Latest / FUTURE OF XYZ / Future of Different | John Roescher | S7 E15

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Future of Different | John Roescher | S7 E15 · FUTURE OF XYZ

• 00:00:04:00 - 00:00:15:14 Speaker 1 Hello and welcome to this week's episode of Future of XYZ. Today with us is John Roescher. John, I didn't even ask you if I pronounce your last name correctly. Is that how you say it? 00:00:15:16 - 00:00:17:07 Speaker 2 Almost. Roescher. 00:00:17:09 - 00:00:40:18 Speaker 1 Roescher. John Roescher is the CEO of Raw Materials. Raw Materials, emerged from another digital design firm called Handsome that he had launched in January of 2012, and Raw Materials, which was in 2020 for one of DEA and ads Design Agency of the year, which is pretty impressive for a firm that started the year before. 00:00:40:18 - 00:00:42:17 Speaker 1 So congratulations on that. 00:00:42:19 - 00:00:45:02 Speaker 2 Thank you. It's been fun. 00:00:45:04 - 00:01:09:23 Speaker 1 I'm sure. And you guys, call yourselves an unusual design company. You currently work with both early stage startups as well as established brands like Meta and Peacock and JP Morgan Chase and 7-Eleven. some really big names there. but you, yourself. And I think this sets up the context of our conversation on the future of different, which many people are probably wondering what this is going to be. 00:01:10:00 - 00:01:33:00 Speaker 1 and to some degree, myself included. which I, I love, that's rare. but you're really passionate about technology and dedicated to fostering, creativity in addition to that technology to advance various fields and industries. so I'm really excited for that as the context for this conversation and of course, for anyone watching or listening, John. 00:01:33:00 - 00:01:51:12 Speaker 1 And Raw Materials are based in, Austin, Texas. So let's start as we start every episode of future of X, Y, Z with getting to the definition. so in the context of today's conversation, how do we define different? 00:01:51:14 - 00:02:14:14 Speaker 2 Well, different is the opposite of the same. Right. So I think I think in this idea of different you're able to communicate what is what is intended by design. and so design is, is aiming to change the state of something. You can make a thing. you can change a thing. You can change the way a system works. 00:02:14:14 - 00:02:43:06 Speaker 2 You can make a new tool or toy. and design is aiming to, to, to make things different. I think that, both from a, from a strategic perspective, I like to say that when everything is, is the same, different is the greatest opportunity. So I think even we talk about humans, we like things that are different where we're attracted to to novelty. 00:02:43:08 - 00:02:53:06 Speaker 2 we're attracted to things that stand out. and, and I think that, you know, bringing it back to design, I think that's the power of the design has. 00:02:53:08 - 00:03:24:00 Speaker 1 The dictionary when I looked it up. John says different is either not the same as another or each other. Meaning it's unlike in nature, in form or in quality or. And of course, the dictionary always gives you basically synonyms, distinct or separate. those are two a little bit different things. I think the unlike in nature form or quality is what you were describing, but distinct or separate is is something else. 00:03:24:01 - 00:03:27:22 Speaker 1 Does this resonate and if so, why or why not? 00:03:27:24 - 00:03:50:11 Speaker 2 Yeah it does. It does resonate I think. I think for one, nothing. No one. I mean, certainly people and we understand this. Right? But no one thing is ever the same than anything else. I think no one thing is, is the same as it ever was before either. Just, the arrow of time affects the state of things. 00:03:50:13 - 00:04:11:05 Speaker 2 And so I think whether we're talking in the business context or in the self context as a human, I think understanding that difference, that distinctiveness, distinctiveness, and really leaning into that, whether you're trying to help yourself again or you're trying to help a business or whatever you're trying to do, I think that I think the answer is always in that. 00:04:11:05 - 00:04:20:19 Speaker 2 So yes, I do agree with that definition and that distinction. and I think that that one is probably where the most power is. 00:04:20:21 - 00:04:46:07 Speaker 1 It's if we're going to come to power, and power of difference a lot, I think because we came to this topic of exploration, I mean, for people who are regular watchers or listeners or subscribers, a Future of XYZ, you may know that in preparation for these conversations, the guests and I always have a conversation. Sometimes it's fairly obvious, sometimes it's not really obvious what the topic of their expertise and passion and interest is going to be. 00:04:46:09 - 00:05:14:18 Speaker 1 And John, you and I could have had lots of different conversations today. And we land on the, you know, the future of different I think, largely because this was an exploration, of your work and your approach to things. I think your agency, you know, Raw Materials describes itself as quote unquote bringing together bold and ambitious company leaders and the best creative talent in the world to design and build products founded on the power of difference. 00:05:14:20 - 00:05:24:04 Speaker 1 You just talked about it a little bit in the design context because you're a design agency, but go a little further. Talk about like how you came to that. 00:05:24:06 - 00:05:58:20 Speaker 2 Well, simply, we were we were discovering myself and, I knew other people that had started the company was, Pablo Marquez, Jennifer Allen, we’re looking around, both, like I say, internally, at what we as individuals wanted to do kind of given ourself this, this blank check of carte blanche and let's, let's build a company that we think should exist in the way it should exist with full permission to do what we think should exist with our skill sets and the way we want to contribute to the world. 00:05:58:22 - 00:06:37:20 Speaker 2 So that was a and very internal introspective look at things. and within that we said, well, we want to make great things. We want to make things that are better than what existed before. and then which is where a different comes in. because in order to be better, you've got to be different. And, and then we looked externally and said, well, there is this field that we grew up in, and then we spent our careers working so hard in this field of design, had largely way more than we were comfortable has had its, as I call it, has it had its soul sucked out of it, had the creativity 00:06:37:20 - 00:07:02:03 Speaker 2 sucked out of it, and design, which is the biggest, you know, source of making things for this world, had turned into this programmatic, systematic, formulaic, just paint by numbers, just get it out there and scale it, make it work faster, faster, faster, cheaper, cheaper, cheaper. And that's where design was, had had headed. And so as we looked around, we saw sameness everywhere. 00:07:02:05 - 00:07:11:22 Speaker 2 And we wanted to make some make make the world better by making things, putting things out into the world that were better. And there's different right there. That's that's where it came from. 00:07:11:24 - 00:07:34:09 Speaker 1 And I mean, what you're describing then is, I guess, about creativity. And it matters because it's about creativity. And in a world that kind of, I mean, I, I love the color by numbers statement because I've, I've said I, I stopped on the marketing track because it became color by numbers. Right? I mean, all this performance marketing is not brand building, right? 00:07:34:09 - 00:07:54:18 Speaker 1 It's, it's a very different thing. And and somehow it started getting optimized for efficiency versus creativity. and I think you really lost the soul of something in branding. that's very fundamental. So in your opinion, what you've just described is, is different in some ways about creativity. 00:07:54:20 - 00:08:21:08 Speaker 2 100%. I think different, creativity is how you create something that is different and, and different because it's better. I think that my, my definition of creativity is, is kind of novel and appropriate, you know, the ability to create something that is both novel, inappropriate and to the maximum degrees of both. and so I think that novelty, is, is key to that. 00:08:21:08 - 00:08:46:11 Speaker 2 And I think that's at the end of the day, I think that's the superpower that humans have. we can imagine a thing that doesn't exist. and then we can evaluate, you know, the design you kind of imagine and you create some criteria, you imagine things that might live up to those criteria, and then you can evaluate, all the different ways you want to evaluate how much it does live up to that criteria and say, that's pretty good. 00:08:46:13 - 00:09:13:23 Speaker 2 What if it was better? And then you go do that process? I mean, that's design, right? But that's the creative process within design. And so I think creativity is, you know, I think I think difference is the strategy, to, to create something that's successful at whatever you want it to be successful, that and creativity is, is the means to the end is the thing that you use to create something that's different. 00:09:14:00 - 00:09:19:24 Speaker 2 and that, that that's, different because it's better or, and hopefully the best. 00:09:20:01 - 00:09:39:18 Speaker 1 I want to talk, I mean, there's so many good threads I can always pull on, but there was a lot in that. John, I I'm curious. We're kind of two pieces here. Like in reading your bio. it says that you became enamored of technology early on after discovering the power of the internet to create and connect the world. 00:09:39:20 - 00:09:54:24 Speaker 1 And you were teaching yourself to code at a young age. Was there something very specific about technology and specifically the internet that fueled your imagination and and got you to this place? 00:09:55:01 - 00:10:17:00 Speaker 2 Well, yeah, probably. So. I mean, I think at the very least at that time, which was, kind of late 90s, very late nine, you know, 2000 timeframe. It was very new. and so it had that novelty built in already. It was magic. you know, we had never seen anything like it. It was making its way into the home. 00:10:17:02 - 00:10:45:09 Speaker 2 And then I think on top of that, it's a medium that is, arguably or relatively easy to create on. not that it's not that it's harder necessarily to, to spin a ball. you can do that. Probably a bit easier, maybe, but to create greatness within a body of work and pottery is a lot of work. 00:10:45:11 - 00:11:05:01 Speaker 2 and it has this permanent, hard kind of nature to it. Whereas the internet, you could make some JPEGs or some GIFs, write some code, put it up on whatever hosting back in the day there was and the world could see it and it could interact with it. And that was and just in my, my opinion at the time, much more easy. 00:11:05:01 - 00:11:20:04 Speaker 2 I just found it. It was a, it was, an easy it was novel, it was magical. And it was actually a relatively easy outlet for that. and, you know, I guess in hindsight, right time. Right place, because it ended up being a pretty big deal. 00:11:20:06 - 00:11:41:13 Speaker 1 yeah. Just a little bit of a big deal. in that same time frame that you're talking about, Apple had a very iconic tagline which ran from, I think, 97 to 2002. I it's funny because I look that up because I was like, when did they stop using that? I feel like, you know, for those of us who grew up in that, it feels like that it still used. 00:11:41:13 - 00:12:07:12 Speaker 1 I mean, when I think of Apple, but it wasn't it was the Think Different campaign tagline. And it was during their successful comeback under Steve Jobs. and that tagline really was about encouraging customers to embrace unconventional thinking and challenge the status quo. Much like, you know, Apple's innovative ethos suggested it was at that time. Do you think that that tagline in these formative years of your life, I have no idea. 00:12:07:12 - 00:12:25:11 Speaker 1 If you were an Apple guy or not, or if you are still design would suggest probably. But do you think that had any role in your embrace either of technology, of becoming a brand, you know, a design guy or even more of like celebrating different? The the reason we're having this conversation today. 00:12:25:13 - 00:12:51:10 Speaker 2 I haven't thought about it in such direct terms, but I would say so. Yes. You know, I think at the very least indirect. I think there was a vision there that the internet, the computing and the internet could be for more than just crunching numbers faster. I mean, that's what a computer is and does. It's what it was always, ever meant to be until some people and not only Steve Jobs, but certainly Steve Jobs saw it as a tool to help us. 00:12:51:10 - 00:13:14:00 Speaker 2 I would use this like a bicycle for the mind, I think, or something like that. Now, it was a it was a tool. Not not so that we could do math faster, but so that we could be creative. We was a tool to to kind of get creativity out and to make things that that moved people emotionally. And then of course, if you move people emotionally, you can monetize that. 00:13:14:00 - 00:13:31:05 Speaker 2 So it is a tool for business and productivity and things like that. But I think coming at it from a much more human perspective, which, you know, humans are creative beings, I think made a lot of sense. And I'm sure it did inspire me. Yeah. 00:13:31:07 - 00:13:35:18 Speaker 1 You were... 00:13:35:20 - 00:14:01:06 Speaker 1 You were a marine, before you were a designer, or maybe in between. Or you always were a designer, and you just happened to be a marine in active duty for a period of time. around the same era. Do you think that that experience helped shape and inform your appreciation, both of creativity and perhaps also of this idea of celebrating difference? 00:14:01:06 - 00:14:04:20 Speaker 1 And if so, I I'm really curious how. 00:14:04:22 - 00:14:26:07 Speaker 2 It's a that's a great question. No one's ever asked me that before. I think they usually ask the the veteran the marine experience question in the context of just business, are you a better business person? And that's a fine question, but I like I like the question you've asked. First of all, I think the why I did that has a lot to do, not only but a lot to do with difference. 00:14:26:07 - 00:14:56:13 Speaker 2 I'm naturally drawn to things that are adventurous and different and interesting, and that was very different and adventurous and interesting to me. It was just a big, bold leap. I think similarly, I think it gave me that experience, gave me the ability to be patient and brave during times of ambiguity, uncertainty, chaos. And I think that's an important part of the creative process. 00:14:56:15 - 00:15:18:22 Speaker 2 and, my role is always been in enabling creative talent to make great things. and so I'm typically, I hate to put it like this, but I'm typically the person with the eyes on the, on the numbers in the situation and the fear that creeps in of, I don't know if we're going to make it on time. 00:15:19:03 - 00:15:43:16 Speaker 2 We're still exploring. We need to go further. We need to continue to hold our breath. The fear of that. I'm able to endure a bit more, perhaps, than people who come at it from a straight perspective. And that could be because of my experience. And I think that I think that's very important in difference. You know, I think that the ability to the path of least resistance is not difference. 00:15:43:18 - 00:16:04:06 Speaker 2 The of the path of least resistance is taking what's always worked and using that, doing that, maybe doing it a little bit better, just a little optimize it here and there. Take the status quo, put a little spin on it. That's it. That's not difference. and so it's the it's the path of most resistance that gets you to something that's different and powerful. 00:16:04:08 - 00:16:18:17 Speaker 2 And that's a scary thing. and I think that, my experience in the military, I, you know, as, as kind of loosely related to that sounds, I think that that's much more applicable than just a pure business question. 00:16:18:19 - 00:16:42:22 Speaker 1 I love the answer. and I appreciate your going there. I've, I've had the opportunity in my career to work with a couple of, former active duty service members. And I have to say, yes, good business people, but I, I worked in one highly toxic situation with a former black, Black Hawk helicopter pilot. And, I remember it being like, how do you do this? 00:16:42:22 - 00:16:56:05 Speaker 1 And I looked at him and I just started laughing, and I said, I'm going to answer my own question. I guess every day you're not getting shot at. It's like an easy day, you know? But it is like the skills of, veterans is, really quite remarkable and not to be underrated on all sorts of different levels. 00:16:56:05 - 00:17:32:23 Speaker 1 So thanks for sharing that experience, John. you know, we're we're a podcast that's presented by iF Design. I happen to be obviously the managing director in the U.S of iF Design, and we host the iF Design award. I don't usually talk about iF Design in the context of this, this podcast, but it's interesting to me because one of the criteria, the jury criteria across nine design disciplines and now 93 categories of design with entrants from 70 plus countries, right, is we have idea, form and function which are classic design crit questions. 00:17:33:04 - 00:18:13:18 Speaker 1 We recently as of 2024 took sustainability. It's 20% of the score now. So social environmental criteria. But they the fifth 20% is differentiation and differentiation in the context of the iF Design award, really forces our participants to explain and our jurors to assess how, you know, how thing, how their entry is differentiated, whether through its idea, whether through its, you know, materiality, its design itself, its execution, its go to market, its target audience, it's pricing like it's commercial, it's it's design. 00:18:13:18 - 00:18:35:14 Speaker 1 It's all of the things. Right. And the dictionary again, I went to to understand and it's like, you know, differentiation is the act of showing or finding difference between things that are comparable between something and something. And the end. It's to me as a brand person, it's always about offering a unique value proposition. You know, in between something in something, right. 00:18:35:17 - 00:18:55:15 Speaker 1 As you said, the path of least resistance is incremental change. Right? Is not going outside. The status quo is not what Apple wanted with the thing different. It's it's just kind of keeping on keeping on. How do you differentiate for your clients as an agency and an award winning agency? 00:18:55:17 - 00:18:57:23 Speaker 2 How do we differentiate ourselves or help them different. 00:18:58:00 - 00:19:02:03 Speaker 1 Help them differentiate themselves? 00:19:02:05 - 00:19:31:17 Speaker 2 As so a couple of things there, my my favorite, my favorite quote in relating in relation to all this work is, by Dolly Parton. And she said, figure out who you are and do it on purpose. And I think that to me is the, the, the mantra for strategy. and, and that's how we help our clients. 00:19:31:19 - 00:19:58:04 Speaker 2 I think that's, it's, it's interesting trying to do that for a large established brand. and the difference between that and helping to do that for a startup, which we work, we work with both. I think that the I like to think that, that the most creative moment a company ever experienced was when it was first conceived, probably by a founder. 00:19:58:06 - 00:20:23:14 Speaker 2 there was that things should be things should be different. Is that kind of moment right. and and so whether that's a big global, the world needs to be better or supply chain could be tweaked or there's just this state like things need to be different. That's that moment that a founder had. and then from every point there, there from then on is how do I realize that? 00:20:23:16 - 00:20:47:18 Speaker 2 How do I make it real? and that's a creative process in itself, but it tends to degrade the original idea a little bit. And then you have to go into how do I scale it? How do I produce it, scale it, optimize it, sell it. and all of that tends to degrade and take you away from the original core idea. 00:20:47:20 - 00:21:08:23 Speaker 2 and so our work in, in, in strategy and creative in design work, is to try to understand the essence of what? Of what you were trying to do different, and then pull that out, realize it, bring that to life, bring it to the modern day, whatever it might be, but not lose sight of that. And I think it's a pretty simple thing, actually. 00:21:08:23 - 00:21:22:13 Speaker 2 But there's so much there, so much power in that, that if we can just go find that thing, pull it right to the front and then crafted and realize it, I think that's the, that's the biggest thing. 00:21:22:15 - 00:21:47:02 Speaker 1 I love that description. And it makes a lot of sense to me. And and the Dolly Parton quote is, is perfect. Perfectly sums it up. do you, however, feel that differentiation, especially in a world where commodity is, you know, also wins or second mover advantage is real, etc., right? Do you feel differentiation is both always possible and also always meaningful? 00:21:47:04 - 00:22:14:05 Speaker 2 Yes, I do, I do, yeah, yeah. yeah. I mean, I think the most authentic thing and, and I think that authenticity and and just being real, is, is always going to be the most powerful thing. I think there's, there's ways to do that. And, you know, if you're a second mover, for example, there are ways to do that, that don't have to be self-deprecating. 00:22:14:05 - 00:22:32:02 Speaker 2 You can call yourself the second mover or that that might work. People might find that cute. but I think that. Yeah, I think the short answer to your question is yes. I think it's always possible. And I think it's always valuable. That's it's just it might not be easy. but if it's hard, then it's probably worth doing. 00:22:32:02 - 00:22:51:12 Speaker 2 If it's hard, then it's probably different. Because back to the point of path of least resistance is what everyone else is going to do. If you put the hard work into figuring out how to be authentic, how to be different and differentiate, especially when it's hard, then I think there's gold there. I think it's the those I back to. 00:22:51:12 - 00:23:13:12 Speaker 2 I said in the beginning, when everything is the same, different is the greatest opportunity. It is the most powerful thing you have. And so again, I'm repeating myself, but, if it's hard to do, therefore then you should really investigate that. You should really follow and pursue that, because then it means that, that it's it's less likely that other people are doing it. 00:23:13:14 - 00:23:35:17 Speaker 1 Well, I'm going to I'm going to quote, another iconic, music person, personality, someone we lost way too young again coming back. We seem to be in this, like, late 90s, dance here. but Kurt Cobain famously said, they laugh at me because I'm different. I laugh at them because they're all the same, which I love. 00:23:35:17 - 00:23:57:19 Speaker 1 And that's, of course, about authenticity and such. I want to I mean, this may be about creativity and it may be about design, and it may be, you know, kind of about all sorts of things, John. But I'm the dance between standing out and fitting in is a complicated one. When you start talking about people and society and roles and norms and all of this kind of thing, especially for younger people. 00:23:57:21 - 00:24:25:19 Speaker 1 I'm not sure how many younger people actually listen to future of XYZ, but they're probably a lot of parents and grandparents and aunts and uncles and sisters and brothers listening. I'm curious what advice you'd give to young people about being different or differ and just being just different. The future of different, and, and maybe it's especially true, or maybe it's not especially true for creative young people. 00:24:25:21 - 00:24:47:03 Speaker 2 Well, good. Good question, hard question. I don't know that I'm any, any more than anyone else qualified to answer that, but I, you know, I think that everyone has something. So I think that everyone is is inherently creative. You know, I think this notion that some people are more or less creative, I don't really buy that. 00:24:47:03 - 00:25:07:23 Speaker 2 I think that people have a human amount of creativity, and then you have a whole bunch of other things that get layered on that good and bad that elevate it. For some people, diminish it for other people, whatever. but I think that everyone has that within them. So everyone has the ability to make things different for the world, for themselves and for others, for the world. 00:25:08:00 - 00:25:37:10 Speaker 2 And so I think it's just about figuring out what that is for you. and, you know, I think that can help you, that that's not quite your question, you know, but I think thinking about things like that can help you rise above a question of comparing yourself to other people. if you kind of think about, well, what what is my way to create and make a difference and no one's saying it has to be huge. 00:25:37:12 - 00:25:52:19 Speaker 2 it's just period, you know, brush the sidewalk off. It's like make make the world a little bit better. It'll make the world a little bit different as a as a true expression of yourself. if you figure out how to do that or what, that is the best way for you to do that. And that can change over time in your life. 00:25:52:19 - 00:26:09:07 Speaker 2 And I, I only figured it out a few years ago, which is why Raw Materials exist now. and I think that will just completely change the conversation inside your head that has you comparing yourself to other people and has you comparing yourself to yourself and the way you want to make an impact. I don't know if that really helps, but that that's how I think it. 00:26:09:10 - 00:26:10:23 Speaker 2 It's certainly helped me a lot. 00:26:11:00 - 00:26:29:06 Speaker 1 I think it's I think it's all helpful and it's funny. It's never come up in, I mean, sometimes I in these conversations, you ask like, well, what's the future of like the talent development look like on such and such topic? But there's never been a topic that aligns and allows itself so well for like, kind of like thinking about younger people to, to kind of embrace an idea. 00:26:29:06 - 00:27:05:16 Speaker 1 So I it was fun. last couple of questions. I and these are two that I always ask everyone. John. And it's maybe a little tricky in this case if people watching or listening to future of X, Y, Z today and the Future of Difference want to of different, want to learn more? Are there like 1 or 2 iconic references or experiences or works of art or something that you think really kind of like sum up like different, that you want to refer people to? 00:27:05:18 - 00:27:30:18 Speaker 2 Yes. I'm, I've been thinking a lot about this. well, it's in the news a lot lately, and now we know why. that Jony Ive has been, Who was the. The designer for Apple for a long time, has been more vocal and being doing more interviews. And as of, I think last week we found out why, with the news of, of OpenAI acquiring him and his company. 00:27:30:20 - 00:27:55:23 Speaker 2 but even but but leading up to that, he had more public appearances and he than he has in a long time. And he was being interviewed by Patrick Collison, who's the founder and CEO of, of, stripe. and so a couple of things. I find it very interesting that the founder and CEO of, of a of a payments platform for web developers to integrate into their websites is getting this amount of design attention. 00:27:55:23 - 00:28:17:21 Speaker 2 I think that's just fantastic. So go take a look at stripe just here. I the way I would classify that, it kind of gives a good answer. Your question is it's clearly an unnecessary and an unreasonable amount of care and craft and love put into the design of Stripe's brand and all of their touchpoints and products and tools. 00:28:17:23 - 00:28:37:14 Speaker 2 That has to have a lot to do with why they're such a valuable company. in such a loved company. I think that unnecessary level, that again, path of least resistance. Right. Like the different they stand apart from everyone else in their field. they did from the beginning, and now they do market cap wise and success wise. 00:28:37:14 - 00:28:44:18 Speaker 1 So brand and design usually are like the, intangible assets of a company's market capitalization. So that totally makes sense. 00:28:44:20 - 00:29:12:11 Speaker 2 And he's up front, right. And then and then he's up front about that and he's leaning in, and so he interviews Jony Ive. So two references in one stripe at all. but then this conversation with Jony Ive was talking about and just this idea that, you know, as a species, we have the ability to make things great, to make things better than what they would naturally be. 00:29:12:13 - 00:29:32:23 Speaker 2 and if you don't do that, it's kind of like you don't think you use the word disgrace. I don't know that you buy a softer word, but but we deserve for everyone who's making something to to put the effort and love and attention into making it great. And I think that as a as a comment, as a sentiment, he said it better than I did. 00:29:32:23 - 00:29:53:07 Speaker 2 And he's got a great accent. And, it's a really well done interview. I would go listen to that. and the ideas that he, that he puts forward as to why he has done and is doing what he does, it comes from such a strong and heartfelt place. And I think it really aligns close with, with humanity and, and creativity. 00:29:53:07 - 00:29:57:18 Speaker 2 And so I would I would look at that and then I would also just use stripe as an example. 00:29:57:20 - 00:30:12:10 Speaker 1 that's super cool. Thank you for that. Okay, John, as we wrap up, final question, what is your greatest hope 25 years in the future? So 2050. So crazy for the future of different. 00:30:12:12 - 00:30:36:23 Speaker 2 I hope that humans are still primarily making things from their own ideas through to their own hands. And, that we haven't outsourced our soul completely to machines. and, yeah, I think a lot of things have to go right for that statement to be true. And so I'll put that there. We'll check back in. 00:30:37:03 - 00:30:53:01 Speaker 1 We'll check back in in 2050 and hopefully a lot before that, John. John Roescher, thank you. CEO of Raw Materials based in Austin, Texas. Thank you for this, inspiring, and intriguing conversation about the future of different today on Future of XYZ. 00:30:53:03 - 00:30:55:02 Speaker 2 Thanks, Lisa. This was fun. 00:30:55:04 - 00:31:18:16 Speaker 1 for everyone watching. you can also leave us a five star review and subscribe anywhere you get your favorite podcasts. And if you're listening and you didn't know, you can watch these interviews. They're available on YouTube. check out Future of XYZ, or iFDesign.com/xyz to get all of the links and latest episodes, social media handles and all the rest of it. 00:31:18:22 - 00:31:23:24 Speaker 1 Thank you for tuning in. John, thank you again and we will see you in two weeks.