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The Takeover: Holly Brunnbauer on securing a book deal and social media tips that create true connections · The Book Deal

• 0:09
  Natasha Rai: This is the Book Deal podcast, monthly takeover by your host, Natasha Rai.
• 0:14
  Natasha Rai: I'll be bringing you even more debut and season authors as they talk about their path to publication.
• 0:26
  Madeleine Cleary: The book Deal podcast acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters, which it's recorded on and pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging.
• 0:39
  Natasha Rai: Holly Brunnbauer is a multi-award winning, emerging fiction author who has earned numerous accolades in writing competitions across Australia, New Zealand, and the US.
• 0:50
  Natasha Rai: She writes stories filled with heart, humor and hijinks.
• 0:54
  Natasha Rai: Her signature style includes a strong commercial voice, quirky cast, and putting the comm in romcom.
• 1:00
  Natasha Rai: Holly first caught the writing bug via blogging and later transitioned into copywriting.
• 1:05
  Natasha Rai: She's now a sought after virtual assistant for published and aspiring authors based in rural Victoria.
• 1:12
  Natasha Rai: She spends her time with her husband, two rambunctious boys, and a cheeky pug planning and building their off-grid country home.
• 1:20
  Natasha Rai: The outdoors is her happy place.
• 1:22
  Natasha Rai: Holly's debut novel, What Did I Miss?
• 1:25
  Natasha Rai: Is published by Harper Collins.
• 1:27
  Natasha Rai: This fresh and feisty romantic comedy explores what happens when you meet someone special before truly knowing yourself.
• 1:39
  Natasha Rai: Hi, Holly Brunnbauer.
• 1:40
  Natasha Rai: Welcome to the Book Deal Podcast.
• 1:43
  Holly Brunnbauer: Thank you so much for having me, Natasha.
• 1:45
  Natasha Rai: It's great to have you.
• 1:46
  Natasha Rai: How are you today?
• 1:48
  Holly Brunnbauer: I am feeling really good, actually.
• 1:49
  Holly Brunnbauer: I'm feeling nervous, excited.
• 1:52
  Natasha Rai: Mm.
• 1:53
  Natasha Rai: And so just for our listeners so that they are aware in terms of timing, we're having this conversation literally a month to the day that your debut novel What Did I Miss?
• 2:03
  Natasha Rai: will be out.
• 2:05
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yes, that's correct.
• 2:06
  Holly Brunnbauer: It's coming out on the 2nd of July.
• 2:08
  Natasha Rai: That's right.
• 2:09
  Natasha Rai: So I really wanna talk to you in a moment about how you're doing with that, but before we get to that, I think it will be really great, um, if you could give us your elevator pitch.
• 2:19
  Holly Brunnbauer: Fantastic.
• 2:20
  Holly Brunnbauer: Okay.
• 2:20
  Holly Brunnbauer: So What Did I Miss?
• 2:22
  Holly Brunnbauer: is a fresh and feisty rom-com about Mikayla, who is newly divorced and almost 30 and ready to tick off her list all the things she missed out on in her twenties, starting with a one night stand.
• 2:37
  Holly Brunnbauer: So she bangs a random guy from the bar.
• 2:40
  Holly Brunnbauer: And as fate would have it, not so random, he reappears in her life and suddenly she's fighting feelings she didn't sign up for.
• 2:49
  Holly Brunnbauer: And even if she wanted to date him, which she doesn't, she can't because her auntie is bribing her to stay single until her birthday in order to inherit something that she doesn't necessarily want, but her ex-husband desperately does.
• 3:05
  Holly Brunnbauer: And there is nothing Mikayla would love more than to get back at him for the shitty thing he did that ended their marriage.
• 3:11
  Holly Brunnbauer: So the question is, can Mikayla stay single until her 30th birthday and tick off all the experiences she thought she missed out on?
• 3:21
  Holly Brunnbauer: Or will she start a new decade with more regrets?
• 3:26
  Natasha Rai: Oh, love it.
• 3:26
  Natasha Rai: What a great pitch.
• 3:28
  Natasha Rai: Now I have to admit, um, you sent me, um.
• 3:31
  Natasha Rai: The, uh, novel, the manuscript, the novel.
• 3:33
  Natasha Rai: And I'd hoped, I'd hoped to read some of it before we had our chat today, but it was so good that I read the entire thing.
• 3:39
  Holly Brunnbauer: Oh, wow.
• 3:40
  Holly Brunnbauer: Thank you.
• 3:40
  Natasha Rai: Um, I found myself like literally like waiting in between like work to go back to it to read.
• 3:45
  Natasha Rai: Now, having said all that, I'll just caveat it, that my knowledge of romcoms comes primarily from eighties and nineties Nora Ephron movies.
• 3:53
  Natasha Rai: I'm not, um, a natural reader of romcoms.
• 3:56
  Natasha Rai: Not because I don't like them, just because, yeah, I don't know.
• 3:59
  Natasha Rai: I think I'm, I tend to watch them.
• 4:01
  Natasha Rai: So I was really interested in a couple of things that really struck me in your novel, which is about the trope that I've been used to or the kind of usual storyline revolves around in a, in heterosexual romances about the woman wanting to be with this man and the man really withholding.
• 4:21
  Natasha Rai: And I noticed that that was neatly flipped in, in, What Did I Miss?
• 4:25
  Natasha Rai: Yeah, I'm just curious about that.
• 4:26
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yeah.
• 4:27
  Holly Brunnbauer: Uh.
• 4:28
  Holly Brunnbauer: I would love to say, you know, it was really intentional, but it, I guess in a way it is because, you know, it's very sexy also for a, for, for it to be flipped for the man to fall first.
• 4:41
  Natasha Rai: Oh yeah.
• 4:41
  Natasha Rai: I'm into that.
• 4:44
  Holly Brunnbauer: Um, but the other thing I guess was about Mikayla in general, a lot of romcoms, uh, you would normally make the protagonist someone who's really likable and someone you'd wanna be best friends with.
• 4:55
  Holly Brunnbauer: And Mikayla's not that,
• 4:58
  Natasha Rai: yeah, she's prickly, so,
• 4:59
  Holly Brunnbauer: oh, she's prickly, she's blunt, she's sarcastic.
• 5:03
  Holly Brunnbauer: She will cut you off in a second.
• 5:04
  Holly Brunnbauer: And it, like, as a writer, it's just really fun to create characters that go against the grain.
• 5:11
  Holly Brunnbauer: Um, especially in a romance as well.
• 5:13
  Holly Brunnbauer: You know, I wanted to create a character that was strong, but also needed to learn how to be vulnerable and, and also to learn that that wasn't a weakness for her.
• 5:24
  Holly Brunnbauer: So there were a few, you know, they say like, you should always flip the cliches on their head.
• 5:30
  Holly Brunnbauer: There's also, for an an example, there's an ex-mother-in-law usually, you know, the ex-wife and ex-mother-in-law would hate each other.
• 5:37
  Holly Brunnbauer: Mm-hmm.
• 5:37
  Holly Brunnbauer: And they don't hate each other.
• 5:38
  Holly Brunnbauer: That's right.
• 5:38
  Holly Brunnbauer: They have a very endearing relationship.
• 5:41
  Holly Brunnbauer: And same with perhaps, you know, the ex-husband and his new girlfriend and Mikayla, normally they would be pinned against each other.
• 5:46
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I didn't wanna do that either.
• 5:48
  Holly Brunnbauer: I was like, we can coexist as women without hating on each other.
• 5:51
  Holly Brunnbauer: So it was really important to me that there wasn't, you know, that I wasn't leaning into those cliches and was creating something that felt a bit fresher in the romcom space.
• 6:01
  Natasha Rai: And, you know, you've totally nailed it.
• 6:03
  Natasha Rai: And I'm really curious, was that your starting point?
• 6:05
  Natasha Rai: Like, did your characters come to you first or did you have an idea for this story that you wanted to tell?
• 6:12
  Holly Brunnbauer: I had, I think maybe perhaps the premise came to me first in that one of my friends had married and divorced her high school sweetheart and she was in her thirties and entering the adult dating world for the very first time.
• 6:27
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I found that to be just such a fascinating situation.
• 6:32
  Holly Brunnbauer: Mm-hmm.
• 6:32
  Holly Brunnbauer: You know, the last time she dated, she'd been 16 now.
• 6:35
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yes, she was older, had more life experience, but she also didn't have that sort of foundational experience of where we all have to, you know, perhaps kiss a few frogs, uh, and things like that.
• 6:48
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I just sort of sat there and thought, wow, what a unique situation.
• 6:52
  Holly Brunnbauer: I wonder what I would do if I was in that position.
• 6:55
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I guess.
• 6:57
  Holly Brunnbauer: Being me and perhaps watching too much Bridgerton.
• 6:59
  Holly Brunnbauer: At the time I was like, I'd probably wanna go out and have a one night stand, you know, just to see what it's like.
• 7:05
  Holly Brunnbauer: And so the first chapter poured out of me.
• 7:08
  Holly Brunnbauer: I just sat there and it just vomited onto the page basically.
• 7:12
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I was like, Ooh.
• 7:13
  Holly Brunnbauer: But Mikayla's voice came really strong.
• 7:15
  Holly Brunnbauer: She's nothing like my friend.
• 7:17
  Holly Brunnbauer: I have to just caveat that.
• 7:18
  Holly Brunnbauer: Um, my friend is lovely and very warm and friendly, but Mikayla just had this bityness and I just was so drawn to her, um, being so unhinged sometimes.
• 7:29
  Holly Brunnbauer: Mm.
• 7:29
  Holly Brunnbauer: I felt like she kind of just wrote herself and I was going along for the ride, but then I just.
• 7:34
  Holly Brunnbauer: The idea of, so there is a list in this story.
• 7:37
  Holly Brunnbauer: So she actually comes up with this list and no regrets list.
• 7:40
  Holly Brunnbauer: And you know, I thought after she had that experience, I was like, well, what other things would she want to try?
• 7:46
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I messaged my friends, like, I just dropped off into the group chat, you know, if you found yourself suddenly single, what new encounters would you wanna try?
• 7:56
  Holly Brunnbauer: And they just came back with the funniest answers and a lot of them were just filthy.
• 8:02
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I was like, oh, let me grab a pen.
• 8:05
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I just wrote them all down and thought, how can I make this into a story?
• 8:09
  Holly Brunnbauer: Uh, and you know, so I have to really thank my, my horny friends for that.
• 8:13
  Holly Brunnbauer: I appreciated that.
• 8:14
  Holly Brunnbauer: But not all of them end up being, you know, yeah.
• 8:18
  Holly Brunnbauer: Sexually related activities.
• 8:20
  Holly Brunnbauer: Mm-hmm.
• 8:20
  Holly Brunnbauer: They do.
• 8:20
  Holly Brunnbauer: It does broaden out.
• 8:22
  Holly Brunnbauer: But it was just a really fun place to start.
• 8:24
  Holly Brunnbauer: And it was interesting to me because the group chat was going off.
• 8:28
  Holly Brunnbauer: I could see it was something.
• 8:30
  Holly Brunnbauer: That was a conversation starter.
• 8:32
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I thought, yeah, there's something here.
• 8:33
  Holly Brunnbauer: I'm gonna lean into this.
• 8:34
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yeah.
• 8:34
  Holly Brunnbauer: So that's how it really got started.
• 8:37
  Natasha Rai: Yeah, I love that.
• 8:38
  Natasha Rai: And you know, what you say about Mikayla, she is a very strong character in that she feels so fully formed.
• 8:45
  Natasha Rai: And I have to say, as a reader, I didn't dislike her at all.
• 8:49
  Natasha Rai: I could actually
• 8:50
  Holly Brunnbauer: Oh, thank you.
• 8:50
  Natasha Rai: See the vulnerability.
• 8:52
  Natasha Rai: And she's got a lot of insight, doesn't she?
• 8:55
  Natasha Rai: 'cause she does.
• 8:55
  Natasha Rai: Um, without giving away too much, she does say a few times in, in, in the story that she's realized she comes from a family where they don't really talk about feelings or they talk about, you know, big things.
• 9:07
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 9:07
  Natasha Rai: And, and that really came through and what I really delighted in was that I could see these vulnerabilities in her and I was really glad that this man that she's attracted to seemed to do the same.
• 9:20
  Natasha Rai: Yes.
• 9:21
  Natasha Rai: Which I loved.
• 9:22
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 9:23
  Natasha Rai: What was that like to write, like, his name's Beau, am I pronouncing that correctly?
• 9:27
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yes.
• 9:27
  Holly Brunnbauer: Beau that's correct.
• 9:29
  Holly Brunnbauer: Mr.
• 9:30
  Holly Brunnbauer: So Mikayla.
• 9:30
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yes, exactly.
• 9:31
  Holly Brunnbauer: Mr.
• 9:31
  Holly Brunnbauer: Shepherd.
• 9:32
  Natasha Rai: Actually, I do wanna talk to you about the sex in a moment.
• 9:34
  Holly Brunnbauer: Okay.
• 9:36
  Holly Brunnbauer: Let's just get to the good stuff.
• 9:37
  Natasha Rai: Oh, oh God.
• 9:38
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 9:38
  Natasha Rai: Um, so Beau Shepherd, he, how was he to write for you?
• 9:43
  Natasha Rai: Because Mikayla and, and he also feels very fully formed to me, but obviously quite different to how Mikayla is portrayed on the page.
• 9:51
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yeah, so they are quite opposite.
• 9:55
  Holly Brunnbauer: And sometimes, you know, you have someone you would pair them with, someone who does challenge that person.
• 10:01
  Holly Brunnbauer: And that's Beau's sort of role that he's playing.
• 10:04
  Holly Brunnbauer: Whether he was a love interest or not, he's constantly challenging her to look at her behavior and to see, to really see, you know, can she continue these habits?
• 10:14
  Holly Brunnbauer: Are they actually serving her in the way that she thinks they are?
• 10:18
  Holly Brunnbauer: Uh, with him, I wanted to put in a green flag, man.
• 10:23
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yes.
• 10:23
  Holly Brunnbauer: I wanted someone who, so is that Yeah.
• 10:25
  Holly Brunnbauer: And hot.
• 10:26
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yeah.
• 10:26
  Holly Brunnbauer: And of course hot, like they just gonna be hot, obviously.
• 10:29
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yeah.
• 10:30
  Holly Brunnbauer: But I just wanted someone who had really firm boundaries and someone who could have a healthy conversation.
• 10:37
  Holly Brunnbauer: And address conflict head on, because I find, you know, they, they often in books like this, they, you know, they, they don't communicate and stuff like that.
• 10:45
  Natasha Rai: And those misunderstandings are really, uh, I find sometimes just a bit silly.
• 10:50
  Natasha Rai: Like if someone just said one thing, it would just all be fine.
• 10:53
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 10:53
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 10:54
  Holly Brunnbauer: And, and Mikayla is very quick to always think the worst of people.
• 10:58
  Holly Brunnbauer: So she does that quite often with him because she is just, you know, viewing everything through sort of, she says like a broken glass, basically.
• 11:06
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yeah.
• 11:07
  Holly Brunnbauer: But he's very quick to pull her, you know, to, he is just, yeah.
• 11:11
  Holly Brunnbauer: To pull her up on everything and call it out as well, call out her behavior.
• 11:15
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I don't know what it was, but I just found that so hot.
• 11:18
  Holly Brunnbauer: Like it was like, okay, this is a good guy.
• 11:23
  Holly Brunnbauer: And you know, like.
• 11:25
  Holly Brunnbauer: Sometimes I think that romance novels are, are blueprints for men of how we wanna be treated.
• 11:30
  Holly Brunnbauer: Like these are the men that we, you know, our book boyfriends we call them, um, but they're really just like, guys, it's not that hard.
• 11:38
  Holly Brunnbauer: Like, just read the novels.
• 11:40
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yeah.
• 11:40
  Holly Brunnbauer: This is what we want.
• 11:41
  Holly Brunnbauer: We want someone who will, you know, have a conversation with us about our behavior and our feelings and, and say, well, what's going on there?
• 11:49
  Holly Brunnbauer: Let's actually have a chat about this.
• 11:51
  Holly Brunnbauer: Let's unpack this.
• 11:52
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yeah.
• 11:52
  Holly Brunnbauer: So I really love that.
• 11:54
  Holly Brunnbauer: But I do a lot of character development before I start my story.
• 11:57
  Holly Brunnbauer: I always do start like I'll, you know, if the premise comes to me, all the title comes to me, whatever it is, I spend a month getting to know my characters before I start my story.
• 12:07
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yeah.
• 12:09
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yeah.
• 12:09
  Holly Brunnbauer: So that's why they feel So when you say, yeah.
• 12:11
  Holly Brunnbauer: So I'm curious about that.
• 12:12
  Holly Brunnbauer: So when you say you spend a month getting to know your characters.
• 12:15
  Natasha Rai: What kinds of exercises or, or what are you doing to get into their kind of heads?
• 12:19
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yeah.
• 12:20
  Holly Brunnbauer: Well, the first thing for me, I'm just a real visual person.
• 12:23
  Holly Brunnbauer: Mm-hmm.
• 12:23
  Holly Brunnbauer: So I kind of create,
• 12:24
  Natasha Rai: I can tell, yeah.
• 12:26
  Holly Brunnbauer: A mood board of their life, basically.
• 12:28
  Holly Brunnbauer: Like I need to know, like I will find a picture of the, the character that matches the character in my head.
• 12:35
  Holly Brunnbauer: I will also create their wardrobe and, but every piece that I pick, there has to be a reason.
• 12:40
  Holly Brunnbauer: So, for example, with Mikayla, for her bathers, she wears a practical one piece and it's black.
• 12:47
  Holly Brunnbauer: And that's because she's an athlete and when she's going into the pool, she's not there parading and trying to show off her hot little bod.
• 12:53
  Holly Brunnbauer: She's there to get work done and she wants to beat Agnes in that race.
• 12:57
  Holly Brunnbauer: So when I pick an item, like everything tells a story, but it tells me something about the character.
• 13:03
  Holly Brunnbauer: So that's just a little exercise that I like to do.
• 13:06
  Holly Brunnbauer: I also think about all the things that they like and all the things they dislike in their life as well.
• 13:13
  Holly Brunnbauer: Um.
• 13:14
  Holly Brunnbauer: And then I also think about three things in their past that have happened to them that contribute to them being the character that the reader meets at the start.
• 13:24
  Holly Brunnbauer: So even if that doesn't make it into the book, I need to know what three things happen to them.
• 13:30
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yeah.
• 13:31
  Holly Brunnbauer: So that I can write them in a way that feels like, yeah, this person has lived a life.
• 13:36
  Holly Brunnbauer: They were someone before you actually opened this book and started at Chapter one.
• 13:40
  Natasha Rai: Wow.
• 13:42
  Natasha Rai: Okay.
• 13:42
  Natasha Rai: All the writers out there, character development tips, write them down.
• 13:46
  Natasha Rai: Um, so I'm really curious about the, uh, the sex scenes.
• 13:51
  Natasha Rai: Okay.
• 13:52
  Natasha Rai: Because I get asked a lot about the sex in my book, so I was, I always now like to read with an eye on that.
• 13:58
  Natasha Rai: If, if there is a romance element, which obviously yours is a romance book, how was that for you?
• 14:04
  Natasha Rai: How, how do you approach writing sex?
• 14:06
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yeah, so I, I don't find it embarrassing or cringe or any different to writing an action scene, for example, if anything, I probably find the crying scenes and the vulnerable scenes to be really hard.
• 14:18
  Holly Brunnbauer: The sex scenes for me, I always have to ask myself, uh, why is this in here?
• 14:24
  Holly Brunnbauer: What is it actually showing about the character?
• 14:26
  Holly Brunnbauer: And there are multiple, I call them intimate scenes because to me it's not just like I'm not there to titillate the reader.
• 14:33
  Holly Brunnbauer: If it does, you are welcome i's tate it.
• 14:36
  Holly Brunnbauer: Okay, fantastic.
• 14:37
  Holly Brunnbauer: Um, but you know, if you are not, that's okay.
• 14:40
  Holly Brunnbauer: So, you know, for example, with the very first time we actually see them on the page intimate compared to the last time, the first time is very rough and quick and dirty and she's really trying to numb herself.
• 14:53
  Holly Brunnbauer: So that's what it's trying to portray.
• 14:55
  Holly Brunnbauer: So I'm using, you know, verbs and trying to use the setting and the mood to create, you know, that sort of feeling compared to the last time when we see her, when she's gone through so much and changed so much as a character, it's very slow and sensual and freeing.
• 15:13
  Holly Brunnbauer: And that is really to highlight one, how her connection with Beau changes.
• 15:18
  Holly Brunnbauer: It goes from a very physical to a very emotional relationship, but also how she is feeling about herself.
• 15:27
  Holly Brunnbauer: So I was really intentional in those scenes to show those things evolving over time and you just gotta keep practicing at it when it comes to that sort of thing.
• 15:38
  Holly Brunnbauer: I think there has to be a really strong connection there in order for sex scenes to, to feel really good when you're reading them.
• 15:45
  Holly Brunnbauer: Mm-hmm.
• 15:46
  Holly Brunnbauer: And you do have to, I guess, have a crush on at least one of the people in, in the story in order to be like, Ooh, yeah, I enjoyed this.
• 15:55
  Natasha Rai: I enjoyed them a lot.
• 15:56
  Holly Brunnbauer: Oh, thank you.
• 15:58
  Natasha Rai: And then swinging kind of to something.
• 16:02
  Natasha Rai: That was quite different to the sex.
• 16:04
  Natasha Rai: So I, I'm not going to give any spoilers, but there are some quite, uh, what's the right word?
• 16:10
  Natasha Rai: Serious themes, I suppose, that you do write about in terms of something that's happened to Mikayla or in her past, recent past.
• 16:19
  Natasha Rai: And that is obviously quite a different mood and tone to, you know, the, the budding romance or the, the attraction she has for Beau.
• 16:27
  Natasha Rai: And what really struck me as a reader was that there is a beautiful way that you've done it in that you kind of know something is coming, but it doesn't, I don't know, it doesn't take away from this person and it doesn't overwhelm the reader.
• 16:46
  Natasha Rai: It doesn't, it didn't overwhelm me.
• 16:47
  Natasha Rai: But at the same time it was such a beautiful, nuanced way of, for her to kind of face this thing.
• 16:54
  Holly Brunnbauer: Hmm.
• 16:55
  Natasha Rai: How is that for you to write?
• 16:57
  Holly Brunnbauer: It was difficult.
• 16:58
  Holly Brunnbauer: Mm-hmm.
• 16:59
  Holly Brunnbauer: Um, I had to really dig deep, but I felt it was important that if I was going to address a topic like that, and I'm sorry for everyone who, you know, you haven't read the book,
• 17:08
  Natasha Rai: that's okay.
• 17:08
  Holly Brunnbauer: We're gonna, you know, skirt around the spoiler.
• 17:10
  Natasha Rai: This, this will make sense once they read it and come back.
• 17:12
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yeah, yeah.
• 17:13
  Holly Brunnbauer: Um, I felt that if I was going to address that topic, because it's not often brought up in romcoms.
• 17:19
  Natasha Rai: No, it is not.
• 17:20
  Holly Brunnbauer: No it's not.
• 17:21
  Holly Brunnbauer: So I was like, it's not gonna be something that I'm just going to brush over and pretend it's not important.
• 17:26
  Holly Brunnbauer: I was going to really go there and I know I've had people, uh, feedback from people that were like.
• 17:32
  Holly Brunnbauer: I was like, you know, I was expecting your book to be funny, which it is, but I was not expecting it to be deep.
• 17:37
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I was like, I love that feedback.
• 17:39
  Holly Brunnbauer: Like I'm actually happy with that feedback that people felt that it was addressed appropriately.
• 17:45
  Holly Brunnbauer: And yeah, like I said, it w it was something, it is uncomfortable for me because I, I'm sure with you, you know, you, your characters feel real to you and it's like, I'm making this horrible thing happen to this
• 17:56
  Natasha Rai: Yes, exactly.
• 17:56
  Holly Brunnbauer: This person that I care about.
• 17:58
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yeah.
• 17:58
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I just, you know, I felt like it, it, I needed to dig deep with it, but I, I felt like it was also important for Mikayla's character arc in that, you know, you needed to see, she wasn't as tough as you thought she was.
• 18:14
  Holly Brunnbauer: Mm-hmm.
• 18:15
  Holly Brunnbauer: You know, there was more to her and I felt like it just gave her another layer, um, that the reader could, you know, perhaps relate to
• 18:24
  Natasha Rai: For sure.
• 18:24
  Natasha Rai: And it's about, you know, as you said, when you do your work around the characters backstories and developing them.
• 18:31
  Natasha Rai: We also need to understand that her reaction is appropriate considering what she's experienced.
• 18:38
  Natasha Rai: It is completely her fears, her, you know, her experiences have directly contributed to how she's in the world right now.
• 18:46
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yeah, absolutely.
• 18:47
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I also, you know, giving a perspective on what is, you know, the angry woman, uh, which is something,
• 18:56
  Natasha Rai: sorry, I'm rolling my eyes.
• 18:58
  Natasha Rai: Eyes.
• 18:58
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 18:59
  Holly Brunnbauer: Because it's one of those things where I, there were times where I was, you know, worried that it wouldn't get published or perhaps because she was so angry or that I would perhaps have an editor that would tell me to pull back on that.
• 19:13
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I didn't.
• 19:13
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I was so happy that my publisher and my editor, they never once said anything about that.
• 19:19
  Holly Brunnbauer: Like they really, you know, just accepted like, yeah, we are really going there with her.
• 19:24
  Holly Brunnbauer: Um, and there's going to be, there will be like, I know there will be people who won't like that about her, but I was like, feminine rage is just something I really wanted address.
• 19:33
  Holly Brunnbauer: Maybe it's my rage and I've projected it onto the page, but not at all.
• 19:37
  Holly Brunnbauer: I mean, even if it is like it's, it's valuable and we need to talk about it.
• 19:41
  Natasha Rai: You know, just on that point, I was at Words in the Waves yesterday, which is a festival in the Central Coast, new South Wales.
• 19:47
  Natasha Rai: And literally I was on a panel with Jesse Tu, and Nikki Gemmell, and they talked about rage and they talked about female rage specifically.
• 19:56
  Natasha Rai: Yes.
• 19:56
  Natasha Rai: And.
• 19:57
  Natasha Rai: You know, portraying it in all its forms through different stories.
• 20:01
  Natasha Rai: And you know, my character, Arch, in my book is very angry and I've had people say, I nearly didn't finish it, or I nearly couldn't get into it'cause of her anger.
• 20:09
  Natasha Rai: And I'm like, so what?
• 20:10
  Natasha Rai: I just, I find that really interesting.
• 20:12
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 20:13
  Natasha Rai: As a response.
• 20:14
  Holly Brunnbauer: Are we not allowed to be angry?
• 20:15
  Holly Brunnbauer: I, we not allowed to be pissed off, but the difference too is what we do with that anger.
• 20:21
  Holly Brunnbauer: I mean, we are not going around punching walls or, you know, murdering people when we are angry.
• 20:26
  Holly Brunnbauer: So I think it's a great topic to explore.
• 20:29
  Holly Brunnbauer: And me too, you know, I was happy to in
• 20:32
  Natasha Rai: No, and I'm really glad you did because as you said, you don't often see that in that, um, genre.
• 20:37
  Natasha Rai: And I, for one, as a reader just really, really enjoyed that.
• 20:42
  Natasha Rai: Um, because also to me it felt so real and it also felt obvious that.
• 20:48
  Natasha Rai: Not that you need a reason to be, well, you sort of need a reason to be angry, but that kind of internalized rage, which is what we're talking about here, right?
• 20:55
  Natasha Rai: Like yes.
• 20:56
  Natasha Rai: When the rage is turned inward.
• 20:58
  Natasha Rai: Um, especially women, we do that a lot.
• 21:01
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yes.
• 21:02
  Natasha Rai: Yes.
• 21:03
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 21:03
  Natasha Rai: Anyway, but let's not get into that.
• 21:05
  Natasha Rai: That's for another podcast.
• 21:07
  Natasha Rai: But if we zoom out now a bit from your writing practice, which I do wanna ask about in a bit, what was your publication journey like?
• 21:15
  Natasha Rai: So yeah, tell me about that.
• 21:18
  Holly Brunnbauer: Okay, so mine really starts with getting an agent first.
• 21:21
  Holly Brunnbauer: So I signed up for the agent and editor assessments at the CYA conference, and that is, so, it's not a pitching opportunity, it's where you submit your first chapter, your synopsis, and your bio.
• 21:36
  Holly Brunnbauer: To an agent or an editor that you've booked in with, they see that before they meet you, and then you've got 15 minutes with them where they give you feedback on that.
• 21:45
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I booked in with my dream agent and I'd been writing her name in my journal for a year and I thought, oh wow, this will be a great opportunity to meet her.
• 21:55
  Holly Brunnbauer: So that she could also put face to the name, so when I do submit to her later, perhaps she'll remember me.
• 22:01
  Holly Brunnbauer: Mm-hmm.
• 22:01
  Holly Brunnbauer: There'll be some familiarity there, but I also,
• 22:03
  Natasha Rai: and can I just ask a quick question, holly?
• 22:05
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 22:05
  Natasha Rai: At that point, how much of your manuscript had you written?
• 22:09
  Holly Brunnbauer: So I'd written the first draft.
• 22:10
  Natasha Rai: Oh, okay.
• 22:11
  Natasha Rai: Got it.
• 22:11
  Holly Brunnbauer: But this only happens once a year in July, so I didn't wanna miss the opportunity.
• 22:16
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yeah.
• 22:16
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I, I also just wanted to ask her too, like, did she feel it had like commercial appeal?
• 22:21
  Holly Brunnbauer: Were people ask like, were publishers interested in this thing?
• 22:24
  Holly Brunnbauer: And also, did she think the first chapter was hooky enough?
• 22:27
  Holly Brunnbauer: Like would it, would it compel her to keep reading?
• 22:29
  Holly Brunnbauer: I wanted her professional opinion.
• 22:31
  Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
• 22:31
  Natasha Rai: And those are really, really good questions.
• 22:33
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yeah.
• 22:34
  Holly Brunnbauer: And so when we met, I kind of thought, look, so you can't record the session.
• 22:37
  Holly Brunnbauer: You have to write down all their feedback.
• 22:40
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I sort of like, pen and hand ready?
• 22:41
  Holly Brunnbauer: Tell me what's wrong with it.
• 22:42
  Holly Brunnbauer: I'll fix it.
• 22:43
  Holly Brunnbauer: You know, very eager.
• 22:45
  Holly Brunnbauer: And then she sort of like said a few little things, but then she just sort of told me how much she really enjoyed it.
• 22:50
  Holly Brunnbauer: Oh.
• 22:50
  Holly Brunnbauer: And she was asking me lots of questions and I was a bit like, what's going on?
• 22:53
  Holly Brunnbauer: Why isn't she telling me all the things that are wrong?
• 22:56
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I was like shaking.
• 22:58
  Holly Brunnbauer: Like, I'd, I'd been, I was so nervous.
• 23:00
  Holly Brunnbauer: I was so sick.
• 23:01
  Holly Brunnbauer: And then she said, I don't usually, um, represent romance authors.
• 23:08
  Holly Brunnbauer: And my heart just dropped.
• 23:09
  Holly Brunnbauer: 'cause I was like, what?
• 23:10
  Holly Brunnbauer: Like I knew she represented people who wrote adult fiction and children's fiction and stuff like that.
• 23:14
  Holly Brunnbauer: But I'd never really looked at the genre.
• 23:16
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I was like, oh my God.
• 23:17
  Holly Brunnbauer: Like what have I done?
• 23:18
  Holly Brunnbauer: I've invested all this time into her being my agent.
• 23:21
  Holly Brunnbauer: And then she goes, but this is really smart and I'd love to see the rest.
• 23:27
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I was like.
• 23:28
  Holly Brunnbauer: Okay.
• 23:29
  Holly Brunnbauer: And then we got spit out of the meeting.
• 23:32
  Holly Brunnbauer: 'cause it's a virtual, you go to this virtual waiting room.
• 23:35
  Holly Brunnbauer: So I didn't have time to tell her that it was a first draft because she hadn't asked.
• 23:40
  Holly Brunnbauer: Ah, yes.
• 23:40
  Holly Brunnbauer: So then I sat there all weekend going back and forth and I was saying to my husband, what do I do?
• 23:44
  Holly Brunnbauer: What do I do?
• 23:45
  Holly Brunnbauer: And he goes, just send it to her.
• 23:47
  Holly Brunnbauer: And then I was like, no, I'm not gonna do that.
• 23:50
  Holly Brunnbauer: I'm a Virgo.
• 23:52
  Holly Brunnbauer: Like I need it to be perfect.
• 23:53
  Holly Brunnbauer: I don't wanna blow my shot and I also don't wanna waste her time.
• 23:56
  Holly Brunnbauer: So I emailed her to say, Hey, like I really appreciate that you've requested the full, I'm so excited.
• 24:02
  Holly Brunnbauer: Can I please send this to you when I've worked on it a bit more?
• 24:06
  Holly Brunnbauer: I want to present my best work.
• 24:07
  Holly Brunnbauer: And she was like, absolutely, that's totally fine.
• 24:10
  Holly Brunnbauer: I was like, okay.
• 24:10
  Holly Brunnbauer: Right.
• 24:11
  Holly Brunnbauer: Fantastic.
• 24:11
  Holly Brunnbauer: So I got working on it.
• 24:13
  Holly Brunnbauer: In the meantime, I got shortlisted for publishable with the Queensland Writers Center.
• 24:19
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yeah.
• 24:20
  Holly Brunnbauer: Which was so exciting and I'd finished it, but.
• 24:24
  Holly Brunnbauer: In their terms and conditions, you are not allowed to send your manuscript to agents or publishers while you do the program.
• 24:31
  Holly Brunnbauer: Um, so it's embargoed and I was like, oh damn.
• 24:35
  Holly Brunnbauer: So I emailed her and said, Hey, great news.
• 24:37
  Holly Brunnbauer: I got shortlisted for this award, which I was rapt about because again, I was like, it's a romcom.
• 24:42
  Holly Brunnbauer: It's against all these other genres.
• 24:45
  Holly Brunnbauer: I didn't think it would get picked, like when I got long listed, I, I, like, I had the wind knocked out of me'cause they call you and, oh, best call I've ever had in my life.
• 24:55
  Holly Brunnbauer: But I was like, like I honestly was panting on the phone and I I had to email them afterwards to apologize'cause I was just like so excited.
• 25:03
  Holly Brunnbauer: But yeah, so I told her and she's like, that's so great.
• 25:06
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I was like, but I can't send it to you until I finished this program.
• 25:09
  Holly Brunnbauer: Which I really wanted to do the program.
• 25:10
  Holly Brunnbauer: I didn't wanna withdraw from it'cause you got a mentor and um, some other really great perks with it.
• 25:17
  Holly Brunnbauer: And so I did the program and then as soon as it was finished, I emailed it to her and it was December.
• 25:24
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I thought, this is the worst time of year to send an agent a manuscript.
• 25:28
  Holly Brunnbauer: Like literally the end of the year.
• 25:30
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yes.
• 25:30
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I thought, oh God, I'm never gonna hear from her.
• 25:33
  Holly Brunnbauer: And then she emailed back and said, I'll get it back to you in January.
• 25:35
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I was like, nah, it's, if you're gonna read it by then, like whatever.
• 25:40
  Holly Brunnbauer: And so in January I was sitting there, you know, checking my emails, checking my emails.
• 25:44
  Holly Brunnbauer: She was kind enough to email me to say like, mid Jan.
• 25:47
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I like, my heart stopped, she said, just letting you know, I've had some of my current clients send their manuscripts in like their second and third one, so I need to read those first before yours, just letting you know.
• 25:58
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I was like, that's really nice.
• 25:59
  Holly Brunnbauer: Like, I don't know many agents that would do that.
• 26:02
  Holly Brunnbauer: So I was like, you know, green flag automatically, like this is a professional and she understands the anxiety of the person waiting on the other side.
• 26:10
  Holly Brunnbauer: And then I sort of started to panic.
• 26:13
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I thought, oh my God.
• 26:14
  Holly Brunnbauer: Like maybe she started to read it and then put it down and you know, then she started with the other ones, like maybe she's just lying.
• 26:21
  Holly Brunnbauer: And then not that she would, but you know, you, you do, you, you
• 26:24
  Natasha Rai: Of course you just doubt yourself and second guess yourself.
• 26:26
  Natasha Rai: Yeah, of course.
• 26:27
  Holly Brunnbauer: Absolutely.
• 26:27
  Holly Brunnbauer: So I thought I'll put together a spreadsheet of all the agents I'm going to contact, you know, throughout the year I was gonna do a slow rollout, that's what they call it, so that if you get feedback, you have time to change your manuscript before you send it out to someone else.
• 26:39
  Holly Brunnbauer: Okay.
• 26:40
  Holly Brunnbauer: And so I started putting together that spreadsheet and I thought I'll just send it to the next one on the list.
• 26:43
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I sent it and I got an email a few hours later saying, send me the full.
• 26:49
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I was like, oh my God.
• 26:51
  Holly Brunnbauer: So I was like, okay, that's really exciting.
• 26:54
  Holly Brunnbauer: But then a week later in January, even though I wasn't expecting it, the email came through from the first agent I.
• 27:02
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I thought, oh my God, this is it.
• 27:04
  Holly Brunnbauer: This is my first rejection I'm going to.
• 27:07
  Holly Brunnbauer: So I didn't even look at it.
• 27:08
  Holly Brunnbauer: I just put my phone down.
• 27:09
  Holly Brunnbauer: I went and made a cup of tea.
• 27:10
  Holly Brunnbauer: I grabbed,
• 27:10
  Natasha Rai: Oh God, I can't believe I didn't look at it.
• 27:11
  Natasha Rai: I would've like, my God.
• 27:13
  Natasha Rai: Okay.
• 27:14
  Holly Brunnbauer: I sat down at my desk with my tissues ready to have my first, you know, breakdown.
• 27:21
  Holly Brunnbauer: And then I opened it and it was like, you know, I'm not officially back at work, but I've read it.
• 27:25
  Holly Brunnbauer: I finished it.
• 27:26
  Holly Brunnbauer: I loved it.
• 27:27
  Holly Brunnbauer: Um, I'd love to represent you, you know, all this stuff.
• 27:30
  Holly Brunnbauer: Oh, that's your dream agent.
• 27:31
  Holly Brunnbauer: My dream agent.
• 27:32
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I was like, bawling my eyes out.
• 27:35
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I,
• 27:35
  Natasha Rai: You did need the tissues.
• 27:37
  Holly Brunnbauer: I did need the tissues.
• 27:38
  Holly Brunnbauer: I was like, they nothing there.
• 27:39
  Holly Brunnbauer: And it was just amazing.
• 27:40
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I was like, I, I can't believe this is happening.
• 27:42
  Holly Brunnbauer: I had to read the email so many times.
• 27:44
  Holly Brunnbauer: What a moment.
• 27:44
  Holly Brunnbauer: Home.
• 27:45
  Holly Brunnbauer: I was like, can you read this?
• 27:47
  Holly Brunnbauer: Does this say what I think it says?
• 27:48
  Holly Brunnbauer: He's like, yes, it does.
• 27:49
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I was like, um, so that was amazing.
• 27:53
  Holly Brunnbauer: That was so good.
• 27:54
  Holly Brunnbauer: And then.
• 27:56
  Holly Brunnbauer: When you have an agent, then you've gotta put, they've gotta put together a pitch package.
• 28:00
  Holly Brunnbauer: And so she said to me, she actually does give editorial feedback if, if required, but she said, this is ready to go, we're gonna send it out.
• 28:06
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I was like, okay.
• 28:08
  Holly Brunnbauer: And then I signed with her and literally a few days later it was out, you know, she was sending it to the big five and I was like, I'm not ready for this.
• 28:16
  Holly Brunnbauer: And she's like, just hang in there, it's fine.
• 28:19
  Holly Brunnbauer: Um, because you're not CC'd into those emails.
• 28:21
  Holly Brunnbauer: That's fine.
• 28:22
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yes.
• 28:22
  Holly Brunnbauer: Fantastic.
• 28:24
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yes.
• 28:25
  Holly Brunnbauer: Um, thank goodness.
• 28:26
  Holly Brunnbauer: But she said, you know, we'll, uh, you know, in about four to six weeks I'll start to nudge if we dont hear anything and we'll see how it goes.
• 28:33
  Holly Brunnbauer: And you just, you think like, waiting for the agent is bad, waiting for the publishers is 10 times worse.
• 28:41
  Holly Brunnbauer: Because I didn't tell anyone I had a publisher.
• 28:43
  Holly Brunnbauer: I was like, I'm not announcing this.
• 28:46
  Holly Brunnbauer: I mean, that I had a agent, agent.
• 28:48
  Holly Brunnbauer: Agent, yeah.
• 28:49
  Holly Brunnbauer: Because I was like, well, what if.
• 28:51
  Holly Brunnbauer: The publishers say no.
• 28:52
  Holly Brunnbauer: Like there's not many publishers in Australia.
• 28:54
  Holly Brunnbauer: It's very likely.
• 28:55
  Holly Brunnbauer: That's right, yes.
• 28:56
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yeah.
• 28:56
  Holly Brunnbauer: So I was keeping this all to myself besides my husband.
• 29:00
  Holly Brunnbauer: Oh.
• 29:00
  Holly Brunnbauer: Um, and spiraling the whole time I felt sick.
• 29:05
  Holly Brunnbauer: And then one day I got an email from her and it was like from Harper Collins and which was my dream publisher, and I was like.
• 29:15
  Holly Brunnbauer: Oh my gosh.
• 29:15
  Holly Brunnbauer: And it said, you know, I love this.
• 29:17
  Holly Brunnbauer: And she said about, she goes, I love that Mikayla has a proper arc that's outside of the romance.
• 29:23
  Holly Brunnbauer: It really sets itself, you know, apart from other ones.
• 29:26
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I was like, okay, that's great.
• 29:27
  Holly Brunnbauer: And she said, oh, you know, is Holly available for a meeting?
• 29:29
  Holly Brunnbauer: I'd like to take it to acquisitions.
• 29:31
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I was like, is Holly available?
• 29:32
  Holly Brunnbauer: Ah, let me play my schedule.
• 29:34
  Holly Brunnbauer: Hyper Collins available.
• 29:38
  Holly Brunnbauer: And then, you know, my agent's like, it's fine.
• 29:41
  Holly Brunnbauer: Like, um, we'll have the meeting.
• 29:42
  Holly Brunnbauer: They're really, she said, you know, they're gonna tr probably talk about the direction they want the book in to go in, but they're really kind of sussing you out as well, so just act normal.
• 29:50
  Holly Brunnbauer: I was like, uh, I don't think I can.
• 29:53
  Holly Brunnbauer: But it is the most amazing meeting you've ever had in your life.
• 29:56
  Holly Brunnbauer: Having a publisher sit there and talk to you about your book for like 45 minutes and just tell you everything that they love about it and also have this vision of where it could go even further.
• 30:08
  Holly Brunnbauer: So she had ideas about things and.
• 30:12
  Holly Brunnbauer: They were all things that I was like, yes, I'm creatively excited'cause I went to that meeting going okay.
• 30:18
  Holly Brunnbauer: What if she wants to change this?
• 30:19
  Holly Brunnbauer: What if she wants to change that?
• 30:20
  Holly Brunnbauer: Da da da dah.
• 30:21
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I was like, the only thing, which is the spoiler thing that we talk about, I was like, if they wanna change that, if they wanted to pull that out, no, I, I think I'd actually like have enough integrity to not pull that particular thing out of the book.
• 30:35
  Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
• 30:35
  Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
• 30:36
  Holly Brunnbauer: Um, and thank goodness you didn't say that.
• 30:38
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yeah.
• 30:42
  Sam Guthrie: Hi, this is Sam Guthrie.
• 30:44
  Sam Guthrie: I'm the author of The Peak, which is being released on the 2nd of July by Harper Collins, and it's such a privilege to be on the podcast to tell you a bit about my novel.
• 30:52
  Sam Guthrie: The Peak is an international thriller.
• 30:54
  Sam Guthrie: It's set in Hong Kong, Shanghai, Beijing, and Canberra.
• 30:57
  Sam Guthrie: And at its heart, it's about a love triangle that takes place.
• 31:01
  Sam Guthrie: During the 1997 handover of Hong Kong, from the UK to the People's Republic of China, two young men, Sebastian and Charlie, traveled to Hong Kong where they fall in love with a young Chinese woman, Chloe.
• 31:12
  Sam Guthrie: Their love will test Sebastian and Charlie's friendship and loyalty, and ultimately results in a betrayal that haunts all three of them for the rest of their lives.
• 31:20
  Sam Guthrie: But the book begins some 30 years after that.
• 31:23
  Sam Guthrie: Sebastian is now a senator.
• 31:24
  Sam Guthrie: Charlie's his chief of staff.
• 31:26
  Sam Guthrie: Sebastian receives a mysterious three word message from Chloe's father, and then commits an unspeakable act in Parliament House.
• 31:33
  Sam Guthrie: In trying to make sense sense of his friend's actions, Charlie now must return through his memories of what happened during their time together in Hong Kong, discovering the horrendous truth of how a love affair can lead to the end of the world.
• 31:44
  Sam Guthrie: This is a book that I was inspired to write based on my 25 years of working in global affairs, including as a diplomat in Hong Kong at the Hong Kong Consulate.
• 31:53
  Sam Guthrie: Uh, it's for people who love political thrillers like John LeCarre and Robert Harris, and I'm so glad to have had the opportunity to tell you about it.
• 32:00
  Sam Guthrie: I really hope you get a chance to read it and enjoy it.
• 32:02
  Sam Guthrie: Thanks.
• 32:07
  Natasha Rai: It is so important, and I think as debut writers, we sometimes forget that it is a two-way relationship and that you are allowed to have your ideas of what is so important to you and your story and your characters, right?
• 32:21
  Natasha Rai: Because I think for a lot of debut writers, when you get this offer of publication, you're just like, yep, no matter what.
• 32:27
  Natasha Rai: But actually it does.
• 32:30
  Natasha Rai: It does actually do you credit and your story credit to go, hang on, what are my non-negotiables?
• 32:35
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yes.
• 32:36
  Holly Brunnbauer: I think that is important because there is a power imbalance there.
• 32:39
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yes.
• 32:39
  Holly Brunnbauer: And you do feel this desperation of wanting to get published and you're like, I'll just do whatever.
• 32:44
  Holly Brunnbauer: But at the end of the day, you have to stand by that book.
• 32:46
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yes.
• 32:47
  Holly Brunnbauer: You are going to have to face your readers.
• 32:49
  Holly Brunnbauer: And really, they're the people that you have to impress, not the publishers.
• 32:53
  Holly Brunnbauer: So you know, are you willing to walk away and stand by your story?
• 32:57
  Holly Brunnbauer: And so I had to really ask myself that question.
• 33:00
  Holly Brunnbauer: Mm-hmm.
• 33:00
  Holly Brunnbauer: Luckily I didn't have to Yes, exactly.
• 33:02
  Holly Brunnbauer: Put in position to do that.
• 33:03
  Holly Brunnbauer: Exactly, yes.
• 33:03
  Holly Brunnbauer: So we had that great meeting and my agent was there, which is really great to have because I was just all excited about talking about the book, and she was asking the practical questions, when is this going to acquisitions, blah blah, blah.
• 33:15
  Holly Brunnbauer: You know, just things that I would've been too scared to ask or too caught up in the moment to ask.
• 33:20
  Holly Brunnbauer: Mm mm You need someone in your corner to ask those questions.
• 33:23
  Holly Brunnbauer: Then we go away and then a week later, so they have their acquisitions every Tuesday and my.
• 33:31
  Holly Brunnbauer: Agent emails me with a heading that's like, don't panic, or something like that in capitals.
• 33:36
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I was like, what?
• 33:37
  Holly Brunnbauer: Don't send me an email like that.
• 33:40
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I automatically panicked.
• 33:42
  Holly Brunnbauer: And she just says they didn't have time to get the pitch to the group because she was out of the office for a few days.
• 33:48
  Holly Brunnbauer: Um, it'll go to the next meeting.
• 33:49
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I was like, oh my God, I can't wait.
• 33:51
  Holly Brunnbauer: Like my stomach was knots.
• 33:53
  Holly Brunnbauer: I couldn't do anything else.
• 33:55
  Holly Brunnbauer: Finally, we get to Tuesday, I hear nothing.
• 33:58
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I was like, well, that's a bad sign because surely they skip outta that meeting and call you immediately.
• 34:03
  Holly Brunnbauer: No, and then we get to the Wednesday and I still, I thought nothing overnight.
• 34:08
  Holly Brunnbauer: What's happening?
• 34:10
  Holly Brunnbauer: I'm too scared to contact my agent.
• 34:11
  Holly Brunnbauer: And then I get a text from her and it says, are you available to chat?
• 34:15
  Holly Brunnbauer: Like, I'll give you a call.
• 34:16
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I was like, she never calls.
• 34:19
  Holly Brunnbauer: She never calls.
• 34:19
  Holly Brunnbauer: It's bad news.
• 34:20
  Holly Brunnbauer: It's obviously bad news.
• 34:21
  Holly Brunnbauer: Why else?
• 34:22
  Holly Brunnbauer: She wants to break the news to me.
• 34:23
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I was like, I'd prefer an email to be honest, so I can just cry in peace.
• 34:27
  Holly Brunnbauer: And then I say, now I think I literally just wrote now.
• 34:31
  Holly Brunnbauer: And she took three minutes to call me.
• 34:34
  Holly Brunnbauer: And in those three minutes I completely unraveled.
• 34:38
  Holly Brunnbauer: I was walking around doing loops in my lounge room.
• 34:40
  Holly Brunnbauer: I was crying, I was shaking.
• 34:42
  Holly Brunnbauer: I was like, oh my God.
• 34:44
  Holly Brunnbauer: Like they don't want it.
• 34:46
  Holly Brunnbauer: They think it's shit.
• 34:47
  Holly Brunnbauer: I'm shit.
• 34:48
  Holly Brunnbauer: It's never gonna be published.
• 34:49
  Holly Brunnbauer: This is my last chance.
• 34:50
  Holly Brunnbauer: Or like, you know, just completely spiraling, phone rings.
• 34:53
  Holly Brunnbauer: I'm like, pull yourself together, woman.
• 34:55
  Holly Brunnbauer: Do not cry in front of your agent.
• 34:58
  Holly Brunnbauer: And so I'm sort of like answering.
• 35:00
  Holly Brunnbauer: I'm like, hello?
• 35:01
  Holly Brunnbauer: And she goes, hi Holly.
• 35:03
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I think, oh, that's so mean.
• 35:05
  Holly Brunnbauer: Why is she so perky when she's about to crush my soul?
• 35:09
  Holly Brunnbauer: And then she goes, congratulations.
• 35:12
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I was like, I just heard nothing after that.
• 35:15
  Holly Brunnbauer: Like we were on the phone for 40 minutes and I completely blanked.
• 35:18
  Holly Brunnbauer: I was like, oh my God, that's so amazing.
• 35:21
  Holly Brunnbauer: And so I get off the phone with her.
• 35:24
  Holly Brunnbauer: 20 minutes later I get another call saying I'd been shortlisted for another award.
• 35:30
  Natasha Rai: Oh my God, Holly.
• 35:31
  Holly Brunnbauer: The Hawkeye manuscript, um, developmental prize, which was amazing.
• 35:36
  Holly Brunnbauer: Um, and then the next day I get another call saying I'd been shortlisted for Adaptable, which is where, go to Brisbane and pitch your manuscript.
• 35:48
  Holly Brunnbauer: Which was at that time an unpublished manuscript, uh, to screen professionals.
• 35:54
  Holly Brunnbauer: And this all happened within 24 hours and all phone calls, which was just a glut of good news.
• 36:00
  Holly Brunnbauer: It was, but you know, the weird thing was Natasha, so one, I couldn't tell anyone, couldn't tell anyone about Shortlists, couldn't tell'em about the book Deal.
• 36:09
  Holly Brunnbauer: Two, you know, you would think like you would go out to dinner or you'd buy some, you know, real expensive champagne or something like that.
• 36:16
  Holly Brunnbauer: I had a three hour nap the next day.
• 36:19
  Holly Brunnbauer: I just sat there at my desk.
• 36:21
  Holly Brunnbauer: I, my, my eyes were so heavy I couldn't do any work, and I thought I just lay down for a second and three hours later I woke up.
• 36:28
  Holly Brunnbauer: I was drained and exhausted and just like all the adrenaline had run out of my body for sure.
• 36:34
  Holly Brunnbauer: Sure, yeah.
• 36:34
  Holly Brunnbauer: Like I needed to reboot or something.
• 36:36
  Holly Brunnbauer: It was such a weird feeling because I wasn't expecting that.
• 36:38
  Holly Brunnbauer: I was expecting that, oh wow, let's celebrate, let's go out to dinner and stuff.
• 36:42
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I was like, I'm just tired.
• 36:47
  Holly Brunnbauer: I'm so not what I thought I would feel in that moment.
• 36:50
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 36:51
  Natasha Rai: So, so what did you have to do with those two competitions?
• 36:54
  Holly Brunnbauer: So one of them I had to withdraw from because you, you couldn't have a book deal if like, I could be shortlisted, which was great, but you couldn't have a, a book deal in place.
• 37:04
  Holly Brunnbauer: Okay.
• 37:04
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yeah.
• 37:04
  Holly Brunnbauer: So I withdrew from that one and the other one adaptable, I could still be in it because you could be a published or unpublished manuscript, they accept.
• 37:11
  Holly Brunnbauer: Oh, right, okay.
• 37:12
  Holly Brunnbauer: Which was so good.
• 37:14
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I also then applied for a regional arts grant and they funded my trip to Brisbane.
• 37:21
  Natasha Rai: Amazing.
• 37:22
  Holly Brunnbauer: And so if anyone lives regionally, or even if you don't, your council might have things like that for professional development.
• 37:29
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I thought, I mean, even if I had to sell pictures of my feet to get there, I was going to get there, Natasha.
• 37:36
  Holly Brunnbauer: So I just, yeah.
• 37:39
  Holly Brunnbauer: But then I saw that they had this grant and it's like a 50 page long document.
• 37:43
  Holly Brunnbauer: I thought, surely people give up after page 20, but I'm gonna finish this.
• 37:48
  Holly Brunnbauer: And then I got the grant.
• 37:49
  Holly Brunnbauer: So I was like, I'm going to Brizy.
• 37:52
  Natasha Rai: And how was that experience, the adaptable, um, pitching?
• 37:55
  Holly Brunnbauer: It was amazing.
• 37:56
  Holly Brunnbauer: It was a really great experience.
• 37:57
  Holly Brunnbauer: Like nothing's come of it.
• 37:59
  Holly Brunnbauer: My, you know, there's no adaptation.
• 38:00
  Holly Brunnbauer: I'll just give full, you know, disclosure of that.
• 38:03
  Holly Brunnbauer: But I didn't care.
• 38:04
  Holly Brunnbauer: Like it was the first time I got to hang out with published authors and I was going to be one.
• 38:10
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yes.
• 38:10
  Holly Brunnbauer: 'cause and there were people that I admired and stuff and I, you know, I hadn't told anyone at that stage that I was going to be published, but I was like, guess what guys?
• 38:18
  Holly Brunnbauer: I've got a book deal.
• 38:20
  Holly Brunnbauer: And so that felt really great.
• 38:21
  Holly Brunnbauer: And they sort of, you know, it was almost like they embraced me and they brought me in and they just told me all the things that I was about to face.
• 38:28
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I really loved that.
• 38:29
  Holly Brunnbauer: Like, I thought that was really nice.
• 38:31
  Holly Brunnbauer: It was almost like an initiation type thing.
• 38:33
  Holly Brunnbauer: Uh, just welcoming me sort of to the side of publishing.
• 38:37
  Holly Brunnbauer: And now I was gonna see the next phase.
• 38:40
  Holly Brunnbauer: Um.
• 38:41
  Holly Brunnbauer: The pitching was great.
• 38:42
  Holly Brunnbauer: Like you do your first one and then by the time you get to your fifth, like you're just rattling it off and the nerves are gone.
• 38:48
  Holly Brunnbauer: So Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 38:50
  Natasha Rai: So just what an amazing few days of complete recognition and acknowledgement and just that kind of evidence that your work was just such high quality.
• 39:02
  Natasha Rai: I mean, you've got a book deal, which is the ultimate goal, right?
• 39:05
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yeah, I know.
• 39:06
  Holly Brunnbauer: But it is weird when you do get a book deal, you think you will feel validated.
• 39:11
  Holly Brunnbauer: And what I felt though a lot of the time was scared.
• 39:16
  Holly Brunnbauer: I constantly, like even once I had my book deal and I wasn't allowed to tell anyone, um, I thought I'll announce that I have an agent because at least you know I do have a book deal, so that's fine.
• 39:27
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I put together my newsletter, I put together my social media announcement, and then I panicked and I emailed my agent and said, can they pull back the book deal?
• 39:36
  Holly Brunnbauer: Like, could that happen?
• 39:37
  Holly Brunnbauer: And she's like, well, you know, it can always, they can always pull back.
• 39:42
  Holly Brunnbauer: Like there's things in there for different reasons, but Holly, like, it's fine.
• 39:45
  Holly Brunnbauer: It's not gonna, you know, she, she always talks me off a ledge.
• 39:47
  Holly Brunnbauer: I think she, she's used to me now and still.
• 39:50
  Holly Brunnbauer: I was like, I'm not hitting send on that newsletter.
• 39:52
  Holly Brunnbauer: I.
• 39:52
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I did not tell anyone until I announced the book deal.
• 39:56
  Holly Brunnbauer: 'cause I was in this constant worry that it was going to be taken away.
• 39:59
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yeah.
• 39:59
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yeah.
• 39:59
  Holly Brunnbauer: So now it felt like this thing that I wanted so bad, but it also felt like this thing that could just disappear at any moment.
• 40:05
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I was constantly on eggshells, worried that I would put a step wrong.
• 40:10
  Holly Brunnbauer: And that's what I'm talking again about that power imbalance that you do constantly feel scared, especially at the start.
• 40:16
  Holly Brunnbauer: Now I'm fine to email my publisher, we have a great old chat, but at the start it would take me an hour to like even just write back a sentence to her because I would overthink everything like, well how am I wording this and how is it coming across?
• 40:28
  Holly Brunnbauer: And what if she doesn't like me and what if she says, oh no, we found a better romcom.
• 40:32
  Holly Brunnbauer: You know?
• 40:32
  Holly Brunnbauer: I was just constantly having those thoughts.
• 40:34
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 40:35
  Natasha Rai: God, it's such a nerve wracking time.
• 40:38
  Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
• 40:38
  Natasha Rai: So then in terms of timing for you, Holly, what are we talking like from when you wrote that first draft to pitching to your agent to getting that contract signed?
• 40:47
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yeah, so I, um.
• 40:51
  Holly Brunnbauer: So I took a month to plan my story.
• 40:54
  Holly Brunnbauer: I did three months to do my first draft.
• 40:57
  Natasha Rai: God, that's fast.
• 40:58
  Holly Brunnbauer: I'm a fast first, like first draft writer.
• 41:01
  Holly Brunnbauer: Um, then I took a month off.
• 41:03
  Holly Brunnbauer: But also as I was writing that first draft, I have beta readers reading it hot, hot off the press.
• 41:08
  Holly Brunnbauer: Oh,
• 41:09
  Natasha Rai: okay.
• 41:09
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 41:09
  Natasha Rai: So
• 41:09
  Holly Brunnbauer: I get like real time feedback as well, which really helps, especially if I ask a question like, what do you think will happen next?
• 41:15
  Holly Brunnbauer: And then they'll say something and I'll go, I'm not gonna do that.
• 41:18
  Holly Brunnbauer: I'm gonna change it.
• 41:18
  Holly Brunnbauer: Actually, I'm gonna do something they don't expect.
• 41:22
  Holly Brunnbauer: So I love that feedback.
• 41:23
  Holly Brunnbauer: And then, so I take a month off.
• 41:25
  Holly Brunnbauer: Then I did my second draft, and that took me three months.
• 41:29
  Holly Brunnbauer: And then I took that to three other different beta readers.
• 41:33
  Holly Brunnbauer: 'cause now I need fresh eyes.
• 41:35
  Holly Brunnbauer: Mm-hmm.
• 41:35
  Holly Brunnbauer: And then again, took a month off, and then I did the third draft in a month.
• 41:42
  Holly Brunnbauer: Okay.
• 41:43
  Holly Brunnbauer: And then, and then at that point, for me, I was like, I, I'm ready to send it to the agent, but then I, you know, got the award, so then I couldn't.
• 41:50
  Holly Brunnbauer: At that stage.
• 41:50
  Holly Brunnbauer: That's right.
• 41:51
  Holly Brunnbauer: So that's right.
• 41:51
  Holly Brunnbauer: So then I just wrote something else.
• 41:53
  Holly Brunnbauer: I just wrote a new, like a new story.
• 41:55
  Holly Brunnbauer: Okay.
• 41:55
  Holly Brunnbauer: I was waiting.
• 41:56
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 41:56
  Natasha Rai: So, so about 18 months between writing that first a kind of idea that development and then having to wait and then going into Harper Collins.
• 42:08
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yeah.
• 42:08
  Holly Brunnbauer: So the, the waiting time I guess.
• 42:11
  Holly Brunnbauer: Oh God, it's sort of hard.
• 42:13
  Natasha Rai: I know it's, it's a while ago.
• 42:14
  Natasha Rai: I'm just trying to get a sense of it just so people can understand that.
• 42:17
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yeah.
• 42:18
  Holly Brunnbauer: Well the idea probably came to me, the first idea came to me in 2022.
• 42:25
  Holly Brunnbauer: And then I didn't start it though, start planning it until the end of that year.
• 42:28
  Holly Brunnbauer: Mm-hmm.
• 42:29
  Holly Brunnbauer: And then, so I wrote it in 2023.
• 42:31
  Holly Brunnbauer: That was the year I was working on it.
• 42:32
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yes.
• 42:32
  Holly Brunnbauer: Uhhuh.
• 42:33
  Holly Brunnbauer: And then I got my agent at the start of 2024.
• 42:36
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yep.
• 42:37
  Holly Brunnbauer: And then, you know, got the Harper Collins deal not long after.
• 42:41
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yeah.
• 42:42
  Holly Brunnbauer: Um, and then.
• 42:44
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yeah.
• 42:44
  Holly Brunnbauer: And then it's not coming out until July, 2025.
• 42:47
  Holly Brunnbauer: So it's July and it, yeah, so long.
• 42:49
  Holly Brunnbauer: So I think it was March that I got the, uh, the book deal.
• 42:53
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yeah.
• 42:53
  Holly Brunnbauer: And March, 2024, and now it's coming out July, 2025.
• 42:57
  Natasha Rai: It's so long.
• 42:58
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I remember when they said that, I was like, oh my God, I will have written like two books by then.
• 43:04
  Holly Brunnbauer: What are you doing to me?
• 43:06
  Holly Brunnbauer: Um, yeah, I just, I could not believe the length of time, and it's such a long time.
• 43:10
  Holly Brunnbauer: I think it's almost sickening the length of time because you're in this constant state of stress, prolonged stress.
• 43:17
  Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
• 43:18
  Natasha Rai: Um, and in terms of structural edits and all of that process, how was that generally?
• 43:23
  Natasha Rai: Was it okay?
• 43:24
  Natasha Rai: Was it stressful?
• 43:25
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yeah.
• 43:26
  Holly Brunnbauer: I, I think the anticipation of them was more stressful than when I got it.
• 43:30
  Holly Brunnbauer: When I got it, I was like, this is my jam.
• 43:32
  Holly Brunnbauer: This is my element.
• 43:33
  Holly Brunnbauer: I cannot control anything else except for the writing, and this is what I'm here for.
• 43:38
  Holly Brunnbauer: Like, I, yes, you know, this is my, you know, my, my zone of genius.
• 43:42
  Holly Brunnbauer: I loved it.
• 43:43
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I actually loved working with an editor.
• 43:45
  Holly Brunnbauer: I learned so much.
• 43:47
  Holly Brunnbauer: Like, I think they forget sometimes that we, uh, like, well, maybe you are not, but I, I, I'm an amateur writer, like, I don't have other experience, you know, there's no professional experience there besides writing courses, so I.
• 44:00
  Holly Brunnbauer: They'll say something and it's, it's almost like there's this assumption that you know what they're talking about.
• 44:03
  Holly Brunnbauer: I'm like, I don't know what you mean.
• 44:05
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yeah,
• 44:05
  Natasha Rai: yeah.
• 44:05
  Natasha Rai: I was the same.
• 44:05
  Natasha Rai: I was like, I dunno what that means.
• 44:07
  Natasha Rai: I had to Google, sometimes she would be like, you write like this, these types of sentences.
• 44:10
  Natasha Rai: I'm like, cool.
• 44:11
  Natasha Rai: Then I had to go Google it.
• 44:12
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yeah, yeah.
• 44:13
  Holly Brunnbauer: You don't know what, what all the, the lingo is.
• 44:16
  Holly Brunnbauer: And so I really loved it.
• 44:17
  Holly Brunnbauer: Like, I felt like I was learning, and I loved the copy edit.
• 44:19
  Holly Brunnbauer: That was probably my favorite.
• 44:21
  Holly Brunnbauer: And even my agent, I kept saying to her, I don't know what a copy edit is.
• 44:23
  Holly Brunnbauer: Like, what is it?
• 44:24
  Holly Brunnbauer: Can you explain it?
• 44:25
  Holly Brunnbauer: And she goes, she sort of explained it to me and she goes, don't worry, Holly, you actually really love it.
• 44:28
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I was like, when I got it, I knew what she meant because I love rules and I, I'm very finicky and I love detail.
• 44:35
  Holly Brunnbauer: So when I saw, like, most people would see like, oh, there's 8,000 changes you need to address.
• 44:39
  Holly Brunnbauer: I was like, okay, cool.
• 44:41
  Holly Brunnbauer: I had it done in like three days.
• 44:43
  Holly Brunnbauer: Nice.
• 44:43
  Holly Brunnbauer: It was fine.
• 44:44
  Holly Brunnbauer: Like I just, yeah.
• 44:45
  Holly Brunnbauer: I loved it.
• 44:46
  Natasha Rai: Awesome.
• 44:47
  Natasha Rai: Um, I'm so pleased for you.
• 44:49
  Natasha Rai: That sounds like, I know you said you were stressed, but it just, it sounds like.
• 44:54
  Natasha Rai: Such a dream, especially to have all those other short listings come through at the same time.
• 44:58
  Natasha Rai: But one of the other things you mentioned was your, uh, newsletter and, um, getting social media ready.
• 45:03
  Natasha Rai: Now you are a social media, like I think you're a social media queen because not only because you're not, you are amazing at it, but I am spectacularly bad at it.
• 45:12
  Natasha Rai: Um, and that's actually part of your day job as well.
• 45:17
  Natasha Rai: Like you are a virtual assistant, um, and you work with other writers.
• 45:20
  Natasha Rai: In fact, you're gonna be working with me next month to help me with my website.
• 45:24
  Natasha Rai: Um, is that always been something you've been interested in or how did you get into that line of work?
• 45:30
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yeah, so when it comes to, I guess like technology and things like that, I, like, I used to be a teacher and then I moved into what used to be called e-learning, which is online course creation.
• 45:42
  Holly Brunnbauer: But there was no courses back there to teach you how to do that.
• 45:45
  Holly Brunnbauer: I, it was just a skill that I had picked up because I was interested in technology and I love to.
• 45:51
  Holly Brunnbauer: Pick at things and learn things.
• 45:52
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I love to learn things myself and tinker.
• 45:55
  Holly Brunnbauer: Um, and when I was doing that, I actually became a blogger, but a professional blogger in that I monetized my, you know, my skill and, but I had to teach myself everything.
• 46:06
  Holly Brunnbauer: I had to teach myself how to put together a website.
• 46:08
  Holly Brunnbauer: I had to teach myself how to build a community, how to send a newsletter, how to do social media.
• 46:13
  Holly Brunnbauer: And when I was doing all that, I would have all these requests come in from people saying, I really like your voice.
• 46:18
  Holly Brunnbauer: Can you write something for me?
• 46:20
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I didn't know what they were talking about.
• 46:21
  Holly Brunnbauer: I was like, what do you mean?
• 46:22
  Holly Brunnbauer: Just write how you speak?
• 46:24
  Holly Brunnbauer: Like what, what's his voice business?
• 46:27
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yeah.
• 46:27
  Holly Brunnbauer: Um, but through blogging was how I acquired all of those skills.
• 46:32
  Holly Brunnbauer: So when I did switch over to, Hey guys, now I think I'm going to write a book, uh,'cause you know, if you wanna come along with me, this is what's happening.
• 46:40
  Holly Brunnbauer: I could just transfer those skills over.
• 46:43
  Holly Brunnbauer: So everything I've learned has just been me playing around with things.
• 46:47
  Holly Brunnbauer: And then.
• 46:49
  Holly Brunnbauer: I realized like a lot of other people don't know how to do these things.
• 46:53
  Holly Brunnbauer: Like I, I often think like, oh yeah, you know how to use Canva, you know how to use this.
• 46:57
  Natasha Rai: Nope.
• 46:58
  Holly Brunnbauer: No.
• 46:58
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yeah.
• 46:59
  Holly Brunnbauer: And like, because I'm in it every day and I'm doing those stuff, but I actually love all of that side of things, of being an author.
• 47:05
  Holly Brunnbauer: Like if I could do that all day for myself, I would, um.
• 47:10
  Natasha Rai: Oh, that just sends chills down my spine.
• 47:13
  Holly Brunnbauer: Whereas I just, yeah.
• 47:14
  Holly Brunnbauer: And like you said, I am a very visual person, so I love that.
• 47:17
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yes.
• 47:17
  Natasha Rai: Because I was gonna say that visual quality that you mentioned earlier really comes through'cause it's, they're so beautifully put together.
• 47:24
  Natasha Rai: There is such a distinctive brand as well.
• 47:26
  Natasha Rai: That is so, you like, you, like I recognize every time you post.
• 47:31
  Natasha Rai: I'm like, that's Holly, without even looking at.
• 47:33
  Natasha Rai: Who it is, like the account.
• 47:34
  Natasha Rai: 'cause it's so distinctive.
• 47:36
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yes.
• 47:37
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I have my green, my love of green, which apparently is very millennial of me.
• 47:43
  Holly Brunnbauer: They're coming after green now.
• 47:44
  Holly Brunnbauer: Natasha, how dare they?
• 47:45
  Holly Brunnbauer: Oh god.
• 47:47
  Holly Brunnbauer: Uh, yeah.
• 47:48
  Holly Brunnbauer: So I just acquired skills that way and then I thought, you know what?
• 47:50
  Holly Brunnbauer: I'm going to put together a business.
• 47:52
  Holly Brunnbauer: I actually, I heard another author on a podcast talk about that she needed a virtual system but she didn't know why she needed one.
• 47:58
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I just went and had a like little stalky stalk of her online and I was like, wow, you need to update your website doesn't even have your latest book.
• 48:06
  Holly Brunnbauer: You need to update your bio.
• 48:07
  Holly Brunnbauer: You need to have, um, your events here.
• 48:09
  Holly Brunnbauer: You need to do this, need to do that.
• 48:11
  Holly Brunnbauer: I just wrote this whole list for her.
• 48:12
  Holly Brunnbauer: 'cause I just get like that sometimes.
• 48:13
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I was like, here are all the things you need.
• 48:15
  Holly Brunnbauer: And before I was about to send it, I was like, hold on.
• 48:17
  Holly Brunnbauer: I know how to do all that stuff.
• 48:19
  Holly Brunnbauer: What if I tell her that I can do that stuff for her?
• 48:22
  Holly Brunnbauer: And so that's how it started.
• 48:23
  Holly Brunnbauer: 'cause she was like, okay, I'll just hire you to do it.
• 48:26
  Holly Brunnbauer: Like,'cause I knew exactly what she needed.
• 48:28
  Holly Brunnbauer: Um.
• 48:29
  Holly Brunnbauer: And then from that I was like, okay, I'm a virtual assistant now.
• 48:32
  Holly Brunnbauer: Does anyone else want work?
• 48:34
  Holly Brunnbauer: And then it's just filtered through from word of mouth, which has been great.
• 48:38
  Holly Brunnbauer: You know people, yeah.
• 48:39
  Holly Brunnbauer: They can see that I know what I'm doing.
• 48:41
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yes.
• 48:42
  Holly Brunnbauer: And that I can help other people.
• 48:43
  Holly Brunnbauer: And so, which is like the best form of marketing, isn't it?
• 48:46
  Holly Brunnbauer: Recommendations and word of mouth.
• 48:47
  Holly Brunnbauer: Because then people are like, she's solid.
• 48:49
  Holly Brunnbauer: She knows what she's doing.
• 48:50
  Holly Brunnbauer: Look at this amazing thing she did for me.
• 48:52
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yeah.
• 48:53
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yeah.
• 48:53
  Holly Brunnbauer: So that's how it sort of all came about.
• 48:55
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I sort of have realized what.
• 48:58
  Holly Brunnbauer: I wanna do, like, I don't wanna do everything for everyone.
• 49:01
  Holly Brunnbauer: I think at the start I was kind of doing everything and now I was like, no, I specialize in branding websites, newsletters, and I don't do people's social media, but I do a strategy session to teach them how to do it.
• 49:12
  Holly Brunnbauer: Okay.
• 49:12
  Holly Brunnbauer: Because I one, most authors cannot afford a social media VA ongoing.
• 49:19
  Holly Brunnbauer: Only those who are perhaps full-time bestsellers.
• 49:23
  Natasha Rai: Yes, for sure.
• 49:24
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yeah.
• 49:24
  Holly Brunnbauer: Or they have a really great, you know, day job that pays really well and they can supplement that, that's fine, but most people can't.
• 49:31
  Holly Brunnbauer: And also, I just think it's a really handy skill to have.
• 49:34
  Holly Brunnbauer: So I like to actually sit there and tailor a strategy to a person at the point that they're at.
• 49:39
  Holly Brunnbauer: Like if they're very new to social media.
• 49:41
  Holly Brunnbauer: I'm not gonna say, you have to do this reel and you have to dance like a monkey and you know you need to do these things.
• 49:47
  Holly Brunnbauer: Um,'cause they're not gonna do it.
• 49:48
  Holly Brunnbauer: Mm-hmm.
• 49:49
  Holly Brunnbauer: So I'm like, very basic.
• 49:50
  Holly Brunnbauer: I'm like, so just do this and just do the, you know what I mean?
• 49:53
  Holly Brunnbauer: Okay.
• 49:53
  Holly Brunnbauer: And if they are someone who's very on camera, I'm like, right, we can go, we can start from this point with you and now these are the things that I would recommend that you do.
• 50:01
  Natasha Rai: Okay.
• 50:02
  Natasha Rai: So then without kind of asking you to give too much free advice, what would you say or what is your advice to writers?
• 50:11
  Natasha Rai: It, it sounds like what you're saying is, and I'm just gonna paraphrase, start from where you are.
• 50:16
  Natasha Rai: Like, start with what you feel comfortable with.
• 50:18
  Natasha Rai: Is that right?
• 50:19
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yes, absolutely.
• 50:21
  Holly Brunnbauer: But I find you do have to push yourself out of your comfort zone.
• 50:25
  Holly Brunnbauer: So one thing that I Yeah, I know, and Natasha, I heard you talk, you say something on one of the episodes where you said, oh, I go to post and I think that's too boring and I don't Yes.
• 50:35
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I, I wanna talk to you about that.
• 50:36
  Holly Brunnbauer: You need to reframe it.
• 50:38
  Holly Brunnbauer: What you are posting isn't boring.
• 50:41
  Holly Brunnbauer: It's relatable.
• 50:43
  Holly Brunnbauer: Mm.
• 50:44
  Holly Brunnbauer: Anything that you think is boring is very normal to other people, and they probably wanna have a talk about it because if you are just posting the big, exciting things and I'm at this festival and I'm doing that, the, the other people can't relate.
• 50:57
  Holly Brunnbauer: Like, yeah, they'll be like, that's cool.
• 50:59
  Holly Brunnbauer: Natasha's doing really cool things, but they can't really have a conversation with you about that.
• 51:03
  Holly Brunnbauer: And so I'll give you an example, two times in my life when I've had the most dms that I've ever had in my life was one when I announced my book deal.
• 51:10
  Holly Brunnbauer: Fantastic.
• 51:11
  Holly Brunnbauer: Amazing.
• 51:11
  Holly Brunnbauer: Great.
• 51:11
  Holly Brunnbauer: Thank you people.
• 51:12
  Holly Brunnbauer: The other time was when I talked about how I made Mee Goreng noodles and how my cousin makes Mee Goreng noodles.
• 51:18
  Holly Brunnbauer: I just jumped on my stories one day.
• 51:19
  Holly Brunnbauer: I don't know why.
• 51:20
  Holly Brunnbauer: I was just like, oh, I didn't realize people made them different way.
• 51:24
  Holly Brunnbauer: My dms like blew up.
• 51:26
  Holly Brunnbauer: It took me a week to get through it.
• 51:27
  Holly Brunnbauer: People wanted to tell me how they make their big green noodles and which way they thought was the proper way.
• 51:33
  Holly Brunnbauer: And people who never comment, you know how people lurk, which I lurk to.
• 51:36
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 51:37
  Holly Brunnbauer: People who never have a chat all of a sudden just jumped in and want to have a conversation.
• 51:43
  Holly Brunnbauer: And you might be thinking, Holly, but how does that relate to book sales?
• 51:46
  Holly Brunnbauer: And the way it relates is that you are connecting with people.
• 51:49
  Holly Brunnbauer: You're not always selling with them.
• 51:51
  Holly Brunnbauer: You don't wanna create, you don't need more followers.
• 51:54
  Holly Brunnbauer: You need a stronger connection with the ones that you already have.
• 51:58
  Holly Brunnbauer: So you need to talk to them about things they wanna talk about.
• 52:00
  Holly Brunnbauer: And apparently noodles is something people wanna talk about.
• 52:03
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 52:04
  Natasha Rai: Okay.
• 52:04
  Holly Brunnbauer: But the other thing to remember is that people buy from people that they like.
• 52:10
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I'm not saying you have to be a likable person, but what I mean is you have to have a like-mindedness with people.
• 52:17
  Holly Brunnbauer: So there has to be something there that they gravitate towards that isn't just your book.
• 52:22
  Holly Brunnbauer: Because you are only, you know, your book's out for a very small period of time.
• 52:26
  Holly Brunnbauer: You can't just go back into your writing cave and not be on social media and front up and be like, Hey guys, sorry I haven't been here for a while.
• 52:33
  Holly Brunnbauer: Uh, but now I have a book out because then that's transactional.
• 52:37
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yeah.
• 52:37
  Holly Brunnbauer: You haven't put in the effort.
• 52:39
  Holly Brunnbauer: You haven't, like, you are just there to sell to someone and they're going to sense that immediately.
• 52:44
  Holly Brunnbauer: You have to have these ongoing relationships.
• 52:46
  Holly Brunnbauer: And then when it, when it does come time, when your book's out, people are so excited for you, they wanna support you, whether they buy it or not.
• 52:54
  Holly Brunnbauer: They might share it, they might recommend it to a friend, but you know, you ask someone that they feel is their friend and is like them.
• 53:03
  Holly Brunnbauer: So that's one of my top tips.
• 53:04
  Natasha Rai: Okay.
• 53:04
  Natasha Rai: I feel like you've just blown my mind in like hundred different ways.
• 53:09
  Natasha Rai: I've got, I've got more.
• 53:10
  Natasha Rai: See, because I never, like, I knew it theoretically that you, you can use social media to connect with people, but.
• 53:16
  Natasha Rai: I guess, because I don't necessarily always connect with people like that.
• 53:20
  Natasha Rai: I just had assumed that the type of people who might connect with me wouldn't.
• 53:25
  Natasha Rai: But that is obviously not true.
• 53:27
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yeah.
• 53:28
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yeah.
• 53:28
  Holly Brunnbauer: I'm gonna give an example of not talking about your book, uh, and how, you know, you can still talk about topics and themes.
• 53:36
  Holly Brunnbauer: Kylie Orr who I think has been on this podcast before, uh, she's a great example of social media and her newsletter because she talks about things that, uh, so she has a newsletter called, If I'm Honest, and she talks about things that outrage her, and they always have a feminist spin and she's, you know, really, um, dismantling the patriarchy and stuff like that.
• 53:58
  Holly Brunnbauer: And so she's talking about something, not about her book.
• 54:01
  Holly Brunnbauer: You know when you read her book that they're going to have themes like that in there.
• 54:06
  Holly Brunnbauer: Mm-hmm.
• 54:07
  Holly Brunnbauer: So she's just talking about things that are on topic, you know, especially for women.
• 54:12
  Holly Brunnbauer: 'cause that's her target reader.
• 54:13
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yes.
• 54:13
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yeah.
• 54:14
  Holly Brunnbauer: You know what I mean?
• 54:14
  Holly Brunnbauer: And so I know, like, I honestly love her newsletter.
• 54:18
  Holly Brunnbauer: I will make a cup of tea.
• 54:19
  Holly Brunnbauer: I will sit down and I will read it.
• 54:21
  Holly Brunnbauer: But I also know whenever I front up to her, I will stop my scroll because I know I'm gonna learn something or I'm gonna be provoked in some way.
• 54:30
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I just, you know, I think that's a really clever way of making sure she's always there.
• 54:36
  Holly Brunnbauer: You know, people know who she a, who she is.
• 54:39
  Holly Brunnbauer: She gets asked a lot to, uh, host, you know, interview people for events and things like that.
• 54:45
  Holly Brunnbauer: And the reason that is, is because when her book's not out, she doesn't go and hide.
• 54:49
  Holly Brunnbauer: Mm.
• 54:49
  Holly Brunnbauer: She's still on camera.
• 54:51
  Holly Brunnbauer: You see her speak.
• 54:52
  Holly Brunnbauer: You can tell she's a great speaker.
• 54:54
  Holly Brunnbauer: She's very funny, she's very witty.
• 54:55
  Holly Brunnbauer: So she's front of mind.
• 54:57
  Holly Brunnbauer: And then when she goes and does those events, her book is there at those bookstores when she's interviewing people.
• 55:02
  Holly Brunnbauer: So she's making sales.
• 55:04
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yeah.
• 55:04
  Holly Brunnbauer: Do you know what I mean?
• 55:05
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I'm not saying Kylie does this in a strategic way.
• 55:07
  Holly Brunnbauer: I think she just, that is her.
• 55:10
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yeah.
• 55:10
  Holly Brunnbauer: But it actually works in her favor.
• 55:13
  Natasha Rai: And so, and so what about different social media platforms?
• 55:17
  Natasha Rai: Like is your, again, is your, does your advice come back to where are you at now and what is suitable to you?
• 55:24
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yeah, I think you need to find somewhere that you are comfortable being at.
• 55:28
  Holly Brunnbauer: Mm-hmm.
• 55:28
  Holly Brunnbauer: So maybe that's not even a social media platform.
• 55:31
  Holly Brunnbauer: Maybe that is substack.
• 55:33
  Holly Brunnbauer: Mm-hmm.
• 55:33
  Holly Brunnbauer: Or maybe you wanna start a podcast and interview people.
• 55:37
  Holly Brunnbauer: It doesn't have to be social media platform.
• 55:40
  Holly Brunnbauer: Okay.
• 55:40
  Holly Brunnbauer: You do have to have a level of comfort because I think what I hear all the time from authors is, I hate social media.
• 55:46
  Holly Brunnbauer: I don't wanna be there.
• 55:48
  Holly Brunnbauer: Now just think about that.
• 55:49
  Holly Brunnbauer: If someone rocked up to a party and they said, I don't wanna be at this party, and they stood in the corner and they folded their arms.
• 55:56
  Holly Brunnbauer: Mm-hmm.
• 55:56
  Holly Brunnbauer: Do you think anyone's gonna wanna sit with that person?
• 55:59
  Holly Brunnbauer: No, of course.
• 55:59
  Holly Brunnbauer: Or approach them?
• 56:00
  Holly Brunnbauer: No.
• 56:00
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yeah.
• 56:01
  Holly Brunnbauer: So you are bringing that energy to social media if that's how you feel about it.
• 56:04
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I honestly, even if your publisher says you should be on social media, I disagree.
• 56:08
  Holly Brunnbauer: I think you should be somewhere you feel comfortable, because if you're bringing that vibe, it's not gonna work anyway.
• 56:15
  Natasha Rai: Yes.
• 56:15
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 56:16
  Natasha Rai: That's so true.
• 56:17
  Holly Brunnbauer: And maybe that's not the medium where you express yourself.
• 56:19
  Holly Brunnbauer: Maybe you do need long form, so like a substack or a newsletter, or maybe you do wanna have a chat and you want to create a YouTube channel or you know, or a podcast or something like that.
• 56:31
  Holly Brunnbauer: Or maybe you instead go to your local library and say, Hey, do you have authors booked in?
• 56:37
  Holly Brunnbauer: I'd love to interview them.
• 56:39
  Holly Brunnbauer: I'll read their book and, and ask them the questions you can get out and, you know, be in the community in some way that feels comfortable to you.
• 56:47
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 56:48
  Natasha Rai: So when you, and you don't have to get specific, but when you're working with writers who maybe are, are deathly terrified or just uncomfortable
• 56:56
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yeah.
• 56:57
  Natasha Rai: With any real kind of publicity, how do you approach that?
• 57:02
  Holly Brunnbauer: So I just say don't talk about yourself, talk about other people.
• 57:05
  Holly Brunnbauer: Oh, I see.
• 57:05
  Holly Brunnbauer: And also that's a great thing to do.
• 57:07
  Holly Brunnbauer: Like talk about other books that are in your genre.
• 57:10
  Holly Brunnbauer: Talk about other authors, support other people.
• 57:13
  Holly Brunnbauer: Um, I don't think you need to talk about yourself until you feel comfortable to do that.
• 57:19
  Holly Brunnbauer: But the other thing I think is, especially for women, I think it's really hard for us to do that.
• 57:24
  Holly Brunnbauer: But what I say is lie your freak flag.
• 57:28
  Holly Brunnbauer: And that means you tell people who you are and what you're about.
• 57:33
  Holly Brunnbauer: So own that.
• 57:34
  Holly Brunnbauer: Own that.
• 57:35
  Holly Brunnbauer: Like you don't always have to be talking about your book.
• 57:38
  Holly Brunnbauer: 'cause like I said, you're trying to strengthen that connection.
• 57:41
  Holly Brunnbauer: So if you like something else, if you like, I don't know, knitting, swing dancing, if you like making salami, I don't know if you like pugs like me, just tell people who you are because this is your platform.
• 57:54
  Holly Brunnbauer: If people don't like it, they'll bugger off.
• 57:56
  Holly Brunnbauer: That's true.
• 57:57
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yeah.
• 57:57
  Holly Brunnbauer: But what you'll do is you'll actually attract the people who do like it, and they'll stay, and you'll be having a good old chat with people who like what you like.
• 58:05
  Holly Brunnbauer: Therefore, you are actually going to enjoy the experience.
• 58:08
  Holly Brunnbauer: Like when I front up to social media, I never think I'm going to advertise to people or market them to sell my book.
• 58:14
  Holly Brunnbauer: I'm like, I wanna talk to my friends.
• 58:16
  Holly Brunnbauer: So I've, you know, I talk about things that of interest to me.
• 58:20
  Holly Brunnbauer: Motherhood, pugs, building a house, other things.
• 58:25
  Holly Brunnbauer: And all those people who like that, they're going to come to me.
• 58:27
  Holly Brunnbauer: And yes, maybe some of my readers, they're probably not, you know, they might not be at an age if they're mothers or maybe they haven't, you know, chosen to be a mother or whatever.
• 58:36
  Holly Brunnbauer: So they're not, they're gonna tune out for that part.
• 58:38
  Holly Brunnbauer: That's fine.
• 58:39
  Holly Brunnbauer: That's okay.
• 58:40
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yeah.
• 58:40
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yeah.
• 58:40
  Holly Brunnbauer: But it's my life and it's my platform.
• 58:42
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 58:43
  Natasha Rai: That's true.
• 58:43
  Natasha Rai: So I'm gonna talk about it's Yeah, exactly.
• 58:45
  Natasha Rai: Because I know I'm much more comfortable posting about books I've read and loved.
• 58:49
  Natasha Rai: Yes.
• 58:49
  Natasha Rai: That's, I love doing that because I'm like, oh, let's, I'm so excited about this book.
• 58:53
  Natasha Rai: Um, yes.
• 58:53
  Holly Brunnbauer: And people will feel that energy, Natasha.
• 58:56
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 58:57
  Natasha Rai: My god, these are such good tips.
• 59:01
  Natasha Rai: I'm, I'm really aware that we are nearly out of time, which is, that's okay.
• 59:05
  Natasha Rai: I'm really sad about, because I wanna ask you so much more.
• 59:09
  Natasha Rai: Um, but, so just, I mean, you've already given us lots and lots of tips, but I, I suppose I'm curious about if you have anything that you would've, would've helped you or that you wanna pass on to other writers who might be either a, writing on the verge of a publication deal or, you know, I don't know, still looking or submitting any of that.
• 59:33
  Natasha Rai: Is there anything that you would pass on from what you know now?
• 59:37
  Holly Brunnbauer: Yeah.
• 59:37
  Holly Brunnbauer: So I have two things.
• 59:38
  Holly Brunnbauer: Is that okay?
• 59:39
  Natasha Rai: Of course.
• 59:40
  Holly Brunnbauer: Okay.
• 59:41
  Holly Brunnbauer: Um, my, my, my first thing is even if you, you know, you're, you don't have a book deal or whatever, please don't feel like you can't immerse yourself in the writing community and that your presence isn't welcomed or valid.
• 59:54
  Holly Brunnbauer: I promise you it is.
• 59:56
  Holly Brunnbauer: Uh, you can start that damn newsletter or post on social media without ever knowing if you're going to be published.
• 1:00:03
  Holly Brunnbauer: You can be part of the writing and reading community, and you're welcome to be there.
• 1:00:07
  Holly Brunnbauer: Do not think that, yeah, that it's not a space for you and that you have to wait for permission.
• 1:00:14
  Holly Brunnbauer: I started my newsletter three years ago.
• 1:00:15
  Holly Brunnbauer: I didn't know if I'd ever get published, but I still freaking sent it every month, you know what I mean?
• 1:00:21
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I just write about random.
• 1:00:22
  Holly Brunnbauer: I wrote about my personal life, I wrote about my writing life, whatever the books I love.
• 1:00:27
  Holly Brunnbauer: Just do that.
• 1:00:27
  Holly Brunnbauer: Just tell people again who you are, and they'll come to expect it.
• 1:00:31
  Holly Brunnbauer: The ones who don't like it, they can go away, and the ones that do, they'll stick around.
• 1:00:34
  Holly Brunnbauer: And then when you have that book deal, they're gonna be so damn excited for you.
• 1:00:39
  Holly Brunnbauer: So that's my first tip.
• 1:00:41
  Holly Brunnbauer: My other one is to get feedback.
• 1:00:46
  Holly Brunnbauer: Feedback is so valuable when you're writing, especially when you start because you have this beautiful confidence that everything you write is amazing.
• 1:00:55
  Holly Brunnbauer: And I promise you it's probably not, uh, it probably is, maybe yours is.
• 1:00:59
  Holly Brunnbauer: Mine definitely wasn't like what I was writing.
• 1:01:02
  Holly Brunnbauer: Oh my God, a cringe so bad.
• 1:01:04
  Holly Brunnbauer: But you need that feedback because you do have a confidence that you don't have later on, unfortunately, when you second guess yourself about everything.
• 1:01:12
  Holly Brunnbauer: Um, but you'll just learn a lot.
• 1:01:14
  Holly Brunnbauer: But get feedback from a professional, like a course do the Australian Writers Center so that you're getting feedback that's not in a.
• 1:01:22
  Holly Brunnbauer: You know, some people can be very blunt and they're not really aware of your feelings.
• 1:01:25
  Holly Brunnbauer: Whereas people who give feedback all the time, they're really used to like giving you, you know, telling you the things you're doing well as well.
• 1:01:31
  Holly Brunnbauer: You actually need to hear that.
• 1:01:32
  Holly Brunnbauer: You just be like this, these are your strengths.
• 1:01:35
  Holly Brunnbauer: So then, you know, to lean into them, but also here's some things you might not be aware of and here's how you can fix them.
• 1:01:42
  Holly Brunnbauer: You need feedback like that.
• 1:01:44
  Holly Brunnbauer: So that would be my other thing.
• 1:01:45
  Holly Brunnbauer: Don't send something off that's never seen the eyes of another professional.
• 1:01:51
  Holly Brunnbauer: Um, even if it's like, do, do not send it.
• 1:01:53
  Holly Brunnbauer: Like I'm not talking about your friend or your partner or something like that.
• 1:01:57
  Holly Brunnbauer: Someone who's not gonna blow smoke up your Yeah, yeah.
• 1:02:01
  Holly Brunnbauer: We know what, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:02:03
  Natasha Rai: No, no, that is excellent advice because yeah, because I think a lot of people, um, get such glowing feedback maybe from family and friends and think, okay, this is great, but that is excellent advice actually.
• 1:02:14
  Natasha Rai: You've given us so much.
• 1:02:16
  Natasha Rai: So I'm really grateful for your generosity.
• 1:02:19
  Holly Brunnbauer: Oh, thank you Natasha.
• 1:02:21
  Natasha Rai: I've had such a blast talking to you, Holly.
• 1:02:23
  Natasha Rai: Um, thank you again for coming on and for the listeners out there, What Did I Miss?
• 1:02:27
  Natasha Rai: is out on the 2nd of July.
• 1:02:29
  Natasha Rai: Uh, so it will be out by the time this episode airs.
• 1:02:32
  Natasha Rai: Um, so read it and then you can come back and listen to what we're talking about.
• 1:02:38
  Natasha Rai: Thanks, Holly.
• 1:02:39
  Holly Brunnbauer: Thank you so much.
• 1:02:40
  Natasha Rai: Bye.
• 1:02:45
  Tina Strachan: Thank you for listening to the Book Deal podcast.
• 1:02:48
  Tina Strachan: If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to the pod so you can receive updates as soon as our new eps drop and to keep up to date with what the pod is doing.
• 1:02:57
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