Latest / Fulfilled with Rebecca Sheehan / The Faith the World Can’t Silence: Stories from The Voice of the Martyrs | Ep. 13

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The Faith the World Can’t Silence: Stories from The Voice of the Martyrs | Ep. 13 · Fulfilled with Rebecca Sheehan

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you
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SPEAKER_00: Hey everybody, welcome to Fulfilled.
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SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Rebecca Sheehan.
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Today's topic is one that,
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until recently,
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probably felt distant for a lot of us.
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SPEAKER_00: That all changed on September 10th when Charlie Kirk,
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SPEAKER_00: a passionate defender of the Christian faith and conservative values,
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was assassinated during one of his trademark campus events
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where he boldly but
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SPEAKER_00: gently shared the gospel.
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SPEAKER_00: Ever since his death,
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SPEAKER_00: martyrdom has been on people's lips and in our hearts,
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SPEAKER_00: whereas before,
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SPEAKER_00: at least for me if I'm being honest,
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SPEAKER_00: the word mostly brought to mind old medieval paintings of saints.
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SPEAKER_00: But martyrdom is not a thing of the past.
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SPEAKER_00: Evil still tries to stamp out the gospel wherever it shines,
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SPEAKER_00: and every year thousands of Christians die unwavering in their faith.
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SPEAKER_00: With this reality now top of mind,
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SPEAKER_00: it's a powerful moment to hear their stories,
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SPEAKER_00: pray for the persecuted,
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SPEAKER_00: and even let their courage draw our own hearts closer to God.
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SPEAKER_00: As Danish theologian and philosopher Soren Kierkegaard said,
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SPEAKER_00: the tyrant dies and his rule is over,
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SPEAKER_00: the martyr dies and his rule begins.
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SPEAKER_00: To unpack all of this is Todd Nettleton with Voice of the Martyrs,
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a non-profit that supports persecuted Christians around the
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world with prayer,
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SPEAKER_00: advocacy,
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SPEAKER_00: and practical help.
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SPEAKER_00: Todd is an author,
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SPEAKER_00: speaker,
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SPEAKER_00: and host of Voice of the Martyrs Radio,
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where he shares powerful stories of believers who risk it all
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for their faith.
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SPEAKER_00: Todd, so glad to have you on the show today.
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SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much.
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SPEAKER_01: It's good to be with you.
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Could you start by explaining Voice of the Martyrs for anyone
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who's not familiar,
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SPEAKER_00: what it is,
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SPEAKER_00: and,
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SPEAKER_00: of course,
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SPEAKER_00: the powerful story of how it began?
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Voice of the Martyrs is a ministry to persecuted Christians.
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So we exist to serve Christians in more than 70 countries where
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following Jesus
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SPEAKER_01: comes with a cost.
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SPEAKER_01: It is a regular part of following Jesus to have to pay some price,
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SPEAKER_01: and sometimes that's you're kicked out of your family,
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SPEAKER_01: sometimes it's you lose your job,
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SPEAKER_01: sometimes it is you are killed.
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SPEAKER_01: You lay down your life for the cause of Christ.
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SPEAKER_01: And so Voice of the Martyrs seeks to serve Christians who are facing that
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SPEAKER_01: really to come alongside them and say, hey, what do you need?
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SPEAKER_01: How can we help you?
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SPEAKER_01: And then here in the U.S.,
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SPEAKER_01: we tell their stories so that the body of Christ can be connected,
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so that we can be in fellowship with our brothers and sisters
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around the world,
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SPEAKER_01: so that we can support them and help them and pray for them.
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SPEAKER_01: but also so we can be encouraged, we can be challenged by their stories.
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SPEAKER_01: And when you hear the story of someone who was willing to die for Christ,
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SPEAKER_01: suddenly it seems like a lot of what we deal with is inconvenience,
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SPEAKER_01: not risk,
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SPEAKER_01: but inconvenience.
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And the founding of The Voice of the Martyrs was by persecuted
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Christians.
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SPEAKER_01: Our founders, Pastor Richard Wurmbrand, his wife Sabina,
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SPEAKER_01: Richard spent 14 years in prison in communist Romania.
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SPEAKER_01: Sabina spent three years in prison herself.
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And so when they came to the West,
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they actually were ransomed out of Romania.
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It's an interesting story that the going rate for a political
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prisoner was $1,500.
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SPEAKER_01: The price to ransom Richard was $10,000,
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SPEAKER_01: so he was considered a very high-value prisoner,
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SPEAKER_01: and Christians in the West paid that $10,000 to the Communist government.
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Richard was ransomed out of the country,
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and before he left,
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the secret police took him aside.
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SPEAKER_01: They said, Pastor Wurmbrand, you're going to the West.
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SPEAKER_01: You can talk about the Bible all you want.
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SPEAKER_01: You can talk about God all you want, but don't talk about us.
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SPEAKER_01: Don't talk about what we did to you.
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SPEAKER_01: Richard came to the West and did exactly what they told him not to do.
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SPEAKER_01: He began to share the stories of being in prison,
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SPEAKER_01: the stories of being beaten,
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SPEAKER_01: and not just saying,
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SPEAKER_01: hey,
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SPEAKER_01: I went through this,
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SPEAKER_01: but saying,
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SPEAKER_01: hey,
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SPEAKER_01: there are pastors still in those prisons.
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SPEAKER_01: there are still Christians who are suffering behind the Iron Curtain.
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SPEAKER_01: And,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
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SPEAKER_01: Christians like you and I,
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SPEAKER_01: we hear that and we say,
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SPEAKER_01: okay,
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SPEAKER_01: well,
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SPEAKER_01: how do we help those people?
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SPEAKER_01: How do we connect with them?
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SPEAKER_01: That is really why the Voice of the Martyrs was founded,
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was to be a bridge between the Church in hostile areas and
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restricted nations and
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SPEAKER_01: the Church in the free world like the United States.
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So how I heard of Voice of the Martyrs was actually I was
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sitting in a doctor's
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SPEAKER_00: office and picked up one of your magazines.
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And,
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oh,
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it was this incredible story about a woman in Vietnam who lost
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her husband.
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I think he was bludgeoned to death and then lost her son,
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was forced to live in a pig pen.
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I think I was tearing up and people must have looked at me like
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I was crazy.
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SPEAKER_00: But when I researched more and I learned about the warm brands,
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SPEAKER_00: There's some crazy parallels to my own story because they grew up Jewish,
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SPEAKER_00: as did I,
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SPEAKER_00: and my grandparents are from Romania also.
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SPEAKER_00: Wow.
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SPEAKER_00: And were Holocaust survivors.
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SPEAKER_00: So they were persecuted during World War II as well.
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SPEAKER_00: But when it comes to the Wurmbrands, how did they become imprisoned?
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And why did they want to keep him there so badly to charge
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$10,000 for his ransom
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SPEAKER_00: instead of the going rate of $1,500?
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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As you say,
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Richard and Sabino both were from Jewish backgrounds,
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Jewish families.
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By the time they found Christ,
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though,
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they had sort of left behind Judaism.
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SPEAKER_01: They were seekers of pleasure.
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SPEAKER_01: They were seekers of the good life, and we're going to be rich.
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SPEAKER_01: We're going to have an easy life.
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SPEAKER_01: And Richard got tuberculosis.
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SPEAKER_01: He was sent away to the mountains.
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SPEAKER_01: Supposedly,
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SPEAKER_01: the clean mountain air would help relieve the pressure in his lungs,
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SPEAKER_01: and he ended up spending months there.
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SPEAKER_01: While he was there,
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SPEAKER_01: he met a man named Christian Wolfkus,
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who had been praying for years that God would allow him to
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reach one Jew for
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SPEAKER_01: Christ.
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That was kind of his life's mission,
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and he prayed every day,
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and his prayer was,
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Lord—
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SPEAKER_01: You've given me this passion.
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SPEAKER_01: Before I die, I want to reach one Jew for you.
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SPEAKER_01: But,
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SPEAKER_01: Lord,
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SPEAKER_01: there aren't any Jews in my village,
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SPEAKER_01: and I'm too old to travel,
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SPEAKER_01: so you're going to have to bring a Jew to me.
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SPEAKER_01: And lo and behold,
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SPEAKER_01: Richard Wurmbrand goes to the mountains to recover from tuberculosis,
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SPEAKER_01: and he's in the village where Christian Wufkus is,
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SPEAKER_01: and they encounter each other.
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SPEAKER_01: Christian Wufkus gives him a Bible,
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SPEAKER_01: sort of plants that seed,
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SPEAKER_01: and ultimately Richard comes to faith in Christ—
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SPEAKER_01: He then became a pastor.
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SPEAKER_01: He was a pastor in the Lutheran Church.
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SPEAKER_01: He became involved in the National Association of Evangelicals,
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SPEAKER_01: so he was not just a leader of one church,
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SPEAKER_01: he was a leader of leaders,
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SPEAKER_01: and that's why he was considered such an important target.
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SPEAKER_01: The way he got sort of in the crosshairs of the communists,
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SPEAKER_01: after the communists' takeover of Romania,
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SPEAKER_01: they held something called the Congress of the Cults,
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and they invited all of the religious leaders from across the
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country to come
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SPEAKER_01: together.
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SPEAKER_01: And the honorary chairman of this gathering was Joseph Stalin.
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SPEAKER_01: So they gathered all these religious leaders,
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SPEAKER_01: and they made a bunch of speeches about how,
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SPEAKER_01: you know—
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SPEAKER_01: We communists and you Christians, we can get along.
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And somebody on the platform said,
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you know,
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actually,
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Jesus was the first communist.
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SPEAKER_01: His teachings really support communism.
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And they had different religious leaders that stood up and
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said,
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yes,
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we can get along.
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SPEAKER_01: Yes, we can serve the communists.
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SPEAKER_01: Richard and Sabina were sitting there listening to this,
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SPEAKER_01: their hearts sinking,
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SPEAKER_01: and Sabina actually looked at Richard and said,
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SPEAKER_01: you need to go up there and wipe this shame from the face of Christ.
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And Richard looked at her and said,
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if I do that,
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you will no longer have a husband.
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SPEAKER_01: And Sabina shot back, I do not wish to have a coward for a husband.
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SPEAKER_01: And that really put steel in Richard's spine.
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SPEAKER_01: He stood up and went to the front,
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SPEAKER_01: and they gave him the microphone,
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SPEAKER_01: and he said,
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SPEAKER_01: brothers and sisters,
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SPEAKER_01: our first loyalty is not to any party.
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SPEAKER_01: Our first loyalty has to be to Jesus Christ.
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SPEAKER_01: They cut the power to the microphone.
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SPEAKER_01: Richard had to literally go out the back door and get away.
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But from that day forward,
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it was only a matter of time until he was going to be arrested.
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SPEAKER_01: He was going to pay for his audacity to stand up and say,
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SPEAKER_01: no,
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we have to be loyal to Christ first before we're loyal to the
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government or the
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SPEAKER_01: party or anything else.
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SPEAKER_01: And ultimately,
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SPEAKER_01: he spent 14 years in prison,
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SPEAKER_01: including three years in solitary confinement,
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SPEAKER_01: literally three years without seeing another person.
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The guards wore pads on their shoes so you couldn't hear them
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walking around outside.
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SPEAKER_01: Several years ago, I had the chance to go to Romania.
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We filmed a small group curriculum based on the lives of
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Richard and Sabina,
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SPEAKER_01: and we went to the prison.
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SPEAKER_01: And I went in one of those solitary confinement cells,
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SPEAKER_01: and the producer of our videos shut the door.
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And I have to say,
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it took about 20 seconds,
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and I'm like,
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okay,
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open the door.
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SPEAKER_01: Like, let me out of here.
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SPEAKER_01: I don't want to be in here.
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And the thought of Richard being there for three years is
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really mind-blowing.
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SPEAKER_01: And he writes movingly about...
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SPEAKER_01: how things slipped away and fell away.
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SPEAKER_01: One of the things he did early on,
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SPEAKER_01: he recited the Lord's Prayer faithfully every day,
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SPEAKER_01: and they were feeding him drugs to numb his mind.
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SPEAKER_01: He said by the end,
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SPEAKER_01: he had lost most of the Lord's Prayer,
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SPEAKER_01: but he held on to Our Father,
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SPEAKER_01: and he would just repeat,
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SPEAKER_01: My father, my father.
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SPEAKER_01: And that kept his faith alive,
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and I think it helped him hang on to his sanity during those
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long years of torture
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SPEAKER_01: and suffering and isolation.
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I don't think there's any way a human being could hang on to
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their sanity alone
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SPEAKER_00: without God's help.
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Yeah,
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it is mind-blowing to think about the suffering that they went
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through.
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SPEAKER_00: What a powerful story.
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SPEAKER_00: And people who aren't Christians don't think that it's difficult at all.
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They just think,
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oh,
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Christianity is,
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at least in the West,
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sort of the default religion.
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SPEAKER_00: And especially compared to being Jewish at the time with Nazi Germany and
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SPEAKER_00: everything,
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SPEAKER_00: oh,
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SPEAKER_00: being Christian is the easy way out.
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SPEAKER_00: I love how this story shows that it's not.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: No, it is definitely not.
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SPEAKER_01: And that's true today in more than 70 countries around the world.
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SPEAKER_01: That's not just a story from the 1940s.
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SPEAKER_01: That's a story from 2025.
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SPEAKER_00: So let's talk about Voice of the Martyrs today now.
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SPEAKER_00: First, how did you get involved with it?
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And then I would love to hear some stories that maybe you've
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experienced out in the field.
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SPEAKER_00: I know you wrote a very impactful book on this and interview passionate,
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SPEAKER_00: amazing people every day.
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SPEAKER_00: So...
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I always tell people my involvement at VOM goes back to when I
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was 12 years old and
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SPEAKER_01: my family packed up and moved to Papua New Guinea.
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SPEAKER_01: So I grew up in Southern California and at 12 years old,
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SPEAKER_01: my parents became missionaries and we moved to Papua New Guinea.
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SPEAKER_01: And we had a sort of a family conference before that.
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SPEAKER_01: We ran around the circle and I was the no vote.
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SPEAKER_01: It was three to one.
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SPEAKER_01: And I was like, nope, I don't want to move to Papua New Guinea.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm getting ready to go into junior high.
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SPEAKER_01: I can finally do sports in school.
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SPEAKER_01: This is just not a good time.
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SPEAKER_00: You're like Jonah not wanting to go to Nineveh.
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SPEAKER_01: I was like, you know, that's great.
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SPEAKER_01: But no, I don't want to go.
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SPEAKER_01: Ultimately, and I, you know, certainly I agree with this.
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SPEAKER_01: Like, if the Lord's calling us, we got to go.
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SPEAKER_01: And so we packed up and moved to Papua New Guinea.
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SPEAKER_01: And that really started me on the road of...
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SPEAKER_01: what I do today.
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SPEAKER_01: So I think it started when I was 12 years old.
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SPEAKER_01: By the time I got hired, I was 28 years old.
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Voice of the Martyrs was much,
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much smaller at that point,
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building a communications department.
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SPEAKER_01: And they took me out to dinner and said,
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SPEAKER_01: hey,
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SPEAKER_01: we need somebody who can write press releases and tell stories.
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And I said,
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boy,
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I love telling stories and I can certainly write a press
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release.
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SPEAKER_01: And so that really was the entry point.
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SPEAKER_01: And now
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SPEAKER_01: 27 years later, I'm still here.
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And when we launched the radio program in 2014,
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I had the opportunity to host that.
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And it has been such a blessing to encounter so many heroes of
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the faith and to be
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SPEAKER_01: able to sit down and ask them questions.
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And I think of it as like I'm interviewing Paul and Silas after
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they came out of
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SPEAKER_01: the jail in Philippi.
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SPEAKER_01: Like I'm asking, so what was it like in the cell?
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SPEAKER_01: And what song were you singing?
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SPEAKER_01: And what was going on in your mind?
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SPEAKER_01: What was going on in your heart?
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SPEAKER_01: I get to have those kind of conversations,
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SPEAKER_01: and it is an incredible divine privilege to be able to do that.
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Is there one story that stands out in particular to you that
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really moved you the most?
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SPEAKER_01: There are many, but there's a couple that come to mind.
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SPEAKER_01: So one is a lady, and I write about her in my book.
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SPEAKER_01: So I went to China and they said,
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SPEAKER_01: hey,
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SPEAKER_01: we have the chance to interview this lady named Sister Tong.
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She had spent six months in prison for hosting a house church
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meeting in her home.
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And at that time,
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the Chinese government was raiding house church meetings.
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SPEAKER_01: They would take pictures of everyone.
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SPEAKER_01: They would write down all your ID documents.
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SPEAKER_01: But the person who was the host, they went to jail.
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SPEAKER_01: And she was released like three weeks before we were there.
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SPEAKER_01: And so we got to sit down and I got to interview her.
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SPEAKER_01: And so I know I'm going to come back to America.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm going to write this story for the free Voice of the Martyrs magazine.
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So if you're going to tell a story,
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the first thing you need is the setting.
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SPEAKER_01: You know, it was a dark and stormy night.
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SPEAKER_01: And so I say, Sister Tong, you know, tell me about the prison.
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SPEAKER_01: And what I'm thinking is, like, how hard was the bed?
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SPEAKER_01: How big were the rats?
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SPEAKER_01: How terrible was the food?
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Let's paint a picture of how miserable your life has been
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during the six months
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SPEAKER_01: that you were in prison.
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SPEAKER_01: And so the translator translates my question,
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and Sister Tong gets what I can only describe as a heavenly
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smile on her face.
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She says something in Chinese,
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and the translator says,
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oh,
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yes,
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that was a wonderful time.
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SPEAKER_01: And I'm very confused at this point.
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SPEAKER_01: Like I looked at the,
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SPEAKER_01: I'm like,
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SPEAKER_01: are you sure that you asked the,
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SPEAKER_01: like I was asking about the prison,
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SPEAKER_01: are you sure she understood that?
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SPEAKER_01: And he's like, oh yeah, she understood that.
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SPEAKER_01: And I'm like,
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SPEAKER_01: okay,
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SPEAKER_01: well,
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you better explain yourself because nobody would call six
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months at a Chinese
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SPEAKER_01: prison a wonderful time.
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SPEAKER_01: And so I said, okay, Sister Tong, why was it a wonderful time?
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SPEAKER_01: And she said, you know, Jesus was so close to me in that prison cell
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SPEAKER_01: I got to experience his presence in a way that I never had before.
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SPEAKER_01: I never had experienced him that close when I was outside of prison.
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SPEAKER_01: And she said, you know what else?
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SPEAKER_01: There were some ladies in my cell,
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SPEAKER_01: and when I got there,
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SPEAKER_01: they didn't know Jesus,
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SPEAKER_01: but they know him now.
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And I got to be the one to share Christ with them and see them
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accept Christ.
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SPEAKER_01: So Jesus was with me, and he gave me a ministry to do.
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SPEAKER_01: So that was a wonderful time.
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SPEAKER_01: Like,
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how could it not be a wonderful time if I get to experience his
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presence and if he
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SPEAKER_01: is giving me a ministry to do?
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SPEAKER_01: And ever since that conversation, my mind has changed to,
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SPEAKER_01: in whatever circumstance I'm in,
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is it possible that this could be a wonderful time if Jesus is
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with me and if Jesus
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SPEAKER_01: gives me a ministry to do?
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SPEAKER_01: Is it possible a hospital room could be a wonderful time?
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SPEAKER_01: Is it possible the unemployment line could be a wonderful time?
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SPEAKER_01: Is it possible that my car breaks down and I'm in a tow truck,
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that that could be a wonderful time because God is with me and
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God gives me a
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SPEAKER_01: ministry to do?
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SPEAKER_01: So if we look at this situation through her eyes,
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SPEAKER_01: is it possible this could be a wonderful time?
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SPEAKER_01: And that's one example.
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There's another example that comes immediately to my mind of an
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Iranian Christian
15:36
SPEAKER_01: that I met out of a Muslim background.
15:39
SPEAKER_01: And I'm sitting down with him.
15:40
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to interview him.
15:42
SPEAKER_01: And he said, now, I want you to know I'm a really competitive person.
15:46
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, oh, you know, that's cool.
15:48
SPEAKER_01: And he's like, no, I am really a competitive person.
15:52
And he went on to say,
15:53
you know,
15:55
when I was a thief,
15:58
I wanted to be the best thief in my city.
16:02
I wanted to steal stuff that other people had tried to steal
16:06
and failed just to
16:07
SPEAKER_01: show that I was a better thief than they were.
16:10
SPEAKER_01: And he said,
16:11
SPEAKER_01: when I was a drug addict,
16:13
I wanted to do more drugs than anyone else because I was going
16:16
to be the best drug
16:17
SPEAKER_01: addict in my city.
16:20
SPEAKER_01: And he said,
16:20
SPEAKER_01: now that I'm a follower of Christ,
16:22
SPEAKER_01: I want to be the best evangelist that Jesus has ever had.
16:25
SPEAKER_01: I want to tell every single person that I meet.
16:29
SPEAKER_01: about Christ.
16:30
SPEAKER_01: So he started out the conversation that way,
16:32
SPEAKER_01: like,
16:33
SPEAKER_01: I'm so competitive,
16:34
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to be the best disciple that Jesus has ever had.
16:38
SPEAKER_01: But then he talked about how he lives that out, and he ended up in jail
16:45
As will happen in Iran when you're being the best disciple that
16:48
Jesus has ever had
16:49
SPEAKER_01: and you're evangelizing everywhere you go.
16:52
SPEAKER_01: But even in jail, God was with him.
16:55
SPEAKER_01: And so he was in jail for almost a month, eventually was released.
16:59
And when he sent in his report for his ministry that month to
17:04
his leadership,
17:05
SPEAKER_01: he didn't mention that he was in jail.
17:07
SPEAKER_01: He simply mentioned, I shared Christ with 100 people.
17:11
24 of them received Christ and accepted Him,
17:13
and I'm working with them to disciple them.
17:16
And it was only a couple weeks later that the leaders realized
17:19
he had been arrested.
17:20
SPEAKER_01: He was in jail when he shared Christ with 100 people.
17:23
But he had so many stories of God putting him in the right
17:28
place at the right time,
17:29
and
17:30
SPEAKER_01: And his attitude is,
17:31
SPEAKER_01: you know,
17:32
SPEAKER_01: if I meet someone,
17:33
I know the Holy Spirit has prepared them to hear the gospel
17:36
because I've made that
17:37
SPEAKER_01: commitment.
17:37
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to share Christ with every person I meet.
17:40
And so his expectation everywhere he goes and with anyone he
17:44
has a conversation
17:45
SPEAKER_01: with is,
17:46
this person is ready to hear the gospel because why else would
17:49
God have brought
17:50
SPEAKER_01: them across my path?
17:51
SPEAKER_01: Because I'm going to be the best evangelist Jesus has ever had.
17:54
SPEAKER_00: That's incredible.
17:56
SPEAKER_00: It just really makes me think of Christians here in America.
18:00
SPEAKER_00: We're just too comfortable, you know, too relaxed in our faith.
18:05
SPEAKER_00: I was up late last night.
18:05
I don't feel like going to church this Sunday compared to these
18:09
people in jail who
18:10
SPEAKER_00: are evangelizing and grateful to be there.
18:13
One of the challenges for us as American Christians is
18:18
typically the gospel that we
18:20
SPEAKER_01: heard was,
18:21
SPEAKER_01: come to Jesus and he's going to make your life better.
18:25
SPEAKER_01: Oftentimes it is literally financially or physically better.
18:28
SPEAKER_01: He's going to heal you from everything,
18:30
SPEAKER_01: every sickness,
18:31
SPEAKER_01: and he's going to make sure you're successful in your job.
18:33
SPEAKER_01: He's going to make sure that you're profitable.
18:36
So you need to come to Jesus because your life here on earth is
18:39
going to be better
18:40
SPEAKER_01: when you walk with Jesus.
18:41
The gospel message that our brothers and sisters in China or
18:45
Iran or Nigeria hear
18:47
SPEAKER_01: is,
18:47
SPEAKER_01: come to Jesus.
18:49
SPEAKER_01: Your life is going to get worse.
18:51
SPEAKER_01: It's going to be harder.
18:51
SPEAKER_01: There's going to be sacrifice.
18:53
SPEAKER_01: There's going to be pain.
18:54
SPEAKER_01: But come to Jesus.
18:55
SPEAKER_01: He will walk with you through that pain and through that sacrifice,
19:00
SPEAKER_01: and you have the promise of heaven.
19:01
SPEAKER_01: You have the promise of eternity with Him.
19:04
And so if you've heard the message that your life is going to
19:07
get better and then
19:08
SPEAKER_01: you have trouble,
19:09
SPEAKER_01: it's like,
19:09
SPEAKER_01: well,
19:09
SPEAKER_01: wait a minute,
19:10
SPEAKER_01: was this not true?
19:11
SPEAKER_01: Was Jesus, is he not paying attention to me?
19:13
SPEAKER_01: Did something go wrong?
19:16
SPEAKER_01: If you've heard the gospel message,
19:17
SPEAKER_01: your life is going to be harder,
19:19
SPEAKER_01: but Jesus will be with you,
19:21
SPEAKER_01: and then trouble comes,
19:22
SPEAKER_01: you think,
19:23
SPEAKER_01: oh,
19:23
SPEAKER_01: yeah,
19:23
SPEAKER_01: this is what they said was going to happen.
19:25
SPEAKER_01: But I know Jesus is with me.
19:26
And so part of our challenge as American Christians is to grab
19:31
a hold of the gospel
19:32
SPEAKER_01: that says,
19:33
SPEAKER_01: you will have sacrifice.
19:35
You know,
19:35
Jesus said,
19:35
the world hates me,
19:37
and if you follow me,
19:38
the world is going to hate you.
19:42
We don't hear that as part of our gospel presentation very
19:45
often in an American
19:47
SPEAKER_01: context of,
19:47
SPEAKER_01: hey,
19:48
SPEAKER_01: come to Jesus so the world will hate you.
19:50
Our brothers and sisters in places around the world,
19:53
they know the reality of that.
19:57
SPEAKER_00: The gospel can be so sugar-coated here.
19:59
I think it's because churches are afraid that people won't come
20:03
if they're
20:05
SPEAKER_00: To quote unquote fire and brimstone,
20:07
but it's such a shame that the gospel is being watered down and
20:11
that sin isn't
20:12
being talked about and all these things because you see in
20:14
these other countries
20:15
SPEAKER_00: that that is really kind of where the power comes from.
20:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it is a loss for us.
20:21
SPEAKER_01: And frankly,
20:22
it's one of the ministries of Voice of the Martyrs is to
20:24
connect brothers and
20:26
sisters in America with their spiritual family around the world
20:29
to understand that
20:30
SPEAKER_01: reality and to hear that side of following Jesus.
20:33
SPEAKER_01: There is sacrifice, but it is always worth it.
20:37
SPEAKER_01: Jesus is worthy, whatever the sacrifice may be.
20:42
Haven't you said before that the persecuted Christians pray for
20:45
us here in the West?
20:47
SPEAKER_01: They do.
20:47
SPEAKER_01: They do.
20:48
SPEAKER_01: They ask us to pray for them, but they do pray for us.
20:52
SPEAKER_01: They want us to be bold followers of Christ.
20:55
Just as we pray,
20:56
they also will be bold followers of Christ where they are.
21:00
SPEAKER_00: Is there a perception they have of Christians here?
21:04
SPEAKER_01: You know, it depends on where you're at.
21:06
SPEAKER_01: I'll never forget a conversation with a house church pastor in China,
21:10
SPEAKER_01: and since then he's passed away.
21:12
SPEAKER_01: He's now in heaven.
21:13
SPEAKER_01: But he said, in China, the devil uses persecution to attack the church.
21:19
SPEAKER_01: He said, in America, the devil uses prosperity to attack the church.
21:22
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
21:23
SPEAKER_01: And they're both weapons,
21:24
SPEAKER_01: and they're both attacks against the church,
21:26
SPEAKER_01: but the devil will use whatever weapon is available to him.
21:30
And I thought that was very interesting,
21:32
and I found it a little bit convicting.
21:34
SPEAKER_01: Like, are we so wrapped up in our prosperity?
21:37
SPEAKER_01: Are we so wrapped up in our comfort?
21:39
SPEAKER_01: And are we handing that to the devil as a weapon to use against us?
21:44
SPEAKER_01: Or are we willing to be uncomfortable?
21:46
Are we willing to be unprosperous and really focused on the
21:50
kingdom and focused on
21:51
SPEAKER_01: the advance of the gospel?
21:53
SPEAKER_00: That is incredibly powerful.
21:56
Just continuing on that line of talking about Christians in
21:59
America and martyrdom,
22:02
SPEAKER_00: Charlie Kirk had such a significant impact on Christians here.
22:06
SPEAKER_00: What are your thoughts on that?
22:08
SPEAKER_00: Because I mean,
22:08
SPEAKER_00: it really,
22:09
I felt in my heart that we were witnessing something monumental
22:13
and historic,
22:13
SPEAKER_00: like witnessing a modern martyr here.
22:17
SPEAKER_00: What impact do you see that as having on Christians here?
22:22
I'm very interested to see what happens in the months and even
22:27
in the years to come.
22:28
SPEAKER_01: I honestly was not super familiar with Charlie Kirk before that day.
22:33
SPEAKER_01: Since that time,
22:34
I have watched some video of him defending biblical principles
22:39
and often doing it
22:40
SPEAKER_01: in a winsome way,
22:42
SPEAKER_01: in a way that showed care for the people he was speaking to.
22:46
SPEAKER_01: And so...
22:47
SPEAKER_01: One of the things I know has happened is,
22:50
SPEAKER_01: like me,
22:50
SPEAKER_01: a lot of people have gone online and watched videos of Charlie.
22:54
And so,
22:54
you know,
22:55
who knows what gospel seeds have been planted through those
22:58
videos?
22:58
Who knows how many of those people were asking spiritual
23:02
questions and eternal
23:03
SPEAKER_01: questions and thought,
23:05
SPEAKER_01: oh,
23:05
SPEAKER_01: well,
23:05
SPEAKER_01: I'm just going to look at what he says.
23:07
SPEAKER_01: And we don't know how the Lord is going to use this.
23:10
SPEAKER_01: But I think one of the things I hope happens is American Christians...
23:16
SPEAKER_01: have that concept that it could cost me to follow Jesus Christ.
23:21
SPEAKER_01: We often think, well, no, I was born in America.
23:23
SPEAKER_01: I have a blue passport.
23:25
SPEAKER_01: That's something that happens in Africa or that happens in China.
23:29
SPEAKER_01: maybe this is a reminder.
23:32
SPEAKER_01: What if it cost me to follow Jesus?
23:35
SPEAKER_01: And most of us, frankly, we're not dealing with the risk of being shot.
23:39
We're dealing with the risk of having an awkward conversation
23:41
with our neighbors.
23:42
SPEAKER_01: Like,
23:43
SPEAKER_01: you know,
23:43
SPEAKER_01: when I share the gospel with my neighbors,
23:45
SPEAKER_01: they might chuckle and they might think I'm a little weird.
23:48
SPEAKER_01: Okay, yes, that's a sacrifice, but it's not getting shot.
23:52
SPEAKER_01: It's not someone beating you up.
23:54
SPEAKER_01: And so I always try to tell American Christians, like, hey,
23:58
SPEAKER_01: Our risk is pretty low.
24:00
Surely if our brothers and sisters in China and Iran can risk
24:04
going to prison and
24:05
SPEAKER_01: being tortured,
24:07
SPEAKER_01: we could maybe risk an awkward conversation.
24:09
SPEAKER_01: 100%.
24:12
Do you see other examples in places around the world where
24:16
martyrs have had a
24:17
SPEAKER_00: powerful impact like that?
24:19
SPEAKER_01: You know, we see it in the Book of Acts.
24:21
We see people laying down their lives for Christ,
24:24
and we're inspired by that.
24:26
SPEAKER_01: I talked to a gospel worker from China not long ago,
24:30
SPEAKER_01: and as often happens,
24:32
SPEAKER_01: as I have conversations on Voice of the Martyrs Radio,
24:34
SPEAKER_01: one of my last questions is,
24:36
SPEAKER_01: okay,
24:36
SPEAKER_01: well,
24:36
SPEAKER_01: how can we pray?
24:38
SPEAKER_01: And one of the things he said is specifically for China,
24:41
SPEAKER_01: he said,
24:41
pray for the young believers who are going through persecution
24:45
for the first time.
24:47
It's gotten harder for Christians in China over the last,
24:49
you know,
24:50
three,
24:50
four,
24:50
five years.
24:51
And they have the stories of their grandfathers who did go
24:55
through persecution,
24:56
SPEAKER_01: but they haven't lived them.
24:59
SPEAKER_01: So pray that they'll stand firm.
25:01
SPEAKER_01: Because he said,
25:01
SPEAKER_01: after you go through persecution and you see,
25:04
SPEAKER_01: okay,
25:04
SPEAKER_01: God is faithful,
25:06
SPEAKER_01: even in a jail cell,
25:07
SPEAKER_01: even in a courtroom,
25:09
SPEAKER_01: even in the police station,
25:11
SPEAKER_01: God is faithful.
25:12
SPEAKER_01: After you see that the first time, you have a little more confidence.
25:17
SPEAKER_01: So they are inspired by the stories of their grandfathers,
25:20
SPEAKER_01: but they also have to live it and see it firsthand.
25:23
But there is so much power in the stories of our brothers and
25:27
sisters and seeing
25:29
SPEAKER_01: God's faithfulness and just knowing and being reminded,
25:32
SPEAKER_01: God is faithful,
25:33
SPEAKER_01: God can carry me through.
25:36
SPEAKER_00: That's a great point, just how powerful these stories can be.
25:40
SPEAKER_00: Speaking of that,
25:40
there was a viral clip recently of Bill Maher talking about the
25:45
crisis in Nigeria
25:46
and how Christians are being killed by the Islamic group Boko
25:50
Haram and how
25:52
SPEAKER_00: nobody's talking about it.
25:53
SPEAKER_00: There are no news outlets talking about it.
25:55
SPEAKER_00: Well, except maybe you guys.
25:57
SPEAKER_01: I was going to say, somebody's talking about it.
25:59
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right?
26:00
SPEAKER_00: Maybe that's how we heard about it.
26:02
But do you feel that there is a consistent lack of coverage
26:07
here in the West of
26:09
SPEAKER_00: Christian persecution around the world?
26:12
And then if you could also just share a little bit more about
26:14
what's happening in
26:15
SPEAKER_00: Nigeria for anyone who's interested,
26:18
SPEAKER_00: because there were no news stories about it.
26:20
SPEAKER_01: So one of my jobs here at Voice of the Martyrs is media relations.
26:24
SPEAKER_01: And so I do watch what the media says.
26:26
SPEAKER_01: I do kind of monitor this.
26:28
SPEAKER_01: And over the years,
26:29
I've kind of developed a theory that there's going to be one
26:32
Christian persecution
26:33
story per year that is going to break through the national
26:38
conversation that's
26:39
SPEAKER_01: going to break through to the secular media.
26:42
SPEAKER_01: And
26:42
SPEAKER_01: You know,
26:43
SPEAKER_01: several years ago,
26:43
SPEAKER_01: it was the Chibok girls that were kidnapped in Nigeria,
26:46
SPEAKER_01: and that became a big story.
26:47
SPEAKER_01: And a couple years later,
26:48
SPEAKER_01: it was Pastor Andrew Brunson,
26:50
SPEAKER_01: the American pastor who was arrested in Turkey.
26:52
SPEAKER_01: Okay, that was the story for that year.
26:54
SPEAKER_01: And so I don't think that theory is 100% true, but it's close.
26:58
Like once a year,
27:00
the secular media is going to talk about a Christian
27:02
persecution story.
27:04
SPEAKER_01: But obviously, Voice of the Martyrs, we're talking about it all the time.
27:07
SPEAKER_01: It's happening all the time.
27:08
SPEAKER_01: And so,
27:09
SPEAKER_01: frankly,
27:09
SPEAKER_01: I celebrate when someone like Bill Maher brings it up,
27:12
SPEAKER_01: is like people who aren't subscribing to Voice of the Martyrs magazine,
27:16
SPEAKER_01: but they are watching Bill Maher,
27:18
SPEAKER_01: they're going to hear about persecuted Christians.
27:20
SPEAKER_01: The word is going to go out,
27:22
SPEAKER_01: and who knows what God will do with that seed once it's planted,
27:26
SPEAKER_01: but—
27:27
SPEAKER_01: As it relates to Nigeria,
27:28
SPEAKER_01: there is so much violence in the northern part of Nigeria,
27:32
SPEAKER_01: and Boko Haram is one of the groups.
27:34
SPEAKER_01: There is another group that is also attacking Christians.
27:38
SPEAKER_01: It is now spreading across the border into Cameroon,
27:42
SPEAKER_01: into Niger,
27:43
SPEAKER_01: and so we are seeing those Christians attacked,
27:46
SPEAKER_01: and oftentimes they have to flee with only what they can carry,
27:50
SPEAKER_01: and so Voice of the Martyrs is involved in helping
27:53
SPEAKER_01: even provide tarps for them to sleep under,
27:56
SPEAKER_01: provide food to get them through to the next meal,
27:59
SPEAKER_01: the next day.
28:00
SPEAKER_01: But more importantly,
28:02
SPEAKER_01: as Voice of the Martyrs delivers that help,
28:06
SPEAKER_01: is the message that you're not alone,
28:08
SPEAKER_01: you're not forgotten,
28:09
SPEAKER_01: you're part of the body of Christ,
28:11
SPEAKER_01: and we remember you.
28:12
SPEAKER_01: We are with you in this time of suffering.
28:15
SPEAKER_01: And
28:16
SPEAKER_01: We have worked alongside in northern Nigeria some amazing pastors.
28:20
I think of one pastor who it was so unsafe that he sent his
28:24
family about six hours
28:27
SPEAKER_01: away to be in safety,
28:29
SPEAKER_01: but he stayed there.
28:30
SPEAKER_01: And what he said was,
28:33
SPEAKER_01: if I leave, who's going to shepherd my flock?
28:36
SPEAKER_01: I need to stay here.
28:37
SPEAKER_01: So even as he recognized it's not safe,
28:40
SPEAKER_01: it's not safe enough that I want my wife and children here,
28:43
SPEAKER_01: but I'm going to stay here because this is where God has called me,
28:46
that's the kind of courage and the kind of commitment that our
28:49
persecuted brothers
28:50
SPEAKER_01: and sisters show us and inspire us with as they say,
28:55
SPEAKER_01: no,
28:55
SPEAKER_01: as long as God has called me here,
28:57
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to stay here no matter what happens.
29:01
SPEAKER_00: What are the reasons for the persecution?
29:03
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
29:04
SPEAKER_00: I know that there are probably a variety,
29:06
SPEAKER_00: but in this case,
29:07
SPEAKER_00: for example,
29:08
SPEAKER_00: is it ethnic cleansing?
29:09
SPEAKER_00: Are they threatened by Christians or what is it?
29:13
SPEAKER_01: Boko Haram wants to set up a caliphate.
29:16
SPEAKER_01: They want to set up an Islamic nation in northern Nigeria,
29:21
SPEAKER_01: and so that's part of the reason that Christians are targeted,
29:25
SPEAKER_01: especially pastors,
29:26
SPEAKER_01: especially churches,
29:28
is that that gets in the way of setting up their idea of this
29:32
sort of promised land
29:34
SPEAKER_01: for Islam,
29:35
SPEAKER_01: for Muslims.
29:37
SPEAKER_01: That's the case in Nigeria.
29:39
SPEAKER_01: In many cases, it comes down to power.
29:54
SPEAKER_01: as followers of Jesus Christ, our first loyalty is to Jesus Christ.
29:59
And hopefully we wake up every morning and say,
30:01
Lord,
30:01
what can I do to serve you today?
30:03
SPEAKER_01: Well, the Chinese Communist Party sees that as a threat.
30:06
SPEAKER_01: That's competition for them,
30:08
SPEAKER_01: because if you're serving Christ today,
30:10
SPEAKER_01: you're probably not serving the Communist Party.
30:12
SPEAKER_01: You're not serving their interests.
30:14
SPEAKER_01: And so sometimes it's a power struggle.
30:17
SPEAKER_01: It is just a battle for hearts and minds.
30:20
SPEAKER_01: And
30:20
Christianity,
30:21
the Bible,
30:22
gospel teaching is a threat in that battle for hearts and
30:26
minds.
30:27
I think I read somewhere that some churches in communist China
30:30
are forced to recite
30:31
SPEAKER_00: some communist creed at the start of their services.
30:34
SPEAKER_01: Yes, and in the last few years, that has ratcheted up.
30:38
It's like,
30:38
hey,
30:39
you know,
30:39
you used to sing Amazing Grace at the start of your service.
30:42
SPEAKER_01: We want you to sing...
30:43
hail to the communist party at the start of your service you
30:46
used to say the lord's
30:48
prayer now we want you to say something nice about jinping our
30:51
president and so
30:52
that pressure is mounting in china and they've just passed some
30:57
new laws relating
30:58
to foreigners being involved in any kind of religion or any
31:02
kind of religious talk
31:03
SPEAKER_01: and making it illegal
31:06
SPEAKER_01: as a foreigner to talk about religion,
31:08
SPEAKER_01: not just in front of a group of people like speaking in a church,
31:11
SPEAKER_01: but literally anywhere,
31:12
SPEAKER_01: anytime,
31:13
SPEAKER_01: to talk about religion as a foreigner.
31:15
SPEAKER_01: That is now illegal in China.
31:18
SPEAKER_01: One of the other things that drives persecution,
31:20
SPEAKER_01: and this is especially true oftentimes in Islamic cultures,
31:24
SPEAKER_01: is the honor-shame culture,
31:26
SPEAKER_01: and oftentimes persecution starts with your own family.
31:29
And it's a matter of,
31:31
hey,
31:31
we're a Muslim family,
31:32
and now you say you're following Jesus.
31:35
SPEAKER_01: Well,
31:37
SPEAKER_01: We don't do that.
31:39
SPEAKER_01: You're not part of our family anymore if you do that.
31:41
SPEAKER_01: And also that brings shame on our family.
31:44
SPEAKER_01: As a dad,
31:45
SPEAKER_01: my neighbor or my fellow dads are going to say,
31:48
SPEAKER_01: how could you let your child leave Islam?
31:50
What kind of dad are you that your son would be a follower of
31:53
Jesus Christ?
31:55
SPEAKER_01: How terrible have you been as a father that that would happen?
31:58
SPEAKER_01: So there's that shame that drives persecution as well.
32:02
SPEAKER_01: So sometimes it's power.
32:03
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes it's shame, honor, shame culture.
32:06
Often it's one of those two that is driving the mindset of the
32:11
persecutors.
32:13
Just being honest,
32:14
what you mentioned with the family and shame,
32:16
that is my story to a T.
32:21
SPEAKER_01: I have heard that that is common in Jewish culture as well.
32:25
SPEAKER_01: As you come out of a Jewish family, it's like, what are you doing?
32:28
How could you even grab a hold of that teaching and bring this
32:31
shame on us?
32:34
SPEAKER_00: Which they don't realize it's a fulfillment of Judaism.
32:36
SPEAKER_00: It's not leaving it.
32:37
SPEAKER_00: It's the end of the story.
32:41
SPEAKER_00: And also with that,
32:43
it made me think of the stories in I think your most recent
32:46
magazine issue about
32:47
SPEAKER_00: the voodoo culture in Benin.
32:50
There was a story about a Christian who was kicked out of his
32:52
family because they
32:53
SPEAKER_00: said,
32:53
SPEAKER_00: well,
32:53
SPEAKER_00: you can't participate in our voodoo rituals anymore.
32:57
SPEAKER_00: You're not part of our culture anymore.
32:59
SPEAKER_00: And I mean, don't mess with voodoo.
33:01
SPEAKER_00: That's terrifying.
33:02
SPEAKER_00: You're going to stick a pin through your heart.
33:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
33:05
it was such an eye-opener because we don't think of Benin as a
33:10
place where heavy
33:12
SPEAKER_01: persecution is happening.
33:13
But one of the encouraging stories out of that magazine was
33:17
they began to persecute
33:19
the church because they realized when the church was meeting
33:23
and praising the Lord
33:24
SPEAKER_01: and praying together,
33:25
SPEAKER_01: their spells didn't work.
33:28
SPEAKER_01: The magic was broken by the power of God—
33:31
SPEAKER_01: And that's why they attack the church.
33:33
SPEAKER_01: It's like,
33:33
SPEAKER_01: hey,
33:33
SPEAKER_01: when you Christians are gathering and praying to your God,
33:36
SPEAKER_01: our spells don't work anymore.
33:38
SPEAKER_01: Now,
33:39
SPEAKER_01: you would hope,
33:40
SPEAKER_01: and hopefully they explain,
33:41
SPEAKER_01: well,
33:42
SPEAKER_01: that's because our God is more powerful than your spells.
33:44
SPEAKER_01: That's why we're worshiping him today.
33:47
SPEAKER_01: But I was so encouraged by that.
33:49
SPEAKER_01: They recognize there is a power when Christians gather.
33:53
SPEAKER_01: There is a power when they worship and when they pray.
33:56
SPEAKER_01: Even the enemies of the gospel recognize that power.
33:59
SPEAKER_01: And frankly, I think sometimes they recognize it more than we do.
34:02
SPEAKER_01: We need to understand there's power in that as well.
34:05
I know the demonic realm is real,
34:08
but these voodoo spells,
34:10
I mean,
34:10
do they really actually work?
34:12
SPEAKER_00: Could this have just been coincidence?
34:15
SPEAKER_00: Playing devil's advocate.
34:16
SPEAKER_01: You know,
34:16
there are enough stories of the spell being cast and something
34:21
terrible happening,
34:22
SPEAKER_01: even people dying.
34:24
The thing that I take out of that is,
34:26
boy,
34:26
we don't want to mess with the demonic.
34:28
Like there are some in America that think you can sort of play
34:32
with that like it's
34:33
SPEAKER_01: a toy or it's a game or something.
34:35
Boy,
34:36
stay away from that stuff because it does have power and it's
34:39
not the power of light.
34:40
SPEAKER_01: It's the power of darkness.
34:43
SPEAKER_00: I just did an episode on whether Christians should celebrate Halloween,
34:46
SPEAKER_00: and that was like the number one reason of why not to.
34:50
SPEAKER_00: Don't mess with the demonic realm because Ouija boards,
34:53
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
34:53
SPEAKER_00: you can actually be conjuring demons.
34:55
SPEAKER_00: You never know.
34:57
SPEAKER_00: Let's talk about how we can help here.
35:01
SPEAKER_00: How can we get involved?
35:02
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
35:02
SPEAKER_00: when you talked about the Nigerians,
35:04
SPEAKER_00: I just wanted to scoop up that family and adopt them right on the spot.
35:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
35:09
SPEAKER_00: I'm serious.
35:10
SPEAKER_01: I know.
35:11
My wife and I have the same conversation,
35:13
so it's like,
35:13
hey,
35:13
we have a spare room.
35:18
SPEAKER_01: One of the things,
35:19
SPEAKER_01: and I'll just respond to that real fast,
35:20
SPEAKER_01: but we don't want to pull the gospel out of Nigeria.
35:24
SPEAKER_01: One of the Voice of the Martyrs kind of bedrock things is—
35:27
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes we help people relocate within their country,
35:30
SPEAKER_01: like to a safer spot,
35:32
but typically we don't help them get out of their country
35:35
because we want the
35:36
SPEAKER_01: gospel to be there.
35:37
We want there to be Christian lighthouses and Christian
35:40
witnesses for Christ,
35:41
SPEAKER_01: and typically that's what they want too.
35:43
SPEAKER_01: It's like, Lord, help them to be faithful where they're at.
35:47
They're not asking us to pray that they won't suffer anymore or
35:50
that persecution
35:51
SPEAKER_01: will suddenly stop.
35:52
SPEAKER_01: They're asking us to pray in
35:53
SPEAKER_01: Help me to be faithful in the midst of the suffering,
35:56
SPEAKER_01: in the midst of what is happening in my country.
36:00
SPEAKER_01: For those who are watching and listening,
36:01
SPEAKER_01: I always encourage,
36:03
SPEAKER_01: if this is your first contact with our persecuted brothers and sisters,
36:07
SPEAKER_01: this is maybe a new thing for you to hear about this,
36:10
SPEAKER_01: take three steps.
36:11
SPEAKER_01: The first one is, I want you to commit to pray.
36:14
SPEAKER_01: for our brothers and sisters who are suffering persecution.
36:17
SPEAKER_01: And that's not my request, that's their request.
36:19
SPEAKER_01: That's the first thing they ask us to do is to pray for them.
36:23
SPEAKER_01: So make that commitment that, yes, I'm going to pray.
36:25
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to pray for persecuted Christians.
36:27
And then the second step is to educate yourself so that you can
36:30
pray more effectively.
36:32
SPEAKER_01: I love the prayer, God bless persecuted Christians.
36:35
But I think it's easy not to pray that prayer because it's not
36:38
very personal,
36:38
SPEAKER_01: it's not very connected.
36:40
SPEAKER_01: As you educate yourself,
36:42
SPEAKER_01: that prayer,
36:43
SPEAKER_01: God bless persecuted Christians,
36:45
SPEAKER_01: becomes God bless Pastor Wang Yi,
36:47
SPEAKER_01: who is serving nine years in a Chinese prison right now.
36:50
SPEAKER_01: Bless his wife, Zhong Rong.
36:52
SPEAKER_01: Bless their son, Joshua.
36:54
SPEAKER_01: Sustain them today.
36:55
SPEAKER_01: Encourage them today.
36:56
SPEAKER_01: Keep them healthy today.
36:58
Those prayers become much more personal as we educate ourselves
37:02
so that we can pray
37:03
SPEAKER_01: more specifically.
37:04
SPEAKER_01: And Voice of the Martyrs has lots of tools to help you do that.
37:07
SPEAKER_01: We have a free monthly magazine.
37:09
We have an app for your phone that has a new prayer request
37:13
every single day.
37:14
We have Voice of the Martyrs Radio,
37:16
where I always ask that question,
37:17
okay,
37:17
how do we pray?
37:19
SPEAKER_01: So number one, commit to pray.
37:20
SPEAKER_01: Number two, educate yourself so that you can pray more effectively.
37:24
And then I always tell people,
37:25
step three is whatever God lays on your heart to do.
37:28
SPEAKER_01: Because as you're praying and as you're learning more,
37:32
SPEAKER_01: God's going to put his thumb on something and say,
37:34
SPEAKER_01: okay,
37:34
SPEAKER_01: now I want you to...
37:36
And maybe that's going to be write letters to Christians who
37:39
are in prison.
37:40
Maybe it's going to be sponsor Bibles to be delivered to
37:43
Christians in hostile
37:44
SPEAKER_01: areas and restricted nations.
37:46
Maybe it's going to be get on an airplane and go to one of
37:49
these countries and pray
37:50
SPEAKER_01: on the ground and meet Christians and encourage them face to face.
37:55
But all of that is going to come as we're praying and as we're
37:58
learning more.
37:59
SPEAKER_01: Then we just wait for God to say, okay, now step three for you is this.
38:03
SPEAKER_01: And then we just have to be obedient to what God is calling us to do.
38:08
SPEAKER_00: Does VOM have resources and information on where to write letters,
38:12
SPEAKER_00: for example,
38:13
SPEAKER_00: like individual stories like that?
38:15
Prisoneralert.com gives you the address of the prison where the
38:19
Christian's being held.
38:20
SPEAKER_01: It gives you the postage that you need to put on the envelope.
38:23
SPEAKER_01: Prisoneralert.com.
38:25
SPEAKER_01: I'll tell just a quick story.
38:27
SPEAKER_01: I was just in Asia last month,
38:29
and I met with the wife of a pastor who had been imprisoned in
38:33
Central Asia.
38:34
SPEAKER_01: And he has since passed away.
38:36
SPEAKER_01: He's gone on to heaven.
38:38
SPEAKER_01: But she talked about during the two years that he was in prison,
38:41
SPEAKER_01: the custodian of the prison came to him one day and said,
38:44
SPEAKER_01: you're getting boxes of mail.
38:47
Like,
38:47
you're getting letters from America and from Australia and from
38:50
Europe.
38:52
SPEAKER_01: Like, why are all these people writing letters to you?
38:54
SPEAKER_01: The guy never got to see the letters.
38:57
SPEAKER_01: Like they never actually gave them to him.
38:59
SPEAKER_01: They never delivered them to him.
39:01
But she said that was such an encouragement to him to know that
39:05
people remembered him.
39:07
SPEAKER_01: He wasn't forgotten.
39:08
SPEAKER_01: And I actually,
39:09
I was able to pull out my iPad and I actually showed her her
39:11
husband's page on the
39:14
SPEAKER_01: site.
39:14
SPEAKER_01: And I said,
39:15
I know where some of those letters came from because we
39:17
encourage people to write
39:18
SPEAKER_01: letters to your husband.
39:20
And with tears streaming down her face,
39:23
she said,
39:23
thank you,
39:24
thank you,
39:24
thank you.
39:25
SPEAKER_01: You don't know what a difference that made for my husband.
39:29
SPEAKER_01: You don't know what an encouragement that was for him.
39:32
SPEAKER_01: And so I came back from that trip very motivated to tell people,
39:35
SPEAKER_01: hey,
39:36
SPEAKER_01: prisoneralert.com,
39:37
SPEAKER_01: go write a letter to Christians in prison.
39:39
SPEAKER_01: we don't know the difference it's going to make.
39:41
SPEAKER_01: We don't know how God's going to use those letters,
39:44
SPEAKER_01: and we have heard story after story after story where the prisoner,
39:48
SPEAKER_01: on a very practical,
39:50
SPEAKER_01: real level,
39:50
SPEAKER_01: they are treated better
39:53
SPEAKER_01: Because it is assumed,
39:54
SPEAKER_01: like,
39:55
SPEAKER_01: if they're getting mail from America and all over the world,
39:57
SPEAKER_01: they must be important.
39:58
SPEAKER_01: Like, the rest of the world is watching how we treat this prisoner.
40:02
SPEAKER_01: We better make sure he survives.
40:04
SPEAKER_01: We better make sure he gets enough to eat.
40:06
SPEAKER_01: Because, look, the whole world is watching this.
40:09
SPEAKER_01: So, PrisonerAlert.com, write letters to Christians in prison.
40:13
SPEAKER_01: It makes a difference.
40:15
SPEAKER_00: And sometimes they do actually get to read the letters?
40:17
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes they do, yes.
40:19
SPEAKER_01: We've heard stories where they got the letters.
40:20
SPEAKER_01: We've heard stories where they don't get the letters.
40:23
SPEAKER_01: Almost always, though, they hear about the letters.
40:25
One of my very favorites was from two ladies,
40:28
Marzia and Mariam,
40:29
who were imprisoned in Iran.
40:31
SPEAKER_01: And they never got to see the letters,
40:34
SPEAKER_01: but they tell the story that one day one of the guards asked them,
40:39
SPEAKER_01: they're like,
40:39
SPEAKER_01: do you realize how much trouble you're causing for us?
40:43
SPEAKER_01: And these two sweet ladies are like, you know, we're in jail.
40:47
SPEAKER_01: Like, how much trouble can we possibly be causing?
40:50
SPEAKER_01: We're in jail.
40:51
SPEAKER_01: And the guard was like,
40:52
you are getting so much mail and we have to read every single
40:56
one of those letters.
40:57
SPEAKER_01: And that's causing us all kinds of extra work.
41:00
SPEAKER_01: And they smiled.
41:02
I wonder if any of those guards became Christian after reading
41:04
those letters.
41:06
SPEAKER_01: I wonder that too,
41:07
SPEAKER_01: and I wonder if we'll hear in eternity that,
41:09
SPEAKER_01: yes,
41:09
SPEAKER_01: that happened because of those gospel seeds.
41:12
They say,
41:12
you know,
41:13
they smile like,
41:14
if the letters are for us,
41:15
you don't have to read them.
41:16
SPEAKER_01: You could just give them to us.
41:17
SPEAKER_01: We'll read them.
41:18
SPEAKER_01: They never got to see the letters,
41:19
SPEAKER_01: but that conversation so encouraged them that,
41:23
SPEAKER_01: yes,
41:23
SPEAKER_01: they were not forgotten.
41:25
So story after story like that of just the difference of simply
41:29
putting a letter in
41:30
SPEAKER_01: the mail and praying for the prisoner that you're writing to.
41:35
SPEAKER_00: Speaking of praying for the persecuted,
41:38
SPEAKER_00: can you talk about November 2nd a little bit,
41:40
SPEAKER_00: what that day is all about?
41:41
SPEAKER_01: Yes, November 2nd, International Day of Prayer for Persecuted Christians.
41:46
And our hope is every single church praying for persecuted
41:51
Christians on that Sunday.
41:53
And it's,
41:54
you know,
41:54
some churches will make it a part of their normal Sunday prayer
41:57
time.
41:57
Some churches will have a special extra prayer time for
42:00
persecuted Christians.
42:02
SPEAKER_01: Some churches will go all out.
42:03
SPEAKER_01: We've heard from churches who do their own underground church service,
42:06
SPEAKER_01: and they meet in the basement that day,
42:08
SPEAKER_01: and they circulate a secret knock that you need to get in the door.
42:12
And we've heard of churches that will have the sheriff come in
42:16
and arrest the
42:17
SPEAKER_01: pastor in the middle of the service,
42:18
SPEAKER_01: and it's like,
42:18
SPEAKER_01: whoa,
42:19
SPEAKER_01: whoa,
42:19
SPEAKER_01: what's going on here?
42:20
SPEAKER_01: And then they get to say,
42:21
SPEAKER_01: well,
42:22
SPEAKER_01: you know,
42:23
SPEAKER_01: our pastor's not really getting arrested,
42:24
SPEAKER_01: but there are pastors who are getting arrested today,
42:27
SPEAKER_01: and we need to pray for them,
42:28
SPEAKER_01: and we're going to do that right now.
42:29
SPEAKER_01: So different churches will handle it differently,
42:33
SPEAKER_01: but like I say,
42:34
SPEAKER_01: our hope is every single church is praying for persecuted Christians,
42:37
SPEAKER_01: and we have resources on the website,
42:40
SPEAKER_01: persecution.com,
42:41
SPEAKER_01: to help you pray.
42:42
SPEAKER_01: We have a video that
42:43
SPEAKER_01: that shows, illustrates the people we're praying for.
42:46
SPEAKER_01: It lets you put a name and a face to those that we're praying for,
42:50
SPEAKER_01: but every church praying for persecuted Christians,
42:53
SPEAKER_01: that's the point of IDOP Sunday,
42:55
SPEAKER_01: which is November the 2nd.
42:58
SPEAKER_00: I wonder if any churches do the
43:00
SPEAKER_00: exercise about the communion.
43:02
There's that incredible story about the Wurmbrands when they
43:04
were in prison and
43:06
SPEAKER_00: they had no bread,
43:07
SPEAKER_00: no wine,
43:08
SPEAKER_00: but they really wanted to,
43:10
SPEAKER_00: to hold communion.
43:11
SPEAKER_00: And so can you talk about that a little bit?
43:13
SPEAKER_00: I just love that story, how they did it out of nothing.
43:15
SPEAKER_01: You know, honestly, I don't remember that story.
43:18
SPEAKER_01: I think you need to tell it.
43:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
43:20
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
43:20
I won't do such a good job,
43:21
but basically they said,
43:24
we don't have anything.
43:25
SPEAKER_00: We don't have the bread.
43:26
SPEAKER_00: We don't have the wine.
43:27
SPEAKER_00: As I said,
43:29
SPEAKER_00: But we have nothing.
43:30
SPEAKER_00: And what is nothing?
43:31
SPEAKER_00: Nothing is something because God created the world out of nothing.
43:35
SPEAKER_00: And so they use that as as the premise.
43:39
And then they just went from there and did this incredible,
43:42
powerful communion prayer.
43:43
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
43:44
Yeah,
43:45
just the perspective that people get from being imprisoned for
43:48
their faith.
43:48
SPEAKER_00: It's unbelievable.
43:50
I had a conversation with an American gospel worker who was
43:53
imprisoned in the
43:53
SPEAKER_01: Middle East with three other Christians,
43:56
SPEAKER_01: and he talked about,
43:57
SPEAKER_01: you know,
43:57
SPEAKER_01: the first few days,
43:59
SPEAKER_01: they were fearful.
44:00
SPEAKER_01: They were petrified.
44:01
SPEAKER_01: What's going to happen to us?
44:02
SPEAKER_01: How long is this going to last?
44:04
SPEAKER_01: Are they going to execute us?
44:05
SPEAKER_01: Like, what is going to happen?
44:07
And he said on the third or fourth day,
44:09
they decided to have communion together in their cell.
44:12
SPEAKER_01: And...
44:13
SPEAKER_01: They took their dry,
44:14
SPEAKER_01: crusty bread from their tray,
44:17
SPEAKER_01: and he said,
44:18
SPEAKER_01: we don't have wine,
44:19
SPEAKER_01: so they used water.
44:19
And he kind of joked,
44:20
you know,
44:21
Jesus turned water into wine,
44:22
so that's not a problem for him.
44:23
SPEAKER_01: We can do that.
44:24
SPEAKER_01: When they had communion together on that day,
44:27
he said it was like Jesus Christ himself walked into the prison
44:31
cell and took away
44:33
SPEAKER_01: all their questions and all their worry and all their fear and
44:38
He said it was such a powerful experience that the rest of
44:41
their time in prison,
44:41
SPEAKER_01: they had communion together three times a day.
44:44
Like three times a day they wanted to—and he said every single
44:47
time it was like
44:47
SPEAKER_01: Jesus showed up,
44:49
SPEAKER_01: he was in the cell with us.
44:51
SPEAKER_01: And honestly,
44:52
SPEAKER_01: I think of that even at my own church when we take communion,
44:55
SPEAKER_01: I think of that story.
44:56
SPEAKER_01: Jesus, I want to experience your presence.
44:58
SPEAKER_01: I want you to walk in and take away my worry and take away my fear.
45:03
And the power of inviting Christ's presence into our
45:07
circumstance,
45:08
into our situation.
45:10
SPEAKER_01: But I don't remember that story from the Wormbrands,
45:14
SPEAKER_01: but it reminds me of that story from our brother in the Middle East.
45:17
SPEAKER_00: That's an incredible story.
45:18
SPEAKER_00: It gave me chills while you were talking about that.
45:22
I like to end every episode by asking my interviewee to share a
45:25
Bible verse.
45:26
SPEAKER_00: Obviously, there are so many in the New Testament about persecution.
45:31
Is there one favorite of yours that just really stands out and
45:35
has inspired you
45:36
SPEAKER_00: along your journey to share the stories of persecuted Christians?
45:40
SPEAKER_01: Boy, there's a lot.
45:42
SPEAKER_01: I know.
45:45
The one that comes immediately to my mind is the story of the
45:48
apostles being taken
45:50
SPEAKER_01: before the Jewish council and they were warned and they were beaten.
45:55
And then it says they left the council rejoicing that they were
46:00
counted worthy to
46:01
SPEAKER_01: suffer for the name of Christ.
46:03
That idea of rejoicing in the midst of suffering is something
46:09
that I have seen
46:10
again and again and again in the persecuted brothers and
46:12
sisters that I've gotten
46:13
SPEAKER_01: to interview.
46:14
SPEAKER_01: You know, we hear the story of someone being beaten, and we think, boy—
46:19
SPEAKER_01: They're probably really discouraged.
46:21
SPEAKER_01: They're probably wondering, how could God let this happen to them?
46:24
And then you go and sit down with them,
46:25
and you say,
46:26
okay,
46:26
so how are you?
46:27
SPEAKER_01: And they're like,
46:28
SPEAKER_01: wow,
46:28
SPEAKER_01: look how faithful God is,
46:30
SPEAKER_01: and God was ministering to me in that room,
46:32
SPEAKER_01: and He was with me,
46:33
SPEAKER_01: and then I got to tell this person about Christ,
46:36
SPEAKER_01: and I got to tell this person about Christ,
46:37
SPEAKER_01: and...
46:39
They leave the room rejoicing that they were counted worthy to
46:43
suffer for the name
46:44
SPEAKER_01: of Christ,
46:44
SPEAKER_01: and it really mirrors the experience of the apostles in Acts,
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SPEAKER_01: and I hope that's an encouragement for us.
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SPEAKER_01: If we are called to suffer for the name of Christ—
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SPEAKER_01: God will show up in that.
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SPEAKER_01: He promises that.
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He promises to give us the words to say when we stand before
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kings and authorities.
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SPEAKER_01: He will tell us what to say.
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SPEAKER_01: And then the idea that it's a compliment,
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SPEAKER_01: it's a blessing from God if we are allowed,
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SPEAKER_01: if we are considered worthy to suffer for the name of Christ,
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SPEAKER_01: that is God's mark of favor on us.
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SPEAKER_01: that's mind-blowing.
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SPEAKER_01: And it's not a blessing any of us are praying for.
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SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm not praying, Lord, I hope I can be beaten.
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SPEAKER_01: I hope I can go to prison.
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But to see that as a blessing and to see that in the apostles
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and to see it in the
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SPEAKER_01: persecuted believers of today,
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SPEAKER_01: that's the verse that comes to mind.
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SPEAKER_00: Well, that is definitely a powerful note to end on.
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SPEAKER_00: So Todd Nettleton, thank you so much for joining us today.
47:47
SPEAKER_00: This was such an informative and inspiring conversation.
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SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you for having me.
47:52
SPEAKER_01: I love telling the stories of the brothers and sisters that I've met.
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SPEAKER_01: And so this is a great opportunity for me.
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SPEAKER_00: And thanks to all of you, our awesome listeners, for tuning in.
48:04
SPEAKER_00: Your support means so much.
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SPEAKER_00: So if you enjoyed today's conversation,
48:08
SPEAKER_00: be sure to subscribe and leave a review wherever you get your podcasts.
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Stay inspired,
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keep trusting in God's plan for your life,
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and we'll see you next time.