Latest / The Trauma Therapist / Guest Host Esther Goldstein interviews Dr Hindie Klein

Transcript

Guest Host Esther Goldstein interviews Dr Hindie Klein · The Trauma Therapist

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Trauma Therapist Podcast. My name is Guy McPherson.
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: I interview incredible people who've dedicated their lives to helping
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: those who've been impacted by trauma. A big thank you
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: to our sponsors and our guests who are supporting this show.
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: Hey, everyone. My name is Esther Goldstein. I'm a therapist
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  Speaker 2: that's located in New York, and I've been on Guy
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  Speaker 2: McPherson's podcast a few times. And he asked me to
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: invite someone to interview who I think could have profound
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: impact and conversation. I'd love to introduce you to a
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: dear colleague and friend, Dr. Hindy Klein. Hindy, could you
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  Speaker 2: introduce who you are, your school, and we'll have a conversation.
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  Speaker 3: Yes. How are you, everybody? My name is Hindy Klein.
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  Speaker 3: I'm a psychologist and a psychoanalyst. I've been doing this
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  Speaker 3: work for about 40 years. I was trained as a psycho,
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  Speaker 3: you know, after my doctorate in psychology, I was trained
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  Speaker 3: as a psychoanalyst. I ran a clinic. I was clinic
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  Speaker 3: director for 25 years. I've edited journals. I'm on a
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  Speaker 3: variety of different boards. And I love what I do.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: And fashion is working, you know, with healing and trauma,
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  Speaker 3: particularly sexual trauma. And just, you know, psychotherapy. What I
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  Speaker 3: do predominantly is psychoanalytic psychotherapy. I know Esther through a
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  Speaker 3: variety of different modalities that we've trained with together. including
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  Speaker 3: somatic and sensory motor. But my language of love is psychoanalysis.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, your psychoanalytic training. I was just telling Dr. Hindi
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  Speaker 2: how I recall years ago meeting her at a conference
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  Speaker 2: when I was younger in the profession and really hearing
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  Speaker 2: a story that Hindi was talking about in terms of
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  Speaker 2: working with a client who had really some complicated attachment
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  Speaker 2: injuries or struggles and the way that she worked with
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  Speaker 2: the client in a loving kind of way. But also
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  Speaker 2: in a very healthy and clear boundary kind of way.
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  Speaker 2: And that's kind of what piqued this conversation where I
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  Speaker 2: wanted us to talk a little bit, Hindi, if we can,
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  Speaker 2: about speaking about like, what is psychotherapy? I know you
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  Speaker 2: have the psychoanalytic background. I know you've obviously taken advanced
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  Speaker 2: training and you're up to date with all the latest
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  Speaker 2: methods and the clients you get to work with are
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  Speaker 2: so lucky to work with you. But I wondered if
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  Speaker 2: we could talk a little bit about, like, attachment in
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  Speaker 2: the therapeutic room and then the self of the therapist.
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  Speaker 2: Or what is the job of a therapist in helping
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  Speaker 2: our clients heal from attachment injuries or in terms of trauma,
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  Speaker 2: like you said, sexual trauma?
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  Speaker 3: Right. So, you know, first of all, just a little
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  Speaker 3: tidbit about attachment. When we think about attachment, we think
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  Speaker 3: about how a mother and an infant are I'm always
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  Speaker 3: drawn to the stories of G.W. Winnicott, who was a
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  Speaker 3: major relational analyst, a British relational analyst. And I learned
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  Speaker 3: so much from his writings. And he started out as a,
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  Speaker 3: he was a pediatrician. He started out as a pediatrician
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  Speaker 3: and he started observing what we call the mother-infant dyad.
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  Speaker 3: The moms would come in with their babies and he
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  Speaker 3: would observe their interactions and And he wasn't the original
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  Speaker 3: theoretician of attachment. That was Bowlby and Maine and people
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  Speaker 3: later on. But he developed the whole concept of understanding
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  Speaker 3: the mother-infant dyad. And then thus after that, there was,
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  Speaker 3: of course, all the attachment theory. So we have secure attachment, avoidant, dismissive, insecure,
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  Speaker 3: and the inconsistent attachment, the avoidant attachment. And of course,
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  Speaker 3: what we see Usually we see that when the children
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  Speaker 3: are raised by either schizophrenic or borderline mothers, we see
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  Speaker 3: the disorganized attachment. And you can kind of make a
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  Speaker 3: graph of the child's attachment style and what the parents
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  Speaker 3: are like towards them. And then you can make also
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  Speaker 3: what the child was like as a child. They were
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  Speaker 3: securely attached. They were dismissively attached and so on. And
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  Speaker 3: what they will be like as adults. And it usually
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  Speaker 3: goes hand in hand with how they were raised as children.
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  Speaker 3: But the most beautiful and important thing about attachment is
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  Speaker 3: that it's something that usually can be repaired. A lot
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  Speaker 3: of what we call attachment disruptions can be repaired through
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  Speaker 3: the psychotherapeutic relationship. And then we get into the whole concept,
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  Speaker 3: certainly in my type of work, of transference and countertransference,
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  Speaker 3: transference between the patients transferring onto the therapist all of
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  Speaker 3: their issues with significant others in their life. And so
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  Speaker 3: I could be the mother, I could be the father,
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  Speaker 3: I could be anybody significant and they're transferring those feelings,
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  Speaker 3: thoughts onto me. And then the countertransference is what I
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  Speaker 3: experience consciously or unconsciously while I am sitting with that
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  Speaker 3: patient because either my inner struggles or because something that
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  Speaker 3: they're saying that's being triggering or just in general about
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  Speaker 3: what they're talking about and my reaction to them very
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  Speaker 3: humanistically and how I deal with that as a therapist.
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  Speaker 3: Because if you don't understand your countertransference, If you don't
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  Speaker 3: get your own countertransference, in all opinion, I don't care
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  Speaker 3: what modality you're working with. You could be working with
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  Speaker 3: sensory motor. You could be working with somatic, IFS. I
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  Speaker 3: don't care. You need to know your countertransference. People will
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  Speaker 3: say in those modalities, you don't necessarily have to know
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  Speaker 3: your transference. Maybe you do, maybe you don't. Esther, you
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  Speaker 3: can respond to that.
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  Speaker 2: No, I think that that's very, I think it's almost like, actually,
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  Speaker 2: as you're saying all of this, can I like tag
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  Speaker 2: onto this?
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  Speaker 3: Please, please. We're having a discussion.
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  Speaker 2: No, I love this. I'll tell you why. Look, like
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  Speaker 2: we can go on and on. We were saying like
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  Speaker 2: we can go on and on about like theory and
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  Speaker 2: there's theory and then there's practice. And like you said earlier,
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  Speaker 2: one of the things that I really love about our
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  Speaker 2: previous conversation was that the real magic or the real
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  Speaker 2: power or the real shifts that happen in therapeutic experience
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  Speaker 2: in the therapy room is the presence of And the
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  Speaker 2: connection and almost like you spoke about like the earned
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  Speaker 2: a secure attachment that is cultivated in that therapeutic and
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  Speaker 2: relational dance that's happening between therapist and client. And I
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  Speaker 2: love how you're basically saying like we're talking about attachment.
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  Speaker 2: And right away you dove right into the concept of
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  Speaker 2: transference and counter transference. And the reason I love that
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  Speaker 2: you did that. is because there's always this unconscious layer.
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  Speaker 2: And that's what I so appreciate about the psychoanalytic standpoint
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  Speaker 2: that you come in with, because I actually think like
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  Speaker 2: you could drop whatever the titles are, but the reality
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  Speaker 2: is that safety is safety and transparency is transparency and
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  Speaker 2: respect is respect and security is security. And when you're
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  Speaker 2: talking about like attachment and there's all of us, we
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  Speaker 2: speak about this, like all of us as therapists have
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  Speaker 2: our own attachment dynamics. And you just said about your
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  Speaker 2: own supervision, your own therapy. Like if we haven't taken
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  Speaker 2: the time to look at our own attachment dynamics, If
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  Speaker 2: we're not noticing our own internal dance or the way
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  Speaker 2: we jump in to try to save a client or
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  Speaker 2: jump into wanting to get into this maternal transference or
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  Speaker 2: we pull away or avoid or we notice an aversive
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  Speaker 2: reaction or we have this interesting push or pull or
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  Speaker 2: whatever it is, then what are we actually doing? Because
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  Speaker 2: we're meant to be that base that even when we
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  Speaker 2: have our thoughts and feelings and reactions or just experiences,
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  Speaker 2: that we come back to that steady base and we
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  Speaker 2: allow them to be the ones who are having those experiences.
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  Speaker 2: in our therapeutic space. So I love how you actually
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  Speaker 2: jumped right away from attachment to transference, counter transference, because
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  Speaker 2: how can you speak about one without the other?
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  Speaker 3: Right. You need to understand when I do supervision and
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  Speaker 3: I do a lot of supervision and when we do
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  Speaker 3: supervision and we talk about cases very often, you know,
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  Speaker 3: we'll talk about the different dynamics, the contents of the case,
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  Speaker 3: but every so often I'll say to my supervisee, I'll
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  Speaker 3: say to the therapist, okay, so who are you in
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  Speaker 3: the transference? Like you're working with this patient. Who are
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  Speaker 3: you in the transference? Are you their mother? Are you
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  Speaker 3: their father? Are you their boss? I mean, who are
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  Speaker 3: you in the transference? Historically, consciously, unconsciously, what do you think?
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  Speaker 3: Sometimes it really gives the therapist pause and say, oh, like,
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  Speaker 3: who am I to them? We know that we are
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  Speaker 3: someone who is authentic, who is a presence, who is
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  Speaker 3: there to help and heal them and guide them and
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  Speaker 3: so on. Guide them. Well, I don't necessarily guide them.
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  Speaker 3: I say the word guide them carefully. because we don't
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  Speaker 3: tell our patients what to do, right? We kind of
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  Speaker 3: help them to come to a decision as to what
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  Speaker 3: they want to do, right? So a lot of times,
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  Speaker 3: you know, therapists or patients will say to you, so
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  Speaker 3: what should I do? What should I do? Tell me
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  Speaker 3: what to do. Their anxiety. And then if you don't
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  Speaker 3: understand that and your own countertransference, you will get overwhelmed
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  Speaker 3: by their anxiety. And you'll have this instinct to say, okay,
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  Speaker 3: I'm going to tell them what to do. It'll be
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  Speaker 3: all neat, tied up in a bow, and then they
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  Speaker 3: could go home happy and that'll be the end of it.
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  Speaker 3: but that's not helping them, right? So you want them to,
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  Speaker 3: you want to sit with them in a very, you know,
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  Speaker 3: we want to talk about the authenticity of the space,
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  Speaker 3: the honesty of the space. I often ask, not often,
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  Speaker 3: I always ask patients at the end of the first session.
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  Speaker 3: So when I get to meet them, I'll do history,
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  Speaker 3: the first session, whatever. And at the end of the
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  Speaker 3: first session, I'll say to them, okay, so how do
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  Speaker 3: you feel about me? You have any questions? Like, how
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  Speaker 3: do you feel about sitting with me in this room?
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  Speaker 3: And because everybody, The minute, you know, we talk about
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  Speaker 3: the anonymity of the analyst, the anonymity of the therapist,
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  Speaker 3: there's anonymity in terms of you don't necessarily self-disclose personal
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  Speaker 3: things about your life. But the minute the phone call
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  Speaker 3: is made and they hear your voice, the minute you
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  Speaker 3: walk into their office and your office and they see
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  Speaker 3: how you decorated the office, how you dress, how, you know,
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  Speaker 3: the type of clothes you wear. So some of that
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  Speaker 3: anonymity kind of melts away, but you still want to
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  Speaker 3: get a sense from them what it's like for them
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  Speaker 3: to sit with me in the room. And then I
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  Speaker 3: could sit with, tell them, you know, in some sort
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  Speaker 3: of mutual way, what it's like um, to be with
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  Speaker 3: them in the room. And, you know, a lot of
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  Speaker 3: times after two, three sessions, if I don't feel that
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  Speaker 3: that's a quote unquote, good fit, you know, I want,
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  Speaker 3: you want the therapy to be a good fit because.
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  Speaker 2: If it's not, we talk about that for a minute.
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  Speaker 2: Cause one thing I love that you're saying is like,
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  Speaker 2: we can have boundaries, but there's something about like it's
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  Speaker 2: practical verbal information boundaries, but then there's almost like this
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  Speaker 2: energetic connection or relational dynamic that's beginning from the voice,
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  Speaker 2: from a conversation, from what you are and saying, and
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  Speaker 2: you're saying like, it's almost like the softening of the walls,
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  Speaker 2: just like they're getting to know you, you're getting to
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  Speaker 2: know them or you see how they do or don't
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  Speaker 2: allow you in, right. Or kind of might come in
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  Speaker 2: very defensive or challenging, which starts giving you a little
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  Speaker 2: snippets of how they've had to orient around the world. Um,
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  Speaker 2: But when you just said that piece about a good fit,
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  Speaker 2: like what would you say, let's say to a young
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  Speaker 2: therapist or a therapist who's been in the field for
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: a while, like what would you say are the characteristics
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  Speaker 2: that allow you as a therapist to know, hey, I
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  Speaker 2: think this might be a good fit? Just curious what you're... So.
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  Speaker 3: In terms of, I'll talk about psychoanalytic work or psychodynamic work. Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: So the three most important aspects of working analytically, not dynamically,
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  Speaker 3: like really analytically on the couch three to five times
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  Speaker 3: a week Very intensely. So, you know, there are many,
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  Speaker 3: many people could go into analysis and obviously that kind
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  Speaker 3: of you, you know, you kind of come into analysis
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  Speaker 3: and then obviously you see if it's a good fit
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  Speaker 3: between the analyst and the patients. However, I call them patients,
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  Speaker 3: by the way. However, the three very important aspects of
• 11:29
  Speaker 3: good work in psychoanalysis is the person needs to be verbally, verbal.
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  Speaker 3: They need to be able to talk. Right. When a
• 11:36
  Speaker 3: person comes in and can't talk, we could talk about
• 11:38
  Speaker 3: that because you could do analytic work, and I can
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  Speaker 3: give you some form of example on that. Verbal, intelligent,
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  Speaker 3: they need to be able to develop insight and the
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  Speaker 3: capacity for self-reflection. So there are some people who they
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: can develop it, and then they can be a candidate.
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  Speaker 3: But in the beginning, you could see by being with
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  Speaker 3: someone three, four sessions, besides the fact that they're verbal
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  Speaker 3: or not, because that you could develop as well, intelligent
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  Speaker 3: or not, you could develop all these things, but you
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  Speaker 3: need to be able to see it. Yes, I think
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  Speaker 3: this person will be able to develop their expressive skills
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  Speaker 3: and they will be able to develop a capacity for self-reflection.
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  Speaker 3: Sometimes that takes days, weeks, months, years. And that's why
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  Speaker 3: not everybody is fit for psychodynamic psychotherapy because sometimes that
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  Speaker 3: can happen, but it might take a while. And sometimes
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  Speaker 3: people walk in They're very verbal. They're very self-reflective. And
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  Speaker 3: they're very insightful. And they have the capacity for insight.
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  Speaker 3: And therefore, they will be able to take in what
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  Speaker 3: you're giving them and take in the interpretations. And just
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  Speaker 3: a little note on interpretations. I'm doing this very quickly.
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  Speaker 3: Timing is everything. When you're interpreting to a patient, timing
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  Speaker 3: is everything. Meaning if I think I'm so smart and
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  Speaker 3: I know a person walks in and 10 minutes later,
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: 20 minutes later, I've got this person all figured out
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  Speaker 3: because I'm experienced, blah, blah, blah. If you're going to say, well,
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  Speaker 3: the reason you're like this is that you have just
• 13:08
  Speaker 3: lost your patient. Because they're going to look at you
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  Speaker 3: and say, what? What are you talking about? Because if
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  Speaker 3: they're not at a level, unconscious, pre-conscious, conscious, if they're
• 13:18
  Speaker 3: not at a level to take in the interpretation you're
• 13:21
  Speaker 3: giving them, then it will just fall on flat ears.
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  Speaker 3: So the timing of an interpretation when you're doing psychodynamic
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  Speaker 3: psychotherapy is is very, very, very important. Now, I know
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  Speaker 3: that when you do somatic, or do you do IFS,
• 13:35
  Speaker 3: or you do somatic?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I, wait, hold on one second, because you're going
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  Speaker 2: to go and talk about, like, somatic.
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  Speaker 3: No, I'm not going to talk about that. I'm just
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  Speaker 3: comparing and contrasting, comparing and contrasting the way you do,
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  Speaker 3: because I don't know if those are the qualities that
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  Speaker 3: you would say are necessary for somatic, you know, because
• 13:51
  Speaker 3: you have to, see, for somebody who's sensory, motor, and somatic,
• 13:55
  Speaker 3: because it's bottom-up versus top-down, right? You have to be
• 13:59
  Speaker 3: able to have the capacity to be in tune with
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  Speaker 3: your body. Now, some people are both. They could be
• 14:05
  Speaker 3: in tune with their body and they could be in
• 14:07
  Speaker 3: tune with their minds and you could go up and
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: it could go here. It's all good. Some people get
• 14:13
  Speaker 3: stuck here. Some people get stuck here. Right. Right. The
• 14:17
  Speaker 3: whole goal is low. You know, I would love it
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  Speaker 3: if my very cognitive intellectual, uh, you know, insightful patients
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  Speaker 3: would be, I have some patients who are brilliant and
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  Speaker 3: we do really well in psychodynamic psychotherapy. And then when
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: I want to do some just meditations, you know, hand
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  Speaker 3: on heart, hand on tummy, like simple, simple things to
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  Speaker 3: calm them down and to ground them. No, no, no, no, no, no.
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  Speaker 3: I don't do that. They don't want to get into
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  Speaker 3: their bodies, which we know at this point in the
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: literature and in the research is very, very important to
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: be able to get into. That's one of the reasons
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  Speaker 3: I studied besides my psychoanalytic training, which was 10 years
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: of psychoanalytic training, I studied two years for sensory motor
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: and some years for somatic. Why? Because I felt that
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: these are important things to understand and to know. Yeah,
• 15:05
  Speaker 3: I remember you.
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: Talking about that. But one thing I want to say,
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: just because I want to come back, because we're talking
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: about the concept of basically clients coming in with basically
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: the concept of attachment, right? Like mother-child dynamics. Parent-child. I
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: love the research article, like Ghosts in the Nursery, how basically,
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: remember there was this child from, what was her last name?
• 15:26
  Speaker 3: Friedenberg?
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: We did the research on like how the baby was
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: shrieking and they didn't know why. And then basically the
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: mom had this like untreated trauma and like postpartum depression.
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: And as a mom was able to like face her
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: own ghosts or her own emotional demons. and mental demons
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: and soften that inside, she had much more capacity to
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: hold herself and to be able to be present with
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: her child's shrieks. And as she regulated or was able
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: to hold her own internal shrieks or pain or demons,
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: so to speak, Her child was able to settle. So
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: that whole concept of mirror neurons, which I think is
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: related to kind of right how we co-regulate like one
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  Speaker 2: with the other, which is really the foundational piece of
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: what therapy is, is like if a client comes into
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: our room, essentially they're struggling either in their own minds
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: or bodies, like you said, or with others, usually in
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: both areas, but at least in one.
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: Right.
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  Speaker 2: Right. How they feel about themselves, others and.
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: About what is a reflection of the other. Right.
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: And so essentially what you're talking about, like when you're
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: talking about someone who has this brilliant aha moment, I
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: definitely remember being that kind of therapist at times or
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: I've seen therapists like that. But there's almost this piece
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: sometimes where it's like if a part of you was
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: so excited that you have this brilliant revelation or awareness.
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: And your client is sitting there and maybe is in
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: denial or maybe has a lot of aspects of them
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: that are guarded or disconnected from reality because they need
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: that to cope. You're not in a competition here. Like,
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: who are you trying to prove that like, bam, I
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: got this so right. I knew it. It was your mother. Right.
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: And it's like, seriously, you're taking my fragile world. Right.
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: And you're shaking it up. And I'm literally coming in.
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: You're just seeing. And there are if I can actually
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: just exist in the room with you. And I think, Hendi,
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: you're talking about something very profound because.
• 17:09
  Speaker 3: That's why the timing is everything. Yes. Show how brilliant
• 17:13
  Speaker 3: you are because you, oh my God, I know why
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: this is happening. I know why this is happening. And
• 17:17
  Speaker 3: then you share with the patient when the patient is
• 17:20
  Speaker 3: not at the capacity, not ready in the course of
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: the treatments even to hear it and to really internalize it.
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: They have to be able to internalize what you're telling
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: them because that's the only way that it will really
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: sink in And then they will feel, I always say
• 17:36
  Speaker 3: to patients, I know you understand me up here. Do
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: you understand me over here? I always say, do you
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: understand me over here? I know you understand me over here,
• 17:47
  Speaker 3: but you have to go from here to here. And
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: then they'll have their like a little aha moment. And,
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: you know, talk about, you know, when you talk about
• 17:57
  Speaker 3: these articles, you know, goes to the nursery, there was
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: a very famous analyst, a very famous French analyst by
• 18:03
  Speaker 3: the name of Andre Green. He wrote On Psychic Madness.
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: I think it's called On Psychic Madness. And one of
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: the chapters in that book is called The Dead Mother.
• 18:15
  Speaker 3: And it talks about a mother who's not actually dead, obviously,
• 18:19
  Speaker 3: but who during the course of the early infant attachment
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: or maybe during the course of pregnancy and so on
• 18:25
  Speaker 3: was somehow traumatized. either a loss of a loved one
• 18:29
  Speaker 3: that happened to the mom or some sort of tragedy
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: or some sort of trauma that occurred with the mom
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: so that when the baby is born, she is not
• 18:36
  Speaker 3: able to properly attach to her baby. And the baby
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: grows up with a quote-unquote dead mother. And what does
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: that look like in the consultation room years later when
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: the person comes in for therapy? And that's where the
• 18:49
  Speaker 3: whole transference, the transferential mother and so on is repaired
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: through the psychotherapy process. of what they never got from
• 18:58
  Speaker 3: their quote-unquote dead mother. So it's a very, very powerful
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: chapter if anyone has a moment to read that.
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: Maybe we'll link it up to the show notes because
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: I think exactly what you were just saying, like timing,
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: what you're essentially talking about is the micro moments, right? Attachment,
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: if there's the dead mother, right? Or if there's the
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: mother or the father or the caregiver that is traumatized.
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: You see a lot of this, by the way, in
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: Holocaust trauma where you'll often talk to people in our
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: generation who were raised by Holocaust mothers, right? mothers who
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: survived the Holocaust. So you'll, I don't know if everybody
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: will get that, will admit, oh yeah, my mother was
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: a quote unquote dead mother. But some of us do,
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: are able to see that as much as our mothers
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: were wonderful mothers and they tried so hard because of
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: their traumas, they were not able to engage and attune, right?
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: Before attachments, attunement, remember?
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: Right, that's what you're talking about, timing. That's all about
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: these micro moments of either attunement or misattunement, right? Exactly.
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: And so if you were to talk about, so we're
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: talking about the therapist having conscious awareness of, I actually
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: need to connect to the client's experience. Developing essentially for
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: the therapist is like developing enough of a security or
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: an inner equilibrium inside so that they can hold space
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: for their client's experience. So whatever the client is needing
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: to bring in, your client might not be able to
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: have awareness about realities in their life, like you said,
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: for two sessions, two months, two years, or a longer
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: time than that. And it's not, now obviously there is,
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: they always say we could go too quick or too slowly.
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: Like we're not leaning back and not doing any work,
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: but we're not overbearing. To answer your somatic question, by
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: the way, I think, I know from my experience, because right,
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: I've done a lot of the trainings like with EMDR
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: and sensory motor and IFS. I think At the end
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: of the day, like a lot of the therapy.
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: What's your favorite, by the way?
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 20:54
  Speaker 3: What's your favorite from IFS? Oh, my favorite? Sensory motor, IFS, EMDR.
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: I think my favorite is sensory motor. I think sensory motor,
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: but I'll tell you what, like it's a little tricky
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: to say what's... I just find I love IFS, but
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: I don't love the concept of IFS that... And I'm
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: just pulling one of like the self-healing itself because we
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: need each other to heal, right? So I just feel
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: like when people say like, can you notice, could you
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: feel compassion to yourself? But like, what if there's interphobic avoidance?
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: What if people can't stand themselves? What if they don't
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: have a nurturing inner voice? So I think the somatic
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: or the attachment oriented, maybe for you from a psychoanalytic lens,
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: I think it lends a little bit more compassion or
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: okayness and validation of like, hello, we need each other.
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: And you could note there's more of the use of
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: the self of the therapist as like, um, as like
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: a stand-in figure in terms of filling in those emotional
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: attachment needs, not in a codependent way, but in like a,
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: I want you to be able to settle here so
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: that you can actually replicate these relationships outside in life, right?
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: Not that I'm becoming your- Exactly.
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: I'll say that to patients, by the way, Esther. I'll
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: say what goes on in you, when I try to
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: explain to them what transference is, I'll say what goes
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: on in here goes on out there. So if you're
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: experiencing something with me, because if they're saying they're upset,
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: they're angry, they're this or that, no problem. But I
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: try to explain to them that that could be transferential.
• 22:16
  Speaker 3: And what is it like out there in their other relationships?
• 22:20
  Speaker 3: What are their other relationships like? And a very major thing,
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: and I think we see this in all of the therapies,
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: is the concept of rupture and repair, which mimics life, right?
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: Can you define what rupture and then can you define
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: what repair?
• 22:38
  Speaker 3: So if there is a rupture in the relationship, so
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: in the outside world, so to speak, not the therapeutic world,
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: you have a very, very close relationship with a friend,
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: a parent, a husband, a lover, somebody you have a
• 22:51
  Speaker 3: very close relationship with. And something happens in that relationship.
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: There is some sort of a rupture. Is it a fight?
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: Is it a disagreement? Is it upset, embarrassment, whatever happens?
• 23:01
  Speaker 3: And there is a rupture. in the relationship. So now
• 23:04
  Speaker 3: they are in a sense, psychically like separated. Right. Now
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: the question is, yeah, they're like, they're not together. They
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: don't have to be merged. We don't want.
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: It's not like in sync. They're kind of like out
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: of like disconnect or like we're upset. Yeah.
• 23:20
  Speaker 3: Right. So now, so now what do you want? Do
• 23:25
  Speaker 3: you want that relationship to be repaired? Do you want
• 23:28
  Speaker 3: to go back to that relationship and repair it and
• 23:31
  Speaker 3: even have it better than ever and more so? Or
• 23:34
  Speaker 3: do you want to say, you know what? I've had enough.
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: I'm out of here. I'm finished. And this happens very often.
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: Not very often, but it can happen in therapy where
• 23:43
  Speaker 3: you're in a very good, solid therapeutic relationship and something
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: happens where the patient gets upset. They get upset with you.
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: So what's going to happen? Rule number one, never get defensive.
• 23:56
  Speaker 3: I tell this to therapists all the time. Don't get defensive.
• 23:59
  Speaker 3: Listen to them. You know, they might be criticizing you
• 24:05
  Speaker 3: and they may be right.
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 24:07
  Speaker 3: Listen to them. Don't get defensive. Don't get defensive. And
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: then tell them, you know, look at it as a rupture.
• 24:15
  Speaker 3: Look at it as a rupture in the maternal relationship, right?
• 24:17
  Speaker 3: Baby's screaming. How do they get back together with mommy?
• 24:22
  Speaker 3: So there could be a rupture, but then we have
• 24:25
  Speaker 3: a beautiful repair where you either talk it through, depending
• 24:29
  Speaker 3: on the developmental stage, a mother and a baby or whatever,
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: but you could talk it. But in therapy, where there's
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: talking involved, we discuss it and we talk about what
• 24:41
  Speaker 3: that rupture was about, what that rupture reminded them of.
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: You know, you're just like the way my mother was
• 24:48
  Speaker 3: when she was angry at me because of blah, blah, blah.
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: So then you kind of reconcile that rupture, not only
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: within your internal interpersonal psychotherapeutic relationship, but hopefully we'll have
• 25:02
  Speaker 3: some sort of healing in the genetic relationship and the
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: relationship that you're trying to heal outside. Yeah.
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: Cause it's almost like, um, right. It's almost like the capacity.
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: I remember having a client who was very, I always
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: say in the beginning when people think, and you probably
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: see this as well, people think very great things about us.
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: Everyone has opinions about us as therapists. It's like, we're
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: just going to have things put at us.
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: But like, People can say, oh, you did such amazing
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: things with my friend, my family member. And, like, to me,
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: I say, like, the time that I know we have
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: a real relationship is when you get upset with me.
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: And when you get upset with me and you tell
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: me about it. Because the one thing I want.
• 25:38
  Speaker 3: I just want to throw this in before you continue.
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: I forget the name of the analyst who said. How
• 25:44
  Speaker 3: did he say it? Never trust an analysis that's going well. Hmm.
• 25:54
  Speaker 3: They all love you, you know, flight into hell. Yeah. Okay,
• 25:57
  Speaker 3: go on.
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry.
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: It's like the couples who never fight. It's like the
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: couples who never fight have like the least emotional intimacy
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: because they're so busy like tiptoeing and avoiding around each other, right?
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: It's like you're in the honeymoon, but non-actual intimate phase ever, right?
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: And you're kind of- I was saying you were saying something.
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: I'm sorry to interrupt.
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: No, I love that you said that. So I think
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: there's something where it's like, Like, you know, when you
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: get upset, like I might step on your toe, obviously figuratively.
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: And maybe it's because I did something wrong. And maybe
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: it's because what I said landed in a really painful
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: spot and I'm not aware. And if I am aware,
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: I might say like, wow, I just said that. I
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: wonder how it landed. I might not realize or I
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: might realize. Please just at least let's make this commitment
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: to each other that we're at least going to have
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: a conversation about it and try to repair it or
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: speak about it. Because I'm like, that means that we're
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: doing real work. I have this in all my adult relationships.
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: If I've never had a disagreement, some kind of argument.
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: It's not a real relationship. Every one of my close relationships,
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: you know this, right? Especially long-term relationships. Like you have
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: this dynamic, the parenting, it's like, I don't understand you,
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: but I want to understand you. I connect with you.
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: I feel at a loss. I'm coming back. So I
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: think with clients, sometimes when they say you're so incredible,
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: they think so highly, but then there's a capacity to
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: get angry or then, and then to face whatever the
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: fear is. I'm thinking about like, right. And then there's
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: this terror. Yeah.
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: Very scared. And I said, I can see how scared
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: you are. I am so happy you're bringing up this
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: anger or this disappointment. And for letting me see and
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: letting us see if we can work this through, I
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: really think that we can.
• 27:25
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: But like, it's up to you, whatever you choose. Anyway,
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: a couple months later, this person brought up a frustration
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: in a relationship that was going on for years that
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: naturally brought this person a ton of body anxiety and anger.
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: And it was like, if you have the capacity to
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: tolerate the anger, like that client did with me, he
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: realized he can actually share with another person and see
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: how he could tolerate his own discomfort in that relationship.
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: And that relationship became so much better. Now, here's the
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: other piece. What he realized is if I could do
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: it with Esther, either I could repair it and it
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: could be okay, or are these relationships, which we tell clients,
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: but they might not be ready, as we get healthier
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: and we actually allow more emotionality in relationships to realize,
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: I'm not going to run away from you. You don't
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: have to run away from me. We actually could tolerate
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: this discomfort and we're going to figure it out together.
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: What they realize is as they get clear about their
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: needs and either in a way that's actually more communicative
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: and not pushing people away or pulling away, People in
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: their life will either level up, which means meet them
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: with more emotions or be curious and lean in, or
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: they might self-select out. And sometimes when clients engage in
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: therapy with me, they get a little scared because they're like,
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: I'm starting to notice some patterns and you're challenging me
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: to become a little healthier or to be so honest
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: with you, obviously in a way that's slow and paced.
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: But I'm scared if I bring this honesty to other relationships,
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: how many people are going to stick around? How many
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: people are going to leave? So I just I'm just
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: putting this out there because obviously it's not black or white.
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: But I think there's some very real shifts that happen,
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: like as almost like a ripple effect, which is the beauty.
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: And there could also be some real concerns that if
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: a client is more honest with us, with you. Right.
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: Then it starts making them look at like, wait, I
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: have this relationship. I never actually really shared what was
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: on my mind.
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: So even being mindful.
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: And you're saying that they take they take a risk.
• 29:10
  Speaker 3: of what happens if they bring that with up with
• 29:13
  Speaker 3: some sort of significant relationship and the other person can't
• 29:16
  Speaker 3: handle it the way we therapists can handle it.
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: Yes. So sometimes I'm just saying this as like the
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: next step, sometimes there's a layer of grief in terms
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: of like, wow, I never had this. And it's not
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: just like, wow, suddenly like, yes, there's often more capacity
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: to bring more of themselves than they are more strong
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: or able to tolerate. Like this person didn't know that
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: he could tolerate conflict because of whatever his template was.
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: Okay. But I think there's something also like that I
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: want to say is that sometimes as we do therapy,
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: you know, we always say there's like this risks and benefits.
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: Sometimes the risks is people might realize like, well, I'm
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: in a relationship that has not as much intimacy capacity
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: right now. I wonder how much capacity it does or
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: doesn't have. And I think just us holding like that,
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: the therapeutic relationship can be really profound and healing and
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: also part of healing and bringing a little bit more
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: conscious awareness could also bring up uncomfortable feelings. That doesn't
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: mean they need to run or act impulsively back to making,
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: giving advice. We don't tell them what to do about
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: their relationships, right? We help them.
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: If they bring you that dilemma, they bring that dilemma
• 30:20
  Speaker 3: and they say, you know, I'm, this has been so
• 30:22
  Speaker 3: healing for me to know the authenticity of this relationship
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: allows me to be so authentic and real. And I
• 30:28
  Speaker 3: can really share with you the way I really feel.
• 30:30
  Speaker 3: And I don't know if I could do that in
• 30:32
  Speaker 3: other relationships. What happens if I try that on my
• 30:35
  Speaker 3: boyfriend and it backfires? Like, what's right? Do I break
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: up with my boyfriend? So everything gets slowed down. We're
• 30:43
  Speaker 3: going to slow it down, slow it down. You know,
• 30:46
  Speaker 3: we're not going to jump to conclusions just because the
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: person's going to think, oh, I'll never be able to
• 30:50
  Speaker 3: achieve this in the outside. You might or you might not,
• 30:54
  Speaker 3: but that's not the point. The point is that we're
• 30:56
  Speaker 3: going to kind of Slow and steady, like it's a journey.
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: It's real, you know, sometimes the word journey is a
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: little bit cliche, but a real journey of allowing them
• 31:06
  Speaker 3: to see maybe it could work. And maybe they discovered
• 31:10
  Speaker 3: that this wasn't a good relationship for them after all
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: these years after all, you know.
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And I think the powerful thing that you do
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: say about journey, like when clients jump, I often say,
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: I think I said this to you once, but I
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: remember reading a quote somewhere that said, like, when people
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: are in relationships or when people take a job or
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: when people like, you know, step into something new, it's
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: less the matter that you trust the other person. It's
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: much more a matter that you trust yourself, that you
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: will take care of yourself while you were figure a
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: way through with whatever life finds lands up in your lap.
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: And sometimes when I tell clients, as we engage in healing,
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: my goal is to help you feel secure in this
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: space and slowly start developing more self-trust And find more
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: resources or cultivate some kind of community, whatever it is
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: for them. So regardless of the terrains that life will
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: bring you, and we both know obviously personally and professionally,
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: like life has a way of throwing you dodgeballs and
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: then another one. There's times of plateau and there's times
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: of climbing. I always say there's times that we're in
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: years of just climbing. We're in survival or we're struggling
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: or we're navigating or we're in places of disconnect. So
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: we're kind of in mountain climbing, right? We can't wear heels.
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: We have to put on like big boots and just
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: like in gear and our knapsacks. And I'm like, ah,
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: don't bother me. I'm busy. And there's other times where
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: things could settle and soften and we're more in plateau, right?
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: And I have clients who are like in a plateau
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: phase and all of a sudden they have their trauma
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: symptoms or anxiety. It's because for the first time, sometimes
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: they're able to do healing. Or we have clients who
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: are always in this mountain climbing phase, either because life
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: has been that way or because they don't actually know
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: what it's like to not be that way. Like I've
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: had clients whose lives are steady, but all they know
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: how to do is be in survival. Right. But back
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: to what you said, I think like some of the
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: things that almost help calm clients, I think, is, you know,
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: we can slow things down and you can like our
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: goal is for you to evolve and you to become
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: more steady. Because back to the attachment piece that people
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: feel more secure in themselves. There's much more emotional capacity
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: to just exist as a person. And that alone, I think,
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: is expansive.
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: It's not that we don't feel pain. It's we have
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: more capacity to tolerate pain.
• 33:10
  Speaker 3: Tolerate pain. Yes, I understand that. I totally agree with that.
• 33:15
  Speaker 3: I want to make also a comment about silence.
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, go on.
• 33:20
  Speaker 3: Because a lot of times therapists have a hard time
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: when the patient is silent. And, you know, they can,
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: how long am I going to sit in the room
• 33:31
  Speaker 3: now with this patient? They're not saying a word. What
• 33:33
  Speaker 3: am I going to do? So in the beginning, I
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: think as new therapists, but as you get more experienced,
• 33:39
  Speaker 3: you become more comfortable, I think, with the concept of
• 33:43
  Speaker 3: silence is, there's a lot of meaning in silence. Whatever
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: that meaning is to the person, we don't know. Silence
• 33:49
  Speaker 3: to you may be different than silence to me, to
• 33:51
  Speaker 3: that patient, to this one, to that one. But I
• 33:54
  Speaker 3: think that what happens is, talk about countertransference, the anxiety
• 33:59
  Speaker 3: of the therapist kicks in. When the patient is silent, like, okay,
• 34:02
  Speaker 3: what am I doing with this patient? Now they're sitting
• 34:04
  Speaker 3: here and they're not saying a word. So should I
• 34:07
  Speaker 3: ask them questions? Should I jump right in? Should I,
• 34:10
  Speaker 3: you know, tell them to talk? How do I engage them?
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: How do I get them to talk? And sometimes you can,
• 34:16
  Speaker 3: you know, do a little encouraging type of, you know,
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: I'd like to know what you're thinking. Like, what are
• 34:22
  Speaker 3: you thinking? And things of that nature. So you try
• 34:24
  Speaker 3: to engage them. And sometimes when you realize that that
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: doesn't work, you just sit with them. That's like your
• 34:30
  Speaker 3: authentic presence with them connecting unconsciously, I would say, and
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: just allow them to be silent because they may need that.
• 34:39
  Speaker 3: That might be their mode of nurturance from you, that
• 34:44
  Speaker 3: silence that they're just getting, that you're able to tolerate
• 34:47
  Speaker 3: that and sit with them, even though other people would
• 34:50
  Speaker 3: be bombarding, talk, talk, ask them questions, and you're just
• 34:54
  Speaker 3: sitting with them. I had this, I treated somebody for
• 34:57
  Speaker 3: over two years, two and a half years, I'm not
• 35:01
  Speaker 3: going to go into the details, but the very, the
• 35:03
  Speaker 3: first full year of treatment, they were silent. They didn't
• 35:07
  Speaker 3: say one word.
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: How did you tell us? Tell us like, how was
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: it for you?
• 35:11
  Speaker 3: Cause I, I think it was in the beginning. I
• 35:13
  Speaker 3: was like, Oh my God, what am I doing? You know,
• 35:15
  Speaker 3: what am I doing? What am I doing wrong? How
• 35:18
  Speaker 3: do I engage this person? And they would be, they
• 35:21
  Speaker 3: would just sit there. And of course, in the beginning
• 35:22
  Speaker 3: I asked questions and what are you thinking? And once
• 35:25
  Speaker 3: I saw that they're just not, responding. I just sat
• 35:28
  Speaker 3: with them session after session, after session.
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: They kept coming back.
• 35:33
  Speaker 3: They kept coming back for their session. We kept you stomping,
• 35:37
  Speaker 3: you know, stomping out of the session, huffing and puffing,
• 35:39
  Speaker 3: but silent. They wouldn't talk. They were very belligerent. And
• 35:42
  Speaker 3: then at the end, when they ultimately started talking after
• 35:45
  Speaker 3: a year and was, you know, we ultimately after a
• 35:49
  Speaker 3: while ended a very successful thing called treatments. The person
• 35:54
  Speaker 3: said to me that the most healing part of of
• 35:57
  Speaker 3: the therapy was that I allowed her to be silent
• 36:01
  Speaker 3: for so long. I didn't bother her. I just let
• 36:04
  Speaker 3: her sit there and be silent. And we always joke
• 36:07
  Speaker 3: about it now because I have kept in touch with
• 36:08
  Speaker 3: her over the years. That, you know, I let her
• 36:11
  Speaker 3: be silent. And I didn't, like, I didn't bother her.
• 36:14
  Speaker 3: I tried in the beginning because I thought, okay, I'm
• 36:17
  Speaker 3: not a good therapist because I'm not getting this person
• 36:19
  Speaker 3: to talk. What am I doing? And then afterwards when
• 36:21
  Speaker 3: I realized that, you know what, maybe they need this.
• 36:24
  Speaker 3: Maybe they need to be in a place where they're
• 36:26
  Speaker 3: not being hounded with questions or directives or instructions or recommendations,
• 36:32
  Speaker 3: just be with this person. And it may not work
• 36:37
  Speaker 3: for every person. That's why you have to use your
• 36:39
  Speaker 3: unconscious vibes to know when you could use this and
• 36:41
  Speaker 3: when you shouldn't, when you should maybe be a little
• 36:43
  Speaker 3: bit more pushy, but it worked with this person and
• 36:46
  Speaker 3: it was very healing. When you talk about healing, it
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: was very, very healing. So we have to know how,
• 36:53
  Speaker 3: we have to, and there are articles written on silence,
• 36:57
  Speaker 3: I don't know when the other literature, but certainly in
• 36:59
  Speaker 3: the psychoanalytic literature, there's articles listed. There's there's papers that
• 37:02
  Speaker 3: are written on silence. I can't list any of them offhand. But,
• 37:07
  Speaker 3: you know, if you go.
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: Into something very powerful about at the end of the day,
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: we want people to live. We want to do life
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: with each other or we don't want to do life
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: with each other. But that that's as a story in itself.
• 37:18
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: If we don't want to do life with other people
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: or how much we want to do, let's do what
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: we want to do. so much with people because we
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: feel like we don't exist if we're not with people,
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: but there's something about being with, you know, how like
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: they talk a lot about in healing is sometimes there's
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: a inner child state or a past experience state or
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: an emotional sense or a belief that's stuck in the past. And,
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: trauma or big emotions or feeling alone. And one of
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: the biggest things they say in therapy is not just
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: like dive in, try to heal or save that part.
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: It's like, could you actually just make contact and just
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: get to know that.
• 37:48
  Speaker 3: Part of you?
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: So we're just like, just, just be with me. Like
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: so many of the times, right. Slowing down. And it's like,
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: can we just be with that 11 year old? Or
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: so that's kind of like the slowly and people are like,
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: what do I do next? I'm like, can you be present?
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: Can you even see if she can notice that you
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: exist or that the therapist exists or notice like, right.
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: So even just slowly, like the being, so I'm the nonverbal,
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: what I'm hearing for you is that when you settled in,
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: there was such a holding space.
• 38:14
  Speaker 3: Of the holding space. I was a total container. I just, right.
• 38:21
  Speaker 3: And it was very, you know, ultimately I, I realized, um,
• 38:26
  Speaker 3: like don't fight city hall. Yeah. Just be with them.
• 38:30
  Speaker 3: Just sit with them. It reminds me also of a wonderful, uh, analyst, um, Freudian,
• 38:37
  Speaker 3: contemporary of Freud's, I think, Theodor Reich, R-E-I-K, Theodor, Listening
• 38:42
  Speaker 3: with the Third Ear, a wonderful, wonderful little book, Listening
• 38:46
  Speaker 3: with the Third Ear. And he talks a lot about,
• 38:50
  Speaker 3: you know, how to listen with your third ear, not
• 38:52
  Speaker 3: just for your one ear, two ears, but with the,
• 38:55
  Speaker 3: you know, listening for the unconscious material and so on,
• 38:57
  Speaker 3: listen to what they say, what they don't say, and
• 38:59
  Speaker 3: so on and so forth. But he has a chapter
• 39:01
  Speaker 3: in there called The Surprised Analyst. And his premise is
• 39:05
  Speaker 3: that when you're sitting with a patient, You should constantly
• 39:07
  Speaker 3: be in almost like a state of surprise. Like, don't
• 39:10
  Speaker 3: think you know everything. Right. You know, like you're as
• 39:13
  Speaker 3: surprised as they are with the revelations that they're making.
• 39:17
  Speaker 3: Because if you think you know everything, then I forget
• 39:20
  Speaker 3: how he phrases it. I have the book here somewhere.
• 39:23
  Speaker 3: I forget how he phrases it. But he says, if
• 39:25
  Speaker 3: you're going to be the kind of analyst who constantly
• 39:28
  Speaker 3: knows all the formula, you know, very formulaic. I learned
• 39:30
  Speaker 3: this and this theory and that theory, and you know everything,
• 39:34
  Speaker 3: then you will basically just be a bundle, a jumble
• 39:36
  Speaker 3: of formulas. He said, but you have to develop yourself.
• 39:40
  Speaker 3: That's why I always say to the therapists who are developing,
• 39:44
  Speaker 3: learn everything that you love. Pick the modality that you love.
• 39:48
  Speaker 3: You like psychoanalysis, you like IFS, EMDR. It doesn't make
• 39:51
  Speaker 3: a difference. I would tell my therapist at TICFA, at
• 39:54
  Speaker 3: the clinic, I would tell them, you know, they would
• 39:57
  Speaker 3: come to me for psychoanalytic supervision, but I would say
• 39:59
  Speaker 3: to them, you don't have to be an analyst. Do
• 40:01
  Speaker 3: whatever you want. Just do whatever you want and study
• 40:03
  Speaker 3: that thing and get immersed in that thing and that modality.
• 40:08
  Speaker 3: And you develop your sense of self because you are
• 40:13
  Speaker 3: the instrument. I always give this webinar called developing a
• 40:17
  Speaker 3: fine-tuned instrument, how the development of the self helps create
• 40:22
  Speaker 3: a multifaceted therapeutic experience. You are the instrument. You as
• 40:27
  Speaker 3: a therapist.
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: What would you say?
• 40:28
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: It's like you're the vessel and then like, right, you're
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: not the vessel.
• 40:31
  Speaker 3: And he said at the end, at the end of
• 40:33
  Speaker 3: the day, he says, he wrote, to thine own self
• 40:36
  Speaker 3: be true. You develop who you are as a therapist.
• 40:40
  Speaker 3: And don't think that you have to take every single
• 40:42
  Speaker 3: formula that we all tell them to do.
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: But isn't that why we are on a journey, like
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: just to circle back before we wrap up in a
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: few minutes, isn't that why essentially therapists go on this
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: journey to really find ourselves, to find our own wholesomeness,
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: to find our own healing, to find our own joy,
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: to find our own hope for ourselves, for our loved ones,
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: because we have capacity. Either we've had some kind of
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: caregiving where we've had to care for ourselves, nurture ourselves,
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: nurture someone else. We are very empathetic. Whatever the reasonings
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: were or are, there's.
• 41:11
  Speaker 3: Something- You have to think of what is into this field.
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: Right, right. So I think when you're saying this, like,
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: it's like the self of the therapist to me, like,
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: I just know for myself, I was always like, I
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: want to help. I want to help. I want to help.
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: And the real healing and shifts happen are becoming a
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: healing vessel. And I don't think it's an overnight thing.
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: I think there's different skills and different strengths and weaknesses
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: and humility comes along with lived experience. But. I think
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: there's something about like, as we really look at ourselves
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: in the mirror, you speak about the third ear. I
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: think it's like, as we almost like cultivate more of
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: self and self and go in our own inner journey, right?
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: Yoloma always says, you can only take your client as
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: far as you've traveled. I almost feel like it's coming
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: back home to circle where it's like, essentially you're on
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: a journey for wholesome with yourself. Your clients are lucky
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: that you journey with them, but you're just as lucky.
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: Like I feel like clients have taught me such profound
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: things about life, right? They're giving us the gift. I
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: wonder if there's like anything specific before we hop off,
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: if there's like any young therapist, any questions for them
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: to reflect on, like, or things that you think would
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: be really important for them as they're developing, what would
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: you say to deepen? Yeah.
• 42:20
  Speaker 3: I think that when you, if you want to develop
• 42:21
  Speaker 3: your authentic self as a therapist and as a person,
• 42:25
  Speaker 3: but really as a person so that you could be
• 42:28
  Speaker 3: an authentic therapist. Yeah. So really like, almost simplistic, profound
• 42:34
  Speaker 3: questions like, who am I? Like, why am I, like,
• 42:39
  Speaker 3: what is my mission in life? Or why do I
• 42:41
  Speaker 3: want to do this work? And what do I aim
• 42:43
  Speaker 3: at doing? Is it for me that, you know, that
• 42:46
  Speaker 3: I want to say, oh, I'm a healer? Or is
• 42:48
  Speaker 3: it coming from that true sense of not, yes, I
• 42:53
  Speaker 3: want to be a healer, but I want to truly
• 42:56
  Speaker 3: help other people. What about this work makes it so
• 43:01
  Speaker 3: important to to us what about our backgrounds our histories
• 43:08
  Speaker 3: have an impact on why we do the work we
• 43:11
  Speaker 3: do have we are we trying to repair ourselves our
• 43:15
  Speaker 3: traumas our pasts and can we through good um our
• 43:21
  Speaker 3: own good analysis and our own good supervision surpass that
• 43:25
  Speaker 3: so it doesn't reflect doesn't reflect onto the you know,
• 43:29
  Speaker 3: patient-therapist relationship. We don't want, or that's what countertransference is
• 43:33
  Speaker 3: all about. You don't want your issues getting in the
• 43:36
  Speaker 3: way with your treatment. That is like a bit, that's
• 43:39
  Speaker 3: why it's like to all new therapists out there, if
• 43:43
  Speaker 3: they're not, if you're not in your own treatment, and
• 43:47
  Speaker 3: I don't care what kind of treatment it is, but
• 43:48
  Speaker 3: if you're not in your own treatment, you are doing
• 43:51
  Speaker 3: yourself a great disservice as a therapist.
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: You must be- And your client, and your client. See,
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: people say like, What's the training? What's the this? What's
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: the that? I'm like, really? Your own therapy, your own therapy,
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: your own therapy.
• 44:02
  Speaker 3: And supervision.
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: And supervision. Well, it's both because it's like deepening, deepening
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: the self, deepening the skills. Of course, you want to
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: cultivate skills, but it's really about like what you said,
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: going on a journey. And I love how you're saying, like,
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: ask yourself these questions. Like you're saying it Hindi, like
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: in a way where it's like, We're not criticizing or judging.
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: Like often it's normal to come with like a codependent
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: or to have a savior part of you or a
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: part of you that just wants to help or maybe
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: is like overly sensitive. Or I think even just starting
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: to acknowledge your why and started having these like reflective,
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: self-reflective conversations. Already it starts creating some kind of distance between, well,
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: what is my why? And how do I own when
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: I'm having a very strong reaction to someone whose father
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: is very similar to mine or whose husband is very
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: similar to an ex-boyfriend, right? So it's almost like starting
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: to create that capacity for awareness, right, is what you're saying.
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: And I think it's like what you just said, like
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: that reflective ability. I've only ever hired people at my
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: practice who were like were in their own therapy and
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: I think that, or I've ever, I've only ever really
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: referred to people as well who I could just, obviously
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: they share in their own, like they've done their own work.
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: There's just a different layer of, I think, humility, depth,
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: and reflectiveness that I think just exists.
• 45:19
  Speaker 3: You can't teach people how to reflect and understand themselves
• 45:24
  Speaker 3: if you have not gone through your own journey, as
• 45:29
  Speaker 3: it were, of reflecting and understanding yourself. If you don't
• 45:34
  Speaker 3: understand yourself, in that, I don't mean in a simplistic way,
• 45:40
  Speaker 3: deep way, if you don't really kind of, you know,
• 45:43
  Speaker 3: talk about self-reflection, insight, and so on, really looking inside yourself, mind, body,
• 45:49
  Speaker 3: seeing what part of your body gets rumbled every single
• 45:51
  Speaker 3: time something happens. Oh, I feel it in my stomach. Oh,
• 45:54
  Speaker 3: I feel it in my shoulders. Oh, I feel it
• 45:56
  Speaker 3: in my chest. Understanding your body. Like, you know, it's
• 45:59
  Speaker 3: like someone once said to me, do you work with
• 46:01
  Speaker 3: borderline personalities? I said, yes, I do. So they said, well,
• 46:04
  Speaker 3: what do you, how do you know? I said, I
• 46:06
  Speaker 3: could be sitting with a person who has borderline personality disorder,
• 46:10
  Speaker 3: 10 minutes, 10 minutes, my stomach starts hurting. After about 10,
• 46:15
  Speaker 3: 15 minutes, I feel it in my stomach. So you
• 46:17
  Speaker 3: need to be in touch with your body. It's not
• 46:19
  Speaker 3: all everyone thinks, oh, psychoanalysis is all cognitive. It's all
• 46:22
  Speaker 3: top down. You have to be in, if you're a
• 46:24
  Speaker 3: good analyst and you need to be in touch with
• 46:27
  Speaker 3: your body because you need it for your, you need
• 46:29
  Speaker 3: to be in touch with every single aspect of yourself
• 46:31
  Speaker 3: because you need it for that countertransferential reaction to understand
• 46:35
  Speaker 3: what your countertransference is and thus help, you know, the
• 46:38
  Speaker 3: transference and so on. So that's why I keep coming
• 46:42
  Speaker 3: back to this. I think the other modalities are so
• 46:44
  Speaker 3: wonderful and I'm so respectful of all the other really
• 46:47
  Speaker 3: gifted modalities that I know you do, Esther, but I,
• 46:50
  Speaker 3: and I, and I'm, you know, trained in some of them,
• 46:53
  Speaker 3: as you know, but you know, My mamaloshun, as they say,
• 46:57
  Speaker 3: my language of love is a psychoanalytic work. And I
• 47:00
  Speaker 3: think it encompasses many things.
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: Well, I think if we look at it, it's like,
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: it's not the modality ever that really heals the client.
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: Like when we said this, it's really the therapeutic relationship.
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: And that's why when you ask, right. So when you
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: ask about like a therapy.
• 47:14
  Speaker 3: That's the most immunative aspect of any psychotherapy. I don't
• 47:18
  Speaker 3: care what modality, the most immunative aspect of any psychotherapy is.
• 47:23
  Speaker 3: Is the therapeutic relationship correct? Right.
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: It's a therapeutic relationship of can you cultivate a therapeutic relationship?
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: I think we have a responsibility, like obviously you're a
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: psychoanalyst and then you've done intensive training. I do think
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: that there's a responsibility to deepen our skill. So it's
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: not just like you graduate with your doctorate or your
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: master's and now it's the therapeutic relationship. There's a responsibility
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: to deepen that. How you deepen that, that's up to you.
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: But I'm 100% with you on don't run in and
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: just give people tools because I think I remember I
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: actually once did this. I was like, I remember talking
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: to a good friend of mine who was going through
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: a difficulty in her marriage. And she said to me,
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: she's like, you know what it is? I'm a bull
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: and my husband's a plate. She was struggling. She's like,
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: I just feel like when he tells me things, I
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: can take in. But I feel like when I say
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: things to him, he just kind of all falls off
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: the plate. And it made me then think about something.
• 48:14
  Speaker 3: That's a great metaphor.
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: Isn't it brilliant? And then it made me think about
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: being a therapist. We first need to create the relationship
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: that our clients and ourselves are a bowl. Because if
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: your client's coming in as a plate or the therapeutic
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: relationship is a plate and you start piling things up, no,
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: I don't care. I've had clients say like, wait, so
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: I heard you do this, this. I'm like, hold on
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: one second. I'm not doing anything. First, you're just going
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: to get to know me. I'm going to get to
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: know you. Let's just see. We're not bringing in any fancy.
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: I think the technique, that's like the whole, like the
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: science and art, like what you just said. And that's
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: why I'm loving this conversation is like, you said, like,
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: do you feel it in here? It's the heart. And
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: it's the capacity to connect and to hold. And that's
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: like the foundation. Only once we have that can you
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: then obviously use some techniques or interventions. I know for myself,
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: somatic interventions were really profound. I know some of my colleagues,
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: I know some of the training I did in like
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: Sanitry is so expressive for people who are not as
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: like intellectually aware or eloquent or not in touch. But
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: I agree with you 100 percent. Like talk about the bowl.
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: It all comes back to that piece. And I love
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: how you have like you just have that because of
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: your training and like your your expertise.
• 49:19
  Speaker 3: You know I have to tell you I'm listening to
• 49:21
  Speaker 3: you and I'm reminded because how do you how do
• 49:24
  Speaker 3: you um kind of think about the therapeutic relationship, what
• 49:29
  Speaker 3: popped into my mind, I'm free associating, is what we
• 49:31
  Speaker 3: called the rapprochement phase of childhood development. So rapprochement is
• 49:36
  Speaker 3: part of the separation individuation, part of early childhood. Rapprochement
• 49:43
  Speaker 3: means in French to re-approach. So what you do is
• 49:45
  Speaker 3: you see how the child separates and runs back to mommy.
• 49:49
  Speaker 3: So the study that I'm reminded of, the video that
• 49:51
  Speaker 3: I'm reminded of watching, is they did this study with
• 49:54
  Speaker 3: a whole bunch of moms, because you said Sandra, a
• 49:56
  Speaker 3: whole bunch of moms sitting around the table, coffee clatching,
• 49:59
  Speaker 3: and they're sitting with their coffees. They're all coffee clatching.
• 50:01
  Speaker 3: And there are children who are not really doing interpersonal
• 50:04
  Speaker 3: play yet because they're two and a half. It's rapprochement
• 50:07
  Speaker 3: is like 18 to 30 months. So they're all playing
• 50:11
  Speaker 3: with the sandbox and dollies and toys over here. And
• 50:14
  Speaker 3: over here is the table with the mother. And all
• 50:16
  Speaker 3: of a sudden you see the kids playing. not even
• 50:18
  Speaker 3: so much with each other, but near each other, right?
• 50:20
  Speaker 3: Parallel prey, not interpersonal. And all of a sudden they realize, oh,
• 50:24
  Speaker 3: where's mommy? They run back. They, mommy, mommy goes and
• 50:27
  Speaker 3: hugs them, kisses them. They tug at mommy's skirts and
• 50:30
  Speaker 3: mommy gives them a hug and a kiss. And oh yes, sweetie.
• 50:32
  Speaker 3: Oh yes, sweetie. And then they go back and back
• 50:35
  Speaker 3: and forth it goes, rapprochement, back and forth it goes.
• 50:38
  Speaker 3: And that's how the person develops into a little person,
• 50:41
  Speaker 3: into then a bigger person, because they have the security
• 50:44
  Speaker 3: of mommy, but yet they separate and go on. And that's,
• 50:47
  Speaker 3: in a sense, what we do therapeutically, transferentially with our patients.
• 50:52
  Speaker 3: They stay with us, but then they go out and
• 50:55
  Speaker 3: learn how to be on their own. And they come
• 50:57
  Speaker 3: back and forth through this back and forth until they
• 51:00
  Speaker 3: are budding and Wonderful and healthy.
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: It's like the mama bird. And she's like feeding them.
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: And she's like, you're going to spread your wings.
• 51:09
  Speaker 3: And you'll go and you'll come back. And then they go.
• 51:13
  Speaker 3: And they're happy. And you're happy because they're happy.
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: We want our children to outgrow us. To be able
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: to live in the world. And to be able to cultivate.
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: Self and a life of their own. We're going to
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: wrap up. I'm so glad for this conversation. It was wonderful.
• 51:31
  Speaker 3: Esther, you're a wonderful, wonderful conversationalist. Let me tell you.
• 51:35
  Speaker 3: I think this was a lovely conversation and I thank
• 51:37
  Speaker 3: you for it. I'm so glad.
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: I'm so glad to have that.