Latest / Inside Politics / Anthony Albanese interview: Police prayer disruption at Herzog protest needs ‘full explanation’

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Anthony Albanese interview: Police prayer disruption at Herzog protest needs ‘full explanation’ · Inside Politics

0:00
S1: Hello and welcome to Inside Politics. I'm Jacqueline Maley. We're
0:03
S1: bringing you a very special extra episode of the podcast
0:06
S1: today because the prime minister, Anthony Albanese, had an opening
0:09
S1: in his diary and he's granted us an audience. So
0:12
S1: we're very happy to welcome the Prime Minister to the pod.
0:15
S1: He's joining us from the Canberra studio just after Question
0:18
S1: Time on Thursday, along with our chief political correspondent, Paul Chuckle. Hello, Pam.
0:23
S2: Good afternoon. Good to be with you.
0:25
S1: It's very nice to have you. Now tell me, are
0:28
S1: you the happiest man in Canberra right now with the coalition,
0:31
S1: your opposition at an all time nadir?
0:34
S2: Well, we're just doing what our job is, which is
0:38
S2: to try to address immediate pressures which are there on
0:42
S2: cost of living, to make sure that we deliver on
0:46
S2: the promises that we took to the 2025 election, but
0:50
S2: also to set Australia up in what is very challenging
0:55
S2: times globally as well. So I've been busy focused on that?
1:00
S2: The coalition or the former coalition or. I'm not sure
1:04
S2: what they are these days have been focused on themselves.
1:08
S1: Do you have any reflections on it, though? I mean,
1:10
S1: you you've been in the Labour Party at times when
1:12
S1: it's been in somewhat of disarray. And so you know
1:15
S1: what it's like to be inside that. Do you have
1:17
S1: any reflections from the other side?
1:19
S2: This is the worst I've seen. Uh, I was openly
1:25
S2: have said that the Labour Party decisions that we made
1:29
S2: in focusing on internals as one of the things that
1:33
S2: meant that we only lasted for two terms, even though
1:38
S2: I believe under both Kevin Rudd and Julia Gillard, we
1:42
S2: delivered really important reforms in climate change and gender equity
1:47
S2: in the schools program in so many areas. We saw
1:52
S2: Australia through the global financial crisis, but because we were
1:56
S2: focused on Internals too much. Australians marked us down and
2:03
S2: they'll mark down the liberals and the National Party. They
2:07
S2: are doing that. The issue that I think is very
2:11
S2: much there, though, is I can't see how they get
2:14
S2: out of this spiral. You have had a very close
2:19
S2: election of Sussan Ley over Angus Taylor just months ago,
2:24
S2: and an undermining of the first woman to lead the
2:28
S2: Liberal Party from day one. Angus Taylor has not done
2:32
S2: his job as shadow defence minister, has barely uttered a
2:36
S2: word in his portfolio. And what that will do is
2:40
S2: lead to an ongoing rolling maul, if you like, of
2:46
S2: dissent and division. And I can't see how they get
2:54
S2: out of it. The liberals don't like each other, the
2:56
S2: nationals don't like each other and the liberals don't like
2:59
S2: the nationals. And as a result, One Nation have seen
3:03
S2: their vote or their their polling at least increased substantially.
3:09
S1: Mhm. I want to ask you about your visit this
3:12
S1: week that you obviously hosted the Israeli president, Isaac Herzog
3:15
S1: in Canberra. You've often said that Australians don't want overseas
3:19
S1: conflicts imported here onto our shores. That wasn't the intention
3:23
S1: of the Herzog visit obviously, but it has been a
3:25
S1: consequence of it hasn't it?
3:28
S2: Oh, certainly. And many people, I think, have, uh, failed
3:34
S2: to look at the context of this visit. And the
3:38
S2: context of this visit is at 15, Australians had their
3:41
S2: lives cut short when the terrorist atrocity occurred, driven by
3:47
S2: anti-Semitism on December 14th. So President Herzog is not a
3:52
S2: member of the Netanyahu government. He is the head of state,
3:55
S2: the equivalent of Governor General Sam Mostyn. He came primarily
4:01
S2: to give comfort to the those who are grieving directly
4:08
S2: the families. The time that I spent with him was
4:10
S2: primarily at the Chabad synagogue in Bondi, talking face to
4:17
S2: face with people like young Matilda's mum and dad, her
4:22
S2: sister talking with other people who are grieving as part
4:27
S2: of what overwhelmingly was members of that very tight knit
4:31
S2: community led by Rabbi Ulman. So that was the purpose
4:36
S2: of the visit. I understand that people feel very strongly
4:42
S2: about the Middle East. Uh, and I understand that people
4:46
S2: also have a right to express their views about the
4:51
S2: Middle East and about what has occurred there, whether it
4:56
S2: be the atrocity that occurred on October 7th, the largest
5:02
S2: anti-Semitic loss of Jewish life since the Holocaust. Whether it
5:07
S2: be the extraordinary number of innocent lives that have been
5:12
S2: lost in Gaza, the actions of the Israeli government that
5:17
S2: my government has been critical of over humanitarian aid and
5:23
S2: relief being able to be presented there, and certainly people
5:27
S2: have a right to express that, but they they need
5:31
S2: to comprehend that sometimes the actions don't actually advance a cause.
5:38
S2: They they undermine it. Uh, and, uh, that is what
5:43
S2: has occurred, I think, on a number of occasions. I
5:47
S2: am concerned. I'm concerned that the great deal of hurt, uh,
5:52
S2: which the Muslim community are feeling about the disruption of prayers.
5:58
S2: I understand that, and I think that is something that
6:02
S2: needs a full explanation. I know that that has caused
6:06
S2: a great deal of distress. I think one of the
6:09
S2: things that we need to do is just have a
6:12
S2: little bit more empathy and kindness in the way that
6:16
S2: we deal with issues, even issues that are difficult. You
6:20
S2: can have a strong position on the Middle East and
6:23
S2: on justice for Palestinians, and I support a Palestinian state
6:28
S2: being alongside the Israeli state, and my government is the
6:32
S2: first government to recognise Palestine. That doesn't mean that you
6:37
S2: can't empathise and understand that the Jewish community are really
6:42
S2: hurting in Australia, not just those directly affected. And to
6:47
S2: reach out as Australians in what has been a very
6:52
S2: difficult time.
6:54
S1: Nonetheless, if you're talking about advancing a cause and you
6:58
S1: know actions towards advancing a cause, your overall cause of
7:01
S1: social cohesion and advancing social cohesion, the president's visit hasn't
7:05
S1: really advanced social cohesion, has it?
7:07
S2: Well, the president's visit was about him providing comfort and
7:15
S2: solidarity with people who are grieving. Now people can have
7:21
S2: criticism of the actions of the Netanyahu government are entitled
7:26
S2: to express that. The issue, though, of the president and
7:32
S2: his visit here was about meeting with members of the
7:36
S2: community who are grieving. And one of the things I
7:41
S2: said in Parliament the other day is that in terms
7:45
S2: of the broader issues, there are two paths in the
7:49
S2: Middle East. One is the path possible path of peace
7:56
S2: and reconciliation and a settlement which gives Palestinian justice, but
8:06
S2: also recognizes the right of Israel to exist within secure borders,
8:13
S2: to have security assured its right to defend itself. Uh,
8:20
S2: or the status quo, which is has been there for
8:24
S2: decades now of a very strong state of Israel, uh,
8:30
S2: with people, Palestinians, uh, being, uh, oppressed people, people who
8:39
S2: don't have any self-determination, people who suffer from poverty, uh,
8:46
S2: people who are in an extraordinarily difficult position. And, you
8:53
S2: need to have a path that improves that situation because
9:01
S2: the the biggest victims are yes, Palestinians are suffering continue
9:09
S2: to suffer, but Israelis suffer as well, with a failure
9:12
S2: to have security on a day to day basis because
9:16
S2: of terrorist attacks, not just October 7th, but others as well.
9:20
S2: And how do you actually provide a solution? A solution must,
9:26
S2: by definition, include engagement with both Israelis and Palestinians. That's
9:32
S2: the only way that any conflict has ever been advanced.
9:37
S2: And if conflict is allowed to continue, the biggest suffering
9:43
S2: occurs to the less powerful group, not the more powerful.
9:50
S2: And that's why if people are serious about advancing the
9:58
S2: life of Palestinians, they can't simply say the sort of
10:03
S2: simplistic slogans, you know, from the River to the sea
10:08
S2: is about one state, from Jordan River to the sea.
10:11
S2: Israel isn't about to exist and not exist. Israel will
10:17
S2: fight for its existence and that will mean ongoing conflict.
10:24
S2: And that's why we actually genuinely need a two state solution,
10:28
S2: not a one state solution. And that's something that I
10:33
S2: advocate publicly. I say the same thing privately. I spoke
10:38
S2: with Prime Minister Netanyahu before we recognized Palestine at the
10:45
S2: United Nations. I gave him that courtesy and engaged very
10:52
S2: directly in Australia's view about the need to move forward.
10:59
S3: The New South Wales Premier, Chris Minns, has backed in
11:03
S3: the police response and he's repeatedly emphasized that the protesters
11:06
S3: were given an alternative site and made their way to
11:09
S3: an area that was deemed illegal. How much blame do
11:11
S3: you put at the feet of the demonstrators? And also, overall,
11:15
S3: I know you mentioned one element of the police response there,
11:17
S3: but should there be a review into how heavy handed
11:19
S3: police were?
11:21
S2: Look, overwhelmingly, uh, you have to recognise as well there's
11:26
S2: a difference. I draw a distinction between the leaders of
11:29
S2: the demonstration, some of whom are part of far left parties,
11:35
S2: such as, uh, Josh Lees. And overwhelmingly, a whole lot
11:40
S2: of people would have just gone because they care about
11:43
S2: these issues and went along to peacefully express their views.
11:49
S2: But the organizers were engaged with the police. They chose
11:54
S2: not to come up with or participate in a sensible
11:59
S2: way that would have ensured separation by having the meeting
12:04
S2: in Hyde Park and then walking marching to Belmore Park. Uh,
12:09
S2: it is beyond my comprehension why that would not be
12:15
S2: taken up. That suggestion by the New South Wales Police. Now,
12:21
S2: I also, as I've said, I want to see an explanation.
12:26
S2: I'm very empathetic about the hurt that's being felt by
12:29
S2: the Muslim community of prayers being disrupted.
12:31
S3: Yes. You're concern is specifically around that element.
12:34
S2: I think that is, uh, an issue that needs addressing, uh,
12:39
S2: because I think people need to have a right to
12:45
S2: practice their faith in peace. And, you know, some of
12:49
S2: the footage. Of course, you need to be careful about
12:52
S2: footage because you don't get to see the full picture. Um,
12:56
S2: but what I have seen is the truth is that
12:59
S2: there has been a lot of disruption. Uh, there has been, uh.
13:05
S3: Caused by the demonstrators.
13:06
S2: Over a period of time. There are elements who've been
13:10
S2: involved in the campaign, including some of the action that's
13:13
S2: taken place very directly, uh, in my office, uh, where
13:18
S2: people have been stopped from getting assistance for Medicare, Social Security,
13:25
S2: everything else. It's not a policy office. It's there to
13:28
S2: help constituents in the inner west of Sydney. And people
13:31
S2: have found that it's acceptable to put stink bombs into
13:36
S2: the office, to destroy some of the office, break windows, graffiti, uh,
13:44
S2: abused people, um, accused people trying to go to mass
13:50
S2: because it was in the grounds of the Anglican Church
13:55
S2: and part of their premises, and some of the behavior
14:00
S2: does nothing whatsoever to advance the Palestinian cause or anything else.
14:08
S1: Pam, you've sort of been on both sides of it,
14:10
S1: haven't you, because you obviously copped a lot of criticism
14:13
S1: for your handling of the massacre and of anti-Semitism in general.
14:17
S1: And that was, you know, really the narrative of the summer,
14:20
S1: which I'm sure was very personally difficult for you, among
14:22
S1: other things. And on the other side, as you say,
14:25
S1: in in your hometown, in your electorate in Marrickville, you've
14:29
S1: had huge sort of vociferous protests from the pro-Palestinian movement
14:33
S1: or elements thereof. Now that the worst of that sort
14:36
S1: of backlash from the summer is over, how do you
14:40
S1: reflect on on that period and what have you learned
14:43
S1: from that period.
14:46
S2: That you have to keep to a principle path. That
14:52
S2: part of what has occurred is because we haven't, as
14:59
S2: I said in Parliament the other day, viewed this as
15:02
S2: like a football team game where you're cheering on every
15:08
S2: tackle that South Sydney make and hoping that the other
15:12
S2: side drop the ball totally the whole way through. There
15:16
S2: needs to be nuance in this debate and there's too
15:20
S2: much anger. And one of the things that is very
15:25
S2: clear to me is that overwhelmingly, Australians don't want the
15:32
S2: conflict in the Middle East to continue. They want innocent
15:36
S2: people to be protected, whether they be Israelis or Palestinians,
15:40
S2: but they also don't want people to bring conflict here
15:45
S2: of of any of any sort. Uh, so we have
15:50
S2: taken a principled position. You're right. That's meant, uh, criticism
15:55
S2: that is completely contradictory. Uh, and that to me, uh,
16:00
S2: you know, you have to when you're in a position
16:03
S2: of responsibility, uh, you have to deal with that. But
16:08
S2: one of the things that I would say is that
16:11
S2: after other national tragedies have occurred, whether it be the
16:16
S2: Lindt cafe siege, Port Arthur, the Bali bombing, uh, there
16:21
S2: hasn't been a politicization of it. Here, there was an
16:26
S2: attempt to secure political advantage, uh, perceived within 24 hours. And, uh, that,
16:35
S2: to me, is entirely inappropriate. I can't conceive as a
16:39
S2: political leader of seeing an event such as that and going, okay,
16:45
S2: what are the politics of this? It's a time for
16:48
S2: national unity and for the country to come together. And
16:53
S2: people chose very consciously. Some people chose. And I draw
16:58
S2: a big distinction between the engagement of some political figures
17:06
S2: and the response of the local community. I was sitting
17:10
S2: in the lounge rooms of members of the Chabad community
17:14
S2: in Bondi, the synagogue engaging with Rabbi Ulman, engaging with
17:19
S2: many members of the community very directly, visiting people in hospital, engaging,
17:26
S2: having people in my office at Kirribilli House, having meetings,
17:30
S2: having that engagement. And they were warm, generous and kind.
17:36
S2: They weren't looking at pointing fingers. What they were looking
17:39
S2: at was a community that was grieving. And that response
17:43
S2: stood in stark contrast to some of the media coverage,
17:48
S2: which wouldn't have perceived that at all. And I made
17:51
S2: a conscious decision to not take TV cameras with me
17:57
S2: wherever I went, to look for this as an opportunity,
18:02
S2: I saw this as a responsibility. Firstly, what did we
18:05
S2: need to do to keep Australians safe? That was the
18:07
S2: immediate issue that we had to do, not to engage
18:12
S2: in the sort of politics that we saw, and we
18:16
S2: did that. And I think that the engagement, some of
18:20
S2: the political rhetoric that was ramped up came back on
18:25
S2: the people who used it. And that's why we saw,
18:28
S2: for example, after all of the rhetoric that occurred, the
18:32
S2: National Party didn't vote for a single change. Did they
18:36
S2: support not gun laws, not racial vilification, not hate speech laws?
18:42
S2: And the Liberal Party had, uh, issues quite clearly that
18:47
S2: we've seen with that. Uh, well, uh, we just engaged
18:51
S2: from a principled point of view of what do we
18:55
S2: need to do to keep people safe, and how do we, uh,
19:00
S2: advance that in the future as well?
19:02
S3: You've characterized the Bondi backlash, Prime Minister, as driven in
19:07
S3: large part by by political actors. But looking back, do
19:10
S3: you acknowledge that you were on the wrong side for
19:13
S3: a fair chunk of time on the question of a
19:14
S3: Royal commission and the Royal Commission? Advocacy was much wider
19:17
S3: than just being made by political actors. Do you do
19:20
S3: you regret some of the the arguments you made against
19:22
S3: it in that period, and do you wish you'd just
19:24
S3: moved more quickly?
19:25
S2: To be clear, um, a royal commission was announced by
19:29
S2: New South Wales. We said we would fully participate in that.
19:33
S2: So that was done. The immediate thing that we needed
19:35
S2: to do was to assess in that week and Days
19:42
S2: and an early period after December 14th. Were these people
19:48
S2: part of a cell? Was there going to be another
19:52
S2: attack in Sydney or somewhere else? Which is a pattern
19:55
S2: that we have seen from terrorist attacks overseas. What was
20:00
S2: the connections between the Akram's and international organizations? We knew
20:05
S2: they were inspired by ISIS, but were there any international
20:09
S2: actors here involved as well?
20:12
S3: What's the answer to that?
20:13
S2: What did we need? Well, there'll be a royal commission,
20:16
S2: but it would appear from the initial assessments and we
20:23
S2: had to find out where had they gone? They'd hired
20:26
S2: the place at Lakemba. Where were they trained? They trained
20:28
S2: down at the farm on the south coast. Why were
20:33
S2: they on the Philippines? What was the connection there? So
20:35
S2: we engage with all of our intelligence agencies. And the assessment,
20:39
S2: as the director general of aphasia, said to Senate estimates,
20:43
S2: is that all of the initial assessment up to this
20:48
S2: point is that they acted alone as a father and
20:51
S2: son team, and that is part of the issue is
20:54
S2: it's very difficult to detect because there's not electronic activity
21:00
S2: between them. So it was that within the week we
21:03
S2: had announced that we would have Dennis Richardson, the most
21:08
S2: senior person to look at intelligence security issues. We also
21:13
S2: said we wouldn't wait to have an inquiry that would
21:17
S2: report in a year's time. We would bring Parliament back
21:20
S2: and legislate when that was required, both over guns, where
21:24
S2: I convened a national cabinet meeting the next day on
21:28
S2: the Monday afternoon, and we would look at hate speech
21:32
S2: laws as well, because we identified that as an issue.
21:37
S2: So we bear in mind as well, this was over
21:40
S2: Christmas and New Year period. The National Security Committee met
21:46
S2: each and every day. We also in between, uh, the
21:52
S2: this period, you couldn't announce. Can you imagine? Just go
21:56
S2: back a little bit about some of the rhetoric and
21:58
S2: the engagement of some of the political actors. Have we
22:02
S2: said we're going to have a royal commission, but we
22:03
S2: won't tell you who the royal commissioner will be. We
22:06
S2: won't tell you what the terms of reference will be.
22:09
S2: That would have been, in my view, disruptive and would
22:13
S2: have ensured when you look at the attacks that were made,
22:16
S2: personal attacks by people who should know better against a
22:20
S2: former High Court justice in Virginia Bell, than the undermining
22:25
S2: of the Royal commission would have occurred had we not
22:28
S2: been in a position to have a comprehensive announcement.
22:32
S3: That argument, though, indicates that you were thinking about it
22:34
S3: and prepared to move on it as you argue in
22:37
S3: publicly against it. But anyway, let's not, let's not.
22:40
S2: Well, no. Be very clear that, uh, the New South
22:44
S2: Wales premier announced a royal commission. We said we would
22:48
S2: fully cooperate with it and have all of the federal
22:52
S2: agencies that would have effectively been in New South Wales
22:55
S2: and Commonwealth Royal Commission. What was occurring at that time
23:00
S2: was people weren't looking for agreement or consensus or moving
23:05
S2: things forward. With every single announcement. People were looking for
23:09
S2: distinction and difference. And I understand at that time as
23:14
S2: well that grieving families, uh, who I was meeting with
23:19
S2: and having some really tough conversations, I accept that part
23:23
S2: of my job as prime minister is to be a
23:26
S2: bit of a shock absorber for the nation, for people
23:31
S2: who were grieving at that time, and I have so
23:34
S2: much sympathy for them. Uh, my disagreement is with some
23:40
S2: of the political actors at that time.
23:42
S3: I'll just quickly move on to one more Herzog question,
23:44
S3: and then we'll move on to some policy stuff. Um,
23:47
S3: as you've noted, Isaac Herzog is not a domestic ally
23:50
S3: of the Prime Minister. I wonder if in your conversations
23:53
S3: with him this week, perhaps at the Kirribilli, without divulging
23:55
S3: too much detail, what did you learn about the domestic
23:58
S3: situation in Israel? The settlements issue the prospect of two states, uh,
24:03
S3: Benjamin Netanyahu's political future. Did you learn much?
24:06
S2: Well, we have private conversations. And my private conversations stay private,
24:10
S2: whether they're with.
24:12
S3: Go high level.
24:12
S2: Whether whether they're with the president of Israel or the
24:16
S2: president of the United States or or with, uh, President XI, uh,
24:22
S2: I engage. That's one of the ways that Australia is
24:25
S2: able to engage internationally with respect. And, uh, that is
24:31
S2: something that I do in a respectful way. And I
24:36
S2: was very pleased to. I know, President Herzog, if it's
24:41
S2: not the first meal that we've had together, and he's
24:45
S2: a former leader of the Israeli Labor Party, he is
24:50
S2: someone who is someone who has a broad experience politically.
24:58
S2: We first met, I think, probably more than two decades ago.
25:02
S3: Did this heal relations with Australia as he as he
25:05
S3: said he'd aim to do this.
25:07
S2: I believe is a positive thing that, uh, was able
25:14
S2: to occur. He you always have to look at the counterfactual. Uh,
25:20
S2: for those people who say that President Herzog should not
25:27
S2: have been allowed to come to Australia. Can you imagine
25:30
S2: the message that that would send to the world, frankly, that, uh,
25:37
S2: We denied the head of state of, uh, of Israel
25:43
S2: the opportunity upon invitation, particularly from the families at Bondi, uh,
25:51
S2: to come and grieve with them. Uh, that to my mind,
25:57
S2: people need to always look at, uh, the consequences and
26:03
S2: the counterfactual of of where it sits now, President Herzog overwhelmingly, uh,
26:10
S2: engaged in, I think, an appropriate and respectful way. That
26:16
S2: doesn't mean, like any other leader, uh, person. That doesn't
26:20
S2: mean that, you know, I endorse all views or anything else.
26:25
S2: That's not what it was about. Overwhelmingly, uh, President Herzog
26:29
S2: and I might say Mrs. Herzog as well, uh, comforting,
26:32
S2: particularly the women who were grieving. There was something that
26:37
S2: was very moving.
26:39
S3: That's good to hear. Last year, PM was a year
26:43
S3: of delivery for you between May and the end of
26:45
S3: the year. Ticking off election promises. What's this year about
26:48
S3: on policy and direction for this government and your own?
26:51
S2: Well, continuing to deliver and consolidate, continuing to make sure
26:57
S2: that we deliver on cost of living because we know
27:01
S2: people continue to be under financial pressure. Setting up a
27:07
S2: Australia for the future. So one of the things that
27:11
S2: we did in the lead up to the election was
27:14
S2: to commit to measures that built on what we had
27:18
S2: done earlier in the term. Most of those now have
27:22
S2: been implemented, but they're being rolled out. So making sure
27:26
S2: that we deliver on the commitments. So the opening of
27:29
S2: the urgent care clinics, the free TAFE, the other measures
27:34
S2: that we have and frankly, a range of them are
27:37
S2: exceeding expectations. The batteries program, the tripling of the bulk
27:41
S2: billing incentive, the number of people now 2.5 million people
27:46
S2: have been through urgent care clinics, 725,000 on on free tape,
27:50
S2: those measures. But getting the economy strengthened as well. How
27:54
S2: do we set up future growth? The productivity challenge is ongoing.
27:58
S2: It's not easy. Areas like critical minerals as well. The
28:03
S2: deal that we have with the United States, but the
28:05
S2: arrangements we have with other countries as well, the Prime
28:09
S2: Minister of Canada will be here in just a few
28:11
S2: weeks time. There's a lot that we can do with Canada,
28:16
S2: our relations in the region as well. In the past
28:19
S2: three weeks, we've had an agreement, an upgrade in the
28:23
S2: relationship with Timor-Leste, an important treaty with Indonesia. This is
28:29
S2: a very significant agreement going forward with a very important neighbor.
28:35
S2: And so setting us up in what are turbulent times,
28:40
S2: how do we improve? Continue to improve and consolidate relations
28:44
S2: with Pacific Island Forum with Asean nations, as well as
28:49
S2: with our traditional allies in the United States, the United Kingdom,
28:53
S2: as well as our European partners.
28:56
S1: Prime Minister, do you think the capital gains tax discount
28:59
S1: is fair?
29:01
S2: Look, we think that the capital gains tax discount was
29:04
S2: something that was brought in by the Howard government. It
29:09
S2: is something that, uh, was, uh, an assessment made at
29:15
S2: that time. Uh, we've said, uh, we'll consider a range
29:19
S2: of issues in the lead up to the budget in May,
29:25
S2: and we'll do our usual deliberative way, uh, an orderly way, uh,
29:32
S2: that we conduct ourselves.
29:34
S1: I'm obviously trying to get a sharper answer out of
29:36
S1: you and your jousting me away. I'm glad.
29:39
S2: You noticed.
29:40
S1: Yeah. Intergenerational equity. A lens that you're going to be
29:44
S1: applying to the upcoming federal budget in May. Can I
29:47
S1: ask that question?
29:48
S2: It's a lens that we put across everything. It's why
29:52
S2: we had the 20% reduction in student debt that the
29:57
S2: coalition say is waste, because we know that it's harder
30:01
S2: for younger people to have a crack at why we've
30:04
S2: done free TAFE. It's why we're doing the university hubs
30:08
S2: as well. It's why we will look at the impact
30:14
S2: as well of the, the, the tax system. It's why
30:18
S2: we have targeted. If you look at the tax cuts
30:21
S2: that we're putting in place this year and next year,
30:24
S2: that lower rate will particularly assist young people, because that
30:30
S2: first marginal tax rate impacts a whole lot of people
30:33
S2: who are working part time or who are just entering
30:36
S2: the workforce. It's why we've concentrated on that. And we
30:39
S2: made the very difficult and some might say at the time,
30:42
S2: courageous decision to change stage three of the tax cuts.
30:48
S1: Sure. And if you wanted to continue that theme of,
30:51
S1: you know, helping young people in particular and in particular
30:54
S1: around housing, then you're going to have to look at
30:56
S1: the tax arrangements around housing.
30:58
S2: The big issue, of course, in housing is supply. So
31:02
S2: how do you look at increasing supply? There's a range
31:06
S2: of measures that we're doing. The 5% deposits has helped.
31:11
S2: Tens of thousands already have had their homes their first
31:17
S2: home approved as a result of that. Uh, we are
31:21
S2: looking as well at how we reserve, uh, new home
31:27
S2: builds for for first home buyers. We announce the first
31:30
S2: deal You. In South Australia, 17,000 new homes, 7000 are
31:36
S2: reserved for first home buyers in the northern suburbs of Adelaide,
31:42
S2: and will be rolling out more of these measures right
31:46
S2: across the country.
31:47
S3: You've, um, you've definitely not ruling out capital gains tax.
31:51
S3: You have ruled out negative gearing changes. What about what
31:54
S3: about trusts?
31:55
S2: Oh, look, we're not getting in the rule in rule
31:58
S2: out game as much as you try. Talk to me on, uh,
32:02
S2: the you know, the budget is the second Tuesday in May.
32:06
S2: You can have us on after that. And then I'll
32:09
S2: talk about the budget.
32:10
S3: What are your thoughts on tightening up Truss?
32:12
S2: Our thoughts are that what we do is we put
32:16
S2: together a budget. And obviously our focus at the beginning
32:19
S2: of this year has been on the national security measures.
32:24
S2: So we will have a proper budget process. That's what
32:28
S2: we do. We're an orderly government.
32:29
S3: I'll take that as not.
32:30
S2: The other side are a rebel.
32:33
S3: I'll take that as not closing the door on trust.
32:34
S3: Just one more on the budget process.
32:36
S2: You can ask all of those things. It becomes a game.
32:39
S3: But you do rule out negative gearing. So the difference
32:41
S3: in language.
32:42
S2: It all becomes a game.
32:43
S3: It's a game we have to play, unfortunately.
32:45
S1: Well we're not we're not interested in playing a game.
32:46
S1: We're trying to we're trying to get answers out of you.
32:49
S1: At least get some idea.
32:50
S2: What you'll do, though. What governments do is to work
32:55
S2: out full plans, a bit like refer to, you know,
33:00
S2: whether it's details of royal commissions or other things. You
33:03
S2: work out a full plan, you then go out, you
33:07
S2: announce it and you back it in. That's what we
33:09
S2: did over tax, whether it be the income tax changes
33:16
S2: that we made to stage three, where I went to
33:18
S2: the National Press Club, go back and have a look
33:20
S2: at the way that the Herald and The Age reported
33:22
S2: that the next day.
33:24
S1: What objectively and clearly.
33:25
S2: It was not glowing, let me tell you. And, uh,
33:29
S2: you know, there were political obituaries written for, uh, the
33:34
S2: government over the first period, but we knew what we
33:38
S2: were doing. We had our arguments. We'd gone through the
33:41
S2: detail in an orderly way. And similarly, the tax cuts
33:45
S2: that we put in place in last year's budget, it's
33:49
S2: not that long ago. Last year's budget were important measures. Uh,
33:55
S2: that will deliver will will increase, uh, the take home
34:00
S2: pay of working people this July and next July will
34:05
S2: work through a full comprehensive budget, and we'll make announcements.
34:10
S2: And then I'm happy to come on the podcast and
34:12
S2: talk about it.
34:12
S3: I've just got one more on the budget, more straightforward one.
34:16
S3: Ministers are talking about this budget as one where there's
34:18
S3: a real attempt to do some tightening. On the spending side,
34:21
S3: how ambitious are you to get some, uh, some spending
34:25
S3: cuts and saves in this budget? How lofty is your
34:28
S3: ceiling on what you can do there?
34:30
S2: We have always looked for saves. We've put $114 billion
34:34
S2: of savings already, and that's on top of what we've
34:39
S2: done is to bank revenue upgrades, some 70% of it
34:43
S2: under the former government. Most of the revenue upgrades they
34:47
S2: just spent and they had no saves in the last budget,
34:50
S2: not a dollar. So we had $20 billion of saves
34:54
S2: in the mid-year economic forecast just in December. So we'll
35:00
S2: go through. We've done that work. We'll continue to do work.
35:05
S2: The ICRC will step up its meetings over the next
35:09
S2: couple of months. And of course, we'll look for savings
35:13
S2: that are appropriate. I think people want to ensure that
35:17
S2: every dollar of public spending is making a difference in
35:22
S2: terms of improving the lives of Australians, not just immediately,
35:26
S2: but also some of the measures are about the long
35:31
S2: term change that is required, whether that be the health
35:35
S2: and hospitals agreement we've just done or the better funding
35:39
S2: for every public school.
35:41
S3: But it's.
35:42
S2: Been talked about for a long.
35:43
S3: Time. He's tightening up on spending a big focus of
35:45
S3: this budget.
35:46
S2: It always is. That's what we do.
35:50
S1: Prime Minister, as we record, the Liberal Party's preparing for
35:52
S1: a vote on their leadership with Angus Taylor contesting Sussan Ley.
35:56
S1: I want to ask you, what do you think of
35:58
S1: Angus Taylor as a person? I note that the labor
36:00
S1: side is very much trying to portray him as a
36:02
S1: blue blood, as a sort of Chino wearing, squattocracy type.
36:06
S1: But what's your experience of him behind closed doors or
36:08
S1: around the corridors of Parliament as an actual bloke?
36:12
S2: Uh, I haven't had that much to do with him.
36:14
S2: That's the the truth of the matter. I do think
36:17
S2: that he is one of, uh, those people on that
36:22
S2: side of politics who are, uh, I guess born to rule.
36:29
S2: That's the perception. And even the way that he's conducting
36:33
S2: this challenge is he's gone out there. He lost a
36:37
S2: ballot to Susan Lee. Um, he's been on strike since
36:42
S2: in terms of doing anything as shadow minister for defence,
36:46
S2: a pretty important portfolio. And, uh, last night he went
36:50
S2: out there and said he'd resign. Didn't even say he
36:54
S2: was challenging Susan Lee. It was extraordinary. And he's got
36:58
S2: no reason, uh, no policy reason for direction. It was
37:04
S2: almost like he might as well have said, uh, you know,
37:07
S2: vote for me and I'll advance world peace. It was extraordinary,
37:11
S2: the lack of detail or any thought whatsoever about a
37:17
S2: change in direction or any specific policies. And I know
37:22
S2: that my experience of him as a minister, uh, was
37:25
S2: diabolical as energy minister. And as you know, four gigawatts
37:30
S2: left the system and one gigawatt came into the system.
37:34
S1: Explain to listeners what you're talking about there.
37:36
S2: Yeah. He as energy minister, he was diabolical. And then
37:42
S2: as shadow treasurer, he opposed tax cuts. He opposed all
37:46
S2: of our cost of living relief. Uh, he went to
37:50
S2: an election arguing for higher taxes and higher deficits. Uh.
37:55
S2: It's diabolical. And the the idea that what the Liberal
38:01
S2: Party need is to become more right wing is, to me,
38:05
S2: to miss the message that has been given to them
38:09
S2: at the last election and the one before.
38:12
S1: Do you think there's been sexism in the way that
38:15
S1: the liberals and the nationals have treated the first Liberal,
38:19
S1: the first female leader of the Liberal Party, from your
38:22
S1: vantage point?
38:23
S2: I think certainly that It's fair to say Susan Lee
38:26
S2: hasn't been given a fair crack.
38:28
S1: But do you think that's partly because of her gender
38:30
S1: or in any way because of her gender?
38:32
S2: I think that the, the, the coalition, uh, have failed
38:38
S2: to understand that, uh, if you want to represent the
38:43
S2: Australian people, uh, half the Australian people or just a
38:46
S2: bit over, uh, women and on the range of issues, uh,
38:52
S2: they're dismissive of policy issues. The women's health program that
38:56
S2: we've implemented, the shutting of the gender pay gap, the
39:01
S2: pay increases in feminised industries like aged care and childcare. Uh,
39:06
S2: the measures that we have put in place, uh, have
39:10
S2: all been dismissed by the coalition. And I think that, uh,
39:14
S2: one of the pluses that the party I'm proud to
39:18
S2: lead have is we, we we look like the population, uh,
39:23
S2: where a majority of women in our caucus and around
39:27
S2: the cabinet table means that you get those voices and
39:32
S2: those issues heard. And I think that, uh, you know,
39:36
S2: the Liberal Party have failed to modernize. And I don't
39:41
S2: think Angus Taylor is at all in touch with, uh,
39:46
S2: the needs of, uh, Australians or the aspirations that Australians have.
39:51
S2: I think that, uh, there are many people in the
39:55
S2: Liberal Party who have always, never seen labor as being
40:01
S2: a legitimate government. And that's why, uh, in their critique,
40:05
S2: everything is always dialled up to 11. There's a complete
40:10
S2: failure to at least acknowledge that at the last election, uh,
40:17
S2: we received a considerable majority in the House of Representatives,
40:24
S2: and they continue to just oppose everything and not engage
40:29
S2: in any constructive way. I think they're suffering as well
40:33
S2: from the fact that Peter Dutton did keep their team united.
40:38
S2: That was something that he saw as a big plus.
40:40
S2: But he did that by them shrinking in on themselves,
40:43
S2: becoming more conservative, more introspective, less with a capacity to
40:51
S2: engage on issues like climate change, like equity issues, like
40:58
S2: what is needed to advance Australia's national interest in the
41:04
S2: times where we are.
41:06
S3: Is Andrew Hastie more dangerous than the Labor Party than
41:08
S3: Angus Taylor?
41:09
S2: Andrew Hastie is more right wing. Uh, you know, I
41:13
S2: think that Australians are looking for, uh, a government that
41:19
S2: is reasonable, uh, that listens to them, that's orderly and
41:25
S2: that is prepared to engage constructively. My government is an
41:32
S2: orderly government. We had a comprehensive platform we took to
41:37
S2: the election. We're delivering that platform. Our opponents are are
41:44
S2: good at identifying grievance and promoting division and trying to
41:51
S2: set Australian against Australian. But that's the One Nation agenda.
41:57
S2: And if you're going to be One nation light, why
41:59
S2: wouldn't people just vote for the real thing?
42:03
S1: Pam, you've been so generous with your time and we
42:05
S1: greatly appreciate it. We'll let you go. You've probably got
42:07
S1: some popcorn you need to eat while watching the, um,
42:10
S1: the Angus Taylor Sussan Ley stoush.
42:11
S2: Well, we have, uh, tomorrow I'll be at the, uh,
42:15
S2: the breakfast commemorate with members of the Stolen Generations who
42:20
S2: are here. One of the things that has occurred is
42:23
S2: the timing of the coalition. The coalition broke up the
42:28
S2: first time when Susan Lee was dealing with personal tragedy,
42:32
S2: the second time on the National day of mourning. They
42:37
S2: had meetings to plot the overthrow of Susan Lee on
42:42
S2: the morning of the funeral of Katie Allen, who was
42:46
S2: respected across the parliament. And then Angus Taylor resigned on
42:54
S2: the day that President Isaac Herzog was visiting the Parliament
42:59
S2: here in Canberra. And now, today and tomorrow is about
43:03
S2: closing the gap and respecting First Nations people and advancing reconciliation.
43:10
S2: And they have, uh, I think, with their timing on
43:15
S2: all of these events, just got it completely wrong. And
43:19
S2: it will really jar with people.
43:23
S1: Pam, thank you very much. And we'll hope. We hope
43:25
S1: we can have you back on soon before the budget.
43:27
S2: We hope indeed we can do that. And I can
43:30
S2: not answer Paul's questions again about the budget.
43:32
S3: So fruitful.
43:33
S1: We can play that play that game again, as you say,
43:36
S1: we've had fun. Thank you very much.
43:38
S2: Thanks very much.
43:45
S1: You can read all of our political news on our
43:47
S1: website or smh.com.au. Today's episode was produced by Kai Wong
43:55
S1: with help from Debbie Harrington. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills,
43:59
S1: and our podcasts are overseen by Lisa Muxworthy and Tom McKendrick.
44:05
S1: Before you go, follow Inside Politics and leave a review
44:08
S1: for us on Apple or Spotify. I'm Jacqueline Maley. Thank
44:12
S1: you for listening.