Latest / Storied Account with Jen Jumba / Eve J. Chung: The Young Will Remember
Transcript
- Jennifer Jumba: This is Story to Count with Jen Jumba. In conversations with writers, something magical happens. And as readers, we begin to see them as human beings and not just the name on the spine of a book. My hope is through these conversations, you learn about their craft and them as a person you'll become like me. Fiercely loyal, want to read their current book, entire backlist, any future book or any book they blurb. And when you see their name, you'll want to support them. not only as incredible storytellers, but also the thoughtful individuals you have come to know. I'm super excited because my guest today is Yijie Chung. She is a Taiwanese American lawyer and women's human rights specialist. She's worked on a range of issues, including torture, sexual violence, contemporary forms of slavery, and discriminatory legislation. Her writing is inspired by social justice movements. and the continued struggle for equality and fundamental freedoms worldwide. I was lucky enough to a panel with Eve when her debut novel, The Daughters of Shang Dong came out, found it to be one of the most beautiful stories I have ever read. Her new book, The Young Will Remember is just as stunning in capturing a moment in history through firsthand experience with a war correspondent named Ellie Chang. Yujie Chang lives in New York with her husband, two children and two dogs. I'm so excited that you're here to talk about your brand new book that publishes this week, The Young Will Remember. So can you give us a little introduction to this book? Eve J. Chung: Yes, thank you so much for having me and also thank you so much for your early support. I remember you as one of the first people who was so enthusiastic about Daughters of San Dong and I really appreciate that, especially as a new author. So The Young Will Remember is my second book and it is about a Chinese slash Taiwanese American correspondent who goes to cover a pivotal battle. ⁓ plane gets shot down over North Korea and she gets stranded there and relies on help from ⁓ two Korean women ⁓ to her way back to essentially American territory during that war when battle lines are moving very quickly and there are lot of ⁓ life-threatening situations all her so Yeah, I mean was It was an intense project Jennifer Jumba: can imagine because it was intense reading it. And you did a wonderful job of making me feel as the reader that I was right alongside with Ellie as she's navigating all of these things. And first all, you're capturing this moment in history, 1950. So ⁓ where did you the idea to want to tell this story? mean, there's so many things happening in the world and so many pieces of history. What made you choose this in particular? Eve J. Chung: Mm. So I picked the North Korean setting because my husband is half Korean and grandfather was Pyongyang and he a pastor and he actually fled Pyongyang shortly after World War II. So I ⁓ picked time because was such an important moment in Chinese, Korean and American history. ⁓ and the aftermath of this particular war still influences our geopolitics today. Jennifer Jumba: Yeah, it is so well done. think it's Brene Brown says that it's hard to hate people up close. And what you've really done with this book is you've taken and given a human name and a face to the situation she finds herself in. She's relying on the support of two North Korean women. Can you introduce us to ⁓ Aimo what is referred to as Emma? Eve J. Chung: Yeah. Yes, so when I first started thinking about this story, I imagined it only between Ellie and Emma. So I think a lot about mothers in war. So I wanted this to focus on motherhood. And I often tell people the initial title, which is not a good title, but in my head, when I was thinking it, I thought of the changeling in part because Ellie sort of takes the place of another woman's daughter. And so Jennifer Jumba: Yes. Eve J. Chung: It focused so much on them, but when I was writing it, the character who Ellie calls Imo just kind of inserted herself. And was really interesting because I didn't really envision a big role for her. And for writing process, I never outline. So I have a vague idea. And usually I know like the place. I know where want the story to end, but I don't really know anything in between. So as I was Imo just became bigger and bigger person and I feel like that's true to her personality too. She kind of just inserts herself in places and demands attention. she a complexity to the story that I really loved and I didn't anticipate. So Emo for back when we meet her, she is Pastor Peg's So when Ellie lands this town called Kanye, which is very close to the Chinese border, ⁓ Jennifer Jumba: Yes. Eve J. Chung: It's Emma who mistakes her for her daughter essentially at first and her to the home that she's staying in, which is Pastor Paik's house. And Pastor Paik, I developed lot with the idea of my husband's grandfather in mind. So I interviewed my mother-in-law. I also interviewed my husband who did know his grandfather. grandfather already passed away, but Emo is Pastor Paik's wife. who initially is very hostile to Ellie. we kind of find out why as the story progresses, but in contrast to Pastor Pig, who's just this incredibly friendly, curious man actually ⁓ excited there an English speaker in his house. Prior to researching this book, didn't know anything about the Christian presence ⁓ in North Korea. So that really surprised me as I did my research. Jennifer Jumba: It surprised me too. And I think it's a wonderful way to introduce us to parts of history that we often don't learn about. And I think what ends up happening, and I hope for other people who are reading this too, that this kind of inspires them to learn even more about that particular time period in history, because I did not realize Christianity was such a big deal in that part of the world. And to your point, when you think about a pastor's wife, certainly is not who comes to mind. Eve J. Chung: Mm-hmm. Jennifer Jumba: Right? You normally would think of somebody who's a little bit kinder and a little bit more benevolent, but she certainly has a determination about her and a spirit about her. And at the same time, you think about Emma, mistakes her Ellie, mistakes Ellie for her being her daughter and actually ends up in part saving her life because after the plane gets shot down, know, soldiers are coming and approaching. Eve J. Chung: you Mm-hmm. Jennifer Jumba: And Emma makes this big deal like, this is my daughter who I haven't seen in years. She was taken away. So it saves her life. And then Ellie finds herself in a completely different house than she grew up in, different culture and different traditions, and trying figure out how she's going to get back so that she can get back home. Eve J. Chung: Yes. It was kind of so the two-woman contrast and if you read my I mean I know you read my first book but if readers have read my first book I see parts of emo kind of like Dee the sister in my first book where you know she's a survivor and she is a very strong person and I think she can be very rough but she also cares a lot. Like she has a very strong sense of justice and fairness, I think initially gets lost when you just meet her very, very abrasive personality. Jennifer Jumba: Right, yeah, first impressions would not lend themselves to thinking that she was incredibly kind. But I think the great thing about storytelling is that you give us the ability as readers to kind of see inside, their brain, their heart, their soul in terms of, why they're choosing to say what they're saying or do what they're doing, which I think is a wonderful thing. And, you know, it brings about complicated feelings for Ellie, because technically she's now behind enemy lines, in this Eve J. Chung: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Jennifer Jumba: in this part of the world. at the same time, they're extending her, the warmth of their house and their hospitality and their food and shelter, know, basic Maslov's, know, hierarchy of needs. Eve J. Chung: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I think Ellie at least has, I call her a woman between worlds. ⁓ I Ellie goes into it at least, you know, she first meets Emma, she makes a remark that she looks like someone who could be my mom. ⁓ And so I do think that to her when she sees or she thinks that death is Jennifer Jumba: you. Mm-hmm. Eve J. Chung: And I did want to highlight that relationship of these two people who are on the opposite side of a war, but can nevertheless develop just a friendship, but almost a familial relationship just on, you know, we're together. And I think a lot times people don't talk enough face to face. I think things are very different when you meet someone in the flesh. What you might, I guess you're, I don't know, I just think right now, especially in this age, there's a lot of tendency to be very cruel in like an online space and say things that you would never say to a person, you know, if you meet them face to face. That and I also think there's just something that's different when you're meeting someone and I think that's, I think we need more of that. Jennifer Jumba: face to face for fear getting punched, right? Eve J. Chung: so many parts of world. Jennifer Jumba: Absolutely agreed. And I also was struck by the sense of community that's developed. And we see this throughout history when times are tough, see essentially revealed and you see people really come together and ⁓ truly see the very worst, the very best of people. And so ⁓ that community that they find themselves in as to whether or not they should stay in that town because who's and when are they approaching? Eve J. Chung: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Jennifer Jumba: creates an enormous amount of tension. Even though I know how the situation ends, I'm on the edge of my seat in this book. Eve J. Chung: Mm-hmm. Okay, thank you, thank you. Yeah, so there is, I wanted to emphasize women's communities, especially women's communities in a wartime setting. And part of what I wanted to do with this book is show of the various ways that women contribute ⁓ are active participants in these processes, because I think those stories ⁓ lost in history. ⁓ think in a lot of historical settings, women are shown as just victims of I wanted to emphasize women's communities, ⁓ especially women's communities in a wartime setting. And of what I wanted to do with this book is show some of the various ways that women contribute ⁓ are active participants in these processes, because I those stories ⁓ get lost in history. ⁓ I think in a of historical settings, women shown as just victims of Jennifer Jumba: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Eve J. Chung: the brutality of war. And yes, that is true. And I did also want to share that in my book, but I also wanted to show them as who are influencing their community. And often that influence affects the entire trajectory ⁓ a conflict. that's, tell people that every ⁓ woman in this is in some way activist a human rights defender, whether it's, know, granny Cho who's in that, ⁓ ⁓ the brutality of war. And yes, that is true. And I did also want to share that in my book, but I also wanted to show them as who are influencing their community. And often that influence affects the entire trajectory ⁓ a conflict. that's, tell people that every ⁓ woman in this is in some way activist a human rights defender, whether it's, know, granny Cho who's in that, ⁓ that, ⁓ Jennifer Jumba: Yes. Eve J. Chung: compound or the doctor that they meet, they're all trying to a difference in some way. compound or the doctor that they meet, they're all trying to a difference in some way. Jennifer Jumba: Yeah, and I think it's an important lesson for all of us. You, with your work being somebody who is championing and an advocate, working an attorney ⁓ for rights, there are things that we can do just as human beings on a smaller scale that makes ⁓ a That, yes, would be ⁓ lovely to this big epic impact, but a small impact still makes a difference in somebody's life ultimately the trajectory of their life. Eve J. Chung: Mm-hmm. Yes, and I think a lot of times it's those small impacts that are longer lasting. The collective action of a lot of people to, I think, endure for longer just because of the sheer volume voices behind it. Jennifer Jumba: ⁓ think about Ellie and I think about the fact that, she's not just, she, lot of, there were a lot of nurses that worked during this period and would hop on the military planes to help the soldiers who had been wounded. And at the same time you have Ellie, but she's seeing through the lens of being a correspondent of war. So she's seeing things a little bit differently. And at one point she is kind of questioned about why she. ⁓ Eve J. Chung: Mm-hmm. Jennifer Jumba: is choosing to work as a journalist this conflict. And she says, I believe in telling the truth and I care about democracy. In order to make the right decisions and to vote for the right representatives, people have to know what's happening. They deserve to have real information. So it goes to your point about things being lost because it depends on who's reporting it, who's capturing that, who's quote unquote winning in terms of that. Eve J. Chung: Mm-hmm. Yes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Jennifer Jumba: narrative. So I think it's so important that you choose profession to be that of a war correspondent which shapes how she's seeing things. Eve J. Chung: Yeah, so that was a, there was a process to get to her profession because I originally wanted Ellie to be a pilot. And when I first imagined it, and I tell people that this was sort of my, and I should know that progress is never linear, or it's rarely linear. But somehow in my mind, I thought, oh, well, there were women flying as, you know, for the Wasps in World War II. Jennifer Jumba: Yes. Eve J. Chung: So of course there will also be women flying planes in the Korean War, to find that they actually took a step back. And no women were allowed to fly into the Korean Peninsula. So then shifted to trying to have Ellie be a ⁓ flight nurse, then that was hard because that at least, I keep, and I say like, Again, you know, everyone's different, but at least when I imagine a nurse, I imagine someone who will stop and help wounded people. So I was thinking, well, Ellie's never gonna, her entire journey will probably be because there were so many wounded civilians. So, I mean, that could be a very interesting story. think it would just, it just isn't quite what I wanted to tell here. So that was when I came across Maggie Higgins, who was a female war correspondent. And I came across her after several, Jennifer Jumba: 100 yards. Eve J. Chung: different sources indicating there are no women on the front lines except for nurses or like no women in But again, that shows I think women's input often sort of fall to the sidelines. When you have Maggie Higgins who was actually at the Battle of Choson and was there just, know, that scene that Ellie arrives there. Jennifer Jumba: Yes. Eve J. Chung: Maggie Higgins was there when the Marines actually she arrived before Ellie did she was there as the Marines walked back so I read her memoir and then so role as a correspondent I think was easier for me to write because I think a lot of that overlaps with my about news and importance of amplifying people's stories so know what's happening ⁓ and there was part to add here because There was a lot of pressure on correspondents like Ellie. So I only put like a few sentences on, but they were pressured not to make the casualties look too bad. that was something that was a fight between them and MacArthur's office at the time. And I wanted to say a lot more about it, but I didn't want to go on. it was World War apparently all of the news releases had to go through the military and the military had to clear them before they could be published. And so the Korean War, didn't do that. ⁓ But there was this idea of censorship, which a lot of journalists did not do, which a source of tension between them and MacArthur's office. Jennifer Jumba: Yeah, there's a scene opening in the book where she's, squatting in the hanger. she her typewriter. mean, the times have changed. I mean, now we can do things, from the palm of our hand, but she's got her typewriter kind of, she's squatted down and she's trying to type in Barbara, her friend who's a flight nurse. mean, she's savvy. Ellie is savvy enough to realize if I want to get a different perspective, instead of going to these quote unquote press conferences, I'll just ride with the flight nurses and befriend them and develop a good rapport. Eve J. Chung: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Jennifer Jumba: And the flight nurse takes and it out of her hand is like, no, no, you have to tell this. You can't self or voluntarily censor, what you're going to send. And you do a wonderful job in the story of infusing with news stories and letters. It's just such beautifully woven tapestry of a story to showcase what's happening. Eve J. Chung: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Thank you. So I need to a shout out to my editor because my draft, had the letters that Emma wrote to her daughter ⁓ and had a lot of history and it was my editor who was saying the history within the text was starting to weigh it down a little too much. ⁓ So she suggested using interstitial materials ⁓ to in those gaps so I could cut it out of the narrative, ⁓ which up. Jennifer Jumba: Yes. Bye. Eve J. Chung: Initially I was skeptical because I was telling my editor I actually tend to skip over interstitial material. ⁓ But apparently most people don't, so it's great that people are reading So I put them in and that was actually really fun in sense that I got to sort of pick out the pieces that I wanted to include. ⁓ Jennifer Jumba: you No, we don't. Eve J. Chung: And it added, I think, dimension to the story with the foreign correspondence records and diaries and ⁓ real nonfiction ⁓ The quotes too. I don't think I had the quotes in first draft either, but once I started using the snippets of foreign correspondence record, I thought, I should put this quote at the beginning because that also gives a context. Jennifer Jumba: does a really good thing. mean, from my perspective as a reader, because I'm not trained as a writer, everything for me is ⁓ visceral. But having that material there kind of grounded me in a ⁓ to then the story to continue to evolve, almost like I could pause, take a breath, and then know I would see that next part of the story, you know, through Ellie and Emma and Imo, but also ⁓ being grounded the... Eve J. Chung: Mm-hmm. Mm. Mm-hmm. Jennifer Jumba: history and the news that were the facts and just the facts type of approach. Eve J. Chung: Yeah, and it was nice because then I didn't have to, think in my original draft, I had to like think of a plausible way for them to know the information. So it's like so and so heard from so and so that and and then I didn't have to do that anymore. Jennifer Jumba: Yeah, I think, you we're talking a little bit about, who chooses to tell the story and the narrative. is thinking about a professor that she had at one point who, the typical question of a tree falls in the woods and no one's there to hear it, does it really make a sound? ⁓ But Ellie took it twisted it to say if there's no one to record them or read them, they disappear. ⁓ And later people will ask, did that really happen? Did that really exist? Eve J. Chung: Yes. I made that part up. I not that it's made up. I mean, it's something that I feel quite strongly that it important to have the storytellers and the historians and the journalists in every part the world. And, you know, in conflict like this, journalists take enormous risks to get those stories. just one part of it. The next part is getting that story out ⁓ as in Ellie's case you do have to kind of weigh in some cases, know Ellie's afraid of access and the censorship that she has to put in is in part like she doesn't want to get blocked from future briefing. It's because she's seen as like ⁓ an news person. Jennifer Jumba: Right. think it's just really kind of interesting. And then I would also kind of flip it and think that Emma is a storyteller because we're seeing her daughter goes disappeared, right? She is taken at the age of 14, 16, 14, taken to comfort stations, which I'm going to ask you about in a second, but she's taken away, but you never stop being a mom. Eve J. Chung: Yes. Mm-hmm. Yes. 14. Mm-hmm. Jennifer Jumba: And so she's writing letters to her daughter. Eve J. Chung: Mm-hmm. Jennifer Jumba: kind of talking about what's happening and what's going on, what she's experiencing and ⁓ that type thing. So she's also telling a story and kind of trying to preserve that time that they're separated. Eve J. Chung: Yes, that goes also to the issue of I think a lot of women's stories being undervalued. Like you look at history, there's coverage of the battles at the front lines. isn't, and Ellie speaks about this too, there isn't as much coverage about what women are doing or what is something that if it only affects women, whether it would be covered. And so we rely people like Emma who end up being sort of a self-trained journalists. So Ellie kind of makes that remark like we're the same thing. Although she later understands like we aren't but Emma through that role ⁓ doing ⁓ very essential work and later when historians look back it's things like that diaries that people have have kept and ⁓ know often it's not a person who's unofficial not an official newspaper or anything like, but just an ordinary person writing down what happened to them every day, that shows us a timeline. And that's often where we see how war affects civilians in ways that it doesn't matter to either army, but this is how the everyday people experience the brutality that's around them. Jennifer Jumba: And I think that's what humanizes things is when you hear that personal account and that personal story that we're not just reading facts and figures, this time of day, on this particular year, this happened and this is how many people were wounded and this is how many were killed. But when you have that human story behind of how they're struggling for food and how ⁓ this is what eating, they have ⁓ very little and they're stretching it and making it last and how they're Eve J. Chung: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Jennifer Jumba: helping the that are wounded. And I was struck by a line in the book, seeing the the MASH units and how young the soldiers were, that they were, you mentioned in the book, they were too young, many of them were too young to have been married. And they're hauntingly crying for their moms as their mean, it literally broke my heart. ⁓ But such... ⁓ Eve J. Chung: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Jennifer Jumba: a poignant scene for us to think about. don't think it changes no matter what war we're fighting, ⁓ the impact it has on human beings. Eve J. Chung: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and a lot of those, so to do the research, I watched interviews with a lot of veterans. So that was how I know that a lot of the soldiers didn't have their winter uniforms in December, because one of the veterans said that. The ones that the Chosun did, but ones in, I think, in other parts of Korea just did without it. But there is, I think, a part in the book where Ellie talks about the boys that she met and ⁓ these boys are lying about their age to enlist they, this from ⁓ a interview where he was saying like, they were paying $75 a month at the time. And so like lied to enlist. And I think he was only 15 ⁓ and somehow checked. guess, you know, a lot of people might not have documentation, but you know, it He got in, but thinking of someone that young going into battle, it's really awful. Jennifer Jumba: Right. Yeah, I think about George, who was the pilot, who Ellie, befriended by, jumping on multiple flights with him and talking about why chose, to ⁓ serve. And ⁓ your point, some like they're $75 a month, which is a lot of money. Some were, they're paying for education. ⁓ And he was like, look, I'm representing the ordinary at home that are good, that are honest, that are moral. ⁓ That's who I'm fighting for. That's their... Eve J. Chung: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Jennifer Jumba: I'm their voice, I'm representing them. And I just think, you we all do things for different reasons and you being able to extrapolate the different reasons why people show up and form, a community advance, ⁓ what they believe their is. ⁓ Eve J. Chung: Mm-hmm. Yep. Mm-hmm. Yes. I think that is not George, but a lot of the other people ⁓ and just on the American side, but on all sides. think Ellie makes this comment that everybody who, maybe not but a lot of people believe they're fighting ⁓ for freedom. she mentions that like, who's freedom? And it's not like, you each side is nobody thinks that they're the enemy. I think that's the thing we have to hold onto. Everyone has people that they want to protect. Everyone is worried about their homes some way, and that's why they're there. Aside from the money, mean, obviously it's split. People have different motivations, but for lot of people, it was this idea that, you know, I want to do something with my life. ⁓ Jennifer Jumba: Right. Right, something I mean, I think we all kind of struggle at points for finding what our purpose is. So with work being, what you do as an international, human rights, women's rights attorney, how does that infuse your work vice versa? Eve J. Chung: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I think I do put a lot of my own feelings and experience in it. So there a time in the past when I worked on enforced disappearances and that was why I have Emma's thread in there. Because prior doing that work, I never thought about it very much. I sort of about the idea like, ⁓ well, you survived the war. Like the worst thing is to die in the war. And if you survived, it's not so bad, which is... until you talk to those people, it's very different. ⁓ I mean, I think in every war, it's whether someone was taken as prisoners of war, but I did have the opportunity to interview people about it and to what they say. These are, are people whose loved one disappeared like 20 years ago, ⁓ and they're effectively tortured by that absence. So. That's why I chose to write from Emma's perspective ⁓ because I do think when we when we talk about crimes or violations we think about the victim and yes that's the primary person but each victim is a world. There are people who love that person who are also hurt by what happens to them. in this case yeah I wanted to emphasize how it can be a form of torture and how Emma is ⁓ Jennifer Jumba: Mm-hmm. Eve J. Chung: consumed by trying to find what happened. And I think there's a lot of real life people who are like that, who are like Emma, who every day about that person. And I think there's even things that I've thought about, ⁓ for in the context of someone who's been kidnapped or abducted by forces and they're a prisoner of war, parents really worrying like what's happening like is my kid alive you know and there's some who think like is it better to die than to be tortured and that's something Emma reckons with like I think when you have someone who disappeared you're always thinking about like what they're going through so that goes into I think the ⁓ not motherhood but being a parent in these wars like when you're separated how Jennifer Jumba: Great. Eve J. Chung: How is the person you love? How are they doing? Jennifer Jumba: Yeah, I think it's Ellie who says that no one was just a number. And if my heart wasn't it would simply like not hurt anymore. It goes to the point of the fact that there's an impact that you said that one person, like they a world. And I think there's a scene, and I know we'll talk about comfort stations because that's where Emma's daughter is believed to have been. Eve J. Chung: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep. Yes. Mm-hmm. Jennifer Jumba: forcibly removed and taken to. Can you talk a little bit about comfort stations? Eve J. Chung: Mm-hmm. So during World War II, the Japanese military set up these brothels along the front lines. the idea had been, so starting with the rape of Nanking, I mean, that was a pivotal moment. These stations existed before then. So I looked at testimony from survivors coming out of these stations. And there are women who were taken in the 30s before the invasion of China. and there were these stations in Korea. But it was the rape of Nanking that really triggered a lot of international outcry. And so at that time, the Japanese imperial authorities decided to have these stations so their men would essentially get sex like they would get rations. And then they would be less likely to rape civilians. I mean, these were... the women who were put in these stations came from Japanese colonies, but there were also Chinese women who were kidnapped as the war through different parts of China. So there's lot of ⁓ very good resources on ⁓ survivors military slavery. But also I like to recommend these books because my book sort of deals with the aftermath and the community, but there are two, Honey the Wound by Ji Young Han. ⁓ and White Chrysanthemum by Mary Lynn Brock that follows the woman who were taken. I think I would definitely encourage readers to go look at those. These stations were really brutal. And Emma makes this remark, there's a difference between a woman who is seen as a slave versus other women. And it's this idea like she is not human. You can do what you want to them. and the testimony is really awful. Really, really graphic ⁓ harrowing testimony of what these girls went through. you know, I researching this war in particular, you see as each side retreats, they destroy their stuff. So when the US retreated, they would, you know, just burn all of their fuel because they didn't want the enemy to have it. this massive, ⁓ you know, they destroy their tanks, their cars, ⁓ but then these, but these women, that happened too as Japanese began to lose in a lot of these women were just slaughtered and it is... Jennifer Jumba: Everything. Eve J. Chung: It's just women are put through. think in many wars, women are treated as property, just of, know, the horses that die, the things that you use so that you can fight better. Yeah. Yeah. So I think in I really wanted to show not just the person behind it. And again, I think read those other two books that I recommended because they follow the girls in that journey. to show like this isn't just Jennifer Jumba: that's commodity or I think, yeah. Right. Eve J. Chung: property. Like this is someone who has an entire community that was revolving, not revolving around them per se, but they were part of the fabric of their community. Jennifer Jumba: There's somebody's daughter. There's somebody's mom. There's somebody's sister somebody's cousin teacher. Yeah, I mean You humanize it and to the point where it causes some tension between emo and Emma because Emma is So consumed with the grief her daughter's disappearance and trying to find her again That it's almost like she doesn't give permission to emo or to pastor Peck or to their son Jamie Eve J. Chung: Yes. Yes. Mm-hmm Jennifer Jumba: Jae Min ⁓ to feel any grief or any loss because she's the one that has the authority on it and nobody else can feel bad. Eve J. Chung: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think Emma sort of just thinks nobody cares as much as she does. And to be fair to Emma, I think that's true. I feel like, you know, it's different when you're a mom. I, yeah, I wanted to write from the mom's perspective, especially just me as someone with kids. I think that's really altered how I look at things. You know, I'm in a place where I can no longer work on children's rights issues because I get too upset about it. Like there were times when I did when I was younger. Jennifer Jumba: Right. Eve J. Chung: And I just don't think I not that I don't think I know I don't have the capacity to be able to ⁓ work that field anymore. So yeah in Emma's case, think there are the other people who mourn her daughter's loss, but she's the one who spends like her entire life trying to find her and like hasn't You know, essentially that's been that's become her life's mission Jennifer Jumba: Well, I mean, I can't imagine you could ever let go. I mean, I'm grownup, but my mom will say like, you're always gonna be my kid, and ⁓ still concerned about and still ask, things to make sure that I'm okay, even though I'm allegedly, allegedly a grownup. ⁓ But it's that fierce mother's to protect to want to see their kid doing well and to not know where your child is. ⁓ Eve J. Chung: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah Mm-hmm. Jennifer Jumba: I can't imagine living in quote unquote limbo like that. Eve J. Chung: Yeah, yeah. I think, you know, I just saw my own mom recently and I have a new appreciation for my mom after I became a mom. ⁓ through little things. And I tried to show that through Emma's letters. Like a lot of these little things that you do for each other that nobody else does. Like I a piece of garbage in my hand. Like I unwrapped something. I had the wrapper and I had to do something else and I needed my hands free. And I just handed it to my mom. ⁓ Jennifer Jumba: Yeah. Eve J. Chung: And like, I don't think you could ever just do that to another person. You might say, oh, can you please hold this for me or something? But like, to your mom, you can literally hand her a piece of garbage and she'll be like, my kid has garbage I holded for her. And it's so small, but I just think about that's all of those things that add up. Like there's no one in, at least in my, I mean, I guess there are a few other people like that, but it's so rare and it's sort of... Jennifer Jumba: You Yeah. Eve J. Chung: There's that photo of, I think, Beyonce with her daughter, and she's holding a snack pack, and the caption was like, no matter how glamorous you are, you are some trifled snack holder. And yeah, I think about those moments. So I tried to do that in Emma's letters, like the little things that she thinks about. Jennifer Jumba: Yes. Great. Yeah, and that's the thing you capture, when we were talking earlier about ordinary things that are happening and some the people that you've interviewed in a lot of the documentaries that you watch to capture the ordinary moments set within context of these really big moments in history. ⁓ Eve J. Chung: Mm-hmm. Yes. that, for example, the birth, that important to me to put in because, ⁓ again, feel like unless you have women ⁓ taking stories or people who considers women's needs, a lot of the news we from armed conflict and war, they don't think about all the pregnant women. There's still a ton of pregnant women who need places to deliver Jennifer Jumba: Yes. and Eve J. Chung: There's very little coverage and to think like, okay, you have these refugees, you people who medical care. Someone has to provide it. Jennifer Jumba: Yeah, I'm thinking back to of the conflicts early on ⁓ the ⁓ war and showing up where refugees were, like on the subway platform, were a ton of strollers because those moms knew that the refugees that were coming and fleeing that conflict had young kids with them and young kids, they a lot of things and you need a lot like extra arms, know, to your point of, you you needed to do something, hand your mom garbage, but... Eve J. Chung: Mm hmm. Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah. Jennifer Jumba: just capturing good, and the women that think like, guys don't always think like, ⁓ ⁓ you don't need a stroller, you just carry them. Well, they're not exactly like newborns and lightweight anymore. ⁓ Eve J. Chung: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, think a lot of people might think about a need that they themselves don't have. And so that's also why it's so important to have women ⁓ represented all of these things. And so sometimes I look at these committees that are addressing these issues and there women on them. So of course, like someone wrote a really good article about even just designing cities and how someone, if it's like young man, they would think a ramp is there for a person in a wheelchair. They don't really necessarily, because they themselves don't have a stroller. If it's like a younger man without kids and but it's like every child under three will also need that ramp. So we do have a lot of cities that are very, not just like inaccessible for people with disabilities, but very like not child friendly. Jennifer Jumba: Yeah, I'm thinking like I have a non-fiction book discussion at work and we kind of focus on issues and we've read like the Death and Life of Great American Cities by Jane Jacobs and cities are just, yeah, was written, gosh, back in the sixties, but still really relevant. And then recently read a book about invisible data, about how studies aren't conducted with women to separate the data from male versus female. Eve J. Chung: Mm-hmm. ⁓ I haven't read that. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Jennifer Jumba: Things like the cars, right? There's crash test dummies, but they're built based on a male's anatomy, not a female's. So we're differently proportioned. like, oh yeah, those safety crashes do great if you're a guy, but if you're a girl or a woman, know, different things happen or how certain data, like you have the data, you just choose not to extrapolate it to make decisions that are more inclusive, I guess we'll say. Eve J. Chung: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Jennifer Jumba: So yeah, it was an amazing, amazing story. I mean, even think about there's a scene where they're experiencing bombing. so Emma and Emo and Ellie head to the shelter, to be in the basement that's really kind of dank and not so great and with everybody in that little town community trying to survive. And Eve J. Chung: Mm-hmm. Yes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Jennifer Jumba: Now we see the benevolence of a pastor's wife start to pray, basically saying the Our Father prayer. And I think Ellie's like, I don't know that I would say that. And this line by Imo is, a prayer isn't everything these women need, but it's the only thing I can give them and probably the only thing they can have. Eve J. Chung: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. so that scene I designed around a few things. So me, I'm Buddhist and my husband is Christian. So I actually had to check a lot of things with him. And originally, I the Lord's wrong and ⁓ nobody caught it. husband catch it. My mother didn't catch it. like, later I only caught it because luckily I was invited to someone's wedding. ⁓ and they had it at their wedding. And I was like, wait a minute, that line is not, cause you know, I've reviewed the draft so many times. So I heard this line and I said, that's not in my book. And I asked my husband, he's like, oh yeah, that's part of it. So I was like, why didn't you tell me? But anyway, the point of this too was knowing that, you know, I am an American and I write for a lot of American readers. I want people to know that a lot of times are quote unquote enemies. may be a lot more similar to us than we realize. I think in a lot of wars, it's very common to think of the enemy as not like a person or as ⁓ I brainwashed or robotic without thinking like these are people who have a lot of their own opinions and beliefs. Like they are a more similar to us ⁓ than we are And I think ⁓ that's one scene surprised a lot of people in part because I think Jennifer Jumba: Right. Eve J. Chung: people don't know about that history in North Korea. you know, that's just one element. might, and in this case, it happens to be religion, there's so we have in common with other people. ⁓ And I there be ⁓ lot of stories intentional, I mean, what we would call propaganda to try to convince us otherwise. But that's what I wanted show with story is that ⁓ when you are put with people who are again allegedly your enemy, think you'll always find something you have in common. You'll find ways to stick together. that very, I I that's the core of this book that, ⁓ you know, Emo that people are the same everywhere. ⁓ I do believe I think for the most part, people are the same. Like we might have different cultures, different religions and different practices, but we are Jennifer Jumba: Yes. Eve J. Chung: at the core very similar. We, I mean, as moms, we all have like issues dealing with our children and vice versa. Like those are universal things. The remark you made about just children needing so much gear. I mean, I think we could, that's something we could universally sympathize with. ⁓ Jennifer Jumba: This is great. I mean, they're this little person and there's a bag and a stroller and the this and the that and I'm like, takes up like half of, you know, a trunk and the ⁓ eight pounds, come on. ⁓ I'm a lot more than eight pounds and I don't require half as much. Yeah. But you, you are correct. And I guess that it's a big existential question is how do we find our way to our commonality? Eve J. Chung: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Jennifer Jumba: that we stop fighting? I mean, it's a bigger question than can really answer, but given your work, I mean, you see these atrocities happen and you're advocating so that there's some accountability and restitution and practices so this can stop happening. Eve J. Chung: I have a lot of. Mm-hmm. I think it depends on ordinary people and I really believe that it's the people who read a book about a culture that's different from their own. I do firmly believe that reading makes you a better person. I don't think everyone can afford to travel. I think if you can afford to ⁓ travel study abroad, that's even better because, know, and think that's also a sad thing as a result of a lot of conflicts, nationals are forbidden to come to your country. ⁓ Jennifer Jumba: Mm-hmm. Eve J. Chung: And that's a pretty common policy. then I think that leads to further isolation. So example, Pastor Pegg, similar to grandfather, he worked a lot with American missionaries. So there's this idea like ⁓ he knows not all evil. He's met different Americans. And I think we need to letting governments determine what think people. Like ordinary people are very different. from their governments, not always. And when I say not always, I mean, again, when there's a lot of propaganda, I think you can convince ordinary people to do really awful things. But the most part, I think want to do good. I do believe the majority of people want to do good in some way with different capacity for it. I think people are seldom just explicitly of course that happens, but I think that is minority. So in ways technology has helped us able to look at other cultures differently. I'm just thinking and translation, but I think support for education and reading. mean, ⁓ I find the community is a very special community because it is one where ⁓ people I think curious, they like stories and they're drawn to human stories. So I, wish there was more support for that. And that is something that does kind of scare me as I saw some statistic that people read a lot less. I hope that changes. I mean, I'm sure there's other ways to get that information, but there's something about sitting and spending 300 pages with the person. Like that's a significant chunk of your time. Sorry, yeah, think mine is 400. Yeah. Jennifer Jumba: Mm-hmm. 425, but I'm just, I'm just saying. Yeah, that was 425. And I loved every single page, but you're right. There's an opportunity to understand somebody else, to learn. I mean, we all read for different reasons. Some of us read, because we're curious and we want to learn something. Some of us read because we want to be entertained. Some of us read because we need to escape. Some of us read because we want to not feel alone. We want to see somebody else just like us in a book. Eve J. Chung: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep. Jennifer Jumba: ⁓ And to know and I think that no matter what you read if you're somebody who's an avid reader you basically find ⁓ every book is that you you can connect with those characters in the book It doesn't matter if you're reading historical fiction if you're reading, you know literary fiction if you're reading a cozy mystery ⁓ is something human and relatable in all those characters that's going to resonate with you somewhere Which is something that AI can never do Eve J. Chung: Mm-hmm. Yes. ⁓ Mm-hmm. Yes. Mm-hmm. Jennifer Jumba: So I think it's a that you give us to be able to write these stories so that can see a different way of looking at the world ⁓ and inspiring to be better people. I think about the Olympics. I most of will not watch gymnastics every Sunday like we might football or, ⁓ 162 games of But when we get together for the Olympics, not only are we kind of together, Eve J. Chung: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Jennifer Jumba: It's all the backstories to that person who's doing the gymnastics that get us. It's that humanity that, their old gymnasium where they trained burned down or was destroyed by a tornado and now they drive, four hours each way. And it's that kind of stuff that humanizes everything ⁓ and makes us like want to better as well. Eve J. Chung: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, think it's the too. I think when you're reading a book of that length, you don't just the action typically, you get into another person's mind in a way that's very, very hard to with other media. I guess you can, but you know, just being able to like have be inside someone's brain. Jennifer Jumba: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it is um, you know empathy and and sympathy I think more so empathy because you're in that person's shoes and you're right along with them And you're just reminded that to your point there's so much more we have in common than we don't My goodness I would talk to you though the whole rest of the day. Um, it's hard to believe like time has flown by So this is Eve J. Chung: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Jennifer Jumba: Story's end, final five questions. So early on, Ellie finds herself stressed and overwhelmed. And as a way to calm herself and bring herself some peace, she thinks about the sea lions at home. When you're stressed and overwhelmed, what do you think about? Eve J. Chung: Mm-hmm. think of things from home. So that is what I do a place where I was really relaxed. recently I went on a vacation to Costa Rica and we stayed at this beautiful place in the jungle and or sorry the ⁓ where there were monkeys the window and sometimes I actually just think about that place. So it's not really home but it's like a place where I was just very happy. yeah. ⁓ Jennifer Jumba: And very present. Very good. You did a lot of research for this book, right? And we know that not every bit of your research makes it into the book. Unfortunately, some things end up, as they say, on the cutting room floor. What is one thing that you learned that you wish you could have found some way to incorporate in this story? Eve J. Chung: Mm-hmm. there's so much that I cut out. no, sorry, let me think about that. I think I would have wanted to put a little bit more about the of segregation and how it affected the servicemen. So segregation was still ongoing in the US, but the army by executive order from Truman was and that was a very difficult process. But then a of the black men who fought in the Korean War and other black service members afterwards had a lot of trouble getting their benefits because the whatever benefits office, I don't know the name for it, was usually in the white part of town. ⁓ when they went there, one, it was very hard for them to get there. And if they did go and fill in their paperwork, if it was a racist person working there, ⁓ they just throw it away. So I guess I'll take this opportunity to talk about this organization called, shoot. ⁓ Jennifer Jumba: Mm-hmm. Eve J. Chung: I forgot the name of the organization now. The Black Veterans Project. The Black Veterans Project, ⁓ one of the founders is Kyle Bibby and he works to help black veterans get their benefits. Jennifer Jumba: Yes. Okay. Yeah, I read about that in, I think it's color of law. Yeah. And talked about a lot of the disadvantages that black service and experienced serving no different than their white comrade, but yet completely different once they got home. It's really sad. would you rather stuck in an Uber with emo or Emma? Eve J. Chung: Okay. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I think emo would be more interesting in terms of like what she would say. Like Emma is very nice and she's funny. I kind of modeled her after one of my friend's ⁓ kind of, ⁓ emo, yeah, know like she can be a little scary, but you wouldn't be bored. ⁓ Jennifer Jumba: Mm-hmm. No, exactly. And because you're stuck, you would have the opportunity to remove some of those layers. It makes her so darn fascinating. What is a book that you wish you could read again for the first time? Eve J. Chung: Yeah. You know, read, there was another one, there were a recently that I was like, ⁓ it's such a beautiful book. One that did read twice was The Djinn 100 Years ⁓ by Shubnam Khan. And one was, it's like a ghost story, mystery, romance all together, but she is such a beautiful writer. And I think she said it took 10 years for her to write this book. Jennifer Jumba: Okay. Okay. Eve J. Chung: and it shows because I read it the first time and then I felt like I didn't do a good enough job reading it. And so I read it again right after. Yeah, I was I thought her writing was really marvelous. And someone else, a few others recently that but, know, sometimes I feel like I have the memory of a goldfish now where I ⁓ remember feeling of loving book. But then the title and the author are escaping me. Jennifer Jumba: I understand as a librarian, people are like, what are you reading? And I'm like, my mind goes completely blank. Meanwhile, I've got like three books going. just goes right up. And then the last question, what song would always be on a road trip playlist? Eve J. Chung: Yeah. Ooh, I mean, now all we're listening to is K-pop Demon Hunter, so it's hard for me to think because like ⁓ all that's- my kids that, so ⁓ it would that right now, but maybe it would change in a few years. ⁓ Jennifer Jumba: I'm Yeah. There go. So thank you to everybody who was listening. A gigantic thank to Eve J. Chung, ⁓ whose new book, Young Will Remember, published this week. If you're looking for a story that will shine a light on part of history we are not often familiar with, this book is for you. If you're looking for a book with three remarkable women who we journey alongside as they face unspeakable odds, this book is for you. If you're looking for a book told from a place of compassion with beautiful language to fully capture the humans who experienced this war, this book is for you. As Eve writes, this earth, we must anchor ourselves in our shared humanity for we don't look out for one another, who else will? I this is a lesson for all of us, no matter who or where we are at war and how important it is for us to stand up. And then may I end with this line from this remarkable book. Lighting a torch can be frightening and it is often lonely, but when that fire catches, is brilliant. Thank you so very much for joining me today. Eve J. Chung: Thank you so much for inviting me. And yeah, that's one of my favorite lines too.