I want to share. And this is from Philippians, another letter from Paul. And he says, let's see here, starting at the beginning, if if there is any encouragement in Christ, if any consolation of love, if any fellowship with the spirit, if any affection and compassion, make my joy complete. By being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose. And that that verse right there by itself, like those couple of verses, that's you know, a whole other topic, but but it sets us up for this next part where it says, Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility, consider one another Pj Verdin: Mm. Randy: more important than yourselves. Right away. That goes back to what we just read in Corinthians. Like, even though your conscience tells you it's okay. Do nothing out of selfish conceit, but with humility, put some the other person above yourself. And then do not merely look out for your own own personal interests, but for the interests of others. And have this attitude which was in Christ Jesus, who ha have had already existed in the form of God and did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking on the form of Of a bondservant and being born in the likeness of men and being found in the appearance as a man, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to the point of death, death on the cross. And it's like, wow, what do I take out of that? I'm taking like he's saying, Look, man, you think that you're giving up your rights? You think that because you could eat that food, drink that alcohol, smoke that, you know, cigarette with a clean conscience that you're somehow sacrificing yourself? To put other people first and not do it in front of them. Look at Jesus, who took off Godhood to become like you, Pj Verdin: Right. Randy: and that wasn't even enough. He then went on not just to die like any other man, but to die the most in the most horrible way. So, and and I'm sharing this because you know, I'll be honest with you, as we've been going through Corinthians and having this conversation, it's just been reminding me personally, brother, of my own struggle that I've been just dealing with in my own life. In this exact thing this giving up of my rights like i find myself and this is just my confession to just just you and me so keep this just between just between us all right but Pj Verdin: Yeah, great. Randy: you know i i i i find myself in this situation where i struggle to give up what i feel is my right and it doesn't matter whether it's my right of way when i'm driving on the road or it's my right to respect when my kids are talking to me disrespectfully Or whatever I have in my mind that I think is my right as a man, Pj Verdin: Mm. Randy: as a father, as a parent, as a, as a, as a, you know, whatever, as just a person, I feel like I have a right and I find it really difficult and a struggle to put other people first at times because I have this mentality of like, hey, look, we got rules for a reason, right? Like, you know, you don't cross over to my land and cut me off because we got. You know, we if people everyone does that, we're gonna have chaos out there, right? Like whatever it is. Like I got it in my mind. Like, we got these rules, we got these rights set up so that way if we all follow them, everything's gonna work out smoothly. And I find myself a lot of times struggling to do exactly what Paul's saying here, which is like, get you gotta give up your rights. You gotta put other people first. If Jesus did it and he's our example, then you got to do it too. And it's it's something I've I've dealt with for a long time, just just between you and me. Pj Verdin: Yeah. Hey, your secret's safe for me, man. But yeah, no, man, that's I I I appreciate you sharing that, man. And and you know, i it's crazy because you know, what I've realized lately, it it it's been it's been it's been kinda weird or or I I don't know. But I'll I'll tell you this, okay. So I I feel like, you know, my wife and I have been going through, you know, a a Not a not even a season. It's just been a couple days, maybe a week of of just feeling like we know that we're we're, you know, kinda getting some attacks from the enemy and we're not at each other, we're not arguing or anything like that. We're just we're just aware, you know what mean? And and man, it it's been you know, and and that's happened before and and you know, but it's what's been weird this time, i if I'm being honest, is it's crazy. You you were talking about your rights. Well, here's kinda what what I I've been realizing, man. Like I've been I've been like seeing the Lord in it, which might sound crazy, but I'll explain. So like, you know, whenever I whenever I think about my relationship with Christ, you know, especially where it's at now, I always kind of use my wife as like a catalyst of of of where I think like, okay, well like, you know, whenever me and my wife first met, I couldn't I couldn't talk to her enough because I wanted to know everything about her. And so I'm like, okay, well, am I treating my my relationship with with God and his word like that. Like am I digging in? So I I just I've made this kind of correlation. Well the crazy thing is, is I I've been kind of seeing that in in the things that that kind of make me maybe make me upset, right? So like, you know, like i if if I feel like I don't know, my my wife, I don't I don't know. I I I can't think of any anything off the top of my head, but let's let's just say for the sake of argument. You know, she she goes out on a girl's night instead of stays at home and and maybe having dinner with me. You know what I mean? Now, granted, it'll be girls from the church, so it's not like a situation like that that I have to worry about. But I might get sad and be like I might get sad and be like, you know what? Like I'm I'm your husband. Like you should want to spend time with me, your husband, more than, you Randy: Right. Pj Verdin: know, whatever. But then but then I think about it, man, like, you know, w why would I say that? Because me and my wife are in a covenant, right? We're in a covenant marriage between us and God. And I'm like, okay, well, I'm in a new covenant with Jesus. And you know how many times, whenever I'm like, man, I could be spending time with him, but I'm gonna choose to go do this. Like, it's just been this lens that I've been looking at it. Like, and then another thing that I think about, you know, I worry about, you know, some of the some of the influences that my kids are hearing, whether it's doctrine or whether it's just, you know, peer pressure stuff or whatever. And I I'm I'm worried about these things and I'm like, wait a minute, God is a father also. You don't think that he's worried about the things that we're hearing? You know what I mean? Like how many times just in scripture is he's like, do not don't be deceived, you know, watch out for this. Don't listen to that, you know? Like, so I like I just been it's been weird. Like I've been kind of just seeing these these parallels. And I guess maybe it's because of like I said, I use my wife as an example in my mind to kind of check myself. I I've been using like that's the same kind of things that I see with her and I, like in in and reflecting it back on myself, like, hey, am I am I doing this in that way towards Christ? And so That's been a a a honest, I feel like it's it's kind of broken me down a little bit, made me a little bit more humble and a little bit more patient with my wife because I'm like, okay, you know what I mean, I can't I can't point this out towards her if I'm doing the same thing over here kind of with my relationship with the Randy: Yeah. Pj Verdin: Lord. Randy: Well well, I think that's exactly the right way to look at things, man. Whenever we're trying to figure out what the right thing to do or think or feel is, it's to look at God as a real person who has real thoughts and feelings towards us as a parent, as a father, right? And to think about how we would feel in that same situation. That's the empathy that God wants us to have towards other people on this planet, first of all. And that's the kind of way that we should you know, judge our our you know our behavior in in his sight because I think that's exactly the way to look at it. You know, if if you're you know if you're thankful for the grace that God gives you when you choose to go and do something with someone else when maybe you feel like you should be spending time with him, then yeah, then it on the other side you should, you know, be gracious towards your wife when she's spending time with other people. It's a it's it's the it's the whole thing. It's all going back to, you know, Forgive not so that you will be forgiven, but forgive how you have been forgiven. And the more we understand the how, the more we understand how much God loves us and how he feels about us, the more that should gu guide us and direct our feelings and our actions towards other people. And and that's so that's why I think you're you're spot on when thinking about it from that, you know, kind of that human emotional perspective. Pj Verdin: Well, and and it's funny, right? Be because, you know, I man, I I'd have to look it up and and maybe we can we can do that in a in a minute. But, you know, there's that verse that says that he who has been forgiven much doesn't say that he forgives much, it says he loves much. He loves much. Randy: He loves much. Yep. Pj Verdin: You know what I mean? So it's like that just goes to show you it's like, man, like w I I think I think that that's that's probably my my favorite way that it's put there because it's like, man, whenever Whenever you realize how much you've been forgiven and what you've been forgiven of, you you realize that that's love. You've you've received like the love of Jesus, like genuinely, like you get it. You're not like, that I appreciate him forgiving me. You know what I mean? That's nice. And then you're like, man, like that that forgiveness came at a the the the highest cost. You know what I mean? And it's like my response to that forgiveness is I have to love the way that that love came that that forgiveness came about, which was by, you know, agape love. So I I I like that response there. And but yeah, man, it it's been it's been cool. you know, kind of letting the Lord grow me and mature me in those ways and and like it's just like little subtle things that I would have never even realized before that just kind of hit me and I and I love those little things. And and I know we've already kind of talked about it, but yeah, it's been it's been weird. I don't know if you saw, but you know, I I was having a conversation with someone yesterday and we were just kind of you know, talking about, you know, basically being fake or not, you know, superficial a relationship with God and and what that looks like and and and how we, you know, can can see areas where it we feel like it's running rap rampant. And you know, I was, you know, kind of in this conversation and I was like, look, man, I was like, you know, I've even before I I came to Christ I've always been the type of person that I kind of wear my my heart and my dirt on my sleeve because I don't want someone to think that I'm better than I am ever. Like, and that's just always been been my mentality. You know, if I made a mistake, I'm hey, that was me. That's my bad. I have no problem owning owning my my crap, you know? And and and so it was like, yeah, but you know, it's you you you can't do that, you're gonna get judged. I'm like, man. not worried about being judged by this people. Like what what are we talking about? That's that's the whole point. And and so I I I went on Facebook and I I posted like, hey look, that this is this is me. These are the things that I do. And you know, I'm not here for debate. I'm just here to be honest and be be real with y'all because this is this is me saying, listen, yes, I love the Lord, but just because I love the Lord and and and my walk with him is the most important thing in my life doesn't mean that I'm perfect. doesn't mean that I've got it all figured out. Doesn't mean that you might not see me on potentially the worst day of my life and be like, what I thought this guy loved the Lord. Like yeah, I I do, you know, regardless of my condition or or or whatever. You know what I mean? Like I do. It it's and and so I put it out there, man, and and you know, I was like, it it's gonna be what it is, but the you know, I'm not going to I I you know I I I don't ever want to have that leafy liar. mentality of of of the fig tree. You Randy: Mm-hmm. Pj Verdin: know what mean? And and and and and I and I want to I want to normalize, you know, people being real and honest and raw. You know what I mean? Like like what we saw with with Theo Vaughn in that video where it's like, man, like, you know, i that that kind of genuine like man, like sometimes, you know, like I I'll even and and mind you, this is for for for those people who still think that, you know, they're still in that stage in their walk where they feel like they gotta you know, have the grace bar of soap they're washing themselves lay daily, like, you know, hey God, forgive me for this again. And and they're no like he said, I know in my mind, like I'm gonna do this again. So I feel like I'm lying to God. Like at least you you're honest in enough to at least honest enough with yourself. Like he never had to tell anybody else that. But being that honest with yourself, I think is so important. Because you know, Randy: Yeah. Pj Verdin: ultimately what I what I think can happen is is that even after you know we we we come to Christ, we we repent and give our lives to Christ because at some point we realize that our our trajectory is is going towards hell and we're in need of a savior. And so we turn to him. I think the same thing can happen on this side, man. It's like if you you you've you've turned you you know you've repented and now you you know the Lord and you you love him. But if you're allowing yourself to believe the doctrines of men or fall back into the the old the the law, the old covenant, then you're getting to this point where you're like, sh I go to church every every time the door is open, I read my Bible every day, I only listen to this and and and it's building up on works, then you again get to a point where you feel like you don't need a savior. And that's a dangerous place to be, in my opinion. Randy: Yeah. Yep. Pj Verdin: You know what I mean? That's why I I I believe it it Paul's clear in Galatians, whenever he says if you put yourself under the law again, then you fall f you fall from grace. You got given grace Randy: Mm. Pj Verdin: freely. But if you're gonna hold yourself to the standard of the law, God's gonna say, Okay, well, I don't know why you would do that. I give you grace freely. But if you want to hold yourself to the standard of law, then you've fallen from grace. That's that's a scary, scary thing. Randy: You y you know what you know what it reminds me of? And you know, I it's it's funny because you know, I you know I I used to I used to do music and I had a whole album called The Tip, right? and my whole my whole philosophy was look, got you know, Jesus paid the bill. I it's already paid. The meal is paid. I want my life to just be just a tip, right? 'Cause I know that nothing I could do is going to matter. in in terms of my salvation, but it could be that little extra, the tip. And I w I was just thinking as you were talking about, even though that I think that's a good analogy, it reminds me though of what you know what it was? It was the episode of Friends. You know do you know where I'm going with this? Did you ever watch the T V show Friends? Pj Verdin: I I love friends, but I I'm yeah, I I I'm not sure yet. Randy: There was an episode of Friends where I think it was Ross. He was went to dinner with Rachel and her dad, and he got all offended because the dad paid for the meal but didn't leave a good tip. And so, like, he slipped some extra cash in the envelope, and then the dad saw it, and he was Pj Verdin: yeah, yeah. And the dad's like, what like what yeah, what is that? Randy: like, Well, then you could just pay for the whole thing, you know? And he got all offended, right? And Pj Verdin: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Randy: it's like I I liked the analogy of the tip. Obviously, I named the whole album the tip. had a song called The Tip. But isn't that the same thing? Isn't it the same thing? Like when we start to you know, rely on our works and and we start to think that we're somehow justified by our works, don't you think God gets just as offended as Rachel's dad did and just want to say to to us like, hey, you think you could do it, then do it then. Pj Verdin: I I I think that he should, but you know, like like I said before, as much stuff as we we throw at him and blame on him and give him the you know, the the short end of the stick for, he just you know, once we're his children, he's just looking down like, I love you. I forgive you. You know what I mean? You have you have Randy: Yeah. Pj Verdin: grace and abundance, like I I I don't I don't even I don't even remember none of that crap. And man, we Randy: Well, I think that's why, you know, I think that's why the apostle Paul tells us though, like, hey, like, you know, you don't need to start circumcising Gentiles, because don't you know that once you go that route, you're accountable for the whole law. So maybe Pj Verdin: Yeah. Randy: God is more gracious, but I think, you know, Paul gives us some pretty good warnings that like you don't even want to start to go down that wrath, that that path. Pj Verdin: Well, a hundred percent because a hundred percent because he's saying he's like, Man, like if you're gonna if you're gonna hold yourself to the standard of the law, then you're gonna fall from grace because you know, I I I it it only makes sense, right? That that if if God is like God honors our free will before, during and after, you know what I mean? Like it's like it's like we okay, you know, we have the the free will inside us to choose him or not. And he's like I I I gave you that that ability. But then you you like you you use that free will to choose him, but then he's like, Okay, cool. Here's here's the grace that that you receive through faith. You know what mean? It's free. Thank you. Thank you, Jesus. Literally, it is finished. And then you're like, Yeah, well, what about that? What about that law of Moses though? Like that thing, like I I'm pretty sure I could do that, like four out of those ten. Like I can keep four out of those ten. And he's like, But you don't have to keep any of them. And you you and he well, but listen, let me just let me just give it a shot. He's like knock yourself out. But if that's if that's the route you wanna go, I'll respect it, just like I've respected your decision to get here. But just know that's n it's not good, you know. Randy: So so I I wouldn't be I I would I wouldn't be able to be satisfied unless I shared this song with you. did you ever listen to the truth? The truth used to be signed the cross movement. Pj Verdin: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. he was in the early early time, right? They they he ended up not being in the group after, right? Randy: Well, he was never in the group, but he was like, I think one of their, if not their very first, like solo artists that they signed to the to the record label, Pj Verdin: Okay. Randy: but but wasn't part of the group. But our conversation earlier about, you know, what I told you, you know, about like you know, imitating Jesus, it reminded me again of of this song. so I'm gonna let me read the lyrics to see if you heard this song. the lyrics says, lesson number one. I can't be a slave to the hype. Number two, man, God forbid that I get my name in them lights. Number three, I got to ro I got the right to wear them vapes if I like. But watching Jesus, he was famous, but he was waving his rights. I get Pj Verdin: Tomal. Randy: I get I get chills just thinking of that. And then the next party Pj Verdin: That's dope, yeah. Randy: says he was king. He could have came in on a white horse. That would not have been sinful, but he came in on a donkey. I ain't got a ride in no limo. None of this would be happening if I was shopping the demo. So I'm content if the car is clean. And I could roll down the window. Pj Verdin: Come on. That's dope. Yeah, I don't I don't I don't recognize Randy: That's good stuff. Pj Verdin: that song, but yeah, that's that is good stuff, man. Randy: Yeah, it's good stuff. And it just reminded me of, you know, what we were talking about earlier. It's like, man, you know, we could sit here and say we got the right to this or to that or to feel a certain way or we got the freedom in Christ. And we do. And we absolutely do. But like Paul says, it's like, but not all things are beneficial. Not all things are edifying. Do all things out of love. And and man, I tell you, I'm I'm I I'm I'm number one I'm the number one offender. I'll just say that because I definitely feel like that's something that I could do a better job of. It's just like he says here, just waving, just waving those rights. Pj Verdin: Well it man it it's it's a it's a process. Randy: Good word. Pj Verdin: Yeah, yeah. You know, it it is and and not in the not in the way of like we're we're becoming more righteous or anything. But it it it is is a process. I I think it's it's a renewing of the mind process is what I would call it, right? So just in in the same way like Randy: Absolutely. Pj Verdin: in the same way we're talking about how like man, you got these, you know, these Jews who just f finally, you know, they they lived the in the law their whole lives and then now they're not, like it you gotta renew this mind, man, because you know, it's like these things, these ways you just fall into is like second nature. Second nature. You know what mean? And and and in the same way, you know, that you you can say an atheist has some kind of moral compass, whether he whatever however he wants to attribute that that that moral code between right and wrong or or whatever, you know, even if he doesn't a believing God, it's like, okay, just because he does things that that would make him look like a good person, right? It doesn't doesn't mean that he's in alignment with God. So why is it that we think on the opposite end of it that like, okay, well, you know, it's like it just it just doesn't make make sense to me, man. Like I just I I don't I don't know. I I I don't get it. And and and and I and I get again why we as believers who care about the the nature of of the the especially the people that we know and we love and we care about. We care about their souls. We're like, I don't want to see nobody go to hell. Well guess what? You're not doing them any favors by trying to enforce the law that doesn't apply to them. You're not doing them any any justice. What you're doing is making something that was meant to be impossible seem impossible to somebody who who is like who don't even know if they want this Jesus thing that you got. You know what I mean? Randy: Well right. We're not doing them any favors. We're not we're not acting out of love when we when we throw judgment their way and condemnation, try to make them feel bad because we think that, you know, because we do certain things or don't do certain things that we got it right. And we're not we're not in in in on the opposite end of the spectrum, like Paul's saying, we're not doing them any favors, we're not acting out of love when we do the opposite either, when we do things in front of them that express our liberty and freedom in Christ's. When we know they struggle with those things or they have a certain opinion of those things. It goes both ways. I don't want to be the guy that tells anybody, hey man, you know, you doing that thing, whatever it is, you know, you you, you know, you go and watch that new movie that I know was produced by a bunch of, you know, atheist heathens who hate God. I think it's sinful for you to go watch that movie. You see the agenda they're trying to push in that movie. Why are you? Calling yourself a Christian, going watch that movie. I don't ever want to be that guy. But at the same time, I also want don't want to be the guy who is sitting there slamming a beer like it's nothing because, you know, for me it's not. When there's another person who's looking at me thinking the whole time, like, I thought the Bible tells us we shouldn't be drinking. And this guy's over here drinking. Is that what a you know what Christians do? I I don't want to be either one of those, those guys at the end of the day. And I think that's that I think that's kind of the point, right? It's like what whatever you're doing, do it out of love. You know, do it out of love. Do it in a way that's gonna edify, you know, the people around you. And man, it's it's a struggle because it's a balance. It's it's not just the black and white. The law was pretty black and white in most cases. And what did they do? The Jews found all sorts of ways around the law. You know, they were counting steps on the Sabbath, right? They were they were they came up with laws on top of laws just to try to, you know, find the loophole. And God looked at that and he's like, Man, that's not good either. So he gives us his spirit to guide us. And what it looks like now is it looks like a lot of gray, unfortunately. It looks like a lot of gray in a lot of cases. So for me to say that it's okay for me to drink and maybe not okay for someone else to drink, that looks pretty gray. But if you're a person who's struggling with alcohol and God has told you, hey, I I want you to stop, then it's that means for you it's not okay. It's not okay. Pj Verdin: That's right. Randy: And you know what? And maybe for me, even maybe God might look at me and say, you know. You've never struggled with with drinking. you've never never been an alcoholic, but for a time, I don't want you to drink. Or maybe for the rest of your life, I don't want you to drink. If I feel like God's telling me that and I still drink, then I'm wrong. And I shouldn't, and I shouldn't do that. And and I think that Pj Verdin: Hundred percent. I with with Randy: that's why it very it is individualistic and dependent on your walk with God. Pj Verdin: Yes. Yes, absolutely. I I I a hundred percent agree. That's the most important part, right? If God has put it on your heart, like the Holy Spirit has let you know, like, nope, cut this out, then you're either being obedient to to to the word of God or you're not, right? So that's the difference. But for for us as as brothers and sisters in Christ, it I I do not believe. Don't i and and don't get me wrong, I I you know, people will say, well, this is, you know, righteous judgment. I'm just saying, hey, look, well, I I'm just, you know, I I I've Randy: That's something that people say. That is exactly something people say. Pj Verdin: I've I've seen that again coming from the the best of intentions, which we know that's the road to hell is paved with good intentions, right? it it's it not always be the right thing. I would say, listen, w what I what I have been trying to do myself is if I see something in somebody that that you know I may not agree with. I'm I might not even tell them unless it's something just blatantly. But if it's something that I'm not sure about, like I'll I'll I'll take that to the Lord myself, like on behalf of my brother in Christ. Like, hey, look, you know what, Lord, I just pray that if this is a situation, you know, you you bring clarity, put it on your heart. And and I feel like, hey, listen, you know what? I I got a mediator. You know what I mean? And and me and my brother over here, we sh we We share the same Holy Spirit dwelling within us. Let me let me bring it to him. And if he feels like it's something that that brother needs to get worked out, that's between them two. I didn't go up to him Randy: Right. Right. Pj Verdin: and say, Hey, look, man, you know what? I don't do that. I don't think you should do that. Like, man, that's I don't I just don't think that that's the right way to go about it. I don't think that's what we see in the Bible as far as handling stuff, you know. Randy: Yeah. Yep. And and again, it goes it goes to it goes not just to your relationship with God and their relationship with God, but also your relationship with that person. You know what I mean? Because Pj Verdin: Yes. Randy: you know, you know what you you know based on your relationship with that person, you know, where what where you could take the conversation and when you could Pj Verdin: Hundred percent. Randy: have an open and honest conversation about something that you might observe and in and when that might be okay or not. Right. And and if you if you were to tell me, you know. Hey man, like every time I talk to you, like, you know, it seems like you, you know, you've had three or four beers, man. Like, are you drinking too much? Like, I I would be, I would not be offended or shocked or hurt or anything because it's coming from you, right? Pj Verdin: Mm-hmm. Randy: But if if somebody who I haven't seen in two years happens to run into me out in public, you know, when when I've just had dinner and I'm on my third or fourth drink, which very rarely happens, and they were to tell me that. That's gonna come across totally different. So it's not Pj Verdin: Hundred percent. Randy: just our relationship with God, but it's our relationship with the people in our lives that even Pj Verdin: Right. Randy: determines, you know, what where we go and how we could approach these kind of things. And at the end of the day, I think those are the kind of things we got to think about when we are thinking about what does it actually mean to act in a way that is loving and edifying. Pj Verdin: Hundred percent. Yeah. And I mean I think that that's the reason why, you know, Paul could write a letter to the church and tell Y'all need to get y'all stuff together and they'd be like, Dang, we we letting Paul down or he goes tells some people Randy: Right. Pj Verdin: and they s try to stone to death. It's like, Well, you know, you know what I mean? You know, so Randy: Exactly. Great point. Yeah. He he he yeah, he puts one church on blast and they're like, my gosh. And he and he Pj Verdin: I need it. Randy: barely like is very humble in approaching other people and they're like all offended. It it goes back to that relationship that he has, you know, with with the different groups. Yeah, good point. Yep. Pj Verdin: Hundred percent, man. Yeah. So Randy: All right, man. Well, hey, I know you know there was a couple other things that you know I did have on the mind to talk about today, but I think we're pretty much, you know, at our time. So I think let's save it for A future episode. So at some point I do want to come back and talk about the the the new movie that Mel Gibson is working on, The Passion of the Christ 2. I would Pj Verdin: I'm excited. Randy: like to talk about some comments that I heard on the Joe Rogan podcast talking about The Chosen, the TV show, which you and I have discussed a lot in the past. Pj Verdin: Come on. Randy: And you know, I I think that's something we could definitely talk about in a future episode. And then also, you know, I'm excited about the interviews that we have coming up with some other acquaintances who are gonna share their testimony and what their daily walk with with Christ is like. So I'm really excited about that and I'm hoping that people are gonna, you know, tune in to listen because I think that there's gonna be a lot of good stuff coming up in the future of the Walk Talk podcast. Pj Verdin: Yep. Randy: all right, man. Pj Verdin: Horrible. Randy: Well I think with that, I think that just about does it. So thank you guys so much for listening. let us know what you think in the comments below. God bless. Pj Verdin: God bless.