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Abstinence Only Education · Why We Do What We Do

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: You're listening to Why we do what we do. Welcome
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: to Why we do what we do. I am your
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: dogmatic ideological host educator Abraham.
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: And I am your say no to everything host Shane.
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  Speaker 1: We are a psychology podcast. We talk about the things
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  Speaker 1: that humans and non human animals do, and sometimes we
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  Speaker 1: talk about the things that they do, but we pretend
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  Speaker 1: that they don't do, and how we try and build
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: that into our education system. I suppose sure that's a
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: good way to look at it. Yeah, so welcome and
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: I thank you for joining us. If this is your
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: first time, then I hope that you enjoy what you
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  Speaker 1: hear today. If you're a returning listener, then welcome back,
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  Speaker 1: and we hope that you continue to seek us out
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  Speaker 1: and enjoy what you hear. Either way, if you like
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  Speaker 1: us a rating and a review, like wherever you listen, subscribe,
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  Speaker 1: wherever you listen, tell a friend. I'll talk more about
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: that at the end of this discussion. But this episode
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: publishes January fourteenth, So happy cesarean section Day also called
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: c section Day.
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  Speaker 2: YEP, which you won't need if you listen to this episode.
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  Speaker 2: It's also Feast of the ass, which is I guess
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  Speaker 2: specifically donkey related.
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  Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, m hmm. Yeah, it's International kite Day.
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  Speaker 2: Yes it is. It's Macar Sankranti, which is I believe
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  Speaker 2: traditional Indian celebration of life, but I'm not quite sure.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, National Dress Up your Pet Day. This is not
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  Speaker 1: a traditional Indian celebration of life.
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  Speaker 2: Nope. But I do love that as well. It is
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: a national hot Pastrami Sandwich Day. I mean, if you
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  Speaker 2: can find a vegan version, that's cool.
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  Speaker 1: I have found them and they are quite good. Love it.
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  Speaker 1: National un Undaiya Undhia Day, I have if I butcher.
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  Speaker 2: That is also nov God which is Russian New Year.
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  Speaker 1: Okay. It is Organize your home Day. Ooh, dig that
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  Speaker 1: a lot.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, it is Orthodox New Year.
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  Speaker 1: Hmm. Okay. It is Ratification Day, which does not mean
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  Speaker 1: turning something into a rat I.
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  Speaker 2: Mean no, I mean, could it could be.
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  Speaker 1: It could be.
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  Speaker 2: You know, words words are interesting for that reason. Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: it's a Saint Basil's Day or Basil's Day.
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  Speaker 1: That plant is quite saintly.
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: The patriot state of herbs, that's right.
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  Speaker 1: It is take the stairs Day.
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  Speaker 2: Love that. It is World Logic Day.
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  Speaker 1: That kind of feels in keeping with our topic. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: it is Cuckoo Dancing Week. It's also kind of feels
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  Speaker 1: and keeping with our topic.
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  Speaker 2: Yes it does. It is a home office safety and
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  Speaker 2: Security week.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, that is International Printing Week.
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  Speaker 2: And it's National mocktail Week.
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  Speaker 1: Oh that makes sense, dry January and all. Yeah, and
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  Speaker 1: National Pizza Week.
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  Speaker 2: Love that, so many pizza this week and every day
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  Speaker 2: this week?
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  Speaker 1: Maybe indeed, so those are some days, some holidays that
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  Speaker 1: maybe you celebrate publicly or privately or in a small
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  Speaker 1: group or something. But that's actually not why we are here. Instead,
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  Speaker 1: we are talking about things that humans do, as I
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  Speaker 1: described upfront, and I think that that is all the
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  Speaker 1: preamble before we get into our topic.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so. I think that covers it.
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  Speaker 1: All right, and sex all right, Now we've got your attention.
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  Speaker 1: So we're going to say some things that are not
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  Speaker 1: really news to a lot of you. But sometimes I
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  Speaker 1: feel like pointing out the obvious is important when we
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  Speaker 1: start to discuss why the implications of this are what
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  Speaker 1: they are, and they maybe feel unintuitive. So anyway, I
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  Speaker 1: want to start with the obvious here. Sex is something
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  Speaker 1: that animals. Most animals do, not all of them, but
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  Speaker 1: most of them do it, and that includes humans. If
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  Speaker 1: we didn't, there wouldn't be any more humans. I know
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  Speaker 1: this stating in the obvious, but it's worth understanding that
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  Speaker 1: that is like again stating the obvious, has its purpose
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  Speaker 1: in this the rhetorical exercise we're taking on.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, and so throughout the animal kingdom, sex can often
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  Speaker 2: be brutal and even physically damaging. Some species don't even
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  Speaker 2: survive the act of copulation look at anglerfish for example.
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  Speaker 1: True, and some spiders. But fortunately we humans have language
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  Speaker 1: which allows us to make choices that facilitate sexual interactions
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  Speaker 1: with less harm and less unintended consequences or fewer unintended consequences.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, and as we have decided that we're all going
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  Speaker 2: to live around one another and work cooperatively together to
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  Speaker 2: maintain our survival, we collectively decided that the most efficient
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  Speaker 2: strategy for preparing new generations was to establish institutes of education.
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  Speaker 2: Among the many subjects that are taught at these schools
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  Speaker 2: was education about sex. So there is sex education in
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  Speaker 2: some places.
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  Speaker 1: Yes. Now, conservatives tend to dislike these institutions, and largely
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  Speaker 1: because these institutions schools and whatnot, they foster intellect, and
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  Speaker 1: intellect is anathema to conservative values and goals, so they
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  Speaker 1: often work to undermine the effectiveness of those institutions by
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  Speaker 1: electing people to pass policies that weaken the education system.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, which is so unfortunate. Hey, Abraham is anathema a
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  Speaker 2: new band?
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  Speaker 1: Yes? Okay, oh yeah, So do a quick vocabulary aside.
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  Speaker 1: I'm not sure if we've covered this word before, but
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  Speaker 1: anathema is essentially something that is hated and very much
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  Speaker 1: counter to something else. So intellect is anathema to conservativism. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: it is the enemy of it, if you will. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: that sort of thing.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, okay, that makes sense.
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  Speaker 1: I like it.
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  Speaker 2: I like it great. So we're talking about education systems
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  Speaker 2: and policies that come up. One such policy that a
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  Speaker 2: lot of people like to vote for and to undermine
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  Speaker 2: education systems is called abstinence only sex education or abstinence
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  Speaker 2: only education or sexual risk avoidance. These policies outline what
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  Speaker 2: can and what cannot be taught about schools with respect
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  Speaker 2: to information about sex. Sexual risk avoidance has many different
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  Speaker 2: points of emphasis that vary by state, but most of
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  Speaker 2: the importance is stressed on abstinence until marriage. Meaning don't
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  Speaker 2: have sex until you're married.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, this term sexual risk avoidance that has become essentially
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  Speaker 1: the rebranded, de facto new term for abstinence only education.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the diddy of abstinence education. There you go,
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  Speaker 2: as opposed to puff daddy.
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  Speaker 1: If you hear sexual risk avoidance education or just sexual
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  Speaker 1: risk avoidance, that is a smoke screen for abstinence only education.
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  Speaker 1: It sounds better to call it that because they know
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  Speaker 1: that abstinence only is going to be something that people
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  Speaker 1: hear and think, I don't agree with that, but they
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  Speaker 1: hear sexual avoidance and they're like, Okay, I agree with that,
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  Speaker 1: But they're the exact same thing. Sure, similar to like
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  Speaker 1: how facilitatedication rebranded itself as raptid prompting, same exact thing,
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  Speaker 1: just different name. Anyway, anyone with more than two actively
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  Speaker 1: working neurons in their brain could see from a mile
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  Speaker 1: away that this was going to be a colossal failure,
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  Speaker 1: and it was. So we are going to describe abstinence
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  Speaker 1: only education. It's prevalence in the United States, its history,
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  Speaker 1: and the truly staggering amount of research that has repeatedly
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  Speaker 1: and exhaustively shown that this plan, this abstinence only education,
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  Speaker 1: the sexual risk avoidance. It does not work right, and
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  Speaker 1: we'll talk about what does work instead.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, we will. So let's get into a little bit
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  Speaker 2: of history about sex education in the United States. This
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  Speaker 2: is going to be I imagine for those of you
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  Speaker 2: who are listening who like the show, this will not
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  Speaker 2: be a surprise.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: However, it's important to note what's going on here. So
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  Speaker 2: during the First World War there's debilitating amount of venereal
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  Speaker 2: disease spreading among soldiers. So the Chamberlain con Act of
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  Speaker 2: nineteen eighteen was established to quarantine women suspected of having
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  Speaker 2: venereal diseases and to educate soldiers about sexually transmitted infections
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  Speaker 2: or STIs.
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  Speaker 1: So this is nineteen eighteen. Just one year later, in
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  Speaker 1: nineteen nineteen, the Department of Labor's Children's Bureau.
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  Speaker 2: Well, can we talk about that for a second. The
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  Speaker 2: Department of Labor Children's Bureau, meaning that there had to
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  Speaker 2: be a contingent of the government focused on child labor.
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  Speaker 1: See something of that nature. Yes, yeah, it's something I
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  Speaker 1: feel like I now need to look into. But anyway,
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  Speaker 1: in nineteen nineteen, the Department of Labor's Children's Bureau released
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  Speaker 1: a report suggesting that sex education in schools would likely
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  Speaker 1: have prevented some, if not a lot, of the spread
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  Speaker 1: of STIs among soldiers. So thinking very practically about this
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  Speaker 1: and the importance of the military with respect to a
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  Speaker 1: world war. In the twenties, sex education started being taught
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  Speaker 1: in high schools in the United States.
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  Speaker 2: It's so interesting that, I mean, of course, this is
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  Speaker 2: just on track with America, right, Like it takes a
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  Speaker 2: war for us to start caring about education for people
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  Speaker 2: in some way, Like it couldn't have been anything else.
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  Speaker 2: It hadn't have been war.
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  Speaker 1: Oh, it's quite America.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so American. Now, with the introduction of sex
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  Speaker 2: education in high school, many things began developing from there.
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  Speaker 2: Colleges started offering courses on sexuality. Training programs for teachers
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  Speaker 2: about how to teach sexual education arose. Councils were formed,
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  Speaker 2: advocacy groups were formed, more policies were written to specify
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  Speaker 2: what was to be included in curricula, et cetera, et cetera.
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  Speaker 2: Like you'll find that like there was kind of like
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  Speaker 2: a snowball effect where like lots of things started moving
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  Speaker 2: very rapidly as a result of this initial act Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: So starting in the nineteen twenties it started to exist.
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  Speaker 1: But then all of these things grew from that. There
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  Speaker 1: was multiple groups and councils and branches of things and
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  Speaker 1: people weighing in on this topic. But hark, the first
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  Speaker 1: tsunami of stupid crashed into the United States in nineteen
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  Speaker 1: eighty one. Ronald Reagan uh huh now relatively harmless and
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  Speaker 1: a damn near liberal compared to the authoritary Nazism that
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  Speaker 1: grew into Magotism. Reagan's administration was responsible for something called
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  Speaker 1: the Adolescent Family Life Act or AFLA. This is also
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  Speaker 1: comically referred to as the Chastity Act. And what it
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  Speaker 1: did was mandate funding for sex education that only emphasized abstinence.
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  Speaker 1: So this is sort of where it started. The real
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  Speaker 1: shift began, was that, yeah, catalyst event.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, of course it was under the Reagan administration. Like, yeah,
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: the amount of punk bands that came out that were
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: actively voicing their hatred towards the Reagan administration could not
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  Speaker 2: be understated. Like every single punk band at the time
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: was had a song about Reagan. It's just unbelievable. I
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: mean there was even a band called Reagan Youth. So
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  Speaker 2: just you know, just a little things like that. So
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  Speaker 2: all this money was being allocated towards the Chastity Act
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  Speaker 2: and emphasizing abstinence only. But for the fiscal year of
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  Speaker 2: twenty twenty five, the federal government spent one hundred and
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  Speaker 2: ten million dollars on absence only education programs now rebranded
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  Speaker 2: as Sexual Risk Avoidance Education or SRO which thankfully is
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  Speaker 2: down from twenty years ago, but up from only seven
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  Speaker 2: years ago. So in total, the government has spent about
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  Speaker 2: two billion dollars on SROA since nineteen eighty two.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, there's a lot of money that could have been
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  Speaker 1: spent on more productive things like ADS. So yes, I
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: think maybe some people hear two billion and they think
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  Speaker 1: that relative to the amount the government spends on other things,
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  Speaker 1: that's not that much in a sense, right, And like
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  Speaker 1: that's still money that could have spent elsewhere, including I guess,
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  Speaker 1: on ADS, but definitely on better on better things and
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  Speaker 1: more effective things. But Okay, in case you're unclear about
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  Speaker 1: the term, as we sort of briefly talked about this abstinence,
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  Speaker 1: this is the word we're talking about. It refers to
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  Speaker 1: any act of refraining from enjoyable bodily activities. It's not
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  Speaker 1: necessarily exclusive to sex. Abstinence from drugs means never taking
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  Speaker 1: any drugs. Abstinence from alcohol means never drinking any alcohol.
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  Speaker 1: Abstinence from sex means never having sex. And how it's
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  Speaker 1: applied here is until married or until you join a priesthood,
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  Speaker 1: and then it's never.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean this is different than sobriety, right,
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  Speaker 2: Like somebody who is in recovery, like they may abstain
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  Speaker 2: from drinking alcohol. But like what we're talking about here
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  Speaker 2: is like a lot of time sex education is starting
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  Speaker 2: with very early age and saying hey, don't do this
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  Speaker 2: until you are in this space. Like the sex education
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  Speaker 2: like connotations of abstinence are a little bit different than
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  Speaker 2: other spaces.
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  Speaker 1: I think that's fair and that's true that like in
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  Speaker 1: this particular application, it means preventing it from ever happening
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  Speaker 1: in the first place, whereas in something where people attain sobriety,
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  Speaker 1: it's changing from something that they have already done. Right right,
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  Speaker 1: There is I think a relevant difference there. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, the practice of abstinence only education includes but it's
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  Speaker 2: not limited to teaching one only the gains and benefits
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  Speaker 2: of abstaining from sex. Two that sexual activity outside of
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  Speaker 2: marriage is abnormal and only healthy sexual activity happens after marriage.
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  Speaker 2: Three that refraining from sex until marriage is the only
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  Speaker 2: or best way to avoid unwanted pregnancy and STIs. And
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  Speaker 2: four that mutually monogamous sexual relationships with a marriage partner
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  Speaker 2: is the expected standard.
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  Speaker 1: There are more so. Five is that sex outside of
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  Speaker 1: marriage has harmful physical and psychological effects. Six is that
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  Speaker 1: having a child out of wedlock has harmful consequences for
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  Speaker 1: the child, for the parents of that child, and for
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  Speaker 1: society at large. Seven They teach just to reject sexual
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  Speaker 1: advances and avoid drugs and alcohol, which make sex more likely. Sidebar.
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  Speaker 1: You can see our note on DARE for a breakdown
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  Speaker 1: of why that doesn't work. Yeah, and then eight I
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: think I'm on eightier eighth bullet. Yeah, they teach to
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  Speaker 1: attain self sufficiency before engaging in sexual activity.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. So that's a lot to unpack for something that
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  Speaker 2: just says, hey, don't do it right.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: But the presumed purpose of abstinence only sex education is
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  Speaker 2: to tell kids that they should not have sex until
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  Speaker 2: they're married, so they don't have unwanted pregnancies or spread
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  Speaker 2: or contract STIs, which also come with a myriad of
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: other health problems.
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  Speaker 1: I think you can hear some of this and think
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  Speaker 1: that sounds reasonable and you agree with it, and there
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  Speaker 1: are parts of it that I think are not on reasonable.
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  Speaker 1: I think saying that, like, ideally you don't have a
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  Speaker 1: child out of wedlock. That's not that there's any harm
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: to the child, that part is wrong, but like it
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  Speaker 1: might be ideal to have a two parent situation to
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: share the load of childcare, or have some other setup
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: in the community that facilitates childcare, which some cultures do have, right,
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  Speaker 1: So it's not like that's the only way to do it,
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: but like in an ideal like in the United States,
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: childcare it comes fairly secondary to work and work and work.
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: So in that particular case, they tend to see it
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: as one person's job becomes childcare and that means that
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: they don't necessarily get to work. And anyway, with all
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: that being said, having a child outside of that could
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: be more difficult to do when you don't have a
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: community of support. Right, So those are some considerations, and
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: you might hear that and think, Okay, that sounds reasonable,
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  Speaker 1: and then also like saying that, like, once you're in
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: a committed a relationship remaining faith fully monogamous. Of course,
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: that's generally going to be the ideal because otherwise people
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  Speaker 1: can get hurt. It's not to say that every single
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: thing that they want to emphasize is completely wrong, but
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  Speaker 1: the way they do it and the effect that it has, I.
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  Speaker 2: Think it's incomplete, right, Like it's just the big thing
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: is like it's incomplete.
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  Speaker 1: It's definitely incomplete. Yes, yeah, it's definitely very incomplete. That
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: is definitely important part of it. Unfortunately for proponents of
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: abstinence education, nature is also telling kids that they should
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: have sex, and it is telling them much much, much louder,
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: and much more often than the abstinence and instruction that
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: they are receiving.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, so do the AIDS epidemic of the nineteen eighties,
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  Speaker 2: many sex ed programs started teaching about AIDS and AIDS prevention.
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: In fact, they probably saw AIDS as a boon to
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: their cause, another disease about which they could scare children
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: into obstaining from sex. So they otherwise maintained their anti
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: sex position.
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: But did speak to some like AIDS prevention and scare
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: tactics around AIDS. Sure, okay, so breakdown of how sex
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  Speaker 1: education policy may exist, broadly speaking, like whether or not
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: this is absence or not, but like if you have
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: sex education policy. Eventually they realized they had to sort
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: of have some guidelines around which the curricula. The curriculum
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: was organized. It may or may not include one whether
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: or not sex education is taught at all in a state.
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  Speaker 1: Two whether it covers stresses or does not include information
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  Speaker 1: about abstinence. Three whether it includes information about contraception, which
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  Speaker 1: is not a given, and four whether it includes information
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  Speaker 1: about consent. There's actually a fifth one, which was whether
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  Speaker 1: or not includes any information about relationships and like healthy relationships.
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: But these are those four or sort of the common
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  Speaker 1: ones that represent how states like you could sort of
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: just have a yes no box across different states for
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: each one of those types of domains.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely. Now, currently only thirty six states in District
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: of Columbia even require that sex education be taught at all.
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  Speaker 2: It's no longer even the case that all states must
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: teach medically accurate information. Some states where it does not
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  Speaker 2: mandated also stress abstinence and do not require information about
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: contraception or information about consent. These states include Arizona, Arkansas, Connecticut, Florida.
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  Speaker 2: Of course, of course it's Florida, Idaho, Massachusetts, Michigan, Nebraska,
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  Speaker 2: New York, Pennsylvania, South Dakota, and Wisconsin. Super interesting that
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: this is not a blue state, red state thing.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I was actually very surprised to see Massachusetts and
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: New York on there in particular. A lot of the
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: other ones are like common offenders. Yeah, that did surprise me.
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  Speaker 1: Now again, this is essentially that in those states there
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  Speaker 1: is no requirement that they have set to education. It
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, they just don't have
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: a requirement for it. Sure, it may or may not
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: include stress about abstinence. What if there is sex education,
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: and in most of these it is stressed. And these
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: stays do not require that the education include information about contraception,
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: and these states do not require that includes information about consent.
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: So it doesn't mean that those things are completely absent.
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: But there are going to be schools that don't include this,
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: and they are behaving with respect to the laws as
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: they are written.
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: Yes, And I think the other side of this too
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: is that every state, even the ones that do require
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: some level of sex education, have an option for people
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: to opt out. Parents can opt out of every one
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: of them has an opt out option, So like a
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: student can go, a parent can go, no, I don't
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: want my child to participate in this, and there is
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: an opt out version, like they're required to provide it,
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: but the parents could say, no, I don't want this
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: for whatever reason. And part of the reason that that
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: that's so apparent is that when it comes to disabilities,
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: where you and I work with disabilities, so often ninety
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: four percent of people with disabilities never access sex education
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: programs because their parents will opt out of it as
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: a result of you know that kind of like that
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: trapdoor that exists right.
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: Right well, and then as you were sort of pointing
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: out here, like there are thirty six that require it,
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: but there's only like even the ones that do require
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: it often do not have requirements about consent, do not
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: have requirements about contraception. Right, there's only I think eleven
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: or fewer states that require all of the things. It
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: requires that they teach sex education. It requires that it's
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: medically accurate, it requires that it covers contraception, it requires
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: that it talks about consent, It does not stress abstinence.
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: It's like a very small proportion around a fifth of
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: the states that have all of those requirements as part
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: of the laws that it is taught. Now, as you said,
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: there's still the opt out feature, but even the ones
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: that have some requirements don't necessarily have all the requirements
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: right exactly.
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: It's again very incomplete.
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, and that's and will definitely start to get
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: into some of what has been found in the research
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: when they dig into the actual policies and curricula that
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: are designed in the sexual risk avoidance curriculum that exists. Yeah,
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: they're also not required to play ads. Ah, or maybe
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: I should have said they are required to play ads. Anyway,
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: we're back. So we have sort of been unpacking the
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: history and overview of policy as it relates to sex
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: education and abstinence only or sexual risk avoidance education. So
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: then we asked the question, which, of course you know
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: the answer to, did it work? Hmm.
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: There's a really great Drug Church song called but does
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: It Work? And it's about like somebody figuring out like
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: their own sexual history and preferences and stuff. It's really good.
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: Interesting also great band name, drug Church. Yeah, so the
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: question of did it work? Mercifully, this is one of
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: those things you can study in measure and determine specifically
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: how well it's working if you're open to learning whether
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: or not what you are doing is actually working, which
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: at the time most people were. They aren't today people
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: don't really care, at least not the people in power.
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: They don't care if this is working or not, because
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: they don't really care about data or science or anything
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: about people at all. Yeah, they're not at all interested
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: in humans. They're interested in power, money. But we can
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: actually see whether or not sex education is working.
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. When this was established, there was data collection
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: and there was interest about whether or not this was effective,
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: and that was at least in part because if it
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: was effective, they would love to have the data to
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: back that up. So there had been some monitoring for
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: a while. But we're now in a position where if
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: they don't like the numbers, they just fire the person
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: who gave them the numbers.
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: They're like, I'll hire someone who tells me the numbers
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: I do want to hear, and that's what happens. Anyway,
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: How would you know this well? Part of the goals
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: as we as we identified earlier, some of the goals
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: of this sexual risk avoidance education are fewer. The less
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: spread of scis fewer adolescent pregnancies. I think they didn't
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: explicitly say this, but you could lump in there, like
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: fewer cases of sexual assault happening potentially, And so those
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: are things you can measure, like you have systems by
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: which those things are reported, and yes, they could go
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: under reported, and they most likely do. And as we'll
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: get to this, in states where they have SREE, they
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: are very underreported. Anyway, those are dependent variables we can
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: measure and say did this change, did it have an effect?
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: And wow, there has been a lot of research on this,
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: like and the overwhelming amount of scientific, peer reviewed, objective, empirical,
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: indisputable research YEP. Saying sexual risk avoidance education doesn't work
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: is like saying Epstein engaged in appropriate behavior, right, meaning
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: it's a drastic understatement. SRIE has been a spectacular failure
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: to the point of being actually counterproductive, which is impressive.
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: I mean, you can be just ineffective, yeah, but to
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: actually put something in place and have it work the
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: opposite of its intention is pretty bad, and.
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: We keep doing it. It happened with Dare. Yeah, it's
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: just incredible. It's incredible. These like high moral ground programs
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: always end up being the worst possible thing for society.
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: They are so counterproductive to the well being of people
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: in general.
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: So did I tell you that we got stopped by
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: some people fundraising for a DARE outside of a grocery store,
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: just like a few months ago. What. Yeah. Yeah, we
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: were leaving and they're like, oh, I want to talk
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: to you about this. And then they're like, oh, we're
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: trying to get more funding for the DARE program. I'm like, no, no.
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: No, thanks, I'm not wish I could do that today.
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: I'm just gonna walk away.
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I've seen a lot of more petitioners lately. Somebody
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: told me they stopped me because they were like, I
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: bet you got some kind eyes behind those glasses. I
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: was like I do, and I just went. I just
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: kept going because I was like, you're not gonna stop
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: me to sign a petition that I don't have time
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: to read. So I'll do that work other places. But
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: if somebody said DARE, I'd be like, oh boy, here's
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: a podcast for you. So a two thousand and six
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: paper published in the Journal of Adolescent Health, while attempting
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: to diplomatically promote the value of abstinence recognize the issues
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: with SRAE programs, and even concluded that these programs are
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: quote morally problematic by withholding information and promoting questionable and
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: inaccurate opinions absence only speaking of abstinence only programs, abstinence
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: only threatens fundamental human rights to health, information and life
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: end quote. That is a scathing review of these programs.
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: And this is like them trying to be nice.
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah right.
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: They start the like when when I first started reading
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: this article, I was like, oh, this is one of
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: the pro abstinence articles because they're like, obviously abstinence is
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: one hundred percent effective against things like STIs, and then
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: they're like, unfortunately it doesn't work.
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: So you're like, oh, okay, yeah.
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: All right. So a two thousand and seven review, this,
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: by the way, is not going to go necessarily in
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: chronological order. It will kind of go in chronological order,
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: but it's going to jump around a bit.
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: So that was two thousand and six. A two thousand
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: and seven review of the extant literature from Aught and
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: Santelli in Current Opinion and Obstetric and Gynecology reported that
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: independent evaluations, systematic reviews, and cohort data from population based
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: surveys found no evidence of effectiveness from sra programs and
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: even found evidence of harm. So this was them reviewing
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: the existing literature on this and reporting back.
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and you might be saying, Shane and Abraham, Shabraham
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: if you will, that's only two studies that can't be enough.
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: Don't worry, there's more. Two more papers from twenty seventeen
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: found that SRAES programs do not delay sexual initialization or
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: reduce sexually risky behaviors. They will withhold medically accurate information
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: and often a spouse scientifically false information, stigmatize or exclude
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: some youth, reinforce harmful gender stereotypes, and undermine public health programs.
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: All right, so we have four papers.
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: Furthermore, SRAE does not teach how to prevent STIs when
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: engaged in sex, and instead only reported on the failure
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: rates of contraception methods. This is actually from those recent
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: papers that you were citing, and so anyway, they only
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: reported on failure rates of contraception, and that means that
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: they tell students that condoms or other birth control methods
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: fail a certain percentage of the time, and of course
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: what they're trying to do is they're trying to essentially
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: say like, don't have sex and use contraception because contraception
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: doesn't work anyway, which of course would actually happens. Is
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: that students think that if they're going to have sex,
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: they may as well not bother with condoms or other contraception,
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: and that means that there is an increase in STIs
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: and unwanted pregnancies.
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: Right, So basically they scare them about condoms, so they
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: don't use condoms and they're going to have sex anyway,
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: and all the things they're trying to prevent actually get
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: worse because they've scared them out of using condoms.
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: YEP.
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: Research has shown that more of state spends on SRAE,
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: the higher the rates of adolescent pregnancies and births in
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: those states, So again it's getting worse. They're spending more
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: money on a program doesn't work and actually encouraging pregnancies.
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: By just having this in place, they tend to also
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: see higher rates of STIs, which result in higher rates
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: of complications that can result in even death. And finally,
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: SRA programs teach the LGBTQ plus is deviant and wrong,
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: and these states tend to have higher rates of violence
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: against and suicides among LGBTQ plus youth YEP.
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: All right, so that's those studies. A two thousand and
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: six article and the Journal of Adolescent Health found is
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: unethical by being quote inherently coercive and often providing misinformation
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: and withholding information needed to make informed choices.
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: So that's five studies. A six study says. Specifically, A
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: twenty twenty one study in the Journal of Sex Education
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: surveyed fourteen to eighteen year old students in Indiana and
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: found that students reported that absence only education does not
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: relate to them, and that they want to learn about
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: healthy sexual activity. So you've got a group of people
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: that actually want to learn about this and can't get
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: access to it from the public health system.
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: YEP. A twenty twenty four study and the Journal of
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: Adolescents assessed four thy six hundred and twenty students, so
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: let's say, almost five thousand students across forty four states,
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: and found that education aimed at delaying sexual initiation until
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: sexual maturity instead of until marriage. So let me say
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: that a little bit different, just a little bit slower.
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: So they had essentially you could either teach weight to
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: have sex until you're sexually mature, or wait to have
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: sex until you're married. Educating them to wait until they
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: were sexually mature was somewhat effective at reducing sexually risky behaviors,
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: which they abbreviate as SRBs. And what's interesting here is
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: in addition, when they found the students who had stronger
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: beliefs in favor of abstinence, it did not result in
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: fewer SRBs.
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: Interesting another study in two thousand and six. Apparently this
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: was a topic in two thousand and six. You know,
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: it's funny. I wish I would have had more sex
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: education in two thousand and six because that's when I
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: had my baby. So like, apparently I missed. I missed
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: this train. Yeah, you know, if I had waited a year,
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: you were in Florida, I mean as Florida, So like,
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: there was no way I was going to access this anyway.
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: They reported that some of these SRA programs asked students
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: to sign virginity pledges, in which some cases may have
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: delayed sexual initiation, but eighty eight percent of students who
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: signed these pledges still had sex before marriage were less
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: likely to use condoms the first time that they had sex,
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: and we're less likely to get to said for STIs
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: once they were sexually active. Eighty eight percent.
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: Eighty eight Yeah, which for those of you who struggle
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: with math, that's most of them, almost all, it's.
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: Very close to all.
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: A two thousand and eight study reviewing the SREE curricula
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: found that up to eighty percent of all the materials
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: up to eighty percent used for sexual risk avoidance education
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: contained false, misleading, or distorted information. So these they went
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: through and reviewed the curriculum and they're like, wow, almost
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: all of this again for those mathematically challenged among us,
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: eighty percent, but almost all of this is like it's
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: completely wrong, Like it's just lies, fabrications, misleading, or it's
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: like contains a kernel of truth, but it's distorted in
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: a way that makes it interpreted as being false.
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: Right right, right now. Research has also shown that they
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: are high rates of sexual assault in states that emphasize SRIE.
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: So not only do you have risks of unwanted pregnancies
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: and teen pregnancies and STIs and the spread of STIs
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: and the lack of contraception and all these things, now
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: you've got a higher rate of sexual assault, in violence
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: like we said before to LGBTQ folks, and suicide among
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: those groups. So like it's just bad all around.
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And the thing is, the public isn't even on
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: the side of this when they've surveyed respondents. Seventy percent
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: of respond and survey do not support abstinence only education
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: in schools, and most parents even report wanting schools to
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: provide comprehensive information about healthy sexual activity. Apparently a huge
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: chunk of those people, however, vote for candidates who do
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: promote abstinence only education. I guess they would just rather
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: have an AIDS riddled, pregnant twelve year old than a
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: Democrat be in charge. Wish granted. I guess.
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's it's it's astounding the amount of people that
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: vote against their interests.
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so we kind of vote against our interests when
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: we play ads.
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: Of course we do. Okay, we're back.
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: So we have extolled the virtues of abstinence only education,
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: just kidding. We have criticized it to death because the
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: research is abundantly, abundantly clear. It is a failure and
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: results in worse outcomes by every measure that you would
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: want to have those outcomes measured right to try and
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: support it whether or not you're for it. So it
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: has failed. So where do we go from here?
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean you might hear this and think that
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: we're advocating for promiscuity and sex promoting programs, and of course,
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: if your choosing to listen to us at all, you
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: are probably smarter than that. The opposite of absence only
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: education is not sex free for all. We're not talking
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: about the free love movements of the sixties that resulted
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: in lots of different problems and hopelessness in the seventies
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: and all the societal collapses that happened later. We're not
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: talking about that or burning Man or burning Man, which
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: is its own thing. It's a comprehensive sexual health information
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: education program that includes education about contraception, consent, healthy relationships,
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: interpersonal violence, gender orientation, in identity questions like lots of
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: that stuff.
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: Like.
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: Comprehensive sex education is not just how to use a condom,
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: how to avoid an STI, where to get tested. It's
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: so much more complex than that. And we we advocate
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: strongly advocate for a comprehensive sexual health program very.
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: Much so so. The American College of obstetricians and gynecologists
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: defines a comprehensive sex education as quote, medically accurate, evidence based,
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: and age appropriate education about anatomy, sexuality, gender, and relationships
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: empowers and prepares children, adolescents, and young adults to make
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: educated decisions about their health and the relationships end quote.
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: The way I set that up made the sentence feel
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: a little grammatically weird, but that was their statements as
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: they were describing comprehensive sex education.
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: Yes, that does not mean that sex educators are going
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: into kindergarten classrooms and teaching people how to use condoms. Yeah,
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: that is not what's happening there. So just so that
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: we're clear, when they say age appropriate, they are talking
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: about what's relevant across lifespan development, which would include anatomy
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: and body safety and things like that. Not hey kids,
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: I know you're learning your abcs, but let me teach
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: you a word the clap like. It's not doing that.
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: That's not what the sex educators are doing. And that's
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: what people in Florida think is happening. By the way. Yeah,
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: like people who love these abstinence only programs think that
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: is what sex education is, is teaching kids how to
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: have sex. This is not at all what it is. Yeah,
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: it's infuriating. There are a couple of specific programs that
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: have been created and established to receive federal funding to
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: this goal that we've talked about this comprehensive sex education.
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: The Teen Pregnancy Prevention TPP and Personal Responsibility Education Program
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: PREP each have separate target populations and goals, but both
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: fund only evidence based programs that have importing requirements to
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: monitor the effectiveness of their interventions.
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: So this Teen Pregnancy Prevention or TPP was established in
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: twenty ten and has as its primary mission to prevent
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: adolescent pregnancy using evidence based methods. It has been shown
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: to have significant decreases in teen birth rates and places
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: where it has been implemented. Then they do have a
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: relatively strict ongoing monitoring system to evaluate if it's having
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: the intended effect.
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: And for my behavior analyst friends out there who are
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: listening to this, if you are familiar with Anthony Biglan,
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: he has done some work in this area. Like he
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: has worked on grants and programs that have helped develop this.
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: If not the TPP program, he has worked on similar
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: programs that have had similar effects. Love him, Yeah, go
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: read Nurture Effect for more evidence and more descriptions of
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: that bonus recommendation. Now the prep program is more oriented
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: towards homeless youths and houseless youths and tends to focus
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: more on preventing pregnancy in the spread of STIs. Although
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: it includes information about abstinence, its most significant focus is
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: on healthy relationships and healthy life skills.
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: Like ninety five percent those things, yes, when I saw
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: the breakdown, Yeah, yeah, And those are just some of
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: the programs that exist, Like those are ones that are
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: aside from the sort of standard sex education comprehensive curriculum,
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: which does include things about contraception. It says like how
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: it works, how to use it correctly, not that there's
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: like live demonstrations or anything, but they can obviously show
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: you like and talk about what it is and how
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: to do it. They talk about like how to identify
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: like healthy relationships, how to nurture healthy relationships, how to
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: get out of healthy relationships. They teach about consent that
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: like consent is an important thing, how to give consent,
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: how to recognize when consent has not been given, And
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: so they actually have as a focus really important features
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: about any kind of sexual or even just basic relationship
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: dynamic to help people again make educated decisions so that
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: they don't think that they're trapped in a situation that
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: they otherwise should have some control. Yeah, and might otherwise
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: be coerced into thinking that they don't have a way out.
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: Okay, so let's get to some interesting tidbits tid points here.
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: So first thing here is humans are guns to have sex.
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: There are guns to do it. Borrowing from Brooklyn nine nineties,
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: they're going to have sex. They're just going to. Biologically,
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: evolution found a fool proof and future proof way to
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: make sure our species keeps going, providing us with an
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: innate drive to have sex. Fortunately, we are smart enough
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: to make deliberate choices about this, and so we shall
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: with help from the scientific community. But we do have
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: that drive. So it's really about managing the way to
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: make it as safe as possible and as workable as
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: possible for people. Where again it's just making deliberate, intentional choices.
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So, regardless of which persuasion you hail from, we
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: all generally agree that the outcome we want is fewer
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: unwanted pregnancies, less transmission of sdis and less sexual assault.
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: That feels like a pretty that's a low hay fruit
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: to agree on.
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: It does feel like low hanging fruit. The disagreement really
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: is how we get there. One group of people depends
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: entirely on wishful thinking and fear. Those are the abstinence
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: only SRA group in case that wasn't clear. Uh huh.
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: The other group of people depends on evidence and science
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: about what actually works because they care about the outcome
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: and not just about the process.
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, if SRA worked, lead be in support of it.
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: That's truly what it is. Like, if it was a
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: program that worked and was efficient, it could be a
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: political But at the end of the day, it's not.
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: It doesn't work. SRAE programs do not work. Not only
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: is it ineffective, it accomplishes the opposite of its stated goals.
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: It actually makes things worse. Supporting SRA means supporting unplanned,
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: unwanted adolescent pregnancies, supporting the spread of STIs, and supporting
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: sexual assault and suicide, including against minors and LGBTQ plus folks.
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, Like, if you support this, then those are
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: the things that you're in support of. Violence against youth,
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: sexual assault against youth unwanted pregnancies. STIs because the evidence
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: shows that's what you get when you put these programs
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: into place. Yes, so, and like we have now known
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: this for decades. Yeah, decades. This isn't new, Like we've
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: known for a very long time how ineffective this is. Right, So,
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: like the writing is beyond on the wall, it's tattooed
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: on the inside of your eyeballs. There's no escaping it.
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: It has failed, and it is time to abandon this
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: failing system. Like there's nothing to salvage here, it's just garbage.
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: So like, go with comprehensive sex education if you care
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: at all about things like sexual assault, suicide among youth,
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: and like preventing unwanted pregnancies and STIs. Absolutely it's black
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: and white. Like it's black and white. It's that clear.
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: It could not be clear. I'm astounded that we were
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: that we even have to have a conversation.
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and again, like it's because the government still funds
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: these programs. And I didn't look into this necessarily. This
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: was a very US centric thing because I'm aware of
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: the lens of this is a problem in the United States,
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: but I'm sure other countries deal with a similar thing,
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: where it's whether or not it's mandated, and what emphasis
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: is placed, and what is included or excluded. And I'm
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: sure there's some countries who do it very very well, right,
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: and then there are some that do it very very poorly,
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: and abstinence only is a very very poor way to go.
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: Absolutely well.
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: I thought there was so much content here that we
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: would be running a long but we actually finished in
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: a relatively reasonable amount of time. Do you have closing
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: thoughts other things to say? Add your own opinion about this.
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: I have so much to say about it as somebody
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: who like is a practitioner in the sex education world,
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: as somebody who is doing this, like, it's just so
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: frustrating because at the end of the day, it is
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: ultimately just harms. It's just people are getting harmed. That's
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: just what it is. And we have to just be
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: reasonable and thoughtful about the programs that we support. This
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: is one that just has shown time and time again
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: it does not work. Yes, there are complex political maneuverings
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: and levers pull and all this stuff, and I understand
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: all of that, but at the end of the day,
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: we know definitively, just like dare it does not work.
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: So let's have a conversation about what to do, because
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: I think at the end of the day, the goal
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: is to prevent these problems from occurring. So let's put
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: our heads together, let's sit at the same table, and
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: let's try to figure out exactly how to go about
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: that in a way that's more meaningful, more effective. And
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: we know what works already, so let's do that. It's
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: one of those things where it gets so frustrating because
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: you just watch it happen. You're like, what are we
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: doing here, Like we've seen we know this doesn't work,
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: we know it doesn't work, and we're just wasting money
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: in time.
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's arguably like worse than Dare. I mean, like
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: Darro was a pretty colossal failure, but like this, this
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: has been spectacularly ineffective. I mean really astonishing how bad
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: it is. And I mean darre is too. But they
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: are actually kind of inherently linked politically, but not explicitly.
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: They're not does you know, they're not the same exact
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: programs or anything like that. Linked morally there you go, Yeah,
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: we are linked morally accurate. Well, if you would like
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: to write and tell us your thoughts on abstinence only education.
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: We would love to hear from you. You can email
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: us directly at info at wwdwwdpodcast dot com, or reach
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: us on the social media platforms. We do look forward
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: to hearing from you. Thank you all for listening and
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: making it this far through it. At the end of
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: our discussions on our full length episodes, we recommend some things.
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: We also have some minis that we put out that
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: are just these short ten to fifteen minute dives let's
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: come out on Mondays. This is not that, and we
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: don't recommend things at the ends of minis because they're
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: meant to be short. But these ones we have a
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: little bit of room, so we're just gonna let it
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: ride and talk about more stuff. Before we get to
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: some recommendations though we have, we will want to get
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: through the credits, and before we get to the credits,
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: we'll need to get through some ads. Oh no, all right,
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: we're back just in time for everyone's favorite. I need
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: to say all the things which are very important, and
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: I want to say them, but I don't know people
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: hear things anyway. Point being here is that if you'd
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: like to support us, there are many ways you can
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: do that. You can join us on Patreon. If you do,
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: you will get ad free content, bonus content, early episodes,
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: all that sort of thing, and I will read your
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: name on the list of people who have taken the
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: lead to support us, because it is just so generous
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: and so thoughtful and so amazing that these people would
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: be willing to continue to help us be a podcast.
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: So thank you so much to our dear patron supporters,
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: Mike m Mike T, Justin, Kim Brad, Stephanie, Brian, Ashley,
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: Kiara and Charlie. Thank you all again for just continuing
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: to be you.
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: You're the best people. You're the best people ever.
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: And if you would like to have your name read,
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: you can go over to our Patreon join us for
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: any amount of dollar end up. There is a free
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: tier and we do appreciate people joining us there too,
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: but it does not come with all the same person
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: benefits as others. And the more you can give, obviously
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: the more generous. We have some more benefits for those positions.
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: You can also if you would not like to support
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: us financially, just leave us a rating and a review
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: wherever you listen. You can do just a rating, you
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: could do just a review. I think you probably have
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: to do a rating if you're doing a review, but
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: who knows what your platform does? Or you can tell
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: a friend and that word of mouth is a very
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: important way to spread and support podcasts, and that's pretty
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: much how we get to spread around the most. Yea,
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: so please do that thing. Thank you so much to
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: my team of people, without whom I could not make
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: this podcast running and fact checking from Shane and myself.
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: Thank you for recording with me today.
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: Shane, hey, anytime.
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: My friend, our social media coordinator is Emma Wilson. And
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: the person who stitches all this audio together to make
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: a listenable podcast as Justin, who is very good at
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: what he does.
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: Justin's the best. He's beautiful, and he's a real person.
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: Definitely a definitely real person. You actually hear his voice
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: when you hear the recommendations jingle. Anyway, I think that
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: is what we have to say before we get to
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: our recommendations. Is there anything that I am missing or
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: you'd like to add before we make our transition? No,
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: all right, let's have some fun and recommend some things.
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: Yay, recommendations. All right, so I'm gonna recommend a collection
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: of poems. I will admittedly say I'm not very well
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: versed in the world of poetry. I've written poetry as
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: I think many people do. But one person I've always
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: enjoyed is Charles Bakowski, and I just finished a collection
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: of his poems called The Last Night of the Earth Poems.
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: This is a collection that was released in nineteen ninety two.
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: It is a pretty big collection, So if you are
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: intimidated buy poetry and all that stuff, this might be
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: a hard place to start. But I also think that
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: this is like a really good example of Charles Pakowski
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: really coming into his own I think a lot of
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: people will hear Charles Bakowski and know that he is
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: kind of like a little bit rough around the edges.
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: He doesn't really particularly talk about women in a nice light.
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: He kind of talks about alcoholism in like a romanticized way.
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: He is like kind of like like he's kind of
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: known for being like a dirty old man type of thing.
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: I think that when people hear Charles Packowski the he
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: might think that a little bit. I think this is
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: an example of what is really representative of Charles Pakowski's
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: actual work. Like I think it's less about the women
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: he slept with and like the beers he drinks, and
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: more about the experience of life and living on kind
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: of like the outskirts in the edges of society and
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: just like a human experience. It's beautiful. It is a
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: great collection. It covers a wide span of his like
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: kind of his works in the way that he thinks
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: about it. Yes, there are some rough poems in there,
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: but like, for the most part, it's the really good
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: collection of poems, and it's one of my favorites that
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: I've ever read by him. So, if you ever give
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: a chance, the Last Night of the Earth Poems by
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: Charles Bakowski is one of his better collections, I think.
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: Interesting. Yeah, I'll definitely have to check out some of them.
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: I also am not super well versed in poetry, but.
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he has these beautiful moments that shine and you're like, oh,
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: this is why he's considered contemporary great And then every
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: down and you read one, you're like, oh, that's just grit,
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: you know, like, but he's but he does. I think
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: that he's just that's just you're gonna have those You're
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: gonna have those those writers, you.
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: Know, Okay, well, fair enough. All right, I'm recommending something
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: that many of you will have seen by the time
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: that I recommend it. But this is Stranger Things season five.
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: So they did a weird release on this. They released
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: like about half of the season, and then a few
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: weeks later they released a few more episodes, and then
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: like a week later they released the final episode, which
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: is almost three hours long.
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a long one.
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of content in this. But if you
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: have been keeping up with Stranger Things, this season really
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: did a nice job wrapping things up. It ends in
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: a pretty satisfying way. I think they did a good
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: job with it. It's obviously been going on for some time,
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: like the kids are now fully in their twenties and
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: when they started their actual kids. Anyway, it's fun to watch.
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: I think, like I said, it feels satisfying. It is
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: out now on Netflix. I had to go back and
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: watch them recaps because it's been a while since I've
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: seen them. But man, what a fun series. It was.
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: Like I started actually rewatching the first season thinking I'd
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: kind of go back through and watch them all, and
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: I was like, man, this, I mean the first season
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: really is so so good. Yeah, and I think the
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: other ones are also very high quality. I just again,
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: my memory of them, this has been so many years
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: since they started releasing them, is not as strong. So anyway,
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: I really enjoyed it. I think a lot of people
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: who haven't seen it already will enjoy it if you
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: were already watching the previous seasons. Definitely a strong recommend
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: if you have never seen Stranger Things but you're curious.
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: I think it's a good show, and I think it's
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: tough to end shows very well and have it feel satisfying.
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: But I think they've accomplished that.
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: I think they nailed it. I think they suck the landing.
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: Everybody's so mad about it. I think they stuck the landing.
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: There's no other way that I could think that they
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: would end it that wouldn't match the vibe of the show.
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, there are two characters I would have
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: loved to have seen a more clear resolution for. But like,
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: it didn't leave in a place that had me feeling
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: like it wasn't adequate, Like it felt okay. And it's
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: like all stories have an arbitrary end point. Stephen King
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: points this out a lot, like, you know, at some
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: point you just kind of got to end it, and
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: whether or not it feels like it ties up everything,
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: it might not necessarily, and that's just how stories go sometimes,
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: and I think that this one tied up most things
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: pretty well. I can understand some people being frustrated by
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: like some of the sacrifices that happen, but again, if
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: there are no stakes, then like it doesn't feel like
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: it was really worth it. So like they had to
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: have some they had to have the steaks be a
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: little bit real, and they were yeah, yeah, So anyway
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: it paid off.
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: I loved it.
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: I cried great, Yeah, it's great. All right. So that's
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: the Last Night of the Earth Poems by Charles Bakowski
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: and Stranger Things season five on Netflix, And I guess
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: just the show broadly speaking, but I think that we'll
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: do it for recommendations. So I think we're about ready
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: to close this one out. As I said, thank you
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: to everyone for listening. Thank you, Shane, anything I forgetting
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: or anything you like to add before we say goodbye.
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: No, I think that's it all right.
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: Then see you all next week, next week, next week.
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: This is Abraham.
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: We're a bakery now and this is a shame.
• 51:08
  Speaker 3: We're out Yep, you've been listening to Why We Do
• 52:04
  Speaker 3: What We Do. You can learn more about this and
• 52:07
  Speaker 3: other episodes by going to WWDWWD podcast dot com. Thanks
• 52:12
  Speaker 3: for listening, and we hope you have an awesome day.