Latest / The Redeemed Backslider / The Hardship of Grief TRB #27 Keri Rodriguez

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The Hardship of Grief TRB #27 Keri Rodriguez · The Redeemed Backslider

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Redeemed Backslider with your host, kathy Chastain.
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Christian-based psychotherapist and Redeemed Backslider.
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: This podcast is dedicated to those who have wandered but are ready to return to the life-changing power of grace and the freedom found in Jesus.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: Hi, welcome to the Redeemed Backslider.
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: I'm your host, kathy Chastain.
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: I'm a Christian-based psychotherapist and I'm also a Redeemed Backslider.
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: With me in the studio today is my friend, keri Rodriguez.
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: Some of you who have been following our podcast for a while may have seen her early episode I think she was episode three or four when we first began and she told her story of coming back to the Lord after over 20 years of being away from God, and her father is our bishop and so she was raised in church and so, um, you know, god has really done an amazing work in her life and, um, I brought her back today because I wanted to talk about a subject that I think um is very important and I think it's where a lot of people live, and that subject is grief.
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: Um, and without telling all of her story, I'm going to let her do that.
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: She lost her grandbaby when her grandbaby was not even three years old, and so, as a backslider, coming back to church and navigating the process of grief and all the things that go along with it navigating the process of grief and all the things that go along with it I wanted everyone out there to hear some of the process, because we all suffer grief in different ways, and I think it's very easy for us to just, you know, slap a scripture on the back of pain.
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: And you know, I just did the episode on spiritual bypass and just bypass the process of grief without allowing it to do the work in us and allowing God to really heal, and you know.
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: So I'm glad you were able to come back and I know you're going to need these tissue.
• 2:21
  Speaker 3: This one's going to be rough.
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: Because it's still very, very fresh.
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: So Everly was your granddaughter, and she was diagnosed with cancer at 18 months, so a year and a half years old.
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: So why don't you tell us about what happened, how you guys began to notice that she was sick or that something was wrong, and maybe just walk us through the details of that process?
• 2:51
  Speaker 3: She was actually about 16 months old, not that that matters, but she really didn't have, we didn't notice anything abnormal.
• 3:00
  Speaker 3: She was acting fine for her age when my daughter actually she started getting like black under her eyes.
• 3:09
  Speaker 3: Well, actually they weren't black, they looked.
• 3:12
  Speaker 3: They call them raccoon eyes because it's neuroblastoma cancer and if you look up neuroblastoma, that's one of the first signs.
• 3:17
  Speaker 3: They get what's called raccoon eyes.
• 3:19
  Speaker 3: It just looks like bruising and at first we, you know, we were kind of just brushing it off.
• 3:26
  Speaker 3: You know, well, she's growing, maybe she fell.
• 3:29
  Speaker 3: I mean, we don't know, you know, you never, ever, ever are thinking it's cancer, right At that age.
• 3:36
  Speaker 3: At that age I mean that just never crossed our mind, and so my daughter was able to get her into her doctor pretty quickly I want to say it was like a day or so from first noticing, and when she got her into the pediatrician it was interesting because the pediatrician had just seen another little boy and diagnosed him with the same cancer about six months prior to Everly same pediatrician office, so she already knew what it was.
• 4:07
  Speaker 3: When my daughter brought her in um, she didn't tell her though, she told her just to take her to valley children's to get labs that day.
• 4:13
  Speaker 3: So she made her, she, she told her basically to leave from the office and go straight to valley children's, so that had to have already sent off red flags for kayla, but we still weren't thinking cancer I.
• 4:24
  Speaker 3: I mean we were just like, okay, well, you know something's wrong, but we don't know what.
• 4:27
  Speaker 3: So Kayla called me because I was at work, asked me to go with her.
• 4:32
  Speaker 3: I mean we again, we didn't think it was going to be a big deal.
• 4:34
  Speaker 3: We're like, okay, we'll go up for labs, we'll come back, whatever.
• 4:36
  Speaker 3: So I leave work, I go home, I pick her up and we go to Valley Children's.
• 4:41
  Speaker 3: And we get to Valley Children's and they, they knew.
• 4:49
  Speaker 3: So they, the first thing I think one of the first things they did in the ER was do an ultrasound and found the tumor in her abdomen.
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: So right, then I mean that that will within within.
• 5:01
  Speaker 3: I don't even remember if they drew labs.
• 5:02
  Speaker 3: To be honest, they it was basically an ultrasound the labs Within.
• 5:04
  Speaker 3: I don't even remember if they drew labs.
• 5:05
  Speaker 3: To be honest, it was basically an ultrasound.
• 5:06
  Speaker 3: So, within us.
• 5:07
  Speaker 3: I want to say I don't remember exactly, but I want to say within like six hours, we had a diagnosis.
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh.
• 5:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and it was I mean traumatizing.
• 5:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 5:16
  Speaker 3: Watching my first.
• 5:21
  Speaker 3: We're all blindsided by it.
• 5:24
  Speaker 3: Watching my daughter just break down in the ER.
• 5:27
  Speaker 3: And I mean it's just, I'll never forget that day.
• 5:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah, traumatizing, yeah, and there's nothing I can do?
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: no, there's nothing, complete helplessness, yeah there's no.
• 5:36
  Speaker 3: I mean I'm just reeling from the diagnosis and I can't help my daughter or my grandbaby, it's like whatbaby.
• 5:44
  Speaker 3: You feel so helpless.
• 5:46
  Speaker 3: So helpless.
• 5:47
  Speaker 3: So that was the beginning of our journey.
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: And so did they keep Everly that day.
• 5:53
  Speaker 3: Oh, yes, okay, and this all happened.
• 5:57
  Speaker 3: It was December 23rd two days before Christmas and so they end up admitting her.
• 6:04
  Speaker 3: So we're in the hospital, valley Children's Um, they it was.
• 6:10
  Speaker 3: It was kind of I don't want to go into too much detail cause it's kind of like and the way that they did it wasn't wasn't great because they they knew she had cancer, but because it was holiday season they were low staff so they didn't get her started on chemo right away and just a lot of things were not falling into.
• 6:23
  Speaker 3: They were low staff so they didn't get her started on chemo right away and just a lot of things were not falling into place as they should have.
• 6:29
  Speaker 3: So we ended up being there a lot longer than we should have been and it was after New Year's by the time she got released to come home like, had her first treatment and then came home, and it was a long couple of weeks but yeah, she just kept getting sicker and sicker and sicker and sicker and then they finally just had to rush and do chemo.
• 6:48
  Speaker 3: Whether they were low staff or not, it didn't matter.
• 6:51
  Speaker 3: But, yeah.
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: So what did that look like for you guys that day?
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: Did you immediately call your dad, immediately call the church?
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: Well, because it was just me and Kayla there with the baby.
• 7:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 7:02
  Speaker 3: So she called Kenneth, which is Everly's dad, I called Manuel, which is my husband.
• 7:07
  Speaker 3: I called my parents and everybody came and we were just.
• 7:14
  Speaker 3: It was just.
• 7:15
  Speaker 3: Life stops.
• 7:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean you literally that's.
• 7:20
  Speaker 3: I mean, you can't even think.
• 7:22
  Speaker 3: It's literally just like a standstill in your life and I mean there's no I I've.
• 7:29
  Speaker 3: I've never felt that way before in my life.
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, never, yeah, so yeah, I I can't have one experience of watching my son go through something where I felt complete helpless and I cannot imagine.
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: You know it's heartbreaking to hear them scream and to hear them you know.
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: In his case he thought his wife was dying and you don't know.
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: But that threat is so surreal and I cannot imagine your position.
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: I know I asked you that in a text.
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: How on earth did you survive?
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: Because you just can't imagine.
• 8:22
  Speaker 3: No, I mean, and honestly, once she started treatment it was kind of just a whirlwind of we didn't think about it anymore.
• 8:29
  Speaker 3: It was just she had to have it yeah it's constant back and forth Valley Children's to home Valley.
• 8:34
  Speaker 3: Luckily it wasn't that far, but then as things progressed, valley Children's basically was like there's nothing more we can do.
• 8:41
  Speaker 3: Um.
• 8:42
  Speaker 3: So my daughter reached out to ucsf.
• 8:45
  Speaker 3: They took her on as a patient and actually I mean looking back, ucsf gave us another year with her.
• 8:51
  Speaker 3: They were able to continue doing treatment, trying you know some different things, and they, they bought us a year we got.
• 8:58
  Speaker 3: we got another year with her, um, but that was a little even harder because you know now we're traveling back and forth from San Francisco home and but I don't care.
• 9:07
  Speaker 3: I would do it again in a heartbeat Right.
• 9:09
  Speaker 3: I would do it for the rest of my life, right, right, if I could.
• 9:12
  Speaker 3: But, yeah, our life basically.
• 9:15
  Speaker 3: From that point forward, it was just a whirlwind, yeah, like we didn't have time to stop and think about it.
• 9:21
  Speaker 3: It was just, we just did it.
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: So carrie, tell us a little bit about that particular cancer, because I think it's very I don't.
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: I don't.
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: You know, I'm somewhat of a conspiracy theorist because we are seeing so much more childhood cancer and I had a friend, um, whose daughter was diagnosed at an early age.
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: I don't know what type she had.
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: Faith is now in junior high school so she survived, but we watched her life go through cancer and thinking that she's better, but I feel like there has been an onslaught of more and more childhood cancer and for your pediatrician to see a kiddo six months before.
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: I just don't think that that's probably not as common in years gone by.
• 10:10
  Speaker 3: Well, and the thing is I mean nowadays, childhood cancer is not rare.
• 10:14
  Speaker 3: Cancer in itself is not rare.
• 10:15
  Speaker 3: In fact, september 1st is the beginning of Childhood Cancer Awareness Month, so that's another reason I kind of wanted to do this today, because a lot of people don't even know that, and bringing awareness to something that is supposedly rare and does not get that much funding for research is not fair.
• 10:34
  Speaker 3: It's not right.
• 10:35
  Speaker 3: These kids get 4% funding.
• 10:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's not much I mean they're children, they're getting adult chemo treatments right, right that are wrecking their bodies yeah and it's causing because, being in, you know, in the cancer world, my daughter has become friends with a lot of um other families yeah unfortunately I mean, I mean I'm it's, it's horrible, but but that's your community, but it's true because it's so much sorrow.
• 11:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and some.
• 11:02
  Speaker 3: You know some of the the, some of the kids have passed as well, but some of them are still here, but they're struggling.
• 11:09
  Speaker 3: They can't hear anymore, sometimes they lose vision, sometimes their bodies, their organs don't work.
• 11:16
  Speaker 3: There's so many effects, late term to getting these chemo treatments, and it's just not right.
• 11:25
  Speaker 3: I mean something needs to change for these kids because it's not fair to them.
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: So with that particular cancer, do you know what the survival rate is at a fast?
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: I feel like with Everly it was very fast acting.
• 11:37
  Speaker 3: Well, normally.
• 11:38
  Speaker 3: I mean, there's some kids with neuroblastoma that do live longer, but they're constantly fighting.
• 11:45
  Speaker 3: It's a very aggressive cancer.
• 11:47
  Speaker 3: I honestly I'll be honest with you I didn't do a lot of research about it, just because I didn't want to know.
• 11:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 11:52
  Speaker 3: I still haven't really.
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: My daughter could probably give you lots of facts about it, but I personally just didn't do my research.
• 11:58
  Speaker 3: I didn't do research because I didn't want to know but I do know that it's very aggressive and the problem with neuroblastoma is it's very smart cancer and it adapts to the chemo.
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: So they're getting this chemo and their their body, the cancer is like oh so it'll find a way around it, yeah, so I'm going to stay off that topic because I have theories about that.
• 12:20
  Speaker 3: But well, I probably would agree with you on most of them, so yeah, I um, yeah, anyways, so through the process.
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: So, um, kayla, um and everly's dad, they lived with you, so you had you and your husband had them home with you, so you guys were right there with him through everything up close and personal, and so the church began praying.
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: I was there for all of that and there were moments of hope.
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: Was there a time in the process that you guys felt like God was going to heal her, or that, like, can you kind of walk us through what all of that looked like?
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: I mean honestly, I told everybody that God was going to heal her or that like.
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: Can you kind of walk us through what all of that looks like?
• 13:06
  Speaker 3: I mean honestly.
• 13:07
  Speaker 3: I told everybody that God was going to heal her.
• 13:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 13:10
  Speaker 3: I told nurses at UCSF God was going to heal her.
• 13:13
  Speaker 3: They all looked at me like I was crazy.
• 13:14
  Speaker 3: Um, I told everybody I really, really, really felt like she was going to be healed.
• 13:20
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 13:21
  Speaker 3: I did and I I can't answer the question as to why God didn't heal her.
• 13:26
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 13:27
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 13:27
  Speaker 3: Only he knows.
• 13:28
  Speaker 3: Um, one of the one of the problems, like my husband brought up a point, was uh, so God just picks and chooses who he heals and who he doesn't?
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: I don't have an answer for that.
• 13:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Um, but I choose to keep my faith because I don't like to think about where I would be without it.
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: Right, right, and I'll definitely come back to that because I think I've spent a lot of time thinking about that question as it relates to death overall for kiddos and stuff death overall for kiddos and stuff, but through the process, because I can remember your dad telling us the testimonies that God had intervened and that God had done some miracles in the process, through the time and I do feel like he did, I do feel like God did, because there was many times, several, several times we almost lost her.
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: Well, I remember one in particular, that the whole family went up to San Francisco.
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: You guys thought that that was it.
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: But she rebounded.
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: So what happened in that?
• 14:38
  Speaker 3: She was actually in ICU at that time, and that was several months before her actual passing it was, yeah, and actually I had my.
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: My brother flew my dad up because the doctors basically told us she probably, probably wouldn't make it through the night.
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: So my brother flew my dad to san francisco, um, because my kayla wanted my dad to come pray and um, so, like, like I said, I mean you know we all were hopeful and believing.
• 15:09
  Speaker 3: I mean it's really all you have, I guess, when you're desperate, right?
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: So you know that time was very scary.
• 15:18
  Speaker 3: I don't know if I blocked out a lot of it, but I don't remember exact details.
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: But she was very sick and I don't remember if it was her liver or something, but there was something in her body that wasn't working and it was bad.
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: I think her body started to shut down.
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: It was really bad.
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: And so, after God intervened in a situation like that, when you were expecting to lose- her and you were probably starting the grieving process of losing her.
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: I mean, I'm sure that began the moment you got diagnosed, but but at that point and then god does intervene there's so much reason to believe he's going to finish the complete healing right.
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and then I remember so she pulls out of that.
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: And then I remember two separate instances with her ocular stuff and I don't know the details of that.
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: Do you remember that God actually healed that as well?
• 16:21
  Speaker 3: She had from the beginning.
• 16:23
  Speaker 3: She had a tumor behind her eye.
• 16:25
  Speaker 3: I think it was her left eye.
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: That was one of her tumors.
• 16:29
  Speaker 3: So she had a tumor behind her left eye and I believe the situation you're talking about was when she went in for her scans and the doctors had told my daughter and Kenneth that the tumor was all necrotic.
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: So basically it was dead, it had died off with the chemo and that was.
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: We were very, we were like that's amazing, you know necrotic is that had been prayed for.
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, right, that would.
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: Yes, that she wouldn't lose her eye, and, yes, the whole church and because she was so little we didn't know if she could even see out of that eye anymore.
• 17:07
  Speaker 3: I mean, we didn't care, We'll take that.
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: I mean even if she had to go the rest of her life with no vision in the eye, who cares?
• 17:14
  Speaker 3: But that was one of the things we had prayed for, because it was behind her eye.
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: I mean I can't imagine how painful that is for her.
• 17:20
  Speaker 3: But yeah, so that was that.
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: I think that was a situation that you're talking about, where you know it did you know?
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: That was another time where we feel like God did really come through for us, yeah, yeah.
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: And so I think you know, just from one of the people on the other side of the fence.
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: You know, going through the prayers and seeing the updates and, um, you know all of the changes that was going on throughout Um and then her eventual passing it.
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: It was a little bit shocking.
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: Maybe not shocking I don't want to use that word but to you guys, I imagine it was completely shocking.
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: Um, but it was surprising.
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: Because I imagine it was completely shocking, but it was surprising because we did see God come through multiple times in answering the prayers and I think everybody in the church was so invested in her recovery and God just doing a miracle, because we in our church had lost several members, several female members, to breast cancer and so, as Christians, we're all looking for the miracle.
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: We believe God will do miracles, we believe God will heal the sick, we believe God will rebuke cancer out of bodies and we believe all of that.
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: I think the thing that's hard to come to terms with is we know he can Right right will rebuke cancer out of bodies and we believe all of that.
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: I think the thing that's hard to come to terms with is we know he can Right, right, but why doesn't he?
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: And I think that that's always a question that, even in my faith, I ask a lot.
• 18:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I do.
• 18:59
  Speaker 4: You should, because I don't know why I don't know why and only he does.
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I don't know why, I don't know why, and only he does.
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, right.
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: Well, I, yeah, you know we can speculate, but what I think about and what I thought about with Everly is I feel like God definitely gave time.
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: For everybody gave time.
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: Yes, um for everybody and also um.
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: I mean I also think a child in their innocence is going to heaven absolutely there is no question, we know where she is about that and you know the crazier this world gets like.
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: Like I have a grandbaby and I try not to think about the future because I think about where this world is going, what I know prophecy says all those things and so I think sometimes things like this that God would take them to be in heaven with him is his goodness, and we don't know the future, only he does.
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: He knows the end from the beginning and I find comfort in knowing that.
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: I may not understand and it hurts like crazy on this earth, but I would die today and go to heaven if.
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: I could you know, because that's where we all want to be.
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: Don't get me wrong there's a lot I still want to do in this life to reach others for Jesus, but that's the end goal.
• 20:38
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: And I know that the wise we don't know.
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: But if we fundamentally believe God is good and I think that's the wrestle is do we really trust and believe that God is good and in his goodness he could have taken her to spare whatever this world has, you know, and or further suffering?
• 21:10
  Speaker 3: You know, we don't, we don't know, and that's, that's the reality of it.
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: We don't know.
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: We'll never know.
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we will never know, and I personally just have to come with terms to that, terms of it is what it is.
• 21:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 21:23
  Speaker 3: I mean, there's nothing I could beat myself up about it.
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: I could.
• 21:27
  Speaker 3: I could do a lot of things, but I choose to believe what you just said is I know where she is, I know I will see her again.
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: It's going to be different because it's not going to be like here, but it's going to be better, right, and we'll know each other, and I can't wait.
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, that's the reality of it, cause that is the end goal.
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah, right.
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: Right, and and it was also the catalyst that caused you to decide to live for God.
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: Do you want to talk about that?
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: I know we talked about a little on the podcast but, not from this complete yeah Well it was, um one of the times that we almost lost her.
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: I don't recall which one exactly, but, um, I had called my dad desperate and I, you know, and that's another thing I always knew who to call yeah, call my dad yeah uh, who else am I gonna call?
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: call my dad, um, because when I want someone to pray I call my dad and and so I called him um.
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: I was in San Francisco and I called him and I asked him.
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: I said hey, it's not looking good.
• 22:31
  Speaker 3: I need the church to pray and I need them to pray Like they, like I don't want to say they've never prayed before, but I need them to pray Like I don't want some like rinky dink little prayer.
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: I want them to pray and that's, that was probably my exact words to my dad, and he said, okay, and so I think that was a Saturday.
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: And then, sunday, I decided to watch the service on YouTube, you know, because Everly was in the hospital, I was staying at family house with manual and I was like I'm just going to tune into this service.
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: I mean, it was just you know, see, I want to watch them pray for Everly.
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: And it was a life-changing experience for me.
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: I had not logged on to a service first of all, or been to a service in a hot minute, and so I logged on to the YouTube service.
• 23:25
  Speaker 3: I watched, ended up watching the entire service in tears in the kitchen at Family House, and that was the day that my life changed and I said, no matter what happens, here come the tears, no matter what happens'm gonna go to church and I'm gonna live for God what was it about the service that changed your life?
• 23:51
  Speaker 3: you know, I I don't even know if I could pinpoint it I hadn't felt that in so long because we prayed we definitely prayed.
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: I remember that service yeah, it was.
• 24:08
  Speaker 3: It was awesome and I think just um.
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: I know that you guys touched heaven that day and I, you know, I don't know what like.
• 24:19
  Speaker 3: I said even then, I didn't know what God's plan was.
• 24:20
  Speaker 3: I I don't know what.
• 24:21
  Speaker 3: Like I said even then, I didn't know what God's plan was.
• 24:23
  Speaker 3: I don't know what his plan was for Everly at that point, but I knew that I needed to change.
• 24:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so what happened after that?
• 24:40
  Speaker 3: Well.
• 24:40
  Speaker 3: So after that, I remember that day I went and told Manuel too about the service.
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: I made him watch it and he was in tears too.
• 24:48
  Speaker 3: I mean it was very life-changing for both of us.
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: Again, I'm full of hope because I'm like, oh, god's definitely going to heal her.
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: So as time goes on, she does get a little bit.
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: It's kind of like back and forth, back and forth, and which I'm thankful for every moment I got with her, like even in the hospital, at home, like I'm thankful for all the moments.
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: But you know, eventually it was, you know, they basically discharged her home on hospice and that was, I think, may, the end of May.
• 25:28
  Speaker 3: So they discharged her home on hospice and she comes home on hospice and she's just so happy to be home.
• 25:37
  Speaker 3: And we got to make a few more memories.
• 25:40
  Speaker 3: I mean, she was bed-bound, she couldn't walk but she, um, she was just so weak and she'd been laying in bed for you know month.
• 25:48
  Speaker 3: I want to say it had been probably like two months at that point.
• 25:53
  Speaker 3: But, um, you know, she was in such good spirits cause she was home.
• 25:58
  Speaker 3: And I remember Kayla telling her no more hospitals, you never have to go back to the hospital and you know, young age of two, like she was, she's so smart and she knew, and she was like, yay, you know no more hospitals.
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: And I mean we just, and we soaked it up and then, you know, when we finally lost her, it was heart-wrenching, yeah, um yeah how did you guys do through that?
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: Not great.
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: I mean, I know I don't mean to state the obvious, but number one it's your grandbaby, yeah, and then it's also your daughter, yeah.
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: Like, do you remember?
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: Do you remember thinking any thoughts?
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: Do you remember thinking any thoughts, Do you remember?
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: Or were you just totally in the moment going through the motions?
• 26:49
  Speaker 3: whatever the moment when the like the night that we lost her, I was very self-absorbed, for sure, wrapped up in myself.
• 26:58
  Speaker 3: But then, you know, I I was trying to comfort Caleb.
• 27:01
  Speaker 3: It's like what do you do?
• 27:01
  Speaker 3: Like how am I going to come?
• 27:02
  Speaker 3: I can't come.
• 27:02
  Speaker 3: Like was trying to comfort Caleb.
• 27:03
  Speaker 3: It's like what do you do?
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: Like how am I going to come?
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: I can't come.
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: Like all I can do is hold her.
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: But what am I?
• 27:07
  Speaker 3: I can't take this pain away from her.
• 27:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I have my own pain, but I mean that's her baby.
• 27:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's her baby.
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: And as a mom watching your child, I don't know, go through something like that.
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: Like I, I mean I don't even have words.
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: I can't even describe it.
• 27:25
  Speaker 3: I have no words, yeah, no words, just better helplessness.
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I don't even know how I would describe it.
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, how long has it been now since she's been?
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: We just well.
• 27:40
  Speaker 3: This past June was a year.
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: Not very long ago.
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: So talk to me about grief Keri.
• 27:52
  Speaker 3: What are you learning in the process of all of this?
• 27:53
  Speaker 3: You know, losing a child is hard.
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: I'm losing my grandbaby and then my mom.
• 28:02
  Speaker 3: We lost six months after that, so it's kind of a double whammy for all of us.
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: Like you know, we're still reeling from losing Everly, which is a huge thing, right and then to lose my mom, and we lost my mom pretty suddenly.
• 28:16
  Speaker 3: I mean, I know she was sick, but she always bounced back, so we really didn't expect to lose her.
• 28:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so that was just like another knife in the heart.
• 28:27
  Speaker 3: Um, but grief is I, I.
• 28:32
  Speaker 3: It's a funny thing.
• 28:33
  Speaker 3: I mean, you, you do have moments where you're like, okay, I think I, I think I can do this, you know I can get through this, and then no, no, I can't.
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: I can't get through this.
• 28:42
  Speaker 3: Um, for me, the, the only thing getting me through it is god.
• 28:48
  Speaker 3: I know that for sure.
• 28:49
  Speaker 3: I don't know how other people get through it, but, um, you know he, he is close to the brokenhearted.
• 28:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but the thing is is you have to allow him to be.
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah, he's not just close to you, like you, you have to allow him to be close to you you have to allow him to heal your heart.
• 29:08
  Speaker 3: And, um, I am doing that because I, I can't do this.
• 29:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't want to do this.
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah, if I'm being honest, I don't want to, I don't want to to do this life like, like this, full of grief, yeah, um, yeah, because a lot of people lose the desire to live after they lose a love which I completely understand.
• 29:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I do, I completely understand that and it's very, I would, very, it would be very easy to go down that road yeah I mean honestly it would be, um, you know, losing everly was.
• 29:43
  Speaker 3: She was literally the center of our world, yeah, and you know.
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: And then you know, now she's not here to experience her mom having another baby, um, her little brother, and um, my mom's not here to experience that.
• 29:59
  Speaker 3: And it's just, life is just is hard.
• 30:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's so hard going through life without your two favorite people.
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I know, I think grief is something that has to be endured.
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: And you know, when I have these clients land in my office after losing their spouse or after losing their child, as a therapist I just have to tell them I have no words because you can't really comfort grief.
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: And.
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: I don't want to which.
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: I feel like I've made so many mistakes, you know, with clients, but I don't want to always just try to give them jesus as a way to have something to say and also as a way to make it better, even though I know that's exactly what's going to make it better.
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: Everybody wants to hear that right and yeah, and, and we just have to hold space for the tears and and space for the inbetween moments when you're really white, knuckling it to just survive your day.
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: And I totally mean that because I've seen people that just want to go to bed and not wake up and stop showering and stop getting dressed and all the things, because it feels so impossible to survive a loss like that.
• 31:31
  Speaker 3: It's just, it's grief is like when you lose someone, you think about them constantly.
• 31:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't care how long it's been.
• 31:39
  Speaker 3: I mean, for us it's been a year since we lost Everly.
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: It doesn't feel like a year Right, like at all, like I think about her all the time.
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah, constantly, yeah.
• 31:51
  Speaker 3: And my mom.
• 31:52
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: You know it's not.
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: I'm sure as time goes on, maybe you think about them less and less.
• 31:59
  Speaker 3: I don't feel like that's the case for me.
• 32:01
  Speaker 3: I still think about them both as much as I used to when we first lost them.
• 32:07
  Speaker 3: Like it does not get easier, life does not get easier.
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: Um, you know, and when people tell you, you know that you're so strong, and although it's nice, no, we're not.
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: Nobody wants to be strong right in these situations.
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: We're not, we don't have a choice.
• 32:25
  Speaker 3: It's just one of those things where something happens to you and I guess you do have a choice you can quit.
• 32:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's either that or you go on, and it's not like you have any other choice.
• 32:38
  Speaker 3: So you either go on or you don't.
• 32:40
  Speaker 3: I mean that's our choice.
• 32:42
  Speaker 3: So we're not strong because we want to be.
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, that's our choice, so we're not strong because we want to be Right.
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you just have to get up and take each day as it comes and get through it.
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: Sometimes it's seconds at a time, sometimes it's minutes at a time.
• 33:04
  Speaker 3: Because you know for everybody that loses someone, your entire life changes.
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah, um, whoever it is that you've lost, like, um, you know, typically if it's someone you're really close to, you have spent most of your day with them.
• 33:14
  Speaker 3: It's like, you know, my dad with my mom, like my dad took care of my mom, yeah, so for him, now he has nothing to do because he was a caregiver.
• 33:24
  Speaker 3: Same thing with Kayla, with Everly she took care of Everly.
• 33:29
  Speaker 3: It's just what do you do now?
• 33:32
  Speaker 3: How do you find?
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: what do you do?
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: And Brene Brown, which I thought was so good, she talked about there is obviously the five stages of grief and now they've added a sixth stage.
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: But Brene Brown talks about three components of grief and she said that first it's the loss.
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: You know the absence, the loss of whatever it is.
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: And then, once you adjust to that loss, and sometimes at the same time all of this occurs together then it's longing, like you long for them.
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: You.
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: The grief is that it's their absence and it's the longing.
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: And then the.
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: The third part is, um, uh, feeling lost.
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: Like I, I feel lost without them.
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: Like you said, your dad's.
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: That was so much.
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: Part of your dad's role was being the caregiver.
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: Now, who is he now?
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: Right, he's still going to be the bishop, but that's going to be on Sundays and Wednesdays, and you know what I'm saying.
• 34:39
  Speaker 3: There's still a large portion of his life, you know, built, and him and my mom, you know, built a life together.
• 34:44
  Speaker 3: They were together a long, long time and they went through.
• 34:47
  Speaker 3: You know, they had children together, grandkids and great-grandkids.
• 34:51
  Speaker 3: It's just, we all lost Everly together.
• 34:53
  Speaker 3: My mom and dad went through that with us and now my mom and Everly are together.
• 34:59
  Speaker 3: But now we're all just here, like what do we do?
• 35:04
  Speaker 3: Like I mean it's hard.
• 35:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's so hard.
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so do you have good days.
• 35:19
  Speaker 3: I mean Do you cry every day?
• 35:23
  Speaker 3: No, not as much.
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: No, not every single day anymore.
• 35:29
  Speaker 3: But that that matters, it doesn't watching.
• 35:30
  Speaker 3: But but yeah, I mean because in the beginning you do you, you cry all the time.
• 35:33
  Speaker 3: I mean, um, but I still cry often yeah, yeah.
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: I think it's so good for the soul, but it also keeps you in that place of surrender with the Lord too.
• 35:47
  Speaker 3: Well, and for us, for our family, we talk about them all the time.
• 35:52
  Speaker 3: That's very healing.
• 35:54
  Speaker 3: You need to talk about them.
• 35:56
  Speaker 3: Don't not talk about them, because you're just hurting yourself Talking about them, talking about memories, talking about what they would do if they were here.
• 36:03
  Speaker 3: We do that.
• 36:03
  Speaker 3: We talk about them, talking about memories, talking about what they would do if they were here, like we do that.
• 36:07
  Speaker 3: We talk about them all the time.
• 36:08
  Speaker 3: So I think that's very important, yeah, that you talk about them yeah, and I know, like some people, you know they don't know how to approach it.
• 36:16
  Speaker 3: Um, I I've had people say you know, I'm sorry, I didn't say anything, I didn't.
• 36:20
  Speaker 3: I don't know what to say to you and I, i's fine, you know too.
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: But you can talk about them.
• 36:27
  Speaker 3: We're okay with that.
• 36:27
  Speaker 3: Yes, we're probably going to be sad and we're probably going to, but we want you to talk about them.
• 36:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you know it's hard because people don't want to see you cry, they don't want to make you sad, but we want to talk.
• 36:38
  Speaker 3: And they don't know if it's okay.
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: But um, most of the time in my experience is we, you know, we do want to talk about them, yeah, yeah, okay, that's super helpful, I think, because it is the difficult thing what do you say to someone, what do you do?
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: Because?
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: You know we, we see you, guys.
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: I we obviously see your posts on facebook and so every time I see it, I'm like like, oh, I think about the fact that you know it's, it's so fresh, it's still so very close For us, especially like.
• 37:13
  Speaker 3: Like I said, I can only speak for for me really, but um is we?
• 37:18
  Speaker 3: I think we're more worried about people forgetting about them.
• 37:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 37:22
  Speaker 3: So talking about them is healthy for us.
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: And I think that's such an important point because I know that when other people that lose their loved ones, they are afraid that they're going to forget, and so you know, in counseling I can reassure them.
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: Oh, you're never going to forget, you know, but you don't really know that to be true until you've lived a few years.
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: You know, without them, and then you realize that they're just as close as they were, you know, when you first lost them.
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: The memories don't don't go away, so I think that's really helpful to know that you don't forget.
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: It's still all very fresh yeah, definitely.
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: So I know that, with your husband, he doesn't understand in his mind why God chose not to heal her Because, as you said, we know that God can.
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: We don't always understand why he doesn't.
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: How did um, how did your daughter and and Everly's dad um?
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: What is their position?
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: What do they think?
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: Is that a conversation that you guys have together as a family?
• 38:39
  Speaker 3: Not really Okay.
• 38:41
  Speaker 3: Um, not really.
• 38:42
  Speaker 3: I.
• 38:42
  Speaker 3: They all know where I stand on it, obviously because I'm not quiet about it, but you know they're not in church.
• 38:51
  Speaker 3: I pray for them all the time, but you know.
• 38:55
  Speaker 3: So we don't really talk about that.
• 38:56
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we don't.
• 38:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 39:00
  Speaker 3: I mean, kayla used to come to church when she was little, like her, and my son used to come with my parents, so she knows.
• 39:07
  Speaker 3: But it is a hard topic.
• 39:09
  Speaker 3: I'm not going to lie.
• 39:10
  Speaker 3: I have a hard time with it when ministers come through and talk about healings happening.
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: And they say God's going to heal cancer.
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: They do.
• 39:23
  Speaker 3: I can't sit here and tell you that that does not bother me.
• 39:26
  Speaker 3: It 100% bothers me.
• 39:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 39:29
  Speaker 3: But I know that he can.
• 39:33
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 39:34
  Speaker 3: So it's a hard topic because I don't know why he didn't heal Everly.
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: I don't.
• 39:40
  Speaker 3: I don't even want to say I wish I knew.
• 39:42
  Speaker 3: I just don't know, I don't have.
• 39:43
  Speaker 3: I don't even want to say I wish I knew.
• 39:44
  Speaker 3: I just I don't know.
• 39:44
  Speaker 3: I don't have an answer for that.
• 39:45
  Speaker 3: But I know that the only way to see her again is to keep going on the path I'm going.
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: I don't know if the stories I'm about to tell you will help or if they just don't matter, because I think sometimes, with grief, we don't really care about other people's stories.
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: We just care about ours.
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: But there is a minister on YouTube that I've watched for a long time and when I was not coming back to our church regularly, I was still serving the Lord, but I wasn't ready to come back and I would watch him and he ministered to me a lot.
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: And I remember New Year's services.
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: I'd always watch church on New Year's and I always spent New Year's with the Lord.
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: It was very important to me and I didn't even know who this guy was, but on New Year's, I just happened to turn on everything that he said.
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: Man, it just hit me and I literally cried and prayed in my front room.
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: This was 2018.
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: Fast forward, I finally figured out who that guy was on that new year's service and, long story short, he had a son who had been in the LGBTQ lifestyle for years, and this this guy's a minister in Tennessee.
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: He is a prophetic guy and that's what was happening on New Year's that day, and he prayed and prayed for his son.
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: Anyways, God delivered his son out of that lifestyle and had a miraculous deliverance.
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: Son's grown man gets married, has a couple children, part in ministry in the church and, out of the clear blue, got sick.
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: And this is a pastor who believes in the miraculous, who believes God for miracles, who called those out and believed all that.
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: His son gets sick, he's in the hospital and he was at church one day while his son was in the hospital and he said God's going to raise him up.
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: God you know, like you guys, just so committed to believing that.
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: and his son died.
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: And I was thinking to myself how will he reconcile that?
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: Because it's so hard and I was, you know.
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: I watched for those things and I thought how is he going to reconcile this?
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: And I watched the funeral of his son because I cared and I've seen his ministry and I was wondering all that.
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: And so at the funeral he gets up and says you know, when God took my son home, I didn't understand and I was mad and he wasn't going to lose his faith.
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: But he had a lot of questions, as you guys do.
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: And he said a day before the funeral he got a call from a pastor that he didn't know very well and he said I just want to tell you the word of the Lord that he gave to me.
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: And this pastor proceeded to tell him that when his son was in the hospital, that God went to him and said you know, you don't have to come home now if you don't want, you can.
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: You can finish out your life and you're going to be saved and you know I'll heal you all the things, um, or you can come home with me.
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: And and this guy literally had a vision of a son saying I want to go with you.
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: And it immediately brought peace and it allowed this pastor to live with the reason God didn't heal him and we don't know what happened with Everly.
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: But I think there is so much what.
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: What I think about a lot when I have questions for god is you know if I can look up into the stars and the heavens and not know the names of those stars and not even know the other solar systems?
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: I can't presume to know what happens in the invisible realm.
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: that we can't see, but what I do know is that somewhere along our life's journey God gives us the answers to the questions that we have and whatever reason he's not answering Manuel's question right now, your question right now, I have to trust that that's part of the process.
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: But I believe that one day God will give you guys an answer.
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: But I thought that that I've held on to his story for such a long time because to encourage others, because God does know how to speak to us.
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: God does know how to tell us our reasons, his reasons rather.
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: And then Brother Mahaney when I had him on the podcast, his son died of an overdose and Brother Mahaney was a backslider and God miraculously delivered him and he prayed and his son's child also died, a childhood death, and so his son was grieving the loss of his I can't remember, I think it was his daughter.
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: So his son was grieving the loss of his daughter that died at such an early age and he fell into drugs and Brother Mahaney's son overdosed and died and Brother Mahaney, as a backslider and preaching, the gospel said that the Lord visited him and told him you're going to have to just leave them in my hands.
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: And that gave him peace, because I think the Lord said I'd have to watch the podcast again, but something along the lines of I'm a gracious father, you know, and so I feel like our hearts have to line up yeah and God, god knows, god knows the answers Manuel needs and God knows the answers Kayla and her fiancé needs and God knows the answers that you need and I believe those answers will come in time.
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: I've gotten answers, I told Pastor, you know, in the last two years I've gotten answers from 30 years ago, yeah, that everything has come full circle and God has given me answers to questions that I had when I was 15, that I had when I was 28.
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: And everything has come full circle and I believe that.
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: But Brother Pierce said to me one day you have to serve God with all your heart and he does not bargain.
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: But when you will serve him with all your heart, then he will blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: And I think that that is the wrestle that we all must walk through is, we've got to find God for ourselves, yeah, and we have to find a way to say, okay, god, I'm hurt, I'm angry, I don't understand, but there is no other hope but him.
• 47:22
  Speaker 3: There's not, and there really isn't, yeah, so.
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: And he him there's not, and there really isn't.
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so, and he is, he's good.
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: And I just say that, carrie, because it doesn't change anything for you guys, but I do know that if God does it for one, he'll do it for another, and somewhere, hopefully, that brings hope to know what really happened yeah that day and what god might have really been thinking, and you know, and you know the pain that she's no longer in yeah no, nobody, we'd always rather have them yes, well, and even for my mom that's that's how I feel too.
• 48:04
  Speaker 3: It's like my mom was so ready to be done.
• 48:07
  Speaker 3: You know her, her earthly body was tired and worn down and she, you know, you know it's just, it's a different thing with my mom and then with everly, but um, you know they're both in a better.
• 48:21
  Speaker 3: Well, people don't like it when you say they're in a better place, but truly they are yeah because they're in heaven, which is where we want to be, right?
• 48:31
  Speaker 3: so I I mean being in a better place.
• 48:33
  Speaker 3: You know, it's just, it's just a phrase, but obviously we would rather than be here, right with us, right, but, um you, we have eternal hope, knowing that they're.
• 48:45
  Speaker 3: They're in heaven waiting for us and there's peace in that they're absolutely for me, yes, yes, I can't speak for my family, but for me there is peace, and that's where I get, that's how I get through the days.
• 48:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah, to be honest, yeah, yeah, you know.
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, god knows your husband.
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: He made him.
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: He knows every thought, he knows every desire, he knows every ounce of pain and I believe God tailors our return perfectly for who we are, all of our anger, all of our need for justice, all our need for answers.
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: When I look back at my life and I imagine yours too I can see the hand of God giving me the things that I needed that would allow my heart to open just ever so slightly, to be willing to pray or to be willing to be open.
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: And you know, god knows him and God loves him, and I think God's going to give him all the things he needs, you know, for reconciliation, whatever that's going to look like.
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: You know he may not like that's going to look like, you know he may not like that or agree with that right now, but you know um we have.
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: We just have to believe in all of that, you know, and your family's very supportive of you returning to church.
• 50:19
  Speaker 3: Oh, yeah, you know, yeah, they're you know, it's not, it's not even an issue.
• 50:23
  Speaker 3: Um, you know, and we're all issue and we're all grieving differently, we're all kind of trying to just live, get through the days.
• 50:33
  Speaker 3: But for me, this is how I'm getting through the days.
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: Well, and I think another remarkable thing about your family is that it seems that you and your husband have had a loving relationship and you guys have had a bond.
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: Being in the world is not an easy thing.
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: Lots of people don't make it apart from God and you guys definitely have, it would seem, a strong relationship to endure both the life and the world.
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, You're coming back to church.
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: The loss of Everly, the loss of your mom there's something there that you guys have as a family and in a marriage that you know that's not by accident.
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I agree.
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, what do you think is important for people in going through grief Like and coming back to the like?
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: What are the questions you've had?
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: What are some of the things that you have gone through in both?
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: Coming back again after all the years you were gone?
• 51:50
  Speaker 3: um, in the midst of all of this, yeah, well, and cause I came back in the middle of all of it, literally.
• 51:55
  Speaker 3: So, um, I think it it's.
• 51:59
  Speaker 3: It was a different experience for me because I was, I think I was, I think I was ready.
• 52:06
  Speaker 3: First of all, um, I wish it hadn't happened like that, I wish I could have just come back, but, um, so there's a lot of, a lot of emotions, um, but having having my faith behind me, um, I mean, I honestly don't even know how I would be where I am right now if it wasn't for that, because when I'm having a rough day, I pray and it does tend to pull me out of it.
• 52:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, really, god has been my strength.
• 52:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah, he has.
• 52:50
  Speaker 3: I mean when, when, literally when I'm having rough days, I just pray, I start praying and it it helps.
• 52:56
  Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: What, um, what do you think?
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: What would you want to say to people out there going through grief and the questions that you have about God and the questions your husband has about God and God?
• 53:18
  Speaker 3: I mean, I don't know, because everybody is everybody's so different and grieving is different.
• 53:23
  Speaker 3: Grieving looks different for everybody.
• 53:25
  Speaker 3: But trust me, I have lots of questions and I've.
• 53:30
  Speaker 3: You know, I I personally, I guess just came to realize that I may never have answers to them.
• 53:36
  Speaker 3: But I choose to keep my faith because it's where I get my strength.
• 53:41
  Speaker 3: But I don't have answers.
• 53:44
  Speaker 3: I don't even know what to tell people, because I'm struggling.
• 53:48
  Speaker 3: You're still in the middle of it pretty much.
• 53:52
  Speaker 3: And even in a year from now, I probably won't be able to help someone else that's grieving because you have to go through it.
• 54:00
  Speaker 3: I mean, my life is never, ever, ever, ever going to be the same, ever, right, never.
• 54:06
  Speaker 3: So I, I and I don't I don't know how many, I don't even know how I'm going to get through another year like this.
• 54:12
  Speaker 3: I don't want to, yeah, but, um, we do, right.
• 54:16
  Speaker 3: We get up in the morning, we go through our throughout the day, we go to bed at night.
• 54:22
  Speaker 3: I mean, it's just, it's an endless cycle of this yeah, and losing two at the same time.
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: I mean on the one hand.
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: You know, it's probably hard to focus on both of them at the same time and and then, on the other hand, at least it's not like five years apart to where you have to go through it all over again you know.
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: So I want to read really quick the stages of grief, denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance.
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: And they have since added a sixth which is making meaning of loss after acceptance.
• 55:04
  Speaker 2: Do you feel like you have gone circularly through those stages, or you go through all of the stages together at the same time, or do you have you found any?
• 55:18
  Speaker 3: The stages go very quickly um, the stages go very quickly and sometimes I, I think that they, um, it's like you feel one, one way and then you know, two minutes later you feel another way and then two minutes later you feel like it's back and forth.
• 55:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah there's never like a full day where I'm like, okay, I'm fine ever yeah, never and then there's never like a full day where I'm like horribly depressed.
• 55:44
  Speaker 3: It's constant changing of emotions, yeah, throughout the day.
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: It's exhausting, yes, throughout the day.
• 55:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and then you guys just had a new grandbaby, yeah, so you want to talk about Rowan?
• 55:59
  Speaker 3: Yeah, he's amazing.
• 56:00
  Speaker 3: Um, he looks just like his sister, um, but again, like having.
• 56:06
  Speaker 3: When people would ask me if I was excited, I, I was excited, but it's bittersweet, right, because having Rowan does not replace not having Everly, right, and she's not here to be able to enjoy having a little brother, and then my mom's not here to meet Rowan and and I'm not trying to be negative, but that's truly how I think that I can speak for my whole family Say like it's, it's constantly in our minds, like, well, I wish they were here, I wish Everly was here.
• 56:36
  Speaker 3: She would love this.
• 56:37
  Speaker 3: You know and you know, and, but it's amazing Again, it's.
• 56:41
  Speaker 2: It's like it is bittersweet, it's a good word, absolutely.
• 56:44
  Speaker 3: And there's no other word I can figure out to use that that makes sense other than bittersweet, because it's amazing and we're so happy.
• 56:53
  Speaker 3: But then you, when, when you're grieving, you're happy, you can be happy and sad all at once too, like it's just, you know, but when I'm holding rowan I'm constantly thinking about everly.
• 57:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know what are you thinking when you're thinking about her?
• 57:07
  Speaker 3: well, I used to hold her when she, you know, when she was little, and how, like, if she was here she'd probably want to sit right next to me, and you know, I mean it.
• 57:15
  Speaker 3: It's just what, if I guess how would she be if she was here, and you know, would she be so excited and what would she call him and what you know, I don't just everything, all the thoughts, and it's sad because she, she wasn't, she's not here.
• 57:31
  Speaker 3: She doesn't get to experience that with us.
• 57:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so how is Kayla and her fiance Is it Steve?
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: They're married, actually, they're married.
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, what?
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: And her fiance is it Steve?
• 57:40
  Speaker 3: They're married.
• 57:40
  Speaker 3: Actually, they're married, yeah.
• 57:42
  Speaker 2: What is his name again?
• 57:42
  Speaker 2: Kenneth, kenneth?
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: I keep wanting to say Steven, and I know that that's not right.
• 57:47
  Speaker 3: I mean, they're getting by, you know.
• 57:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 57:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's a lot of work taking care of a baby, so I think that does help in their healing process.
• 57:56
  Speaker 3: Because Kayla is very busy, she's exhausted.
• 58:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 58:01
  Speaker 3: So having the baby does help, yeah, but you know it makes her miss Everly, yeah, just as much yeah for sure and for anybody watching.
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: I mean, some of you guys might be cringing at the questions I'm asking or think that some of it is insensitive.
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: I'm definitely not trying to do that.
• 58:22
  Speaker 2: Carrie and I talked before this and she definitely is open to questions and being able to talk about this, so she is of the perspective if your pain can help someone else, you're willing to do that and so definitely not wanting at all to be insensitive, but it's just so.
• 58:48
  Speaker 2: I think grief is one of those emotions that there really are no answers to.
• 58:55
  Speaker 2: There is nothing that's going to make it better.
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: No new car, no new house, no new baby.
• 59:02
  Speaker 3: Nothing is going to fix it and nothing anyone says to me is going to help it better.
• 59:03
  Speaker 3: No new car, no new house, no new baby.
• 59:03
  Speaker 3: Nothing is going to fix it and nothing anyone says to me is going to help me.
• 59:06
  Speaker 3: I mean, intentions are good and I appreciate people saying they're praying.
• 59:10
  Speaker 3: That's one of the things I like to hear the most, because I need prayers constantly.
• 59:16
  Speaker 3: So does my family, whether they realize it or not, but there's nothing anyone can say to me that's going to even help my grief.
• 59:24
  Speaker 2: So right, you know, it's something you just have to endure, and it runs a course until I die.
• 59:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like truthfully, I mean, I will never not be grieving, yeah I know, I think we learn to carry it differently um in time and we learn to hold it different, and I think that there can be fondness in the memory and sadness at the same time.
• 59:54
  Speaker 2: But I think bittersweet describes it so well because, you know, for people that have never been in a bittersweet moment, it's very difficult to explain that emotion.
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 2: But when you've lived something that is bittersweet, it is that at the exact yeah, there's no other way to describe it.
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah you're grateful, yeah, and there is joy there, but you're also holding space for sorrow and yeah.
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and there's never going to be a time where I'm not.
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 3: You know that I I'm not wishing they were here you know, Everly and my mom, which you know, losing my mom, that's that's.
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 3: That's what's supposed to happen, you know, you're supposed to, you know at supposed to happen, you know you're supposed to.
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 2: You know, at some point you're going to lose your parents because they're older than you, and that's the circle of life and all that.
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 2: But it doesn't make it easier.
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and do you have?
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 2: You know, I still have my parents and but but you had some scary things happen.
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 3: I've had some really really scary things.
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 2: Um, I just made an appointment with my therapist cause I, you know, I I compartmentalize and I go into.
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 2: You know Renee Brown calls it the.
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 2: I forget what she uses, but she just takes over and takes control and does all the things.
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 2: And that's exactly me and I need help just learning to be at ease and enjoy them while they're here.
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: And that's.
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 2: You know, I think Lord, I don't ever.
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 2: I go to bed at night.
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 2: Sometimes I just cry and I think I don't want to have any regrets.
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 2: You know, I want to spend as much time and I want them to know how much they're loved.
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: And I feel like I fell at that.
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 2: And my parents live with me now now, but you know, even in the seeing them every day, I always wrestle between how much time I could be spending with them and how much time I also have to devote to work and well, yeah you know it's it's very hard, it's hard to juggle, it is, I mean.
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 3: And one thing I do recall saying when we lost Everly, I think I was talking to Kayla actually and I was like you.
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 3: And one thing I do recall saying when we lost everly, I think I was talking to kayla actually and I was like you know, one thing I can say is zero regrets.
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 3: I spent so much time with her.
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 3: She knew she was loved her.
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 3: She didn't know that her life was short.
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 3: Right, she loved every second of it other than being sick and being in the hospital, like even in the hospital, not feeling good.
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah, even in the hospital, that girl made the best of every situation which made it easier on us.
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because she didn't have fear.
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 2: No, yeah, that would be hard.
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 3: And you know.
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 3: But I don't regret anything because I spent every second that I could with her, and that's one thing that I have to say.
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 3: That I am lucky in that sense is I don't have any regrets.
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 3: And with your mom like.
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 3: What advice do you have?
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 2: I mean it's tough to lose your mom Now that she's not here.
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 3: I mean, I know my dad's probably gonna watch this, so no offense, dad, but when you lose your mom, that's my mom, that's my person, she's the one I'd call.
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 3: She was my cheerleader.
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so that was hard.
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 2: What would you?
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 3: It doesn't get easier, like I said, I mean it doesn't get easier.
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 2: Is there anything you would do different had you known?
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 3: I probably would have spent more time with her.
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah are there, do you find I?
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 2: This is what I think about when I'm laying in bed at night is what questions do I want to ask them, which I haven't, you know.
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: Um, but what?
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 2: What questions am I?
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 2: Am I going to want to ask them when they're not here?
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 3: Cause you know you're going to lose them.
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 3: I mean that that's, that's.
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 3: That's the thing.
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 3: I mean, unfortunately, that that is what happens.
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 3: You will lose your parents.
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 3: I mean normally cycle of life.
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you, you know you outlive them.
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 3: That that's, that's how it's supposed to be, um, but I can tell you right now, even if you spend every day with them, you're gonna feel like you didn't spend enough time with them yeah.
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 3: I mean, that's just the reality.
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 2: I feel that.
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 2: I feel that now they live with you.
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 3: So I mean, you're never gonna feel like you did enough, you're never gonna feel like you spent enough time with them.
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 3: I mean, like a few days before we lost my mom, kayla and I actually had gone over to their house and we were just hanging out and talking to my mom.
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 3: I'm so thankful that we did that now, because we we had no idea.
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 3: Like I said, yes, she was, you know, sick and her body was tired, but we, we didn't had no idea we were going to lose her.
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 3: And I'm glad I did that, because I have that now, that memory.
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 3: Um, you know, that last, that last good memory with her, that's really my last good memory with her before she passed.
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 3: God knew.
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't really know what else to say this is a tough topic.
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 3: It really is, but you know.
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 2: And you know, carrie, there's those of of us um me.
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 2: I can't speak for everyone else at church, but um, it's a blessing to see you there and I look for you when you're not there and I know I get text messages when I'm not there.
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I.
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 2: I don't text, but I notice and I know you're home with the baby now that that he has arrived, um, but I I just can't say enough how encouraging it is, you know, just to look across the church and to see you there and um, knowing all the things that you guys have been through, and and and, um, I know that in the end, I don't know how, I do not know how, um, but I I do know someone has said if, if it's not good, if if it's not good, then God's not done.
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I really, I really believe that it's not, that we're not going to struggle, but I do think we're going to come into a time of rejoicing, and it is going to be bittersweet I live with bittersweet a lot but it does also keep you at such a place of thankfulness, also keep you at such a place of thankfulness.
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 2: You know to where you just you just become really grateful for all the little things, and I think that also is a gift.
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah, well, and a big thing right now is that I'm just so thankful for the promise that we have for eternal life after this, because this, this truly is just temporary.
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah, this is not our forever home.
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and I think the longer we live, the more we're ready to absolutely yeah because life is life is not easy and god is really not no, he's faithful, he strengthens us, he blesses us, um.
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 2: But I think there is that space where there's nothing like being in the presence of God, and to just be there always would be so wonderful.
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 2: But I really appreciate you coming on and talking about this very difficult, hard subject and I hope that it helps somebody out there.
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 2: And I hope that it helps somebody out there.
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 2: I know that I personally see people often who is going through loss.
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and I wish I had answers for them, but I don't.
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 3: I mean, we're all just struggling.
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 3: So I mean, and everybody's grief is different, but you know, for me, like I said, God is my strength, so that's how I get through it.
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah for me.
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 2: Like I said, god is my strength, so that's how I get through it.
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but I think there isn't an answer, and just learning to be and sharing where you're at is important, just being able to say where you're at and it and it's still a process and it's going to be.
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 2: I think that can be comforting in and of itself, that there really is nothing no one can do nothing anyone can say there is not one thing in this world that is going to make it better.
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 2: It is just um something that you learn.
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 2: You learn to live with, you learn to adapt with you learn to find um joy and gratitude and um yeah, and and I think you know we talk about therapy a lot setting proper expectations, because whatever I'm expecting I can be disappointed by, and so, if for no other reason hopefully this serves as a tool to not have any expectations for someone going through grief is take all your expectations off the table.
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 2: There isn't going to be a magical day that you're going to feel better.
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 3: No you know, and that people who, who have never experienced grief, sometimes don't get that.
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 3: And lucky for them that they don't get that.
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 3: You know they think at some point you'll be, you'll be okay.
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 3: No, we'll never be okay.
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we will'll be okay.
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 3: No, we'll never be okay.
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 3: We will never be okay.
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 2: I have a client who has said when is this going to get better?
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 2: When am I going to stop crying?
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 2: I hate to be the one that says you learn to be grateful for the good days and you can have joy while grieving, but the problem with grief is it never leaves you, ever.
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 3: It never leaves you.
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 3: It just sometimes is in the back rather than in the front, but sometimes it's in the front and I mean it never leaves, though it's always there, right In some form you know, and, and, yeah, holding it at the same time as you live, you know it.
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 2: it does become manageable as a very insensitive description, but it's true.
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 3: I mean you learn to live with it, you learn how to get through the days, but I mean it's always there, it never leaves.
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, it never leaves, yeah, yeah.
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 2: And so for the audience, you know we're talking about grief.
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 2: As a therapist, I have really began to look at grief being one of the major emotions that we do not usually deal with or address, because, if you know, we think about grief definitely with, uh, someone that we love passing away.
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 2: But grief also exists in divorce, and it could also exist, um, when you lose your best friend, or when you, you know um leave home, or in all the little life experiences.
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 2: Grief is such a huge emotion because it leaves that scar and that scar is always there.
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 3: It's always there.
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's always there and so, um, yeah, I, I'm ending this.
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 2: I know this is like a really weird episode and you know it's not going to end on a hallelujah and you know it's not going to end on a hallelujah.
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 3: It's not going to end on a good note.
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 2: But you know, I do think God carries us through and God is with us in it, and he doesn't always take everything from us.
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 2: And so, if for no other reason, I hope that this communicated that he is there.
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 2: He is there in the stillness, he is there in the struggle, and that we don't always know what it's going to look like or what the reasons are, but we have to have faith, um but we have to have faith, even small as a mustard seed, even if we can just say God, you're real.
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 2: That is the extent of the faith that I can have today.
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 2: That's still faith.
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 2: And I think he could work with that.
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 2: You know, you may not be able to reconcile whether or not he's good.
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 2: You may not be able to reconcile whether or not he's up there punishing you.
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 2: You know, but if you can reconcile God, I know you're real and I, you know, we'll just start there.
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 2: It's a start and so, anyways, I hope this helps somebody.
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 2: I don't know if it did, but I'm really grateful that Carrie was able to come in and talk about what she's been through and what her family is still going through.
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 2: And for anyone out there that prays hopefully everybody watching prays if you could just pray for her and her family.
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 2: You know we get weary and we need strength and I've seen in my own life God just give me strength to make it through the day, and not everybody is there in their walk.
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 2: You know, somewhere along the line they will be.
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 2: But you know, if you could just pray for the weary, the saints that are just weary, the people that suffer loss, and Carrie and her family particularly.
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 2: That would be wonderful, Because God is listening, he does hear, and so any final parting words Not really Okay.
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 2: Thanks for being here.
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 2: Thanks for having me.
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 2: And thanks for watching everybody Bye.
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 1: If you have a story of redemption or have worn the label of a backslider, we would love to hear from you.
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 1: If you'd like to support our ministry, your donation will be tax deductible.
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 1: Visit our website at theredeemedbacksliderorg.
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 1: We hope you will tune in for our next episode.