Latest / The Living Waters Podcast / Ep. 317 - The Rise of the “Nones”: Why People Are Abandoning Christianity

Transcript

Ep. 317 - The Rise of the “Nones”: Why People Are Abandoning Christianity · The Living Waters Podcast

• 1:04
  Speaker 1: Ray.
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: I think it's important for us to clarify, though, that when we hit topics like this, there can be this perception of we're saying, oh, people who are Christians are now no longer Christian, meaning that people are losing their salvation, but you talk about this at length in terms of, no, you don't lose your salvation, they're false converts.
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and our churches are filled with them, as I've often mentioned.
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: Tears among the weak, foolish virgins, among the wise bad fish've often mentioned tears among the weak, foolish virgins, among the wise bad fish, among the good sheep, among the goats or goats among the sheep.
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: They're going to be sorted out on Judgment Day.
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: So it's very important that we come back to the fact that we preach an unadulterated gospel that sorts out the sheep from the goats before we sit them in a pews, because a lot of people are going to get shot on Judgment Day.
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: I think also another thing that comes in the equation that we now have, as I mentioned before, access to sin like never before as a nation.
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: I see so many people that are.
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: When I go to the local college each day, I come out to my own bike.
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: I don't walk up.
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: Most people walk up to people in the local college.
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: I come up on a bike super fast and they look up with a sense of guilt on their face because I've arrived suddenly, like that, and you know they're doing something they shouldn't, looking at something they shouldn't, and it's that access to the darkness that they love that causes them to hate the light, and that's why I've got a generation that are anti-Christian in that sense, but no different than the other Culture that's gone before us.
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: It's just more come out in the open.
• 2:37
  Speaker 3: Niagara Falls.
• 2:38
  Speaker 4: Slowly I turned, step by step, inch by inch.
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: And I smashed him and beat him, oscar, you didn't join in.
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: You're not into the Stooges.
• 2:52
  Speaker 4: I have no idea what that is, it's the three Stooges.
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: That's Curly's best line.
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: Oh, boop boop, boop, boop, boop.
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: That's one of the funniest things I think we've ever done.
• 2:59
  Speaker 4: It's hilarious.
• 3:00
  Speaker 4: What was it?
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: The word Niagara Falls triggered.
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: Yes, His dance was iconic.
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: Just crazy dance with us.
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: And then he would hit his friends like this.
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: I'll never forget watching Easy with his kids saying no, no, no, no, no.
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: You don't do that, that's wrong, Don't do that.
• 3:17
  Speaker 4: Kids emulate, start poking each other's eyes out.
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: I remember near the end of what they were doing.
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: They ended up getting politically correct and they were like, no, we're not.
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: And they ended up changing.
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: They stopped doing violence toward each other.
• 3:32
  Speaker 3: The Three Stooges are the guys on.
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: Mount Rushmore right, but speaking of it, it was hyperbolic Cuma.
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, oh, I loved it, man, they're nothing like the Stooges.
• 3:39
  Speaker 4: Seriously, there's us Like you three.
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: Speaking of Niagara Falls, someone was just recently there.
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: I was.
• 3:49
  Speaker 4: Marcus Spences.
• 3:51
  Speaker 4: I brought my wife, I spoke at a men's breakfast in Toronto and then we went a couple days early and I got us a hotel right by the fall.
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: I just have to say I was blown away by those pictures you guys sent.
• 4:07
  Speaker 4: What that sunrise?
• 4:08
  Speaker 4: I think it was.
• 4:08
  Speaker 4: It was a sunrise from our hotel and you were like overlooking the falls.
• 4:11
  Speaker 4: The hotel closest to and I didn't get any pictures, Mark yeah.
• 4:15
  Speaker 4: I sent it to all my friends.
• 4:16
  Speaker 4: That's why you and Oscar didn't get anything.
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: Mark, it was amazing and beautiful.
• 4:24
  Speaker 4: Beautiful, beautiful.
• 4:24
  Speaker 4: Laura's never been to New York and we had the opportunity to take long walks off a short pier.
• 4:31
  Speaker 4: We did not do that and we went over to the New York side, and the New York side is even prettier, not of the falls but of the walk along the water.
• 4:40
  Speaker 4: Canada has the view you were staying in Canada, though, right.
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: We were staying in Canada, yes, and the US.
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: Let you back in.
• 4:46
  Speaker 4: They did and they questioned me, which I was surprised.
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: I would never have believed that Niagara Falls could freeze over.
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: That sounds like a joke.
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: Wait, it does.
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it does.
• 4:53
  Speaker 3: Seriously, it freezes, but not always right.
• 4:55
  Speaker 3: It's pretty rare Regularly.
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: Each winter, every winter.
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: I can't say every winter, unless I'm missing.
• 5:03
  Speaker 4: I'm missing.
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: You know, what I've never been able to understand for the life of me is people that get into those barrels and go for waterfalls.
• 5:12
  Speaker 4: You know it's happened, right, you can't do that anymore.
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: How many times did that actually happen?
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: It has Because they wanted to be famous.
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: But in a barrel, like going to kayak or something.
• 5:24
  Speaker 4: Make sure you have certain death has anyone driven a car over them.
• 5:28
  Speaker 3: Thousands of people have gone over the Niagara Falls.
• 5:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah, make sure you have certain death.
• 5:29
  Speaker 3: Has anyone driven a car over them?
• 5:29
  Speaker 3: Oh, that's insane.
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: Thousands of people have gone over the niagara falls yeah that's crazy yeah, I thought like it'd be three want to try oscar no, well, maybe hold on, that is something you would do hold on die doing it yeah yeah, a lot of people did die yeah, it's not a good idea anyway welcome back, mark
• 5:49
  Speaker 3: thank you of the grand canyon in a barrel the first person to ever surprise to survive was in 1901 and he was a school teacher in an oak barrel you would not expect that, and what's crazy is that's before the internet, where they're trying to get you know views.
• 6:06
  Speaker 3: Youtube video Same thing.
• 6:08
  Speaker 3: He got out of that barrel and go like I got eight views.
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: All right, Brant's time.
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: Time for a cool, classy comment.
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: This is from Ivana Konak.
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: I'm 15 years old.
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: I hope I pronounced that right.
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: And I love this podcast.
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: Me and my sister listen to it every night before bed and it really is the ultimate cure for insomnia.
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: You guys are so funny and I love it that your podcasts are biblically sound Easy.
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: I love when you sing.
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: Yes, please sing more often.
• 6:36
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: I also love your impersonation of Ray's accent.
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: Ray, you are so funny and encouraging.
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: I love your accent and your evangelism videos.
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: They were very helpful when I went evangelizing with my church at an outreach.
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: Oscar, I love the way you laugh and I agree with you on the coffee.
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: No, thank you.
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: Your testimony is so encouraging.
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: Knowing that an atheist came to know Christ and is now part of a ministry encourages me to want to share the gospel.
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: Mark.
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: I love your insights and how you go into depth about a topic.
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: I love it when you talk about Wienerschnitzel and chili cheese dogs, although I personally don't think I'd like chili cheese dogs.
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: Give a shout Laugh out loud, not Wienerschnitzel ones.
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: This podcast has been the perfect mix of humor and the truth.
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: Keep up the good work.
• 7:21
  Speaker 3: Thank you, thank you, ivana.
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: Wow, ivana Very encouraging, and thank you for encouraging me to sing.
• 7:29
  Speaker 3: That's enough.
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: Does that bless you guys?
• 7:31
  Speaker 4: It does when you stop.
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: Me gusta.
• 7:34
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• 7:37
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• 8:29
  Speaker 1: All right, friends.
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: Today we're talking about the rise of the nuns.
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: Yes, Oscar, Ray and Mark have all joined a monastery.
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: Is it a convent?
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: A convict?
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: A convent A?
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: convent.
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: I was terrified of nuns as a little boy, they've always got a ruler.
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: They rep you over the knuckles.
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: It's because my brother scared me.
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: I was growing up going to a Catholic church and I remember there was this building and it had these curtains and he'd say the nuns are back there, they're sneakily looking at you, they're going to get you, man?
• 8:58
  Speaker 3: I heard this great story.
• 9:00
  Speaker 3: I've got to tell you guys, I heard this really mediocre story.
• 9:05
  Speaker 3: I'm talking like a Ray Comfort type story, real, mediocre, below the bar, entertaining.
• 9:10
  Speaker 3: So I was in Nebraska, I was preaching at this church and this sweet family.
• 9:16
  Speaker 3: They had like seven, eight kids and their youngest 78 kids 78 kids 708.
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: And they're all dressed like nuns.
• 9:24
  Speaker 3: So their youngest is like four or five years old and they were going through sort of like the history of Reformation, teaching their kids of the persecution that the Catholic Church had, especially on Spain and other Protestant Christians.
• 9:37
  Speaker 3: And this four or five-year-old kid not 45, just has this massive imagination and so for weeks he's like petrified of Catholics and he hears that his dad's going to go fix someone's house and he's a Catholic and so they're praying for him and the little four or five-year-old kid is like so afraid for his dad because he's going over to a Catholic's house.
• 10:04
  Speaker 3: And so then the dad ends up getting bit by a dog.
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: No, and he comes back.
• 10:10
  Speaker 3: And the five-year-old goes was the dog a catholic?
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: oh, that's really good the stories you get from nebraska and the emails we get from catholics.
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: Oh boy here they come yeah um.
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: We love catholics by the way, this isn't even happening to me, I know.
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: Seriously.
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: I feel like we're talking about Catholics.
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: The rest of the title, fram's, is why people are abandoning Christianity the rise of the nuns, n-o-n-e-s, so what are the nuns?
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: first of all, they're the equivalent of the priests, the term this is online here.
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: The term.
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: They're the equivalent of the priests.
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the term.
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: This is online here.
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: The term nuns refers to people who identify as having no specific religious affiliation.
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: This can include atheists, agnostics, spiritual but not religious.
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: There's actually a term, sbnr, or an acronym for that Individuals and those who may believe in God but reject organized religion.
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: So, oscar, when people hear the nuns, they immediately might think, oh, this person that just doesn't believe in God at all.
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: But that's not necessarily the case.
• 11:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a lot of surprising data, as you pointed out.
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: 70% of them say that they're spiritual.
• 11:18
  Speaker 3: Only 17% claim to be atheistic.
• 11:23
  Speaker 3: This is from a Pew research Pew research, that's right and 50% are engaged in some form of spiritual practice.
• 11:32
  Speaker 3: Another interesting data point is that a lot of them are civically unengaged, meaning they are less likely to vote, less likely to be involved in so much politics, and a lot of them are struggling with loneliness.
• 11:47
  Speaker 3: They say that their social lives are not going well.
• 11:52
  Speaker 3: Now, as we talk about the nuns, a lot of data and a lot of or I should say a lot of articles argue that this is the fall of Christianity and the rise of secularism.
• 12:02
  Speaker 3: And it is true.
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: If you look at people who don't affiliate themselves with the church, it looks statistically like agnosticism.
• 12:13
  Speaker 3: This noneness is somehow on the rise.
• 12:16
  Speaker 3: But I read this very interesting book by Nadia Williams, cultural Christians in the Early Church, and what she pointed out is that she framed it very differently.
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: She said since the early church, whenever Christianity became cultural, there was a massive shift where people just simply started to identify as a Christian because it was culturally beneficial to them.
• 12:41
  Speaker 3: So a quote from her says that individuals who self-identify as Christian but whose outward behavior and, to the extent that we can tell, inward thoughts and motivations are largely influenced by the surrounding culture rather than their Christian faith in the teaching in Jesus.
• 13:01
  Speaker 3: And so Timothy Keller, in some of his work he did about non-believers, he pointed out that belief is more than just reasoning, that ultimately there's three things that go into believing something.
• 13:12
  Speaker 3: There's the rational and the intellectual it's one the experiential and the intuitive to know it to be true, what we would say like I just know it in my heart and then the social and pragmatic.
• 13:23
  Speaker 3: He points out that in a culturally Christian culture that people end up identifying as Christian for primarily the third one, it's social and pragmatic.
• 13:35
  Speaker 3: He says, and I quote, it used to be that the devout and the mushy middle, nominal Christians, people that would identify as a Christian, people who would come to church sporadically, people who certainly respected the Bible and Christianity, that those people and the devout and the mushy middle were kind of together as a super majority and this created a Christian-y sort of culture.
• 14:01
  Speaker 3: He says the mushy middle used to be more identified with the devout.
• 14:05
  Speaker 3: Now they're more identified with the secular, in other words, the narrative that they're more identified with the secular.
• 14:09
  Speaker 3: In other words, the narrative that they're painting here is actually something that you talk about all the time that our pews are filled with non-believers.
• 14:18
  Speaker 3: People aren't saved.
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: So what Nadia is proposing is we think Christianity is falling apart, but actually the pews are being empty of the non-believers and they are just seeing themselves as more secular because now the cultural accepts secularism as opposed to Christianity.
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: That's interesting.
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: That is really interesting, ray.
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: I think it's important for us to clarify, though, that when we hit topics like this, there can be this perception of we're saying, oh, people who are Christians are now.
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: We're saying, oh, christians, people who are Christians, are now no longer Christian, meaning that people are losing their salvation, but you talk about this at length in terms of no, you don't lose your salvation, they're false converts.
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and our churches are filled with them, as I've often mentioned tears among the weak, foolish virgins among the wise, bad fish among the good, sheep among the goats or goats among the sheep.
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: They're going to be sorted out on Judgment Day.
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: So it's very important that we come back to the fact that we preach an unadulterated gospel that sorts out the sheep from the goats before we sit them in the pews, because a lot of people are going to get shot on Judgment Day.
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: I think also another thing that comes in the equation that we now have, as I mentioned before, access to sin like never before as a nation, and so you get a whole culture that can.
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: I see so many people that are.
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: When I go to the local college each day, I come out to my own bike.
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: I don't walk up.
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: Most people walk up to people in the local college.
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: I come up on a bike super fast and they look up with a sense of guilt on their face because I've arrived suddenly, like that, and you know they're doing something they shouldn't, looking at something they shouldn't, and it's that access to the darkness that they love that causes them to hate the light, and that's why I've got a generation that are anti-Christian in that sense, but no, that are anti-Christian in that sense but no different than the other culture that's gone before us.
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: It's just more come out in the open.
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: Ray, you ask this question to almost every person you interview.
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: Now, when was the last time you looked at pornography?
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: Have you had many say I don't or I haven't?
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, when they say I don't, I say I didn't ask.
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: If you don't, I said when did?
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: You last do.
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: And they, they, they say I was, they say it was like eight years ago.
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: So you almost, you've almost never had anyone.
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: I don't think, no, guys, I don't ask ladies, but the guys yeah, because you know that the temptation is just so strong, especially at teenage years, and it's right in their hand waiting for them.
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I feel sorry for them when I do that, because I know there's a sense of shame and guilt.
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: But that sense of shame and guilt is very good.
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: It's something that's so important.
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: Oh, that's good.
• 17:02
  Speaker 4: Do you think something that is contributing to the growth of the nuns is a lack of authenticity within the church?
• 17:10
  Speaker 4: Right, we have this cultural Christianity where people are looking in and they're seeing really no difference.
• 17:17
  Speaker 4: Right, I'm just as good as you.
• 17:19
  Speaker 4: We see that as perhaps a common objection from people like why do I need to go to church?
• 17:24
  Speaker 4: Right, I'm partying with you on the weekend all the same.
• 17:27
  Speaker 4: Right, these are the same people that, oscar, you're talking about.
• 17:30
  Speaker 4: You're just realizing, oh, I don't need to go to church.
• 17:32
  Speaker 4: I mean, I could much rather play golf or go do something else.
• 17:35
  Speaker 4: Why am I wasting my time in the midst of this?
• 17:36
  Speaker 4: Because I think there is a part of us that desire authentic conversations, authentic relationships, just somebody being real.
• 17:45
  Speaker 4: Was it Gandhi who said Christ I like, but your people I don't?
• 17:50
  Speaker 4: Yeah, big time.
• 17:50
  Speaker 4: Yeah his followers.
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, his problem was with the followers of Christ.
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: I have no problem with your Christ, I have a problem with you who follow him.
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know.
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: I think that people are sick, and tired of lifeless and powerless Christianity, the people that talk up a good game but just have no corresponding dynamism in relation to what they're professing.
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: People hate that.
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: Give me the George Whitefields of the world again.
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: Remember what Benjamin Franklin said about Whitefield when they said why are you going to listen to him?
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: You don't believe that.
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: He said.
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: No, I don't, but he does.
• 18:25
  Speaker 4: But he does, he does.
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: And no doubt Whitfield had a life that conformed to what it was that he was preaching, and I think that's exactly it, mark.
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: People are just tired of it.
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: It's like this is ridiculous.
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: You're a snake oil salesman right.
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: You get out there doing your thing and whatever man, I don't need this, I'm spiritual and that's the thing.
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: Right, oscar they're, and it's kind of become in a sense like the new religion of America really in a way.
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: But, ray, back in the day it was a given almost that everybody was a part of the Christian, even in New Zealand, here in America back in the 50s, 60s, maybe even a little after that.
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: It was a semblance of the fear of God.
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: It was Billy Graham's.
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: Crusades were just massive right across the world and people respected the 10 commandments.
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: They had a measure of the fear of God and they considered America, especially, to be a Christian nation.
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: But things have changed.
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: But, as I said before, covid did us a huge favor in taking a whole generation and facing them with their own mortality.
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: The fields are white unto harvest.
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: I've never, ever, prayed with as many people as I have in the last year.
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: Wow, they're really as long as the gospel's presented to them not as a life improvement but as a lifesaver.
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: Wow, that's the key.
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: Like that candy.
• 19:52
  Speaker 4: That little light?
• 19:52
  Speaker 4: No, no, Mark, you seem to have got it wrong.
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: Let me see if I can slap your face.
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: You know what?
• 19:57
  Speaker 3: You make such an important point because I think that so many people can get disheartened by these numbers, and I think, ultimately, that it's incumbent upon the churches to really look at themselves and go man, what are we doing?
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: Do we have a love for these people who are self-identified as none?
• 20:14
  Speaker 3: Or do we just scoff at them and go, ah, this is the problem with the secular world Everyone's moving away from God.
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: But you make a really good point, which is that there are still people to this day.
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: Those people are haunted by the gospel.
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: Something's a phrase used by Charles Taylor, and I just want to propose three things, three ways to reach the nuns.
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: First, we need to recognize that they're politically.
• 20:36
  Speaker 3: They are not motivated by politics, which means they're also turned off by strong political views.
• 20:45
  Speaker 3: And so, if you're gonna preach about sin man, preach about the sin in the heart of the people, not sin on the left.
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: Because if you have a non-believer that walk into your church and you get up and all you do is rail against the left and be like but you know, christianity is the answer to all that, it's like I'm not.
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: It just feels like more of the stuff that they see on Twitter and other stuff preach to the heart of the people.
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: The second thing is is there is a loneliness epidemic amongst among the nuns.
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: They're trying to find community in golf, in sports, in gyms memberships, over and over again.
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: But the community they're actually designed for in need is gospel community.
• 21:24
  Speaker 3: They don't need blue checkmark Christians, which is what you just brought up.
• 21:27
  Speaker 3: They don't need a dynamic preacher or communicator.
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: Ultimately, when a non-believer, when an unchurched person, when a nun walks into your church, what they need is a community of authentic Christians that are interested in entering into discipleship, community.
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: That's what they're looking for.
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: And then, finally, to your point, ray, they are you know, I once heard this phrase like secularism is a sidewalk with more and more cracks in it.
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: What we need as preachers, as communicators, as churches, is to re-enchant the disenchanted world that we live in.
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: All around us, we're told that everything is just material, that everything is an issue of neurons and synapses in your brain.
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: All of the solutions that we have are all nihilistic in nature, but our hearts are crying out for something so much more.
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: Our hearts desire, they need, they crave transcendence.
• 22:31
  Speaker 3: And so these churches, these big box churches that move away from things like confessions and liturgies and meaningful worship and preaching of God's word and they move towards just like feel good entertainment.
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: You're not fooling anybody.
• 22:47
  Speaker 3: They don't need more secular entertainment.
• 22:51
  Speaker 3: What they need is the gospel.
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: I love that idea.
• 22:54
  Speaker 3: Again, secularism is a sidewalk with more and more cracks in it, and someone once pointed out theism is sidewalk with more and more cracks in it.
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: And, and someone once pointed out, the gospel is like this seed, like an Oak tree seed that makes its way into one of those cement cracks, it looks like nothing could be planted.
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: But when that Oak tree seed falls into one of those cracks over time.
• 23:16
  Speaker 3: What's birthed out of that is this tree that absolutely destroys the sidewalk.
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: Plant seeds of the gospel in those sidewalks.
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: Man and watch God work.
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: What a great analogy that is.
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: We had a bird plant, a fig tree seed, at the base of one of the walls by a house.
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: I thought it was really great until the wall started.
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: I thought that wall's going to fall over us because there's nothing stopping it.
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: We didn't water it, it had no soil, it just started growing up and I thought I've got to get rid of that because it's so powerful.
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: That's the gospel.
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: I don't know about you guys, but I'm starting to feel refreshed now.
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: When I run into unbelievers as I'm witnessing to them and they don't really have any clue about the gospel, it used to disillusion me.
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: I used to feel like man.
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: What's going on?
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: Now?
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: It's like I want them to be fully lost.
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: I want them to be refreshed by the newness of the gospel.
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: I mean again, you would think in America it's preposterous, someone doesn't know the gospel.
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: But I'm seeing it more and more and part of me is like, okay, good, now let me tell you, let me refresh you with this thing, that you're not inoculated to.
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: A great question to ask them say have you ever heard the gospel?
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: And I find unbelievers say no, don't know what you're talking about, so let me share it with you.
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: Get your thoughts.
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean even times when I've asked you know what Jesus did?
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: Like they don't.
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: They're totally disconnected.
• 24:39
  Speaker 4: Where did that come from?
• 24:40
  Speaker 4: I mean because it hasn't been that long since this has started to take place.
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I think it's the shift of generational Christ-centeredness, meaning that you've got families that now it's like a generational thing, whereas before it's like, yeah, my parents are believers, but I don't believe.
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: Now it's my parents don't even believe.
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: I was talking to a young man recently and he's just like, yeah, I didn't grow up with that, you know, and that's becoming more and more, but now it's like grandparents, parents and grandparents and parents, and then them, and it's just lost, it's not talked about.
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: Christmas has become so secularized people don't even know it's about Jesus.
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: No prayer in schools.
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: No Bible in schools.
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's no more.
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: It's become watered down.
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: So it's like, yeah, and maybe it's good, maybe that's what we need in our culture.
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: So, mark, I want to ask you from an apologetics standpoint.
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: Our good friend, emilio Ramos, he's passionate about apologetics, but he's been saying like apologetics has changed from what it used to be in terms of, like, giving people all this evidence and trying to.
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: You know, these new paradigms now are bringing us to a place where we need to approach it differently.
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: What are your thoughts on that?
• 25:58
  Speaker 4: I don't remember what he said on how we approach it differently, but I am noticing that people are not necessarily needing evidence.
• 26:04
  Speaker 4: We're not engaging in this evidential conversation more and more to try to demonstrate and prove that Christianity is true.
• 26:11
  Speaker 4: It is definitely a swing over towards that presuppositional approach which obviously you and I, we all love that more than anything, because the Word of God is our ultimate foundation.
• 26:20
  Speaker 4: I was talking to Corey McKenna from Cross Current Ministries up in Canada.
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, love that guy.
• 26:25
  Speaker 4: Oh he's, I highly recommend him.
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: He's coming out soon.
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: Actually, he is going to be coming out soon.
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: Oh dear, don't say that about me.
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah the clock.
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: Oh man, yeah, that sits out there.
• 26:40
  Speaker 4: Good work, guys.
• 26:40
  Speaker 4: One man destroyed.
• 26:41
  Speaker 4: Sorry, corey, but he talks about a return to simple Scripture, quoting and giving Scripture as answers through different things.
• 26:46
  Speaker 4: Right, because the Word of God is living and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword.
• 26:49
  Speaker 4: It accomplishes what God wants it to accomplish.
• 26:52
  Speaker 4: This does not mean we speak in King James English, but this just simply means what they need is the Word of God, because the Word of God, it changes and it transforms people.
• 27:03
  Speaker 4: Right, so the more and more are apologetic, and I think, now that I refresh my memory what Amelia was saying, something very similar that utilizing the Word of God for our answers, because the Bible is our ultimate source of authority, is enough within the apologetical world.
• 27:18
  Speaker 4: Nothing wrong with answering questions, but a lot of the questions are not being asked the way they were being asked in the past.
• 27:24
  Speaker 4: Right, so it's sticking to the real essentials why am I here, how did I get here, what is the meaning of life and what's going to happen to me when I die?
• 27:32
  Speaker 4: Many good religions out there, in the sense that they seem to be good at a surface level, but they don't deal with the sin issue, and this is what man is dealing with.
• 27:41
  Speaker 4: I remember reading a statistic not too long ago who the head of a psychiatric ward had invited a pastor into that ward and said if you can just talk scripture into these people's lives and give them hope, because they feel so hopeless and your religion offers the hope that these people need, then we would close the doors tomorrow because of what is needed today, that there's just this guilt and this condemnation inside their lives and they've tried religion and maybe if they tried Christianity it's more of like a toothpaste right, let's see if this flavor is better than that flavor, but there's no true repentance and a turning from sin and turning to Christ who can set them free, sticking to the word of God.
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: Amen.
• 28:26
  Speaker 3: Can I answer that question?
• 28:27
  Speaker 3: Yes, I read these two books a few years ago and they were so powerful.
• 28:33
  Speaker 3: One of them not necessarily, this is not a book recommendation, it's written by a Catholic and there's definitely some redeemable aspects of this book and certainly aspects of it that are rejectable.
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: But it's called Apologetics in the Christian Imagination, an Integrated Approach to Defending the Faith by Holly Ordway.
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: And then, right after that, I read another book called Telling a Better Story, which is a I would recommend that book if you're interested how to Talk About God in a Skeptical Age by Josh Chartereau.
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: And one of the things that they pointed out is that so often in apologetics we aim for the head.
• 29:08
  Speaker 3: We come in hard and fast with what we know is true, with facts, and praise God, amen, because truth is on our side.
• 29:15
  Speaker 3: But they point out that people don't come to believe something because it's true, the facts.
• 29:22
  Speaker 3: They come to believe something because it's beautiful and ultimately we are storytelling creatures.
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: We believe the stories that we are told and we believe the stories we tell about ourselves, and often we hit apologetics with like, yeah, but what is truth?
• 29:41
  Speaker 3: And truth is this and truth is that.
• 29:43
  Speaker 3: And facts one, two, three, four and five now believe and we're hitting them in the head and often we like dang, I just nailed it, Like I gave them all the facts and they just go.
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know, I'm not into it Because nothing has changed in the heart, right, but the story of the gospel is the most beautiful story ever told and it has the power to transform your heart.
• 30:08
  Speaker 3: And so when you preach the gospel, preach it not just as a facts-based lecture, preach it as a beautiful story, the story of God reconciling the world to himself.
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: Amen, oh, I love that.
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: I really want to dig a little deeper into that, actually, but before that, ray, this just really hit me.
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: I would say you are truly the expert on this current generation right now.
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: No, seriously, I don't know of anyone else who speaks to college-aged young people who fit within this nuns category more than you Every single day, multiple people.
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: I'd love you, ray, to just hit on what is the thing that is sticking out to you most about them?
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: What is that salient point that you can't shake in terms of like?
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: This is a constant or a recurring theme with this generation.
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: Mainly that the issue is always boiling down to men love darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil.
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: We address the intellect because we think that's going to solve the problem, when the problem is the moral heart, the darkened heart, the heart that loves sin and drinks an equally light water and whose eyes are full of adultery.
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: And you've got to address that and so the will to live, addressing the conscience, going through the commandments, making that conscience come alive.
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: I've been shocked lately and I don't know why.
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: I don't get used to it but I don't.
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: I've said to a number of young guys Jesus said you shall not commit adultery.
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: Have you ever committed adultery?
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: Because I wanted to move to the last?
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: And they say yes, really, and it's happened so many times.
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: I thought what is going on, wow?
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: And then I say did you feel guilty?
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: Do you feel guilty about your sin?
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: They say no.
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: I said you feel guilty the first time you ever looked at pornography?
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: And this guy says yeah, first time.
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: Then it says it got easier after that, didn't it?
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: and he said yeah, and I said now you're dead in your conscience, you've taken the battery out of the smoke detector and that's a very dangerous place to be in.
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: And the wonderful thing is that these kids are made in the image of God and what I'm saying resonates with them, even though they don't like it.
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: They love their sin.
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: They know what I'm saying is true because the conscience is bearing witness, as Romans 2, verse 14 and 15 says.
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: You know, ray, let me tell you why this lights me up right now.
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: I'm so excited.
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: I've just realized right now how so out of like touch I am with the fact that this is so new to people.
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: Like we hear the gospel how many of your videos have we watched?
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: We're sharing the gospel all the time.
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: We take it for granted that everybody kind of knows this.
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: It's like we're just.
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: This is like brand new.
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: Who has someone approach them on their college campus or wherever?
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: How many of these people have had someone really say this stuff to them?
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: And that's why, like, we see so many surprised looks on people's faces or like that agreement, like whoa or people thank you after you witnessed to them.
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: Like that really is making me think.
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: I thought I was going to get beaten up last Sunday Really.
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: So I'm like that really is making me think I thought I was going to get beaten up last Sunday.
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: Really, I went to what was her name?
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: No, as if a woman would beat me up.
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: Those are the only people that have beat Ray up anyway.
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: What an embarrassing thing to say but this guy is cleaning out his car.
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: And I went and said, would you like to do a YouTube interview?
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: And he said yeah, and he made me wait for 10 minutes while he finished cleaning his car.
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: He was kind of a bit arrogant, wow.
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: And then I asked him um, I said have you heard of ms-13?
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: And he says yes, gang.
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: I said where from?
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: And it's uh, el salvador.
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: And he knew that.
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: And I said they've rounded up thousands of these criminals and put them in prison for life.
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: I said you know how they're able to identify them?
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: And he said no, so they've got tattoos saying all over them, MS-13, MS-13.
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: They're labeled, so they just round them up and threw them in prison and they're stuck there for life and man it's just so terrifying how there's no comfort in there.
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: They use that word no mattresses, no pillows, no nothing.
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: You just you've got a toilet over there.
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: There's 40 of you in a cell and they have to exercise and there's just no way out.
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: When you see it, it's just impossible to get out, and we have identified ourselves as the gang of Adam.
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: There's a mark on our flesh and there's no getting out of it.
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: And I was doing.
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: I just finished a video on body language, on how, when someone's getting upset with you, they pull their lips in like this yeah, and he did it Wow.
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: When I was talking to him and he says why are you doing this to me?
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: He says I don't need this now.
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: I says well, can you be patient with me?
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: No, I've given you a chance.
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: And he walked away from me and he says says you're not making me feel guilty.
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: He says I haven't done anything bad yet.
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: Oh, and that word yet was just such a threat and I thought it's just him and me here, and so I talked very gently with him and talked about you know, you've got a.
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: You're not going to appreciate a cure unless you realize you've got the disease.
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: I'm showing you've got a disease anyway.
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: We went through the gospel and then he said uh, I've got a Bible in my glove box and one in my trunk.
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: He softened and he said I'm so glad we talked today, Wow.
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: I thought you were going to say it ended with him walking off.
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: No, he said I'm so glad we talked today, it was just beautiful.
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: Wow, that's amazing right.
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and then I've got another guy doing the lip thing in Huntington Beach.
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: He was idolatrous.
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: He knew what idolatry was and he said are you saying I'm an idol?
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: Are you insinuating I'm an idolater?
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: I says, no, I'm saying it.
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: And that's when his lip and we do a close-up on his lip going in like this, and he ended up okay too, so it's an exciting video.
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: I thought, ray, you were going to have a conclusion with that guy, like you did with the Jehovah's Witness at the door.
• 36:00
  Speaker 4: I am MS-13.
• 36:02
  Speaker 4: , ray I would like to know the transition when you realize that there's the hostility there.
• 36:08
  Speaker 4: How do you begin to backtrack, or where does your anger go?
• 36:11
  Speaker 4: Do you get high-pitched like easy?
• 36:13
  Speaker 4: I mean what?
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: happens.
• 36:15
  Speaker 4: How do you get out?
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: of that, just say I said I'm not trying to make you feel guilty and he says you're not going to and it was, but he went really quiet and I just thank God that he went quiet.
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: Was he like a mean looking guy?
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: He was a mean looking guy and he had a cigarette here and he had a bandana that he pulled over his head while he was talking to me.
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: While I was talking, he looks down to his phone.
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: I had to follow the camera right down to his face because he was getting out of frame.
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: But he was very, very uncomfortable.
• 36:38
  Speaker 4: Wow.
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: So for him to come around like that was just wonderful.
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: And then I come home and say to Sue, nearly got beat up.
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: She says oh yeah, what's that?
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: Oh, ray, that is so inspiring, seriously, of the reminder of persevering.
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: I think one of the things we do unintentionally is we remove the element of faith from evangelism.
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: You know, when you're out witnessing, first of all to go out and do it as a step of faith, you're saying I believe the gospel is important, I believe heaven and hell are real, I believe people are gonna face the wrath of God if they don't repent.
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: And then you're persevering in that evangelism, when people are being negative or threatening, is a demonstration of faith.
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: Lord, I believe if this guy punches me, it's for the sake of the gospel, and blessed am I.
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: You know, if he kills me, I'm going to heaven.
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: There's not much to punch, there's no real challenge.
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: That's true, but you know what I'm saying.
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: We have to remember that we live by faith, we walk by faith.
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: Without faith, it's impossible to please.
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: God, and when you come away, you're trusting that.
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: that's the seed that's going to break through the concrete Right and even if they don't react well, you're trusting.
• 37:44
  Speaker 4: Yeah, the Lord still did his work, despite whatever I felt Do you guys still feel that reluctance when you go out to share the gospel, like Ray.
• 37:52
  Speaker 4: When you go out on Saturdays or go to the St Louis College, do you think to yourself.
• 37:55
  Speaker 4: College, do you think to yourself?
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: I really would much rather be making toast and honey, or rather watch rugby with flies on it always all the time.
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, every time you're like absolutely, and you know the deception mark is in those moments where I think I've, I've finally arrived, I'm not nervous anymore, yes, I mean, and then like the next day you know there's people listening that think that somehow we're all super human.
• 38:19
  Speaker 4: We don't struggle with any sort of fear or reluctance we're good actors.
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: We're good actors when they see us on camera.
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: Well, we're firefighters, and a firefighter is fearful, but he's got a priority to rescue the people that are going to burn to death absolutely yeah, and and again, it's, it's.
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: It's that faith of just saying lord, this is more important than my feelings.
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: Look, there's times when we do have those days, like I just said, where you feel fine, it could be even a little season, but then it kicks in again, you know, and what are we going to do?
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: It's the same with fasting.
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: I thought I'd totally overcome fasting a few years ago.
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: I thought look at me, I'm just not even tempted.
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: And then it just became horrible, right, so yeah.
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: So, mark, I want to get back to that beauty that I said I want us to get back to, that Oscar was touching on.
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: You have inspired me a lot, because one of your very evident pursuits is wanting to fully and clearly present the gospel.
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: You've been studying this for a very, very long time and I think sometimes look, time is limited, every circumstance is different.
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: But when we have that opportunity to really engage someone, mark, how important is it to exalt Christ in His beauty and who he is.
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: And a part of that, I think, is taking for granted that people know how they know about Jesus.
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: They don't.
• 39:33
  Speaker 4: Yeah, john Stott said you cannot properly preach the gospel if you do not properly preach Christ.
• 39:37
  Speaker 4: One of the greatest things that I love doing as I go through the law to bring the knowledge of sin is to really camp out on the first three commandments.
• 39:44
  Speaker 4: You know we talk a lot about lying and stealing and adultery and blasphemy right, but the I mean blasphemy is important right.
• 39:51
  Speaker 4: It's really a third right.
• 39:53
  Speaker 4: So the idea of exalting God in the midst of the first commandment God is sovereign right.
• 39:58
  Speaker 4: He does whatever he wants whenever he wants, to whomever he wants, he answers no one doesn't care what you think about it and then begin to slowly break down the attributes and the character of God, demonstrating that we are not like God and then elevating primarily the holiness of God in contrast to the depravity of man.
• 40:15
  Speaker 4: As you continually go through the commandments, it is putting a weight upon them and then you're continually going back to the greatness and the magnificence of God.
• 40:25
  Speaker 4: I'm absolutely in love with the idea of going through those first three commandments and elevating how you are to have know that God's before but God, you're to love him with all of your heart, soul, mind and strength.
• 40:34
  Speaker 4: You're not to make a God with your mind through with idolatry, and then third with the blasphemy, and then I've been finding myself kind of skimming through the other commandments a little bit right, just because it is so important to make much of God.
• 40:50
  Speaker 4: How many times have we heard somebody give their testimony and they talk about all these horrific things they did and then, almost as a footnote, as an end note, they said, oh, and then God saved me, and they talk about all of these horrific things they did and then, almost as a footnote, as an end note, they said, oh, and then God saved me, and they make very little of God.
• 41:04
  Speaker 4: It needs to be the other way around.
• 41:06
  Speaker 4: Let's make little of perhaps spend a little bit amount of time of what we've done, but what great work God has done and what he's capable of doing.
• 41:13
  Speaker 4: You know, my friends had a my kids have a childhood friend who just recently came back inside their life Kind of a tumultuous family life and he came inside.
• 41:23
  Speaker 4: They hung out with my kids last night and my son Noah was trying to reason with them and he was saying listen, you don't know what I have done.
• 41:31
  Speaker 4: You don't know what I've done.
• 41:33
  Speaker 4: There's no way that God can forgive me for the things that I've done.
• 41:36
  Speaker 4: He says you don't understand grace.
• 41:39
  Speaker 4: Then and then opening up grace, that unmerited favor, and he's still.
• 41:44
  Speaker 4: It's not clicking with him because we get so overwhelmed by that man inside the mirror.
• 41:49
  Speaker 4: But yeah, having a clear, complete evangelistic message that makes much about God, I think is the best route to go when you have the opportunity and the time to do so.
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think of Philippians 2 approach of like, listen, this is who Christ is, right Like.
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: He didn't consider robbery to be equal with God, right, so he's God, the son.
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: He's a second person of the triune, Godhead, clothed in splendor and magnificence throughout all eternity, the creator of the universe.
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: Right, Just building up Christ.
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: And then look at what he did.
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: He took the form of a bondservant and came in the likeness of men and he humbled himself to the point of that.
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: This God is the God.
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: Every sin you've committed has been directly against him.
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: Every time you've sinned, you've spat in his face and said you mean nothing, you are a microscopic being.
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: And then look at what he did, Look at what he endured, for I mean right Also.
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: This generation needs to hear that and to be moved by that.
• 42:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and the tap and the you know ultimately to recognize Romans tells us that the longing of our hearts, the law of the Lord, is written on our hearts and often that puts us, that puts itself on display in the way that they, the nuns, will long for God.
• 43:05
  Speaker 3: I'm remembering this.
• 43:06
  Speaker 3: One time I walked out of a actually let me tell a different story when I was in, when I was on a recent trip.
• 43:12
  Speaker 3: I want to be careful.
• 43:13
  Speaker 3: I'm going to, I'm going to live edit here, because I don't know where this person is right now and whatever the case.
• 43:18
  Speaker 3: So I want to respect them.
• 43:18
  Speaker 3: But I was on this trip and I had some time to kill.
• 43:21
  Speaker 3: So I'm just sitting down reading a book and this person sits next to me and he's this big, strong looking dude, just like Ray If Ray was twice as big and you know it ends up he's he's a police officer and whatever the case.
• 43:37
  Speaker 3: And so you know I sit down and I'm like I don't want to have this conversation with this guy right now.
• 43:43
  Speaker 3: I'm on this trip.
• 43:44
  Speaker 3: There's this moment to myself, I just want to read my book and relax.
• 43:48
  Speaker 3: And it's kind of like what we were talking about earlier, like I don't want to do this.
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: I don't want to share the gospel.
• 43:54
  Speaker 3: I don't want to have a conversation with this guy.
• 43:56
  Speaker 3: I just want to have a conversation with this guy.
• 43:57
  Speaker 3: I just want to be alone.
• 43:58
  Speaker 3: But the Lord was just convicting me to strike up a conversation.
• 44:01
  Speaker 3: And so I look over at him and we start talking and he starts telling me how he's, you know, divorced twice, strained from one of his kids, lonely, and I start to share the gospel with him and he gets up at the end of our conversation and he kind of like stands there for a second and he goes.
• 44:20
  Speaker 3: I got to tell you something when I sat in that chair.
• 44:23
  Speaker 3: I was not in a good place, but I'm really glad we talked.
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: And.
• 44:28
  Speaker 3: I happen to be preaching at church the next Sunday, so I invite him and then at 6 18 AM that Sunday he sends a email to the church.
• 44:34
  Speaker 3: I'm going to live edit here for privacy reasons, but he says hello, you have a speaker this Sunday that I met Saturday.
• 44:42
  Speaker 3: It was a very moving and profound meeting at a time where I was very much in a hurting mindset.
• 44:47
  Speaker 3: I only know his first name is Oscar.
• 44:49
  Speaker 3: We met, that is to say, god put him in my life.
• 44:53
  Speaker 3: I've been up all night contemplating our conversation.
• 44:56
  Speaker 3: Sadly I will not be able to make it to your service, but I would love his contact information.
• 45:01
  Speaker 3: And so you know, I guess the point here is like people are longing for the gospel.
• 45:08
  Speaker 3: They are desperate for the goodness of the glory of God.
• 45:13
  Speaker 3: Their souls thirst for that truth.
• 45:16
  Speaker 3: And when we make ourselves available to these nuns, to have a meaningful conversation with them, to meet them where they're at man, the gospel seed will go to work.
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: And you take everything you just said, oscar, like right now all of us at the table here are moved by that testimony.
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: Right, and we can all think back on stories we've had where people were impacted by the gospel.
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: Mark, you went out recently.
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: You did some interviews.
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: You said they were the most amazing you've ever done.
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: Right, I'm sure you didn't feel like going out and doing those interviews that day.
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: I was thinking of ways out of it.
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah right, I just recently was taking a lift to the airport and I shared the gospel with my driver.
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: We ended up getting in touch.
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: I take him out to dinner.
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: I've been sharing the gospel with him.
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: Just radical impact right.
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: I did not feel like talking to him at four o'clock in the morning about the gospels.
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: We're headed to the airport.
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: But, like, when we think of all this, ray, all the stories you just shared with us of people you've encountered, like this should make all of us and those of you listening right now say who cares about my stupid fear, my self-centered, selfish desire for comfort, not for someone to think of something.
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: I mean, we're not getting stoned, we're not getting shot at.
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: We just need to wake up and say nothing is more important than giving people the gospel and to watch God move and look.
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: Even if you don't get those responses, look at the letter I read recently on a podcast, a guy that used to hear Ray in the square in New Zealand and he said he used to write him off and now the Lord grabbed him.
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: All of that was planting and watering.
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: We have to remember that.
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: And, ray, I just want to touch on one thing too, because recently I saw you talking to a young man and I was so blown away because he was coming at you from an intellectual standpoint.
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: You talked earlier about we need to be careful about going for the intellect all the time and you went with your simple building builder painting painter and you said does that make sense?
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it really does.
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: And I was like this guy's getting all intellectual on you and you just hit him with that simplicity.
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: The beauty of that we don't have to get all intellectual.
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: Yes, that reminds me of a quote by james b shaw, who said morality without religion is a tree without roots, a stream without any spring to feed it, a house built on sand, a pleasant place to live till the heavens grow dark and the storm begins to beat.
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: Was he sure.
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: He was totally sure, Be sure oh that's so good.
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: And, friends, we hope you're stirred up today.
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: We hope you're encouraged.
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: Look, there are nuns all around you.
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: They're not wearing habits okay.
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: They're not chanting in some Catholic church.
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: These are lost people Generation X, Generation Z.
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: We need to reach them with the gospel.
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: Sorry, Millennials and Generation Z.
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: We need to reach them with the gospel.
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: We have it.
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: Let's not hoard it, let's make it known for the glory of.
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: God.
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: Thank you for joining us, friends.
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: We'll see you here next time on the Living Waters Podcast.