Latest / The Reverse Aging Club with Meredith Oke / 166: How Dr. Karyn Shanks Discovered a Holistic Approach to Overcome Chronic Illness

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166: How Dr. Karyn Shanks Discovered a Holistic Approach to Overcome Chronic Illness · The Reverse Aging Club with Meredith Oke

6:13
Doctor Karen Shanks, welcome to the QVC podcast. Thank
6:17
you. Thanks for having me. So
6:21
I'm so excited to talk to you because I really feel like you have
6:25
such a beautiful holistic view of a lot of
6:29
different things that you have sort of created through the
6:32
course of your career. And so I want to start at the beginning
6:36
of that because you are somebody
6:40
who, based on. Based on listening to your interviews,
6:43
you had a bit of a red flag about the medical system from the
6:47
moment you started training in it. But
6:51
thank you for persisting and being a change maker from the inside.
6:56
So could you sort of tell us you came
7:00
in, you know, you came into as a
7:04
medical student with one idea of what it would be
7:07
like only to be confronted with another. And seems to me you spent
7:11
a long time building a bridge between those two things. So tell us a bit
7:15
about what your initial experience with the system.
7:18
Yes, with the system, which I
7:22
was naive enough not to even understand it as a system, but
7:26
as, oh, the way it is, you know, how we
7:30
all are. So, yeah, I went into medicine with this very
7:34
naive but beautiful notion
7:37
that medicine was going to be all about connecting to human
7:41
beings and helping them heal. I had a background in
7:44
nursing and working with. In hospice
7:48
care and nursing care in the home and
7:52
people with, you know, disabilities and chronic complex conditions
7:55
and really getting to know them in the context of their homes and their
7:59
lives and their families. And it was so beautiful. And I
8:03
wanted to do more. And I thought that's where I was going. I
8:06
thought that's what medicine was going to be like, more of that, like, show me
8:09
how to do even more of that. And
8:14
that's not what I experienced. You know, I.
8:18
So as I prepared for medical school, I was immersed
8:22
in the biological sciences, physics, you know,
8:27
beautiful. I mean, I mean, it just. I loved every bit of that.
8:31
And the first year of medical school is like, all of that, like, in
8:35
a very concentrated, intensive form.
8:38
And I loved it. It was exciting. Oh, my gosh.
8:42
All this gorgeous biological complexity that we're going
8:46
to get to, like, use as a lens
8:50
to help understand what's going on with people and what makes them suffer
8:53
and how we can help them heal. And as soon as we
8:58
switched from that first year of all
9:01
biological sciences, human biological sciences, and
9:05
switched into our second year, it became all about
9:09
pathology, all about the problems that people
9:13
have looked at in a very particular way, looked at
9:16
through the lens of the disease model. What do we call
9:20
this thing that they have? What does it look like under the
9:24
microscope and at the same time we had a
9:27
pharmacology course. So it's like, and here's the drug that
9:31
fixes that thing. And it just confused the hell out of me. I didn't have
9:35
a way to or I felt deeply uncomfortable.
9:39
I felt disappointed. It was like it was a
9:42
crisis. It was a disillusionment. But I didn't know what
9:46
that disillusionment was until later. I kept going.
9:50
I was depressed. I was, you know, I'd be at
9:54
the bedside with teachers and other students and we're
9:57
sizing these people up in terms of what disease they have,
10:04
sort of discarding a lot of the information
10:07
that they were bringing to the table but didn't
10:11
fit that, that, that way of looking at them. And so, and
10:15
we talk about them in terms of their labels.
10:18
I don't know. It was, it was really, it was tough. So it
10:22
was kind of a, a dark night of the soul. I'm. I didn't know what
10:26
I was doing at that point, but I kept going. Something kept me going.
10:30
And same ditto for post medical school
10:34
residency training. I trained as an internist all and
10:38
mostly in the hospital. So people who are very
10:42
urgently, critically, acutely ill or, you know,
10:47
needing to be rescued from their problems.
10:51
And it wasn't until I finished and I did, you know, I was
10:55
too overwhelmed with the
10:59
just the all consuming time commitments of that
11:02
training to really like, reflect. What am I doing? Okay. I
11:06
think this is the path I need to be on. I have no idea why.
11:10
I have no idea where it's going. As soon as I started
11:13
practice day one, oh, I didn't learn a thing that I can apply
11:17
to these people. I didn't.
11:20
Of course I did, but I didn't, I didn't learn
11:24
what I needed. For people in the community with
11:28
the wide variety of chronic problems
11:32
and sources of suffering that they have, I don't, I didn't know
11:35
what to do. I had to start my training all over.
11:39
So that was. There was. There's another crisis. Oh God, I've got to start my
11:43
training. But that was. Went through med school,
11:46
which is the most intense of them all and, and it wasn't
11:50
enough. I have, I have a question. Yeah. Regarding the
11:54
disease model. Because so obviously I think the disease
11:57
model in and of itself is reductive, but I'm wondering if
12:01
it's become even less useful over time. Like my feeling
12:05
as an outside observer is that the
12:09
clusters of symptoms that people are showing up
12:13
with are. I feel like the medical
12:17
system is rushing to come up with new diagnoses, like almost every month I
12:20
hear one. I'm like, there's a, like there's a new kind of that.
12:26
And so I feel like it's becoming even less useful as the,
12:30
the symptoms that people are having and the. That's right. Random collision of
12:33
conditions is becoming more and more complex. Is that what you're seeing?
12:37
A hundred percent. So what I'm seeing is an evolution
12:41
of diagnoses that aren't really even diagnoses. They're descriptions
12:45
only. Chronic, chronic fatigue syndrome. What does that say?
12:49
The person's tired and we can deduce some things about
12:52
that, but we know nothing about the cause. And it's going to be a different
12:56
cause or constellation of causes in every
12:59
single individual with that diagnosis.
13:03
So I trained in functional medicine
13:06
subsequent to my conventional training. And what we learned to do
13:10
is just set that disease box aside and let's look
13:13
through a new lens. Let's look at everything differently. Let's look at
13:17
it through a whole person model and let's look at it through a
13:21
systems biology model which is so much more complex than
13:25
what we do when we put somebody in a disease box and go
13:28
through a differential diagnosis which really doesn't get people.
13:32
It's perfect. If you're in the ER and you're having a heart attack
13:36
or you have a great big cancerous tumor and it, it has
13:39
to come out, that's. That disease model is perfect for
13:43
that. So this isn't about like all just, just throwing
13:47
out the, you know, western medicine because
13:51
it is so good at what it does, it's just
13:54
terrible at everything else.
13:58
Yes. You know, and having, having come through.
14:01
What I call chronic fatigue because I don't know what else to call it.
14:07
I would completely agree with you. We're just describing these
14:11
conditions. And what I'm also seeing, and I've personally experienced and
14:14
hear over and over, is that they don't
14:18
start out as full blown crises. So the
14:22
medical model doesn't tend to have much
14:25
to say. But people's quality of life
14:29
is going down kind of earlier and earlier in
14:33
chronologically and just sort of in, in the process. It's. That's
14:37
right. And so I'm wondering what your thoughts are on that, what's
14:41
leading to that and this, this gray area of not
14:44
living our best lives, not being as healthy as we could be,
14:48
but also going to the doctor and they're like, yeah, your labs are fine.
14:53
Basically the message is like, come back when you're in crisis. But there's this
14:57
there's like, decades of gray area. That's Right. Lowering quality
15:01
of life. So then we're adding. Not having
15:04
answers. What we're adding to not getting our answers from the
15:08
Western medical model. We're adding being
15:11
gaslighted by the medical model. Right. Like, oh,
15:15
well, I don't know what to tell you.
15:19
And I've had patients come to me and say that their doctors
15:23
said outright, there's nothing wrong. Go to the psychiatrist.
15:26
It's probably just stress. I mean, they're. They're outright
15:30
gaslit. But even those
15:33
physicians who aren't willing to, you know, to say that
15:37
the, the implied
15:41
explanation for your suffering is that
15:44
something's wrong with you and the way you're perceiving
15:48
things, that's the message we walk away with. I've been through. I've been through
15:52
that same thing. I mean, even knowing that this is going
15:55
on in medicine, I've also experienced that sense of,
15:59
like, falling through the cracks. Oh, my God. There's really something wrong with
16:03
me that isn't, like, real, you know,
16:07
so, yeah, that is.
16:12
That's huge. And so when I end up working with.
16:16
By the time they come to me, they have a problem
16:19
that's, you know, it's a train that's kind of rolling
16:23
off the tracks because so much time has gone by, and
16:27
they haven't had abnormal labs, which doesn't mean there aren't
16:30
labs out there that could explain what's going on with
16:34
them. Right. You know, a huge part of the problem is
16:38
that docs for a long time now have not
16:41
had time to hear the whole story, to put all
16:45
the pieces together. Most of the people who come to me are not, you know,
16:49
you know, they're labeled as mystery illness. You
16:52
know, chronic fatigue syndrome, whatever. Once I dig in and give people
16:56
the time they need to tell their whole story and look through all their
17:00
medical records, everything that's been done so far, it's usually not
17:04
rocket science. It's usually not anything mysterious.
17:08
Right. It's just that I've decided to build my practice to meet
17:12
people's needs, not to meet my needs or the needs of a system.
17:17
So I don't have time constraints, and I may spend two
17:20
to four hours with a new client and all
17:24
their medical records, and we come up with some really
17:28
simple things that need to be adjusted, and off they go.
17:32
And they're great. They do great. That's
17:36
such a good point. It's like, it's not necessarily a mystery illness.
17:40
It's a mystery illness that can't be solved in a 50 minute appointment.
17:43
That's right. That or by people who only have a disease
17:47
box mentality. Not let's. Okay,
17:51
they're tired. That suggests some mitochondrial
17:54
dysfunction. Okay, how do we look at mitochondrial dysfunction? Why
17:57
do mitochondria fail to make the energy that the
18:01
person needs? And then you, you know, and there's a whole algorithm you can go
18:05
through from the structure of the mitochondria to know
18:09
toxic influences on the mitochondria. I mean there's a
18:12
whole, there's a whole spectrum of things that we have to think through
18:16
and, and that's all known human
18:20
biology, that it's just a
18:24
process. So. Yeah, yeah, I, I'm, I
18:27
can't excuse my colleagues practicing in, you
18:31
know, in what, in typical Western medicine
18:34
settings for not being able to help the majority
18:38
of people who walk through their doors, who walk away without that help.
18:43
Right. And in many cases are sent down a
18:46
prescription spiral that makes everything worse. That's right.
18:50
That's right. So I feel like my job,
18:54
my, my role, huge part of my role is to
18:58
empower people to like question and
19:02
trust that. You know, most of the people
19:06
who come to see me, they have known from
19:09
the beginning on some level that medicine just
19:13
hasn't gotten them yet, you know, but it's,
19:17
it's so overwhelming and it's so difficult to trust that
19:21
when every, the world trusts Western
19:25
medicine and what comes through the scientific method, what,
19:28
you know, what comes into Western medicine as the facts?
19:33
Here's how humans operate, here's what's wrong with humans.
19:37
Right. It's a paradigm
19:41
of understanding that really doesn't get us in our complexity
19:46
and so has really no business in the realm of chronic
19:49
illness. We need a whole other
19:53
medicine for that. That is absolutely
19:56
the truth. That's a perfect way to say it. It has no business with
20:00
chronic illness. I know. Yeah.
20:06
Oh, I love that because I've,
20:11
I know that something you also are quite passionate about is this idea
20:14
like the way that you've just framed the system as looking
20:18
at us as though there's something wrong with us. We then internalize that.
20:22
That's right. And we feel like if we have a
20:26
symptom or, or a condition or something's not right, there's something wrong with us.
20:29
And even those of us like really committed to, you
20:33
know, who have high personal agency and are doing a lot of research, we sometimes
20:37
just move that mindset over to a different path.
20:41
So even if we're on a path that is meant to be more
20:44
Natural and compassionate and aligned with
20:48
nature. We still bring in that mindset of, like,
20:52
oh, well, if I'm not better yet, I'm doing something wrong. Right?
20:56
That's right. And I call that grain medicine. So it's the same
20:59
paradigm. It's linear.
21:03
It's still putting us in some kind of box. Oh, you.
21:08
You've got gut dysfunction or, you know, a leaky gut,
21:11
or, you know, we give it different names, but then we're still trying
21:15
to fix that thing with some kind of magic bullet.
21:19
And if we don't get better, we failed. And it's
21:23
really hard to resist that, to resist thinking about things that way,
21:26
because we have all these cognitive biases that are,
21:30
you know, we think we kind of glom onto the most
21:34
negative way to view something. We try to
21:37
simplify things as much as we possibly can. I get that. I
21:41
want. I mean, I feel that in myself, I want to understand things
21:45
in a very simple way. But that
21:48
often leads to us, like, getting in our way. Like, we can't make any
21:52
progress if we aren't, like, curious and open to possibilities
21:56
that we don't even know exist, if
22:00
that makes sense, you know,
22:04
so that's. Yeah, it's an interesting journey of
22:07
discovery. When we're on a healing path for any kind of
22:11
chronic illness, chronic complex illness, chronic
22:15
sources of suffering, or just want to. Want to
22:19
feel robust and resilient
22:23
and, you know, function at a very high level,
22:27
is to come at it in a very loose,
22:32
open,
22:36
oh, how do I want to say that? Just like staying
22:40
curious. Just staying very curious and
22:44
asking people to. For asking experts to help us
22:48
reading, doing all the things we feel
22:53
called to do, remaining
22:57
healthily skeptical, which is a form of curiosity,
23:02
and then just, okay, I don't feel a whole lot
23:06
better. After doing X, Y and Z, though it seemed like a reasonable thing to
23:10
do. I wonder what else there is to do. Let's do
23:14
some more exploring. But doing it in a way and just an open, curious way
23:17
and not a way that blames us and that we're all
23:21
terrible about that. We blame ourselves, we blame our
23:25
bodies. That's basically what we're doing when we say, something's
23:28
wrong, something's broken, something here needs to be fixed.
23:32
We're blaming our bodies for how we feel, for our
23:36
suffering. When we're really not stuck at a point
23:40
where something isn't working. We're on an equilibrium that's
23:44
constantly changing. There are so many aspects to who we are
23:48
that are operating at all times. I call that the Terrain, the
23:52
terrain of our healing, all the things about our lives that make us
23:56
us. Whether we're talking about movement or sleep or
24:00
love, how we're connected, how we're, you know, what's happened to us
24:03
in our lives. There's so many moving parts.
24:07
So we're always shifting along this equilibrium of whatever you want to call
24:11
it, health, resilience, suffering. So the
24:15
equilibrium may feel like suffering, it may look like chronic illness, but it's
24:18
really this dynamic place that has. There
24:22
are so many inroads to shifting where we're at on that
24:25
equilibrium. And one of the things I like to do is show
24:29
people that terrain. Look at all these things that are part. That are part
24:33
of what makes you you. That all
24:36
feed into your genetic expression. Which means
24:40
we can shift our genetic expression to shift where we
24:44
are on that equilibrium through all kinds of things that we
24:48
can do that we have control over.
24:52
By doing that, we can rise out of a lot of the things that make
24:56
us suffer. We can rise out of chronic illness. In
24:59
fact, I don't know another way to do it in a sustainable way that
25:02
addresses our problems and our sources of suffering at
25:06
the most root cause.
25:12
Yes. And I love this because I've like,
25:16
haven't really found a way to articulate it, but it's almost
25:20
sort of like we're on this, taking turns,
25:24
a little bit of like pushing ourselves forward and trying a new thing, but then
25:27
having this space to
25:31
integrate it and then open up to whatever
25:34
needs to come next. But not feeling like we're on a treadmill and
25:38
not feeling like we need the next thing because we've failed.
25:42
We just need the next thing because that's what we're ready for.
25:46
I like that way of thinking about it. I mean, I think that's. We can
25:49
only do so many things at a time. And the more we know
25:53
we've humans have been studied for along the human brain, the more we try to
25:56
do it one time, the less effective we are at anything. So it really
26:01
is important that on a healing path, on any path, any
26:04
path of growth, we just choose a thing or two to
26:08
focus on and really, really. And give it its due. And as soon as
26:12
it's worn out, it's welcome or it's just not serving you
26:15
anymore. No matter how enthusiastic your
26:19
acupuncturist is about what they're doing for you, if you don't feel
26:23
better and you start to feel like you're on a treadmill, it's okay
26:27
to walk away that. That thing. Okay that wasn't. It either didn't work
26:31
or there's so many things going on with you, you just can't
26:34
feel the benefit even there, even though there is some benefit there.
26:38
And I think most people have a sense for whether
26:41
something is benefiting them or not, you know. Yes.
26:45
And be empowered to walk, to walk away. Go to
26:49
the next thing, exercise your agency.
26:52
You're, you're in charge, you. And you
26:56
actually have the wisdom inside you to know
27:01
what to do. But people definitely
27:04
don't understand that or believe that some people do. But
27:08
most people need some encouragement, especially when they're suffering. It's so hard
27:12
to suffer, suffer, suffer, you know, in so
27:16
many ways and then have to
27:20
come up with the next right thing to do on your own.
27:25
I've been, I've been there many times.
27:29
It's true. I, in my, I,
27:33
my background is in, in coaching, like, you know. Yeah. Executive coaching
27:37
type stuff, not health. And I remember there, this one guy
27:41
was like, most people are playing an
27:44
unwinnable game. They have set up an unwinnable game
27:48
for themselves. And I just, I mean, I heard that years and years ago and
27:51
it always sticks with me because that's sort. Of what you just described. Yeah,
27:55
it's like we were in the suffering,
27:59
but we set it up in a way that it's always, always our fault
28:03
no matter what we do. I know, I know,
28:06
I know. In some ways I think we have to unravel that first. Right. We've
28:10
got to kind of give people
28:13
permission to be really tender and compassionate with
28:17
themselves as they navigate the healing journey
28:20
and just do a few things at a time and
28:25
hold all the experiences with compassion. You know, we're never
28:29
wrong for the way we feel. Our feelings are actually.
28:33
Our feelings aren't there to torture us, they're there to show
28:37
us the way. But we tend to want to
28:40
erase the, the feelings that make us suffer
28:44
or, or sensations, symptoms, whatever, whatever it is we're talking
28:47
about. We want to erase suffering
28:51
rather than walk into the suffering. What do you have to teach me?
28:55
Where, where do we go next? Like it's a portal and
28:59
if we look at it that way, we're going to get somewhere,
29:03
you know, we're going to get somewhere. As soon as we say we're wrong
29:07
in whatever colorful way we say that
29:11
it shuts us down. So that
29:15
I feel like that's the primary work I have with my client every time I
29:18
meet with them, you know, is to help
29:22
them have that forward looking view
29:26
and that they're holding everything
29:30
with that compassion and that curiosity that they need in order
29:34
to access the wisdom that's inside them. And that may sound
29:38
kind of woo woo to those who are listening, who
29:42
want me to talk about the science of human potential,
29:47
but it really is the, it's where it has to start. It is for
29:51
me, I have to start every day in meditation, kind of reviewing
29:55
all that and affirming all that for myself. Because there's something
29:59
to suffer for every single day. And you know.
30:03
Yes, you said, you said something really interesting a few minutes ago.
30:06
You're like, there might be benefits. And I think it's related to this topic
30:10
of suffering. Like you might, there may be benefits happening that.
30:14
But you aren't noticing them or feeling them. And
30:17
I've heard this lately from people, especially,
30:22
you know, the people that I talk to like you, that we
30:25
tend to not recommend like a pill that's going to make a big difference
30:29
overnight. It's like, you know,
30:33
more lifestyle. And so that I've heard from
30:36
practitioners lately, like that challenge of people be like, no, nothing's happening. No,
30:40
nothing's happening. And like as you dig, you realize there's been a tremendous
30:43
progress. But we do have that.
30:49
We don't notice, we don't feel, we can't see it. Yeah, right.
30:53
What's going on there in your experience? Yeah, well,
30:57
part of it is a negativity bias. We look at
31:01
what's not working and glom onto that and
31:04
it's more difficult for us to look at
31:08
what good is happening, what progress has been made.
31:12
And that's a known bias of the human
31:16
psyche, which is why it's so
31:19
important, especially during times like right now,
31:23
what's going on in the world, what's going on with our government. We have to
31:26
have ways to shift our attention to things that are
31:30
beautiful because otherwise we're just going to be scrolling
31:34
and you know, and watching the news and staying in
31:38
a high survival state.
31:41
And yeah,
31:46
that is a attribute of the human brain that kept our ancestors
31:49
alive during really complex times on Earth. So,
31:53
so but knowing that we can intentionally
31:57
shift our attention to something else, something that
32:01
feels nurturing, something that makes us feel
32:04
enlivened some, you know, we just have, that's our, that's
32:08
our responsibility to do that. The
32:12
other thing, what did you. There was something else I was going to say about.
32:17
Oh, what did you say? What was the first thing you said that you heard
32:20
me say? It was about like not noticing when we
32:24
make progress or not noticing, like there may we're doing
32:27
something and there's a benefit. And it's like, no, this isn't working.
32:31
Nothing. Nothing's changed. But in fact. And sometimes it
32:34
is that negativity bias and that. So I like, I'm practically
32:38
interrogating my people, like, every time I see. Okay, I want to. All
32:42
right, tell me what happened. Okay. You know, and we may. We
32:45
may discover there are things that have improved. People
32:49
with chronic complex illness have a lot. There's a lot going
32:53
on, and there are a lot of moving parts. It's more a
32:56
constellation of things that need attention than a thing.
33:00
It's never a thing. It's never a thing.
33:06
And so sometimes there's. One of my mentors put it
33:10
this way. He had this three tack rule. Have you heard this before? The
33:14
three tack rule. If you sit on three tacks,
33:17
it's going to hurt like hell. It's going to hurt like bloody hell. And no
33:21
amount of ibuprofen or anything's going to make you feel better.
33:25
Take two tacks out, you've taken care of two thirds of your problem.
33:29
That sounds huge, and it is huge. But one tack still hurts
33:32
like hell. So for some, and I
33:36
explain this to my clients, and I know it's such a leap
33:40
of faith for them to hold on when we've done so
33:43
much and there's so much progress, but they still don't feel. Feel the way they
33:47
need and want to feel. We've got to get to that last tack.
33:51
We've got to do the 20 things. And sometimes we don't have to do all
33:54
20 things. We identify. Sometimes a couple of them are like
33:58
hubs that are responsible for some of the other things that have gone.
34:02
Gone wrong. Like you've. You talk about light and circadian rhythms,
34:06
and sometimes a problem like that, we fix that,
34:10
and then a whole bunch of things downstream to that just,
34:13
you know, get. Get into the groove that we need
34:17
them to. We don't have to, like, fix every single thing.
34:21
Yes, that. And that does make so much sense. I
34:25
love that three tack because, yes, two of them are out, but you still got
34:29
a tack in your. In your bottom. Like, what if
34:33
that is a big, big problem? What if you're sensitive to gluten
34:37
and you've got. You live next door to a farm
34:40
with a bunch of chemicals flying all around and
34:44
which you can't do anything about because you, you know, you're not going to be
34:47
able to. Yeah, you're just probably not going to be able.
34:50
And you. You
34:54
don't sleep Those are three huge things.
34:58
Now, maybe if we get the sleep in order, which.
35:01
And get it onto a, you know, to a correct circadian
35:04
rhythm, maybe all the other things, you know, the gut will heal
35:08
the, you know, maybe that'll address everything else but for people to really
35:12
feel better. And people deserve to get a little taste of that
35:16
feeling better after suffering for so long. And so.
35:19
And I just thought of what I was going to say to what you had
35:22
said earlier. Sometimes we use a pill
35:26
that may not. May only be a band aid and it
35:30
may not address the underlying causes at all. But if we
35:34
can reduce suffering, we're going to. That is such a.
35:40
People begin to feel the safety. They begin to feel the hope.
35:46
I always explain what we're doing. This isn't going to
35:50
cure you. This is just going to make you feel better. But that's huge. You
35:54
get your wits back about you and get
35:57
you really in the flow of what we need to do to address those
36:01
more root cause issues. I am not opposed to
36:05
using conventional medicine.
36:09
Yes. When it is going to serve a valuable purpose, but we're not going
36:13
to rely on it. It's not our solution. Right.
36:16
It's like a bridge out of a bad situation.
36:21
I'm the same way. I'm like, if it's really bad, it's like, just give
36:25
me enough relief to be able to do what I'm supposed
36:29
to do. But I can't take those steps from where I am when it's
36:32
really, really bad. Exactly. It's compassionate. That's
36:36
compassionate care. Yeah. Yeah.
36:39
Okay, so I want to talk for a few minutes about epigenetics.
36:44
Yes. And I love, because I loved how you explained it.
36:48
Well, I have just. Okay, just give us your. Give us
36:51
your. Your description of it. That
36:55
our genetic destiny is not set in stone. Yeah,
36:59
we're not. We weren't designed
37:02
to follow in the
37:06
exact trajectory as our parents and our grandparents.
37:10
That actually. The genetics. So the genes
37:14
don't change. Our genes are set, but the way they express
37:18
themselves, especially how they express themselves together,
37:23
is very fluid. And it's dependent on
37:27
basically everything that happens to us.
37:30
Everything we feel, everything we experience,
37:34
everything we ingest, everything about us and
37:38
the terrain that makes us us is going to. Is going
37:41
to result in some shift in genetic expression. In fact,
37:45
most of our genes, like over 99% of our
37:49
genes, are regulatory genes that do this
37:52
shifting, turning on and off. They. In response to what happens to
37:56
us. And that little minority are the genes that
38:00
actually code for the proteins that create Our structure and function.
38:04
So we have these endless inroads to shifting
38:07
our genetic expression, to change our biology, to change
38:11
where we are on that equilibrium of function as a human being.
38:17
And that's our. Like,
38:21
that's the magic of being human and addressing
38:24
our suffering and chronic illness at the most root level. Cause
38:28
we know so much about how to shift genetic expression
38:32
and some areas more than others. But. Yeah.
38:36
So then we think about the terrain and all the ways we
38:40
can shift genetic expression and we look at
38:44
what might be the priority areas. And people usually know what those priority
38:48
pri. Priority areas are. Or I, I can help them as I look at
38:51
what's happened with them and what their. What their life is
38:55
like. And we use
38:59
that whole principle of epigenetics to heal.
39:03
And epigenetics applied to the brain and the
39:07
nervous system is neuroplasticity. So we can change the
39:11
structure and function of our brain. We can change how it operates.
39:15
When I was in medical school, we didn't know this or it wasn't being taught
39:19
at the time. So the brain was like set.
39:22
Set, you know. Yeah. So you got to learn
39:26
everything there is to learn by a certain. By. By the best by date, and
39:29
then it's over. So I certainly grew up thinking that.
39:33
Oh, absolutely. I call it the. The science
39:37
of directable human potential. It's the science of
39:41
possibilities. It's just we. And they're endless because there are endless
39:45
combinations of these sh. In genetic expression. So I would.
39:48
There's never a time when I would say, okay, we've done all we can do,
39:52
because that's just not even possible to get to that point.
39:58
Yes. And some might call me an
40:01
idealist to a fault, but I don't think, I don't. I just don't think so.
40:05
I don't. I mean, how could, like, and who are you
40:09
to. Who is that person to say, no, it's done the. That there
40:13
are no more probabilities left. Like, of course there are.
40:17
Absolutely. Absolutely. That's. That's how I operate.
40:20
Yeah. And I. When you talk about like the
40:24
1% of the DNA,
40:28
that was also something that we were all sort
40:31
of primed to believe is that that was all there was.
40:36
And that is still holds on. They called it
40:40
the Human Genome Project. I think that was in 1990,
40:44
which, which all this came to light. And they called it junk
40:47
DNA. That 99% of our DNA that didn't code
40:51
were proteins that became our structure and function. They called
40:54
it junk DNA. Can you even believe
40:58
it? This is like such an example of
41:02
the scientific paradigm that.
41:07
That is really. I. That has just took us. Taken us down such a
41:10
terrible road. It's like we. We want to talk about this
41:14
1%. So all of the. The 99% that is
41:18
an anomaly to what our hypothesis is, we will
41:21
call junk. And you want to stay on the. Track that
41:25
we would like to stay on the science. Thanks, guys. The
41:29
science revealed the way things were. It revealed the
41:32
1% versus. But it was scientists who
41:36
had the audacity and the arrogance to
41:40
make the assumption without looking at. Look.
41:44
Looking any further, made the assumption that that was all junk just sitting there.
41:48
That was. That's just. That's human arrogance. And so that's a lot of
41:52
what's involved in why we've evolved. Evolved a
41:55
medical system that is still so reductive and
41:59
looks at people as machines and. And many parts, many
42:03
problems. This is the. This is not the fault
42:07
of a, you know, a God of science. This is like
42:10
people and how they handle the science and how
42:14
they. How limited their brains are.
42:18
For all you scientists listening,
42:22
I'm not talking about all of y', all, but, you know, and I'm. And we
42:26
all. We all can do that, right? Make assumptions. We make. It's what
42:29
we do all day long. Yes, of course. But. But I would. I would just,
42:33
you know, if I'm like, have an idea and I get in there and it's
42:37
like 99 of the stuff I'm looking at doesn't line
42:41
up with the idea. Maybe I
42:44
change my idea instead of labeling it junk.
42:48
Yeah. And basically, I'm sorry, but they.
42:52
They condemned generations of people to breast
42:56
cancer and things like that because we just reduced it to having this gene.
43:01
And only recently, it's like, well, actually,
43:04
if the gene is the bullet, what pulls the trigger? Like, that's
43:08
sort of what doctors are starting to say now. Yeah,
43:11
that's right. But we could have. We could have got there sooner, and that's still
43:15
like a somewhat simplistic. And we did
43:19
because there's some scientists who took it further. Yeah.
43:22
And epigenetics evolved. And it's
43:26
an. Epigenetics has been a very lively field of
43:30
study for, I don't know, before the genome project
43:33
even. But it hasn't filtered down into
43:37
clinical practice at all. Right. Or it
43:40
hasn't. I don't see the evidence of that. Is
43:44
that. That shocks me, being a North American
43:48
woman through going through your 40s.
43:53
Everybody has a friend or a friend of a friend who had a breast
43:56
cancer diagnosis. Yeah, right. Like, that's just how it is. I lost a
44:00
very close friend to breast cancer. And there is no
44:04
epigenetic. None of them are. And they
44:08
all go to the best anyway. I won't get into it. They all go to
44:11
the biggest and best hospitals to get treatment, which, you know,
44:15
great. Good for you. But the. But when they're
44:18
talking about but then there's no other discussion beyond that.
44:22
There is no epigenetic discussion. That's right. We don't look
44:26
back at the trend. Okay, let's take care of this cancer. We need to get
44:29
this tumor out. We need to get as much of the visible
44:33
cancer out. And there's a lot of good
44:36
evidence that because of how savvy cancer cells are,
44:40
getting what you can see out of the picture gives us a better
44:45
chance to activate all that
44:49
epigenetic potential so that there's a lasting
44:53
cure. But you're right.
44:58
Cancer treatment in general doesn't address
45:02
the terrain in which that cancer emerged. And
45:06
sure, there are genes that
45:10
increase people's risk, but it
45:14
is an absolute. What are all those other factors and why aren't they
45:17
being studied more vigorously? You hear about
45:21
the lone scientist out in North Dakota. I remember
45:25
this was at a conference once. She was studying the effects of
45:29
eating cruciferous vegetables on how the
45:33
liver pathways for clearing estrogens,
45:36
for biotransforming estrogens.
45:40
She was studying those pathways. There were some
45:44
that were associated with a higher risk
45:49
of getting breast cancer and certain autoimmune disorders.
45:52
There were other metabolites of estrogen that were very safe
45:56
and appeared not to be associated with that. She was
46:00
looking at an epigenetic phenomenon, but she's just some
46:04
obscure scientist. I don't know what happened to her. It was so
46:08
such exciting information to me. And I've never heard about it
46:11
since that time. Right. It's not
46:15
sexy. It's not popular. There's no funding for it. You
46:18
know, it's the science
46:22
that happens is what people care about and will put money on.
46:26
And it's all about the paradigms that the funders built believe
46:29
in and how they're going to benefit from. From that
46:33
research. Like, you know, drug companies supporting research that
46:37
will. And even these hospitals. I still get the letters from, you know,
46:40
Dana Farber or whatever they like, you know, donate
46:44
your money so we can cure cancer. And I'm like, you're not going. You have
46:48
no interest in curing cancer, first of all. And second of all,
46:51
you're. You're not going to. There's so much to look at that. As
46:55
to your point. Point is being completely ignored. Yeah, that's
46:59
right. And. And I, I do believe that the scientists, most
47:03
of the scientists really, in their heart of hearts, would want
47:07
to cure cancer. Yes. But there are so many competing commitments
47:10
to other things and so many limits on what they can do to
47:14
get tenure and get the notoriety and the success in their field.
47:18
It's just. It's a quagmire, you know,
47:22
It's a quagmire. And again, it's
47:25
responsive medicine. It's not. How do we live our lives
47:29
early as children, beginning as children so that we are
47:33
resilient to disease?
47:37
How do we do that? And isn't that the most downstream
47:40
place to focus our attention? But,
47:44
you know, that's where medicine should start. It's not what's going on
47:48
in this institution. It's like. Yeah, where do we begin?
47:51
I think we begin as people shifting our understanding
47:55
of how we work and teaching that to our children and
47:59
creating healthier lifestyles. And it. And
48:03
it feels like such a big ask,
48:07
you know? Yes. But I mean, I
48:11
think that comes back to what we were discussing earlier, where we've
48:15
been trained to kind of blame ourselves, but we've
48:19
also been trained to hand the power over to a medical
48:22
authority. That's correct. So to take that power
48:25
back. Yes. Feels like a huge
48:29
burden in some ways because it's so much
48:33
easier. Yeah, yeah. To. To
48:38
absolve ourselves of that responsibility.
48:42
We're scared and we feel so vulnerable. And we've been
48:46
since the day we were born. We've been disconnected from ourselves and
48:49
our own wisdom by all the institutions.
48:53
Not as a malicious thing. I'm not saying any. It's a conspiracy.
48:57
It's just how it is.
49:01
And yeah, we totally outsource our health and well being
49:06
to institutions like conventional Western
49:09
medicine. They're the experts. They know everything.
49:13
Science knows everything. Even
49:17
though science is a construct created by human beings that is, as
49:20
you said before, very reductive, looks at us in a very
49:24
specific and incorrect way.
49:29
And then we base all of our assumptions on what goes wrong with people
49:33
and how people can best heal based on that science that
49:36
is not adequate to understand us. And our true needs
49:40
were too complicated. You know, we're very. We're complex.
49:44
We don't fit in that little box. And
49:47
that came out of an era when that's, you know, the powers that
49:51
be. The politics of the time. This is back in the 16,
49:55
1700s, the scientific revolution. That's what they decided
49:59
that's how they decided to look at people. The body goes to
50:03
science. The mind and all the intangible parts of people
50:07
went to the church. And. It
50:10
hasn't changed a bit. Even though we all know better.
50:14
You talk to anyone, you know, you go into a coffee shop and start. You
50:18
can talk about this stuff. Everybody kind of knows we're whole.
50:22
There's more to us in our bodies, but
50:25
that's not how medicine is practiced, right?
50:29
So we're kind of like, oh, yeah, we're all. We're
50:33
whole. Mind, body, spirit, blah, blah, on and on, all the
50:37
words strung together. But we also. We
50:41
think of our. We all also think of ourselves as separate. We're
50:45
separate parts. And if we walk into the doctor's office, we are.
50:48
We expect to be treated like just a
50:52
physical body.
50:56
That's true. And it doesn't feel good. And
51:00
I know people have really close, wonderful relationships with their physicians, even
51:03
if they're still, you know, conventional medical model. And that feels
51:07
good. There's the empathy and the caring and concern, and that's
51:11
beautiful. That's very healing. But everybody knows, you know,
51:15
when you're really in trouble and you go to the doctor, you go to the
51:19
hospital, you're a body.
51:25
So if. If Dr. Karen Shanks was in
51:28
charge, oh, what.
51:32
How would. How would we look
51:36
at, let's say, a patient, if we would even use
51:39
that word, what would the model be?
51:44
You know, in your sort, in your ideal world of
51:48
how to think of ourselves, how to think of the people that we're working with
51:52
and helping? I think everybody in
51:55
healthcare needs to understand that they're working with this very
52:00
complex whole human
52:03
system organism that has more
52:07
intangible tangibles that you'll never understand
52:11
or be able to explain, that
52:16
that's who you're dealing with. And it really is
52:19
inadequate to just focus on biomarkers
52:22
and symptoms. That is wholly
52:26
inadequate. Now, as we build
52:30
this new ideal health care, whatever we do need
52:34
conventional Western medicine because there are too many people on the
52:37
precipice of dying or
52:41
who are suffering, who are in. And there
52:44
wouldn't be that number of people. There are, you know,
52:48
billions of people. Can I say billions? Well, I don't know.
52:53
I don't want to go too far out there, but there are
52:56
trillions of people across the planet who
53:00
have some sort of chronic, complex or just chronic, let's just
53:03
say chronic illness or source of suffering.
53:08
And the part of the fault of that is a
53:12
medical system that only reacts to problems that are
53:15
already
53:19
revealing themselves in symptoms
53:23
and catastrophic circumstances. If it weren't just a
53:27
reactive healthcare system, we wouldn't have so many sick people.
53:31
So there is a place for western medicine.
53:35
Treat that cancer, at least start that process,
53:39
fix the broken bone, repair the,
53:43
put the stents in the coronary arteries to
53:48
prevent a heart attack or whatever it is,
53:51
countless things. I think that to some extent we're
53:55
always going to need a system of
53:59
medicine like this because there are problems that we can't
54:02
even blame on, on having a
54:06
reactive system. I had a spontaneous retina
54:10
tear a few years ago. I had to have a retina specialist
54:13
repair it and save my eyesight. And that,
54:17
and that was absolutely fantastic.
54:21
But it didn't help me understand if there's
54:25
something underlying that I can address in a better way.
54:30
Whether there is or not, I'm very nearsighted. From what I understand
54:34
from functional ophthalmology, we can do something about
54:38
nearsightedness, you know, when we all just assumed that's just a thing.
54:42
You're born nearsighted, you're born farsighted anyway.
54:48
So, but, but then we, we need a, we need a whole system
54:51
of health care that gets in there,
54:55
has no time constraints, welcomes the
54:59
whole person and everything that makes them who they are. And it's
55:03
a team of players, physicians, you know,
55:07
all, all the healers of all sorts who come
55:10
together and can address the whole person, address
55:14
their trauma, address their, you know,
55:18
relationships, help them with lifestyle
55:22
things. Things that need to be shifted.
55:27
Yeah, we need that. And it might even be.
55:32
Ideally, it's kind of continuous with
55:36
what we provide young people through our
55:40
education systems and model for them by the
55:43
food that we serve them at their schools and we
55:47
teach young parents how to cook. And it's just a
55:51
whole societal cultural shift that we need to make
55:54
toward a healthier lifestyle. And there are a lot of
55:58
moving parts to that.
56:02
So that probably didn't help you. I don't think I put that
56:05
into a nutshell for you, but. Well, I mean, there's probably
56:09
not a nutshell that it would fit in, which is, which is what
56:13
we keep trying. To do is just, we are all
56:17
right, we're off track of a wellness trajectory for our lives.
56:21
We're completely off track as a nation, as a
56:24
culture, the western, the global planet at
56:28
this point. And I think
56:32
the first step is just acknowledging that that is true and
56:36
that our current system of medicine cannot address us and
56:39
our long term needs for healing
56:43
and for just creating resilience
56:46
and robustness. It doesn't have the tools or the understanding to do
56:50
that. We need. That's where we need to start. And then it could be even
56:53
not a second system of medicine, but just,
56:57
you know, communities just have a variety of
57:01
healers who come in with that holistic perspective about
57:04
human. Humans and how they function, how they heal.
57:08
Because we're all different. We all need and want different.
57:12
Different things. Yes, I do. And I have a
57:16
whole team. So, you know, Team Karen. Everybody's got
57:19
it. Everybody will build their team of people that help
57:23
them. And we all need help. Yeah. And I think again,
57:27
it comes back to us having to realize that we need to do that.
57:31
Right. It's like, oh, I have a job and I have health insurance
57:34
done. And you know, like what we do, we have health
57:38
insurance for the most catastrophic situations.
57:41
Yeah. And then. So we pay, you know, whatever the
57:45
lowest. It. Lowest thing is, and
57:48
then we pay out of pocket for
57:52
real health care. I know. Because we're not
57:56
sick. So we. So it's actually what you're talking about. It's preventative, it's
57:59
lifestyle, it's checking in. And I
58:03
think more people, you know, it's like, okay, the
58:06
first thing, we have to take responsibility for our own health and we have to
58:09
take responsibility for the. For the structure of it. That's right.
58:12
Because I was on the Internet the other day, people were posting what they're.
58:16
What they pay for health care in America. And I was like,
58:20
oh my God, I know. Just the premiums alone
58:24
or. Yeah, it's just. And that's a. No. A whole
58:27
other beast that has to be addressed in this.
58:31
Figuring out how to really support people, take care of people.
58:35
Because yeah, if you're. If that's a benefit of your job
58:39
and you don't have the money to just pay out of pocket for. Some
58:43
people can't afford a chiropractor
58:46
whose are generally fairly low.
58:51
It does feel like a situation where someone is stuck.
58:55
Yes. And it's not. So.
58:59
Yeah. And that's what, you know, I really like about
59:02
your work, is that you're connecting us back to our bodies,
59:06
how to listen to our bodies, how to be in communication so we catch
59:10
these things earlier. We don't need to spend
59:14
all of our dollars on getting fixed. If we can
59:17
stay. Stay whole.
59:21
That's right. Stay whole. And that's. And.
59:25
And there may be some suffering in that wholeness. Yeah. And I think that
59:29
to some extent that's part of being a human.
59:33
It's when it's like persistent suffering and we
59:36
can't we don't know what to do about it, then we need. We need help.
59:40
We need. And, you know, we need help. We need people who can
59:44
help us approach it in a way that makes sense and not
59:48
pathologize it, not necessarily give it a diagnosis.
59:52
I think there are ways in which a diagnosis
59:56
has been very helpful. People with mental health
1:00:00
issues. It's helped destigmatize
1:00:04
people. It's helped us understand that it's
1:00:07
not just the gods are mad at us. You know, we're being
1:00:11
persecuted for our. Whatever weaknesses
1:00:14
and what have you. I mean, we've come a long way with mental illness, but
1:00:17
it's really not enough. And it's. It can be
1:00:21
a roadblock. Okay. This person has,
1:00:26
you know, social. Chronic social anxiety.
1:00:29
Okay, that's again, it's a descriptive diagnosis.
1:00:33
By calling it a disease or a disorder, it
1:00:37
relieves the person of having to feel personally
1:00:40
responsible for that or culpable for that. But what
1:00:44
about all the factors that lead to the anxiety?
1:00:48
Why is that person so activated? Why is their nervous system
1:00:52
so activated? Why do they feel unsafe? You know, like what
1:00:56
happened to that person as opposed to what gene got turned on
1:01:00
that, you know, led to all these. You know what I'm saying?
1:01:03
We're still looking at it in a very superficial way.
1:01:07
And in medicating it, instead of trying to address what's at
1:01:11
the root of that. Yes.
1:01:15
Which many times isn't rocket science at all. All you have to do is
1:01:19
teach a person. Oh, let me. Anxiety
1:01:23
is the wisdom of my body. There's something. There's something
1:01:26
to know here. There's something my body needs me to know.
1:01:31
And let's look at it in a way that helps me
1:01:34
understand what my unmet needs are, what needs
1:01:38
my attention. And we're not taught to do that.
1:01:42
We're taught to be afraid of our feelings and our
1:01:45
symptoms. We're taught that it's something
1:01:49
wrong, not that it's something wise.
1:01:52
Like we refer to
1:01:57
nervous system activation, like persistent anxiety and overwhelm,
1:02:01
and that so many of us are experiencing right now
1:02:06
as nervous system dysregulation.
1:02:10
Like it's something wrong. Like it's. The body is wrong,
1:02:14
which I don't see it that way. It's like, no, it's
1:02:17
persistent. It's extremely uncomfortable. But
1:02:21
my brain, my nervous system is all about
1:02:25
safety, is all about trying to keep me safe. So what signals
1:02:30
are my brain. Is my brain receiving
1:02:33
that shifts it into high gear
1:02:37
to keep me safe. Does that make sense? It's just
1:02:40
like looking at things and just kind of shifting the perspective that it's
1:02:44
meaningful rather than something bad, something
1:02:48
wrong, pathologizing it. But we love. We like to do that
1:02:52
in our culture. Everything has a. Everything has
1:02:55
a name,
1:02:59
a disease box. You
1:03:03
know, and really we could be
1:03:07
in dialogue with the symptom.
1:03:11
That's right. Or have someone help you have that dialogue. Because it can
1:03:14
be really hard when you're really uncomfortable. Really. I'm
1:03:18
someone who've, you know, experienced anxiety on and off my whole life.
1:03:22
I know how uncomfortable it is and what
1:03:26
it says. I'm in trouble. I mean, it screams, you
1:03:30
know, it's just really hard to work with sometimes. So
1:03:34
you need somebody who has that whole person
1:03:38
orientation, who is trauma informed, who
1:03:41
can help you navigate what the message of that anxiety
1:03:45
is, which doesn't mean we don't. We also
1:03:49
learn tools to, like, soothe and settle our nervous systems. I think
1:03:53
that's really important. I think there's so many triggers in
1:03:56
our. In our world right now. I think people are
1:04:00
anxious. People are anxious who didn't used to be, you know, it's just really
1:04:04
overwhelming right now. Yeah.
1:04:08
But it's just reconnect. Reconnect to yourself. Reconnect to
1:04:12
your body. Everybody needs to have, like, a presence, practice of some
1:04:16
sort. Even if it's. You go out for a slow walk in the
1:04:20
neighborhood or in the woods, or you, you know, you sit and you
1:04:23
stroke your dog and pet your dog and. Or
1:04:27
sit in meditation, you know, whatever. It doesn't even matter. But a way to,
1:04:31
like, reconnect and create safety
1:04:35
for yourself so you can navigate all
1:04:38
these things that you need to navigate.
1:04:43
Okay. I feel like I just. I'm going to zip up. No, I love it.
1:04:46
I'm just going to let this flow. It's so good.
1:04:50
Oh, gosh. It's such a. It's. You know, Karen,
1:04:54
I really appreciate you articulating and expressing all of
1:04:57
that because I think it helps
1:05:01
us all to feel held and safer to hear
1:05:05
your wisdom. So thank you. Oh, you're welcome.
1:05:10
And how can we find you?
1:05:14
Are you. Are you taking clients and you have a book coming
1:05:18
out. Those were three. It's actually. It's called Unbroken
1:05:22
Reclaim. Your wholeness. And everything we talked about is in there. And
1:05:26
then some. The ebook is out for some.
1:05:29
Somehow the different versions of the book just all got onto their own
1:05:32
schedules in spite of my best efforts. So the
1:05:36
ebook is out. The audiobook should be. I love it all. Who knows
1:05:40
what's happening? And the.
1:05:46
The print version Is available for pre order. Will be out on
1:05:50
January 11th. Audiobook should hit anytime.
1:05:54
And my website is
1:05:56
karenshanksmd.com so everything
1:06:00
hap that I'm doing is. Is there. And I'm in the process of
1:06:03
creating some. And it's in its
1:06:07
infancy right now. I had to have the mind
1:06:10
space to start imagining it. But I want to take the book
1:06:15
and everything that's in there and create a
1:06:18
sanctuary online for people with chronic illness,
1:06:23
chronic suffering, people who are interested
1:06:26
in the themes you and I talked about, who
1:06:31
perhaps want to just create more resilience in their lives.
1:06:35
But I'm calling it the sanctuary because I want it to feel
1:06:39
like a safe place for people to land, to begin it, to
1:06:42
begin their journey in a very compassionate and
1:06:46
curious and open way.
1:06:49
Beautiful. Coming not here yet. Coming
1:06:54
in creation.
1:06:58
On the way. Being birthed at some point. That's right. But
1:07:02
yes, it is, I think, a wonderful idea
1:07:05
to create a healing space. Because, you know, I do
1:07:09
think. I don't know there. These complex
1:07:12
situations, like sometimes I hear about.
1:07:17
I've mentioned this as an example on the podcast before, but I was listening to
1:07:21
some other podcasts that I don't normally listen to, and there was a young woman
1:07:24
on there who mentioned that she had a new diagnosis of
1:07:29
some kind of like, premenstrual. It was a new
1:07:33
kind of premenstrual diagnosis that
1:07:37
where the cluster of symptoms was. Sounded just awful.
1:07:40
Even worse than what we think of as really bad pms. Yeah.
1:07:44
To the point that suicidal ideation was part of your monthly
1:07:48
experience. Sure. And
1:07:53
her, you know, and she was like, you know, so I really want to raise
1:07:56
awareness about this so they do more research on this
1:08:00
condition. Because, you know, right now it's like
1:08:04
I was offered like a hysterectomy. Wow.
1:08:08
And I think like some. Some kind of prescription that didn't. That didn't
1:08:12
help. Yeah. Yeah. So there's so many
1:08:15
people just sitting in these terrible
1:08:18
situations, getting terrible feedback.
1:08:22
Yeah. And she really just thinks she has to sit there and live with that
1:08:25
until there's a new drug. Right,
1:08:29
right. So that's the mistake of naming something,
1:08:33
sticking it into a disease box.
1:08:38
And I don't know what this disorder is. I can only imagine. And
1:08:41
then establishing some kind of
1:08:44
protocol for treating it, and then all the
1:08:48
curiosity ends. Right. Because this is not just
1:08:51
a person who fits this cat, you know, this box, but
1:08:55
this is a person who. And. And there may be. Let's say there
1:08:59
are millions of women who have this sort of constellation of. Of
1:09:03
problems. But for each one, it's going to be a different
1:09:07
scenario. Right. The. The.
1:09:11
The triggers, the. What needs to be unraveled and
1:09:15
understood, the unmet needs, the. The therapies, they're
1:09:18
all. They're going to be different for every single one. And that's just.
1:09:23
That's. It's a tragedy.
1:09:27
Yeah. And I. To me, the biggest part
1:09:31
of that tragedy was the hopelessness that she was left with.
1:09:34
That's right. That there's nothing else to be done. Well, I hope she's listening
1:09:38
today and I hope that she hears that
1:09:42
yet. Yeah. No, your journey's just begun. You got
1:09:45
to experience a way of looking at your situation
1:09:49
now. Everything we said about epigenetics,
1:09:53
neuroplasticity, there's absolutely a way out.
1:09:58
There's absolutely a way back to wholeness.
1:10:03
Yes. So thanks for sharing that.
1:10:07
Yeah. And thank you, Karen. And thank you, everyone, for being here.
1:10:10
There is a way back to wholeness. You can order Karen's book. Book
1:10:14
and visit her website and work with
1:10:18
her. Are you available? I didn't. I'm taking
1:10:22
limited availability, but I do. So if anyone is
1:10:25
interested, my email address is on my
1:10:28
website. Just shoot me an email, tell me in just a few
1:10:32
sentences why, what you need help with, and
1:10:35
we'll. We'll see. Just look at my website. It talk. It
1:10:39
talks through how to work with me, what the process is,
1:10:42
what my philosophy is and what have you
1:10:46
to see if that resonates with you. Love
1:10:50
it. And, Karen, thank you for
1:10:54
the career that you've led and combining all of the different areas that
1:10:57
you've combined. I hear from a lot of people who have
1:11:01
MDs, they're like, oh, God, I don't know why I did that. I'm like, we
1:11:04
needed you, too. Thank you for doing it. We
1:11:07
need it. Thank you. We need some of you on the
1:11:11
inside. I don't feel like
1:11:15
I'm on the inside, but I. Yeah, well, you're really not anymore, but
1:11:18
you started out on the inside, and I think that's good. I think it's. Yes.
1:11:22
Yeah. No, you're on the fringes now. Thank goodness.
1:11:28
Okay. Thanks so much, Garrett. Thank you.