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Ed Sanner: Mosrite Mastermind - Creator of Amps and Effects · San Joaquin Sound

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You're listening to the San Joaquin Sound Podcast,
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the podcast about music in Bakersfield and the
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surrounding San Joaquin Valley. For episode 16
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of the San Joaquin Sound Podcast, I traveled
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to Lake Isabella to interview Ed Sanner, who
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is 88 years old and still working on guitars
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and making pedals. He worked at Moserite, a legendary
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guitar company based in Bakersfield, California.
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For rock and roll, Kurt Cobain of Nirvana, Fred
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Sonic Smith from MC5, and Johnny Ramone all played
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Moserite guitars. Moserites were also ubiquitous
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in surf music, most famously played by the Ventures.
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They even had their own model. Moserites were
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originally used in country music with Joe Maphis.
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Buck Owens, and Roy Nichols all having played
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Moserite guitars at one time or another. At the
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peak of production in 1968, Moserite was making
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an estimated 600 to 1 ,000 guitars every month.
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But Moserite didn't just make guitars, they made
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amplifiers and pedals too. The main designer
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of those electronics was Ed Sanner. He was one
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of the pioneers of early solid -state amps and
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created the Moserite -Fuzrite fuzz pedal back
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in 1966. This pedal was made famous on Iron Butterfly's
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Inigata Da Vita, and Don Rich even used it on
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Buck Owen's song, Who's Gonna Mow Your Grass?
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In this interview, we talk a lot about different
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people involved with Moserite, so let me give
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you a short explanation. Semmy Mosley is the
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founder of Moserite. He was a great guitarist
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and a master guitar builder that pushed boundaries
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with his designs. His brother, Andy Mosley, also
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worked in the factory. The branch manager who
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was in charge of running the factory and ordering
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all the parts was named Ken Gilstrap. Ed sometimes
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refers to him as Billstrap. I also want to give
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a special thanks to Chris Goodsell, who you may
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remember from Episode 9. He has been friends
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with Ed for years, and without him, this interview
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could have never happened. We should talk about
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growing up. So, you were born in... Palmdale.
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Yeah. Legally, it's Lancaster rural area. Yeah.
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Which, that doesn't mean anything to anybody.
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It's really in Palmdale, in the Palmdale Hospital
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at that time. Yeah, and your father was Edwin
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Joseph Sanner, and your mother was Thelma? Right?
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Yeah. And what type of music did they listen
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to? Up to the point of when I was six years old,
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one of the places we lived had a crank type of
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record player, one of the old styles. Yeah. And
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you put records on it. So the kind of music there
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would be the type that was the top music during
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the 1920s. Okay, so like on 78s? Yeah, 78s, uh
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-huh. When I was five years old, right next to
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six, just before I got old enough to start school.
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That was 1942 when the World War II started.
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My dad had built a building there, and before
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I had a mother, he... leased it out to this couple
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as a restaurant so that they lived in it and
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had a restaurant. And that's what they did. That
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was in the 30s. That's awesome. And then in 1941,
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Burl Harbor, it was bombed. Yeah. And that was
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the same time the people that had that restaurant
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gave it up. And so my folks took it over because
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there was no way of getting somebody else to
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do it. Because at that time, at the same time,
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everything you wanted to buy was rationed. Yeah,
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war rations. Yeah, you had to have a certain
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ration permit to buy anything. And my dad was
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a slicker, and he was able to buy enough food
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to run the restaurant. My bedroom was upstairs.
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This is how I got into music. Downstairs was
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a piano. It was really a restaurant, except on
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Saturday night. Saturday night, it was a beer
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joint. It would stay open until 2 in the morning,
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because that's the end you can sell alcohol.
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I was left to just do whatever I wanted to do.
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I never got in trouble doing anything, except
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one thing. There were some boxes in one of our
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sheds, and I set it afire and kind of shook them
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up. At one time, they got really mad at me. So
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you said that you first started getting into
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music there because there was a piano? Yeah.
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There was one guy there that I found out later
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had tuberculosis, but tuberculosis could not
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be cured in that day. Oh, no. He would have a
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good time getting as drunk as you can think.
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He would get so drunk that he would have two
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people holding him on the stool so he didn't
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fall off playing piano. Wow. And there'd be the
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guy there that would play some guitar once in
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a while. Another guy played the button box accordion.
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So when it was closed the next day, they don't
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open till noon. It wasn't a school day. I'd go
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out in front and start playing those instruments.
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One day I had a music magazine. It had in there
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a lesson on how to play the piano. Only half
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of the lesson, though. The lesson, it was My
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Country Tis of Thee. It was a song. Well, in
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those days, you got to sing that first thing
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when you go to school. So I had it already in
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my head, the melody. And somebody had told me
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where the C. Middle C. The Middle C. They told
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me about that. And I... Sat down, I played My
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Country, Tis of Thee on that piano. My mother's
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bedroom is upstairs, and so is my dad's. And
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she wasn't up yet. She heard me playing it. My
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country, tis of thee, this land of liberty. So
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she got all excited and got me some lessons for
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the piano. Cool. And we got through book number
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one, which is the right hand. So I didn't go
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too much further with the piano, other than just
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playing on it, messing around. Yeah. My dad had
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a guitar there for another guy that would come
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in every once in a while and play the guitar,
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the acoustic guitar. I tried to play that, and
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I couldn't understand it. I'd retune it every
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time, and they didn't like that. That was the
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end of my guitar playing. There was... A German
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family in our neighborhood, one of the boys there
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played piano accordion. Cool. But there was a
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German guy in this band where we're, this isn't
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really a band, but at my folks' restaurant, a
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German man playing the button box accordion.
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Oh, yeah, like polkas? Yep. Well, he could do
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any kind of music on it. He was good at it. So
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it was him and the piano, and then the other
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guy with the guitar playing, and I had a lot
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of fun. The accordion got to stay there all the
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time, and I would go out in the mornings before
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noon, before they opened, and it wasn't a school
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day, and I would play it. I learned to play the
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button box all by myself or just by listening
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to the guy that played it. Playing by ear, that's
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cool. God had already given me skills in music
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with that because after that, anybody could just
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sing a song and I would just play it. Didn't
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read music. And when I was probably, I think,
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10, the German friend that I had, he come by
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and showed me his accordion his mother got him,
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the piano accordion. I'd already learned the
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piano. The right hand and the piano accordion
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are identical. Yeah, that's cool. And I wasn't
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sure how to do the bass end yet, but I could
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hear it. I didn't know what I was doing, but
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I found out I could hear that boom, boom, boom,
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boom on records. We didn't have a radio of any
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good in there. Later on, we got one for my sisters.
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They could hear the parades, not the parades
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in the street, the big parade of the Who's the
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Best song. Yeah, the hit parade or something.
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Yeah, and I got to listen to that, and I was
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hearing songs played somewhere else now. Radio
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signal was very scarce there. There was only
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two stations we could get from Los Angeles. That
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really excited me. Finally, I got interested
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in the piano accordion, and my dad bought me
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an accordion, piano accordion. It really was
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a complete different thing than the push -button
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accordion. Yeah. So that was pretty neat. I learned
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that, and so I played the piano accordion mostly
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until I was 18. I had temporarily been acquainted
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with some people that were... the kind of people
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that would move around and they'd work for harvest
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time for trees and fruits and whatever. They
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played the guitar a little bit, and it got me
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interested in that. So when I was 18, I'd finished
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high school. I thought I was going to go to junior
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college. It didn't work out. But I bought myself,
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for my birthday, a guitar. See, the price on
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it was $18, brand new. Wow. Called a Stella guitar.
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And somebody said, you're going to be careful.
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You got to play it every day to get your fingers
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fixed up. Otherwise, you're going to be bleeding
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in your fingers. And they was right. So at that
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time, we had got our first television maybe a
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year before. And there were some... A couple
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of music programs on there where there was dancing
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and had a band, a live band. I'd never seen a
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live band before. Wow. Could I ask you a question
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about the TV set you were talking about? I read
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that you started repairing that TV set. That's
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when you first started working with electronics
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and tubes, right? Could you tell me more about
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that? Yeah, it was a 16 -inch screen. I had to
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talk for months to get my dad to get it. Actually,
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he got it about the same time I got my driver's
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license because I was getting in trouble all
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the time driving into Palmdale to the movie theater
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without a driver's license. And I kept getting
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tickets for doing that until it made the judge
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finally say, you get a license or I'm going to
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put you in juvenile hall. I didn't know I could
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get one at 15, but I did. Yeah, we had a hardship
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in the family, and I could because of that. So
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I got it at 15, and we got the television about
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when I was about 14. And who taught you to repair
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it like that, or did you just learn yourself
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by tinkering? Well, actually, as far as television,
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I had to learn by doing, but... In high school,
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in those days, you could learn to trade in high
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school, where I had all kinds of things I could
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learn on how to build and make and work. And
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part of that was learning radio signals. There
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wasn't many TVs around at that time, but they
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had radio signals. So that you could get a radio.
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In fact, one day it was a big deal. The teacher
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brought in something. He says, this is a, it's
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what they put in a radio. Transistor? Yeah, it
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was a transistor. It was a little bitty tiny
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thing. He held it up and he says, that's all
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you're going to learn about transistors is that.
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That's what they look like. But he had taught
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us how tubes work. We had a contest finally.
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One kid got an A+. He bought a kit. But the difference
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is he had directions and a pile of parts to put
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together. Mine was made out of scraps. And, of
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course, in school there, not only electronics,
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they had a place there that you could work in
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wood and metal, aluminum or anything in there.
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I got to learn how to work all those tools. That
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came in handy later, right? It did. Did you go
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to Antelope Valley High School? I did. I think
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it's cool that in high school you were able to
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take all these classes that you really took all
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the stuff they taught you and you were going
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to use all that later. That's really awesome.
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What really gets to me is later on, For a while,
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I had my shop to fix guitars and amplifiers and
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build and whatever in my garage at my home. And
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there was a half a dozen kids in the neighborhood
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who was interested in that. So I told them, I
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said, well, the next time they set up your periods
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of what you're going to have for classes, tell
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them you want the electronics class and then
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you can learn it. They said they don't do that.
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And I thought that was terrible. Yeah, I wish
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they did that when I was in high school. I think
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some high schools might have classes like that,
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but it's not an every high school thing anymore.
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But I had another question about this time. I
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heard that you got really interested in the tape
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echo effect, right? Oh, yeah, that was years
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ago when that first came out. Yeah, and what
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did you do? I made one. Yeah, that's a complicated
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effect. It has a tape reel and a tape. It's not
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just some transistors, and that's hard to make.
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At that time, they had these low -cost tape recorders
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that you could take home. They weren't very big.
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You would take the 7 -inch spool, and you could
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sing on it or play guitar on it. It had one microphone
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with it. Okay, from that... A friend of mine
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bought one that was one of the first of those
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tape echo chambers. And I'd seen what he did
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to make that. And I thought, you know what? I
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bet I can build one. I did. I bought the parts
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from the company that made that, that tape player.
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That's cool. As a unit, I bought the parts, the
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little motors and everything, all of that. I
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bought their parts and put it together to be
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an echo chamber because you had to have extra
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electronics in there to make it echo. Yeah. I
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have a question about that tape echo. Was that
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the first pedal that you built, that tape echo?
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Well, it wasn't really a pedal. It was more like
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a tape recorder. Yeah. Well, I guess the first
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guitar effect. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was effect.
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Yeah. Cause that was before you started working
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for Moserite. Oh yeah. A long ways before that.
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I look back here and I see this guitar from RC
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Allen. Didn't you, weren't you friends with him?
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Is that where you started learning about guitars?
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He helped a lot. When I left home, I went down
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to the El Monte area of Los Angeles. And that's
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where I met him, Dick Allen. The guys that I
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was playing with, they let me sit in with them,
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which excited me. I get to play music with other
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people. When I got there to El Monte, Dick Allen,
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and he had a Gretsch guitar, electric guitar,
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with his name in it, you know. Yeah, in the fretboard?
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In the fretboard. Oh, wow, cool. It got him interested
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in guitar making also. But he knew every musician
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that was in the L .A. area. He had me over to
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his house. I could listen to some of his Chad
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Atkins records. I went ahead and bought the Gibson.
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It's usually right up the top up here. It's an
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electric guitar. Is it like the ES? ES -175.
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Cool. That's what it was, ES -175. And that's
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when I started playing electric guitar. One day
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we was playing music together, and he played
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mine. He said, you know, you need to get your
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set up. I said, what do you mean set up? This
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is a Gibson, $120, which now is $1 ,020. Yeah.
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He decided one day to make... What it is you
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put on a guitar to make it look pretty with your
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name on it. Pit guard? Pit guard. He made me
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a nice one. Joe Maphis was a big, good guitar
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player. Yeah. He was one of my favorites. And
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he had that double -necked one. Yeah. He was
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learning how to do that stuff that Simi Mosley
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put on those guitars with all of that lettering.
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So that's what he tried was mine, and it come
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out nice. On my ES -175, Dick made me that one
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in exchange for an amplifier. In the meantime,
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while he's making guitars, I'm making amplifiers.
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Yeah. The first job I had when I left high school,
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I didn't leave it, I graduated. I wasn't going
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to get a job anywhere in Antelope Valley. You
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had to either know how to work on airplanes or
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you had to know how to grow food to eat. That's
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why I went down to the L .A. area looking for
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work. The first one I had was making paint. What
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a bad idea that was. I don't get along with paint
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to this day. I don't. So I quit after a year.
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Went back down to El Monte. I can't think of
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the town that is east of it. It's where rich
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people live. But anyway, there was a street there
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that had nothing but industrials, and I went
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in the ones that looked interesting to see if
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they needed help. The very first one that I seen
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caught my eye, and it was called Electrowinders.
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That was the name, and they made transformers.
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Oh, that's cool. Right up my alley. Yeah. I learned
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how to make transformers when I was in high school.
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My dad taught me how to do soldering because
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my dad was a sheet metal worker, one of his trades.
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Anyway, they hired me. I was there four years.
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After I was there two years, he says, you are
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now, said, you are the chief engineer. I took
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over the whole thing. And the only thing that
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stopped it was Uncle Sam. Of course, Uncle Sam
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was on my tail then. I do have a question. So
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you talked about Uncle Sam. So you're talking
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about how you went into the Air Force, right?
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Okay. At that time, if you said Uncle Sam, that
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was somebody you're ready to go and grafted.
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I had no choice. Did you make any amps while
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you were there? You know, I did. I don't know
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how you know that. Somebody told me. I heard
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about it. I read about it. Actually, I made an
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amplifier for a guy, and I wasn't supposed to
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get anything out that they put in airplanes,
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but I had some scrap metal to make the chassis.
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Military -grade amplifier. Yeah, to make the
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chassis. I did that. And not only that, I made
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a echo unit with these tape. I made one of those
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in there. Oh, cool. Two. Yeah. And that was being
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able to sneak out of getting, well, actually
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the metal wasn't in any shape to put in an airplane.
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It was already just pieces. Yeah. They give me
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that. They let me use. They go into the shop,
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and I was able to use the machines in the shop.
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It was for people that had hobbies. Me and two
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other guys got a trophy one time for being the
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best entertainers. Right there is a cigarette
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lighter. We actually got first place, just three
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of us, all three playing guitars, and we're competing
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with four or five other groups. Wow, that's cool.
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You were still building amps and stuff. We talked
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about that in the Air Force. But what about after
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you went to L .A. and you were in some bands
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that played clubs, right? Yeah. And what bands
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were those? How was that? None of them that was
22:51
anything special. Was it country? Yeah, mostly
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country. It was just setting in with them. You
23:00
have jam sessions every once in a while, and
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that's a lot of what I was doing. But looking
23:05
to be with a band, I did go with one band, and
23:09
it's got that picture up there with the three
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people in it. Was that with Diane Jewett? Yep.
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And that was when I was 29 years old. This is
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before the aircraft thing. Oh, okay. And you
23:30
were playing bass. Yeah. No, I was playing guitar.
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That's the guitar, yeah. That's right. Yeah,
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we didn't even have a bass player. That lasted
23:41
about six months. The little girl there was only
23:44
15 years old. And the other boy that played steel,
23:49
he was 17, I believe. But I met a lot of the
23:53
big shots, too, doing that. How did you get to
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Bakersfield? I got out of the Air Force. At that
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point. I didn't go back to where I was at that
24:04
company that made Transformers. So I was hanging
24:07
around the bars around El Monte and that area.
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Again, we're getting to that part where I would
24:16
sit in with them and play a little bit or play
24:19
with them. Maybe the whole night, not get paid
24:21
for it, but get to play. Yeah. Anything to play.
24:26
Yeah, it's fun. Some musicians came down from
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Bakersfield one day. Merle Haggard and his drummer
24:34
and another guy played bass, and the guy was
24:38
playing steel, coming on down to El Monte to
24:44
this bar with his whole band and played with
24:47
us. Played instead of us, but with us. And that's
24:52
where we got to know Merle Haggard. Wow. Okay,
24:56
the guitar player, anyway, while he was there,
24:59
we got to talking. I had met Simi Mosley before
25:06
I went in the Air Force. I had met him in his
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backyard that he had rented a shack head where
25:14
you could see through the walls because it was,
25:17
I mean, it just was bare. And he was living in
25:20
the San Fernando Valley. And that's when he was
25:24
making the guitars, the double neck, triple necks.
25:30
single, all of that, one at a time. But in the
25:34
meantime, he had moved to Bakersfield while I
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was in the Air Force. The second time they come
25:43
down to play music with Merle, he said, Simi
25:48
is looking for somebody to build amplifiers in
25:52
Bakersfield. And boy, the old light come on.
25:58
In the meantime, Leo was a steel guitar player,
26:03
Leo. He moved up to Bakersfield, and since he
26:09
was colorblind, asked me to drive the truck for
26:13
him. So he rented a truck, and then I drove it
26:17
all up there. That gave me an idea of where things
26:21
were and where some of those guys lived and all
26:25
of that. I went up, and I talked to Simmy's brother.
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Andy? Andy, yeah. I was talking to and I mentioned
26:34
the other guy. He said, do you want somebody
26:36
to make you amplifiers? He says, yes, sir. And
26:40
so he hired me. So then I had to drive down to
26:43
Bakersfield and get a trailer and all my stuff
26:46
up there. And we got along very good with Simi
26:50
and his group. The first thing I did is I made
26:53
him a tube amp. They was really excited. And
26:57
Simi took a liking to me real good. And everybody,
27:00
I got along with all the people working there.
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And one of the guys that made guitars made the
27:06
wooden cabinet for the amplifier. And one of
27:10
the guys there went over to the machine shop
27:13
and had metal pieces made for the chassis and
27:16
all of that. Anyway, they went down to L .A.
27:19
with that first amplifier I made, and my thought
27:23
was an amplifier should be compact and easy to
27:27
carry, but it has to sound good. Because at that
27:30
time, that's when they were starting making amplifiers
27:32
so big you had to stack all the pieces and have
27:35
a truck to move. I made this one, and they took
27:38
it to whatever the big store was in there in
27:41
L .A. And they brought it into the store and
27:44
they said, how do you like that? The guy said,
27:46
I sure like the looks of it. He says, is that
27:49
solid state or is that tubes? I said, no, it's
27:52
tube. Well, he says, solid state is a new thing.
27:55
That's what we want. That's before they found
27:57
out they didn't like the solid state. So real
28:00
quick. So when you joined Moserite, it was in
28:05
the fall of 1965. Yeah, because he was still
28:08
in another building halfway. Oh, halfway. Oh,
28:11
so they were starting to move from 1500 to 1424.
28:16
Yeah. One was on the north side of the railroad
28:18
tracks, the other on the south side. He ended
28:20
up on. Yeah. But in the meantime, everybody's
28:25
talking solid state. The purchaser to get the
28:29
parts for the guitars and stuff and the wood
28:32
and whatever. He knew something about electronics,
28:36
too. And I said, here's what we need. I'd make
28:39
him a list of stuff, and he'd go get it for me.
28:42
And he brought me some transistors and a few
28:46
things like that, whatever I needed. Who was
28:48
that? His name was Gilstrap. Oh, Kenny Gilstrap.
28:53
Yeah. Okay, yeah. He was the branch manager.
28:56
He brought me anything I wanted. And you know
28:59
what they give me all the time I wanted, no hurry,
29:03
just do whatever you feel like it. You can make
29:06
it upside down or sideways, whatever you think.
29:10
They give me a free hand to it completely. That's
29:13
cool. Yeah, when they said make anything you
29:16
want, what kind of prototypes were you making?
29:19
All I made actually was amplifiers and the fuzz
29:25
right. Oh, okay. Didn't make anything else that
29:28
I can remember. Basically, we had about eight
29:31
models of amplifiers, but we never did put in
29:36
production all of them. Yeah. The main one was
29:39
a 400 model. Now, what the salesman did is they
29:44
would take whatever number of it was, and that's
29:48
what they're going to sell for, 400 bucks. We
29:51
have a model 400. It has one 15 -inch speaker
29:55
in the bottom, and it has the regular two rolls
30:00
with the fuzz right in there and the tremolo
30:04
and all that stuff. Then we made a model that
30:08
was called the 1000. It was a stack, like a stack,
30:14
only there's only one piece. It was two 15 -inch
30:17
speakers in it. It was 100 watts. The other one,
30:21
I think, was 40 watts. The 400, I think, was
30:25
40 watts. And that was 100 watts for the big
30:30
one. Then we made a bass amp. All of that coming
30:36
bass or guitar amp. The bass amp doesn't have
30:40
the fuzz ride in it or all of the other stuff.
30:44
Yeah. We made one in that same. box, the same
30:52
wood. And we put only the electronics in it.
30:57
And I forget what we called it. But what it would
31:01
do is plug into the extra speaker outlet on the
31:07
main unit. And in itself created 100 watts. So
31:13
in other words, the main unit had 100 watts.
31:16
We didn't go higher than 100 watts. But 100 watts
31:21
went to the big ones. And what this was, was
31:27
another one had two speakers instead of one.
31:30
Just having two speakers really makes it louder.
31:33
It has only a power amp in it. Didn't have tone
31:37
controls or anything like that. It's made to
31:41
fit and plug into the master amplifier. It only
31:45
has a load of two speakers, and then you've got
31:48
the extra box. It has its load taken with the
31:51
extra amplifier, but there's no controls on it.
31:55
And I forget what we called it. I think we called
31:58
it a 900, it could be. We were shaking the rafters
32:03
off of that building. My ears run for weeks.
32:09
Wow. We did sell a few. That was eight 15 -inch
32:13
speakers. Just the speaker alone was $100. You
32:17
couldn't burn one out. I mean, really good sounding.
32:21
Anyway, in the meantime, going back for a minute
32:25
to the steel guitar player that I met in El Monte.
32:28
He had a fuzz ride. No, no, that was a... Fuzz
32:32
tone. The Gibson Maestro Fuzz Tone. Maestro Fuzz,
32:35
yeah. That's what that was. He said he had one
32:38
of those, and he likes it, but he said there
32:40
was two things he didn't like about it. He says,
32:43
why don't you design one that fixes that? But
32:46
I'm working there at Bullseye. He'd already moved
32:49
to Bakersfield, my steel guitar player. And he
32:54
said, you need to make one that... have better
32:59
sustain on the high strings. He liked to get
33:04
a violin sound. When you put it on a cement floor,
33:07
it wouldn't work as well. And he says, how about
33:10
you making something that'll fix that? I said,
33:13
well, I guess we'll do it. So the guy that buys
33:17
all of the materials went over and bought me
33:19
one to look at from the Gibson, and I didn't
33:23
copy the circuit. I had to find out what they
33:25
were doing. So I put it on the oscilloscope,
33:28
which means you're putting a signal into it,
33:31
and you can see the signal on the oscilloscope,
33:33
which is like a television for music. I looked
33:36
to see what kind of signal that that was doing
33:40
to it, and actually it was a simple answer. You're
33:44
overdriving everything, and that makes its shape
33:47
different. Instead of being a smooth, it has
33:50
sharp corners and it shapes. You see the lines
33:53
that had sharp corners on the oscilloscope. And
33:57
I thought, uh -huh, I see what it does. I opened
34:01
it up to see what was inside, and it was made
34:04
with transistors. And so I started putting together
34:08
some stuff. I just figured all that's doing is
34:11
distorting it. It's overdriving it. Too much
34:14
signal into it, and that's why it's doing that.
34:16
Yeah. When I knew that was happening, I didn't
34:21
need the other one anymore. So I didn't really
34:24
copy the other one. I just copied the idea of
34:26
having a fuzz. And I come up with that. And at
34:30
that same time, I'm making amplifiers with transistors
34:36
also. We made a thousand a month of those fuzz
34:39
tunnels until he had to go out of business for
34:43
another reason. The Fuzzrite, right? The Fuzzrites.
34:46
That's what you called it? For about, I think
34:48
it was about four years that we made those. And
34:51
that's what you came up with the name, right?
34:53
That was your idea. Yeah. That's cool. I did
34:56
pretty good at making up names. Yeah. I'm illiterate,
34:59
too. That's rough. Maybe that's why I can think
35:02
of stuff. I think I found the guy's name, Leo
35:07
LeBlanc. Leo LeBlanc. That was the steel guitar
35:09
player, right? Yes. Yes, yes, yes. Yeah. That's
35:13
a cool fact, too, because you originally made
35:15
the fuzz right for steel guitar, not electric
35:18
guitar. And most people don't know that. That's
35:21
right. Well, I made it to do what he wanted it
35:25
to do. Not in particular, but it happened to
35:28
be a steel guitar that he tried it on and said,
35:31
that's fantastic. Yeah. And I've read they used
35:37
it on an Iron Butterfly song in Agatha DeVita
35:40
that made this. That pedal really popular. And
35:44
Buck Owens used it on Who's Gonna Mow Your Grass.
35:47
So a lot of people have used that pedal. It's
35:50
a legendary pedal. People copy it from everywhere,
35:53
want to make it. It's really cool that you invented
35:56
something that's been all around the world, your
35:59
sound, and on lots of different albums. Well,
36:02
when I used to use a computer, a guy told me
36:06
one time, why don't you look yourself up? And
36:08
man, I was everywhere. I even had a guy send
36:13
me a letter from Russia, a guitar player. He
36:16
sent me a letter on the internet telling me what
36:19
a fantastic man that I am to make such a beautiful
36:23
instrument. I also read that Andy Mosley would
36:26
go to the Sunset Strip and go to Whiskey A Go
36:30
-Go and try to give the pedal out to guitarists
36:33
to show them the fuzz right. That could be. I
36:36
didn't know that. But he could kind of be the
36:41
manager when Simi was out running around with
36:45
ladies and whatever he wanted to do and go on
36:49
trips here and there. It kind of put him out
36:52
of business by making so much money, he thought
36:56
it would not end. What was he like? Simi was
36:59
really a nice person. We got along great. He
37:03
was a church person sometimes. He would go in
37:09
churches and do singing and playing. And then
37:12
sometimes he would go out and have a beer with
37:15
somebody, which depends on what church you're
37:17
with, if that's okay or not. It didn't sit good,
37:21
but he had problems with his wife at times and
37:25
just lots of stuff. Well, what was he like as
37:28
a boss? Very lenient. What he wanted to do was
37:33
he designed, he was a good designer. He would
37:37
show people what it was, and he'd have his help
37:40
do it. He might make the first one, but then
37:42
he would say, this is what we want now. And he
37:45
would have the guy that worked the wood shop
37:47
doing it, and the guy that did the paint doing
37:50
it just right. And Simi could do any of that
37:55
himself, because he made them all himself for
37:57
many years. Yeah. But there, he would just tell
38:01
them what he wanted. There's one thing, but I
38:04
don't think I'll mention that. Don't write it
38:06
down. He was very friendly with everybody else's
38:11
wife. That was a situation that one was really
38:16
bad with him. I see. Yeah. That would cause a
38:20
lot of social problems if that happened. Absolutely.
38:24
And not only that, he claimed to be a Christian
38:28
going to church regularly. I will not add to
38:31
that. Just common sense. But yeah, he had situation
38:39
problems with families that way. Wow. So I had
38:46
another question. So when you got there, I think
38:50
they had just purchased Dobro, right? Yes. So
38:55
a lot of people don't know. I think most people
38:58
have seen a resonator. It's a metal guitar. acoustic
39:02
guitar, all made of metal. It was really popular
39:06
before amplifiers were easily able to be made
39:09
because it was so much louder, it resonated.
39:12
And that was invented in Taft by the Dopiera
39:15
brothers, right? Rudy Dopiera and his brothers
39:18
had a company that started that. That's right.
39:22
Most people don't know that it comes right from
39:25
Taft, which is right really close to Bakersfield.
39:28
Let me give you the complete story. Oh, I'd love
39:31
to hear it. Okay. I had worked there already
39:35
about maybe a year when he bought that company.
39:40
Demi's thought was he was going to take the Dobro
39:44
just as it is. Instead of putting the metal top
39:48
on it, he was going to make it wood and make
39:51
it a solid body guitar out of wood and like a
39:57
Gibson, you know, not electric. Yeah. And that's
40:03
what he was going to do. I heard that they really
40:07
wanted the machines that they had, too, at the
40:10
factory. Exactly. That's what he wanted was a
40:12
machine to form it in the wood and glue it and
40:17
everything. That's what they wanted. One day
40:19
he realized he wasn't doing much. And there's
40:23
all of these parts for guitars in there. And
40:27
he had put me in charge of that to put them all
40:30
together. So that's what I did. I took a vacation
40:33
from making amplifiers. By that time, I had made
40:37
several of them that we were selling. And we
40:41
could make them 10 at a time. So I had some questions
40:46
about some of the Mosride amps. So I guess there
40:49
was four different types. There was the ones
40:52
that you made. That all say Moserite Electronics,
40:56
right? That's in a small label somewhere. It
41:00
says the electronics in the back. Okay. And then
41:04
there was some of the tube amps that you made
41:07
that weren't really sold. They were more like
41:09
prototypes, right? Well, we had two inventors
41:13
for that, too. They had some that I made and
41:16
some that another guy made. Howard Dumble? Howard
41:19
Dumble. He made some first, and then they couldn't
41:22
get along because Simi wanted to make all the
41:26
money and told him to get lost. So he started
41:30
making his own. He made a real good one that
41:32
people, they were paying him, what, $3 ,000 or
41:35
$4 ,000 for one that he made. Yeah. Yeah, his
41:39
amps got really popular, but he only made a couple,
41:43
a few a year. He was very reclusive. Yeah. I
41:46
was wondering what he was like when he was working
41:48
at Mose Ray. When I got hired there, I was there
41:51
about a week or two, and he come walking in,
41:54
and I met him. So he didn't care that I was there.
41:59
The only thing, though, is there was a schematic
42:02
for the one he made, and Andy gave a copy of
42:07
that. to me to look at it to see if I wanted
42:11
to see it. And I said, yeah, I'll look at it.
42:13
And at that time, it was before he set my shop
42:17
up in the building there where they're making
42:20
guitars. I had rented a house and I had a room
42:24
that I made a little room in there for me to
42:28
make amplifiers. I had that schematic there,
42:32
the drawing, you know, it was up on the wall
42:34
by my workbench. Then he come into my house that
42:40
day, and he seen that, and he was madder than
42:44
the wet hen because that's his design. He thought
42:47
I was stealing it. Oh. I didn't ask to look at
42:51
it, and I didn't want to look at it because I
42:53
didn't need to look at it. I knew what was in
42:57
there already. Yeah. Because he copied Fender,
43:00
and I'd worked on Fenders myself. So they was
43:04
actually the same as the Fender except for a
43:06
couple of things on the tone. He had a better
43:09
tone than Fender did. And that's what those guys
43:13
were wanting. But they wanted a full blast thing,
43:16
you know, where they can play it real loud and
43:18
have it sound a certain way. He was only mad
43:20
for a minute. Yeah. And so because he was really
43:26
mad because they had made a deal with him. And
43:31
they didn't follow it up. It would have been
43:33
a deal that would have been good for everybody.
43:36
Now, I didn't care what kind of deals. If I was
43:39
hearing them paying me, I just made them. Yeah.
43:43
Simi, he had a contract with Adventures. And
43:46
it was a hard contract. It was good to start
43:49
with. That they had to buy so many dollars worth
43:54
of guitars every month. That way the workers
43:58
would be working all the time, and they would
44:01
make those guitars. And then the Ventures now
44:04
is a corporation now, besides their music. Yeah.
44:08
They're having to pay semi for every guitar that
44:12
they have in their warehouse. And it should have
44:15
been everyone that sells. It was everyone in
44:18
their warehouse, and the warehouse got fuller
44:21
and fuller and fuller, and people quit buying
44:24
them. And they're still having to pay Simi for
44:29
these guitars that there was hundreds of them,
44:32
literally. Wow. In two different places that
44:36
they had that stuff stored. And nobody was buying
44:38
it. That caused some problems. And Simi didn't
44:42
want to break the contract. Because at that time
44:46
now, he's spending money like he's a millionaire.
44:48
You know, he had a Cadillac, what was a big one
44:53
at that time? Eldorado? Eldorado, I think it
44:56
was, yeah. Something like that. He was driving
44:59
that, and he didn't want to give that up. He
45:01
didn't want to give up all of his stuff. He should
45:04
have changed his way of life. He ended up not
45:09
having any money because there was a lot of problems
45:12
in that. He couldn't even pay the people working
45:15
there. Wow. See, now that he's dead, we can say
45:20
this. It got to where on payday, The guy in charge
45:25
of that, bookkeeper, he'd come down, and everybody
45:30
working there would get their check and advised
45:33
to go and get it cashed now. He'd give it to
45:37
them right after lunchtime, and this is your
45:39
lunchtime, go cash this check now. And it got
45:44
to where it was getting really out of hand. He
45:48
didn't have enough money in the bank to work
45:50
with any check. Another problem was another guy
45:53
that was the person that did the purchasing.
45:56
I won't mention his name, but he was a purchasing
45:59
agent to buy all of the parts that goes into
46:05
anything. The wood, the tone controls, the strings,
46:16
everything that he had to buy. to make those.
46:22
And they were still trying to make them, and
46:24
they did make them, but now they didn't have
46:27
money to pay the supplier of the parts. The guy
46:32
that used to buy the stuff overbought a lot of
46:36
stuff. And what that causes is they have a bunch
46:41
of that particular item in the shelf, but they
46:46
can't get wood because they didn't pay their
46:48
bill. They didn't overbuy on wood. So they've
46:53
got volume controls, you know, strings and frets
46:58
and everything you can think of to build a guitar
47:01
except the wood. That's pretty important. The
47:06
main part of it. What this guy was doing is somebody
47:09
say they needed a hundred screws of a certain
47:12
size. He would get on the phone and he would
47:16
say, we need a thousand screws. Or it might be
47:20
the knobs that go on the tone control. A hundred
47:24
of those right now today, but they only needed
47:28
ten. That's all they put together. And what they
47:30
did, he was overbuying parts, everything that
47:33
goes on to it, which included the lumber. And
47:36
he could not get any more of anything till he
47:39
paid bills. He owed not only everything else
47:44
and not paying his people, he wasn't paying anybody
47:47
he was buying materials from. So that put him
47:51
out of business. And this was the person that
47:56
did the purchasing. He was pocketing it for getting
47:59
a special $50 or $20 or something like that because
48:04
he made a big... A kickback? Kickback, that's
48:08
it. Who was in charge of purchasing? Well, I
48:12
don't know if he's still alive or not. That was
48:14
Gil Sapp. He and I was the reason we started
48:20
the... That's when Simi blew up. We had a guy
48:25
that was a good salesman. That was a good salesman
48:28
with Moserite. We started Rosak. Yeah. That was
48:33
a guy named Rosenberg. Morris Rosenberg and Ben
48:37
Sacco. Yep. And that's funny because Moserite
48:41
is a mixture of two names, right? Semi -Mosley
48:44
and Reverend Ray Boatwright. And Roszak is as
48:48
well, to mix Rosenberg and Sacco. Yeah, and one
48:52
of them is a Jew, and the other one is, he was
48:58
Catholic. They had a company called the Sierra
49:01
Bag Company, and they made burlap sacks. Then
49:05
they expanded to the Sierra Iron and Metal Company.
49:08
That's because of this salesman that we got from
49:12
the Moserite Company. He was a salesman for the
49:15
whole country. Ralph Scafidi? Yeah. Yeah. He
49:18
was Mary Osborne's husband. Yes. And we were
49:22
friends. Amazing trumpet player, right? Yes.
49:26
He was a very good musician. But he had some
49:32
attitude sometimes that was pretty bad. Oh, boy.
49:35
But anyway, yeah, he was a salesman. Went all
49:39
over the United States. He had a brother back
49:41
near New York, and they were selling our stuff
49:46
back there, too. Ralph was a little bit shady.
49:49
He was selling stuff out the back door, and so
49:51
was Gilsap. And he was doing that at Moserite.
49:56
selling stuff out the back door. Parts or a guitar,
50:00
but even his brother was selling. He opened a
50:06
music store, Simi's brother. Oh, Andy? Andy,
50:09
yeah. Started a music store, was selling those
50:11
guitars. He was taking them out, putting them
50:14
in his store, but not paying for them. Oh, wow.
50:18
Yeah, Gene Moles was, he was the head one to...
50:24
check the quality of the guitars and amplifiers,
50:28
actually. We got along good, too. That's great.
50:32
He was a good musician, too. They had me doing
50:37
dubs. Simi had me doing dubs for his label, his
50:43
record label. Yeah. They had me playing bass
50:47
when they would do the dubs on them. Oh, that's
50:49
cool. And they would take them to the big people
50:52
and have them do it. And they would play the
50:53
bass exactly the way I played it. And I didn't
50:58
get paid for it at all. Oh, man. But I had a
51:01
lot of fun playing. That's good, at least. I
51:04
do have some questions about Roszak, okay? Because
51:08
at Roszak, you started making a lot of different
51:13
effects, right? After the fuzz right, I guess
51:18
the successor is the new fuzz, right? Could you
51:20
tell me about that? The fuzz right I made for
51:25
Simi, that one's because somebody asked me to
51:28
do it. From that point, everything that I made
51:31
was trying to see how many ways I could make
51:34
one. When we went to ROSAC, I made a few items,
51:38
guitar amps. I made a couple of PA heads, which...
51:44
Went pretty good. Some people liked them. I put
51:46
a lot of meters on it that made it look real.
51:49
Because this stuff wasn't for professional. It
51:51
was for the amateur anyway. Okay, yeah. You know,
51:55
to be truthful. But a professional could use
51:58
them, and some did. I started out in a chicken
52:02
coop at the... Brundage Lane? Brundage Lane,
52:07
uh -huh. That was part of the people that made
52:11
the sacks. You know, the bags. The Sierra Bag
52:16
Company. I call it chicken coop because at one
52:19
time they was growing chickens in there. But
52:23
it was a way, we didn't have a big room to do
52:26
anything in. All we did was make, we started
52:28
out making fuzz sounds. And I got to thinking,
52:32
what are the, what can I do with a fuzz now?
52:35
Let's try that. Somewhere along the line there,
52:38
we made the wah pedals. That was a big sale.
52:43
For everybody. They had wah -wah pedals. It was
52:45
really nice. I decided, well, why don't we make
52:48
some? And we did. Then I got the idea. Let's
52:53
put a fuzz tone inside a wah -wah pedal and see
52:56
what happens. The new wah -fuzz. The new wah
52:59
-fuzz. Yeah. And it did attract attention. Some
53:03
people like that. They get that buzzy sound and
53:06
then wah -wah -wah along with it. I don't know
53:08
of any records that they had that on there. They
53:10
probably did because I don't listen. I didn't
53:14
listen to radio a lot back then. I didn't know
53:17
what was new. I still don't on radio. The fuzz
53:21
was. The Nuwa fuzz. Yeah, that was cast aluminum.
53:28
Now, the casting, you can put it inside of something
53:33
that's metal and make it a cast, but they have
53:35
a sand casting, they call it. Yeah. Sand casting,
53:38
yeah. And there was a place in Bakersfield that
53:42
made sprinklers for the farmers. So where the
53:47
thing would go is shoot water about 50 feet in
53:51
those aluminum. So they was making those aluminum
53:54
things. And yeah, that's something that one thing
53:58
Gilstrap was good at is finding people that would
54:00
do stuff. He went over there and they made us
54:03
some for the iron butterfly. That's another one.
54:08
Iron Butterfly. It had a wah pedal and a fuzz
54:11
in it. Yeah, and it had the logo on it, right?
54:13
The band's logo. Yeah. And they were the band
54:16
that first used the fuzz right on it. Yeah. Made
54:21
it popular, at least. Not only that, that name
54:25
came out of the air with me. I didn't even think
54:28
about it. I'd looked at it, and I know I'd heard
54:32
the name Iron Butterfly somewhere. And I didn't
54:37
even think of them being a band. I just heard
54:40
that. And I said, let's call it an Iron Butterfly.
54:45
So he got on the phone and called them, those
54:48
people. He says, sure, we can use their name.
54:52
Wow. I mean, we made a big hit with that. That's
54:56
cool. But our company was not in good shape.
55:00
It was just the... Gil Straff was dishonest in
55:04
so many ways, you just couldn't stay in business.
55:08
Oh, man. Yeah. What about the distortion blender?
55:12
That sounds like a cool pedal. What was that?
55:15
Distortion blender. Yeah, that was another way
55:17
of calling it a fuzz. Okay. It worked. So the
55:23
new fuzz, you added a tone control, right? That
55:26
was the difference between the fuzz ride and
55:28
the new fuzz? Rozak went out of business. And
55:33
then after that, you formed Sangill Amplifiers,
55:37
right? Was that your next venture? Yeah, that
55:39
was Gilstrap and these. Another combination of
55:43
two names. Yeah. That's the third one. Okay.
55:46
So what was that company like? How did that work?
55:50
Didn't last too long, maybe a couple of years.
55:54
We had it in Bakersfield. uh out way out on the
56:00
west part of south of town uh when there used
56:04
to be just jackrabbits out there now they got
56:07
all these hospitals after that you had a music
56:11
store right i didn't do that or uh i guess service
56:16
center i guess i'm saying this wrong sander amplifier
56:19
and guitar service center showroom i have a repair
56:22
shop okay repair shop yeah that didn't last too
56:27
long All right. But you stayed, I guess, after
56:32
after Sandgill Amplifiers, you were you were
56:35
doing repairs, right? What were you up to? I
56:38
gave it's when I gave up being a partner. No
56:42
more partners in my businesses. The one before
56:45
Sandgill. Yeah, I was a partner there. OK. And
56:51
then then it was just me and Gilstrap on the
56:55
Sandgill partners. And that's when I learned
56:58
that he was the biggest crook I ever seen in
57:01
my life. And we got one of the big singers down
57:08
near Hollywood there that would give us money
57:11
to go to business, to make it big. So some money
57:15
was put into that business. My partner had a
57:18
way of getting the money. That flopped. We did
57:22
it for two years. One year in Bakersfield, and
57:25
then we moved down to the L .A. area near the
57:28
ocean at another place because the people that
57:31
put the money into it wanted to see what we was
57:33
doing. We had that one guy just stealing left
57:37
and right. Wow. And he was getting a bigger salary
57:41
than me, too. He did that on a secret. Yeah.
57:45
I was starving to death, and he was feeding the
57:47
family. That's frustrating. I'm sorry about that.
57:50
So anyway, that's when I said, no more. No more
57:56
helpers. I will do the whole thing or it won't
57:59
get done. And I have succeeded at that. And that's
58:04
when you started Sander Electronics? Yep. That's
58:07
cool. Yeah. And I moved a couple of times with
58:13
that. And that's when the realtor had me go up
58:18
into the shopping center that was up on the hill
58:22
on the east side there, up in there. And that
58:29
didn't work out. The overhead was just so much.
58:33
And I made a mistake and I hired somebody for
58:36
a week to help me. Then his wife got mad because
58:38
I couldn't pay him. I was in trouble. So no more,
58:46
no more. See, with Bob Shade, we are not partners.
58:53
Is he the one from Hallmark? Yeah, he's from
58:58
Hallmark. Well, see, he knew the same people
59:01
that I knew with Simi. Because the people that
59:05
made Hallmark used to work for Simi. Bob and
59:08
I, we're not. Actually, we're not in this together.
59:13
We are together, but I have a word for it, and
59:18
I can't get it up right now. He had been in Bakersfield
59:22
in my shop. That's where we met years ago, many
59:26
years ago. My last shop in Bakersfield, and that
59:29
was in the east side of town. It was in a garage.
59:34
And that's where I had my center amplifier when
59:37
I started going just alone. You know, I'm 88
59:42
years old, and I'm in the process of making some
59:49
more of the fuzz units. That's cool. But I am
59:58
a little bit restricted because of not big buildings.
1:00:02
And my metal shop is that 1 to 10 building there.
1:00:09
And it's so full of equipment that I have to
1:00:13
open the door to use it. And I worked on that
1:00:18
yesterday, but I got a guitar out there. The
1:00:24
guy's not in a hurry, so that's not a problem.
1:00:26
I get a lot. Mostly it's people that are just
1:00:30
buying guitars just to have one. Of course, I'm
1:00:34
guilty of that too. I've got, I don't know. four
1:00:38
or five electric ones. I only have one acoustic,
1:00:42
and I've got two basses. Actually, I guess, since
1:00:49
I met Bob, we have come up with more units, different
1:00:53
kinds. He was getting some ideas, and I was getting
1:00:57
some ideas, and I put them together, and that's
1:00:59
what we come up with. I've got one of them behind
1:01:02
you in that cabinet there. I think you can see
1:01:06
it with three knobs on it. Oh, yeah, the fuzz
1:01:09
blender. That looks cool. That is kind of neat
1:01:14
because most of the fuzz tones, it's all this
1:01:20
fuzzy sound, no matter what you do with it. You
1:01:24
know, it's oh, oh, whatever. But this one here,
1:01:28
you can blend it in. Oh, that's cool. You can
1:01:31
have a, you know, like a speaker will go bad
1:01:34
sometimes and it just has a little hiss in it.
1:01:37
You can get that hiss. There's a little bit with
1:01:40
that because you have control of it. And some
1:01:43
people bought it. I got to make some more regular
1:01:47
ones now. I tried to, but then the rain came
1:01:51
and I'm stopped right in the middle. One of my
1:01:55
buildings out there is my sheet metal shop. You
1:01:58
know, it's got... You got the brake that bends
1:02:01
them. Oh, that's cool. You got a shear that cuts
1:02:04
them. I got a punch press that I can put different
1:02:09
size of dies in it and punch holes that are square
1:02:12
or rectangle or any other way. Wow. Yeah. And
1:02:16
I got them one by one over the years. And right
1:02:21
now I'm still to be building some. For our next
1:02:25
order here of fuzz units. Oh, yeah, the fuzz
1:02:30
rights, right? Yeah. Don't know what it'll be
1:02:36
called, but it'll be of that. Awesome. So I'm
1:02:40
still doing that, and I got another shed that
1:02:44
has a lot of woodworking tools and saws that
1:02:47
I have out in the carport. I had buildings in
1:02:52
Bakersfield. I don't know if it means anything.
1:02:55
I drove bus for 11 years. Yeah. I started with
1:03:00
school bus. So then I went to work for another
1:03:04
charter bus company. When you look back at your
1:03:09
career, do you have a favorite invention? I don't
1:03:14
think anyone in particular. There's just, I don't
1:03:18
know. See, I believe in God. God has... given
1:03:24
me ideas that were really good. I couldn't have
1:03:30
thought of those things all by myself. But, you
1:03:34
know, I have too many friends that I was playing
1:03:38
music with in all these years. One by one, they're
1:03:44
in the grave. And so I have... I get to play
1:03:51
bass at the Senior Center for the old people.
1:03:55
That's great. And I only get to play rhythm guitar
1:04:01
in church because they're playing the new kind
1:04:03
of music, which is awful. That's terrible stuff.
1:04:09
What's the new kind? Huh? What's the new kind
1:04:12
are they playing? It's like having three notes
1:04:17
in a song. Do that for an hour. Same five words
1:04:26
going for 20 minutes. And I tell them, I say,
1:04:32
the people that wrote those songs need a music
1:04:34
lesson. They don't believe me. But they're young
1:04:38
people doing the songs. That's awesome that you're
1:04:44
still playing bass every Sunday. And I think
1:04:48
it's cool, we talked about it earlier, that you're
1:04:50
making these pedals for Heritage and you're still
1:04:52
able to make your designs that you invented and
1:04:56
share them with the world. That's awesome. Thank
1:04:58
you for letting me interview you. I really appreciate
1:05:00
it. Yeah, and not only that, I make the metal
1:05:03
can that they're made in. I have the machines
1:05:06
to do that. Wow. Because, you know, when we first...
1:05:12
Started doing reissues of those after the, you
1:05:17
know, the two businesses that we was in that
1:05:20
was big. Yeah, Rozak and Moserack. Yeah, after
1:05:24
those was out of business. I went on my own then.
1:05:28
But anyway, what's his name at the music store
1:05:32
down there? The old music store. Artie? Artie,
1:05:37
yeah. He one day says, why don't you make us
1:05:42
about 50 of those fuzz tones? And I thought,
1:05:45
hey, that's an idea. So I made him 50 of them,
1:05:48
and I made the metal can to go in and everything.
1:05:51
And I had to get the wording on it made from
1:05:56
a place. Otherwise, I made the whole thing. And
1:05:59
then he called back and one or another. I think
1:06:03
we made 100 on the first. No, we made 50, and
1:06:06
then we made 100 of them for him. That's awesome.
1:06:10
And then it wasn't too long after that when I
1:06:13
moved up here is when Bob called me one day.
1:06:17
He said, I met you in your office. He said, I'd
1:06:22
like to make a deal with you here. And we did.
1:06:26
We came up with a deal that was really nice.
1:06:29
I don't know, five or six different kinds since
1:06:32
I've made, since I've been with him the last
1:06:35
20 years. And I've got to make some more of them.
1:06:39
I say got to, well, I get to. I feel honored
1:06:44
to even meet you. It's so cool. Well, that makes
1:06:48
me feel, I don't know how, but I feel good. You
1:06:54
ready? I'm ready. All right, let it go, Joe.